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#and i watched tfa independent from fandom
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You're Wrong About Steve (Part 1): Stucky
When I first realized that people shipped Steve and Bucky, I was surprised but went with it. Due to how passionate people were about Stucky, I thought I missed something. Initially, I didn't brush off or dismiss Stucky.
However, after I re-watched the movies, paying close attention to any Steve and Bucky scenes, and listening to various arguments as to why they're canon, I'm sorry, but Stucky is purely a Fanon ship.
And that's fine.
I went from passively supporting the ship to outright hating it. It has nothing to do with people shipping it, but rather the rabidness of the fanbase and their insistence that Stucky is canon. So much so that they harass others about it, accuse others of being homophobic, swing between casual and blatant misogyny, and sum Steve up as only being who he is due to Bucky. Let's not get started on them using random terms to sound deep and meaningful without making an actual point.
In TFA, shippers claim that Steve became the man he is solely because he wanted to save Bucky. Everyone else he saved was a happy coincidence. Their argument implies that Steve wouldn't have saved the others if Bucky wasn't there or was confirmed to be dead. And some how this is supposed to be romantic and endearing?
Let's get one thing clear: the man Steve "became" already existed. Steve was now taller, stronger, and didn't have every illness known to man hindering him. The serum heightened what was already there. Although Steve was at a low point, Peggy's talk helped get his head back on track. Steve has always had a strong sense of justice. Always.
Even if Bucky had been confirmed dead dead, Steve was going to save those men. Steve didn't risk it all for Bucky, he risked it all for the men who were POWs. It's why he saved them first and asked about Bucky later: although he wanted to save Bucky, he wanted to save EVERYONE. He defied orders for EVERY POW.
This also overlooks the fact that Steve would feel a sense of duty, honor, and obligation to save Bucky. People point out how much Steve got his ass kicked and that Bucky saved him, so why wouldn't Steve want to save someone who protected him as much as he could?
For some reason, people want to diminish a friendship for a romance that isn't there. We talk about how men should show feelings more and care for their friends without it being anything more, and then when this happens, "Oh no, this has to be romantic. There is no way any man can care for his friend that much and not be in love with him."
What kind of shit is that?
And, again, Steve risked his life and freedom for his friend because what happened to his friend was fucked up and unjust. Way to imply that your life only has value if someone wants to fuck you.
Steve literally does not mention Bucky nor do we get any indication that he's thinking about Bucky from the moment he gets chosen for the serum until he finds out that Bucky might be dead. We don't even get a glimpse of him reading a letter or some shit. Hell, or sending one off to Bucky.
But it's canon, right?
Steve is so in love.
Okay, how about after Steve rescues Bucky?
All that's shown is two people who care about each other and have each other's back. Even in the first movie, neither Steve or Bucky are shown joined at the hip. After the rescue, they don't behave any differently. These are two people who have a long history and who care about each other, but the subtext people claim is there is really projection.
For example, Steve goes to his friend in relief after the howling commandoes agree to follow him into battle again, and then Steve proceeds to eye fuck Peggy as Bucky, independently, tries to flirt with her. I've heard this scene interpreted differently and, of course, when you want to prove something you'll distort the source material. There is no subtext here to support either man has romantic feelings for each other.
If people ship based on chemistry, I understand that. However, Steve and Bucky don't have enough meaningful interaction to argue via friendship that they've fallen in love.
People also cite how upset Steve was after Bucky "died" as proof this ship is canon. And it's like, "How dare a man deeply grieve his friend without it being romantic???" I've said it before and I'll say it a million times more: Carol/Maria is PRIME non het shipping material, yet I believe this ship barely exists in the fandom. Two women presumably living together and raising a child together? Maria's reaction to Carol and her grief when explaining how she felt about Carol's disappearance gives grieving life partner vibes.
Nah, let's create a backstory for two attractive white men with chemistry and claim anyone who doesn't see it for the ship and the MCU for not making it canon is homophobic.
Y'all wanna know why Steve was that upset? Both of his parents are dead. He literally had no one in his life that knew him from before he was the serum candidate. No one from his childhood. Bucky was his family. And the way in which Bucky "died"...yeah, Steve's going to be hurt and angry.
How are normal reactions taken as proof of a ship?
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benperorsolo · 4 years
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I just want to present a little counter argument to something you said, that I'm not even sure I agree with, but I'm curious. You said Ben was abused by outside factors out of his control and succumbed, at least partially, to them. And true yes. But I've seen others say that theres been plenty of characters who have endured abuse and manipulation outside their control but still fought for what was good and did not decide to commit awful acts just because they themselves suffered from awfulness
My answer to this is that characters are not real people. Characters who are abused and end up lashing out and committing harm were written to do so, and characters who are abused and end up as heroes were written to do so also. In universe, yes, these characters have agency, but out of universe, which is the only thing that is relevant if you are attempting story criticism of story-as-created-object, they don't.
The writers are choosing what these characters do. JJ and Kasdan were the ones who made Ben kill his father. JJ and Kasdan were also the ones who designated Rey a hero despite her upbringing which easily could have been a villain origin story. Ben Solo did not turn to the dark side without JJ's permission, so to speak. And Rey wasn't a hero without it either. Neither Ben nor Rey made any choice that was not explicitly orchestrated by the writers.
If we are to claim that stories have messages and that they have meaning, we have to look at the story as a series of choices the writer made, and ask ourselves why the writers chose what they did. Blaming a character themselves for their actions is a Watsonian action that is valid for judging a story's internal consistency. But it's useless when you're trying to look outside of the fourth wall and analyze the story as a constructed thing with constructed meaning.
Stories are not history. They did not have to happen the way they did. Nothing about them is inevitable; everything about them is chosen. By someone.
What's the difference between a sympathetic character killing someone and a cardboard villain killing someone? Objectively, nothing. Murder is murder. Yet there is a difference between a sympathetic character and a one-note villain, and that's the amount of empathy the writers deliberately give you for the character. Characters whom the audience can understand and relate to are forgiven for things unrelatable characters rarely are because people root for things they understand. But this degree of empathy is not a result of anything the character independently did; a crime is a crime. It's a result of a writer deliberately giving a character space to explain themselves, so to speak.
Here's the deal: in real life, some people are abused, and they do not come out of it stronger or as better people or as role models. Some people get abused and it damages them to the point where they themselves perpetuate that cycle of violence onto others. Abuse is not for the purpose of building character. Sometimes people are victim and victimizer at the same time. It doesn't invalidate their abuse. This idea that your status as a victim is only valid if you come out of your abuse unscathed, undamaged, and palatable is harmful to literal real people. Many people in this very fandom can attest to this.
And here's the deal: in a fictional world where the writer is a God unto his characters, who can literally decide everything they do or don't do, how the author chooses to contextualize his characters' actions is on him. Rey is not a better person than Ben for resisting the temptation of evil when JJ chose to write Ben as falling to it and Rey as resisting it.
To use this rhetoric that "Rey was raised in the desert and didn't grow up to be a murderer" is entirely missing the point that the reason she didn't was because JJ wrote it so that she didn't. And in so doing, JJ et al created a message where some people are good abuse victims and just naturally get over it and heal in a socially acceptable way and some don't, and those that don't do not deserve our care, or in fact to live. The fact that we are even seeing people make this argument is because JJ wrote a movie that reinforced it.
Ben was written as a victim. From movie one we had Leia telling Han that Snoke was always there behind the scenes, corrupting him. As a literal line in the text. In JJ's own interviews for TFA he said that Ben's status as a villain "isn't about having a bad seed as a kid" and that "someone was watching their (Han and Leia's) boy". These were writing choices that JJ made about Ben's character. Ben and Rey are both victimized by different circumstances. The only difference is that Ben succumbed to child predation while Rey managed to pull herself up by her bootstraps in Desert Hellhole and come out a Hero. Again, because JJ told them to.
And so this leaves us with a nasty story where the writers chose to present the hero and the villain as sympathetic victims of abuse, except only the Good Victim is allowed to live. Ben sacrificed his life because he loved Rey, yes, but also because JJ and CT said so. I cannot analyze a story's meaning by looking at how characters feel who don't know they're in a story. I have to look at it as a piece of content that was produced by people who live in my world, as something that was intended to mean something. And this Good Victim/Bad Victim grossness is what they gave me.
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TROS - What did I even watch? Or how I lived to see the day Disney murdered a prince, left Cinderella alone in the desert, and hoped for the world to rejoice because it was “fun”?
Dear friends, I’ve been here for the spoilers and I’ve even talked with some of you. I went to watch the movie today, with 0 hope of anything except of seeing my baby Ben Solo and Adam’s fenomenal acting (and listening to some good John Williams). 
I knew it would be horrible, but as @nevernerdenoughblog said seeing it makes it even more. Like @clairen45 it felt so wrong. Should I rejoice with a Reylo kiss that Rey gave but seconds later didn’t even cry over Ben’s dead body? I refuse to acknowledge this characterization of Rey. She was the only one that ever believed in Ben Solo, she shipped herself to make him know he was loved and wanted and to help him. Where was this Rey in this movie?
I am sorry guys (especially for the tagging) but I need to write this out or it will eat me and you guys are the few ones that relate to my pain. You know what really hurt me the most in all this? Toxic masculinity disguised as feminism.
1) FAREWELL HEROINE’S JOURNEY
They trashed the Heroine’s Journey. They murdered it and spit in its face. JJ Abrams simply decided that the Heroine’s Journey (done in act 1/ep. VII and act 2/ep. VIII) was not cutting anymore and decided to send Rey on a Hero’s Journey (ep. IX only, new 1st, 2nd and 3rd act altogether), where she has become this almost toxic masculine fighter under Leia’s training  — Badass girl? Yes. Full of anger? Yes. Logical? Yes. Connected to anything? No, not even herself, she kept on the run, afraid. In search of the Jedi detachment? Yes. —, only to send her happilly off to a desert planet in the end of her journey and finishing with her alone talking with an old lady.
Which remind us of the start of TFA, meaning she has comeback to what? Luke didn’t even comeback to that “home” in Tatooine the end of his Hero’s Journey? So she went to a place of death to what? This is a slap on the face of the Heroine’s Journey. This is how toxic masculinity corrupts and interrupts the most uncomfortable (to psychologically unhealthy bystanders) and fundamental (to the woman herself) phase of Heroine’s Journey: You want love, family, a partnership, connection, nurturing or progeny? That is weak, it is foolish. You need to fight, to conquer, to take, take and take. Otherwise you won’t be strong or independent.
REALLY???????????
I AM CRYING! WHY? WHY? WHY? Daisy, are you really seriously satisfied with this ending? Because REY DESERVED BETTER. 
BTW, BEN SOLO DESERVED BETTER! The true feminist of this story DESERVED SO MUCH BETTER! ADAM DRIVER DESERVED SO MUCH BETTER! He always respect the director’s view, does his best to accomplish it and brings his best acting to the table. The only saving grace in the whole movie to me was Ben’s arc because 1) Adam was doing it and 2) He honored his character. Man he deserved so much better!!!!!
I’m not even going to repeat what everyone already said about where is George Lucas’ Fairytale Story, because you guys said it all. But I have a beef with Disney executive decisions:
2) WALT DISNEY - HOW I WISH WALT WAS ALIVE
Walt Disney. Much have been criticized concerning his choices to make HEA in fairytales. But what now? We find balance by wanting our children to grow up to be cynic and seeing the feminine as weak? Unhelpful? Bad? 
“Yo independent women! You need no prince even if you have one. He can compassionately and selfelessly die to save you because he loves you and you can go off, happily, to celebrate with your friends! You don’t mourn his body, oh no. You don’t tell him you love him. You forget him. You go be that cool lonely warrior.”
Excuse me but I can kick ass and have the romantic love life and children I want! I can have both! Because I am a human being and I deserve it. This is not a matter of being a men or women. This is a matter of balancing the feminine and masculine within.
But that is not just it. BEN SOLO DESERVED BETTER! WALT WOULD NEVER, EVER LET A CHARACTER THAT WENT THROUGH ABUSE AND SO MUCH PAIN DIE THE WAY BEN SOLO DID! Is that a Disney movie??????? I mean, what did I just watch????
Walt Disney, the man who promised P.L. Travers, upon knowing who Mr. Banks was to her (her deceased alcoholic father) and what Mary Poppins, her work, meant to her, said:
“George Banks and all he stands for will be saved. Maybe not in life, but in imagination. Because that is what we storytellers do. We restore order with imagination. We instill hope again and again and again.”
THAT IS WHAT STORYTELLERS DO! Like so many fanfic writers in this fandom @nite0wl29, @stargazer1116, @intp-slytherin97, @eleanor-writes-stuff, @postedbygaslight, @raven-maiden, and so many others!! Btw, thank you all!! My vacation starts tomorrow and I’m going to read again all your amazing fics to regain exactly that: HOPE!
What was TROS? Leia and Luke believing in the good in Rey? The whole Jedi Order believing in her? I have nothing against that but why didn’t they believe or help Ben too? Ben didn’t receive any of that love, WHY? What was wrong with him? What did he do?! He was the most selfless of souls, just like his Father and Grandmother. Is this vicntim blaming??? WHY DISNEY, LUCAS FILM and JJ ABRAMS, WHY?!
I used to think people were wrong when they said Disney was only doing SW for money. Because Walt Disney also said and lived by this rule:
“The important thing is the family. If you can keep the family together — and that’s the backbone of our whole business, catering to families — that is what we hope to do.”
SW is about family and I refuse to accept ep. IX as SW. It has all the make up of SW, but it lacks the heart and very essence of it.
As dear @eleanor-writes-stuff said, so much for criticizing Rian Johnson, only to consagrate his work. That man honored the storytelling art and I’ll be forever grateful to him for his touch in SW and for how his writing touched and changed my life. And I know Waltz would have approved too because he also said:
“I prefer to entertain people in the hope that they learn, rather than teach people in the hope they are entertained.”
3) PLOT? WHAT PLOT?
Leia’s feelings for Ben have remained ambiguous, you can both read her as someone who wants her baby boy dead (because her death allows Rey to stab Ben to death if she wants to, when Ben was never going to harm Rey) or not. Actions speak louder than words, and this was the movie when Leia would have the chance to assume the responsability for her mistakes and take action, instead of only claiming she believed her son was alive.
If she clearly wanted to reach Ben, was Maz’s words needed? No, they weren’t. It was exactly because Maz needed to voice it that proved Leia’s actions could be read as ambiguous. Again, actions speak louder than words. Her body only disappeared after Ben’s did too because what? She was expecting him to die so she could collect his soul?
I dearly love Leia’s character but LEIA DESERVED BETTER! CARRIE DESERVED BETTER! In the end I’m not sure what to make of the ST Leia. She could have helped Ben but clearly sent him away to Luke because? What?
Ben Solo get his redemption from his own 2 hands + his father’s memory (not force ghost) + Rey’s confession. In the end he becomes the bride of the monster, only to die right after, in a what? Plot twist?
Finn, who? That was so messed up! Rose? Poor Rose!!! Hux? Oh Hux deserved better too. I was glad to see that Poe matured though and grew in his arc.
I’m also mad and confused about other plot points:
Ben throws his bleeded kyber krystal away because of his father. Okay. Why did no one help him when he cried on the Force to crack his kyber and soul, but Luke Force Ghost appears to catch Rey throwing a lightsaber in an on fire tie fighter?
Rey would turn to the Dark side if she killed Palpatine, right? 5 minutes later she won’t turn to the Dark Side anymore even if she still kills him in anger? Just because the self righteous jedi chose to let Ben get thrown down the abysm by himself but Rey was the Chosen One?
Still on this topic, so she choses to give up her soul so Palpatine uses her body as the vessel of his soul and the legion of siths, in order to save her friends, but she won’t take Ben Solo’s hand, even if she claims she wants to + retaining her body, to do the same?
I think force bonds don’t make much of a difference anymore when one of the parts dies. Ben can die and Rey seems pretty okay?
INTERESTING FACT: Beside me there was a father with his 6 or 7 year old son. The child kept asking what was going on everytime the movie introduced any plot twists or too much information too quickly. When the Reylo kiss came on screen, you know what the kid said? “I told ya!” I wanted to cry when seconds later the boy was claiming now was Rey’s turn to bring Ben back. Children understand the Heroine’s Journey and it doesn’t scare them. It is beautiful like that. The father then had to try and explain to the boy that other things were going on and that no, “that guy was gone”. What have you done people?
4) EPISODE X
I must have a clown face. They lied to us about this movie being “The Rise of Skywalker”. Maybe they lied to us about this being the end of the saga? Considering JJ claims this is fun, happy and hopeful, yeah, I doubt they are making an episode X or ressurecting Ben Solo after throwing in the garbage the Heroine’s Journey. I vaguely remember Adam also said he wasn’t going to appear in another SW.
IF they do announce an ep. X, I’m not watching it unless Ryan or someone like him directs the movie.
I loved to see Han Solo’s memory helping his son. That man trully loved him and it is tragic that he screwed up as a father only because he thought he wasn’t enough to be a good one and that Leia and Luke would know better.
I also loved to see Ben Solo as his father son and grandchild to his grandmother and great grandmother. He was beautiful and I love him and he’ll be forever with me.
I liked the Reylo kiss... but Rey’s actions in this movie have affected me so that it doesn’t feel like they scrapped the surface of making justice to this that could have been the happiest and most balanced of all SW couples.
IT COULD HAVE BEEN EPIC. IT COULD HAVE BEEN GRAND. But it wasn’t.
I’ll forget TROS. YBTOTT is now canon to me, because it is a perfect 3rd act in this trilogy, and @postedbygaslight honors the Heroine’s Journey like few writers have the gut and courage to do. Thank you so much Wayne!
And if anyone had the patience to read this to the end, thank you. I feel it too guys, this was awful and horrible.
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metalbvcky · 3 years
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omg was it the last one??? D: 11, 20, 50!! <3
Oh, spn? Nah, tonight is the episode before the last. (one hour to go, I’m not ready) But Jensen has said it feels like the season final while the last feels like the series final. NOT.PREPARED.AT.ALL. 
11: What’s a stucky fic idea you’ve thought about writing, but haven’t yet?
OMG I’m so glad you asked this one! So I have three longfic ideas, two of which are 100% happening. (first time meeting bakery!au and an established relationship kid!fic) But the one I’ve thought about for quite some time, is a National Treasure (the nicolas cage movie) AU. I just cannot get the thought of Steve stealing the declaration of independence out of my head, and saying it. Bucky would take the ‘role’ of Abigale (the love interest in the movie) and they’d go on an adventure similar to the movie, while also slowly falling in love. The antagonist would work out perfectly too, that being Piece and Rumlow. 
But what’s stopping me is those other two fics and the fact that I’d need to do a lot of research throughout the movie lol. I’ve loved the movie for so long (since 4th grade) but I’d want to incorporate original scenes between inspired scene from the movie. Ahhh one day! 
20: How did you discover stucky?
I don’t know how many of you know, but I used to be a filthy casual (gaming/warcraft reference) when it came to Marvel. Like two months before this whole pandemic went down, I finally decided to start a rewatch since Disney+ was released. It seemed intimidating before, having to watch across multiple streaming services but if you put most of them on one platform, it doesn’t seem as bad. So I did that (I already saw Ironman 1 & 3, OG Avengers, AOU and Cap 3 in the past, CASUALLY. I saw them either in the theater or through family gatherings then went on with my life. That’s how little I knew about Marvel and since then, I had no motivation to catch up. I ignored, and somehow avoided all the endgame spoilers but I instead, spoiled myself by time I got to it. 
So at first I watched all 3 Ironman movies, got myself into some irondad fanfics then moved onto the Cap trilogy. (Though I watched by release order- Also TIH and Thor 2 are both boring as hell, I’d rather sit through endgame, I ain’t kidding you, Least I’d have something to rant/think about lol.) TFA I didn’t start shipping it. When Bucky fell off the train, my Supernatural brain though ‘ahh, he’ll be back!’ (even tho I knew he’s in cap 3, I know, out of order in the past pfft) Also, ghifmaking has made me warm up to that movie, by a lot. 
Cap 2? First off, that movie is near flawless. I think I could watch that and Ironman 3 for the rest of my life. Just gimme National Treasure, Cars 1, and Scooby Doo on Zombie island and I’m good. 
THE GODDAMN FLASHBACK SCENE IS WHAT GOT ME. Not the iconic ‘TTEOTL’ scene, no, no, no, no. Just the scene of Steve starting into the woods with his hands in his pockets, thinking back to Bucky in 1930′s brooklyn. *insert ‘that shit is breahtaking, bro’ gif here* 
So yeah, between TFA and CW (I do still love CW contrary to fandom opinion, but I do agree it feels more like an Avengers movie than anything) my heart was like: that’s you new OTP. 
I watched the rest of the MCU and did a head dive into fanfiction. And now here I am with this blog, making gifs, writing fanfic, and enjoying the fandom with the rest of you wonderful people :D Literally haven’t had this much fun in a fandom since I joined the spnfamily, and that’s saying a lot. So I think I’m shipping these two dorks for...life. Yup. ‘Don’t forget, you’re here forever.’ 
50: What do you love the most about stucky?
AAAAAAHHHHH, so many things!!! 1) The fandom, above all else I think. To hell with canon, we’ll make our own ship by hand. 2) Just how romantic they are, seriously. 3) How their love is stretched across a century and they both come back to life at the exact same time.  
Stucky askgame!!
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tobermoriansass · 4 years
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🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 Gimme them hot takes babes! SW, original, prequel and sequel, marvel stuff, fandom bullshit, fandom bullshit and FREE SPACE
oh my god ok love here we go
1) marvel stuff
my unpopular opinion is that at this point i have no opinion on this franchise anymore except that its bad. 
2) Star Wars, Original & Prequels
…………..look I love these characters but man are stretches of these films just incredibly boring. the pacing in ANH & ROTJ is janky as all hell - there are huge stretches of nothing happening and then huge stretches of repetitive action happening. The prequels are full of fight scenes that go on and on and on. The lightsaber battles are relentless and I find them insufferably boring, not least because they lack the grounded fun and choreography of the swordplay you get in LOTR or like literally any film where the movement around the place is not just the singular duel (duels: fun to read about, not to watch). Literally 2/3rds of the phantom menace is about podracing and its not even like interesting! They managed to make fast cars in SPACE boring as fuck. 
My super salty unpopular opinion is that the people who complain that TLJ’s pacing is bad and that the canto bight section is poorly used have a very romantic view of what the OT & PT films are like 
3) Star Wars, Sequels
I was going to actually stitch these together in a sensible essay but I also have too many unpopular opinions I have been biting my tongue about to reasonably stitch them all together in one essay, and since the fandom is entirely on fire rn, adding a little more gasoline in this niche won’t make a damn difference (also putting it under a cut bc its long af:
Every single issue people whined about in the sequel trilogy as a whole was the result of massive structural issues in TFA, but TFA was a feel good film and people walked away with an emotional high that meant they could ignore simple things such as: 1) storytelling that should have been in the film being relegated to side media, 2) zero worldbuilding regarding the conflict between the resistance and the first order (itself a structural flaw handed down from the original trilogy, tbqh), 3) most of the characters not having arcs or actual character motivations besides “the writer decided they needed to do a thing”, 4) the fact that the characters of colour managed to have even less of an arc than the other already arc-less white characters, 5) the fact that everything about finn’s character arc was dropped in favour of making him obsessed with rey the moment he meets her
Speaking of which, Rey is one of the blandest and most personality-less characters out there and I cannot understand it when people expect me to relate to her character - like I appreciate her as someone’s theoretical girl power fantasy, but man, I have no clue what she wants, what her driving motivations are, what her inner mental landscape is like and how that ties together in giving her something of a “character” of any kind and would rather, any day, take wonder woman as a power fantasy (because you know, she actually has a personality of some kind)
Did not expect TRoS to actually elevate both poe/finn and poe/finn/rey and finn/rey to some kind of squicky level for me, but man, it sure did manage that by putting Rey’s whole force struggle thing front and centre in the most absurd way (good guy: empathizes with her struggle and consequent bad decisions, bad guy: just wants to get the mission done AS THEY SET OUT TO - literally the first 90 minutes of this godforsaken movie). That said I would 100% read the darkfic version where Rey increasingly uses her Force powers to override Poe (sorry guys, did not find the whole “does she do that to us” moment cute or shippy) on Resistance decisions because she’s just tired of dealing with politics instead of doing her special Force stuff
Speaking of TRoS, I think what frustrates me about it (and the attendant lead up media) the most is that it essentially turned the Resistance into the kind of ur-entity representing every single shambolic, milquetoast liberal (and sometimes not even liberal but just not the absolute fascists) political party going “you should vote for us because have you taken a look at the bad guys over there” and then basically not bothering with a manifesto or like even throwing people a tiny bone of promises for a post-election future. This actually kind of makes it highly appropriate to our current political moment but in this direly macabre and funny way
TRoS feels like its a spiteful coda to TLJ because it thematically revokes everything that was even interesting about TLJ and today I have discovered that it specifically went out of its way to give Rose a speech about how its totes ok to use these weapons manufactured and tested on a planet’s innocent inhabitants (LIKE WHAT WAS DONE TO HER HOMEWORLD) because the Resistance is doing it for good, unlike the First Order which is doing it for evil which is like the most meaningless attempt to refute TLJ’s not even very in-depth criticism of the military-industrial complex and just oh my god, first you make Rose worship at the shrine of Rey because I guess you just can’t go without making every single CoC either adore her or be insanely jealous of her, then you reduce her to her cute fanon version who never has rough or harsh edges and then you do this WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS
3) Fandom Bullshit & Fandom Bullshit
Re. the last point: I’m fairly sure now, more than ever, that a lot of the people who lost their minds at TLJ just couldn’t handle it even trying to mildly break lose of the War-Violence-Conquest-Winning model of power fantasy entrenched in the blockbuster format and a lot of it is the result of pretty much no other power fantasies being tabled, for all that we love to talk about how humans inherently want to cooperate and be altruistic to one another - give us a film that suggests that maybe ethics are a little more complicated than Good Guys Good Because Good and Bad Guys Bad Because Bad, or that sometimes good guys do things that are stupid and fail, and everyone loses their minds about how “useless” it is because everything has to be a war game in which we are winning and the other side is not. 
Every single person who posted nonsense about the sequel trilogy being a fairytale and jung and half-assed shit about campbell and the hero’s journey, ft. extreme gender roles and patriarchy dressed up as feminisms has shown their ass as closet trads in some way or the other and you all owe me five dollars for calling this as early as early 2018 
Its always really hilarious to me to see r/eylo shippers clutching pearls about other ships for being Too Awful and a Step Too Far and how dare you ship this person with that person who was so awful to them and its absolutely hilarious to see the ones among them absolutely losing their minds about rose/hux because somehow that’s a bridge too far (as is also, the former finn/rose r/eylo shippers jumping ship here bc of the JB wank and then turning it into just...r/eylo but with rose and hux because i guess anything darker would be too awful)
Conversely: people losing their minds about r/eylo are absolutely hilarious because 99% of the ship is baby’s first enemies-to-lover ship and they are literally the most toothless and blandest of all the enemies-to-lover ships out there, including within the GFFA/SW
People should just stop interacting with media creators on social media about fandom stuff. Just stop. Its not going anywhere good. Lets all live in our own little ecological niches. 
We finished the Ky/lo R/en discourse guys lets move on. I don’t need to know how morally superior you are for finding the white guy boring OR how much you think him getting a happy ending would be feminist. Please for fucks sake lets finish this. 
YOU ARE ALL COWARDS FOR BEING HORRIFIED THAT PALPATINE FUCKS. HE WAS A HOT DARK FUCK PRINCE IN THE DARTH PLAGUEIS NOVEL AND THAT IS THE ONLY EXTENDED CANON THAT COUNTS. 
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violet-sabres · 4 years
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Some quick observations re: TROS and some "reylo"musings (spoilers)
- the editing removed A LOT of emotional pay-offs for so many scenes. The decorations and actors change quickly, a bit randomly - in fact it takes a while before this movie finds its tempo and footing. Something weighty happens and no reflection is allowed even in briefest sketch of a reaction. Next scene. Next scene-
- Poe, Finn, Rose and two new female characters were absolutely robbed. Both by the ungodly pace of this movie (there is much potential for scenes that could mean much much more in the whole storyline. As is, they are discarded as soon as they happen). The bond between Finn and Poe got severed in the beginning with some awkward finnrey moments and strange jealousy (was that what it was???) from Poe. I say either carry out the finnrey thread (which was also beautiful actually, though Finn deserves so much better than how she treats him in TROS...) or finnpoe, something which JJ himself built up. Rose should be given an independent arc with no romance involved, or a love interest of her own.
- Rose's infatuation with Finn is never touched. Rose herself is absolutely erased - she is a statist, providing some dialogue with absolutely no weight behind it. JJ treated her terribly - it was his privilege and responsibility to utilize whatever he got from Johnson as he saw fit; but throwing away her potential only underlines the racist sidelining he did to all characters of colour.
- the heteronormativity I can't understand - Finn and Poe are JJs babies after all (and yeah, I know - shareholders...). Why tease hetero relationships for both and STILL leave even them hanging?? Like, he discarded Rose bc first of all racism, second - Johnson's 'leftovers' I guess? Unacceptable. The lady of Poe's was sketched boldly - but still sketched. Her inclusion wouldn't feel so random if Poe wasn't shown to be this randomly emotional abt her all of a sudden. Why now? It felt a bit forced and this is a shame bc she (and Janah, omg Janah...) is super cool. I'd love to read and see way more about all of them.
- Finn and Janah - wonderful rapport, so much empathy and loyalty, they are wonderful together. I definitely could see them together as well - so many threads to explore! There was so much potential to embed meaningful relationships for Finn into the plot. Janah is one of those that felt quite right but deserved more still. She deserves a story of her own. Not for the first time it is a secondary character of colour who carries so much potential and substance and gets sidelined. I dont mind Kylo content btw - but this series was shown to concentrate on 3 people and a villain. Keep to this proportion or perish I say. They didnt keep them and the movie feels unfairly skewed towards the force dyad of Rey and Ren. Hence, robbed. We were robbed of much of quality content here.
- the implication/suggestion that Finn may be Force sensitive held so much promise. I love Finn and Boyega played him with so much passion and dignity. He grew into leadership without pretense or drama, was competent and knowledgeable about the inner workings of the Fleet and found hope he was struggling for. Honestly the problem here is that his prominence was teased to be greater than the actual time and the weight of scenes he was given. This movie should be longer, scene order less abrupt and random - so the characters that were shown to matter in the first part could matter here as well.
- JEDI FINN please. The potential of it was teased - they should scrap some of the scenes and build those kinds of plot points more thoroughly. Finn's arc should be more - but that doesn't mean Boyega played it any other than magnificently. He got what he was given and made it his. I hate that this still means it was not as much as he and Poe deserved it. Same with Rose.
- galactic generals (*husbands) Poe and Finn. It could be marriage, it should be - Isaac played a man in love. I enjoyed this new romantic angle with the spice smuggler lady as well - but it required more buildup. As it was, it made for an awkward and frankly homophobic ersatz for finnpoe plotline of the first and even second movie. I hate wasting the potential of new characters in the movie, and this is what happened here. Also Poe's smuggling past - no previous setup that felt offensive to many bc of its randomness and no previous grounds in existing media. Felt like unnecessary sensationalism here.
- Rey is complicated here. I didnt like her attitude towards Finn and wished for more appreciation of their own idiosyncracies between them. Finn deserved his love (whether romantic or platonic) to be recognized. It was lacking here.
- I loved the fight scenes, the dialogues with Ren that should begin in TFA if they wished for the romance to be acceptably wet up. Driver is so fucking physical and huge, a bit awkward and very strong. To me it was attractive - but to me Kylo always lacked the threat in him when it came to Rey; I know this isnt so for others and respect that.
- Choreography is super effective here, the body work of Rey and Ren is wonderful.
- lighting, the sith locations were one of my favourites
- the creatures - while in the background, theybwere lovely. They made for lusher world out there.
- Palps was eh. Needed for the ending setup, ultimately fell a bit flat. The twist re his endgame would feel better if the whole scene didnt play this fucking quickly.
- the death (you know whose...) is quick and abrupt, passing fleetingly with no real depth or importance. They are rushing to another scene so quickly they forget that if you love somebody enough to accept them fully, this person's death tends to leave some kind of impression. As it is, Rey is hardly the first character robbed of emotional engagement in TROS.
- sigh. Ren. I love to hate him and hate to enjoy him still. Also feeling like a hypocrite bc would I enjoy him if not for my prefernce for how Driver looks like? Would anyone who I respect a bit more than his most fanatical reylo fans? I have no answer really.
I've never seen a character ripped into shreds from so many angles. For incels and dudebros he is a pussy (a lot of girls I know also mentioned that). He is supposedly not cruel enough, not awesome like Vader, whatever.
For others he is a genocidal criminal, and that he is. You can't sidestep Tuanul or his passivity in front of Star Destroyer wiping out whole planets. He is implicated in this genocide - and that scene where he is supposedly mutely watching it from the distance falls flat if its intention was to show he wasn't entirely behind Hux's agenda. He still never stopped him. So yeah, it is obvious that for many he is absolutely undeserving of any empathy, much less a romance plotline with movie's heroine. Especially when the first scenes setting it up were so messed up.
Now I hate the word reylo and I'd rather choke than call myself that. But I did enjoy their enmity and idk love?? towards each other? It should be plotted more consequently and I believe if JJ didn't muck it in tfa people would be a lot less opposed to the whole villain x heroine thing. Nobody opposes it bc of that - it's the torture bed and it's the "whatever I want" line that made so many recoil. It's the absolute lack of coherence at a time where more self awareness was needed from the director of the very first part in the series.
I believe there is a kind of generational divide on topic of their romance. Youve got gen z "antis" who argue about the abuse (and have a lot of good point more reylos should think hard and long about) - and mostly adult to older women (this includes older milennials also!) who grew up steeped in gothic romanticism that, up to gen z growing up, was a dominant romance paradigm in the West.
Youve got your Wuthering Hills, your Pride and Prejudice and Beauty and the Beast. I hate it. I absolutely abhor it, and the more the reylo fandom hammered their whole relationship from this angle, the more I was distancing myself. I believe the whole genre is steeped in toxic masculinity and yes, you can look at reylo from this angle as well - and I understand that when you saw those scenes from TFA, and didn't feel convinced by entirely paradoxal romance teasers (bc JJ mixed them both in equal measure, and thus killed wide enthusiasm for reylo for good) then what happened in TLJ and TROS must look like the embracing toxic hetero romance in entirety. And to some degree it is - entirely by JJs fault. The other elements that you mightve ignored in tfa suddenly get amplified in tlj, in tros and youre left wondering why the hell Kylo Ren could ever be seen as romanceable?
But the thing is, while the analogy of angry white male pursuing a pure young woman seems fitting, it doesnt work for me here. I also acknowledge that it may be in part bc I'm used to the gothic paradigm, attracted to Driver as Ren and feeling safe and assured that Rey would stay herself despite whatever he wanted from her (and she did in my opinion, she never caved even when she loved him). Kylo is white, and he is aggressive - he is a villain, he tortures and hurts Poe and Finn and plays psychological games with Rey, he shouts a lot and is very physical, which in itself looks threatening.
All those could end up somewhat accepted bc he is a villain - people will accept the consequent villain, or paradoxical one done with self- awareness on side of their creator. JJ was absolutely unaware of what a mess he did I bet - the worst elements that crossed "reylo" off the list for so many people I'd argue were first sown by JJ himself in paradoxical chase of I tease this-now I don't. Here's what I mean.
It was JJ who put Rey on that horizontal torture bed, even when Poe's was upright. It was JJ who had Ren say those gross words abt taking what he wanted. It was also JJ who irreaponsibly and paradoxically played with symbolism normally reserved for gothic princes DESPITE the gross elements he himself planted - the mask going off to reveal a goofy Disney prince, the crouching so as not to scare her, the freaking bridal carry, the humanizing via showing Ren's vulnerability. I actually hated some of those scenes - I loved the face reveal no lie, but what followed was unacceptable. Why style your villain this lush and vulnerable when you're shooting your own foot a few minutes after, with dialogue that had whole groups of young women discard him as trash? Why not polish your villain with more self awareness so that the ground for the romance is understood and cautiously accapted?
So youve got an internally cracked TFA that for some was obviously teasing reylo but for others made it unacceptable forever. This is one hell of a difficult mix to continue with and I believe if JJ was given the 2nd part to work with, perhaps he might be able to somehow work with Ren so that TLJ wouldnt feel like slap to the face to those who saw mostly the worst parts of Ren that JJ himself designed. Perhaps he would also polish the romance teasers or got rid of them altogether, idk. TROS shows that while he was eager to discard anything that Johnson had put into motion, he chose to leave reylo content still. This is really paradoxical to me, today as it was back then.
Now reylo isnt super mainstream - if he got rid of it, it would surely anger a lot of people but also satisfy an equal amount of others. Yet he chose not to and I'd argue it is because he planned for reylo to happen from the beginning, just in a shitty way we first witnessed in the worst scenes of TFA.
I'll also argue another point - if Johnson was given the saga from the beginning, reylo wouldnt be nearly as much hated and regarded as abusive for so many. It is this particular humanization of Kylo that was criticized by so many that would protect the 1st part from that torture bed, and from taking whatever Kylo wanted. As it was, when all this sudden humanity followed JJs paradoxical mess, only opposition could come bc it kind of must - it looked for many as woobifying somebody who was already irredeemable. The irony is that JJ probably never planned for this - maybe he thought he could pull this off, somehow work out the agreement between ugly Kylo and Kylo worthy of Rey. Johnson just put a fat line between TFA and his own vision, and irresponsibly ignored all the ugly heritage that should be better worked on if he ever hoped to rectify JJs paradoxes. He didnt do this and thus the mess.
I dont know if it would ever be possible though. Perhaps theres been a shift in ethics, in aesthetics even, so big that for the gen Z this kind of relationship is unacceptable. I dont see anything bad in this - even if I enjoyed a lot of reylo's potential, there will be better content, better romances done by those kids who despise reylo now as well. Meanwhile I plan to stay on this weird pole stuck deep into my ass between reylo enthusiast and haters bc I cant for shit choose a side fully.
Bc I dont see the abuse this clear cut - but am also unsure how much of it is my cultural baggage, the history of normalizing toxic masculinity etc. I bet it's both to some degree, like with all gothic romance genre, - and that there wouldnt be this whole rift at the heart of tfa without toxic masculinity normalization at all. Without it there would be no torture bed and no threats. And the irony is that Johnson would probably see to that better. But not as good as a woman behind the camera to begin with - if you want a heroine at its heart that is.
Like, you can see JJs initial vision as pretty homogenous - the bed, the words, and ignore all the paradoxical romance symbolism in there. You can also look at it as fractured and absolutely lacking coherence, and fish for the elements youd like to stay in next parts. I welcomed Johnson bc he took the best in Kylo and left JJs mess behind. This is also the very reason youre gonna hate the TLJ if TFA felt coherent for you. Bc you cant ignore that which felt threatening and cruel and very much obvious.
I have no easy recipe at dealing with this saga. I cant throw my weight behind reylo fully, ever, but will cautiously accept the potential it could have should it be more coherently written. I love so much of art and those fics that are in line with my wishes towards how Ren should be done from.the beginning.
When I was considering what to.think abt all that, back in the beginning, I didnt want for Rey to cater to emotional demands and baggage of an aggressive male, and I believe she actually doesnt - time and time again she asserts herself, maybe messily but she has the right to her anger and pain so the messy it has to be. She is shown to hope for him becoming better - and isnt manipulated or groomed to do so, and if loneliness was the only reason to stick to him then any other person would suffice, which isnt the case. She is loyal to the cause to the end and happily carries on despite Ren dying, even if it's clear she loved him. She is her own woman and the magnitude of his emotions, the physicality of his behaviour hardly influence her - she neither cowers before Kylo nor caters to him, ever. I love her for this, actually.
So there you have it, my messy thoughts on both TROS and 'reylo' dynamics. I cant say Im satisfied with both. There could be more, Ren could be fleshed out better in the beginning. The potential of so many characters was left undeveloped. I dont feel satiafaction even with elements I loved abt reylo bc there is no counterpart in other aspects I hoped to see developed. I wanted Rey to have more time with Finn, for Finn to have more time with Poe, for Rose to matter in tros as well. I wanted more of Rey and Leia, and for Ren to have more coherence to his character. Ultimately I got crumbs and some bits unable to be stomached.
Go and watch tros, stay in the place of engaging with this series that feels best to you, closest to your needs abd perceptions. Tros will not satisfy anyone in full, also bc of editing and the pacing - which is terrible. Reylo will either frustrate you or frustrate you for entirely different reasons. Dont take JJs shit, dont take Johnson's. Take from the saga whatever works for you.
I dont think it's possible to fully embrace reylo, without reservations. There are grounds for the so called antis to point out the toxic masculinity and potential for abuse. There are tropes suggesting romance despite this still, all in just TFA. It was a mess from the very beginning and it's normal people took sides.
I'm just glad it's finally over.
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dgcatanisiri · 4 years
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So, note that I’m writing this prior to the official release of The Rise of Skywalker, and have not sought out spoilers. I’m just going off of other people having non-spoilerish reactions.
My initial impression, seeing reactions to TRoS starting to roll in, is in effect “here we go again.” Because I’m getting the impression we’re seeing YET. ANOTHER. round of polarization among the fandom, the return of the old discourse and such.
Honestly, considering that it’s only been building all through this trilogy, that’s not surprising, and I really don’t give a damn anymore. If I like it, I like it. If I don’t, I don’t. I basically look at the Disney continuity as “secondary” anyway, sticking to Legends as my “prime” Star Wars universe - I grew up with that one, those original characters were my heroes, the ones who inspired me, and, even while loving Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose, these characters just don’t mean the same to me as Jaina, Anakin, and Jacen Solo, Tahiri Veila, Jag Fel, etc. Not a slam on them, just... It’s different when you grow up with them.
I mean, the basic “issues” of the last two movies basically boil down to (understand that I’m simplifying here) that TFA was too traditional a Star Wars movie and TLJ was too different a Star Wars movie. 
When that’s part one and part two, part three is NEVER going to satisfy both sides. 
I think it ultimately comes down to “what are you watching Star Wars to see?” For me, I look to Star Wars as a space fantasy fairy tale. It’s why I didn’t particularly care for TLJ, finding it to be a war tale of gritty realism, a story about exhaustion, a narrative that actively REJECTS being a fairy tale, even to an extent telling me as the audience that I need to “grow up” and that the real world isn’t like that. It didn’t feel like an escape to me, in the same way as the others had. So if TRoS is going to lean away from that narrative, I’m okay with it.
Ultimately, though, I feel like the big problem here is that this trilogy was NEVER a cohesive whole. Each part of this trilogy was written almost independent of one another (it’s another thing that bothered me about TLJ - Rian Johnson openly admitted that he discarded things about TFA that didn’t “fit” the story he was telling, but that means dropping plot threads that did exist in the previous movie, this was part two of a connected story, you can’t just come in and only tell your idea as part two, especially when you’re immediately following up on part one), and it REALLY shows. There isn’t the narrative cohesion that would make certain that the planted gun in act one goes off by act three - instead, we’ve got forgotten guns, replanted guns, guns spontaneously appearing, guns without any bullets... 
I may have pointed out having an issue with Rian Johnson’s approach in the above paragraph, but I am WELL aware that JJ Abrams has serious issues with actually resolving the plots and mysteries he creates, and, when he tries, the results range from “lackluster” to “it was alright.” Doesn’t leave a lot of room for confidence there. That’s what annoys me about this trilogy overall, that he introduced things in TFA intentionally with the idea that he wouldn’t have to be the one to conclude them. 
I mean, that was the initial plan, JJ Abrams would write Episode Seven, Rian Johnson would write Episode Eight, and Colin Trevorrow would write Episode Nine, and NO ONE was running interference to make these movies were going to have a solid narrative cohesion. 
That’s not actually a good way to write a trilogy.
Like, say what you will about the prequels, George Lucas knew what he was aiming for with that trilogy. That was a unique entity, the saga of Anakin Skywalker’s fall to the dark side. Execution issues abound, but the core narrative is cohesive, it makes sense, we can see where its going and the story it wants to tell. But what story exists for the sequel trilogy? What is its purpose? Why does it exist?
Because I keep coming back to “the sequel trilogy exists so that Disney can make bank off the franchise.” That was the driving focus for this trilogy, not that they wanted to tell some great story or commentary, but that “Star Wars does trilogies, so do a trilogy.” And no one went in expecting to have to actually deal with it.
I mean, the sequels have been made on an even shorter schedule than the prequels were. That’s NUTS when you consider the time and effort that has to take place to make them. And, again, no one went into these to tell a specific story. It’s just been “okay, JJ, you get to do a thing, and then other guys will come in and do another thing, so don’t worry about the pieces you have to work with, you’re one and done anyway. Good luck to the last guy, amiright?” 
No one had a basic idea of what to do with these movies going in, and it shows. If you ever expected Episode IX to be a solid, satisfactory conclusion... Honestly, you were probably hoping for too much to begin with, since it was never written with any kind of conclusion in mind in the first place.
So the sequel trilogy probably just had the deck stacked against it from the beginning, because no one knew what to do or where to go with it from the start. 
And so I’m on the “temper expectations” train, in the sense that my expectation is “going in, enjoying myself for two and a half hours, watch some escapist fantasy, leave satisfied.” 
Y’all can have your discourse. Me, I’m just here for a Star War, and I feel pretty good about that right now.
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mindynichole · 6 years
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Watch out peeps! I'm about to go full Reylo on you!
I'm going to be upfront and honest.
Like seemingly everyone else, my very first reaction to TFA when it initially came out in the theater was Rey somehow had to be a long lost-Skywalker since the force was obviously very strong within her. As a long-time fan, I felt I could recognized that Skywalker brand of force anywhere. Regardless, I also clearly recognized the unmistakable connection our bad ass Jedi scavenger shared with Kylo Ren. They were destined somehow. I just figured it was in some blood way like Luke and Leia. This was my very first impression.
However, I was unable to view TFA again for a second time until the following summer when my children finally got me the DVD for my birthday. Upon the second and subsequent viewings, I started to deeply suspect something very different than my first impression.
There seemed to be more going on there between these two characters than the simple little connection between Luke and Leia. I strongly seen the connection much more as romantic (yes even more romantic than the whole incest thing) and thought I must have been crazy. After all, it isn't like Star Wars hadn't already fooled us once with the whole family/love interest thing before.
So I proceeded to do something I never thought I'd do again and dusted off my Tumblr account (I was a big part of the Bethyl fandom once upon a time but swore off the site due to the toxicity of it all. While I was mostly on other social media, I did use Tumblr a lot at for reference, research, and the occasional battle cry) in order to see what other fans  thought. That's when I discovered I wasn't alone in seeing this connection. In fact, there was a whole bunch of other people who also got what I did from TFA! Okay, so I wasn't crazy after all!
However, despite the large number of people who "got" Reylo right away, I also quickly noticed there was also much of the same toxicity that the Bethyl fandom also experienced from other fans - and let's be honest, Star Wars is a much bigger deal than TWD.
So while I'm very sorry to all my fellow long-time Reylo warriors and sufferers, I quickly noped it right out of there again. Call me a fair-weather shipper if you must - but I've already fought the good fight once - and while I ended up with some amazing friends I cherish to this day, I didn't ever want to go there again.
Besides, I'm probably much older than most of you lovely peeps on here (being an "old" lady and all) and have way too many responsibilities that affect way too many people to be slacking again like I did way back then. Seriously, I'm surprised sometimes I still have a job and marriage and stuff after dedicating so much time to Bethyl. Shipping is hard work!
Therefore, I've never really voiced my suspicions outside of family and close friends until I finally got to view TLJ on Christmas Eve. Now, I'm utterly convinced I am right on all my various Star Wars theories with very little doubt.
That was that, right? Everyone gets it now! Well, apparently not. *throws hands up in air*
Something astonishing happened. I actually once again took to the internet in order to revel in the canonization of my little crack ship and realized there were still soooo many people who still just didn't get it! Wait, what? I mean, really? What's a girl got to do to explain some Star Wars? After all, I'm an original fan here and unlike most people my age, I actually believe I get what George was trying to do with the Prequels so never mind even Reylo and stuff - the one thing I am confident in knowing (besides TWD...at least back in the day when it was actually good) is Star Wars!
And I hate to break it to a lot of people but I believe Reylo IS THE ENTIRE POINT of these new movies.  
So here I've been ever since; literally weeks of working on much too long and much too time consuming metas about Star Wars - all while my household implodes around me. And once again, I'm probably going to get some pretty nasty criticism. Seriously, you should have seen how much I got downvoted and the mayhem that ensued on Reddit for just two sentences the other day.  
But I'm always up for at least one more good fight,  I suppose. Especially since I'm so convinced I'm right. Therefore, I am putting advance notice to all my anons - most of whom were associated with the Bethyl fandom so long ago - that my blog is fixing to take us back "a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" so that we may explain this new phenomenon commonly termed "Reylo."   I enter into this endeavor ever in awe and absolutely inspired by my much more dedicated Relyo-ers around the web. Some of what I believe to be true, they've already picked up on and explained a very long time ago. These people are so brilliant they have been quoted in countless videos and articles everywhere. Seriously, they rock! So I'm not even trying to repeat what they have already said, just add my own thoughts and insight into the already existing conversation. Because they are so perceptive, some of my examples will no doubt mirror others, but rest assured that my conclusions are all my own independent of outside influence.
And my first conclusion is this...
The one thing that TLJ made crystal clear to me is: This is not a trilogy about a mysterious force-filled girl found on a junk planet destine to save the universe from a mighty Dark Prince with Skywalker blood. That's just not what we are really watching. The same way TESB changed the original trilogy from about a young boy completing his father's work by saving the universe from the evil Emperor and his Dark Sith, like it first appeared. The second movies' most important job in the Star Wars universe is to completely change the direction of the entire project and confuse the crap out of everybody - hence why many fans are so...well...confused.  
In actuality, this isn't even just about Rey at all-  but rather TLJ revealed it was a story about two equal main characters: Rey and Ben Solo. While I immediately took all this away when I left the theater, I hear it has been further spelled out by Rian Johnson in subsequent interviews to those who just aren't used to rooting for a power-hungry dark force bearer too, I guess.  What we have here is two protagonist whom I believe are connected in a way than many fans can’t even imagine because it’s so new.
But in an effort to keep this meta from becoming a book, I will explain what I believe that connection to be later.
As for now this has to be continued............
May the Force be with you all!
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myghcst · 7 years
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Honestly, it vexes me when I consistently see people saying that they don’t want to see redemption arcs.
And to clarify because I don’t want to beat around the bush, I do mean Kylo Ren in particular—though this could be generalized for other characters, too, I guess?
Kylo falls under the role of an antagonist. He has done horrible things: he is the Jedi Killer, he ordered the slaughter of those people at the start of the film, tortured Poe for information, fetched information from Rey’s mind and killed his own father. These are actions that firmly establish him as Not Good. He wouldn’t be an antagonist if he didn’t do bad things, would he?
But context is very important, and the finer emotional nuances in scenes such as Han’s death need to be evaluated less simplistically. In multiple source materials, it is canonically established that Kylo Ren is not pure evil. He struggles with the actions he believes he must take. Adam Driver has described Kylo Ren as someone who (while not verbatim, the intent of words is the same) “feels what he’s doing is right, and feels justified in his actions because of that.” If you want the full bit of what he said, just for clarity, here:
Well, I don’t know. I certainly didn’t think of him that way in playing him, that he is doing anything villainous. It’s more if he thinks what he is doing is right, and being justified by it. And then trying to tell the story of why – making it a person as much as possible.
“Wait!” You might say. “He thinks the fucked up shit he’s doing is right? How is that at all supposed to make me want this guy to have a redemption arc?”
This is where we get into the finer details and lore, my friend. While the matter of Ben Solo’s grooming by Snoke is an entire other issue the fandom is up in arms about, the fact that he was targeted in the womb is undeniable. There are multiple written scenes in the Aftermath novel that lead to this conclusion:
The dark, now lit with stars. One by one, like eyes opening. Comforting at first, then sinister as she worries. Who is out there, who is watching us? Hands reach for her, hands of shadow, lifting her up, reaching for her throat, her wrists, her stomach -
Inside, the child kicks. She feels her baby turning inside, right-side, up and down, struggling to find his bearings, trying so hard to find his way free of her. It’s not time, she thinks. Just a little longer.
He is less a human shaped thing and more a pulsing, living band of light. Light that sometimes dims, that sometimes is thrust with a vein of darkness. She tells herself that it’s normal - Luke said to her, Leia, we all have that. He explained that the brighter the light, the darker the shadow.
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.
As well as this moment from the novelization of TFA:
Leia bit her lower lip, refusing to concede. “No. It was Snoke.”
Han drew back slightly. “Snoke?”
She nodded. “He knew our child would be strong with the Force. That he was born with equal potential for good or evil.” “You knew this from the beginning? Why didn’t you tell me?”
She sighed. “Many reasons. I was hoping that I was wrong, that it wasn’t true. I hoped I could sway him, turn him away from the dark side, without having to involve you.” A small smile appeared.  
“You had—you have—wonderful qualities, Han, but patience and understanding were never among them. I was afraid that your reactions would only drive him farther to the dark side. I thought I could shield him from Snoke’s influence and you from what was happening.” Her voice dropped. “It’s clear now that I was wrong. Whether your involvement would have made a difference, we’ll never know.”
He had trouble believing what he was hearing. “So Snoke was watching our son.”
“Always,” she told him. “From the shadows, in the beginning, even before I realized what was happening, he was manipulating everything, pulling our son toward the dark side.”
And then, of course, are these additions from JJ:
It’s more than just having a ‘bad seed’ as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally.
So this mother and father had a target as a son, someone who’s watching their boy, and these parents aren’t there enough to guide him.
Kylo Ren is a villain, but he’s also a victim and this plays—no matter what people might want to think—a very integral role in his character progression. Snoke has been an influence on Ben Solo’s life for almost as long as he’s existed. There has likely never been a Ben Solo that existed without that outside influence. According to the timeline we’ve been able to establish about Kylo, he defected when he was in his 20s—meaning there is a part of him that always resisted the seduction of the dark side, but eventually gave in. 
But why did he give in? What was the extent of this manipulation on Snoke’s behalf that could cause a golden child from some of our favorite heroes to go so wrong? 
The thing is, we can’t be sure. We only know that Ben was kept from the truth about his lineage and when that knowledge came forward, he felt betrayed. Worse, it is likely that the combination of Snoke’s influence and the respective actions/inactions of his parents (no matter how well meaning) all served to push him off that edge. 
My two cents? Kylo Ren has the illusion that what he’s doing is right because what he used to believe in—his parents, the Jedi, the light—were proven to be ‘wrong’ when he found out the truth. This all-knowing force that had guided him all his life had been right instead. 
“The supreme leader is wise.”
I believe that in the end, the rhetoric of the dark side and Snoke became the only thing left to Ben Solo that made sense anymore. So he did what Snoke told him was right, because he’d been right about everything else. He follows his dark path almost religiously because it’s all that’s left to him now.  
When Han talks to Kylo Ren on  that bridge, he isn’t talking to the Jedi Killer—he is talking to his son. He is talking to his boy who has not heard his own name in god knows how long (because Ben Solo is dead) and he is getting through to him. When Han Solo asks Kylo Ren to come back home, Kylo Ren does not laugh in his face. He doesn’t proclaim his father a fool. He doesn’t praise the dark side.
He says, with tears in his eyes, “It’s too late.”
In my opinion, it’s practically an admittance that this is not what he wanted. He does not want to be on that bridge, preparing to do what he’s going to do. I think he wants to go back home, but—going back to what I said earlier about the dark being all he has left—he believes that there’s nothing left, though Han is offering him family again. Because if his father is right, then what has he done? What has he done all this time? If Han is right, he has made so many unforgivable mistakes, and who could live with that? If what he’s done is not right, then what does that make him? 
Anyone would have a hard time swallowing that. It has to be right, because if it’s wrong, the alternative is unthinkable. 
JJ has another memorable quotation that I can (and will) reference back to in order to support this:
People have asked me if I think that Kylo Ren was just playing with him the whole time, if he meant to kill him from the beginning. And the truth is, I think Kylo Ren, in this moment, is actually being convinced to walk away from this. Snoke is, as Han says, using him, and I think that somewhere Ben knows this. But I think that he can't accept it. Deep down, he has gone too far.
Despite anything Kylo Ren has said, Ben Solo is still very much alive. The action of killing Han Solo was an act from Snoke meant to quiet that voice completely. It’s not weakness in his apprentice that Snoke fears: it’s his apprentice thinking for himself and having Ben Solo’s power used against him. He played the long game. Every investment he made into the birth of Kylo Ren was to ensure he had this quivering mass of rage and anguish fighting on his behalf. He does not want Kylo Ren to be at peace with the pull inside of him the way Kylo Ren thinks killing his father will achieve.
He wants Kylo Ren to suffer. He wants to Kylo Ren to sabotage himself until there truly is no way back.
At the end of the day, it’s important for people to realize this: redemption arcs are not about what a character deserves. It never will be about deserving. Han Solo deserves justice? Yes. Poe and Rey deserve justice? Yes. Finn deserves justice? Yes. Does Kylo Ren deserve to be punished for what he’s done? Of course. Redemption arcs aren’t about justice either, however. It isn’t about cleansing an antagonist of their sins or punishing them. 
It’s the antagonist realizing the horror of what they’ve done and deciding they need to do something to make things right. Whether that be a sacrifice or a lifetime’s worth of service in the name of a greater good, it doesn’t matter. It’s about repenting. 
This is about Kylo Ren realizing the light wasn’t a lie, that he doesn’t have to tear himself apart anymore. That he’s drawn to it for a reason. This is about reparations to a galaxy, an abuse victim realizing he is being abused. Gaining his independence for the first time in his life. Giving his father’s soul peace, and his mother one more piece of her shattered family back after everything she has lost.
That is a redemption arc. 
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reylosource · 7 years
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// What advice/reassurance/encouragement would you give to a Reylo fan who suspects that we'll be disappointed with what we get in The Last Jedi? I just have this feeling that all of this theorizing and speculating will end up being for naught and that Reylo won't become a reality (or at least, not in the way we want it to). I'll still love the movie, but I'm wary of getting my Reylo hopes up.
Heya! Such a great question and one that persists across all fandoms since the Beginning of Time™.
// What advice/reassurance/encouragement would you give to a Reylo fan who suspects that we’ll be disappointed with what we get in The Last Jedi?
I’d say that it’s OK to feel that way - to be suspicious of the hope, the signs, etc. and it’s okay to talk about the fears (even though some people might accuse you of being negative, etc.).
Aside from that, however, I would say that I personally feel like I’m not going to be disappointed in the slightest by The Last Jedi. Because the line of my shipper expectations for this movie is essentially ‘they’re going to share some screen time and a storyline’. And there are BOAT LOADS of supporting documents to show it - disregarding all the spoilers/leaks even.
So with that said, some wisdom for you:
not in the way we want it to 
First, and I cannot stress this enough, is that it is really important for you as an independent shipper to decide which is the line that would make you happy in fandom - that is, define what would make you satisfied as a Reylo shipper. There are usually a few general categories of shipper within any given fandom:
The ‘IDGAF’ Shipper: This is the non-canon shipper - the kind that has either been through non-canon ships before and knows that legitimacy (herein defined as canon) is not important to their appreciation of the ship - OR - people who just don’t care if Reylo is ‘confirmed canon’ or not. Both of these types of people can and choose to subsist almost entirely off of transformative works (fanart, fanfic, etc.) and forge their love of the ship entirely out of it and fandom and what could have been/could be.
Example: I think the best example I can think of is ‘Dramione’. Never canon, only exists in fanon circles, hugely popular and has a thriving fandom from what I can tell.
The ‘Subtext/Context’ Shipper: This is the type of shipper who sees signs and hints in the body of a work (movies, other canon things, interviews, etc.) - it is not necessary for the ship to become ‘full-blown’ canon in this situation. Only the hint of it is enough for them - the ambiguity. I suspect that most Reylos in the fandom have been this type of shipper for the past 18+ months, but this is merely speculation.
Example: Sherlolly from BBC’s Sherlock. (Please don’t flame me, this is in example only and is within the context of shipper goggles). Lots of hints, situations, etc. - but never truly became ‘full-blown’ canon. ie, we don’t see a romantic relationship on screen in that specific context.
The ‘Confirmed Canon’ Shipper: Pretty self explanatory, basically the type of shipper who needs it to be canon full-stop. This includes things like kissing, dating, declarations of feelings without questionable context, etc. These are the type who will only find full enjoyment from fandom if the ship is eventually/has been confirmed canon. 
Example: Take any active ship on the market today. To continue the Harry Potter example, let’s use Ron x Hermione. (I don’t even know their ship name, sorry yall!)
There are mixtures of these of course - and of course most people HOPE for the full-blown canon confirmation of any of their ships. However these are the LINES of shipping. Meaning, that point and above would make you happy in fandom/shipping, and none below it.
I just have this feeling that all of this theorizing and speculating will end up being for naught and that Reylo won’t become a reality
I think I would say that you have to not look at it that way. The speculation, the theorizing, etc. is all part of the fandom experience. People make good livings just speculating and theorizing about things that can never truly be confirmed by the author/etc. I wouldn’t pin your enjoyment of the past 2 years on the question of whether it’ll become full-blown canon - I think that sets yourself up for disappointment even IF it becomes canon.
Because - and trust me on this, as a veteran of other fandoms - almost always the meta/fanon that fills in the speculation gaps between episodes or movies ends up being better than the canon material itself. Even IF said material revolves around your canon ship. 
You will probably love what they come up with anyway, but it might not be the way your head has built it - and that’s okay. It’s like reading the book vs watching the adaptation (a good one though ;D). You can enjoy both the work and the transformative work simultaneously - after you get over the initial annoyance of it not being exactly as you predicted (grumbles slightly over past experiences).
I’ll still love the movie, but I’m wary of getting my Reylo hopes up.
Again on this one I think you just have to decide what you’re hoping for - it varies from person to person. I know some just want them to share the screen, regardless of how. Some want them to kiss, etc. Some shippers find that they could only continue shipping it if he is redeemed wholly - while others will continue to ship it even if it turns out they’re related (which ofc is not a reality, but they would.).
So you asked for advice and here’s what I would say, after all my ranting:
I would take a break from fandom before the movie comes out. Two weeks at least. No interviews, tumblr, fanfic, etc. Take a break, recharge and rewatch The Force Awakens to reset your love and memory purely from canon and not fandom. I guarantee that you will walk away from The Last Jedi enjoying it so much more - because you won’t have the huge build up of 2+ years of expectations weighing you down. I went into TFA (being a huge Star Wars fan) having only watched the teaser trailer. I literally said to my friend before we saw it that I thought Luke was going to be ‘the lightsaber dude in the forest’. I had nothing built up and I loved it. You can’t get that back after fandom, but I think a reset would do wonders - I’m probably going to try to do a month long one.
I think fandom is the most amazing thing to participate in, but I speak from thorough experience with shows/movies that take 2+ year gaps between premieres with nothing but fanon/speculation to fill in the gaps - you’ll want to refresh your love of canon after a break before you go into it. Otherwise regardless of how it turns out you risk being disappointed.
That’s just my personal advice, I’m sure others have different experiences. =)
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storiesofwildfire · 7 years
Text
MUNDAY TAG
RULES: tag 9 people you wanna know better
TAGGED BY:  @lxvingdeadgxrl TAGGING: @raidstombs @dominionovershadows @weightofmyshield @corruptedones @inlucisabsentiam and whoever else would like to do this!
RELATIONSHIP STATUS: Single. Man, I’ve been single for years. Doubt that’s gonna change anytime soon.
FAVOURITE COLOUR: Green. Bright, vibrant shades of green, though!
LIPSTICK OR CHAP STICK: I’m going to go with chapstick because I wear it more often and I really do need it. My lips chap so badly all year round that if I don’t have it, my lips ache. I usually end up using medicated lip balm. I do like lipstick, though, specifically dark, bold colors. I don’t wear makeup that often, but when I do, it’s bomb af.
LAST SONG I LISTENED TO: Jonathan Young’s cover of Shiny (Disney’s Moana)
LAST MOVIE I WATCHED: Cars 3.
TOP 3 FICTIONAL CHARACTERS:
Loki - I think this is pretty fucking obvious, tbh. I’ve been roleplaying Loki consistently for almost 5 years on Tumblr and I’m working on a television show concept that has myth Loki as the protagonist. I love myth Loki and Marvel Loki and I love mixing the two together on this blog. He’s my muse and that’s just how it is.
Lara Croft - Lara is probably one of my oldest loves, to be honest. She is one of the first female characters that I was introduced to at a young age who was strong, independent, and extremely intelligent. I love Lara Croft. She is one of my favorite characters of all time.
Hiei - This is probably a more obscure character from an old anime called Yu Yu Hakusho, but I used to roleplay him for years. I probably still would if there was a bigger YYH fandom to interact with. I often regard him as my childhood-Loki and one of my all time favorite anime characters of all times.
Some Honorable Mentions: Obi-Wan Kenobi (Star Wars), Cassian (Star Wars Rogue One), Rey (Star Wars TFA), BB-8 (Star Wars TFA), Levi (Attack on Titan), Tony Stark (Marvel), Wonder Woman (DC), Draco Malfoy (Harry Potter), Magnus Bane (The Mortal Instruments book series. I have not seen the show), Stitch (Lilo & Stitch), Sebastian Castellanos (The Evil Within), Raven (Teen Titans), Mulan (historical figure and Disney’s Mulan), Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean), Shaggy Rogers (Scooby Doo), Scooby (Scooby Doo)
Probably should stop that list before it goes on and on and on.
TOP 3 SHIPS:
I’m not entirely sure I want to answer this because I love all of the ships I have for Loki. The reason I ship with so many wonderful people is because we’ve put the work in to make their relationships blossom and be uniquely beautiful each time. I will say that I have a weakness for crossover pairings that are so obscure, no one else would ever ship them. For example, I’ve recently come into an intense love for LokiXObi-Wan in a verse I have off-tumblr and a love for LokiXLara Croft. I also love shipping Loki with OCs? Like, half of my ships are with OCs and I’m so fucking happy about that? 
But yeah, I’m not gonna list top 3s or anything like that because each of my ships is unique between me and my partner and to put a value to them would be fucked up.
BOOKS I’M READING: I’m currently reading Writing Screenplays That Sell by Michael Hauge for school. I’m also reading several Norse Myth textbooks as well as the Gospel of Loki to help inspire my personal work with Loki as well as some new content on this blog.
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blueeyedwolf33 · 7 years
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i actually don't ship rey/lo. the ship squicks the ever loving shit out of me but it costs $0 to leave people the fuck alone. you have a lot of nerve considering you used to ship rey/lo hardcore like posting untagged nsfw stuff (always a delight seeing that on my dash) and then you realized the fandom considered your ship *problematic* and you wanted to be liked and validated by the fandom, so you did your insincere 180. trust me, sweetie, you are very transparent
Did you literally just not read what I said, hun? I said do what you want as long as it’s healthy but as soon as you start fetishizing and romanticizing rape/abuse/suppression/incest/pedophilia I won’t be quiet anymore. 
And congratulations. 
Once upon a time I did ship R/e/y/no because of the fact that I used to self-insert onto Rey. She’s a likable character. Is independent and driven. Strong-minded. Kicked Kylo’s ass.
That whole time, I objectified her like I see everyone doing now. And I realized how shitty that is awhile back and immediately stopped. The second time I went to the film and I saw TFA, I realized all the ties/parallels with Luke and just kinda NOPPED the fuck out of there. Because I hadn’t caught it in the beginning but I did then.
And the fact that I rooted hard for Stormpilot.
I wasn’t sure Rey was even a Skywalker but now the evidence is pretty strong that she is in fact part of the family and that’s where the line in the fucking sand is drawn. 
And have you watched the interrogation scene? That’s creepy, dude. I’ll also direct you to this post which, if you’ve seen the film, makes all the sense in the world. 
I’m still entertained with the thought of Rey Kenobi but not with Kylo. I really just want a Kenobi to kick some sense into a Skywalker again. And have Finn’s help doing it. 
Also, where is this NSFW content? I don’t post explicit NSFW stuff on my blog even now and certainly didn’t used to like literally? Where is it? I actually looked. I couldn’t find anything too racy. Honestly, though. Where? 
The closest thing I found was a shirtless picture of Kylo and one with a helmet over his crotch so, sorry? Guess I’ll have to start tagging NSFW even though I don’t reblog/post it. 
Save for like a couple Hobbit fics from a long time ago. But they’re tagged. So????
Also, bruh, I was out of the R/e/y/no ship along time before I started doing anything big in the fandom. Again, you’re pulling at strings here, love. 
I made a mistake, changed my behavior way before I was ever involved even fractionally in the fandom besides OC writing, and have righted myself. 
The dirt you only have on me now is I don’t condone any of the mentioned shit above and people typically shouldn’t? Just like they shouldn’t cry wolf? Am I right? 
Love, 
Kay 😘
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benperorsolo · 7 years
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Don't do the first one I messed up lmao okay so heisaki and zutara for 001, ben solo for 002 and for 003 zuko, aang, sokka, katara, toph
001. (heisaki)
when I started shipping it if I did:
I honestly don’t even remember. I usually don’t start shipping couples as I watch a show, but after when I’m looking for fanfic to distract me from my schoolwork. So sometime after finishing S1.
my thoughts:
Heisaki pretty much caters to every grossly trash thing I like in ships: enemies to lovers, preferably with some kickass woman and some super-evil looking masked dude with Secret Depths and Softness™ (I know I’m garbage okay I’ve made my peace), where Sad Angry Scary Dude is shown affection from someone who believes in their goodness more than they’re disgusted by their evil, and Strong But Soft Woman discovers tenderness and support in the unlikeliest of  places.
What makes me happy about them:
All of the above, and also the way they cycle through various identities with each other in canon, the way canon teases them as people who would make an amazing team if they weren’t pawns for organizations bigger than themselves. The way both of them are uncompromising in their work but have secret private vulnerabilities. The way both of them love the stars. 
What makes me sad about them:
The way canon bastardized Misaki in the second season into being obsessed with catching Hei because of her weird unresolved feelings for him. But not in a cool or respectful way; just in a way that made Misaki into a lovesick waif whose personality completely went out the window. 
things done in fanfic that annoys me:
Mostly when Hei becomes to emotional or emotionally honest with Misaki without a lot of buildup, considering he’s been emotionally constipated for going on a decade now and for reasons that involved not dying. Likewise when Misaki turns into a damsel to be saved.
things I look for in fanfic:
Some sort of clear ideological friction between the two of them; Misaki’s discovery of the Black Reaper’s identity and/or interacting with the Black Reaper in person. 
Who I’d be comfortable them ending up with, if not each other:
No one? Hei’s other options are Amber, a ship which I find interesting as something in Hei’s past but not one I would endgame bc abusive, and Yin, who is mentally basically a child and it feels like pedophilia.
My happily ever after for them:
Haaaa the grossly indulgent Office AU. Hei becomes a contractor working with Section 4, develops a little friend/family unit with Section 4 and astronomics; he and Misaki get married; Hei reconnects with his family in China; Hei and Misaki have a little girl named Seiko and it’s gr9. Everything is beautiful and occasionally hurts but never, y’know, forever.
who is the big spoon/little spoon:
Hei, probably. But it could vary. They’re just about equal in height so there’s no reason one should be the big spoon over the other.
what is their favorite non-sexual activity:
Stargazing.
001. zutara
when I started shipping it if I did:
Don’t even remember. Sometime after finishing Book 3, I think. 
my thoughts:
Gold standard ship. The ship I keep shipping in other fandoms, just in different iterations. The ying-yang, ‘you rise with the moon, I rise with the sun’ way they complement each other, and yet at their cores are so similar: highly driven, compassionate, passionate people who are proven in battle to make a great team.
What makes me happy about them:
The way their relationship beautifully unfolded over three seasons of mortal enemies, to maybe-allies (and then would-be-ally and traitor), to allies and friends. The way each season of ATLA ends with a fight between them; the first two against each other, and the last one with each other. The way they are safe places for the other— Katara confiding to him in the crystal caves, and again about her mother in Southern Raiders; Zuko confiding to Katara about his fear of facing his uncle, and Katara’s reassurance, and then the way Zuko took Katara with her to fight Azula because he knew he needed a steadfast ally he could trust.
What makes me sad about them:
The way Bryke have insulted the ship over the years, calling it too ‘dark and mysterious’ for Nick, but then fucked up all of the canon relationships in ATLA by having their kids have extremely dysfunctional relationships with their parents, or just making the relationships straight-up dysfunctional coughMaikocough 
things done in fanfic that annoys me:
When Katara gets the Mary Sue Strong Independent Woman treatment, or when she becomes some helpless crying waif (usually Book 1 kidnapping fics, which can be good, okay, they can), and likewise when Zuko post-redemption is still a jerkass. I mean he can still be a jerk, but he’s not a jerkass.
things I look for in fanfic:
I’ll read almost anything. I like S1 fic (typically Zuko captures Katara, and Katara takes none of his shit, and then TEAMWORK HAPPENS), s2 fic where crotchety I-once-did-something-good-and-gave-myself-a-coma Zuko and Katara are forced to work together in lovehate, and post-s3 Western Air Temple fics where Zuko has to earn Katara’s forgiveness. 
Who I’d be comfortable them ending up with, if not each other:
No one lmao. I’m not a multishipper.
My happily ever after for them:
Fire Lord Zuko and Fire Lady Katara rule the Fire Nation in peace and harmony and are happy, the end.
who is the big spoon/little spoon:
Zuko’s the big spoon.
what is their favorite non-sexual activity:
Sparring.
002. Ben Solo
How I feel about this character:
ALL THE THINGS. I LOVE MY BOYFRIENDSON BEN SKYWALKER-ORGANA-SOLO.
More seriously— I love how he’s desperate for villainy, and yet cannot achieve it no matter how hard he tries. I love that this is a character who has to pray away the Light within him. I love how even after killing his father, the Light still won’t go away. I love that he is the beloved son of one of the most loved couples in cinematic history, related in a significant way to almost everyone in the prequels, OT, and sequels. I love that he effectively flips the conflict of the original films, wherein the fallen father is saved by the goodness of his son, and now it is the fallen son who will be saved (mark my words) by his father. I love the angst inherent in watching this character, who was practically born to be a hero, do everything he can to shirk his destiny and ensure his Darkness, and yet fall short. And most of all, I love the possibility (inevitability) of his redemption. I love the idea of getting to explore what redemption looks like when you don’t die before its completion, like Anakin. I love the idea of Ben realizing that his father did save him after all; of getting to smile at his uncle again;  of getting to hug his mother again; of it hurting so much— the hurt of a healing wound, at last, and not the hurt of the Dark Side. Of Ben getting to reclaim the person he might have been, had Snoke and misfortune and his own hamartia not found him, so that he no longer has to hide behind a false name and a mask, but can finally as himself face the sun, unafraid. Ben Solo means a lot to me. Maybe the hypotheticals of his character more than what we have now. But I honestly think that my strange compassion for this fake person has made me a better person. Because, if I can sit here and rail for his redemption no matter his sins— then what excuse do I have not to try to become a better person myself?
All the people I ship romantically with this character:
Rey the bae all the way.
My non-romantic OTP for this character:
BenPoe/Knightpilot, especially involving them as childhood friends, and Poe having to come to terms with Ben, who he was, and who he is, after Ben defects back to the Resistance. Some of my favorite character pieces to this end are This Thing of Darkness I Acknowledge Mine and Orbital Period. Also the BenPoe fandom are pretty much the nicest people ever?
My unpopular opinion about this character:
The fact that I like him is probably an unpopular opinion. 
Okay okay my real unpopular opinion (ESSAY AHOY) is my insistence of Kylo Ren’s true name still being Ben Solo (ofc you know this is a thing with me bc you very diplomatically asked me to talk about ‘Ben Solo’ and not ‘Kylo Ren’ in your ask lmao, and you know I call him ‘Ben’ just like I call Vader ‘Anakin’— practically always, in both cases, because it’s for the same reason). Kylo Ren is a shadow archetype, an alter ego, a mask and a costume— the thing Ben is trying desperately to become and yet never will, not only because he failed so horribly at being a proper villain in TFA (going for Rey instead of the droid; not torturing the bejeezus out of Rey immediately; feeling immediate regret after killing his father, not pushing Rey off a cliff during their fight when he had the chance, and then losing to her), but because it’s just how Star Wars works. It’s the same with Anakin and Vader— as Luke says to Vader in ROTJ, ‘[Anakin] is the name of your true self; you’ve only just forgotten,’ and ultimately Luke is proven right. Throughout canon, the Dark Side is depicted as a corruption of your true self; a warping of who you really are. Your Dark Side is not your authentic self, it’s a gross imitation, and whatever you call yourself under the thrall of the Dark Side is not your true name either. This is how it functioned for Anakin/Vader in the OT; and how it was for Galen Marek/Starkiller in the EU. Your Dark Side name is your slave name. It’s just another mask; a type of verbal disassociation— another way to remove yourself from the reality of what you’re really doing and what you have become. There is also the gross, skeevy observation that Anakin was given the name Vader by Palpatine, the creep who groomed him, and it’s not a difficult leap to assume that Snoke, the creep who groomed Ben in utero, gave Ben the name Kylo Ren. It is canon that Snoke has forbidden the name ‘Ben Solo’ to be spoken by anyone in the First Order, including Ben. But who the hell knows that Kylo Ren is Ben? It’s treated as an extreme secret, and currently I’d say the number is limited to Snoke, Hux, and Ben himself. So who is Snoke really forbidding from saying the name Ben Solo? Ben. He’s forbidding Ben. He’s giving Ben a gag order on his own name— which should immediately ring your bells as being sketchy AF for OBVIOUS REASONS, including but not limited to the fact that you only forbid people from doing things you know they are in danger of doing. If Ben were really completely dead, if he were really Kylo Ren all the way down, then what is Snoke afraid of? All of this to say, it annoys the everlasting and eternal fuck out of me when I see fics or headcanons where a redeemed Ben does not go back to that name, because then to me it represents a person who is still hiding behind the verbal equivalent of a mask. It would be like a redeemed Anakin still going by the name Darth Vader. It’s watching a man stand by the name of his abuse. It stands in literal opposition of everything a true redemption symbolizes, especially in Star Wars, and it’s gross gross gross I hate it.
One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon:
A REDEMPTION ARC BITCHESSS
my OTP:
Reylo. Okay technically Reyben. But yeah. More recently I’ve become obsessed with the idea of them as parents, because it would be such a beautiful capstone for them both. Rey, lonely, orphan Rey, finally having a family of her own. Rey being terrified of motherhood, because she can’t even remember her mother. Rey feeling that fierce, wolfish upwelling of maternal protectiveness for the first time and knowing she wouldn’t trade it for the world. Ben, terrified of making the mistakes his parents made with him; Ben, terrified of his past poisoning his children’s future. Ben, now a father, realizing the sort of unbreakable love that let his own father walk out on that bridge knowing he might die, and still taking the chance on his child. Ben, looking at the bundle in his arms and knowing he’d do the same. asdfghjkl;
my cross over ship:
Ben Solo x happiness, probably. I know it’s a wild concept.
a headcanon fact:
Ben is naturally good at pazaak and other gambling/card games. It’s one of the few roguish/smugglerish things he has in common with Han. Poe, Finn, and Rey always accuse him of using the Force to cheat, but he never does. During sessions of strip Pazaak (Poe’s idea), Poe, Finn, and Rey will be almost completely naked while Ben sits across the table fully clothed.
003. zuko, aang, katara, sokka, toph
1. zuko
2. aang
3. katara (tied w/ aang but just for overall character arc aang’s affects me more powerfully)
4. sokka
5. toph
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emperorren · 7 years
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on reylo being one-sided
(and why I’m not a huge fan of this scenario)
This is something I’ve wanted to address for a while---the fairly popular idea that the “only” romance we’re going to get in canon between Rey and Kylo will be one-sided on Kylo’s part. That there’s no way Rey can ever return his feelings (or, more accurately, his obsession), and will never forgive him for what he’s done.
I’m curious as to why this became so easy to believe in our corner of the fandom (and I mean specifically reylo shippers). Is this because we want to keep our expectations low? Is it because we recognize that some of the arguments “against” this ship are valid? Is it because, despite all meta and character analysis, we ultimately see Rey’s character as incompatible with Kylo’s, or we don’t believe in the writers’ ability to make her compatible without “ruining” her? Are there any actual signs of this dynamic being necessarily, intrinsically unrequited? 
The answer to the last question, in my opinion, is no. Kind of the opposite. But I’ll get to this later; meanwhile, I’ll concede that this is probably the easiest, safest scenario to speculate on. Kylo being fixated on Rey is already de facto canon, we’re not exactly making wild speculation here. From “what girl?”, to "forget the droid, we have what we need”, to the way he watches her for who the hell knows how long while she’s unconscious, to “I can be your teacher”, it’s clear that our bad boy finds Rey fascinating, and it’s not a stretch of imagination at all to assume that this fixation will only get worse from this point on---that he’ll probably try again to kidnap or lure her again to his side, now that he knows how powerful she is. Villainous crushes are a Thing, so there’s nothing particularly outrageous or unrealistic about this. 
Rey, however, is much more problematic. Her developing some feelings (whatever their nature) for Kylo really seems at odds with the way her character is portrayed and with her other main relationship (Finn). She doesn’t seem to feel anything but unadulterated hatred for Kylo at the end of the movie, and she has every reason to feel this way: the guy killed her newly found parental figure, hurt her best friend, is complicit in genocides and the destruction of an entire solar system, his every action proved that Leia was wrong about him. That Rey can ever feel even the slightest sympathy, let alone attraction, for such a person does sound like a stretch. "Falling” for Kylo would either irreparably taint her likability as a protagonist (what kind of person is attracted to someone who hurt her friends?), or, as many ant*s fear, turn her into an ooc, pallid imitation of the strong willed, independent, loyal young woman we’ve seen in TFA. Rey doesn’t have any real “reasons” to fall for Kylo, and the authors can’t make it happen unless they bend her character in really unpleasant ways. That’s the assumption.
But we shippers still want to see some romance---because what we saw blossoming in Kylo is unmistakable and too juicy not to be explored by the narrative. A tragic unrequited love on Kylo’s part that ends with him embracing the fact that Rey will never return his feelings, but still sacrificing himself for her safety, and redeeming himself with this purely selfless act---that sounds like a good compromise, right? Right. It’s not bad. It’s feasible from a storytelling perspective, it leaves Rey’s agency, personality, motivations etc. intact, while giving a payoff to Kylo’s anticipated *pull to the Light* without turning the story into a cheesy, bad trope-ridden romance in which the bad guy “gets the girl” as a prize for becoming good.
Still, I'm skeptical.
I’m 100% here for angst and a conflicted, tortured Kylo Ren who doesn’t know what to make of his feelings for the enemy, but do I really want to watch him chase a recalcitrant, disgusted Rey around the galaxy for the next two movies? Hell, no. Not only I’m afraid I’d find this repetitive and quickly exhausting, but the discourse around him would only get nastier, the “stalker” reading of his character more substantiated. Honestly, I don’t want to hear any of that.
But more importantly: even if it’s done well and the stalkey vibes are kept at minimum, it would work for Kylo, for his arc. Rey, on the other hand, would remain crystallized in her rejection of everything Kylo Ren is and stands for, which reeks of character stagnation, tbh. Especially compared to the enormous development that Kylo would undergo should he start to genuinely care for Rey. 
You know, if you put all the burden of character evolution---of “meeting halfway”---on Kylo Ren and none on Rey, the inevitable risk is making him much more interesting than her. (honestly, he already is, because the writers bothered to give him some complexity, some flaws that read as flaws, and not just as endearing quirks that don’t compromise the overall adorableness of the character.)
I personally don’t see Rey as already whole, and I strongly reject the idea that “she shouldn’t change anything about herself”. Not changing anything about yourself doesn’t sound like a great idea if you’re the protagonist of a trilogy that is simultaneously a hero’s journey and a rite of passage into adulthood. Rey needs an identity arc, a trajectory. She starts as a character with a rather black/white sense of morality, that the narrative doesn’t really challenge or present as even remotely problematic. That’s definitely less complex than, for example, Finn, who has a moment of “fuck, I’m getting the hell out of dodge” and then comes around, who lies repeatedly to Rey, to Poe, to Han, to the Resistance, who has this huge shadow of his former identity as a stormtrooper looming above him for 3/4 of the movie. Finn is conflicted---he doesn’t share Rey’s unflinching loyalty to bb8 (although, unlike Rey, he did meet bb8′s owner), and his primary concern is getting the FO out of his system and saving Rey. Rey otoh jumps on the good guys’ bandwagon almost immediately, the only thing holding her back (her desire to go back to Jakku to wait for her family) conveniently pushed aside to shove her into action. Amazing, but two more movies of Rey never questioning herself, her loyalties, her assumptions, never showing a single flaw, never even being tempted, sound absolutely dull to me. Luke is so memorable as a hero because he evolves throughout the movies; he’s not stagnant. He begins his journey as an idealist, naive farm boy with a very black/white mentality (the same we find in Rey), but then he’s broken, he learns something that forces him to reconsider his place in the war (in the universe) and his perspective shifts, and he sees a man to save where he used to see only an enemy. 
Of course, Rey’s arc doesn’t necessarily have to be similar to Luke’s, and her evolution surely doesn’t hinge on her relationship with the main (anti)villain. But the way they’ve framed her interactions with Kylo---including the fact that their duel represents the climax of the movie---tells me that this dynamic is going to be crucial. It would be a missed opportunity if Rey’s feelings weren’t as complex and layered as the ones Luke has for Vader.
I see the word “agency” tossed around a lot when promoting the idea of Rey never *falling* for Kylo. It’s a legitimate concern. But I think there’s a difference between:
a) feeling something for a person; b) acting on those feelings; c) letting those feelings define all you are or, worse, destroy who you are d) becoming a passive object of someone else’s desire
I definitely don’t want options C & D for Rey, and I only want B with... reservations (that is, if Kylo stop being an aggressive, self entitled ass, and changes himself in turn) but I think A is crucial---not for Kylo, but for Rey’s arc and complexity as a character. Feelings don’t have to be explicitly romantic, and she might continue on her path without giving in to them (i.e., refuse to let them dictate her actions)... but that she’s never going to feel sympathy for him in her heart is nonsensical given the way they shaped them as each other’s foil.
It’s important to note that Rey’s esteem of Kylo has already hit rock bottom by the end of TFA. Henceforth, it either rises or remains static, and I think we can all agree we can’t just watch two more movies of Rey thinking of Kylo as a monster. Well, I suppose someone could, but I for one would be bored to tears. (storytelling-wise, a character screaming their hate against their enemy in such a transparent, literal way in the first act is only a good choice if it’s going to be subverted later.)
Unrequited love is also at odds with my perception of this dynamic as intrinsically mutual. 
Everyone commented on the yin and yang subtext, that was possibly a source of inspiration for a lot of imagery surrounding Rey and Ren (starting from their curiously similar names). The thing about yin and yang is that they both need each other---they both strive to incorporate the other to achieve wholeness; it’s a two sided feedback. If Rey, the yang, doesn’t need, or care for, or feel temptation for Kylo, the yin, then you can throw the whole yin/yang narrative out of the window. There’s no yin/yang dynamic if the yang doesn’t need, or want, the yin. 
Even at this early stage, it’s a give and take between them. Kylo invades Rey’s consciousness to grab the map, Rey turns the tables on him and “steals” power and knowledge from his mind. The duel is a power play, a battle for dominance where each of them gets to have the upper hand at some point. Everything Kylo does to Rey, Rey returns in spades, almost mirroring him. So far, their interactions have been essentially violent, but should Kylo begin to feel something akin to affection, or compassion, or attraction for Rey, it makes sense to me that this would stir something of the same nature in her, an equal but opposite reaction. Why? Because they’re linked through the Force, she “feels” him as he “feels” her. Because she learns his story, and realizes that he wasn’t born bad. Because she starts dealing with her own darkness, and this makes her see Kylo’s in a different... light, no pun intended. I think these issues are already solidly rooted in canon, and in the hands of a skilled writer (and I think the authors behind this trilogy are skilled, if maybe lacking a bit of courage), can become a perfectly realistic premise for Rey to start feeling “something” for Kylo while maintaining her complexity 
tl;dr; “Rey redeems Kylo by doing absolutely nothing” is infinitely less interesting to me than “Rey and Kylo change and redefine each other through their collisions and interactions”. If I had to choose between a one sided romance on Kylo’s part and no romance at all (but rather, a mutual... friendship? ambiguous antagonism?) I’d choose the latter without blinking. I’m more interested in the mutual nature of whatever’s going on between them (even if it’s just platonic), than I am in any explicit (but one sided) depiction of romantic feelings.
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