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silverwhittlingknife · 1 year

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How do you feel about Jack Drake?? What are your thoughts on him and Tim’s relationship?

Anon, I hope you were interested in a novel, because look, I am fascinated by Jack Drake. He’s key to a whole lot of what I find compelling about Tim as a character, and if I were in charge of DC, I’d bring him back to life. This would make Tim unhappy but would IMO make for good plotlines.

Jack and Tim’s relationship is Complicated (TM)...

Jack and Tim hug in Nightwing 20 / Jack impulsively yanks a TV out of the wall in Robin 45 / Tim grieves in Identity Crisis

“I could tell the truth. But I don’t.” - Robin 66

...and it involves a whole lot of Tim lying, and feeling guilty about lying, and thinking about telling the truth, and choosing again and again to keep lying.

And I think that’s great.

Below the cut:

Shorter version - key points about Jack

Really long version - my gentler take (vigilantism is choir and Jack loves sports) vs. my harsher take (Jack has some major flaws)

Final thoughts

Shorter version - key points about Jack:

He’s a bad parent. He’s self-centered, he consistently prioritizes his own comfort and interests over his son’s, and when upset, he does things like order Tim off to boarding school.

But he’s never a bad parent in an actionable way. He’s not like David Cain or Arthur Brown, who are abusive monsters. Jack’s not a monster! He just...kinda sucks.

He genuinely loves Tim. If Jack’s aware that Tim’s disappeared or is in trouble, he’s always worried and upset. He periodically resolves to be a better dad, and IMO he’s always sincere.

And Tim loves him, a lot. Tim’s protective of him and worries about him when he’s kidnapped or in danger, and when they’re reunited, Tim’s really relieved and usually hugs him (and Jack hugs back!).

...But they have very little in common, and that’s a problem. Jack doesn’t value the things that Tim values, or respect the people that Tim admires, or care about the things that Tim’s interested in. Tim lies to him a lot, but that’s partly because he correctly guesses Jack wouldn’t respond well if he knew the truth of what Tim’s up to.

The Batfamily is a surrogate family that Tim’s drawn to because of the ways his real family doesn’t meet his emotional needs…but also he feels guilty about that and disloyal. (And to the extent that his dad recognizes what’s going on, he's jealous and resentful!)

Very long version:

(LISTEN I HAVE SO MANY THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS)

Okay! So first: Jack’s a character who IMO is pretty up for interpretation. You can interpret him very charitably, and make excuses for the bad behavior, and fill in the blanks sympathetically when situations are ambiguous; or you can interpret him uncharitably, and emphasize the bad behavior. I don’t think either approach is invalid - it depends on what kind of story you’re interested in! I have enjoyed Bad Dad stories and also stories that redeem Jack.

My personal take on canon is that Jack and Tim’s relationship is in a gray area. Jack's definitely neglectful, and he does prioritize other things over Tim, but he’s never so bad that Tim can easily reject him, and he's never so bad that Bruce could justify taking Tim away. He's just...not great. Tim loves him, and feels loyal to him, but it’s a very mixed-up complicated love.

I have a gentler take and a harsher one which I switch between as the spirit moves me. xD

My Gentler Take (tl;dr: vigilantism is choir and Jack loves sports)

Here’s the core conflict: Jack and Tim are very different people with different values. Tim idolizes Bruce and Dick and vigilantism, and secretly gets involved, knowing his dad will hate it. He gets increasingly wrapped up in his secret world and lies to his dad...because if his dad finds out, he’ll make Tim quit.

This is a great setup for an ongoing comic. It’s practical, because it provides endless potential for plotlines, and it’s nicely thematic, because it maps closely onto relatable real-life situations with extracurricular activities:

Tim the drama nerd whose dad thinks he’s playing football and not in the school play;

Tim the closeted-queer kid secretly getting involved in his school’s politically-active Gay-Straight Alliance;

Tim the choir kid whose dad only values making money and wants him to go into the family business (and Tim keeps promising himself he'll give up choir soon, definitely soon, but maybe he'll stay in just a liiiittle longer, because they need him, you see, the last tenor left town, so...);

Tim the computer geek with the sports-obsessed dad (this one’s just canon);

etc. etc.

The extracurricular metaphor works pretty well for Tim’s relationship to vigilantism. Tim's involved in his "extracurricular" because he genuinely thinks it's important and fulfilling, and he values it and wants to be good at it. He idolizes Bruce and Dick because they're good at it. He's been collecting information about it since he was a little kid, and hiding it from his parents because he knows they wouldn't approve. And mayyyybe there's also an element of low-key rebellion against his dad, and maybe that's secretly part of the appeal. And yet also as Tim gets more and more invested, he starts to daydream: maybe I could tell my dad and he'd be proud of me and supportive. But he doesn't, because actually he knows his dad would be upset and angry and make him quit.

And - again, just like with lonely kids and extracurricular hobbies - one of the things that happens is that Tim starts getting his unfilled emotional needs met ... by people he knows through this secret hobby. And people like Bruce and Dick start turning into a surrogate family. Which Tim feels guilty about. And also as Tim gets more and more wrapped up in their world, he has to lie to his dad even more, which means the distance between Tim and his dad gets bigger and bigger and more and more unfixable.

I love this dilemma. It's simple, it's recognizable, it provides endless sources for conflict, and there's no obvious solution! Tim can't tell Jack: he'll make Tim quit! And Tim doesn't want to quit, because he loves choir / art / theater / whatever. Yeah, it’s difficult, and there are challenges, and sometimes he has doubts...but at the end of the day, he cares about it a lot. And everything he values is there, and all the people he admires and cares about are there, and all he wants in the world is to feel like he's one of them and belongs there. So he has to lie, even though he doesn't want to lie, and he feels guilty about it...

...but also he ends up lying more and more.

(Sidenote: I think it's important that Tim chooses to keep lying - Tim's narration often glosses this as "I have to lie to my dad," and that's certainly how it feels to Tim, but this... isn't quite true. He has to lie to his dad, because if he doesn't, his dad will get mad at him and try to stop him, not because he literally has no choice about it.)

Other Reasons Why I Like The "Secret Extracurricular" Interpretation

(tl;dr it complicates not just Tim's relationship with his dad, but also all his other relationships)

Tim's problems have some obvious parallels to Steph and Cass, who both become vigilantes while rejecting their evil supervillain dads. But Jack isn't evil. And that means the Tim-and-Jack relationship is ambiguous and complicated in ways that I like. Steph and Cass can just leave their Bad Dads in prison, and say good riddance, and feel very righteous and triumphant about it! Tim’s more complicated. Tim gets into vigilantism ostensibly out of duty and altruism, but secretly, he's also involved for straight-up selfish self-fulfillment reasons. He's lonely, and bored, and his life feels pointless, but he thinks that Bruce and Dick are cool and amazing and he wants to be a part of the things that they do. When his dad gets jealous of Tim’s relationship to Bruce, and feels like Tim’s looking for a surrogate family, he’s... not wrong.

And the ways in which Jack is not Actionably Bad complicate things from Bruce's POV. If Jack was a straight-up villain, it’d be an easy call to keep in touch when Jack finds out and makes Tim quit...but he’s not a villain, not really. So what do you do? Do you try to surreptitiously stay in touch with Tim even though you’re ignoring his dad’s express wishes and thus forcing Tim to sneak around? Do you respect his dad’s wishes and stay away from Tim even though you have a years-long relationship at this point?

Again: a bit similar to the extracurricular analogy. Say you’re the choir director and you’ve built this whole relationship with a kid in the choir, and you’re an important mentor to him and you care about him etc. etc. etc.... and then right before a big performance, his dad finds out he’s been secretly involved, and yanks him out. How would you react? Well, maybe kind of in some of the ways Bruce reacts. You replace him. You’re annoyed with him. You miss him. You want him to come back. You’re also worried about him. You’re upset with his dad. But also... what should you do, exactly?

Bruce and Alfred and Dick care about Tim as if he were part of their family, but he’s not part of their family, and there’s a lot of interesting tension there.

My Harsher Take

Jack never hits his son. But his temper is a big deal.

In his worst moments, he takes out his anger on Tim’s stuff - wrecking his room, or ripping his TV out of the wall and confiscating it. When he’s worried about Tim, he usually expresses that fear by yelling at him / punishing him / sending him away - threatening to send him to boarding school in Metropolis in Robin III, or threatening to send him to military school abroad in Robin 92, or actually forcing him to go to an all-boys' boarding school post-NML.

This is bad behavior! It is Not Good!

And you can easily connect the dots to a bunch of Tim’s terrible coping mechanisms, like the constant lying and or the fact that Tim’s go-to methods for dealing with interpersonal conflict are 1) repress it and pretend it never happened (most of his fights with Bruce), 2) withdraw from the relationship until he can pretend the conflict doesn’t exist (when his friends get mad at him in YJ, he quits the team for a while), or 3) literally run away from home.

Also, Jack is a Manly Man with firm opinions about how men behave vs. how women behave, and he thinks boys shouldn’t be scared and thinks Tim should date hot girls and pushes Tim to work out and wants him to play football and expresses period-typical sexism, etc. etc. etc. ... and though obviously this wasn’t what the writers had in mind at the time, all of that is certainly interesting to read backwards in the light of Tim as a queer character.

More Disorganized Thoughts on Jack Drake

Tim’s our hero, so we’re naturally more sympathetic to him, but it’s also true that relationships are a two-way street, and Tim doesn’t value any of the things his dad values, either. Jack at various points is shown to care about grades, business, money, boarding schools, archeology, football, a kind of macho bragging-about-dating-hot-women ethos, and a very public and performative kind of caring. Tim tends to respond with discomfort or disinterest or even disgust. When Jack gets on TV to try to rally the government to save his son from No Man’s Land, Tim isn’t touched—he’s mortified. When Jack makes some bad investments and loses money, Jack’s deeply upset and his self-image is majorly impacted, and far from being sympathetic, Tim’s annoyed and kind of contemptuous of the idea that this is a problem. Jack thinks fishing in the early morning and going to tennis matches is a fun father-son activity; Tim finds it exhausting and tedious. And so on.

This means that Tim often longs to be closer to his dad in theory, but this longing is more tied to fantasy than to reality. He rarely seems to enjoy spending time with His-Dad-The-Actual-Person. So for example, when Tim’s deadly ill with the Clench, he has an extremely poignant fever dream about telling his dad the truth and getting hugged…even as he insists in real-life to Alfred and Dick that he does not want them to tell his dad what’s going on.

The same is true of Jack, who IMO genuinely wants to be closer to his son and is continually declaring that he’s going to turn over a new leaf and get closer to his son…and just as continually backs out of activities or loses his temper when faced with spending time with his actual son.

Tim and his dad sadly get along best—by far—in Absence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder situations. When Jack gets kidnapped or is in danger, Tim worries for him (and Tim grieves him deeply when he dies). When Tim disappears or runs away, Jack’s genuinely worried about him. So e.g. they have a really moving emotional reunion and hug when the earthquake hits Gotham, and Tim panics about his dad’s safety and comes running home (and meanwhile Jack’s been panicked about Tim’s safety!). It’s the day-to-day, regular life stuff where they don’t connect.

Jack's written quite differently by different writers. Mostly, Tim's parents are at their least likable in his early appearances and early miniseries (this is where you get, for example, Jack and Janet being nasty at each other while a pained employee looks on, and Tim disappointed to once again get news of where his parents are via postcard - "I guess that sums them up! Never know where they’re going to be–or when–or even how long!” - and Tim alone on school break, and Bruce and Alfred thinking there's something weird going on with Tim's parents, etc. etc.). Jack's more sympathetic but still often unlikable in most of Tim's Robin solo, and he's almost invisible (but positively treated if he does show up) in Tim's team books.

For obvious reasons, Jack's remembered way more sympathetically after his death. Tim's completely devastated by Jack's murder, which he arrives moments too late to prevent, and he basically never gets over it. We see him grieving Jack again and again in Robin, and also in Teen Titans, and also in Resurrection, and again in the Halloween Special, and again in Batman: Blackest Night, and all the way up to the end of Red Robin. Tim also grieves for an extended time over Janet - he hallucinates a happy reunion with her when he's feverish in Contagion, and hallucinates her in the final issue of Robin, and the reveal-your-buried-emotions song in Robin 102 brings up his grief for her too (meanwhile, other characters dance or laugh or otherwise get giddy). Tim’s grief over his parents’ deaths is intense and long-lasting.

I'm not going to clip comic panels because this is long enough, but if you're curious, here's a nice and fairly lengthy compilation of comic panels with Tim and Jack.

If you're interested in a Jack-centric story with a softer-but-still-recognizably-canon take on Jack, I really like the way Jack’s narration is written in the one-shots Heart Humble (set shortly before Jack dies) and Never a Hero (Ra's resurrects him during Brucequest, and Jack's archeology skills turn out to be unexpectedly useful).

#tim drake #jack drake #ask tag #i wrote this ages ago and now i can't remember what i was going to add to it so oh well draft amnesty? sorry for the long wait anon!! <333 #anyway i kept this carefully on topic and virtuously did not derail into talking about the other blorbo but tags are for disorganization SO #for me this kinda half-in half-out place where tim is with the batfamily is SUCH an interesting part of his relationship with dick #and i never stop turning it over in my head #he's kiiiinda replaced dick in that he's robin - but in a very real way he *hasn't* - he's NOT bruce's new son the way jason was #and early!tim makes a BIG POINT of how bruce is not his dad #and i think this relative distance from bruce is a huge factor in why dick is able to build a close relationship with tim at all #(because dick's still pretty estranged from bruce!)#and there's such interesting tension there when dick starts jokingly calling tim ''little brother'' or when villains call them brothers #because they're NOT. increasingly they would both LIKE to be brothers! but dick has zero official standing in tim's life #if tim got hit by a car in his civilian identity bruce and dick wouldn't even be able to visit him without his dad's permission #which jack would be pretty unlikely to give! jack doesn't like or trust bruce!#or like. this is morbid. but if tim died. dick wouldn't even be invited to the funeral you know?#and there's such interesting tension there for me in the contrast between this vigilante relationship that's very very close #but in their civilian lives no one would assume they're anything in particular to each other #anyway the 1st half of tim's robin solo has this thread of tension between tim's family life vs. his vigilante life (plus his mom's death)#and then the second half + red robin has the thread of struggling with grief in a world that's not fair + feeling lost/alone #and these two threads are a big part of my interest in tim as a character! jack's the backdrop that makes a lot of stories possible

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jemmo · 1 year

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ive been thinking a lot about age in the eighth sense, in terms of age gap and the roles of hyung and sunbae and dongsaeng and the behaviours they entail, and the label of the country mouse, and how, with the events of the end of ep 6, they are paralleling jihyun against jaewon’s younger brother with the accident and how I think there’s a crux at the heart of this that is jaewon needing to see jihyun as not his younger brother. and i get that’s weird and kinda yucky considering the nature of the relationship between the two, it’d be very weird if jaewon simply thought of jihyun as a stand in for his familial little brother, but I don’t think it’s like that, it’s not as simple as that.

I think it’s very clear jaewon misses his little brother, plain and simple. and perhaps that extends into missing having a little brother figure in his life, and when I say little brother, I don’t mean familial. that’s why that initial ‘dongsaeng’ messed with our heads in the first place, bc it can be familial and not, so here, and from now on, I mean not. this is not weird incest territory, don’t worry. I think he misses having someone younger, someone to look after. he misses being an older brother. maybe that’s why he so quickly befriends jihyun. attraction aside, maybe he wants someone to care for, and a freshman, a country mouse that knows nothing of the city, being his friend, teaching him city life and uni life, that’s the kind of thing you’d do with a younger brother, and that’s an experience he’s missed. and I think a sense of responsibility also plays into this, bc that’s probably something he feels he lacks after losing his brother. he was supposed to be responsible, supposed to look after him but he couldn’t, and so now he wants to feel like he can be that responsible hyung, he can look after someone, not so much to redeem himself or prove something, but more for himself, to fill an emptiness by fulfilling that role. idk, I don’t think this is something he does consciously, but his body language, his constant touching and how it’s guiding and comforting, at first I thought it was just a desire to touch and filtered through this acceptable closeness between men, especially from someone older. but now i think there is a sense of actual brotherly-ness to it, which I think adds to this confusing want to be close jaewon has that to some degree comes from jihyun filling that younger brother space jaewon has had empty for so long. again, i think people are tentative to approach this topic bc it does get into weird territory, but I think this whole thing is more… how do I say… it’s like how people say you get with someone like your parents, like how often is the phrase “she reminds me of your mom” said between a father and son in movies and tv. it’s not that you want to date your mom, it’s more that you like and value traits that are similar, they bring you comfort bc you’ve literally been raised to be comfortable around someone like that. it’s not incestuous. and I think a similar thing is happening here, even though I don’t think it’s a driving force, I think it’s part of it. which is important, and I like, bc of how this theme progresses.

as the show continues, we see jaewon’s mask slip more and more, and we see jihyun become bolder, which are two important factors that lead into what I think jaewon ultimately needs to realize. jihyun is not his little brother, and he needs to separate the two. there is this obvious path leading from ep 6 where jaewon thinks jihyun’s accident is his little brother all over again and he regresses and distances himself and blames himself, but what he needs to see is that the accident is different. he needs separation. and that comes in the form of jihyun, jihyun becoming bolder and more confident and forthcoming and, most importantly, responsible. at the end of the day, he is not a child, and in that ocean he is responsible for himself just as much, if not more, than jaewon is. he goes into that ocean knowing he’s not the best swimmer and still does it. is he swept up by jaewon and emotions and the kind of heightened vibe of the day? yes. but is it still his decision? yes, and it’s a bit reckless. he can say no to jaewon when he offers to surf and catch the big waves instead of the safety of the shallows where they were before. you’ve seen him bite back and sass and poke and joke with jaewon before, he is not a cowering little mouse (more on that in a sec), and he still agrees, so he has to take responsibility. maybe jaewon was responsible for his little brother but he’s not responsible for jihyun, an adult with their own mind. and jaewon seeing that, that he can’t blame himself when he’s not responsible for anyone here, might just be the thing that helps him get out of that mindset.

and it’s not like jihyun is adverse to this. If anything, I think in this next ep we will hear jihyun blame himself, accept the fact that what he did was maybe a bit stupid and he should’ve thought first. bc we see time and time again jihyun not wanting to be that innocent, naive country mouse. just think about how much he refutes it time and time again, like in that library scene. he doesn’t want to be that person. that’s why he came to the city. It’s why he’s trying new things and being brave, he wants to grow up and be responsible. and I love that this becomes almost a reversal of the classic hyung and dongsaeng roles in later eps, as jihyun becomes more confident while jaewon regresses into himself. jaewon shows his weaker side and jihyun, the younger, looks after him instead. look at ep 6, how he initiates both conversation and physical contact, something we saw jaewon do in earlier eps. I love it both in terms of this theme but also just for romance sake. as an extension of these roles, you expect the older to make the moves and such, but I love that there are equal moments in this show that jaewon gets to be the one getting hit on, be it the scene where jihyun teaches him to draw or calls him cute when he’s drunk. you’d so typically expect to see a hyung doing those things to someone younger, but it shows equality in their relationship that counters those stereotypes in the simple and subtlest ways and I adore it.

this show has a strong theme overall of what’s expected vs how people actually are, be it from drinking etiquette to romance, but just like in that first scene with jihyun’s bar owner, one thing may be expected, but what people actually want, what makes people comfortable, can be something else. and by jihyun so simply not conforming to the country mouse persona initially put on him in such simple but outright ways, he acts as such a great challenge to jaewon, who wears his mask of expectation so frequently. it may be what’s expected, but have you ever considered that it’s not what people actually want? that they might actually want the real you, and all the so-called imperfection of it? bc when does that mask stop being a burden and start being a safety blanket, that shields you from the pain of actually being hurt in a genuine relationship, that hurts more than the pain of pretending. jaewon says over and over again that he’s tired of wearing the mask, but the mask is, ultimately, self inflicted, and as much as you can blame society and parents for expecting things from him, there’s a point when you become an adult where you get to decide for yourself who you are. again, he said it himself, just as he was afraid to leave the safety of the military, he’s afraid to leave the safety of uni, the bubble where what’s expected is clearly defined and can be performed. after that, the rules aren’t as clear. so much more of it depends on you. it’s the process of becoming an adult, of growing up. it’s a process jihyun is on, but jaewon, to be at least, seems further behind in. maybe bc he never got the chance at a fresh start like jihyun and is trapped by preconceived notions the people around him have of him by knowing him for years. maybe it’s bc of the loss of his little brother, and feeling trapped in that time, and a fear of growing up out of that person he was when his brother was there. maybe it’s bc he still feels trapped under his parents thumb, bc despite becoming an adult, you can never really be free of your parents.

I said this before, but it’s just like how they both said they’re jealous of each other, but what they’re jealous of is a preconceived notion of youth and age, not-knowing and knowing, naivety and experience, when again they don’t match these stereotypes. jihyun is not naive, and jaewon doesn’t know everything. Life experience is not all it’s cracked up to be bc it can’t all be good, but knowing nothing isn’t the bliss ignorance is often expressed to be. I’ve rambled on and waxed pathetically poetic long enough about these two to be embarrassing, but as a show that actually involves an age gap, and neither hides away from it nor exploits it for it’s played up romantic tropes, I adore that they let this factor naturally play into the bigger story being told, bc age actually means nothing here, and more than anything, jihyun and jaewon strive to be equals to each other, in their world void of expectations.

#it’s 2am in the morning and I wrote a thing #I don’t even wanna know how many words this actually is but all this stuff has been gnawing at my brain for a while now #so I just had to get out out in a big luscious overly emo ramble #but I’d love to know what you all think about this #bc going into the territory of jihyun replacing jaewon’s little brother has always been weird to me bc of the whole romantic vs familial t #thing but this show seems to be doing something interesting with it and it actually plays into their themes and I think ultimately wants to #convey that it isn’t the case jihyun isn’t a replacement he’s his own whole person and someone in jaewon’s life that only he can be #and he can fill an emptiness that jaewon feels without having to fulfill an empty role #the eighth sense

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