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david-talks-sw · 1 year

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When a Star Wars writer engages with the material but not the narrative.

I'm writing a long post about the Jedi and the clone troopers and there's a whole section that I had to remove because it was too long:

Karen Traviss' take on the Jedi and the clones.

I already wrote about why Karen Traviss' take on the Jedi and Yoda doesn't track with what George Lucas had established in his narrative of the Prequels. Since then, I've been able to do more research.

It's no secret that one of the reasons Traviss listed for criticizing the Jedi in the Expanded Universe books she wrote is their treatment of the clones (or at least what she understood it to be).

In 2008, she wrote a now-deleted blog post about it (it was really long, so I'm only including the part relevant to my point, if you want the full context you can look it up, this is old stuff).

So if you ask me, in the above quote, Traviss is essentially doing the equivalent of saying:

"Batman is a psycho elitist who beats up the mentally ill and indoctrinates kids, turning them into child soldiers for his unending crazy vigilante war on crime, and if you can't recognize that then you scare the living crap out of me."

Like... you can argue that, and a couple of comics have argued that.

But by and large, the general consensus is that Batman is a superhero, the Robins are his sons and daughter, and the "mentally ill" are in fact the Joker and Two-Face aka mass murderers.

So if you make that argument, that's you applying your real-life values and conclusions to a narrative that deliberately doesn't acknowledge those points, in-universe, in order to tell the story it wants to tell.

It's counting on your suspension of disbelief, defined as "the avoidance—often described as willing—of critical thinking and logic in understanding something that is unreal or impossible in reality, such as something in a work of speculative fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoying its narrative."

The Jedi accepting the clones and the clones being slaves isn't a "delicate point". It's barely a point at all!

It's never addressed in the film (because of course it isn't, the Prequels are about Anakin and the Republic, not the clones).

It's only addressed once by Slick, an unreliable narrator, in The Clone Wars.

That's it. Hell, in 2008, when The Clone Wars writer Henry Gilroy was asked to comment on the relationship between clones and Jedi, he explicitly said he'd "rather not get into" that particular point.

I recently got Mythmaking: Behind the Scenes of 'Attack of the Clones' and nowhere is that detail touched on by Lucas at any point.

Nobody wants to touch on that point with a 10ft pole, because it's not relevant to the story.

So while Traviss acknowledges the Jedi are fictional characters, she doesn't follow that thread through to the end by acknowledging that fictional characters don't have free will, they must abide by the story and the whim of the writer.

She's engaging with the material, but refusing to engage with the narrative. She's having her cake and eating it too.

My reason for saying all this is that in the book Star Wars on Trial, she elaborates on her thought process upon discovering this detail.

Shortly before to this, she acknowledges twice that she knew nothing about Star Wars, beside seeing the original films in her youth.

Another writer who saw the new films and saw Mace Windu argue against there being a war...

... the worry on his face at the prospect of the Jedi being thrown at the Separatists...

... and the sheer melancholy on Yoda's face upon announcing the Clone War had begun...

... might have instead wondered how the Jedi, so opposed to war, could've ended up being generals.

Because while we don't see the Jedi openly protest the use of the clones in the film... they're not exactly giddy about it, either. All they can do is watch powerlessly as it gets voted by the Senate.

"The Jedi are there. But the Jedi aren't really allowed to be involved in the political process. They're there, but they can't suddenly step up and say, "No, no. You can't do that." They have to let the political process go." - George Lucas, Attack of the Clones, Commentary #2, 2002

We also don't see them take on the role of generals, either.

We only see them begrudgingly lead troops on Geonosis, specifically.

But they're not referred to as "generals" yet.

Another writer might have imagined a scene where after Geonosis, Mace Windu talks to Palpatine thinking the Jedi will go back to their roles as diplomats, and that what we saw in Attack of the Clones was a one-time thing to save Obi-Wan, but Palpatine politely goes:

"Ha! No. Didn't you hear? The Senate was so impressed by your performance on Geonosis that they voted to make you all generals in the GAR. Now, get back to the front."

Another writer might've elected to write them having that "big moral debate" she mentions.

Instead, Traviss immediately jumps on the "Jedi are elitists" train.

Because her personal experience with the military makes her sympathize with the clones and her personal belief is that - while the story may frame the Jedi as "the good guys" - nobody is that good a guy, real life people aren't that pure and selfless. There's gotta be something off about them and aHA! That's what it is!

That's her choosing to take that line of thought instead of one more in-line with the story, because she perceives it as unrealistic. But like... Star Wars isn't real life, it's a fairy tale.

That's like saying:

"The hunter in Little Red Riding Hood commits animal cruelty by cutting the Wolf open. He should've let nature take its course, the wolf earned that meal fair and square. If you think the hunter should've saved Red Riding Hood and her Grandma, then clearly you're the kind of monster who thinks one life is worth more than others."

... no?

The story's narrative clearly portrays the wolf as the villain of the tale and frames the Hunter saving Red Riding Hood as a good thing.

Disagreeing with that narrative is absolutely fine, but anybody who acknowledges the wolf is the bad guy in the story isn't automatically an animal hater and/or a bad person. Just because you say "the wolf is the villain" doesn't mean that you think that, in real life, killing wolves for shits and giggles is good.

Conversely, the narrative of the Prequels asks you to suspend your disbelief and not consider the implications that having a clone army entails. Because the use of clones doesn't have a direct impact on either Anakin or the Senate's stories.

Edit: I finished the post this one here originally spun out of!

You can find it here:

#Karen Traviss #clone troopers #jedi order #in defense of the jedi

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curlygirlybitchachos · 8 months

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Okay so I'm here with an update! Yeay!

Just finished my little Shiny helmet, working on 332nd company trooper helmet.

I'm in love with Howzer's helmet to be honest, it was simple but that colour! In love, definitely in love.

I think the next set will be the bad batch or the commandos (commandos are really getting into my head), because right now I'm reading Karen Traviss Republic Commando Order 66 and guys, I have a lot favorite in Star Wars, and the clones are my weak point. But Fi. I can't. I fall in love, I can't get up, screaming, crying, throwing up. I don't care about anyone, I will marry that man.

So yeah, I think Commandos next.

#star wars #clone wars #commander cody #clone trooper boil #clone trooper waxer #shiny trooper #captain howzer #501st battalion #332nd company #commander fox #embroidery #never ending project #republic commando #fi skirata #karen traviss

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canopiancatboy · 8 months

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Clone Commando Omega Squad, in their first engagement deployed on Qiilura. If you haven't read the Republic Commando series by Karen Traviss, stop and do so. It breaks modern canon but who cares, my boys matter more

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ranahan · 1 month

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I just read the Republic Commando: Hard Contact and Republic Commando: Triple Zero novels by Karen Traviss. Republic Commando is Legends now, but here are a few points that struck me about arguments I’ve seen go back and forth here on tumblr. Spoilers for the books!

Several mentions of entire batches of brothers “disappearing” for minor variances & clones being more afraid of the kaminoans than their training sergeants. Kal Skirata drunkenly breaking into tears over the poor boys. Very clear that in Traviss’s books, clones were being decommissioned.

Several mentions of clones dying in live fire exercises on Kamino before being deployed & the training sergeants standing by and doing nothing.

There’s a blurb of a retired commando, chronological age 23, biological age 60. Again, in Traviss’s books, the artificial ageing doesn’t stop when the clones reach adulthood. The main characters are also described as visibly ageing between the two books.

Pretty chilling description of the kind of brainwashing that you believe because you don’t have any reason not to when your entire life so far has lined up with it. I would completely believe these boys could execute Order 66 without the chips & all I could do would be to empathise with them.

Troopers telling their concerned jedi to not worry their pretty little head about what happens to dead troopers. Later a reinforcing mention of no bodybags needed in the GAR.

Vau nearly killing a trooper in training & making the troopers beat each other into a pulp in training.

So again, Republic Commando are Legends now but if anyone wonders where the fandom got the idea that these things happen, here’s your answer. They aren’t fandom inventions.

Other notes and personal opinions:

I mostly enjoyed Hard Contact. There were some bits near the end that fell a little flat, but overall an enjoyable military action/military science fiction novel.

Triple Zero on the other hand, not so much. The pregnancy storyline was just icky. Both in how Etain herself makes it her entire raison d’être, how she makes it the reason for why Darman now has a future, and the lack of consent on Darman’s part. She intentionally gets pregnant without ever discussing anything with him (they’ve been together for two whole weeks at this point), whether he wants kids at all, wants them with her, wants them in the middle of a war, or sees having children in the same light as she does. She’s had the most superficial of introductions to Mandalorian culture and has no idea whether or to what degree the clones or Darman as an individual share those notions—given that they probably have an understandably complicated relationship with Mandalorian culture and especially the notions of children, parents, and legacy. For all we know at this point in the series she could have completely misconstrued the whole thing. But there she goes, and decides that this is how she will fix everything and give Darman a future: a genetic legacy to outlive him.

The force-accelerated pregnancy reads like a bad fan fiction and the whole “go undercover to hide the pregnancy” reads like a Victorian novel.

Etain feels like an odd choice for a point of view character in a military science fiction story. She’s aggressively the-girl-next-door, pointedly unremarkable and ordinary. I guess the point is that readers could have a regular person’s point of view, with which to contrast the commando mindset, and to whom things can be naturally explained without infodumping. But it goes overboard and makes her seem incompetent and immature, so you start wondering what the hell is she even doing in the story or on a battlefield or what does anyone see in her.

There are sexist attitudes straight from the planet Earth. It’s in men and females, how Etain and other female characters are seen through their sex first and other characteristics second, and how they are always “other” in comparison to men. But it’s not just the women, it’s young men—the clones—too where I get this vibe. It’s very bioessentialist. There seems to be this underlying thread of pairing up and reproducing being the most valuable thing a person can do with their life. Which again, seems like an odd choice for a thematic storyline in a military science fiction novel. Like, this is not what it said on the tin.

Some of the tactical/counterterrorism side in Triple Zero feels inauthentic to me as well. There’s too much being bad boys for shock value and too little professional soldiering for my tastes anyway. But I don’t kick in doors professionally so what do I know.

No sense of numbers for galactic economy. Exhibit A: Qiilura.

Lastly, fandom: can we get more Corr? This is an EOD trooper who gets both of his hands blown off early in the war, gets stuck in a logistics centre duty while waiting for better prosthetics, still determined to get back into action to fight alongside his brothers, gets accidentally adopted by some commandos, and makes a career change from disabling fiddly explosives to kicking in doors. A round of appreciation for Corr!

#republic commando spoilers #the clones #clone troopers #star wars clone troopers #republic commando #the grand army of the republic #grand army of the republic #karen traviss #repcomm #repcomm spoilers #spoilers #republic commando novels #republic commando: hard contact #republic commando: triple zero #star wars meta #sexism in media

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715thattackbattalion · 1 year

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#republic commando #star wars #clone wars #starwarstheclonewars #clones #clonetrooper #order 66 #karen traviss #ordo #clone commando Fi #darman #kal skirata #boba fett #jango fett

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mandalorianhistorian · 4 months

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expanded universe mando females vs Disney Mando females a short post on actual diverse women vs lazily written my thoughts

(little reminder EU mando culture was written by a women and disneys and clone wars was written by a man)

what makes a mandalorian women in the expanded universe

calling A mandalorian woman, weak or small, is a huge insult to them, so start running if you can. Mandalorian women come in all kinds of ways, human, alien, any shape, height, etc., but for them, strength, honor, and loyalty are of the utmost regard. Mandalorian women do the same as their fellow men, equal in all parts of Mandalorian life. Women of the Manda can raise children adopted or born by themselves or with a partner. Mando women do look after their home wherever the nomads may travel next and raise their kids, but that responsibility isn't just for women; their partner must always help, regardless of species or sex. Mandalorian women are feared by many, especially by their own brothers. Mandalorian men are not scared by many things, but Mandalorian women terrify them Deeply. Mandalorian women in Mando society and culture are the same as the men. We have many moments in the books, games, and comics with amazing women. There are too many to name, but the most known would be Shae Vizla, Mirta gev, Rav Bralor, Parja Bralor. The stories that have these women are amazingly written by many authors but mainly Karen traviss.

why the Disney mandalorian women are not the same as EU mando women

the mandalorian women of Disney do not have the same values or honor as the EU mandalorians instead they seem to have a system that has royalty and hierarchy which was never present in the EU and lets not forget Disney seems to have death watch and the pacifists as the main vocal point when in the EU we have many different groups but Disney mandao women seem to have no value of equality and work. When we do see them they seem angry bitter hostile and just nasty to mandalorian men and the main one we have seen the most is bo katan and by god that women is not fit to be a mandalorian apparently shes the princess which is like how on earth do nomads go to that but that's a topic for another day but it seems Disney has also forgotten alien mandalorian women we see quit a few in the expanded universe. it really just baffles me how terrible their female mandos are. Mandalorian culture has been diverse, and they took it 50 steps back in modern Disney star wars.

difference in Armour non gendered and gendered

The armor in Mandalorian culture is shaped in many ways, but men and women do not have a certain design fixated on them in the expanded universe; they can share the same look or wear any design armor shape, Kama cloak jetpack with their armor, or any other add-on they want for themselves.

expanded universe Armour

the armor of the EU Yes, there is way more in SWTOR, so many helmets and gear, but men and women both wear them; there is no special so-called lady armor for female Mandalorians.

Disney Armour

For Disney Mandalorian women, they seem to all have the same helmet design; however, it is only seen on female Mandalorians putting on a gendered look, which is utterly silly for this culture.

thanks for reading :3 this is just my view as i grew up with Karen traviss writing and work so seeing it destroyed just makes me sad so these are just my quick thoughts.

#mandalorian culture #mandalorians #mandalorian #star wars eu #star wars expanded universe #the mandalorian #female mandalorians #star wars #star wars culture #karen traviss #dave filoni #anti dave filoni

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brazen-kenobi · 8 months

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“Okay, fall back. At least it makes us look convincing, like we’re retreating because we’re in trouble.”

“Sir, we look convincing because we are in trouble.” Kenobi gave him that look. One day, Rex thought, he’d get a laugh out of the Jedi.

- Karen Traviss, Star Wars: The Clone Wars

#I wish we could’ve seen more interaction between them #sw books #star wars: the clone wars #karen traviss #Karen miller #Obi wan kenobi #captain rex #Star Wars books #Star Wars quotes

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ice-6caydesqueen · 11 months

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All the mando gay lesbian bi couples/characters eu/swtor

They are mostly forgotten by Disney as they hate people who are just people

Bevin x Medrit gay ( fanart ) after return of the jedi vong war legacy of the force

Mirta gev hinted at bisexual (boba fetts grandaughter) legacy of the force

Lane vizla Lesbian (cousin of shae vizla) swtor old republic

Rass ordo bisexual (clan ordo) swtor old republic

In the eu and swtor mandos are equal in gender and species they do not care who you love.

But if you harm their children or spouses you better start running

Miss Karen traviss made all this possible

@nedo21god :3

#mandalorian #mandalorian culture #old republic #swtor #legacy of the force #star wars couples #karen traviss #rass ordo #lane vizla #mirta gev #star wars eu #star wars expanded universe #mandalorians #goran bevin #medrit vasuur

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david-talks-sw · 1 year

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George Lucas & Karen Traviss' visions of Star Wars are NOT the same...

So whenever I come across this image:

I keep in mind that it's from a book written by Karen Traviss, who is a brilliant author (I adored Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines and Sacrifice) but whose stance on Anakin, Yoda & the Jedi and Star Wars morality is this:

As opposed to George Lucas' stance on Anakin, Yoda & the Jedi and Star Wars' morality, which is this:

In a children's story about Light and Dark, good and evil, selflessness vs selfishness, George Lucas marks the Empire as absolutely evil and the Rebels as absolutely good, in the Original Trilogy.

In the Prequels, the situation is more complex (the Jedi are drafted into a war and forced to do things they know they shouldn't be doing, but have to for the greater good; the Sith bring about order to a corrupt government) but the morality stays the same... the selfish, greedy Sith are absolutely evil and the selfless, compassionate Jedi are absolutely good.

That's George's thesis.

And, as a character, Yoda's function is to deliver that thesis. It's no wonder why Lucas treats Yoda's words as absolutely correct:

Yoda is Lucas' mouthpiece in the Prequels, his self-insert.

George Lucas' narrative frames Yoda as objectively right.

So when Karen Traviss questions the Jedi, particularly Yoda's character and wisdom, she's disagreeing with George Lucas' thesis.

Which is fair. Traviss, is a different person than Lucas, she's an ex-journalist with a more "grey" view of the world and a different philosophy re: fiction aimed at children. "Death of the author" and all that. Again, fair enough.

And if you like Travis' interpretation and philosophy more than George's, if her read resonates with you more... also fair enough.

But the EU is not a reliable source on Lucas' vision.

I've talked about this in MUCH more detail here, but if you do care about George Lucas' vision, then maybe don't draw from the Expanded Universe, which includes content written by authors who expressly disagree with him, like Traviss.

Sounds logical, but for some reason people will read the above-posted Dooku quote and treat it as reflective of Lucas' vision, when it's not the case.

George Lucas' Dooku doesn't have an issue with Yoda or the Jedi (at least not openly, as Darth Tyranus, the Sith Lord he wants them all dead). Dooku's issue is with the Senate and the Republic.

George Lucas specifically added that most Jedi share Dooku's concerns. Before he's revealed to be a mass-murdering, Sith who enslaves neutral systems, the Jedi think he makes a good point and are even reluctant to consider him a murder suspect.

But let's not start saying that Lucas' Prequels are meant to be about "the Jedi's failure" and "Dooku being right that the Jedi are corrupt.

Because that's not the case.

If that's how you see them, great. It's certainly how Traviss saw them. To each their own, authorial intent be damned.

But it's not what they were about, to Lucas. Stating the contrary is... I dunno, lying? Rewriting history?

It's as if I got hired to write a Lord of the Rings prequel seen from Gandalf's POV. And y'know what, maybe I don't like Gandalf. So I write him as a scheming asshole going “myahahahah, fuck hobbits! I’m gonna let them keep the One Ring so a bunch Nazgûl will swoop through the Shire and murder them!” and suddenly, everyone starts writing posts about the notion that “Growing up is realizing that Tolkien always intended for Gandalf to be the secret villain of LOTR!” as if that had always been the case and I didn't just reframe him that way retroactively.

Finally, I'd also encourage you to read @rendar-writes' well-made point here about the fact that, while claiming she "doesn't give the answers", Traviss nonetheless shows a clear anti-Jedi bias.

#There’s a difference between interpreting the story the way you want to #and saying that your interpretation’s is what the author originally intended to convey #star wars #george lucas #karen traviss #anakin skywalker #jedi order #dooku #meta #collection of quotes #lucas quotes #expanded universe

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thebisexualmandalorian · 14 days

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Inviting controversy by asking a controversial question which you may feel free to ignore but. Thoughts on Karen Traviss' Star Wars books, from the old EU? I assume you've got Opinions

BOY DO I

I'll probably forget to include everything, but I've gone on an hour long Rant before and I'll do it again lmao

Okay, so the good. There is good in these books and I'll drag it out with teeth and claws if I have to.

I love Kal Skirata. You can crucify me for that if you want to, but as a daddy issues having bitch, I want him to be my dad. He's a wonderfully flawed character, and he owns up to those flaws. He's made mistakes and he's grown and he knows he isn't perfect but by god, he'll try for his boys. He fights tooth and nail to protect them from what he can, and what he can't, he'll go through hell with them (literally, I can't remember the exact wording, but it's said in Hard Contact I believe, that any training he puts his men through, he does it himself first). He's overprotective because there's so much he can't protect them from, and it's clear that he loves them with all his heart.

The clone and GAR and Mando culture building. This is a grayer area for me because there is a lot of internalized bullshit KT is dealing with that I'll talk about later, but! We wouldn't have nearly the background we do for these cultures without her books. I love most of what she did with it, from the military worldbuilding to the Mandalorian culture and the different facets of it we see through the eyes of different characters. And the language! Mando'a isn't a heavily developed conlang, but the tools are there, and it makes sense within the world. And we have music! We have songs.

I love the characters. There are gray areas, no one is perfect, and they all get down and dirty when things call for it. They love each other deeply and make good and bad decisions, they're realistic. The relationships are tender and gentle, and I love the interactions between everyone, the loyalty and the devotion, and the overarching feeling of grief because we know how this ends.

The clones! I love them! They are wonderful and well developed, and I love hearing their thoughts on everything, and their bond with one another and those around them. I'm not coherent about this one because I think about them for five seconds and start making high pitched noises like an overexcited dog.

The descriptions are so deliciously visceral, and I love reading them.

The bad:

Another unpopular opinion: I loathe Vau. Hate him utterly. He's a good character but a deeply horrible man, and this might be my trauma talking but it's my opinion and I'll die on this goddamn hill. He's verbally and physically abusive, and sees absolutely no consequences (or even reproach) for it in the narrative, aside from Kal breaking his nose, and he deserved so much worse than that.

The misogyny. Oh, Karen honey. That internalized misogyny got you good, huh? The blatant way she treats Etain and Besany through the mouths of other characters is... oof. There's a little bit of reversal, but it's still pretty bad. Even though they're "not like other girls," it's pretty obvious that Karen has a lot of issues with womanhood. It was the 2000s, so I'll let some of it be with the caveat that the 2000s were pretty damn misogynistic in general, but goddamn. Also, on that note, she seems to be fighting herself on whether Mandos have a gender neutral society or not? Like, she'll say on one page that there's no difference between men and women, and then go on to say that men go out and fight but women stay to guard the home and raise the kids. I am putting my head in my hands.

On a related note, Karen is the Jedi who hurt you in the room with us right now? Why do you hate the Jedi so damn much? It doesn't make any sense in the story and it doesn't make sense on a metatextual level. Bro, are you good?

Anyway! Yes! I have many opinions about this book series and I'm sure I forgot to cover everything! Please feel free to ask more questions!

#republic commando #karen traviss

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coupleofdays · 20 days

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In the Republic Commando books, author Karen Traviss gives some fairly detailed descriptions of how Jedi can use the Force to heal injuries. There is one description, in the book Order 66: A Republic Commando Novel, that I find particularly interesting.

The clone commando named Fi has suffered a severe brain injury, and the Jedi Bardan Jusik has been using the Force to help the healing process. When the Mandalorian doctor Mij Gilamar analyzes Fi's recovery, he notices something very interesting, namely that Fi has heightened levels of progesterone (he even jokingly asks the clone if he's pregnant). Then the following exchange takes place:

Jusik rejoiced silently at Fi's improved mood. "Is the progesterone a problem, Mij'ika?"

"No," said Gilamar. "Every human's got progesterone. Males can't make testosterone without it. But it might explain how you've been able to get Fi's brain to repair itself— it's been shown to aid healing in brain trauma. Your Force shenanigans might be stimulating secretion."

So, according to Traviss, a Jedi can use the Force, consciously or unconsciously, to stimulate the secretion of progesterone. This inevitably leads me to wonder: Could a Jedi alter the secretion of other hormones as well? Other sex hormones, perhaps? Could a Jedi use the Force to perform other... therapies that might require altering the balance of various hormones in a body?