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olderthannetfic · 1 month

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I would never defend them - at least not the ones who actually harass people - but I do wonder if there's some antis out there who genuinely come from good intentions.

Super serious and genuinely shameful confession: I'm an ex-radfem. I went into those circles in the first place bc I liked some of Dworkin's works. And while I obviously do not recommend anyone ever get into radical feminism, I will say this: If haven’t been down that very specific rabbit hole of ideology yourself - especially in online settings - you cannot even begin to imagine how fucking INSANELY pervasive the ideas are. Even if you've been a victim of radfem hate, if you haven't been a radfem yourself, I'm truly inclined to think you have no idea what those spaces are actually like. Sorta like how if you've been a victim of fundie hate, that is awful and it fucking sucks, but if you haven't been raised fundie yourself, you really don't know what it's like to be IN those circles, just a VICTIM of those circles.

I hate to throw around words like “hivemind” or “groupthink” but it is that. I went into radfem spaces thinking that I was above believing certain things that they believed but I clearly wasnt, it is so fucking toxic and that’s why i’ll never believe that “TIRF” (trans inclusionary radfem - something I tried and failed to be) can be a real thing. And then these same people have the audacity to call trans rights a cult, but you know, it's whatever.

Obviously terfs are more serious in the "real world" than antis are, but there are some parallels in the way that both groups feel about kink/porn discourse. (No, I'm not saying that antis "believe TERF ideology" or anything, but I do think in the specific context of sex stuff, there ARE alot of parallels.)

I am not defending radfems either, but I will say that I got into it because I was genuinely worried about things such as: PH and how they just steal content from sex workers, the abuse going on in the sex work industry, the phenomenon of young girls who are waiting to turn 18 so they can start an OF account, romance novels that were not marketed as dark but should've been considering they straight up romanticized abuse and rape.

I really do think that most antis are of a similar mindset -- people, typically young traumatized people (not trying to pull the neurodivergent minor card, it's just that statistically speaking, that label CAN describe most antis) who are truly worried that, like, idk, some young girl is gonna watch Twilight or read Reylo fic and think that an overly possessive bf is #goals. Again, I'm NOT trying to defend this ideology or line of thinking at all, I'm just saying that i DO think most of them really don't realize the harm that they're doing, and actually think they're doing good.

I actually kinda feel bad for them, but like my earlier comparisons, I feel bad for them in the same way I feel bad for fundies or evangelicals. I feel bad that they hold such an awful ideology while thinking they're doing good things, but I stop feeling bad once they start ACTUALLY hurting people and I'll always feel worse for the people who they harass and harm.

And like I'd never want to be a radfem again and I hate that I was one once but, between myself and your ~10k (ballpark estimate lol) followers, I think that my time spend in that belief system gave me some really good insight to cult mindsets, which was something I didn't understand before or have much sympathy towards, and I've emerged with a lot of empathy for people who ARE stuck in bad ideologies. I could've been born into a hate group. I could've been preyed on by alt-right people and sucked in that way. Instead, it was reading radblr during quarantine that got me. Before I fell into it, I just mindlessly hated everyone in that group, and now I just feel sorry for them (still without justifying any of their actions).

It's honestly a really, really, complicated thing to try to grapple with. Anyone, yes including you reading this, can be brainwashed into hate. The second you think you're too good for that, you've lost.

This was more of a vent than a discourse ask. I guess my tl;dr is: I hate antis, terfs, fundamentalists, etc, as much as the next guy, but I also recognize that some of those people truly truly do think they're on the right side of history, and some of those people have been sucked into an ideology they never would've believed otherwise if not for xyz factors. While hate groups will never deserve pity, there are some vulnerable people in hate groups who for some reason believe they're doing good, and I wish I could help all of those people.

Yeah, I assume many antis are perfectly sincere in their desire to protect people. They're just wrong about what will work.

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lily-orchard · 20 days

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Could you tell me why Zutara is so hated? Nobody can really give me an answer

The answer to why a ship is hated is usually the fanbase. And it's absolutely the reason here.

Zutara's fanbase has never really taken the fact that their obvious crackship didn't turn out to be canon very well. They threw a decade-long tantrum about it, writing spiteful fanfics, hateful artwork, and harassing anyone who remarked on the fact that it was never really going to happen.

Even today they just can't get the fuck over it and have been coping and seething for two decades now.

It doesn't help that their shrieking and the things they do with the characters end up affecting later adaptations. The reason Katara is so milquetoast in the film and the remake is because Zutara's fanbase spent years trying to invalidate her relationship with Aang by hyper-inflating her "motherly" character traits and that just dominated the discourse.

The only real argument in their favor has been that Zuko and Katara have a lot of parallels, but the point of a parallel is that they never intersect. This is why you never see two characters who are extremely similar get together.

It's just one constant string of tantrums and cope and delusions that makes it the most reviled ship by everyone else. In the same way the behaviour of Reylos is largely what made that ship a plague nobody else would dare touch.

Grey DeLisle can make a joke about royal inbreeding and everyone laughs and goes "THIS WOMAN!" Nobody would dare make a joke about Zutara because you WILL get harassed.

Ships become hated entirely on the backs of their fanbases.

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piglet26 · 4 months

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Reylo. The Perfect Star Wars Fairytale.

"What if your sort of soulmate in the force was your enemy? Circumstance pits them against each other, but the force bonds them together. They understand each other almost from a point of view of fate and yet fate has made them enemies"

Reylo isn't the classic fairytale, but that's a good thing! The two of them display something unique about love and connection. They both provide the other one with an opportunity to move past their trauma and heal their pain by relating to someone, being accepted, being forgiven; ultimately having a true connection which makes you a better person. That's Star Wars! Yes, Star Wars is about friendship, adventure and the hero's arc, but's also about the power of love. That's what drove Anakin to the dark side and what brought him back to the light. Embracing love and attachment was the lesson Luke had to teach the Jedi. Romanticism isn't a mistake of horny Reylo fans, it's a rejection of the lessons Star War had to teach by young and old men who claim to want to protect it the most.

Kylo Ren is aware of Rey before Rey is aware of Kylo Ren, but both recognize the other one immediately. Rey has dreamed of Ben, when Ben killed the head of The Knights of Ren, Rey felt a chill on Jakku. Kylo Ren feels her awakening in the Force and senses that they are connected somehow. (I wanna know what the full scene was cause he is like studying her)

Reylo is not abusive, but I do understand why people are hesitant to endorse them. However, people tend to project their own problems and situations on other people and that's probably what's going on here. THEY ARE AT WAR! It's not personal. First thing Rey tries to do is shoot him (natural reaction) so he froze her (natural reaction). He's trying to get information for his side of the war and attempts to do this without making her experience too much pain. He pushed her into a tree... she did try to shoot him. Again. She tried to shoot him three times now that I think of it. He invaded her mind! Luke did the same thing to Kylo Ren. Is Luke abusive? Any time any of the Jedi have peaked inside someone's mind has been abusive then. "You know I can take whatever I want." Yes, I can access your mind you know that so why not just give me the information I require....that is what he is saying. People read so much into everything and yet did so with no logic. The only thing I can say is the movie goes out of it's way to show a parallel experience between Rey and Poe in their interrogation. Moving on.

As Ren studies a sleeping Rey he can sense their connected somehow. Rey isn't just some resistance fighter, like Poe, she's more than that.

While Rey is initially fearful of Ren, the moment he reveals himself she just confused, curious and attracted (as we all were). It's significant that the first person he reveals himself to is Rey. Kylo Ren wears the mask to idolize his grandfather and project not only strength but dehumanize himself. He reassures her that he doesn't know where her friends are,

In the sound mix is a heartbeat. You hear a heartbreak when she is connecting with Ren in the Interrogation scene. Rey remember this moment in the novel, "Even as [Kylo] callously rifled through her mind, he had somehow revealed his own. Rey found herself in his mind even as he invaded hers. She felt his rage...But she also felt his hurt, and his loneliness. And his fear...Kylo had retreated at finding Rey in his head - had practically fled from her. But that had not been the end of that strange, sudden connection. She had seen more - far more...It was as if his training had become hers, unlocking and flinging open door after door in her mind"

Reylo is a pairing where both the hero are villain are given a bond where hurting the other is as good as hurting yourself. Even in their duel on the First Order base, Kylo doesn't want to kill her and she's defending herself for the most part.

Meanwhile, Ren’s emotions begin to fixate on Rey. Though they could not predict them, the two begin to gain insights into each other though these strange connections, and Ren lowers his guard. Their forceskypes are a safe space for one another. It's established very quickly that they can't hurt each other. Rey wakes up in her hut on Ahch-to while Kylo is in his own quarter. The Force connects the two and both panic. Rey tries to shoot Kylo, who tries to manipulate Rey via mind trick. They now have to deal with one another in ways that weren't their first instinct. What’s happening here is something extraordinary even within the logic of the Star Wars universe it seems, and Kylo recognizes this. His behavior and observations betray a sense of innocent fascination rather than an ulterior motive.

Feeling somewhat safe with Rey, Ren no longer tries to hide his feelings of pain and misery, and, in turn, their Force-bonding intensifies in strength and rawness. Rey being increasing disillusioned by Luke and his feelings of the Jedi begins to open herself up to understand the person she wants to just hate.

This stylistic choice crops up plenty more times throughout the movie, communicating that they are one half of each other.

Kylo Ren has something to teach Rey as much as he is taking these moments to try to be understood by her. Rey is similarly stuck by her childhood. Stuck in the idea her parents could come back, stuck in the idea that she was wanted or not wanted. As Kylo says to her “Your parents threw you away like garbage.......It’s your greatest weakness," Ren call Rey out in a way no one else can because he's been inside her head. Yes, Ren is harsh, but he wants her to grow up in this scene. His logic is flawed but in pulling away from your past, your identity and your parental figures you can become a fully formed individual. Ren tries to kill it, slash it and cut himself off from it when he needs to make peace with it.

We still crave affection not matter the pain we experience. Kylo’s many years of loneliness and reaching out to an inanimate object show just how desperate he is. He is desperate for a connection. And right now, Darth Vader is all that he has. He's never had a peer.

Rey is resilient, independent, a hard worker, intelligent, passionate, dedicated and yet she too is desperately lonely.

Ben sees apart of himself in Rey and they identify with one another. Rey, in Kylo's mind, is more than just a romantic interest. Rey is a refuge and purpose. Rey is a chance to be unglued...... to progress past his parental figures.

What's interesting though is that Ben/Kylo Ren is nurturing to Rey. When she is at her most vulnerable, listening to Rey’s confession of her greatest weakness, her fear, her attempt to confront this fear, her disappointment in finding no answer and finally her acute loneliness; he just listens to her and then let's her know that he's there.

"Luke should be the one nurturing Rey, and it's actually Kylo that is” - Daisy Ridley

Rey and Kylo are once again in their own carved out, ‘isolated’ auditory space, (and the audience is sucked in with them) while the outside world is again blocked out. In this moment both characters are free from light, dark, war, conflict, sides, enemies and they are safe with one another. When the force theme plays over their connection (as they share visions of one another), they and we the audience, feel that this union is right, desirable and destined.

What's interesting is when Uncle Luke catches the naughty teenager "having sex" He was no longer just a vision in Rey’s mind eyes. This looks like a beautiful image to the audience and yet Luke’s reactions are disapproval and anger. Rey displaces a lot of her own anger regarding rejection/abandonment onto Luke. She identifies with Kylo and now she's aligning herself with him. It's understanding. I understand your pain, I can actually feel it and now I'm going to defend you from those who hurt you. She get's so much agency in defending someone else. This was step moving past her own trauma.

Rey's belief in Kylo does pay off. Her faith and belief, to the point she puts her life in his hands empower him to finally stand up to his abuser in a way he was never able to do for himself. He kills Snoke not only to only protect her, but protect her from being abused and corrupted as he once was. They both are able to confront the others childhood trauma and find strength in doing so.

Where their scene in the hut is an emotional union which brings a sense of peace, their scene in throne room, when they’re teaming up physically, signifies a sense of power. The film in so many ways tells us that Rey and Kylo's union creates balance, peace, power and beauty.

What Kylo proposes in the Throne Room is balance, which is what Rey and Kylo/Ben are meant to represent. Neither of them are simply the light or the dark, both have elements of those symbols within them. After he kills Snoke it's like he said, "Right. That's done. Everything I've inherited.... the light vs the dark......everything I've struggled with.......let's just move on."

Kylo knows that he and Rey are different because he has a better understanding of the past and the Force. Kylo knows he and Rey are the future. Adam Driver says this, “The center of this story is Rey and Kylo Ren. They stand on the opposite sides but the boundary in between is very thin. There are light and dark inside both of them. Actually, they are not far apart. They are the other side of each other.”

They are the most powerful two in the universe. He creates an “us vs them” dynamic Ren’s proposal, however, is appealing—and logical. Let's be honest it's a system so dichotomous and one that has never been balanced.

Rey rejects this because she has healthy attachments. Rey loves Finn, Rey has a connection to Leia/Luke and Rey has romanticized the Resistance since she was a little girl. She feels compelled to fight for these things. Even if she didn't have those attachments, she wants Ben. She wants to stand in the sun with him.

This rejection hurts him, but he's confused by it. He can read her emotions, they're so connected mentally, he knows she wants to take his hand. He doesn't understand why she didn't. He doesn't understand why when he was knocked out she didn't kill him.

Adam Driver -"Then he had been forging this maybe-bond with Rey, and it kind of ends with the question in the air: is he going to pursue that relationship, or when the door of her ship goes up, does that also close that camaraderie that they were maybe forming?"

If anything he doubles down even harder into his sense of belonging with her. What they have he has longed for this since childhood. Rey doesn't give up on him, she makes a point of saying she'll wait for him in the novels. She can't be with him as is. He needs to come to terms with his childhood, work through the trauma and accept it.

Kylo does indeed act out on everyone around him. He is cold, hostile, anti-social and pessimistic. But who does he change for? Rey. She's going to be patient, but she put boundaries on him and it's what he need to grow further. He respects her - this is the key. He admires her and he has compassion for her.

“That’s all she is, yes. A scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku. Completely untrained, but strong with the Force. Stronger than she knows.” His mask off, Ren replied with what seemed to be his usual assurance. No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

The Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

Rey is forgiving, which is important, she has a kind heart. Don't underestimate the importance of forgiveness - the power of it. Forgiveness is the path away from shame. Because Rey, Leia and Han were able to forgive Kylo Ren, he was able to forgive himself and as such Ben was able to come back.

Let's also be clear Kylo Ren in a relationship.....He would worship her. He would never intentionally hurt her. He would adore her. He is surprisingly patient, calm, and understanding when it comes to their talks. By the end of The Last Jedi he's supreme leader, but it's a hollow victory. It doesn't mean anything to him because Rey isn't with her. However, there would be obsession and possession. Rey on the dark side, would give into her worst impulses with him and her worst impulses usually end violently. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to be with him. She's very hurt that they are not together and that's clear in the novelization.

Kylo wants to tell Rey who she really is – a truth he believes will make her stand by his side and fight with him. That’s been his goal since the end of the last movie, and all he desires is to be with Rey. In his head, the only way that’s possible is if she turns to the Dark. This time she's even more like him; a grandparent on the Dark Side.

Kylo and Rey are the only people in each other’s lives with whom they are fully open and honest all the time. For better or worse, they are each other's home and redemption. Rey is scared of the power inside of her. Rey feels like she has to hide the darkness inside of her - with Kylo she expresses and lashes out at him - he takes it pound for pound.

Ben Solo is back and boy is it good! When Rey healed Ben Solo, she ended up healing the very same scar she gave him. The scar symbolized his scarred heart because of his decision to kill his father. More than that he looks . He faced his past and overcame it. That scar was no longer holding him back, and the healing of his scar is a physical change that shows his transformation and healing.

Adam Driver “He has to let her know that they’re together. But he doesn’t entirely know what’s going to happen from there, nor do I think he cares. As long as he’s with [Rey], he’s on the right path.”

TROS just doesn't stick the landing.

There are beautiful moments, but Ben being chucked off a cliff? Rey dying as a way of opening up a way for Ben to die (when he's only been on screen 5 minute) When he revive her..... it's more than my heart can take. The way Ben looks at Rey is precious: he looks so happy, in love, and treasuring every single second of being with her. Her kiss leaves Ben in wonder as he expected her rejection.

After Ben died (ugh) Ben is still able to communicate with her through the Force and he assures Rey that he'll be always with her, and she is comforted in realizing that in some way he is not actually gone and that they would always be together. Guess that's why she looks unbothered as she flies off.

In the end, their connection, like with Anakin, love was able to bring the person lost home. That's a beautiful lesson the world needs to be reminded of---- not forgotten.

#reylo #star wars #ben solo #rey star wars #rey skywalker #kylo x rey #finnrey #kylo ren #ben solo deserved better #ben solo x rey #sequel trilogy #rey #reylo art

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intermundia · 2 years

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“He’s not just any jedi”

“I worry that your feelings for your old master weaken you”

“He means nothing to me” —> direct parallels to Kylo Ren’s “She means nothing to me” quote about rey, his love interest and other half. Whether you like Reylo or not they were romantic live interests and Kylo was lying about her meaning nothing to him and we damn well know so is Vader/Anakin

They really served us an Obikin feast this time!

there was just SO MUCH. from my notes:

I have to face him, Master. Whether he dies or I do, this ends today. [they are so fucking entangled and doomed to meet and separate and reunite and they both know it, there's a sense of inescapable unfinished business between them, always on going, until it stops]

You don't have to do this, you know. / I have to go. / It's not about us, is it? You want to do it. It's about you and him. [obi-wan can't deny it]

He is not just any Jedi. I will face him alone. [just.. the level of fixation and history in it being so personal he cannot allow anyone else to intervene with this]

I will do what I must. / Then you will die! [that moment must just have played on loop for a decade in both of their memories, so of course vader knew his line in return]

Your strength has returned. [he sounds so pleased]

THEY GAVE US THE MASK CUT + HAYDEN + OBI-WAN HEARTBROKEN "Anakin"

I'm sorry, Anakin. For all of it. / I am not your failure, Obi-Wan. [obi-wan's face is just.. i mean both of them. ewan and hayden. fucking knocked it out of the park]

Then my friend is truly dead. Goodbye, Darth. [you guys KNOW how obsessed i am with names, and obi-wan using this new one, this acknowledgment of his identity and psychological separation of the two]

I wonder if your thoughts are clear on this, Lord Vader. Perhaps your feelings for your old master have left you weakened. [i love how DONE sheev is with anakin's bullshit]

Kenobi means nothing. [such a good parallel you bring up, love it]

You are also passionate, and fearless, forthright. And these are gifts from your father. [he's let go and so has the distance to appreciate the good, and remember anakin for who he was when he was still his friend and it's just beautiful and heartbreaking to see]

i am just rereading my notes blankly and being like ?!!??!?! did this really happen?!? unreal

#obikin #vaderwan #kenobi spoilers #kenobi show #just. wow

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supremeprince-bensolo · 2 years

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Obi-Wan Kenobi: Part VI | The Force Awakens

#anakin skywalker #darth vader #obi-wan kenobi #obi-wan series #kenobi series #kenobi spoilers #rey #kylo ren #ben solo #reylo #the force awakens #tfa #star wars #starwarsedit #starwarsdaily #swedit #starwarsblr #parallels #myedit

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darklinaforever · 1 month

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I literally just saw someone say that Reylo is not an equal dynamic because Kylo Ren / Ben Solo studied the force and Rey didn't, so he has more power than her in the use of force, and on top of that he has a higher social position than her as a prince and member of the first order while Rey is just a wreck plunderer, except that... is this bullshit ?

Who cares if Kylo Ren / Ben Solo is a prince ? Are you telling me that Belle is never the equal of the Beast in Disney because he's a prince and she's a normal girl ? What is this logic ? It is not because two people have different statues that they cannot develop an egalitarian relationship. Kylo Ren / Ben Solo and Rey have similar experiences in their childhood traumas, as well as literally being the opposite side of each other in the force. Rey is the equal of Kylo Ren / Ben Solo in the light side. It's said in the movies. So obviously yes, this relationship is that of perfect equals. This is the purpose of their connection. And their social position has nothing to do with it.

Again, even though Kylo Ren studied the force for years and Rey didn't, are you forgetting that Rey is a force prodigy ? Literally the equal of Kylo Ren / Ben Solo on the light side, again ? Just like he is his equal on the dark side ? They are literally a dyad. They share the same power. The same strength. Reylo is literally a relationship based on balance and therefore equality. (especially since on top of that, she undergoes training during the trilogy)

And don't even get me started on the example you dialogue "You're nothing." said by Kylo Ren / Ben Solo to Rey to prove that she is not his equal. They must have forgotten the "But not for me." which he added at the end. A clumsy way for Kylo Ren / Ben Solo to make it clear that he sincerely cares for Rey / loves her. Not to mention that we have an almost similar speech from Darcy to Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice. Are you telling me Darcy doesn't change later ? Never sees Elizabeth as her equal ? They also have a difference in social status, yet they end up on an equal footing in the end and are still shown in the story as equals due to their flaws of pride and prejudice.

Especially since Kylo Ren never uses the fact that he is a prince or member of the First Order to assert social superiority and make Rey feel like shit. It's ridiculous. Yes, he calls her a scavenger in a derogatory manner, but that's literally their first real conversation before the connection between them was opened and the relationship developed !

Even his experience in the art of the force he doesn't really use on Rey. Seriously, the number of times he could have banged her but didn't, proves that he never really seeks to dominate her. In the 7th, he holds his punches in their first real fight. In The Last Jedi, Rey defeats him. And in The Rise of Skywalker, he's either tested it or else he's holding back. I literally remind him that he could freeze her and make her pass out like when they first met face to face, but never does it again. Besides, even when he uses his power on her, he doesn't let her crash to the ground like shit and catches her to carry her to the ship himself. Something he doesn't need to do for a prisoner. Regardless, any argument against Reylo seems for me so slammed to the ground it's hopeless...

Plus it was in an attempt to prove that the ship Wolfwren / Wrenwolf (which I also ship) is more egalitarian than Reylo and very different... Wtf ? A ship with a dark side user and a light side user enemies fighting multiple times with a strong connection ? It vaguely reminds me of Reylo Holds ! Not to mention all the visual parallels that we can also make. (A fight in a forest, are they serious ?) Yes, the two ships are different, but making comparisons to prove which one is more egalitarian and fair is stupid... They essentially have the same basis !

Besides, I want to say that even if I love this new ship, uh... it seemed to me that Sabine had a potential romance with Ezra ? Like... is it only me who didn't feel like only friendship and there was clearly something deeper developing ? All this to... fall flat in the Ashoka show ? Disney has once again decided to pass on a potential romance with story-telling meaning, so I'll never argue that Wolfwren could ever become canon. Sad to say, but I don't trust Star Wars anymore. If Reylo, who had the scriptwriting logic and narrative goal of ending happily, didn't do it for stupid reasons... Well, I'm not counting on Disney to one day create a romance in the Star Wars universe that ends well, or even just plain romance, since it seems that Hollywood has for some obscure reason decided that strong women should not fall in love...

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