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sunglassesmish · 7 months

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babygirl

#my gifs #cas #castiel #spn #spnedit #spn 14x19

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captainchilly · 4 months

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TIMESTAMP ROULETTE - SUPERNATURAL (8/327) ↳ 14.19 - JACK IN THE BOX

#spnedit #supernatural #supernaturaledit #spn #jack kline #dean winchester #sam winchester #spn 14x19 #timespn #captainchilly gifs

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soullessjack · 3 months

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actually i think Jack’s whole psychotic meltdown after killing Mary makes a lot more sense when you remember that this was one of his worst fears:

i don’t have the exact scripts but suffice it to say, this is not the first time michael has insinuated that jack is his only equal/match/rival in terms of power, and it’s also not the first time he’s insinuated that jack would simply outgrow his sense of humanity and turn on everyone that he’s claimed as family; the fact that jack is even human to begin with is more or less a glitch in the system to all other angels. it’s “just a phase.”

and then on Jack’s response, all it says is that he doesn’t want to admit it could be possible. i feel like in most other scenarios like this, where the Hero has some connection to the Villain that’s used against them, the Hero usually just dispels the Villain’s claim of connection with some easy shit like “you’re wrong! i have confidence in myself to stay by my friend’s sides forever!” the villain is then defeated and the hero’s connection to them (and all that implies) is never brought up again. but here, with jack and michael, jack is clearly doubtful of his own humanity—I mean, he has been for a while, he’s just afraid to admit it to anyone because it holds too much risk of losing everyone he cares about.

jack has pretty much dedicated his life to proving that he isn’t evil, that he is trustworthy and safe and that he isn’t like Lucifer. however, while he and Mary are in apocalypse world you also get the sense that he now has to prove he isn’t like Michael—despite them being equals. but his dedication and determination are very much rooted in/responsive to fear, not just of losing everyone he loves, but for his True Nature to ultimately be evil and of his father.

so, of course killing his mother figure causes jack to spiral out of control and into psychosis, because he hardly understands what’s happened—he’s literally debating whether or not he intended to kill Mary while at Rowena’s flat—and he’s very jarringly faced with the potential reality that he had finally lost humanity and turned on everyone just as Michael had said.

and despite his literal subconscious telling jack that he’s as good as fucked, he can’t come back from this and he can’t call the Winchesters or the Bunker his home ever again, he obsessively tries to fix it and desperately denies that he could have actually wanted Mary dead or intentionally hurt her (remember he tells Rowena he just wanted her to “be quiet”) because how is he ever supposed to be seen as trustworthy again after possibly-deliberately hurting Mary (and later with Duma, the “nonbelievers”) when the entire reason he wasn’t trusted to begin with was the fact that everybody saw him as something dangerous/truly evil and merely choosing not to act on his true nature, and now if he can’t fix it, then he’s inevitably back in the pigeonhole of a dangerous monster, and Michael was right.

#spn #supernatural #spn meta #spn analysis #jack kline #michael spn #dean winchester #sam winchester #mary winchester #castiel #tfw2.0 #spn 14x19 #spn 14x18 #absence #rowena macleod #jack being literally psychotic with guilt is my Roman Empire like what do you mean he loved them that much and was so afraid of losing them #that he just went fucking insane #like okay then

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bloodydeanwinchester · 1 year

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random shots of dean’s tongue - 16/ ∞

14x19 || jack in the box

#he’s talkin about his momma 🥺#i hate this episode a lot everything about it just makes me sad #liddoltonguenatural #spn 14x19 #spnedit #deanedit #cowboycoven #spn #supetnatural #dean winchester #deanstongueseries #tusersana #usermoogs

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shallowseeker · 8 months

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From the 14x19 script, Cas reminds Sam of this important fact:

From above: CAS: Everyone processes grief differently. SAM: I'm not sure he's processing anything.

But, see. Dean was processing. He was crying and grieving and processing in his own way. When Sam said, "We have to decide what to do about Jack," Dean insisted that he needed more time.

Sam, on the other hand, wanted to power through. Previously, at Mary's pyre in 14x18, he prevented Cas from going to Dean. (I think they may have surprised Sam with what they might've been able to work through, given that they're still in proximity during 14x19.)

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(Text Attributions// Supernatural scripts here via @spnscripthunt. Transcripts are located here via SPNWiki. Visit their Tumblr to donate.)

#sam + grief #sam + coping #tfw + coping styles #tfw + grief #dean/cas #dean + grief #spn scripts #spn 14x19 #spn jack in the box

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franklespine · 5 months

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Oh my god. Genuinely, s14e19 jack in the box was the single most excruciating episode I have ever watched. I am devastated.

How people act when they are without a soul is something I found incredibly interesting in s6 with Sam, and its interesting how the way that Jack is portrayed in this episode fits into it. Just like Sam - he's got no instinct. No guiding moral compass. No gut feelings. Except now it's a billion times worse because Jack is the most powerful being in the universe and everyone seems to want their part in manipulating him. Because the interesting thing about soulessness is it doesn't just make you incapable of feeling empathy, but also makes you incredibly susceptible to manipulation.

I just knew Dean was a ticking time bomb the entire episode. Ugh and the way he painted it - like Jack was just playing them the whole time, that they fell for his act or whatever.

And the Ma'lak box???? What if that was my final straw? What if watching Sam have to manipulate the kid that he sees as his son, that he sees as a reflection of himself, was the end of me? What then?

This entire episode, Sam isn't even angry, he's just full of guilt and sorrow and disorientation. He can't even really articulate how exactly he thinks it's his fault, just that he is somehow at fault. s14 really punishes Sam for being sympathetic huh - at every turn and every mercy.

Whereas Dean is just guilty in an angry way that is like I feel horrible and guilty but in a way that means I really do actually blame you.

Then Dean making SAM be the one to make the call to Jack. Taking advantage of Sam's close relationship with Jack, the one that he valued and took the patience to establish with new born Jack whilst Dean was drinking and condemning him before he'd even stepped a foot in the world. And he doesn't even pose it as a question. He's not telling Sam his plan - he's giving orders. "Because you are going to be so damn sincere". It's going to be you Sam because "you've always been in his corner. You're his go-to guy. If you reach out, he'll come." Yes Sam this is hard for me too, Dean says. Now you take advantage of your close trusting bond whilst I stand here and look imposing.

And then using the only thing that would make Sam actively participate in this crazy shit - his love and dependance on Dean. "If I do it, after what happened to Mom, I could lose it. I will lose it."

They both knows what happens to Dean when he looses it. They've been through the MOC, they've been through demon Dean. Like you can just see it on his face - the menacing way this scene is framed - with such clear power dynamics - this is a threat.

RAHHHH.

I can't. I can't do it.

Something that keeps happening in the later seasons is situations where Dean is aware of their codependence. He knows Sam puts a ridiculous amount of love and faith in him and he knows that he is the only thing that gets Sam to loosen his morals. And he uses it against him?? It happened with Gadreel and now it happened against with Jack and the box.

Time out. I need a breather.

#supernatural #spn #sam winchester #dean winchester #jack kline #spn 14x19 #jack in the box #I just couldn't watch Sam barely keep it together as he was like yea Jack we want things to go back to normal too #... now if you would just jump in this box....#hearing jack call for sam in the box????!!!!#I will go insane #is that what you want #ugh and its true sam has always been the most sincere with him #the only times he wasnt was at intervention of dean #screaming crying throwing up #etc etc

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crowley-the-1-true-king-of-hell · 1 year

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I think what really bothers me about Destiel is that every moment with Cas & Dean is seen as romantic Destiel. Every. Single. Moment

There are moments in the show where I understand why a scene was tagged as Destiel in a romance way. Even as someone who despises Destiel I can look at some interactions and understand why the scene was tagged Destiel in a romance way

This for example

But then there are moments that I would never in a million years see as Destiel in a romance way and I cannot fathom why people on Tumblr tag the scene as such

Like this one

Look at the reblogs on when Jack got imprisoned in a box and Cas' reaction to that

I ship Crowstiel but if Crowley did this to Cas? I would not see that moment as Crowstiel. I don't think a fictional ship has to be 100% fluffy to be valid or deserving of being shipped. This is fiction not reality

My issue isn't that people ship a ship that isn't fluffy. My issue is that some Destiel shippers genuinely truly believe that everything and anything is proof of Dean's love for Cas

Talking about the link above if I shipped Destiel as a healthy and romantic relationship then my reaction wouldn't be praise, it wouldn't be acceptance. It wouldn't be awwww Destiel 😍 I would be outraged because you asked for domestic Destiel, you begged for domestic Destiel and do you know what the writers gave you? A domestic Destiel involving Dean justifying child abuse to Cas

Why tf would anyone, who ships Destiel romantically ever tolerate that or let it slide? The show writers do have their own ideas but some of their ideas are from listening to the fandom. When you don't push back the show writers think it's okay

Some really dark ships like Ramsay x Reek are shipped because they've always been shipped as an effed up inappropriate relationship. People KNOW that ship is wrong. They KNOW this. They ship that ship for what it is. And what it is is a psychological study of a torture victim with stockholm syndrome and a torturer with lima syndrome. It is shipped as a psychological study. It is not shipped as a romance. It's shipped as a dark taboo kink that should only exist in fiction. It's never shipped as romance

But Destiel is NOT Thramsay. George RR Martin has created Thramsay as effed up from the very beginning. In the books written by Martin, Ramsay calls Theon his sweet Reek and kisses him on the cheek, while Reek is also a victim Ramsay tortures

Destiel. Either the show creators have intended Destiel to be a ship between an abuser and a victim

Or the writers intended for the ship to be a healthy relationship and listened to you guys on whether they were doing it right. Obviously with tags like this, it's no wonder they didn't get it right

If the tags were #why did the writers vandalize my ship?! #I know this is wrong but I can't help but like how fucked up it is

Then I would think that Destiel shippers are aware of what they're shipping and that's all I ask for

But when they genuinely believe that this is proof of normal romance and parenting it is painful

Do you ship this moment psychologically as a character study of a toxic moment in a relationship?

Do you ship this moment as a taboo? Like I know it's wrong but it's psychologically fascinating

Do you ship this moment ironically?

All of the above I get

But shipping it as romantic I don't get

#crowstiel #crowley spn #castiel #supernatural #anti destiel #spn 14x19 #dean critical #jack kline #sam critical

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restlesshush · 2 years

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People talk about how refridging Mary to make Dean want to kill Jack in the soulless Jack arc was a really shitty thing to do, and it was, but the thing is I don’t think that’s even quite what happened, writing-decision-wise. Refridging Mary is not only not necessary for the soulless Jack arc to work, it also actively makes it less effective as a storyline, specifically in ways that seem to clash with what was otherwise being set up. Which makes it look like they didn’t kill her to serve their plot, given they actively made their story worse by writing her out.

(Edit: I’m not going to speculate as to what was going on with Sam Smith because I don’t know, but approx 1400 words under the cut about what I think was happening writing-wise)

Anyway so this is all based on an initial theory from @autisticandroids (who also asked me to write this post, hi!) that the way Mary’s death was handled makes it look like the sort of character death that happens because of an actor having to be written out, rather than one the writers really wanted to do otherwise. And once you’re primed to be thinking about this, 14x18 especially does really come off as the show scrambling to try and make her death hit, which is sort of the opposite of what fridgings are for – they’re normally thought of as being a low-effort way to pack an emotional punch. But because we’ve kind of barely seen her all season (she’s in less than a third of episodes), and because this is Mary so if we’re going to kill her again it has to hit, they feel compelled to spend time giving us a couple of slightly on the nose flashbacks to try and make sure we care. It’s the sort of work you’d normally do before you kill a character, rather than slightly messily afterwards to try and make their death look worthwhile, which is really how it comes off here.

And the thing is, it’s not just that it’s kind of messy – it doesn’t actually help facilitate the soulless Jack arc at all really, instead it actively distracts from it. Obviously this is true in terms of screen time, because we have to take time away from Jack stuff for the flashbacks and for Mary’s funeral, but also in terms of the story’s focus. The interesting thread here is “someone we care about is ~dangerous now, what might we have to do to stop them??”, which is pretty decently well-trodden ground for spn, which you could easily have done just based on the snake and burning Nick alive on their own. And then in theory, this would all be made extra tragic by the fact that it was Jack saving them from Michael that even put him in that position, but we barely lean into this because we’re so focussed on Sam and especially Dean’s reactions to Mary’s death. Like, that thread does even still gets pulled on a little bit! You have Dumah's “he lost his capacity for good through an act of goodness” – and that’s what’s actually compelling here. But it’s barely touched on really, because if you’re going to kill Mary, that’s what you have to focus on, or at least that’s what the show seems to be convinced of. Nick even explicitly says it in 14x18 – “Buddy, you killed Mary Winchester. You cannot come back from that.” So we get hung up on an accidental death that could easily have just happened while Jack had his soul, instead of the actual implications of Jack’s soullessness beyond that.

Everything with Mary’s death also obviously makes Dean come off less sympathetically (and not in an interesting way), if he’s motivated by revenge, rather than genuine concern about what Jack might do. In part because of the revenge motive, he seems to take a genuine vicious satisfaction in tricking Jack into the box, for example, whereas if it was more a tragic last resort for how to deal with this very difficult situation, it would make for a much more nuanced and interesting situation, that would hit much harder.

And this isn’t the only way in which the restructuring of the arc to accommodate Mary’s death has implications re Dean’s character. It does look like they were setting Jack up as a Dean parallel here, which obviously if he’s killed Mary, it’s hard for him to be in the same way anymore. There’s a really good post somewhere which I’m annoyed I can’t find about how good leaders don’t ask their subordinates to do things they wouldn’t do themselves, and how Dean would do insane things and so thinks it’s reasonable ask his subordinates to do them too. The post explicitly cites Jack in the Box and iirc also Moriah (edit: it was this post and it cites Jack in the Box and Unity) as examples of this, and while it’s a really interesting piece of character analysis, it’s kind of striking when trying to think about writing decisions that 1) this stuff would be strengthened if Jack was still in the category of people Dean could see himself in, which because he’s killed Mary, he can’t be and 2) by drawing the parallels it draws, it also points out that “oh hey! The writers have chosen to put Jack in situations that Dean has also notably been in! What does this tell us?”

Moriah is probably the less strong of the two examples re just the situation, but the thing is that in addition to Dean effectively asking Jack to be prepared to die for the good of the world like he has before, the obvious thematic use of a mechanic like the Equalizer is “by killing this person you are killing yourself not only literally but also figuratively”. Like, something something supernatural and wasted potential goes without saying, but they did presumably come up with that object for a reason, y’know? But then Mary’s death and the revenge motive means that Moriah doesn't come anywhere near to playing like Dean killing himself on two levels even though like… what is the point of that gun otherwise? It almost feels like a fossil from a different story. And then the situation re the Ma’lak box is very similar. @autisticandroids pointed out to me separately a while ago that Jack is becoming Dean in ouroboros – “I am a winchester + eating michael + being destined for the box” – and also that were it not for the vengeance motive things would very much more come across as “oh my god dean’s putting himself in the box”, which y'know would be both hard-hitting and also the sort of thing spn loves to do.

And it’s also what they’ve been setting up! Like, you go from Dean having something dangerous inside him that means he might have to be locked up or killed, to Jack ending up in that position instead, specifically via him fixing Dean’s issue! It's even him specifically who directly argues for killing Dean to protect the world from Michael in 14x02! There’s a lot of groundwork there for them as parallels in s14 which Mary’s death undermines – the season is just structurally way tighter and more thematically resonant if you take it out. Getting rid of Mary’s death and the revenge motive for Dean (leaving a tension between concern about Jack vs concern about the world in its place) also meshes way better with the way they originally set up the stuff with Jack’s soul too, where it’s meant to be a sad thing for him, that he would no longer be himself etc. And like, that’s arguably partly because it’s Yockey handling it and he’s the only writer who cares about Jack, but it is still what was being set up. “Jack died –> the mechanism we used to bring him back allowed him to burn off his soul to be useful –> he’s dangerous as a result of this and oh god we have to do something about it” is way neater and more compelling as a trajectory if you don’t throw in “also he accidentally killed our mother and so Dean sort of wants him dead because of that too”. There’s a disconnect between the obvious route to take this story and then end result, and Mary’s death seems to be the thing lying behind it.

So yeah, Mary’s death was a bad writing decision not just because it’s not worth refridging her for the sake of the soulless Jack arc (which it definitely isn’t), but also specifically because it actively makes the soulless Jack arc worse. Obviously misogyny was frequently a driving force behind writing decisions on spn, but it doesn’t look like it was here in the way people seem to assume. It doesn’t look like they were killing a woman in order to serve our story – instead, the story has been actively derailed by them killing a woman. Which does really make it seem like that’s not why they wrote her out.

#also stream the secret good soulless jack arc that exists in my head #where i make it way better in part by not killing mary #jack kline #mary winchester #dean winchester #spn s14 #spn 14x20 #spn 14x14 #spn 14x18 #spn 14x19 #spn meta #suicide mention #worded thoughts #spn

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coffincanary · 11 months

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I hate 14x19 "Jack in the Box" with a passion

Arguably the worst scene in Supernatural was Sam and Dean trying to lock Jack in the Mal'ak Box in 14x19. First of all, it felt deeply ooc for Dean. They've been building up Jack as his essentially adopted son, as a part of the family. Dean being upset about Mary's death is 100% warranted, but literally the main theme of the show is that the Winchesters will go above and beyond to save and protect their family. But Dean wanting to lock Jack in the Mal'ak box, something he had *literal nightmares* about when he considered locking himself in there?

If the plan had been to put Jack in there until they could find a way to regenerate his human soul, that might be something Dean would do. But he was planning on keeping Jack in there for eternity. Dean would never do that, unless he doesn't consider Jack family, which would essentially make all the father/son bonding we have seen completely irrelevant. Like them going fishing like John and Dean used to do? Why even put that in there, then? Then Sam just... agrees to it? Like he tries to mildly argue about it, but that's it??? It's not even from a place of anger and hurt about Mary dying, it feels like he's doing it because he's entirely resigned about Jack and helping him. But Sam having hope is a huge and important part of late season Supernatural. He constantly tells Dean not to give up, that they will find a way, especially when Dean says he might have to lock himself in there, but now he's just "well, can't do anything now" and that's it? And when they try to get Jack to go into the box, they just become really bad at lying, especially Sam? THEY'VE LIED LITERALLY THEIR WHOLE LIVES. Sam has lied to so many people. And you can't tell me it was because he didn't actually want to do it or because he cared about Jack, because then he would have actually put up a fight. It was so weird considering what they were trying to do with Sam in the later seasons.

If we want to keep locking Jack in a box for eternity as something that Dean would actually do, it would have been much more in character for them to have an argument about it. Both agree that Jack is dangerous, that something needs to be done, but they disagree on how to handle it. Dean wants to do the equivalent of killing Jack, while Sam holds out hope. Both of them are angry at each other, and Sam immediately drops himself into research and finding a way to get Jack out of there, while Dean probably drinks.

And then there's Cas who's just... upset about the situation, but doesn't do anything. Which, also, ooc for Cas. Like you literally fled from the Winchester's when Kelly was pregnant with him, you have shown your capability to rebel against them too, but now that they locked your son in a box for eternity, you're somehow just like >:( and that's it?? Cas would have tried to bust the box open as soon as he heard of it, and would have beat Dean and Sam's ass for even trying that shit.

This entire episode was just the writers trying to make all the characters "betray" Jack so he would listen to Lucifer. Even if that forced them to act completely different to how they would. It's genuinely the worst scene in the show, in my opinion, because it manages to butcher literally every character and theme they've been trying to build up.

#Supernatural #Dean Winchester #Sam Winchester #Jack Kline #spn 14x19 #I hate this #Rant #This is the worst #I love the show but jesus #Dove rants

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mad-as-a-box-of-frogs · 2 months

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Daphne Allen in The Born-Again Identity (7x17), Ms. Berman in Just My Imagination (11x08), Dumah in Jack in the Box (14x19), and Merle in Galaxy Brain (15x12)

4 More Random SPN Ladies: Best of SPN Ladies [401 / ?]