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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 3 years

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Watching Star Trek TOS For the First Time! Season 1 Reaction

I’ve been a TNG, DS9 and Voyager fan for maybe 10 years but had never watched TOS until I decided that I would. And then I realised I couldn’t live with the possibility of the internet not being able to know my incoherent rambling reactions if it so desired. Most of these were written the day after I saw them but with the early ones it was later so sorry if I don’t remember your favourite.

Season 1:

The Cage: Be still my beating heart why must number 1 leave the show? Why?! Imagine a world in which Majel Barrett got to continue to be her in the Star Trek universe instead of Lwuxana (sorry I don’t love her) and Nurse Chapel. She’s so beautiful I love her. And she gets to where pants and be the second in command. While the episode for sure has sexist moments it does seem like there was more of an actual effort to present to future as having gender equality. When you compare this to the ultra mini skirted version of the actual show, it does feel like executives went through it to make it more marketable. It’s been noted by others that she is quite similar to what Spock’s character became: the cold, logical one, while Spock smiles in this episode. While I ended up loving Spock I still would’ve loved to see a woman in that kind of role, especially in the 60s. Although I’m not sure she would’ve been treated that well.

So Vina can’t like, get medical treatment from Starfleet doctors who know how to put a human body together? No? We’re just gonna leave her there? She’s too ugly? She’s better off living in a fantasy world where she’s pretty? Ok then…

The Man Trap: I don’t even really remember this one so I’d have to rewatch it.

Charlie X: Charlie sees women and becomes an incel, Kirk has to try and teach him not to be. This is a decent goal that somehow culminates in a space boxing match. Kirk loses his shirt. Sexual tension is presumably resolved. Uhura sings.

Where No Man Has Gone Before: The pants are back. Man becomes some kind of god and Kirk beats him up if I remember correctly.

The Naked Time: This is where The Naked Now comes from. This one was less sexual, which is probably a good thing, and less drunk, which is too bad cause I love drunk Crusher and Picard trying to focus on work while their brains won’t brain. Highly relatable mood. This one is where the immortal line “sorry, neither” comes from, spoken by Uhura in response to Sulu calling her a “fair maiden.” According to the internet that was an ad lib and I so hope that’s true cause it’s amazing. Also according to Spock Sulu is a “swashbuckler at heart” which is cool and all but I wish we got to find that out by him actually being a character that we know the personality of rather than a background diversity guy who gets to say a couple of lines sometimes. Also each to their own but shirtless Sulu is infinitely more attractive than shirtless Kirk.

The Enemy Within: Bad. Women at Warp podcast said it best, it’s bad because they say the evil Kirk is still Kirk and is needed for him to be a good captain/person. This could’ve been ok if he didn’t do something so irredeemable, or they could’ve not had him be defined as a true and necessary part of Kirk, but you can’t have both and sell it as an ok message. Rand not being able to look at ‘good’ Kirk after really makes it feel real, her acting in general makes it feel too real.

Mudd’s Women: Women take beauty pills that make them have makeup on and men find them too ugly to marry without them even though they are still beautiful. Also said women were kinda slaves but don’t worry about it! *hand waves*

What Are Little Girls Made Off: I don’t know what the title has to do with the episode. This is the episode where Nurse Chapel is introduced even though she was in a previous episode. And she’s taken more seriously than I thought she would be. Kirk gets an android version of himself made by a guy who he already doesn’t trust and doesn’t predict that maybe that’s not a good idea. Apparently to make an android all you need to do is put one person and one dummy on a giant plate and spin them around real fast. If only the guy who wanted to take apart Data in Measure of a Man knew.

Miri: Problematic. I think the crush angle could’ve worked if it was one sided, but Kirk played into it and it was creepy, and you know, also manipulative, assuming Kirk doesn’t actually feel the same way and is using it to get her to help them. That’s my more charitable interpretation anyway. Also McCoy doesn’t know how vaccines work. Also this episode doesn’t know what puberty is, or rather when it starts. If the virus is supposed to get to you then, that starts round the preteen age. Miri is older than that even though she’s not an adult.

Dagger of the Mind: This was the first one where I was starting to quite like it and it was feeling a little more like Star Trek to me (I know this is the first Star Trek but there’s a certain way 80s/90s era Star Trek feels to me). I really liked the beginning where it was setting up this whole maybe prisoners become violent because of how the prison treats them thing and that it was challenging the viewpoints of some of the main characters, although McCoy was already team prisons are bad and I love him for that. It then went more into the lobotomising asylum type story which was still ok. The guy turned out to be a doctor rather than a prisoner which I didn’t like cause I wanted the prisoners to be humanised. Although you could’ve done a “see anyone, even ‘innocent’ non criminals can be turned violent with this treatment” but they didn’t really emphasise that.

The Corbomite Maneuver: I don’t remember this. Kirk playing poker with some alien I think. Edit: I’m been informed this is the one where the alien turns out to be a lollypop guild kid lip-syncing to an adult’s voice, which I do remember, and probably thought it was some kind of sleep-deprived fever dream.

The Menagerie Part 1 & 2: I laughed so much when they wheeled Pike out and I finally got the Futurama reference in Where No Fan Has Gone Before. I mean I obviously knew the whole thing was a Star Trek Reference, but I had never seen that specific imagery before and now the joke makes sense! Also Pike wanting to go back there seems kinda wrong. I mean they say he’s a vegetable mentally I think but he doesn’t seem to be? I can kinda get that he’s got more incentive to be there than Vina who could probably be helped by Federation doctors but also, he hated that place and spent the whole episode trying to get out of it and it doesn’t feel like a fitting ending for him.

The Conscious of the King: And here begins Star Trek’s love affair with Shakespeare. The only thing I have to say really is, if I didn’t mishear something… a father and daughter played Macbeth and Lady Macbeth? A married couple. And no-one thought that was weird? She was the daughter of a dictator though so there was an Ivanka Trump vibe.

Balance of Terror: Romulans. Spock wasn’t sure that they were related to Vulcans till this ep, though he suspected it. How far back did they split for it to be unknown? I like that the Romulans were sympathetic and we had scenes with them just in their ship from their perspective, and they had some conflicting views with each other. And I really like how Spock was suspected as a spy cause racism and of course he wasn’t and saved that guy cause he’s the better person. That said I found this episode pretty boring and I don’t know why. I kinda wish it turned into a witchhunt situation and was more about the racism on the Enterprise, kinda like The Drumhead from TNG.

Shore leave: Wtf was this episode?! And I don’t ask that because the white rabbit from Alice in Wonderland showed up, or that it was a random holodeck planet episode, that’s fine. When the White Rabbit appeared I was just like, ok it’s going to be one of those episodes, that’s fine. Holodeck episodes are fun, I don’t even mind a random magic alien or two appearing for no reason to wreak havoc, say by making everyone larp as Robin Hood, that’s all Star Trek, that’s Star Trek doing a Star Trek, what I didn’t like is this episode goes nowhere! McCoy sees the White Rabbit, we’re off to a good start, Sulu “Swashbuckler at Heart” sees an old gun that he geeks out on, cool. Kirk sees some woman of course. Also there’s some guy fending off a tiger. Random female guest star of the week rather than letting Uhura be part of the story gets her uniform torn by some guy. Then she imagines a princess dress and if that were me as soon as I realised I could think things into existence I would just imagine all my dream clothes. Kirk imagines an old student friend who is attempting very hard to be Irish (thank you Colm Meany for saving us from this).

Anyway so the planets a holodeck cool. And I’m like, Spock should beam down, I wanna know what he’ll see, this is where the episode could get interesting. And then it happens, but nothing happens, they don’t even make much of a deal of him not seeing anything. But then I thought what if! What if Spock didn’t beam down and this was another imagination?! What if he was some alien with some ulterior motive OR better than that we get to see Spock as imagined by whoever was thinking of him. You could go down a very fanfic road if it were Kirk’s imagined or desired view of him, or maybe you could show different people’s perceptions and then they still suspect he’s not acting like himself even though it’s how they see him, but its not quite right, cause it’s not actually how he is. Or at least I thought they were going to find out what was going on. But NOPE none of that happens. Instead leprechaun guy shows up again and Kirk just wonders off to fight him for the next fucking millennium! The uniforms they wore at the academy seem like they were made out of better quality material than that of a Starfleet captain’s. Poor Kirk must be having to replicate new uniforms every other day. Then they laugh I think, and sexual tension is presumably resolved. Then the aliens show up and are like yeah this planet is a holodeck we thought you’d like it also McCoy died but he didn’t and I’m like THEY DIDN’T CONSENT TO THIS. But then they decide to party.

It reminded me of a Red Dwarf episode called Better Than Life where they knowingly go into a virtual reality game which is basically the same as this planet. But over time Rimmer keeps sabotaging what he imagines cause he hates himself so much his brain won’t let him have nice things. And it’s still a comedy, but there’s an opportunity for exploring the character’s psyche with this setup that wasn’t done here and that made it boring.

The Galileo Seven: This episode was good!! In contrast to the last one it delivered on promises it made, it had a satisfying ending, it’s probably my favourite so far. The whole time I was like this should be about how Spock can be wrong and logic isn’t everything to be a good commander. But given the quality of the previous episodes wasn’t that great and Spock was always right about everything I didn’t trust them to do that. BUT I WAS WRONG. I thought it would be about how just because you don’t have emotions doesn’t mean you can disregard those of the crew. But instead it was about how he couldn’t predict their enemy wouldn’t act based on emotion rather than logic. And then he admitted he was wrong and helped the guy bury the other guy, and then they were about to die and McCoy was like at least I’ve lived to hear Spock say he fucked up. And then Spock jettisoned the fuel so that it might act like a flare but it gave them less time and I was like no you’ve learned nothing! Don’t just do things that severe without asking your crew. But then after they were saved it was described as an act of desperation rather than anything logical and Kirk was like that’s an emotion isn’t it? You acted on emotion? And Spock was like well yes but I’m not gonna say it like that.

I like that emotion was good actually. I think it’s a fine balance between the message of its ok to be different and using Spock as an analogy for racism, and inadvertently neurodiversity, but also not buying into the idea that emotions = weakness and lack of emotion, or emotional repression = objectivity. Even if you don’t factor emotion into your decisions (which would be impossible unless you don’t experience emotions at all) it doesn’t mean that you don’t have personal biases in your perspective. So I’m glad Spock was wrong for once.

The Squire of Gothos: This is Q this is Proto-Q. He does all the same things that Q does; he shows up in clothes that are way out of date (and he thinks they’re from 900 years ago when they’re clearly early 19th century) and he flirts with the captain. Oh and he has powers, maybe they were computer powers, but not all? And he goes on about humans being brutal, warmongering people but he’s kinda into it. He fights Kirk but there was actual tension so it wasn’t annoying like the one with the Irish guy. And then it turns out he was just a kid exactly like the Futurama episode, except he is a kid not 35. I think him being a kid makes the flirting seem weird though.

Arena: Kirk and the Gorn at Tanagra. Kirk fights a lizard because aliens wanted to encourage them to not fight by telling them to fight. I thought maybe these lizards could be proto Cardassians but then I thought they can’t be they don’t talk, but then he spoke so I thought they could be, but then he was the one who was invaded and was only defending his people so I thought they couldn’t be, unless that was actually just lies and justifications in which case they definitely would be, but then that would undermine the message of the episode so I guess not. I wonder how many leaders have killed each other before these alien’s negotiation tactic actually worked.

Tomorrow is Yesterday: This was fun. There were a lot of twists and turns. I wonder if it was before or after the moonlanding. Every plan just makes it worse and more and more people keep getting exposed to the future. Kirk could’ve easily just closed the door and beamed back at the end but instead opts to punch like six people. (I think this is where “a woman?” “Crewman.” Comes from).

Court Martial: What if Kirk actually did it though? Would that be more interesting? Maybe. At least here he has an age appropriate love interest. She’s prosecuting against him which is surely a conflict of interest. AND she has a uniform with a longer skirt! And it actually looks good, like it looks like an actual dress that she can sit down in and it still looks like a dress and not a crumpled up shirt. It’s elegant but it’s still short. I could see this being an option (for any gender) as a dress uniform but it would still make no sense when they’re serving on a ship.

Return of the Archons: I am LIVING for Spock in a medieval style hood. It’s giving me Peter Cook in a Mother Superior’s wimple in Bedazzled vibe, it’s not quite on that level of beauty, but it’s close. For some reason Sulu returned from the planet in 18th century gear but then everyone else is dressed like it’s the 19th century, with some medieval robes thrown in, and this annoys me more than it should. Maybe it’s because he’s a swashbuckler at heart. Apparently they had a completely peaceful society except for the nightly purge they seemed to have going on that is never mentioned again.

Space Seed: KHHANN! I liked this a lot until the end. I want to know the lore behind Data’s Dad having his middle and last name. Edit: Actually only the middle name is the same and the last name is just similar. I still think there’s lore there (excuse the pun), probably he’s a descendent of his cult followers or something. The story seemed to be eugenics bad and also the type of guy to basically be a eugenics cult leader would be super manipulative and abusive but just charming enough in a relationship. It does a pretty good job of showing the abuse in his relationship with the historian woman, how he switches between being loving and I guess charming, and flattering to being abusive and degrading. I wish that the historian woman could find someone that she can explore domination and submission with consensually cause that seems like it would be what she really wants. Anyway but in the end they just let him go? Like he tried to take over the ship but they were like here have a colony. They compared the place to Australia when the colonists arrived at Botany Bay and that it could be... I forget what the word was but basically ‘civilised’ and No NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO STOP RIGHT THERE NO Australia was already populated and didn’t need eugenicist cult leaders who were demonstrably bad to show up make it ‘better.’ AND THEN the historian is given the choice to go with them and she does and its framed like it’s good? Or at least ok? When they just did a pretty decent job of showing how abusive and manipulative he was and she had redeemed herself by turning against him? So I get that they probably wanted to bring him back although they’re probably not gonna bring her back, but they could’ve easily had him escape instead.

A Taste of Armageddon: Suicide machines. I forget the rest.

This Side of Paradise: SEX POLLEN! Well it’s more fall in love pollen, I guess, for one character. There’s a woman and there’s the music and the soft focus and BUT WAIT then the camera cuts to Spock not Kirk! Because she has taste. It’s about this point that I think the ‘Spock’s the most popular but Shatner wants to remain the star so we’ll emphasise their character’s relationship thus inadvertently inventing slash fic’ might’ve started. It’s time for a love triangle! She makes Spock get the sex pollen, which is not getting consent, and then he falls in love with her and is climbing trees and is all happy. Kirk can’t get a text back from Spock. Then Kirk and two others get the pollen except Kirk didn’t, but he did, but anyway I thought everyone would be horny but they weren’t they were just brainwashed. Soon Kirk is all alone on the bridge, then he gets the pollen and is happy to live as a poly triad but then he gets angry and it’s gone. Then he calls Spock to the ship and approaches the situation in the only way Kirk knows how: Homoerotic punching! So they fight for not long enough and then Spock is cured but he’s a little sad, there’s sadness in his voice, it’s not quite so matter of fact. Then Spock’s gf gets sad and the sex pollen is gone too, Spock might still have feelings for her but he has responsibilities to the ship and “to that man on the bridge” which if he was saying to just mean once again the whole ship, and its mission and the captain in a professional sense, seems a little redundant, which would surely be illogical.

The colonists get sad that they haven’t done anything for years because the sex pollen made them unambitious but I would argue maybe the sex pollen was right and you were better off just vibing. This episode was more interesting and less silly than I thought the creator of sex pollen would be. At the end Spock says that for the first time in his life he was happy. While every other character could still easily become addicted to a thing like that they could at least know they would experience happiness or any feelings again in their life, for Spock it was going back to nothingness.

Devil in the Dark: Spock calls Kirk Jim which I don’t think he has before, when he’s talking over the communicator and he’s worried he’s in danger, there’s some actual fear or urgency in his voice. Also the moment that got me was when Kirk wanted to send Spock back the ship cause he didn’t trust him to kill the creature and Spock was like “but… I’m not really as useful there I am here… so…” If I was writing it I would’ve played that up more but anyway, I like that they didn’t kill the creature. I like that McCoy said the thing. And also said “I’m starting to think I can cure a rainy day.” He’s my favourite.

Errand of Mercy: It’s kinda becoming the Kirk Spock show now, I like the ship but I miss McCoy. I like that the passive pacifists who Kirk was so angry with were actually more powerful. And KLINGONS! Oh yeah the orientalism, the yellow peril, it’s… it’s there all right. They were played a lot colder here, a little Cardassian maybe, still bloodthirsty but I don’t believe this guy has to do it himself to feel honourable, he can kill for sure but he’s fine ordering someone else to do it and being a chessmaster too.

The Alternative Factor: God this one was boring. But it does have a man with the worst beard wig I’ve ever seen. Now he’s stuck fighting the bad version of himself or something to save the universe. So remember that when you’re watching later Trek series, all of this could suddenly be destroyed if one of them gets tired.

The City on the Edge of Forever: UHURA GETS TO GO ON AN AWAY MISSION! Aaaand she doesn’t get to do anything :/ The usual three go back in time! To the 60s again! Oh wait… that’s meant to be the 30s? Oh. That’s some tall hair that lady has for the 30s. But at least said lady is a character, she’s a little perfect but she does things, she has strong beliefs, she might be written a little idealised, but she is still written like a person compared to almost every other Kirk love interest. “He says it (captain) even when he doesn’t say it” is an interesting line. So she has to die, I still think they could’ve just convinced her that you don’t make friends with fascists but ok. They never say what the Clark Gable movie is.

Operation Annihilate! Kirk’s brother dies, and so does his sister in law, leaving his nephew without parents. This is never resolved and the episode ends with them laughing about how Spock got his eyesight back.

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

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It’s also incredibly unfair to Ezri that they decide to test her worth based on her ability to ‘fix’ someone that even a very experienced therapist would find challenging to treat. I seem to remember Sisko just kind of yells at her when she complains about it, instead of acknowledging that maybe they shouldn’t pushed her to do something that she doesn’t have the necessary experience or specialist training to do and that neither her or Garak should have been put in that situation.

Ds9 spoilers but I'm obsessed with that one time the crew was like. "Hey Ezri you're a psych major. Garak keeps having panic attacks and refuses to talk about it can you like.......... Go fix him" and she's like "ok :)" and then he yells at her about "Trauma What Trauma There's No Trauma Here I, A Child, Deserved That. Fuck You You're Nothing" and she goes and cries about it and then at the end of the episode Garak's like "I'm fine thanks :)" and it's never acknowledged again

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

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“Someone’s sending all this to Dukat, yeah?”

Man, this was a blast to draw. With all the negativity in the world right now, just needed something fun to cheer me up.

Based off @captaincrusher‘s post.

To sum up, it’s never really touched on that Sisko has Dukat’s old office, and the implications of this. One of the theories thrown in was that a week after settling in, a life-sized bronze statue of Dukat shows up (after being held up in Bolian customs for three weeks), and Sisko has to sign for it. They don’t know what to do with it, so it just does the rounds of the station:

It ends up in the rec room for Julian and Miles to throw things at.

Kira gets back from a week-long mission to Bajor, finds it just inside her bedroom door. Barely misses it with her phaser.

She places it just so inside the infirmary doors, so it’ll topple onto Julian when he walks in the following morning.

Nog looses a bet with Jadzia, has to sneak it into Sisko’s office wearing the ‘Everybody loves me’ shirt.

Revenge is enacted.

Quark thinks it’d be a great way to fool Odo. Turns out paper plates sticky-taped on aren’t the answer.

It ends up at Garak’s. No one’s sure exactly how or why, but the results are beautiful.

Ziyal, my poor baby. Sisko’s given her a cargo bay to decorate.

At one point, O’Brien has to go on an urgent mission. For some godforsaken reason, the statue has ended up in the runabout and there’s no time to unload it. So he pilots for 54 hours straight while feeling the itch of Dukat’s soulless glare on the back of his head.

Oh, and they might have won the war by posting all these to the… whatever the Trek equivalent of the net is.

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

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If copyright didn’t exist all fanfic would be canon.

#just saying #this is my argument #in favour of #abolishing copyright #ok copyright is still needed in a capitalist system but trying to maintain a hard line between canon and non canon is silly imo

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

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I love Ro especially

✨Star Trek ladies wearing outfits I have saved on pinterest✨ (pt. 1)

(click images for optimal quality!)

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

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I vote Civil Defense. That would be glorious. Even as it is written that scene is one of the only times Garak actually speaks directly, without the usual layers of obfuscation, and I love that he is compelled to do so cause he’s just so disgusted by Dukat.

one f word in all of ds9 where you putting it

“17 temporal violations. The biggest file on record.” “The man was a fucking menace.”

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

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Little Achievements - DS9 fanfic read by Alexander Siddig and Andrew Robinson. Written by Elmie K-E/almaasi

God this is so lovely. I saw this channel a little while ago but did not realise that they’re reading fanfic! and it’s good!! It’s so great seeing the actual actors in their roles, but I’m also really impressed with the writing (the other fanfic vids are good too!). The theme of not valuing your worth based achievement or success as mandated by others (or society *cough*capitalism*cough*) is really nice. This made my 2020 a bit more bearable, and it is canon now, I decree it so! This is now my S07E27

#ds9 #star trek: deep space 9 #garashir #fanfic reading #with the original actors #garak #dr. bashir #Alexander Siddig #Andrew Robinson #elmie k-e #almaasi

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

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A film fan’s reaction to reading The Lord of the Rings for the first time.

I’ve been a big fan of the Peter Jackson films (extended versions - nerd that I am) since I was about 11 and I think I know all of the big changes made in the adaptation: Arwen, Faramir, Aragorn falling off a cliff. I did read the first book around the same age (in the first of many waves of my lotr obsession) but I only really remembered Saruman of ‘Many Colours’.

However I have always wanted to properly know the book version of the story so finally started listening to an amazing full audio book reading by Steven Red Fox Garnett which I highly recommend:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwLvFU2onc7cPIEBee-_xMw

………………………………………………………………………………….

And here are my silly reactions and occasional analysis of the differences between book and film that I didn’t know about.

The Fellowship of the Ring part six, one, two, three, four, five

The Great River:

Oh Boromir’s feeling tempted

The first time Sam sees Gollum, he tells someone (Frodo) and actually voices his suspicion that it IS Gollum. Frodo’s been seeing him since THE SHIRE, and probably suspected who it was since Moria? At least Lorien, but is like nah I’ll keep this info to myself. Oh Frodo you are too much like me.

Sam says he’ll watch for tonight but Frodo insists that he wake him during and they share the duty. I want to see more of this breaking down of class boundaries.

The build up to seeing Gollum has had legitimate tension in it that it doesn’t in the films so much as he is only seen once, or twice, I think twice. And every scene when he is ‘seen’ has been frightening, as has the Balrog and Moria in general. This is a credit to the book but I also wonder if these scenes in particular work well with the medium of audiobook. The times I have been listening to them have often been in bed at night with the lights off, so that adds to the experience.

TIME works differently in Lorien! Is this how elves experience the world? Is this how they live forever they’re just on a much slower timeline?

The third Aragorn-Boromir moment I miss from the film is when Boromir is actually trying to get Aragorn to face up to his duty to Gondor (I really love how he switches between ‘Gondor needs no king, and ‘Aragorn please come to Minas Tiriiiith it’s really preeeetty!’) and Aragorn says something like ‘I will not lead the ring within x leagues of your city.’ Film Boromir is currently filling the role of heir to the leadership of Gondor that Aragorn should be. His temptation by the ring is also a reason Aragorn is afraid of taking that role. The film not only makes Aragorn less perfect, but also weaves his and Boromir’s arcs together in a way I would’ve liked in the book.

The Breaking of the Fellowship:

Boromir is not dead! What?! Boromir lives! Well for slightly longer than I thought, I really thought I knew all the changes like this but nope.

I mean, I probably wouldn’t really leave Frodo, the guy with the ring, alone when they know the enemy is close behind them, even for an hour but ok.

I like Boromir’s give me the ring speech, it’s similar to the film, but there is just more of it, he mostly comes off as genuinely believing his justifications rather than being power hungry, and they are pretty convincing, it’s easy to see why he would believe them. A couple of people just ‘simply walking into Mordor’ with no real plan and their most powerful and wise member of the group dead is really unlikely to work. He does eventually say that he would be king, but this doesn’t really seem to be his true motivation to me, it’s more the ring’s influence, I think he is more deeply moved by the fear that this plan will fail. I do actually love that idealism wins in the end and the message that using power, or a terrible weapon always corrupts. But I also love that Boromir isn’t strawmanned I guess, that you can see both points of view even when you ultimately only agree with one makes it a more compelling conflict.

Frodo take the ring off! Seriously though I do like that it is difficult to do that, it makes sense, and we get to hear that Frodo is fighting an invisible battle (while invisible himself hehe) when he puts the ring on, I think it is a little clearer here than the equivalent moment in the film.

It’s been way over the hour that Frodo said he needed and you still haven’t gone to see if he’s ok?!!!

Sam knows Frodo best, he knows why he would try to go on his own (for the sake of the others not in spite of them) and he also knows it’s a dumb idea and he needs someone/him. I also love that Sam is the first person Frodo thinks of when he thinks of the others he cares about, then Merry and Pippin, then ‘Strider’ I don’t think it necessarily would have been that way when they first set off.

Frodo you would be dead so many times over or just be in a cave somewhere with the ring if it wasn’t for Sam! Or really anyone, you need people. It’s interesting to look at it from a mental health lens, particularly the way the ring affects the hobbits. Frodo, was already a little bit of an outsider in the Shire, now with the ring he slowly has to battle more and more to maintain his sanity. Frodo doesn’t ask for help enough, he doesn’t tell anyone about Gollum, but Sam does (even if that person was just Frodo and not Aragorn) and now he thinks he’ll be better off on his own, with a combination of I can’t trust others, and those I do I don’t want to put them in danger, don’t want to burden them with my burden. And Sam is like, that’s not possible, no one can do that, you need people to help, especially given the burden you carry. I know that Sam is very influenced by the WWI batmen, and Frodo and Sam function as an idealised version of a master-servant relationship. But because I’m not a big fan of that I like seeing Sam’s relationship to Frodo as being that of a carer (as well as friend) in a mental health setting, through this lens he is a reminder to Frodo, the one figuratively struggling with his mental health, that you don’t have to, nor should you do it all alone.

And while I realise the reasoning of ‘I can’t go with the whole fellowship cause they’ll all go the way of Boromir’ is sound, I think Frodo takes it too far the other way by thinking he can/has to do it alone and I think we’re meant to see it that way, hence Sam.

Aragorn doesn’t see Frodo after Boromir does like in the film, although I liked this scene I think it works better without it, Aragorn letting Frodo go on his own seemed pretty unrealistic, and Frodo being assured that Aragorn can be trusted, unlike Boromir, lessens the believability of him deciding to go on his own. Here while they all give him way too much time to think given the danger, no-one seems to be saying we should let him go on his own, and they all rush off to find him when they realise he’s trying that. There’s more chaos as everyone goes off without listening to Aragorn, that’s a scene I would have liked to have seen in the film, and I think I’ll add it to my own personal collated headcanon.

*And that’s the end of book 1. I think I’ll post some final thoughts on it at some point then move onto the Two Towers*

#lotr #tolkien #lotr book #lotr films #fellowship of the ring #boromir #frodo #samwise gamgee #frodo's declining mental health #sam is frodo's carer #and more #lotr audiobook #lotr book reaction #lotr liveblog #i will always defend frodo #and boromir to a lesser extent #boromir lives!

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

Text

A film fan’s reaction to reading The Lord of the Rings for the first time.

However I have always wanted to properly know the book version of the story so finally started listening to an amazing full audio book reading by Steven Red Fox Garnett which I highly recommend:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwLvFU2onc7cPIEBee-_xMw

………………………………………………………………………………….

And here are my silly reactions and occasional analysis of the differences between book and film that I didn’t know about.

The Fellowship of the Ring part five, one, two, three, four, six

Lothlorien:

I really miss the film Aragorn-Boromir interaction in the aftermath of Gandalf’s death. Where the hobbits are in shock/grief and Aragorn rouses them to go. Boromir says ‘give them a moment for pity’s sake.’ Not only does it immediately set up the unstable power structure of the fellowship without Gandalf, to me it’s one of those really interesting conflicts where both sides are right. And as a leader it would be hard to make the right call. Obviously they can’t stay long, but Aragorn’s coldness isn’t the best for morale. I also like that it is the reverse of what you might initially expect for both characters. Boromir argues for compassion while Aragorn for practicality, and yet it works to add complexity to both. I think Aragorn is probably right, as he usually is, but it’s not like Boromir doesn’t have a point. He actually has more experience with leading large groups in a somewhat kingly manner than Aragorn does, and Aragorn can learn something from that. It can seem like Aragorn is shirking some part of his leadership responsibilities, like an emotional openness, or maybe just communication. It feels like Aragorn is leading in a bit too introverted way at the beginning, or in a way that still shows his reluctance. Anyway it doesn’t have that scene.

What it does have is Boromir being the one who is most reluctant to go into Loth Lorien. He’s like I’ve heard some not so good stories of this place and Aragorn is like well your people have your facts wrong and then is like you’ll only find evil in here if you bring it with you, Aragorn is apparently the king of throwing shade at least.

Haldir! And Sam was the loud breather.

They want to make Gimli wear a blindfold into Lorien but NO ONE ELSE! Racist elves. I mean I know that’s the point but whoa.

Gollum has been following them since like, the Shire, which is a long time to wait. I like the mention of Sting not glowing even though Frodo can hear he is near, nice way to say he’s not an orc, not truly evil. It is one of the few things I really liked in the Hobbit films, the use of this visual symbolism to morally complicate things when you meet him. (Poor orcs it seems you can kill without moral consequences).

Gimli is understandably not ok with the blindfold situation, I support him. Aragorn suggests they should all wear them, I like this, it’s probably the most egalitarian solution they could do, given how much they needed their help. Good Aragorn move. I think message-wise Boromir being the one who is most resistant to Lorien rather than Gimli is better. While there has been some both sideyness in the Elve/Dwarf racism, here at least the fault seems to be more with the elves, which is a more realistic depiction of racism than it being equal fault on both sides. Although perhaps this is better referred to as xenophobia since there isn’t an active exploitation of one race by another here.

Haldir is not a jerk! Or less of one. He doesn’t believe in the blindfold policy but he is still enforcing it so…

Sam says that Lorien is ‘like being inside a song’ I keep saying Sam is musical. ’Frodo puts his hand on a tree and feels the ‘delight of the living tree itself’ rather than thinking about its uses when it’s dead. I’m here for the tree love.

Celeborn is like we shouldn’t have let the dwarf in and then Galadriel is like actually dwarfs are cool! And he’s like yeah you’re right I’m sorry. Galadriel directly calling out anti-dwarfism and then speaking to Gimli in his own tongue gives a stronger reason for him to be enamored by her than basically she was pretty.

I can’t believe I forgot Sam making a poem for Gandalf’s fireworks in the film! Given I’ve been going on about him being a songwriter.

The Mirror of Galadriel:

Frodo sees Gandalf the white aw :’( It gets to me sometimes that Frodo and Sam don’t get to know that Gandalf is alive until the task is done and everyone else (except Boromir) gets to in the second book.

It makes some more sense now as to why Galadriel says she will ‘diminish’ and why the rings tempts her since the one ring dominates the three and with it destroyed their power probably would also.

Galadriel says the ring has a ‘will to dominate’ or something like that, she says Frodo can’t see the three rings through the one because he hasn’t tried, and that if he did it would destroy him. I may not have got that exactly right but it seems like Gandalf et al in Rivendell were saying hobbits can’t use the power of the ring only wizards and elves could. But Galadriel is like no it’s only because you haven’t tried. But also don’t try cause, you know, it’s evil and all (but that goes for everyone).

Sam did you not see the scary immortal lady lit with a power of her own screaming ‘ALL SHALL LOVE ME AND DESPAIR’? No it would not be good for her to take it!

Farewell to Lorien:

Finally the Aragorn doubt that I have been waiting for! Although he’s only really unsure about going to Minas Tirith or not cause Gandalf fell and now he has to take on his role and he’s like well he didn’t tell me what to do so… But still I’ll take Aragorn unsure which way to go and using the river to procrastinate as symbolic of his uncertainty of his own destiny as king, I’ll take it. I am missing another Aragorn-Boromir convo from the film. The one where Boromir is all stressed and kind of tries to confide in Aragorn and ends up goes on about Minas Tirith oh it’s so wonderful oh it’s so beautiful, have you seen it Aragorn? ‘Have you ever been called home?’ and Aragorn is just like yeah I’ve seen it, cool story bro. There’s a 3rd bit of film dialogue before the death scene that I love and I wonder if there’ll be anything like that.

Boromir definitely doesn’t want to talk about his Galadriel vision. But it sure has made him weird.

Why did they guide them out of Lorien only to then stop them and give them gifts? I’m convinced Galadriel wanted to show off her awesome swan boat.

I guess Aragorn’s gift of a personalised scabbard is more meaning full than a random head cutting blade. But I’m still not cool with him already having the sword.

I am surprised at how many of the gifts were different in the film, I think this scene was only in the extended anyway. Sam wanting rope was built up for so long in the book that I was surprised that he got it in addition to his gift. I do like that Sam appreciated the rope though, it was still a nice payoff.

Gimli’s gift is the same though :) I haven’t read the Silmarillion, though I have read that some jerk-elf asked Galadriel for a hair from her head and she said no, and he didn’t get the message until asking another two times. So giving Gimli three hairs (when he only hesitantly asked for one) is a big fuck you to that jerk-elf. In fact Galadriel says that everyone should stop saying that Dwarves can’t be courteous or whatever. Gimli specifically says that it was her calling out Celeborn and defending dwarves that made him like her.

#lotr reaction #lotr book #lotr films #lotr audiobook #galadriel #sam is a born poet #jerk-elf #lothlorien #I stan boromir #mostly #gimli #all shall love me and despair #lotr #steven red fox garnett #lotr liveblog

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

Text

A film fan’s reaction to reading The Lord of the Rings for the first time.

However I have always wanted to properly know the book version of the story so finally started listening to an amazing full audio book reading by Steven Red Fox Garnett which I highly recommend:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwLvFU2onc7cPIEBee-_xMw

………………………………………………………………………………….

And here are my silly reactions and occasional analysis of the differences between book and film that I didn’t know about.

The Fellowship of the Ring part four, one, two, three, five, six

The Ring Goes South:

The sword is remade already?!!!! I’m trying to be ok with this but I don’t like it. I don’t like it. In fact this and by extension the characterisation of Aragorn is the only difference I haven’t liked so far. Everything else is like I understand why they didn’t have room for this or changed that, but it works fine the way it is in the book as well, different mediums and all that.

The scene when Bilbo gives Frodo Sting and the mithril is now a nice, bittersweet scene, since Nosferatu-Bilbo is behind us. There was an air of sadness to it, like Bilbo was intentionally trying to keep his and Frodo’s spirits up, focusing on how he has to write it all up when he comes back. I felt he was trying to ignore the high likehood of Frodo not coming back. And the pain that he was sending his younger heir into danger rather than himself. In general the book has done a better job at making me care about the Bilbo Frodo relationship so far. In the film I did feel a little like I was told how much Bilbo meant to Frodo, and it wasn’t that I didn’t believe it but I didn’t feel it that deeply. In the book there is more time, and we get more of a sense that Bilbo was one of the only people Frodo felt really understood him, despite having good friends like Merry and Pippin (Sam not being as close to him YET). Frodo being a bit more of an outsider in The Shire does help explain to me why the ring messes him up so badly, metaphorically, outside of the in-universe reason that the ring just does that. In the film Frodo is shown to be quite happy and well-adjusted in The Shire, in order to contrast how depressed he is when he gets back and it works well, and always gets me in the feels (poor sweet innocent Frodo! Little does he know). But I like adding the book characterisation to flesh out pre-adventure Frodo in my mind. (Oh I’m just realising this works well with a queer reading of Frodo too).

Tolkien really wants you to know that Boromir has big, strong, thick arms.

On the mountains there is no ‘let the ringbearer decide’ which I always thought was kind silly in the film. Like he doesn’t know, and he’s not a leader, isn’t the point of a random hobbit having the ring that he doesn’t have power? Don’t go and give him a sense of power.

A Journey in the Dark:

Ok so there is some focus on Frodo’s opinion on whether they go to Moria or not but it doesn’t actually influence their decision because…

Wargs! And we don’t know if Bill will survive them, but Gandalf does some magic to protect him maybe. Bill must be protected.

Frodo doesn’t get to solve the riddle :(

It’s Borormir’s fault the kraken thing attacks. The attack is less over the top, which I prefer, and I think this might be the case for many upcoming fight scenes. Gandalf wonders why it went specifically for Frodo hmmmm.

I think the journey through Moria so far might be the first part of the adventure where I think I’m enjoying the book version more. There is a great sense of unease, the film isn’t (and probably couldn’t be) as dark as described in the book, where only the faint light of Gandalf’s staff can be seen and everything else is just a mystery. The fact that they are there for longer also adds to the forebodingness. Whereas before the slower pace than the film somewhat lessoned the urgency, here it gives you a better sense of their ordeal.

No silly ride-the-broken-stair-and-conveniently-it’s-the-two-most-protagonisty-characters-that-are-left scene. Which I appreciate.

Frodo can sense evil and generally shady spirit things since he was stabbed by the Ringwraith! This is a cool thing I wish they kept in the films. This is some soft magic system coolness.

‘Fool of a Took!’ The Pippin Gandalf dynamic is there. I can’t wait to see how it changes when they are in Minas Tirith.

Sam wanted to learn Gimli’s song. Sam really is a songwriter! Doomed to just be a gardener because of the class system. I really like that Sam is given this character trait outside just being the amazing caring hobbit we know he is. It’s something about who he is outside of Frodo.

The Bridge of Khazad-Dum:

Ah so Balin was trying to retake Moria. That makes sense. It did seem weird that Gimli was surprised to find him dead in the film. Like Dwarf intel really moves slowly. Here he is disappointed, not surprised.

To be fair mithril is only the second most valuable and rare heirloom Frodo got from Bilbo. He’s quite protective of both.

I find the action scenes here had more tension for me than in the film. By the next two films the battle scenes had the appropriate tension and dread, but I was surprised by how much more on the edge of my seat I was listening to it described here than the film version which exaggerates the amount of orcs so much that it loses some effect (this is a credit to Steven Garnett as well).

Aragorn throws some shade on Gandalf right after they get out and is like I told you not to go this way.

#lotr book reaction #lotr book #lotr films #fellowship of the ring #tolkien #moria #death of gandalf #aragorn #frodo #queer frodo #bilbo #lotr audiobook #steven red fox garnett #lotr liveblog #nosferatu bilbo #boromir's thick strong arms #fool of a took #samwise sings #soft magic

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

Text

A film fan’s reaction to reading The Lord of the Rings for the first time.

However I have always wanted to properly know the book version of the story so finally started listening to an amazing full audio book reading by Steven Red Fox Garnett which I highly recommend:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwLvFU2onc7cPIEBee-_xMw

………………………………………………………………………………….

And here are my silly reactions and occasional analysis of the differences between book and film that I didn’t know about.

The Fellowship of the Ring part three, one, two, four, five, six

Many Meetings:

Frodo thinks he’s better but Gandalf can see that Frodo’s arm is transparent, not fully in the mortal world? Is this permanent? A metaphor for his ultimate depression/ptsd, I know the wound itself serves as that. Gandalf lies and says Frodo looks well. My poor sweet baby innocent Frodo.

Frodo knew Sam was by his side most of time rather than checking out Rivendell like he said <3

No Sam! Don’t wait on your master! Embrace being treated as an equal! Thank god he didn’t do it.

Glorfindel is sitting next to Elrond and this is enough for me to ship them.

Frodo finally meets Bilbo again, it having been 17 YEARS! This is more emotionally charged for Frodo than in the film. Bilbo does his Nosferatu impression here! Almost the first thing he says to Frodo is Sooo you have the ring? Can I see it? Can I touch it? This was SAD! That it was so soon. Then there is quite a tone shift after that, Bilbo says sorry for this burden/everything like in the film but then they keep taking, and chat to Aragorn like it never happened.

Gloin!

Some elves are racist jerks to Bilbo (although his song did go on quite a lot).

The Council of Elrond:

Boromir! So far he is much like in the film. Doesn’t say ‘by the blood of our people are your lands kept safe’ but says words to that effect. Including something like ‘we get praise but no help’ which I thought was a pretty good critique, it made me think of performative activism. Aragorn kind of seems petty when he says well rangers protect the north, the north’s not safe either! Like yes but also Gondor is RIGHT NEXT to Mordor. You can see it when you look out from Minas Tirith. I think there’s probably more servants of Sauron there even though there are many elsewhere. It felt like a whataboutism. I think Boromir’s point still stands. Perhaps this is meant to be read as a flaw of Aragorn’s but I don’t think so.

Aragorn says again that the sword will be remade, and says that he will go to Minas Tirith. That’s pretty much all but saying he will become king. He seems so far to accept that fate and be less reluctant to do it than in the film. At this point in the film I felt Aragorn knew in the back of his mind that he would probably have to fulfil that destiny, but there was still a part of him fighting it, or hoping against it. He also had doubts, fears that he would fail like Isildor, fears to take up power. In the book Aragorn himself says the line ‘I am Isildor’s heir, not Isildor himself.’ In the film this was given to Arwen who tries to reassure him. While book Aragorn certainly has humility and isn’t proud of his royalness he seems more comfortable with his destiny, and I so far find that less interesting, like there may be less of an arc for him. But it is early days and a lot more may be revealed about him. I’m especially interested in his interactions with Boromir, which, I find is one of the more interesting aspects of the first film.

Bilbo wrote the Aragorn Poem! And says it’s not that good, but it’s my favourite one so far. I think we’re probably meant to have that reaction.

Radagast! It makes a bit more sense here as to why Gandalf would go see Saruman, despite already being suss about him, given that Radagast unwittingly sent him there. I’d like to think the moth in the film is a nod to Radagast.

Saruman of MANY COLOURS! This is almost the singular thing I remember from reading the first book as a kid. As awesome as it sounds I’m kinda glad they didn’t put it in the films since it would look like queer-coding a villain.

Saruman has some rhetoric about maintaining ‘order’ which is never a good sign. He also seems to think that he’ll be able to take power from Sauron after they join somehow which, my dude, is never gonna happen.

Gandalf has a line about how despair is only for those who know the future, and we do not, and honestly that helps me with climate grief.

Apart from Frodo and Sam, (and Merry and Pippin) Elrond picks the other companions.

Elrond is starting to see that Bilbo isn’t so unique among hobbits, that they may all have strength of character beyond what may initially seem to. This is nice, I like this theme.

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caitlinsfandomthoughts · 4 years

Text

Plato’s Symposium Summarised (for fun and definitely not education)

[Basically this]

Some random guy: Hey Socrates, wanna go to Agathon’s dinner party with me?

Socrates: Yeah Agathon’s good-looking!

Some random: We have to come up with something to say to them about why you’re here though.

Socrates: Oh yeah!

[They talk for some time about what explanation they’ll use, that they have to have a reason for why Socrates is with him etc]

Some random: How about we say that I invited you?

Socrates: Sounds good!

[They arrive at Agathon’s house]

Some random: Hey guys, Socrates is coming with me but he’s not here yet, he’s talking to the neighbours or something.

Everyone: That’s cool! Socrates is like that.

Somebody else: We should have rules for drinking.

Everyone: Good idea, drinking too much can be bad for you.

Also Everyone: So the rules for drinking are each man should drink as much as he wants.

Somebody I forget who: We should each compose a panegyric ode to the god/concept of love.

Everyone: Yeah good idea literally no-one’s ever done that before.

[I think somebody else goes first but the first one I remember is …]

Pausanias aka “Pasta Sauce”: There’s two types of love, the common vulgar type and the higher type. The lower type is the love of the body, the higher is the love of the mind. The lower type is for child abusers and straight men. The higher type can only be experienced between two consenting ‘of age’ men cause women don’t have minds amirite?

Some men abuse underage boys and that is shameful, but also some young boys are gold diggers/just trying to get status from their older lovers and in that case they are the shameful ones.

Being in love makes you do crazy things that would otherwise be considered crazy but it’s totally fine if it’s in the name of love.

Also the Persians are bad and homophobic (and coincidentally our enemies)

[Then it was Aristophanes’ turn]

Aristophanes: Hiccup!

Eryximachus aka “Eric Maxis”: You should hold your breath, or drink some water or just wait and I’ll go first. I’m a doctor, and love is a lot like the body, since I’m a doctor by the way, all my analogies are about the body from a medical perspective. Did you know that I’m a doctor?

Aristophanes: Now I’m totally not joking when I tell you this. Once upon a time humans were two people stuck together, with two heads, four arms and legs etc. Our backs were facing the same way as our heads and genitals. We were super happy then and this annoyed the gods. We used to cartwheel (the fastest method of travel) right up to the gods and be rude to them and they were like what are we gonna do about these humans?

So Zeus cut us in half down the middle, and turned our heads around so we’d be looking at the place we were cut and be ashamed (that’s what the bellybutton is). And then everyone was sad, except when they found another person and then they’d cling to them, all the time, to the point where they wouldn’t eat and would die. So Zeus was like let’s turn their genitals around, so now when they were clinging to each other and facing each other, they could come to something of a –resolution- of their feelings. Now they ate, but still they didn’t part from each other much.

There were three types of humans before they were split; one made of two females, one two males, and one was half male half female. So the people who came from one gender wholes are only attracted to the same gender and people from a male/female whole are attracted to the opposite gender [I never expected bi+ erasure to come from ancient Greece but there you go]

The male attracted men are the best cause that’s the most masculine. Agathon and Pausanias are totally in that group. [Wikipedia says Agathon was ‘notoriously effeminate’ so my guess is this is irony].

If you happen to find the specific half that you were separated from then you’ll be super in love and this is called soulmates.

And by the way I was totally not joking, why won’t you take me seriously? Is this cause I’m a comedy playwright?

Agathon: [Agathon has in my opinion the best speech about love, he says how it can be more than just romantic love, how it can be a passion for creating art/music etc, it’s good even though I can’t remember it that much]

Socrates: Instead of telling you my actual opinion I’m just going to quote this woman who once tried to recruit me into her mystery religion cult. [Mystery religion is an actual type of religious category, Christianity was one of them, though much later]. Her name was Diotima.

Diotima: Do you know anything about love Socrates?

Socrates: Nope I’m an idiot!

Diotima: That’s cool, I’ll tell you about it. It’s not all good and beautiful like you might think, in fact it desires what is good and beautiful so the god of love doesn’t have those things. So he’s not good and beautiful, or at least he’s somewhere inbetween, shades of grey and all that. He is the child of Poverty and Invention [I think. She goes on for ages and I can’t remember].

That’s the basic understanding of love but the only way you’ll fully understand it is if you initiate yourself into my religious cult! Just go through the initiation ritual and then you’ll have all the secrets revealed!

Socrates: And that’s my speech on love.

Everyone: Well I guess that’s it, I mean we left Socrates till last for a reason, pack your bags folks, that’s all –

Alcibiades aka “Alcopop”: [crashes through the doors] Hold my amphora!

Agathon: Hey Alcibiades we were just each saying an ode to the god of love do you want to join?

Alcibiades: I am utterly drunk so it won’t really be fair- Wait [sees Socrates] WHAT is THIS man doing here?!!!

[Socrates sighs]

Agathon: Well there’s a long and convoluted story behind it, you see someone I invited invited him, isn’t that crazy? [Ok I added that bit]

Alcibiades: Good luck trying to get me to speak in praise of love, this man [points at Socrates] REFUSES to let me praise any other man but him!

Socrates: It’s really the other way around

Alcibiades: Ok ok, I’ll compose an ode to Socrates and he can sit there and tell me if anything I say isn’t true. How about that Socrates? Would you agree to that?

Socrates: Sure

Alcibiades: Well fine then.

Alcibiades: Let me tell you what this man has done to me! I tried my hardest to seduce Socrates (and it should have been the other way around btw!) I tried to seduce him at the gym, I tried to seduce him after a dinner date, then I tried the direct approach in bed but he still refused to sleep with me!!! (Except in the literal non-sex sense). He won’t love me and it is a CRIME! Ugh but he’s such a good speaker no one else can speak like him, I want his wisdom listening to him speak is the only time that I don’t feel like I’m better than everyone else. I’m in constant awe of him even when we were in the military together he was noble and thoughtful and idiosyncratic and also saved my life that one time no matter how much salt I throw at this magnificent man GOD I can’t stop being in love with him it hurts!

Also he won’t let me sit next to Agathon cause he wants all the beautiful men to himself.

Everyone: Alcibiades we think you’re less drunk than you’re pretending to be.

[Then like, everyone in the street I guess, shows up at the party cause Alcibiades left the doors to Agathon’s house open and them’s the rules. Most people ended up crashing, Socrates stayed up all night chatting to someone (not Alcibiades or Agathon) cause he apparently is a superhuman who doesn’t get drunk, feel the cold or need to sleep.]

[And somehow this was all transcribed by Plato who, you may notice, wasn’t even there]

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