lives4lovesworld

[lives4lovesworld]

Dragons, their unique and extraordinary bond and why the binder is a red herald.

“If you read Fire and Blood, you’ll know there’s definitely a bond between the dragons and their riders and the dragons will not accept just any rider,” says Martin. “Some people try to take a dragon wind up being eaten or burned to death instead, so the dragons are terribly fussy about who rides them.” - Grrm November 2018

We shall not pretend to any understanding of the bond between dragon and dragonrider; wiser heads have pondered that mystery for centuries. We do know however, that dragons are not horses, to be ridden by any man who throws a saddle on their back. - writings of Gyldayn

Most speculations around dragons, the dragonbinder and any potential riders are blatantly rooted in nonsensical delusion and pure envy of House Targaryen and the power it derived of their dragons, and the deranged need to see the dragons fight and wreak havoc to finally villainize them all once and for all the eyes of the realm as the clowns of this fandom all do in their posts, so their excessive hatred is finally validated by canon. Nowhere is all this more apparent than in the ridiculous popularity of the theories that have Stannis Baratheon, Young Griff, Victarion and Euron Greyjoy become dragon riders, and more specifically all in context as enemies to Daenaerys.

It's truly astonishing what loops people jump through to make these theories appear even the slightest bit feasible;

Even if Stannis Baratheon would survive long enough to set eyes on Dany's dragons and even if the theory in and of itself wouldn't be a pathetic attempt by his delusional stans to still present him as a viable candidate for Azor Ahai Reborn. There was not one recorded incident of a Baratheon riding a dragon, and mind you Orys Baratheon was likely Aegon’s bastard brother yet neither he nor any of his closest descendants have been dragon riders, and each of them had more blood of the dragon than Stannis. The prerequisite of even being one.

Young Griff [or FAegon or Aegon VI] tho the most feasible of all the "candidates" it is ridiculous which lengths the proponents go to, to craft scenarios, where he, always a political enemy of Dany, somehow obtains one of her sons. It's often argue that, regardless of who Young Griff truly is, Targaryen or Blackfyre, due to his blood he must be a dragon rider! An equally bold as unfounded hypothesis: i) the concept that House Blackfyre would have been dragonlords as well had the dragons not be extinct by the time the cadet branch of House Targaryen was founded is purely speculative! Neither House Celtigar nor House Velaryon, two ancient Valyrian House, had been dragonslords. Hell, not even all members of House Targaryen had been. ii) Young Griff surviving long enough to set eyes onto Daenerys's dragons is as hypothetical as Stannis's prior, and given how he is currently risking an all-open war with only 5000 sellswords at his disposal with no prior war experience against the current reign is just as unlikely. iii) However, let's assume Young Griff indeed survives long enough to do so and ends up fighting Daenerys; as already stated dragons aren't mere mounts, they choose their riders and need to bond and for that, they need a considerable amount of time, training is time-consuming as well. So how exactly would Young Griff even get the chance to bond with either Rhaegal or Viserion? In addition, Daenerys's dragons are unique to their ancestors all of them having bonds to her as their cherished mother. Despite what the fandom argues, dragons are not nuclear bombs, they would never bond with someone who would want to severely harm or even kill their mother. Lastly iv) which is purely theoretical but IMO a very solid theory: @luchibelle theorized that Magister Illyiro Mopatis put the eggs into his son's cradle after the Targaryen fashion and hoped they would hatch. The man likely attempted several times to hatch them. In vain, he gifted them to Daenerys as bride's gifts. In all likelihood to make the marriage with Daenerys for Khal Drogo more desirable, for Dany's bride's gifts are his property, which the Magister needed for his scheme of Viserys as the evil invader with his foreign army of savages for his son to defeat as the gallant Aegon VI Targaryen. However, it does further contradict the speculation of Young Griff's potential being able to bond & ride a dragon.

So far Euron and Victarion Greyjoy are the only ones actively perusing Daenerys for her dragons, name and beauty, something none of the other "candidates" do which should at least be the bare basis on these speculations if you want to call them that way. However, the unquestionable fact that the iron borns do not possess a drop of the blood of the dragon should end all speculations then and there. The unfounded idea that Euron possesses unnatural power and/or uses the horn he proclaims is a tool that can subjugate dragons should serve as a substitute for the lack of valyrian is a jump through a loop unparalleled: i) While GRRM can stress as much as he wants that Euron is much more than what he appears to be; a megalomaniac sadistic busy-body. The Forsaken shows that Euron sacrifices humans and uses tortured captive priests to perform their magic FOR him. The power does not come from him, unlike Daenerys and some of the Starks. ii) the unwillingness of this fandom to see Euron's tale of him traveling to Valyria as a lie is on the same level as its unwillingness to see Petyr Baelish's one. Valyria after the doom is hell on earth. GRRM emphasized this more than once in his lore; Princess Aerea Targaryen, Garin the Great. Hell, he even wrote this scene. Yet because some really want to see their super specific unfeasible(!) fever dreams to validate their need to punish Daenerys and House Targaryen and their dragon for being perceived as obstacles to their favorite character's rise to power, Euron Greyjoy, a minor character introduced to us in ADwD, is the first to set foot onto Valyria after more than 400 years. iii) Since we have established the truthfulness of Euron's tale, let's extend the same skepticism to the "Dragonbinder" as well; true dragonbinders were used by pure-blooded Valyrians to tamp even the ill-willed and oldest dragons. In the millennia of wars between the dragonlords of the Freehold and the rest of Essos dozen of such horns must have been lost by riders and found by other folk. If the possession of one paired with enough magical expertise and lust for dragons would been sufficient to make anyone a dragon rider, the Freehold of Valyria would not have been the only civilization to tamp dragons. So why would two Greyjoys make the exception? On top of that, why would Euron let the horn out of his sight and more importantly give it into the custody of his brother he knows has wronged and slighted more than once? And if Euron is indeed an agent of the Others, of Ice GRRM won't have him subjugate one of the embodiments of Fire, which shall be triumphant at the end of the series. Lastly, the speculation of Victarion Greyjoy as a dragon rider is a misunderstanding, likely deliberate, of Moqorro and the dialog between him and Victarion; Moqorro is a red priest sent to Daenerys so she might know she has been identified as Azor Ahai Reborn by his temple. If he is even half as frantically loyal as Melisandre is to Stannis, Moqorro would never actively try to sabotage his Chosen One by helping someone, a non-believer at that, to rob her of her dragons. Creatures that are sacred to the religion of R'hllor. Not to mention who is Victarion to Moqorro? A pillaring slave catcher who worships an agent of the Others for everything that isn't R'hllor.

If speculations around potential dragon riders do not serve to despite Dany, then they are handed out as rewards to favorites. Nevertheless, GRRM has written to many hints for the other characters to become riders, likely Tyrion and Jon Snow, despite it being incredibly repugnant to me for numerous reasons; it has been Daenerys who has to do all the hard work, who figured out how to birth them, how to raise and feed them, how to train them and deal with all the moral dilemmas. No matter what it will always be cheap, offensive and lazy to me that two characters will swoop in, become legendary as as the first dragon riders woth Danya and reap all the glory, and given of which descent they will be, a violation of GRRM own lore and rules of physic. The excuse of 'its the ending of the world' is beneath his talent.

To conclude its despicable how something as unique as the bond between dragons and their riders and the otherworldliness being of the blood grants is cheapened by all these speculations, which are almost exclusively petty fantasies that should be impossible to happen.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #dragons #Old Valyria #dragonbinder #FAegon #Young Griff #Aegon VI Targaryen #Euron Greyjoy #debunking popular speculations #✨vent time✨ #stannis baratheon #victarion greyjoy

[lives4lovesworld]

✨ FANDOM SEPTAS ✨: tHe tArgAryEns aRe blo0d pUriStS aNd wHitE sUpRemAciStS! d0n't y0u n0w tHey pRaCtiCeD inCeSt?!

#asoiaf #✨fandom bs✨ #targnation #targcest for the win #me @ the septas thinking being political and morally correct is even a point of my list when enjoying a media; aww🥰 #@dryed up fandom septas having their daily meltdown over ppl just staning fictional magical hot folks passionately banging: ✨NOBODY CARES✨💅 #no but FR the amount of stuck up bitches here policing ppl just minding their own business with their pseudo biogenetic PHDs is insane #the 🤡 is only outshined with their unironical headpieces of how these p0eW p0errr Targaryen women (suddenly they care about them) would #have it so much ✨better✨ with arranged marriages to whoever crusty musty disgusting Baratheon/Stark/(x) Joe is the personal or BF's #self-insert😂 cause they be hitting better than the dragon mounting half-gods of brothers and embroidery is better than dragon riding dates #but the ones to take the cake are the delulus who would sell their mommas for Jon to fuck Sansa while pointing at snowstorm and needlehear #shippers while having the biggest boner for ✨duty✨

[lives4lovesworld]

there is something to be said about the pathetic and ridiculous stansas' strawman argument that Sansa is being hated for enjoying romance and fantasy stories and songs 😂;

When i) I have never witness this, its only ever said by her stans that she gets hated for that. So much so it's her most prominent hate that has to be called out.

iii) What takes the cake however is the hypocrisy (as always); childlike naivety is something to applaud when Sansa displays it, it makes her promising for any power role ("emBodImEnt Of hOpe foR fuTUre") a romantic idealist, but with Daenerys? Oh honey no, in that case its pathologize as megalomaniac delusion, first displayed trait of the genetic madness that slumbers within her. Sansa's qoute "If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me" gets her rewarded with the fandom's marxist nobleprize, meanwhile Daenerys gets thousand edits from them with the qoute "the way to hell is paved with good intentions" and is a cult leader and tyran unseen before for wishing to beloved by her subjects for her ACTUAL work and sacrifices.

ii) The idea alone that she; one of the most safe character in the series: a passive status qou conforming highborn girl with the most disproportionated popularity amongst the fandom, is single out in the series and hated for THAT is so ludicrous her stans should come up with a better strawman argument. She is not in the least unique (which is were her actual problems lies) for that; a lot of female AND male character in the series do so.

#asoiaf #✨vent time✨ #fandom wank #fandom double standards #fandom hypocrisy #anti sansa stans #anti stansas #daenerys targaryen #targnation

[lives4lovesworld]

all targ antis are acting like rejected incels; constantly running their mouth no one ask or cares for, recirculating whatever anti theory and nonsense woke buzzwords for the millionth time like anyone cares, inventing and canonizing their pathetic headcanons and then unironically turning whatever irrelevant bitchass fave they have into a Targaryen OC with AUs of them getting dragon eggs, being secret half Targaryens, dragonriders, getting all of Daenerys forces and prophecies + dozen atrocious ai edits of olivia or sophie in an elsa wig like pls 🤡

#the targ anti starter pack 101 🤡 #fandom wank #asoiaf #daenerys targaryen #anti targaryen haters #targnation #they literally live rent free in every member of this fandom's brian ✨iconic✨

[lives4lovesworld]

smartasses; pOweR cOrRuPTs aNd abs0luTE p0wER cOrRuPTs, invariable and with no regards to good intentions (funnily enough is only ever said in the context of talking about Daenerys and her ancestors)

also them about their favs; 🙈 or. "he is sUch a MaNNis" 🤤 (meant unironically) ThE kIng wHo cARed when Stannis runs around burning everbody left and right because he is megalomaniac, sucks strategically and nobody gives a lick about him or his cause + "I want my oh so gullible, naive fave of a litEtaL cHild in an absolute power" 🤡

same goes for the dragons; when their mother commands them she is hitler with nuclear weapons but any able-bodied joe in the series is just the man™ when they get them in their incels fans's power fantasies

#asoiaf #fandom wank #anti sansa stark #anti sansa stans #anti stansas #anti stannis baratheon stans #anti stannis mannis incels fan club #fandom hypocrisy 101 #targantion #daenerys targaryen #house targaryen #let's not talk about how sansa in an absolute power position would amplify her classism tenfold- (but depending on which trip her stans are #being a bigot is acTuaLly humanitarian apparently) #anti certain pathetic jon stans

[lives4lovesworld]

This meta will highlight GRRM own bias and double standards when it comes to his (= the narrative's) judgement of Aerys II Targaryen, as well as the insincerity of the fandom's obsession and exaggeration of Aerys II's "madness" and cruelty.

GRRM singles Aerys out in his cruelty and has it directly linked to his unstable mental state, which is quite ironic(?) if one i) actually consideres how normalized violence, collective punishment and arbitrariness in ASoIaF world is. Yet few and far between are actually mad, and even fewer dubbed as such, and ii) puts his in direct comparison to other characters, which are never condemned as much as Aerys (if at all) by the narrative. And the fandom naturally doubles down on GRRM hypocrisy (given how anti!Targaryen it is) and insists to exaggerate Aerys's madness in every sense to one up against Daenerys Stormborn.

Aerys is condemn for his preferred method of execution. The fandom even goes so far to write numerous metas arguing death-through-fire somehow is crueler, worser and morally more appaling than any other method, especially when it's a Targaryen monarch to use it. This absurdity as already been refuted a couple of times in the context of defending show!Daenerys burning large parts of her enemies in the field, instead of the having her men exclusively killing them in battle. But as always it falls on deaf ears, since this hypocritical fandom holds Targaryen (and only Targaryens) to modern standards, to the point where they are condemn for executing their enemies. PERIOD.

And Aerys is the biggest victim of this absurdity. Both within the fandom (since nobody cares for him, no one defends him in pointing out the double standards) and narrative (since Daenerys has, unlike what the fandom conjuncts out of thin air, never burned anyone but Mirri Maz Duur and is a rescuer above all so GRRM obviously does and can not condemn her for deeds she didn't commit).

For example, he and Stannis Baratheon have both burnt their hands for "bad counsel during the war". Qarlton Chelsted was burned for his objection against Aerys's plan to torch King's Landing and Alester Florent for the letter that offered Stannis's full surrender (x) to House Lannister, after his lethal demise at the Blackwater (x). Stannis's hand was even his kin (through marriage) and in killing him, he committed one of the gravest crimes in their world. Yet Stannis is neither condemn as "mad" for the execution nor for the kinslaying nor the style of said execution.

The only thing GRRM seems to condemn Stannis for are his reasons behind all of his "sacrifices"; which is to misuse the power of death for his own personal gain. Be it to murder Renly to avoid defeat, take a rival out and gain his army, for favorable winds for his expedition, put a stop to the blizzard or gain dragons/be Azor Ahai. Although all of Stannis's misfortunes in his failing campaign for the Iron Throne (his demise at the Blackwater, his inability to gain anyone's genuine support, House Karstark's betrayal and the blizzard) could be interpreted as narrative punishment, Stannis's reputation (as a righteous, capable man) within the narrative never suffers.

The fandom as well has no qualms how Stannis let his uncle be burned alive in order. Especially, those that refuse to accept that Stannis is in fact NOT Azor Ahai, do not even condemn for that. It's excused as "means to an end" or "products of his time". Another prime example of the fandom's blatant hypocrisy and double standards one might add; While members of House Targaryen are condemn for the use of magic, especially blood sacrifices, and Daenerys is even accuse of burning people alive and kinslaying without this being the case, Stannis is allowed to utilize (blood and dark) magic, (consider) murder and burn people as he pleases, (consider) kinslaying (nephew, brother uncle-in-law and in the future his own daughter) and still be proclaimed the Right Man to Rule™ and altruistic TKwC.

Somehow in the fandom's nonsensical moral belief system Aerys depriving sadistic pleasure in watching men burn makes it apparently morally more appaling than Stannis's religious frantic, megalomaniac reasoning ("for the greater good") behind his executions (and given the fact that he is in fact NOT Azor Ahai/The Chosen One one could argue all these sacrifice are completely in vain.)

Aerys's cruelty is not unique for the ASoIaF world. And more importantly, I would dare to say that most of his "atrocities" such as i) the annihilation of House Darklyns and Hollard ii) the maiming of Ilyan Payne iii) his execution of Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark and their escort and his call for Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon's heads and iv) him prohibiting Elia Martell and her children to leave King's Landing, would not be seen as one of a madman, if Aerys's mental decline would have NOT been as apparent.

i) Lord Deny seized his King, killed his escort and subjected Aerys to torture for about half a year and threatened to have him killed in hopes to get the desired charter for Duskendale granted, that had been denied.

This was unprovoked high treason and broke all the laws such as the sacred guest right, the king's peace and all vows to obey and defend the king. How exactly should a king have dealt with such an uprising and insult to his person and political power? Which ruler would have suffered such grand affront, without exerting harsh punishment? Which ruler could have even allowed himself to be merciful, if it meant he will be seen as a weak king, signaling to the rest of the realm that one can take the king captive and hold hostage and get away with it?

To put in perspective; Robert Baratheon brutally smashed Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, burnt their homes, broke their castles, raped and murder the common folk and lastly gave Balon's last son as hostage to Eddard Stark to secure Balon's submission (x) after his elder brothers were slain. House Reyne and House Tarbeck were both in debt to House Lannister. Soley to restore House Lannister's prestige, Tywin demanded immediate repayment from them, (hostages if it was not possible). Both houses refused. Despite Tytos Lannister settling the matter, Tywin deliberately provoked both houses by ordering their respective lords to answer to Casterly Rock for their crimes. When refused, Tywin (without the leave of his lordly father!) raised an army and started his war of annihilation. The ruins of these houses' castles were left as reminders of the fate that awaits those who scorn the power of Casterly Rock, and "The Rains of Castamere" was written as a tribute to the event. Stannis Baratheon considered torching and raiding Claw Isle as punishment for its Lord bending the knee in captivity and House Stark extinguished House Greystark when it rose in rebellion together with House Bolton.

None of these extreme violent acts are deemed as "[their] terrible revenge" nor are these men seen as mad, cruel or unfit. And mind you, no one of these men experienced captivity and torture on their own person.

When one such reported that the captain of the Hand's personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers. - TWoIaF; The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

ii) The maiming of Ilyan Payne is seen as way too extreme even for ASoIaF (only exclusively by the fandom) and as "Aerys being unable to hear the hard truth", despite a monarch (unfortunately) being well in his rights to teach his subject "respect", if he openly mocks his better, extreme violent punishment from a ruler being normalized as sign of strength and a warning to any potential rebels.

The crimes everything boils down to;

The full depth of King Aerys's madness was subsequently revealed in his depraved actions against Lord Stark, his heir, and their supporters after they demanded redress for Rhaegar's wrongs. Instead of granting them fair hearing, King Aerys had them brutally slain, then followed these murders by demanding that Lord Jon Arryn execute his former wards, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: Robert’s Rebellion

iii) While the inverse-annals are clearly baised, GRRM has made it clear that Aerys is responsible for the rebellion (x), and that his call to execute them all was another product of his cruelty and paranoia. Which omits any nuance the situation had such nuances as;

Brandon and Rickard were on their way again back to Riverrun for the impending wedding between him and Catelyn Tully, when word reached Brandon of Lyanna's supposed abduction by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Brandon, along with his squire Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister, rode to King's Landing immediately. Upon entering the Red Keep, Brandon shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die". Rhaegar was not present, however, and Brandon and his companions were arrested by King Aerys II Targaryen and charged with plotting Rhaegar's murder. - awoiaf.westeros.org; Aerys II Targaryen: Year of the False Spring 

A paramount lord and his heir barging into the royal court of a king (half of which would rather dethrone him and most did not see him as the ruler of the realm) and brazenly demand the crown prince's head BASED ON RUMORS alone in front of said court. For a supposed crime that stands in direct contrary to what is known of said heir (x, x, x).

While it's a well established fact that this fandom only intrest is to present House Stark as poor, oppressed, altruistic and wronged victims and House Targaryen as the evil warmongering lunatics, it is still mind blowing to see people glorify Brandon's stupidity as Protective Big Bro Thang™, talk how he should have escape the situation unscattered (because they believe the starks are the Main Characters™ and should have all the Syndromes (like plot armor) of one) and his execution being yet another uncalled atrocity of Aerys's madness, when Brandon literally has committed high treason through his rash actions. Even Catelyn call Brandon's action "rash" and his would-be father-in-law Hoster Tully called him a "gallant fool" for it.

A highborn father that would have politely ask them to lay out their complains (again) behind closed doors so he might calmly listen to these allegations and their wish to see his oldest one dead after the spectacle of their entrance, has yet to be named by obnoxious neutrals and "intellectuals" preaching such scenario as the solution to this fiasco.

Realistically speaking, what should Aerys have done with a paramount lord, his heir and their escort breaking the king's peace and threatening House Targaryen's power by demanding the Crown Prince's head? Insulted this gravely that they about to rise in rebellion with mighty allies. When it comes to this situation Aerys had been caught between a rock and a hard place;

He could have a) dismissed the accusations, let them go home and have the realm think of him as weak. Home to their seats, where hot headed Brandon would have likely raised the north in rebellion anyway and whose brother's foster brother Robert Baratheon would have likely joined him for his wounded pride. Risk the riverlands to stand with them as well for their siege lord's daughter Catelyn would have wed Brandon Stark. Possibly the Vale too, for Jon Arryn's beloved forster son's brother has raised in rebellion and his bride is Lord Tully's other daughter and Brandon Stark's sister in law. Or b) use this incident to dispose his 'disloyal son', so his chosen heir Viserys would have less threats in his ascend on the throne later on, yet simountanastly signaling the realm that one can demand a Targaryen prince's head based on rumors alone. Establishing a most dangerous precedent for the future of House Targaryen.

What might have salvage the situation without an all-out-war or an unacceptable, most dangerous precedent for House Targaryen('s might) would have been to dismiss the accusations. Instead of summoning the fathers of the escort and executing them all along with Rickard and Brandon, he should have send them to the Wall (which would have made Eddard Lord of Winterfell) and send for Benjen Stark as cupbearer or squire at the court (so he might functions as hostage over the North).

And even this might have not have worked for i) it would have been still a too mild punishment for conspiring to murder the Iron Throne' heir and ii) for they could have just refuse to take the black once at the Wall, return to Winterfell with the help of the Night Watch and call to war anyway (though House Tully and Arryn might have been more reluctant to join them in such a scenario)

Do these nuances make Rickard, Brandon and Co's execution less gruesome and the call for Eddard and Robert's death morally justified? No, but they show that they could have been committed by a sane sovereign too. But instead of being seen as actions of a madman they would have been seen as too-harsh (failed) precautions. (IMO Tywin and Stannis would act the same way in such a situation with the big difference that they would be cold and caculative, whereas Aerys had become aroused)

Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. - TWpIaF; The Fall of the Dragons; The End

iv) Same with iii) if one was to look at the political situation (especially before the rebellion) and analyze Aerys's actions without dismissing them all as one kf a deranged lunatic, this particular action was actually quite savvy.

Prior to the rebellion, the royal court had been devided into two parties; the king's and the prince's;

Chief amongst the Mad King's supporters were three lords of his small council: Qarlton Chelsted, master of coin, Lucerys Velaryon, master of ships, and Symond Staunton, master of laws. The eunuch Varys, master of whisperers, and Wisdom Rossart, grand master of the Guild of Alchemists, also enjoyed the king's trust. Prince Rhaegar's support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar's friends and allies in King's Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Essentially the Second Dance of Dragons was brewing;

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King's Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar's supporters and the king's. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring  

So contrary to the fandom's insistence of Aerys's reason behind his prohibition for Elia and the children to leave the capital being unreasonable paranoia or malice (or even godamn racism??), Aerys was smart. By ensuring that they were located in the capital, he gave the dornish forces a reason to defend it (essentially ensuring his survival) then had Elia and the children been safely in Sunspear or Dragonstone, they would have had no reason to continue to fight (and be slowly overrun) for the defense of King's Landing if the only one remaining there was the king that had disinherited Rhaegar's entire lineage and proclaimed Viserys his heir after Rhaegar death at the Trident (ergo putting an end to Dorne's hope to size the Iron Throne through a Martell-Queen Consort and later a half Martell-king).

Also contrary to the fandom's insistence on how Aerys's cruelty and paranoia breaks even Westeros's norm in taking hostages in war, even from his supposed allies and families (through marriages) is not unusual; the kings of the Winter are known to have taken child hostages to secure their subjects' submission, Quentyn had been given to Lord Yronwood as "blood debt" by Doran Martell. Theon had been taken hostage by Eddard Stark to ensure his father's submission. The Redwyne twins have been taken hostages by the Lannister court to ensure their father's loyalty (to lend them his fleet in their war). Where is the condemnation for them? Also contrary to the fandom's insistence highborn hostages, especially those who are considered family members are also not treated badly. They experience most of the privileges their birth and status grants them. Cases such Sansa in King's Landing and Jaime in Riverrun are the expection, not the rule.

But what is to expect from a fandom that lays the blame for Elia Martell and her children's gruesome murders on Aerys Targaryen (her father-in-law and their grandfather) and Rhaegar Targaryen (her by-then dead husband and their father) instead on the heads of the rebels like the liege lord of the men to commit the murders (Tywin Lannister) or the self-styled king (Robert Baratheon) who sanctioned these murders later (going so far as to making mentioned liege lord his father-in-law)?

Aerys II Targaryen has always been exclusively presented by the fandom as this horrendous sadistic monster without a heart. Every act of his a epitome of stupidity and cruelty with Aerys's madness as an inevitable by-product from coming from an incestuous union, despite this not supported being the text.

Aerys Targaryen was not born that way. His mental state in his later years was a product of the immense trauma he experienced throughout his entire life; from witnessing the death of his entire family when he was 15 years old, to being powerless as he and Rhaella were forced to suffer still births, miscarriages and dead babes in the cribs to his imprisonment and torture in Duskendale (x). The justified constant fear of being dethroned by his own son (x) and the feeling of never being deemed worthy or competent enough by others to the point where he not even seen as The King (x) likely only added to his instability and cruelty.

His paranoia, especially concerned Tywin Lannister and Rhaegar Targaryen, was also anything but irrational; Aerys was not in the wrong to mistrust Rhaegar as he later planned to dethrone him, which could only result in Aerys’s death should Rhaegar wish to ascend the throne as comfortable as possible. Nor for being wary of Tywin Lannister, who gambled with his life at Duskendale in hopes to get Rhaegar on the throne with his daughter as his queen. (x)

Aerys was not a fool to prevent Tywin from becoming Rhaegar’s father-in-law. Before the rebellion, they were the biggest threats to Aerys’s reign. Not only did he prevent an alliance between his two greastest threats, in giving Rhaegar Elia Martell to wife. The princess to the least densly populated kingdom (which is quite hated by the more "civilized" southern kingdoms such as the Dornish Marches, Reach and Stormlands for their blood feuds (x,x)) and with a small army, he also prevented Rhaegar from gaining exponentially more support had he married a noble daughter from a house with more wealth, resources and men (like Cersei Lannister)

And mind you (!) had Steffon Baratheon succeeded in finding a "maid of noble birth from an old Valyrian bloodline" in the Free Cities, Aerys would have given Rhaegar's a woman to wife that has absolutely no ties to any kingdom (which would have given him no political advantage beside whatever wealth her family would have had across the sea) and who would bee seen as 'foreign stranger', similar to Larra Rogar, Viserys II's wife.

Such a choice at the time was politically quite savvy: His supposed heir secured the succession without shifting the power balance too much by preventing Rhaegar from amassing even more support through an more politically advantageous match. That this choice later on backfired in the face of an external political threat (e.g. the rebellion) was unforeseeable and unfortunate.

Jaime's rise to a kingsguard was as well a less then perfect solution by Aerys for his (justified) fears; in appointing Jaime as kingsguard he had gained the most valuable hostage against any possible rebellion from Tywin Lannister, but he also had to endure Tywin's son day and night as shadow. Aerys seemed to have played by the motto "keep your friends close, but your foes closer" with Jaime as he had previously done with Tywin, whom he had refused to dismiss as Hand or accept his resignation (x, x) and suffered greatly from it (at first mentally, later with his life). (x)

As said, the reason why I wrote this meta was to showcase the imsincerity of the fandom's obsession and exaggeration of Aerys II's "madness" and cruelty, as well as to point the nuances that are often overlooked simply because Aerys was mad.

Afterall, how comes that Aerys's cruelty and madness is more empathized than anyone else's by the fandom? Where does the intrest and obsession for it as well as the need to deliberately twist Aerys's relatively peaceful reign (x, x) into one of terror unseen before come from?

Simple because Aerys's cruelty and madness must be given such great narrative and political importance, and his reign must be one of the darkest times yet, so when dany antis proceed to write their "metas" of how of Daenerys will be rejected by Westeros, never know home or love, become the-hidden-mad!queen-all-along™ and step into her father's foot steps by torching King's Landing and committing mass murder, have a "basis". The first one is even more ridiculous considering that Rhagear was beloved during his days, and is still, despite actually living under Aerys's roof till his 16th birthday, unlike Dany.

Nothing more, and one knows so because the same people won't predicted the same for their tool-character "Aegon VI" who is the Mad King's supposed grandson and son to Prince Rhaegar, whom most of them condemn just as harshly for whatever headcanon (pRophECy oBbsEsSed, vIsenYa) that has been treated as canon for too long. Not to mention that there is an abundance of characters whose fathers were horrible, yet there aren't daily posts on a character's utter mental decline based upon their father's flaws. (bioessentialism)

In conclusion and defense of Aerys II Targaryen; i) he is as much of a victim of tragedy and cruelty than he was an enabler, ii) his paranoia was not unreasonable iii) his cruelty is not at all unique for the medivial ASoIaF world nor in comparison to other characters. In fact neither his paranoia nor his cruelty makes him stand out in his madness, but rather his manic-depressive behavior iv) how his mental state does not render all of his decisions as one of a mad man.

I would also like to say that a forced abdication of Aerys decided by a Great Council with Rhaegar ascending the throne would have neither be the perfect solution as it is often presented. Had his abdication gone relatively smoothly (which would NOT have necessarily be the case (x)) it would shaken the laws and rules of Westeros to its core.

As the first Great Council had done it, it would have given the lords of the realm again the idea and power to decide who is to rule them. Which would have not be the positive, progressive, humanitarian step towards democracy as most mistake it but path a way of war and instability ambitious, vile lords would have misused for their own gain yet again.

If the first Great Council had established an iron precedent on the matter of succession, than such a second one (in which the lords could abdicate their rightful king because they are not content with him) would have path the way for any man to inherit his male relative's position if he manges to convince enough of his subjects to abdicate their current sovereign and put him as his heir (as son, brother, nephew, grandson etc...) through bribery and whatnot.

An era of chaos unseen would follow. Just imagine what the lords of the realm would have done with a king like Aegon V that would robb them some of their absolute power through his reforms. It would hollow out the crown of any power to protect and serve the small folk (be it through humanitarian reforms, against its lords or plan costly, necessary infrastructure)

The wars such as the Wot5K are a direct result of the illegitimacy of Robert's rebellion and how it had shaken Westeros's laws. Instead of the once rather cemented hereditary monarchy, Robert opened the door for Westeros to be wreaked by every sovereign that believes he can muster enough manpower to establish himself a self-styled King. (x)

IMO instead of gathering a Second Great Council, Rhaegar honestly should have just found a discreet way to have his father's poisoned. Although this would have been OCC for noble, valiant Rhaegar and quite harsh to expect from a son to do to his father (no matter their estranged relationship) it would the most practical decision.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #targnation #aerys ii targaryen #robert's rebellion #rhaegar targaryen #elia martell #tywin lannister #robert baratheon #eddard stark #rickard stark #brandon stark (son of rickard stark) #jon arryn #house darklyn #house hollard #the defiance of duskendale #sack of king's landing #this will definitely become my most controversial meta (the way I will be canceled for this-)

[lives4lovesworld]

Jon Snow - The Black Bastard at the Wall

#asoiaf #asoiafpure #jon snow #jon snow edit #jonsnowedit #character edit #litedit #booksociety #*mine: edit #sansa stans dni #stansas dni #jonsas dni #five mains

[lives4lovesworld]

As already said here, given the utter lack of proposals, betrothals and marriages in the show its all more interesting to speculate about all the possible alliances and scheme built through them in the books to come;

It's safe to say that southern marriages for House Stark (the north in general) will be difficult given the state of the North and with Robb being known to have broken his vow to marry one of House Frey's daughters. Outrage at the red wedding or not, his oath-breaking won't reflect well on his siblings and will make others more reluctant to match marriages between them and House Stark (any northern house). Not that the Starks could afford to marry outside the north, first they need to reestablish House Stark's dominance over the North.

When Robb's declare will become public and Jon Snow/Stark starts to reach for the northern crown, potential supporters could easily use this opportunity to offer their support and loyalty only in exchange for one of their daughters to be his queen. The question is just how his "desertion" from the Night Watch or his resurrection will be faced by the north. A marriage to a Manderly daughter would have many benefits; it's the wealthiest bannermen, Lord of the only true (port) city in the north with naval power, and given that House Manderly will likely claim Rickon as their ward, Jon would be smart to sway them to his side as allies so they won't contest for the throne "for" Rickon under the disguise of a regency till he comes of age.

A betrothal for Bran Stark is also worth to speculate as edlest trueborn son of Eddard; whenever he will contest for the northern crown with Jon as per the original outline or resign himself as "spare" to him, the same speculation for Jon apply to Bran as well; alliances built through marriage. The question is just how much his age and ableism will make him less attractive as a match in the eyes of the north. Meera Reed would be a potential bride as long, leal companion and daughter to Holland Reed for example, but the great age difference (seven years) between groom and bride could pose a problem. Although Larra Rogare was nine year her husband Viserys ii senior, so why not?

When Arya Stark has regained her identity, it's certain that she will gather many suitors as maiden daughter and princess, at least in the north. So a marriage or betrothal is entirely probable. The question is just what would be politically necessary for the North and House Stark's dominance? An esteemed leader of the Free Folk to integrate them better (a re-do of Signor and Alys Karstark)? Or an influencial northern lord to re-strengthen House Stark's dominance? Or a southern lord to more fertile lands to built the much needed ties to the south for supplies during winter?

A betrothal for Rickon Stark as trueborn, able-bodied son and likely soon-to-be ward to the wealthy Manderlys is also possible. The question remains just how much his incredibly young age, his position as "only" second or third in line will influence his attractiveness in the eyes of the realm. House Manderly will likely propose a betrothal between him and a daughter of them.

A marriage for Arianne Martell as heir to Sunspear is also likely. Assuming her goal to become Princess of Dorne won't change, a marriage to the most influencial dornish Lord would strengthen her political power and make the most sense; a dornish lord will more likely respect the dornish laws that install Arianne as sovereign, and while Dorne is indisputable the most progressive kingdom, with a "strong man" at her side it will be more lenient towards a woman as their sovereign. But a successful marriage to Dorne's neighboring kingdoms would have its perks too; peace at least at one boarder, and ties to the Reach or the Stormlands' more fertile lands and wealth. (Although their blood feuds (x, x) will be difficult to overcome.)

The highly speculated marriage to "Aegon VI Targaryen"/Young Griff is unlikely IMO. Any marriage to him includes way too many risks; his more than dubious heritage (people mock him for a pretender, especially if he fail to marry Daenerys), together with his lack of power (only 5.000 sellswords) and his open war against the Lannister-Tyrell regime simply make him a disastrous match. It would especially be foolish to arrange such marriage, when House Martell still clinges to the hope that Daenerys Stormborn has taken Quentyn as consort (x). Two Targaryen monarchs with Martells consorts would be very dangerous; the war that would (likely) follow would (also likely) end up with the possible faux and his party dead and the indisputable Targaryen royal with dragons as victor.

A marriage for Westeros's most eligible bachelor Willas Tyrell, heir to Highgarden, is also likely to happen. As heir to one of the most fertile, influential (having the faith and the citadel be located in Oldtown) and (as of now) untouched lands he will be able to pick whoever he desires, despite the rampant ableism. A marriage to a powerful vassal like House Redwyne, Tarly or Hightower given the lack of highborn maiden daughters of other secured Great Houses, a marriage outside of the Reach would be unwise and less-profitable.

Depending whenever Margaery will still be married, Willas could even hope for a marriage to Daenerys Stromborn (assuming Willas remains unmarried this long). Such a marriage would politically (and realistically) make the most sense; Daenerys would secure herself the most fertile and wealthy kingdom in her conquest and House Tyrell would rise higher than ever before and above everyone as consort to Aegon The Conqueror with teats and dragons.

Tyrion Lannister is a bit tricky. While he would make for a good bachelor should he be installed as Lord of Casterly Rock and as close advisor to the Dragon Qheen, the issues of his crimes (kinslaying and falsely kingsaying), Westeros's general rampant ableism and him already being married will deminish his attractiveness in the eyes of the realm and a good match more difficult. While the issue of his marriage could be solved rather quickly either by proclaiming disappeared Sansa as dead (assuming she fails to regain her identity or/and truly dies), or (which is less likely) an annulment. A Lannister of Lannisport or another powerful vassal would strengthen his claim and give him much needed ties. But a daughter of one of the many houses House Lannister has turned into foes for the sake of unity and peace has it merits as well.

A marriage for Asha Greyjoy is less likely to happen; she has been driven into exile due to lack of support from her own people, being defeated (which cements her people's archaic views about her), her (tho not consummated) marriage to ancient Erik Ironmaker and fear for her own life (because despite being a woman and the kingsmoot crowning Euron, Asha and her claim still pose a threat to his reign).

Nevertheless, it's intresting to speculate; A marriage to a powerful iron born House would at least get her a place in the islands back, and thus get her closer to her father's desired Seastone, if her uncles die without heirs. A marriage to the main land is unlikely given the iron borns' horrible reputation, even if Asha could risk such a marriage in the first place by having enough support from her people. Under different circumstances such a marriage (to a kingdom with a western coastline) could be a step towards a tender peace between it and the iron islands.

Daenerys Stormborn as mother of dragons, heir to the throne and commander of vast armies remains the most eligible bachlorette of the planetos. Like Willas Tyrell (the most suitable groom for her caliber), she could pick whoever she desires; one of her new allies to strengthen the ties. A son of old loyalists such as House Tarly, Tyrell, Hightower, Martell or even Velaryon. Even a foreigner like a son of the golden blood of Volantis should she desires to do so (for love or as substitute for a Targaryen brother to keep the blood as pure as possible). Hadn't the recent wars turned once great and powerful houses into beggars, a fromer rebellious (and very bold) House could have negotiated their subjugation in exchange for a marriage with Daenerys. But alias;

House Baratheon is going to be extinct and the Stormlands have turned into shambles (and will likely even be worser off should a greyscale plague break lose).

House Stark has lost its might (and won't regain it over night) to demand one of them as consort in exchange for their subjugation, and the north is indisputable the kingdom in the worst conditions (is hit the hardest by winter, mass exodus of their ancestral enemy the Free Folk, poor in minerals, impossible to cultivate during winter, political uproar due to the many fractions, lack every good imaginable)

House Tully is dethroned and reduced to only one two members; the already married Edmure Tully, currently imprisoned at Catserly Rock, and disappeared, forever-bachelor Brynden Tully, who would be too old for Daenerys as consort anyway. While the once fertile and flourishing Riverlands have become a burnt wasteland, wreaked by outlaws.

House Lannister and the Westerlands have almost destroyed their might and influence and made every Great House an enemy in their wars. It's about to be ruined, heirless, with no allies. Any proposals to anyone with its spilled blood between them would be... unwise, to say the least.

House Arryn and the Vale with its fertile and (as of now) untouched lands is the only one of the fromer rebels that could dare to propose a marriage. Yet Robert Arryn being the sickly (likely soon-to-die) eight year old would not be an acceptable consort. Harry Harrdyng's relatively low birth and the fact that he will have to prove himself first to the Vale (since his claim comes from his mother) could pose a problem as well, when it comes to him being a candidate for Daenerys or any other maiden daughter of another Great Houses as consort. (Speaking hypothetical, given that there are none)

A betrothal for Robert Arryn to one of the Lords of the Declaration could be possible. Vale lords had courted widowed Lysa in AGoT for power, so why wouldn't they do so with her son? It would strengthen his position so many deem him (due to his health condition and being predominantly raised by his mother, who was never viewed as "one of them") unworthy. The question remains just how much his young age, ableism and patriarchy will influences his attractiveness in the eyes of the lords. Though with the high chance of him dieing soon there likely won't be a marriage to follow any betrothal.

A marriage for Harrold Harrdyng is also likely given his position as heir to the Vale (for as long Robert Arryn has no sons). Yet, again given his relatively low birth and his claim coming from his mother, a marriage to a powerful potential vassal to strengthen his claim and power would be the most savvy choice. Perhaps a Royce or a Waynwood? A marriage to a daughter of another kingdom would be quite risky, unless it would be a very powerful house of the Reach for example.

While the already above stated facts make Young Griff/"Aegon VI Targaryen" a disastrous match for the Great Houses, there surely are enough ambitious and foolish minor houses dreaming of glory and crowns that could be intrested in a marriage. While his kingmakers dream of a marriage between him and Daenerys (x, x) as well as Dorne's support (x), what could and is more likely to happen is a minor house forcing his hand in marriage as Walder Frey had done with Robb Stark, when he was faced with the dilemma of crossing the twins.

I have already listed my reasons here, why I doubt Petyr's "plan" to wed Sansa to Harrold will come true (or is even his plan) and why a betrothal or marriage for Sansa Lannister is unlikely. Sansa is already married, and an annulment while feasible is unlikely; Why would the faith do so? There has been no precedent in Westeros's lore of an annulled marriage. Simply because the bride wishes so? Since when did the faith ever respect the wishes of women? While the marriage was not consummated, she has no proof other than her sweet words. Not to mention as accused kingslayer and wanted criminal by the crown for regicide with a defty bounty (x) the faith will more likely behead her than grant her an annulment. What's more likely is that should Tyrion "disappeared" (/remain in Essos) long enough to be declared dead, Sansa will be a widow. Which doesn't improve her worth on the political marriage market much (as the orphaned, friendless, penniless and disinherited beggar tween Lady Lannister she makes a more disastrous match than "Aegon VI Targaryen"/Young Griff), but at least she can search for a match.

#asoiaf #asoiaf speculation #daenerys targaryen #jon snow #arya stark #brandon stark #meera reed mentioned #arianne martell #aegon vi targaryen (son of rhaegar) #young griff #sansa lannister #willas tyrell #robert arryn #sweetrobin #harry the heir #harrold hardyng #edmure tully #asha greyjoy #robb stark mentioned

[lives4lovesworld]

Daenerys could literally be the devil reincarnated and it is still infeasible for her to be the one to torch King's Landing;

A desperate Cersei (who is essentially a female!Aerys), a violent hord of religious zealots, two (rightfully) blood-thirsty sand snakes, the tyrells and lannisters about to be at each other's throats, shady Qyburn doing gods know what, are all IN King's Landing. A cocky would-be claimant is marching with deadly-infected, nothing-to-lose, bell-triggered Jon who-regrets-burning-a-city Connington TOWARDS it, and murderous crazy newly crowned Euron Greyjoy lusts for the Iron Throne.

Yet according to the ✨smart book experts✨all these plots will apparently freeze and these murderous hotheads will patiently wait for Daenerys to speed run through all of her essosi plots; travel to Vaes Dothrak, gather all the khalassars, travel to Meereen by horse pace, fight the war against the slavers, deal with Victarion, the Iron fleet and the Dragonbinder, deal with Viserion and Rhaegal being loose, Quentyn's death and his remaining companions, Yunkai and its allies, burn the dead from the pale mare and the war, divide fiends from foes, which the later includes her husband and the Green Grace (tho both could be dead by the time Daenerys returns) meet Red Priest Moqorro and Maester Marwyn, hear about Azor Ahai and the Others, meet Tyrion Lannister, face Jorah Mormont again, hear from Illyiro and Varys's many schemes, mend the wounds of her people, get a large enough fleet to carry her host somewhere and cross half of the world (a journey for which Tyrion and Quentyn needed an enitre book) with a bus stop at Volantis, where she will likely meet Benerro and The Widow At The Waterfront and council the slave revolt, etc... so she is The One™ to barbecue King's Landing since *checks note*... itS sO SUbvErsIve, but also; iTs bEen bUilT uP to ThAT sInCe Aegon’s Conquest. 🤡

#the audacity #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #✨vent time✨ #fandom wank #daenerys targaryen #fuck dany antis #the experts in question; 🐢dumbkween 🦋 and ms. lannister"(dAny wiLl chOse- BITCH I know this must be really hard to grasp for someone that #lack basic reading comprehension but SHE ALREADY DID THAT LIKE 482 TIMES) #also another brand new concept; P A C I N G (ever heard of it?) #like OMG can one dany anti FOR ONCE make basic commen sense? #not all idiots are dany antis but (apparently) all dany antis are idiots #watch them change KL to Oldtown the way these 🤡s changed the water garden to KL #In these speculations Jon Connington and (f) Aegon either just seemed to sit in the Stormlands forever or need three years to get to King's #Landing. OR they conquered the 7K in 2 months no biggie. Euron just endlessly floats in the ocean #Cersei will just look out of a window for #84 years OR die IMMEDIATELY. The sand snake the zealots the two hostile armies just magically disappear or become brainless pawns.

[lives4lovesworld]

Something that makes me laugh when sansa stans coo about her ✨intelligence✨, especially in the context of degrading Dany (and Arya to a degree) for her lack of a formal education:

Sansa's last class was whichever she recieved pre-Ned's imprisonment when she was twelve and that by a septa, not even a maester. Yet, from the three girls, Sansa always had the 'best' chance to *actually* recieved a 'proper' education due to always living in close proximity to a maester. In the Vale she may still be very much a pawn, but she could have at least ask to receive lessons, given how Petyr grants her numerous extravagant privileges (x, x)

And yet, GRRM chose her not to do so. In fact she scoffs and dismisses Master Coleman every chance. If Sansa would be as smart as her fans boasts you would assume she would try to resume her education.

Daenerys and Arya on the other hand exploit every chance they get to broaden their horizons; Daenerys can read and write (which is even more remarkable given the fact that she indeed hadn't had maester growing up), speaks multiple languages discusses with and listens to more educated, wise and diverse advisors, and educates herself with books (x). Arya (who lost the privilege the day of father's imprisonment) has proven that she is a dedicated pupil to Syrio Forel, she manages to secured herself a place as a novice at the House of Black and White, where she learns diverse languages, history, poisons, how to stalk and kill unsuspiciously, to dedicate lies and to lie and tasked to learn 3 new things everyday.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #daenerys targaryen #arya stark #anti sansa #anti stansas #anti sansa stans #✨vent time✨ #fandom wank

[lives4lovesworld]

A response to @stargareed's comments, he has deleted (or don't show up anymore because he has me block lol) and his response to @theblackqveen's post.

His comments:

First off all, what an absolute clown do you have to be to come here, guns a-bazing, snippy and condescendingly insinuate that I would block you or erase a hypothetical "refutation" of yours when you not only have i) spammed my comment section without adressing any of the arguments and facts in my reblog contradicting your bending and rewriting of the laws of inheritance so they might support your wish of a) Jon having any claim whatsoever to the Iron Throne and b) Daenerys having none, but then proceed to ii) delete your comments and/or block me ? Excuse me??

@lives4lovesworld If I reply to your long response to me, are you gonna leave it up or block me so people can't see it?

Before I begin to yet again refute all this nonsense, I have to say; I have never seen a person writing so much nonsensical fallacious bullshit that does i) neither adressed the points I have made prior ii) nor support their own nor iii) matter in the discussion to begin with and then iv) continues to write a response in which he contradicts himself??

So besides you not even addressing, let alone try and disassembled all the facts (such as the laws of inheritance, the workings of absolute monarchy and validity of king regardless of his mental state) that refute your brazen inaccurate statements of Jon (as a secret bastard) to have any claims, and Daenerys supposedly losing her claim for further rewriting how laws of inheritance work and your (deliberate, dare I say so) misunderstanding of Daenerys and her position in AGoT, you also did not answer any of my previous questions: What purpose Robb's declare than has (besides removing Sansa from the succession) if a bastard has claims regardless if he legitimized or not? Or if Sansa, by your logic, has lost all her claims to Winterfell as well, because she had "alllowed" her betrothal to kill her father? if Catelyn by your incredibly flawed preception has "allowed" her brother's father-in-law to murder her son?

@theblackqveen Dany was complicit in Viserys's death. She didn't even try to stop her husband through Viserys was begging her to. A Westerosi lord might say, "So your husband killed Viserys, and you didn't even try to stop him? That's pretty convenient, isn't it? Almost like you're unfairly profiting from your brother's death."

Yeah... Viserys was also threatening Daenerys not mere seconds ago. If you argue Daenerys should have fought harder for her king, than Viserys should have protected and respected her as person, as his sister and as his heir. If you argue Aerys's valdity as king can be dismissed (so you can and everbody else should dismiss his decree) because he was obviously not of sound mind than Daenerys can dismiss Viserys as her king too, because he was obviously not sound of mind too.

Fortunatly, this is NOT HOW INHERITANCE WORKS (for the chaos that would be legtimized that way would out to TWot5K). All heirs "profit" from their testator's death, so one can accuse them all for "unfairly profiting" from them. But no one does, beacuse that's not the world ASoIaF is. And even if there would be lords to share your opinion, these lords could not argue that Daenerys has lost her claim on a legislative level, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HOW THEIR LAWS WORK. I don't know how somebody has to articulate it to you that a person's reaction and actions surrounding AND to his testator's death is not of concern when it comes to his position as heir, when a person can literally murder his testator without losing his rights as said testator's lawful heir.

It's your personal opinion that a person should not inherited from someone if they fail to prevent the testator's death or are in your eyes a "complict" or fail grieve them a certain way. THAT'S YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, NOT THE LAW. Although given the fact that Daenerys tried to prevent his deathh by pleaded Viserys to sheath his sword, and offered him her dragon eggs (her most prized property) it is apparent that you want to disinherited Daenerys soley because she did not meet YOUR expectations on how she "should" have acted.

@music-of-dragons It could depend on why the Mad King made Viserys his "new heir". If he did so because he was pissed at Dorne…then his rationale might not apply to non-Dornish Jon. And we know he was very pissed at Dorne: "When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone. . . ." (TWOIAF)

AGAIN as already stated you have yet to adress and try to disassembled the stated facts from my reblog that stated that JON as unknown secret bastard DOES NOT HAVE ANY CLAIM. For Jon to have a claim he would have needed to publicly acknowledged and then legitimized by a royal decree. There is no tHen hIs raTionAle mIght nOt aPply tO non-D0rnIsh JoN.

JON DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A CLAIM BECAUSE HE IS RHAEGAR'S SON AND A DECREE TO DISINHEIRT THE TRUEBORN HEIRS DOES NOT SIMULTANEOUSLY GRANT ANYONE ELSE/A UNKNOWN BASTARD CLAIMS.

The royal decree to disinherit Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen and apppointment of Viserys as new heir is alo sure as hell not phrased that "ONLY Rhaegar's line that is part dornish is hereby disinherited" because it would make no sense. The disinheritance is not against Rhaegar's children's dornish heritage, it is about the preventation of Rhaegar's line to ascend the Throne and Visery's ascend (and it being made as secured as legally possible) PERIOD. And most imporantly, why would the decree be written in this specific way (worded to prevent only Rhaegar's DORNISH heirs), when no one thought he even had any other children??? (children with indisputable claims!) That would be a explicitness no one would have ever come to in this scenario.

Even if it WAS, JON AS UNKNOWN NON-ACKNOWLEDGED, NON-LEGITIMIZED BASTARD HAS NO CLAIMS. That is trueborn siblings lost theirs doesn't suddenly grant him ones.

@theblackqveen First, there were instances of Dany telling Drogo "no" or defying Dothraki custom and Drogo allowed her to do so even if he disagreed at first. So he definitely listened to her.

You deliberately continue to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of Daenerys and Drogo's relationships.

Drogo listens to her in some instances because he wanted to. Like when she try to persuade him to do different sex positions or claiming the Lhazareen women for herself. And even in the later instance, Daenerys fears if she had dared to much. In none of these instances Drogo listened to Daenerys because she had the authority to bend him to her will.

And whether her protests worked with Viserys is not important. The important thing is that she at least try to protect her king. But she didn’t. And so others may naturally conclude that she unfairly profited from his death and shouldn't inherit from her.

You are just repeating yourself, bringing up an supposed "argument" that doesn't disinherit Daenerys as Viserys’s heir. AGAIN there could be as many as they want that can "naturally conclude that she unfairly profited from his death and and shouldn't inherit from her". It still doesn't change the law. But given the fact that NO ONE in 6 books have mused anything of this sort, refutes your hypothesis that there will be any to argue (like this).

The only one to speculate in a similar manner about the circumstances of Viserys’s death are Arianne Martell and Daemon Sand;

The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen's own husband." "So I'veheard. What of it?" "Just… why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood." "The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand." Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King's daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know -- " "We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope." - Arianne I, TWoW

And even here, the focus lays only on whenever or not Daenerys might be "her father's daughter". Not a word about Daenerys not being Viserys's heir due to the circumstances around his death is muttered here. And mind you this from a women that envisioned herself as Viserys's queen.

excerpts of @stargareed's response to @theblackqveen post:

GRRM made the rightful claimant issue a clusterfuck of ambiguity so that Stannis/Shireen, Dany, (f)Aegon, and Jon all have colorable claims to the Iron Throne.

i) Robert Baratheon justifys is claim to the Iron Throne through his great grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen (although we all know Robert's won/stole the Iron Throne with his war hammer (x)). Even Stannis, who derives his claim to the Iron Throne from him being Robert's brother, states that Robert IS an usurper.

ii) If we collectively disregard Aerys's decree as you do it, then yes the unquestionable son of Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen would have indeed a better claim than Daenerys. But Young Griff/"Aegon" and his kingmakers know, should they fail to match a marriage between him and Daenerys, he will forever be mocked as a pretender (x). Therefore debating how the claim of the true, indisputable Aegon would still out trump Daenerys, despite there being a royal decree that says otherwise, is redundant because the circumstances demand from this boy to resign himself as only her mere consort, because otherwise no one will believe "Aegon" is who he says he is.

iii) FOR THE 100TH TIME; NO PUBLIC ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND NO LEGITIMIZATION BY OFFICIAL ROYAL DECREE MEANS NO CLAIM FOR SECRET BOI JON.

It’s almost like a law school exam where you can easily argue why multiple characters have the strongest claims. So when someone posts in the Jon tag that Dany has a 100% better claim than Jon, I’m gonna push back (in a civil manner of course). 

You have yet to "easily argue", adress and try to disassembled the laws of inheritance I have quoted from AWoIaF. So how exactly have you "push[ed] back"? You have yet to refute anything.

I agree that Drogo had the ultimate authority in their relationship. And that though Drogo listened to Dany in some things (e.g. allowing Dany to have some control over their sex life or prevent Dothraki warriors from taking certain Lhazareen women), there’s a very good chance Drogo would have killed Viserys despite Dany’s pleas because Viserys threatened Drogo’s unborn son. 

Here you start to contradict yourself. First you say Daenerys should have prevented Viserys’s death (insinuating that she has that kind of power over Drogo to begin with because Drogo indulge a few pleas od her) and now you (finally) admit Drogo would have done as he pleased, regardless of Daenerys's pleas.

Which doesn't matter anyway, because you still insist on trying to pass off your personal opinion on inheritance as the law:

But to the extent Dany wants to inherit from Viserys, she should have at least tried to prevent the death of her supposed king. Instead, she was complicit in his death. After Dany translated Viserys’s words to her husband, the following occurred: [excerpt of Daenerys V, AGoT] So, Dany translates Viserys’s ill-fated words to her husband, knows her husband is about to kill Viserys, puts her arm around Drogo in a sign of approval, and then ignores Viserys’s pleas to intervene on his behalf. 

Firstly, as already said, Daenerys's behavior does not change her position as Viserys's heir, and she did try " to prevent the death of her supposed king.

Secondly, you continue to force your personal interpretation as objective truth; "puts her arm around Drogo in a sign of approval" Daenerys's action to put her arm around Drogo could just as easily be a sign of her seaking his proximity for protection.

I’m not saying Viserys didn’t deserve to die. It’s also understandable that Dany didn’t intervene on Viserys’s behalf considering he just threatened her unborn child. But as understandable as Dany’s actions are, they also could be used against her to prevent her from inheriting from Viserys. 

Again, no one does so other than you (and probably your friends).

Let’s do a hypo: Let’s take Season 8 Dany and Jon, but change it so that instead of being the rightful heir, Jon is just a Targaryen bastard. So, there’s no question that Dany is the rightful queen, while Jon is just her heir (as there are no trueborn folks with Targ blood remaining in this hypothetical). 

I refuse to even adress a hypo in which one of the most nonsensical show is being used as gateway. (One of the many reasons of it being nonsensical is the fact that D&D tried to pass off the secret, dusty dairy entry of an unknown generic maester talking about "annulling" the Crown Prince's lawful, fruitful marriage to his highborn wife and "marrying" Rhaegar Targaryen to bethrothed Lyanna Stark in SECRET, which supposedly makes their secret child the "rightful heir" WITH NO WITNESSES, TWO DECADES AFTER EVERYONE IS DEAD as a lawfully-binded FACT, which everbody will unquestionable believe.) But hey, at least you are consistent in your fuckery, to say s8Jon should be allowed to inherited shit from s8 Daenerys (from a moral stand point)

Now, I’ve caught a lot of grief because, as much as I don’t like Season 8 Jon, I think he was justified in killing Season 8 Dany after she murdered 100,000 people and implied that she’d continue killing, including Jon’s own family. However, though I think S8 Jon was ethically justified in killing Dany, a strong argument could be made that he should not inherit from her because he killed her and would be unfairly profiting from her death.

Again, totally your personal opinion, stop passing yours off as ASoIaF's legislature.

If you agree that S8 Jon shouldn’t inherit from S8 Dany, why should book!Dany inherit from Viserys when there was even less justification for Viserys’s death? The only difference is that Drogo did the actual killing in the books, but it was with Dany’s full blessing. 

The hereditary feudalistic laws of inherintance, espescially if there is one only one "trueborn" close relative left, is not a matter of arguments. If the laws of inheritance allow Tyrion Lannister to murder his father and still remain his heir, than s8!Jon is s8!Daenerys's heir the same way Daenerys is Viserys's heir. The succession of the Starks is currently a matter of arguments because no one know were Jon Snow as legitmimized bastard stands in this line (before or after Brandon and Rickon?), not the Iron Throne's. She is even more so because she did not kill him. Her acting as translater is not of concern, because his fate was sealed the minute he started to threatened a khalessi with steel in the Dothraki's sacred city.

Ultimately, I don’t think Dany being complicit in Viserys’s death is dispositive of Dany’s lack of claim. However, it is one argument that could reasonably be used to invalidate her claim. Just as Jon’s bastardy and (f)Aegon’s identity could be used to invalidate their claims. 

i) AGAIN, it's only YOU to argue like that, ii) AGAIN, Jon's bastardy (explicitly the fact that he was never acknowledged as Rhaegar's bastard and never legitimized by a royal decree as Targaryen) is the fact why he doesn't have any claim to begin with iv) (f)Aegon's dubious identity is the reason why the vast majority of people will doubt that he is who he says he is. These people won't grant him a claim to the Iron Throne for that uncertaintiy. And for those that acknowledge Aerys's decree, (f)Aegon could be indeed Rhaegar and Elia's son, he still won't have a claim in their eyes.

AGAIN, he needs the marriage to Daenerys (possible one to Arianne Martell may sufficient as well) to not be seen as a pretender.

As for the matter of @brideoffires being a "white racist" (ilamo) I share @theblackqveen already summerized my feelings. And the fact that you compare "white dany stans' denial over [her] blatant racism" to fucking 13 year old sex slave child bride stockholm syndrom suffering Dany and her raping, warmongering owner tops every generalizing comments from @brideoffires

@lives4lovesworld @theblackqveen Lmao, when did @brideoffires ever "destroy" me in an arguement? Show me receipts!!!

As for the "receipts", unfortunately tumblr search does show me your discourse with her since you have blocked me, I will not spent further hours on you scrolling through multiple blogs to find these posts (about a matter I frankly do not care)

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #✨vent time✨ #daenerys targaryen #viserys targaryen #jon snow #aerys ii targaryen #rhaegar targaryen #young griff #“aegon vi targaryen” #aegon vi targaryen (son of rhaegar) #arianne martell #daemon sand #this dude has got to be troll

[lives4lovesworld]

Since this was in the Jon tag…The Mad King wasn’t of sound mind when he disinherited Rhaegar’s line. Even if he was, he didn’t know about Jon’s existence, so just as Robb’s Will arguably wouldn’t elevate Jon over Bran (whom Robb thought was dead), the MK’s decision arguably didn’t apply to Jon. Also, Dany allowed her husband to kill Viserys and you can’t inherit from someone you killed. - @stargareed (in the comments)

First of all thank you for proving my point. you were one of these few delightful delusional illiterate jon stans/dany antis I was thinking of when writing my original post;

i) Whenever or not Aerys knew about Jon Snow existence or not (which isn't the argument you think it is), (and as already said) Jon is and remains the unknown bastard of Rhaegar. There is no debate with that fact. Holland Reed and Benjen Stark could come up with some secret "testament" of Rhaegar Targaryen in which he "acknowledges" his son with Lyanna Stark and it would still not make him an acknowledged bastard. Much less a legitimized one that could inherit anything.

Besides acknowledging bastards, they can also be legitimized. This power is reserved to monarchs alone.

-

However, in order to inherit or be installed as an heir, the bastard-born child will first have to be legitimized by a royal decree. - Bastards; Legitimization and Rights of inheritance, A wiki of ice and fire

For Jon to have a claim the iron throne, Rhaegar would have needed to public acknowledge him (make his relation to Lyanna Stark public knowledge as well, and possibly foster him at Dragonstone or in King's Landing or Winterfell) -> then KING AERYS TARGARYEN, SECOND OF HIS NAME would have needed to legitimized him by a royal decree.

So even if Rhaegar had raised him like a trueborn son, he would still not have been legitimized, because Rhaegar was never king.

None of that happened, however, and no vision from Brandon or teary revelation from Benjen or Holland Reed about Rhaegar and Lyanna's tragic love story will compensate for it. And even then it would be unclear whenever or not he would come before a female trueborn daughter.

Moving forward, in which delusional alternative univsere would have Aerys ever legitimized Jon? If he had already made disapproving comments about his first trueborn grandchild, one can only imagine what he would have thought of Jon Snow's existence, or about a hypothetical proposal to legitimize him. Considering that Aerys even talked long before the start of the rebellion to disinherit his 'disloyal son', due to rumors of Rhaegar planning to dethrone him.

Your argument and comparison of Aerys not knowing about Jon’s existence vs. Robb not knowing about Brandon's survival is fallacious and ridiculous; (as said again and again) Jon does NOT automatically have rights unless Aerys explicitly (by legitimizing him by name) says otherwise. And that (AGAIN) only after he had been acknowledged by Rhaegar.

By your logic what purpose does Robb's declare than have (other than disinheriting Sansa Lannister) if a bastard has claims regardless if he legitimized or not?? Why did Jon Snow constantly lament over the fact that (even) as (acknowledged) bastard he has no right to Winterfell?? (x, x, x, x, x, x, x) That even Arya and Sansa came before him.

He legitimized all of his natural children, from the most baseborn to the Great Bastards—the sons and daughters born to him by women of noble birth. Scores of his natural children had never been acknowledged; Aegon's dying declaration meant naught to them. For his acknowledged bastards, however, it meant a great deal. - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon IV, The World of Ice and Fire

If one was to make a comparison, had Aerys been Aegon vi and in his madness and last hours ushered in a royal decree of legitimizing any child Rhaegar could have had, (without any reason to believe his son had any children out of wedlock but let's twist this brezel further for the sake of this ridiculous argument) Jon in this comparison would be one of these "natural children that had never been acknowledged; [...] declaration meant nothing to them" AKA STILL NO CLAIM FOR JON CAUSE NOBODY CAN PROVE HE IS WHO IS SINCE HIS DEAD FATHER NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED HIM PUBLIC.

Argor Rivers, Bryden Rivers, Sierra Seastar, Daemon Blackfyre all were considered potential claimants because they had been acknowledged bastards of highborn Ladies. On the other hand, there is Jeyne Lothson, who was rumored to be a possible bastard but apparently Lord Lucas Lothson had taken her as his own (much like honorable Eddard has taken Jon as his own all their lifes). Yet Jeyne Lothson obvious had no rights, and she was at least rumored to be Aegon's bastard, while no one ever questioned Jon's parentage, and definitely no one ever speculated Rhaegar (of all the people) to be is true father all along.

Stannis Baratheon as last nobleborn man to trace Targaryen blood in his lineage (or some other nobleborn that can prove so as well with his family tree) has more of a claim to the Iron Throne than not-even-rumored bastard Jon Snow.

ii) Aerys being notoriously mad doesn't deminish his validity as king nor his word as you think it does.

[Which, if you would be consistent in your logic and accept that for a bastard to have claims he needs to acknowledged then legitimized which (again) only a king can do, would invalidate a hypothetical known royal declare from Aerys to actually legitimize Jon Snow as well, given that you dismiss Aerys's declare to disinherit Rhaegar's lineage.]

That's not how it works.

Feudalistic ASoIaF is not like our modern word where a jugde or jury or a psychiatrist can declared one of unsound mind and thus removed them from office or take their license or milder the court judgment or undo testaments.

Septon-King Baelor Targaryen had also been anything but well adjusted and had ushered in many nonsensical declares, projects and laws, yet did that make him any less the rightful king or was his word any less the law? No!

iii) "Also, Dany allowed her husband to kill Viserys and you can’t inherit from someone you killed." - @stargareed

Alone for this sentence you have you revealed yourself as a sick, brainharsed, illiterate, lacking basic reading comprehension and common sense, unworthy to even get a resposne in the first place.

a) How often does someone have to explain that sold child bride and glorified sex slave Daenerys Targaryen DID NOT FUCKING "ALLOWED" HER WARMONGERING OWNER/HUSBAND TO MURDER VISERYS FOR BREAKING SACRED DOTHRAKI LAWS.

@rainhadaenerys, @aegontheconquerorwithteats and @brideoffires (an old friend of yours no?) have disassembled such disgusting nonsense a dozen time.

But please, what should have pregant, dainty, 14 year old Daenerys done? Usher a command at Khal Drogo and his warriors to not kill Viserys for breaking sacred Dothraki laws and threatened their prophesied SWMTW and Khal Drogo's son and heir? Physically restrain them? Command slaves Irri, Jhiqui and Doraeh to help her do so? Her blood riders assigned by Khal Drogo as well? Do you think they could have prevented Viserys's death, if they would have even listened to Daenerys? Girls Khal Drogo had enslaved? Doraeh who had been gifted to Daenerys so she might learn how to properly fullfil her duties as sex slave? Enlighten me, how should/could have Daenerys prevented Viserys’s death, once Drogo and his warriors made up his mind?

Daenerys was not even granted this much bodily autonomy that should allow her to prevented her from being gang rape by Khal Drogo's blood riders had he allowed that.

Out of curiosity, by this logic did Sansa "allowed" her betrothal to kill her father as well? Did she lose all claims to Winterfell by that as well? Did Catelyn "allowed" her brother's father-in-law to murder her son? Is Roslin Frey's trueborn child by Edmure Tully not his heir, because the massacre is grandfather's commit known as red wedding?

b) Allowing something to happen like a murder, and actively murdering someone is not the same??! WTF. At most it would make you a complice or failed to render civil courage, if the person had any agency to begin with.

But for the sake of the argument let's argue Daenerys had "allowed" Drogo to kill Viserys. Even go so far and say Daenerys actively "murdered" her brother.

The gold I grant you," the dwarf said, relieved that he was not about to drown in a gout of half-digested eels and sweetmeats, "but the Rock is mine."

"Just so." The magister covered his mouth and belched a mighty belch. "Do you think King Stannis will give it to you? I am told he is a great one for the law. Your brother wears the white cloak, so you are heir by all the laws of Westeros."

"Stannis might well grant me Casterly Rock," said Tyrion, "but for the small matter of regicide and kinslaying. For those he would shorten me by a head, and I am short enough as I stand. - Tyrion I, ADwD

Tyrion, GRRM lil personal self-insert, states in this conversation with Illyiro Mopatis (who agree with him) that even though he has murdered his father Tywin with a crossbow, he still remain his father's lawful heir and heir to Casterly Rock, and muses that Stannis Baratheon, the most law-obsessed man in Westeros, who had maimed even his personal savior Davos for smuggling the food that endured Stannis and his men's own survival, might grant Tyrion his birthright, but admittedly kill him for his patricide and regicide.

So even if Daenerys would have poured the molten gold over Viserys herself, she still would be his heir. She would be condemned as kinslayer (which she isn't) but still be his heir.

Robb’s Will is often lamented as the most disregard royal declare since sansa stans (that make seemingly 80% up of the fandom on all social platforms) refuse to accept that she has been disinherited as it puts an end to all their rIgHtfUl QitN headcanons, but there is one that tops it; King Aerys’s declare to disinherited Rhaegar’s line after his death and appointment of his second son as his heir.

Weiterlesen

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #✨vent time✨ #daenerys targaryen #viserys targaryen #jon snow #benjen stark #holland reed #aegon iv targaryen #the great bastards #aerys ii targaryen #rhaegar targaryen #lyanna targaryen #fuck dany antis

[lives4lovesworld]

Robb's Will is often lamented as the most disregarded royal declare since sansa stans (that make seemingly 80% up of the fandom on all social platforms) refuse to accept that she has been disinherited as it puts an end to all their rIgHtfUl QitN headcanons, but there is one that tops it; King Aerys's declare to disinherited Rhaegar's line after his death and appointment of his second son as his heir.

Why? Simple because even if everbody were to unquestionably believe that Young Griff is the dead believed infant son of Rhaegar Targaryen (which would be a miracle not even his kingmakers bet on without a marriage to Daenerys), he still would not have a "better claim" to the Iron Throne than Daenerys, which is often used as a one-up against her and as "fact" that will drive her insane. Which is of course a BIG no-no to those people.

Same applies to those that lump Jon Snow in their quest to despite Daenerys in proclaiming that he has a better claim than her as well(lol). Somehow, although Young Griff (with his valyrian features and a known friend of Rhaegar as foster father to vouch for) is already struggling to "prove" he is indeed the known, trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the known bastard son of the Lord of Winterfell with the Stark look, who has lived his entire life in the north and has been legitimized by his self-styled king brother will apparently unquestionably believed by many (and that would fight for him and make a difference) to *actually* be the secret love child* between disinherited dead Prince Rhaegar and his also dead mistress/captive Lyanna Stark. Apparently this positions Jon above the known Targaryen princess (now queen and claimant), third and last living child to the last rightful king and declared heir to his appointed heir in the line of succession. (ilmao)

*And no, Rhaegar could have neither taken a second wife as polygamy is forbidden by the faith, nor annulled his marriage to Elia Martell and disinherited their children nor simply legitimized Jon. The first two would have needed the consent of the faith and the crown and the later "only" a King's declare. It's safe to say that none of them would have happened.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #anti young griff stans #anti aegon vi stans #fuck dany antis #✨vent time✨ #rhaegar targaryen #aerys targaryen #daenerys targaryen #jon snow #aegon vi targaryen (son of rhaegar) #young griff

[lives4lovesworld]

okay since @rainhadaenerys and @aegontheconquerorwithteats tags show me how misleading my post can come across;

My issue being is not that Young Griff is a 'bad person' or even remotely like Joffrey, and that everbody should see this too. My issue is that he is ALLOWED to be spoiled, sheltered and arrogant, unlike Dany.

He is ALLOWED to stress his claim (x), unlike Dany who becomes the most entitled bitch in the eyes of the fandom for the same thing. He is ALLOWED to have a claim in the first place(!), despite his more than dubious heritage. Unlike Dany, whose claim is constantly denied because some nonsense how she is Aerys's daughter and the targaryens have lost their claim and whatever by the same people who insist "Aegon VI" has the best claim.

Young Griff, despite having accomplished or proven nothing so far and only a handful of sellswords at his disposal, gets theorized to conquer Westeros, secure mighty alliances, be welcomed by the people. Unlike Daenerys, despite having proved herself throughout the entire series to be a competent conqueror with a gigantic host of diverse subgroups, AND DRAGONS, is speculated to fail spectacular at doing the same. Unlike Young Griff, her kinship to Aerys (and Rhaegar) will get her rejected.

Young Griff is ALLOWED to throw tantrums, unlike Dany. She can let the boy who spits on her gets away unscattered and excelles at playing the idiot as Kraznys mo Nakloz insults her throughout their enitre acquaintance, and still be (deliberately) mischaracterized as 'too violent' and temperamental.

Young Griff's entire campaign can be orchestrated by his "advisors" (they make his battle plans, pay his forces, reach out to others for potential alliances) and he will still be theorized to become Robb 2.0: a battle strategist prodigy. Daenerys can prove to be one as well, amasse her forces and wealth from stretch and she will still gets discredited at every turn. Every accomplishment of hers are actually her advisors', the circumstances are just too convenient, her enemies are just "too (cartoonsishly) stupid", her dragons serve her as Dues Ex Machina. While simountanastly every horrible thing happening in Essos is somehow her fault, not the slavers to actually commit the betrayals and atrocities, not nature to have the dragons behave like dragons, not Quentyn for getting himself killed in his folly of a plan.

Barristan and Quentyn Martell, good men who feared Dany could have been her "father's daughter" (x,x) (which still didn't stopped them from actively pursuing her and planning to seat her on the throne, mind you) can say multiple times she is a good queen (x, x), kind  competent (x, x) , and this can all be dismissed. But Varys, the man notorious for lying, for being known as the catalyst for “the rot in King Aerys's (TARGARYEN, Young Griff's supposed grandfather) reign” , and walking over thousand of corpses, (including Eddard Stark!) if it gets him closes to his goals, who is likely Young Griff's kin, can have one monolog in which he pretends to care about the realm's wellbeing and has Young Griff presented as the perfect Ruler with a tragic past (which we know isn't true) and this will be taken at face.

Young Griff is ALLOWED to have Tyrion (GRRM's lil self-insert) 'think of Joffrey' and still is theorized to become the "people's king", while his iconic monolog of Daenerys is either dismissed or "theorized" to be subverted. Imagine GRRM would have ever had Tyrion remotely link Daenerys to Joffrey. We would never hear the end it it.

antis really saw Young Griff and made him their avatar and disposable narrative tool in their delusional fight against Daenerys. The amount of cocky fanon clownery:

yOung GriFf is g0nna bE unIverSaLly seEn as aegon vi! hE wiLl coNquer tHis anD thAt! MarRy x! haVe y, z, k supP0rt! bE beLoVed tHat! s0lVe weSterOs' hunGer crIsis! bE jAehAEryS + aEGon CoMe aGain! daNy wIll reaCt eXaCtly liKe thE jeaLous meGalomAnIac nutcAse I aLwaY waNted Her t0 bE, wHen sHe seEs hOw tRiUmpHaNt he Is!

People legitimately canonize their own plots and HCs ft. him, thick enough to fill out TWoW and ADoS, and have the audacity to expect others to do the same.

Tyrion can literally name him a green boy, compare him to fucking Joffrey, be used as camera characters to show us how spoiled and sheltered (x) and arrogant (x) he is, and Varys's tale will still be taken at face value. A notorious liar, who dgaf about realm and has set multiple wars into actions, suddenly becomes an advocate for the people for their HC of Young Griff as the perfect Ruler only to despite Daenerys, cause that would be so sUbvErsIve.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #young griff #aegon vi taragyren (son of elia martell) #daenerys targaryen #joffrey baratehon mentioned #selmy barristan mentioned #quentyn martell mentioned #varys of lys mentioned #tyrion lannister mentioned #anti aegon vi stans #anti young griff #anti bnfs

[lives4lovesworld]

antis really saw Young Griff and made him their avatar and disposable narrative tool in their delusional fight against Daenerys. The amount of cocky fanon clownery:

yOung GriFf is g0nna bE unIverSaLly seEn as aegon vi! hE wiLl coNquer tHis anD thAt! MarRy x! haVe y, z, k supP0rt! bE beLoVed tHat! s0lVe weSterOs' hunGer crIsis! bE jAehAEryS + aEGon CoMe aGain! daNy wIll reaCt eXaCtly liKe thE jeaLous meGalomAnIac nutcAse I aLwaY waNted Her t0 bE, wHen sHe seEs hOw tRiUmpHaNt he Is!

People legitimately canonize their own plots and HCs ft. him, thick enough to fill out TWoW and ADoS, and have the audacity to expect others to do the same.

Tyrion can literally name him a green boy, compare him to fucking Joffrey, be used as camera characters to show us how spoiled and sheltered (x) and arrogant (x) he is, and Varys's tale will still be taken at face value. A notorious liar, who dgaf about realm and has set multiple wars into actions, suddenly becomes an advocate for the people for their HC of Young Griff as the perfect Ruler only to despite Daenerys, cause that would be so sUbvErsIve.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #fandom wank #✨vent time✨ #young griff #anti aegon vi stans #anti young griff stans #daenerys targaryen mentioned

[lives4lovesworld]

How Dany's inability to recall Hazzea name and her reaction to Viserys’s death are shamelessly twisted for a narrative of her as a heartless monster, another "seed" to her descend into madness by others, and how it's incredibly hypocritical of them:

Firstly, it should be empathized that most characters/rulers do NOT even bother to care about any common born casualties in the first place, let alone learn their names and remember them over a large period of time as Daenerys (and Arya) do. So, even IF her name will one day truly fade from Daenerys's memory, i) it still makes her a morally better person and ruler than everbody else ii) it (/memory loss) will never be an indication of a descend into madness.

Such a " critique" is especially hypocritical coming from Sansa and Baratheon stans to do so, given that Sansa Stark herself couldn't even show remorse or sorrow for her sister's friend and innocent child, let alone learn his name. In fact she tried to spin a narrative where his brutal, unnecessary murder was justified and simultaneously gashlighted her devasted sister. Only one time, after her rose colored glasses were ripped off did she even mentioned Mycah's fate to the Tyrells, referring to him only as "butcher's boy" yet again. Otherwise he remains utterly absent in her head space. And given that both Stannis Baratheon and Robert Baratheon’s small council argue for killing innocent children if it’s profitable for them (x, x, x, x ,x, x, x, x, x, x, x, x, x). Common born casualties in wars are simply of no concern for most characters on a personal level.

While Daenerys is condemn for her lack of visible devastation at witnessing her abusive brother being killed after threatening her, Sansa's first action concerning Jory's murder, a leal man of her father, she had known her entire life, can be emphasizing Joffrey's lack of blame for this innocent man's brutal, unnecessary murder. With her second action being feeling proud that a more handsome man is filling out Jory's place, as well as witnessing Clegane killing a youth in tournament, and yet feel nothing nor cry and forget about his name as soon as she heard it without being used as "proof" for her mental decline.

A person not in need of twisting the narrative to unfairly condemn one to prop up another, would see that Daenerys and Sansa's respective reasoning behind their lack of tears in these two incidents are even similar: Both girls were emotionally utterly spent after their recent traumatic events (x, x). Yet, if extreme depravity, a miscarriage and the constant danger of hostile strangers and wild predators in the open, after the ordeal in the fighting pit are not sufficient as explanation for Daenerys's currently emotionally spent state and lack of tears for a girl Drogon killed than neither is Lady's death and Bran's fall for Sansa's utterly lack of reaction when witnessing a man dieing for the first time.

And, unlike Dany, Sansa was enjoying a tournament held in honor for her betrothed as a daughter of the King's Hand surrounded by her family's household in the pompous capital city. Unlike Sansa, Dany never actually witnessed with her own eyes the death.

It's maddening how there has been spun a narrative in which Daenerys is somehow responsible for Hazzea's death (some saying the same for Quentyn Martell's death) or doesn't care about her fate by sansa stans to villainize her. When that's just deliberately twisting the actual text and considering that their own fav is currently poisoning Robert Arryn, an innocent child and HER COUSIN (her last relative for what she knows) for her political ambitions. For which the most demeaning excuses are being conjuncted (such as Sansa simply being too stupid and "naive" to understand the danger of overdosing a child, despite Maester Colemon explain it), yet Daenerys gets vilified for lack of tears due to shock of seeing her abusive brother get murdered after he had threatened her unborn child.

sansa stans should truly be the last ones to prester anyone with their respective character's "lack of empathy" and bad memory nor proclaim a character is a "unreliable POV", especially when sansa has been be singled out BY THE AUTHOR to actually be one. (x, x) Same goes for Baratheon stans when it comes to other character's dismissal of innocent lifes and a mental decline linked to telling oneself everything is justified for the "Great Good".  

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #daenerys targaryen #stannis baratheon #sansa #arya stark mentioned #✨vent time✨ #anti sansa stans #anti stansas #anti stannis baratheon #anti stannis baratheon stans

[lives4lovesworld]

It's enough for people to obsessively hate Rhaegar Targaryen for being one of many to speculated about the prophecy of Azor Ahai Reborn and wholeheartedly proclaim that Rhaegar was mad (as bad as Aerys) and has abducted and used Lyanna as incubator because of his "obsession" with said prophecy.

Despite both ideas not being backed up by the source material; i) Rhaegar is remembered fondly, capable and worthy (x, x, x, x, x, x, x) and "would have been a fine[r] king". ii) Rhaegar's "abduction" of Lyanna was even in-verse known to be motivated by (romantic) love, not because he believed her to be a part of the prophecy. (x, x, x, x) iii) Rhaegar believed the prophecy has already been fulfilled in his son with Elia Martell (x, x,)

Besides this, Rhaegar even had valid reasons (at least more than Stannis Baratheon ever had) to believe he could indeed be Azor Ahai; he was born amidst salt and smoke, it was prophesied that Azor Ahai Reborn will come forth from Aerys II and Rhaella's line (and for the longest time he seemed to be their only child to reach adulthood) he was the trueborn, rightful Lord of Dragonstone, "the place of salt and smoke" and dragons.

What takes the cake however, is their unironically projection of a character's flaw onto another, one that is designed to serve as a foil* and their refusal to apply the same moral belief system to all characters; they do not condemn Stannis Baratheon for his obsession with him as Azor Ahai Reborn and will use Jon Snow's parentage as proof that he is indeed Azor Ahai, using and validating the very same thought process they accuse Rhaegar of and condemn him for.

(*Stannis is a foil to Daenerys, and thus indirectly to Rhaegar, since Dany is constantly compared to him)

So while Stannis Baratheon can want to burn his child nephew, actually burn his uncle-in-law, consider burning newborn babes (x, x, x), loyal men (x, x, x) and will apparently burn his own daughter all for the sake of 'his duty' (x, x, x, x,) they will still proclaimed him as TKwC, The Best Man to Rule, while condemn Rhaegar and Daenerys Targaryen, mostly for sins they did not commit, but Stannis did; burning people and commit(/consider) atrocities with the excuse of being "The Chosen One" and it all being for "The Greater Good".

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #✨fandom wank✨ #top clown behavior #rhaegar targaryen #stannis baratheon #lyanna stark #anti rhaegar hate #anti rxl haters #anti stannis baratheon #antis stannis stans #daenerys targaryen mentioned