problematic-butnothateful

problematic-butnothateful

it's just fiction

20+ years old, nonbinary, ex-anti now proshipper, can't believe people really think fiction and real life is the same thing

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problematic-butnothateful·14 hours agoAnswer

According to the survey's definition, I should be a pro-shipper (ship-and-let-ship-and-tag-properly is my motto) but I prefer to call myself neutral. Antis give me grief about my OTPs but pro-shippers give me grief about my NOTPs and about how I don't multiship and how if I dislike a controversial ship, no matter my reasons, I am an anti who is surely harassing people with a throwaway tumblr account.

first of all, i want to say you’re welcome to consider yourself any way you want. if your views align with one side but you don’t want to call yourself part of it, or if you prefer to keep yourself out of discourse, then that’s your choice and there’s nothing wrong with that. you do what you do

i also want to apologize about whatever shit you’ve been given by proshippers. unfortunately there are that kind of people who act that way and are dicks towards those who don’t ship certain things, and my opinion on them is: they may not be antis, but they come from the same mold. antis justify their ship wars by saying “if you ship this you’re problematic”, and then you got people who justify their pseudo ship war by saying “if you don’t ship this you’re an anti”. they’re all assholes but with different packaging, and seeing the latter calling themsleves “proship” is laughable when they act as anti as anti themselves

there’s plenty of proshippers who don’t ship all controversial ships ever. either cause there’s subjects that trigger them, or because they’re squicked by something, or because they just aren’t into the ship. being proship is, ideally, “ship and let ship”, and those people who bothered you about not shipping something are as far from that as it gets. i’m sorry you had to deal with them

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problematic-butnothateful·21 hours agoText

pro-ship-kokichi:

plagabrudas:

cursedcupcakeconnoisseur:

pro-ship-kokichi:

cursedcupcakeconnoisseur:

pro-ship-kokichi:

you’re not being fucking harmed by someone using a label you don’t like, jesus fucking christ

Homophobia, biphobia, and transphobia aren’t just Things We Don’t Like, Karen.

i cant tell if this is @ me or if it’s @ the person in the screenshot, could you clarify please?

u

The fuck does bi lesbian even mean?

@/bi-lesbian has a great explanation and history of the term!

as a bisexual, i would like all bi lesbians to have a great day

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raptorific:

raptorific:

raptorific:

raptorific:

Whenever I see people discoursing online about how all fiction must model good behavior and explicitly state that any bad behavior depicted is wrong, lest someone in the audience mistake it for “glorifying,” all I can think of is that line from Arrested Development where Buster, in his mid-30s, objects to something by saying “that’s not the way mother is raising me”

Like yeah maybe YA books and kids’ cartoons have a responsibility to demonstrate the difference between Right and Wrong, since the audience is, like, actual children, but if you’re consuming literally anything more advanced than Disney XD’s Ducktales, you should absolutely be expected to bring your own moral framework from home and not need your media to spoon-feed morality to you

if you see a show about a a man manufacturing and selling methamphetamine while abusing his wife and murdering people and you can’t tell whether the author intends for you to think his actions are right or wrong? That might be more your problem than the text’s. You might just, at that point, be an idiot.

[banging on the notes of this post with a broomstick from below] yo shut the fuck up in there

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problematic-butnothateful·a day agoAnswer

I have a fandom blog that's small, but popular enough for the (slightly) niche corner of the fandom I'm in. I just made a rant post that kind of implies I'm pro ship (though I didn't explicitly state anything). I hate how vocal and rabid antis are in this fandom because even though it's just a small implication of being pro-ship, I'm already really nervous about being witchhunted already. I really like this little community I've become a part of (I haven't been this active with other members of a fandom in a long time), and I don't want to lose it. I get nervous enough when it's barely even disagreeing with someone's interpretation with a character- I don't really want conflict over this. At the same time, I get frustrated and want to make my views clear. I don't know...

i’m sorry that antis are stressing you out like this, no one should have to be targeted because of their opinions on fiction, i hope you don’t get attacked by anyone. i get that anxiety. all i can tell you is to try and follow more blogs that are proship or at least not antis, and if you build your community around those people it will be much less likely for you to be attacked, especially if there’s people who will come to your defense. if someone does try something, just block them, you don’t need that kind of negativity in your life. best of luck anon

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bi-lesbian:

reminder that terfs misusing a term doesnt mean they coined it or in any way own it.

when they are not identifying as it themselves, and are taking a label they hate to try to force onto other people they hate to invalidate them, that doesnt mean they own that term now.

stop letting them take things from your fellow queers and run them through the mud so theyll get what they want: people to stop using these labels.

bi lesbian was not coined by terfs and has never been their term. stop spreading misinformation and just actually look into the history of bi lesbianism for once please.

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i’m not “cool” but i don’t harass people over fictional characters and ships and i think that’s pretty fucking sexy of me

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problematic-butnothateful·2 days agoAnswer

I don't see any images on the survey posts, is there something wrong with the post or my computer?

there shouldn’t be any images, no, why?

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problematic-butnothateful·2 days agoAnswer

I think that, incidentally, your survey just proves that proshippers think antis' views come from the USA. If only we had more antis responding to the origins of their views that would be great. This seems like the most major skew in the survey data. Though was your intended audience proshippers? I think if the intended audience was antis, there would be a clearer understanding because it came directly from them.

i was hoping to get answers from antis as well, but only a handful of them ended up give responses and it was not nearly enough to make any sort of conclusion. maybe it’s because most people who reblogged were proshippers, which wouldn’t really have much of an anti audience, but i also really didn’t know how to reach the anti side of the discourse more. it is a problem with the data, i’m aware of that

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problematic-butnothateful·2 days agoPhoto

pro-ship-kokichi:

androgynousblackbox:

The “Goyim shut the fuck up about why it’s okay to harass Hetalia blogs challenge” has FAILED.

—–

I am still flying about calling themselves “white coded” like… you are a human being, not a character. You cannot be coded like a character because you are a tangential being that exist in reality and is able to have a voice, unlike a character.  Did they meant “white passing”? Jesus Christ, I am begging you, spend some time away from fucking fandom discourse. It’s not doing you any good if you don’t realize no PERSON is coded, they just are.

Also what the fuck did The Witcher did???

wh. what’s wrong with small text?????????

what the fuck is wrong with the witcher now I’d never seen that in a dni before

problematic-butnothateful
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pro-ship-kokichi:

cursed–alien:

just-antithings:

why’d you have to bring kicking dogs into this what’s your problem

Fiction matters, but it doesn’t affect reality in a 1:1 correlation. People are smarter than that.

there is also a MASSIVE difference between mainstream media, which gets millions and millions of consumers, and fandom stuff, which will get maybe 500k

I can’t believe people don’t see the difference between “marginalized people deserve to see themselves as heroes and positive characters and just see themselves in general” and “hurting fictional characters is not comparable to hurting real people”

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first of all, sorry for the delay! i had a lot of things going on lately. also this post would have been out a couple days ago if only excel hadn’t fucking bailed on me midway through writing it. this post will cover north american results. i suggest reading the previous post to understand things better. there’s a lot of numbers in this post, but i’ve also put a tl;dr at the end that simply highlights some of the relevant results.

[part 1: global results]

a total of 335 respondents were from north america. of these, 89,6% were from the united states, 8,1% were from canada, 1.5% from mexico. 1 result was from puerto rico, 1 from uruguay (i assume the respondent was mistaken in selecting the continent) and 1 from georgia (which i assume was due to confusion between the state of georgia and the country of georgia). overall, we can assume the answers left by north american respondents are mostly reflective of us views. canadian responses are somewhat influential, but the sample was too small to deserve a discussion of its own

out of the various respondents, 89.6% self identified as proshippers, 9.9% as neutral on fandom discourse, and 2 people considered themselves antis. of these people, 58.2% said they never held anti beliefs, and 40.9% said they did in the past. 3 people said they are antis now - more than in the previous question, but as i explained in my last post, the question for whether or not one held anti beliefs in the past had a further explanation on what is defined anti, and one person who previously stated they were neutral felt that the definition i provided more closely aligned to their opinion. on the other hand, 1.8% of people said they never had proshipper beliefs, 5.1% said they did, but in the past, with the remaining 93.1% saying they are proshippers now

of the respondents, 51.9% said they feel the anti movement has usamerican-centric points of view (slightly less than the global average, 57.4%), while 3% instead stated they don’t think it’s american-centric (also a little less than the global average, 4.5%, but by a smaller margin). 45.1% said they don’t know how to answer, which is understandable as i’d imagine it’s harder for an american person to judge whether something is american centric or not. when it came to saying which movement is more friendly to non-usa people, 65.1% said the proshipper movement, 2.1% said the anti movement, 7.5% found the movement roughly equal in this aspect, and the remaining 25.4% said they didn’t know

when asked if the anti movement tends to exclude the points of view of non-usamerican people, 78.8% said yes, 3% said no, and the remaining 18.2% said they didn’t know. the same question asked regarding the proshipper movement had 39.4% of people saying it’s not exclusive to non-usamerican, 18.2% saying it is, and 42.4% saying they didn’t know

64.5% of people said they felt other people from their country could be either proshippers or antis, 23.3% said they are more likely to be antis, 5.1% said they are more likely to be proshippers, and 7.2% said they never saw anyone from their country involved in discourse. of the 102 people who answered questions regarding non-english fandom, 95% of people said antis are less common in non-english fandom, 4% said they are roughly equal to english fandom, and 1% said they are more common. 79.4% said instead proshippers are more common, 15.5% said they are equal to english fandom, and 5.2% said they are less common. lastly, 81.7% of people said discourse is generally speaking less common in non-english spaces, 2.2% said it’s more common, and 16.1% said it’s about equal

now, i had a curiosity: are the points of view of american people who do not entirely identify with usamerican culture (whether they are immigrants, grew up with different values, or something else) different from those who do? for the purposes of this, i had two questions, one asking whether people felt their values align with their country or are influenced strongly by one they lived in previously, and one asking whether people felt the values they grew up with aligned with those that are typical for their country

for the first of the two questions, i considered respondents who stated their values align either mainly with that of their previous country, and also those who said their values are a mix between countries. the total count is 22 - so more a curiosity than a statistically significant number. i should also mention this number includes a few canadian responses, and not only usamerican ones. 90% of them are proshipper, and 2 are neutral on discourse. 68% never had anti beliefs, 12% used to in the past (significantly lower than the north american average, 12% vs 40.9%). of the people who are neutral on discourse, 1 used to have proshipper beliefs in the past, and 1 never did

only 1 person said they felt the anti movement is not usacentric, 40% said they had no idea, and 50% said the anti movement is usacentric. 63% found the proshipper movement the more friendly one towards non-usamericans, 9% said the proshipper and anti movement are equal in that aspect, 1 person found the anti movement the more friendly one, and the remaining 22% didn’t know. 76% found that the anti movement tends to exclude non-usacentric beliefs, 10% said it doesn’t exclude them, and 14% said they don’t know. 33% said the proshipper movement excludes beliefs of non-usamericans, 38% said it doesn’t, and 29% said they don’t know. this last question is the only one with data that differs strongly from the north american average: 33% of people saying the proshipper movement tends to exclude people with non-usamerican points of view vs the 18.2% of the north american average

considering instead data from people who, for whatever reason, feel they were raised with different values than what is average for their country, and feel that this reflects strongly in their own values, we have a total of 48 people. again, more a curiosity than anything statistically relevant. 83% of these people are proshippers, 17% are neutral on discourse. 51% of them never held anti beliefs, 47% used to in the past, and 1 person who previously identified as neutral now identified as an anti. 1 person also never held proshipper beliefs, 11% did in the past, and 87% considers themselves proshippers now

68% of people said they felt the anti movement is usacentric (higher than both the north american and global average), 28% said they didn’t know, and only 2 people said they felt it’s not usacentric. 68% also considered the proshipper movement the more friendly to non-usacentric beliefs, 21% said they don’t know, and 11% said the proshipper and anti movement are equal in that aspect. 85% of people said the anti movement excludes non-usa beliefs (much higher than the north american average), 6% said they don’t know, and 9% said it doesn’t exclude them. lastly, 51% said the proshipper movement doesn’t exclude non-usamerican beliefs (much higher than the north american average), 23% said it does exclude them (also slightly higher than the north american average), and 26% said they didn’t know

tl;dr: the north american data, which is mainly influenced by usa respondents, with a minor number of canadians, and a statistically non-significant amount of answers from mexico and puerto rico, overall aligns with the global data, exposed in the previous post, which variations that are usually in the order of 1-2%. the only number i noted to be different is to the question on whether or not the anti movement is america centric, where 51.4% of north americans said yes, it is usamerican centric, compared to a global average of 57.4%. north americans who instead said it is not usamerican centric were 3%, compared to a global average of 4.5%

out of people who used to live in another country and feel their views are influenced by their previous country (a total of only 22 people, which is not really statistically significant but was presented for completeness), most answered in ways that align with the north american average. however, only 12% had at any point held anti beliefs, compared to a north american average of 40.9%. also, more of them felt the proshipper movement is exclusionary towards non-usamerican people, 33% compared to the 18.2% of north american average

we have more differences considering the people who, for any reason, felt their values do not align with that of their country (48 people, still a small sample). they are slightly more likely to have held anti beliefs in the past, 47% compared to the average of 40.9%. 68% said they think the anti movement is usamerican centric, a much higher percentage than what is average. higher than average is also the number of people who feel the anti movement excludes non-usamerican beliefs, a total of 85%. lastly, the number of people who believes the proshipper movement is inclusive towards those beliefs is also higher than average (51% vs 39.4%), but so is the number of people who believe that it is exclusionary (23% vs 18%)

the next post will cover european responses, and hopefully south american, asian, and australian ones, the last three of which received too little respondents to really make conclusions on their own

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problematic-butnothateful·8 days agoAnswer

People on the internet shouldn't be allowed to use the word 'fetish', or any variation thereof, until they learn how to use it properly

people shouldn’t be on the internet until they’ve learned how to use it properly

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problematic-butnothateful·9 days agoAnswer

Hey Liz, I'm not going to be a "stereotypical" anti and going to attack you or anything like, I'm actually new and sorta confused by the whole thing All I want to know, with MAPs running around and how there a damning stereotype about how gay people are serectly pedos Would it be best NOT help push that narrative and muddy the waters with all this porn of underage characters, fictional or otherwise?

Hi! Thanks for reaching out.

I don’t think we pro-shippers are muddying the waters tbh. There IS and SHOULD BE a separation of reality and fiction.

There is a huge difference between MAPS/pedophiles and people who like fictional characters.

Pedophiles are attracted to real life children.

Someone being attracted to anime teen from Jojo is NOT a pedophile. But people are being called pedophiles over drawing fanart of these characters. That’s not okay.

If anything, anti-shippers/fandom police are the ones muddying the waters here. I shouldn’t have to see a call out post about a pedophile and wonder “is this person really a pedo talking to real life minors, or did they rt anime fanart?” but I do now, because most “call outs” I see are about fanart. Fandom police are the ones insinuating that gay people are pedos by calling lgbt+ shippers “pedophiles” for ships. That’s not helping anything. Homophobes who already think we’re pedophiles won’t care if we have a “healthy” anime ship or not lol.

If you (the general you) want to stop muddying the waters, we need to stop equating pedophilia to fanart/fic of fictional characters because there IS a difference.

Again, pedophiles are attracted to real life prepubescent children. No therapist/doctor/mental health professional would say “ahh yes, you’re a pedo” to someone who is only attracted to anime teens and is NOT attracted to real minors.

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problematic-butnothateful·10 days agoText

scared-pro-shipper:

Damn Im really tired of people who’s dni says shit like “no pedos/abuse apologists/supporters” cuz then Im like, cool Im none of those things, and interact. Next thing I know my sideblog is blocked and they’re vague posting “wow… cant believe i have to even say this…. but if you’re ”“”“anti-anti”“”“ or ”“"pro-ship”“” or whatever you freaks call urselves… dni…“

Like uh, yeah if you don’t want pro-ship people interacting, you DO have to say that??? They don’t fall under "pedos/zoophiles/etc” so why the fuck would they assume you don’t want them to interact? Legit saw someone ask if they don’t want pro-shippers following them on Twitter, and the OP was just like “umm, im pretty sure you can connect the dots, its not that hard.” Bitch!

People will swear up and down they don’t hate autistic people, but the second someone can’t read between the lines and asks for clarification, they’re like “oh hell yes someone to publicly mock for being an idiot! Ableist?? No what are u talking about, all im saying is that ppl who take words at face value and need clarification are stupid and annoying.”

Anyways if you dont want pro-shippers interacting and you have a dni in your bio. Fucking. Add them. I PROMISE you won’t die if you write “anti-anti/pro-ship” instead of “assholes/freaks/etc” I PROMISE. Damn.

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problematic-butnothateful·10 days agoText

alexseanchai:

thing:

hello tumblr blogger. in this anonymous ask i will showcase how by reading your blog posts, i have an innate understanding of yourself, your friends, your relationship, and your emotional state. i have come to the conclusion that you’re horrible. respond to this ask in 3 to 10 minutes or i will be accusing you of avoidance of consequences posthaste. good day

total time they spent reading those blog posts to reach that understanding and that conclusion: also 3 to 10 minutes

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problematic-butnothateful·10 days agoText

ratliker1917:

ratliker1917:

I feel a lot of people have moral systems that are completely detached from centering avoiding real harm to real people and are mostly based on completely arbitrary obsessions with symbolic and abstract “wrongs” and gut feelings, and then they join progressive politics and make an absolute fucking mess out of everything with their weird little moralist obsessions that actually don’t help improve anybody’s life or serve any purpose besides making a few people feel morally superior. This is why for example anti-kink politics went from having a pretense of being about protecting vulnerable women from abusive men to just being very blatantly “if you have ever done kink at all you’re ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew”.

I think if you cannot describe the mechanism through which an action brings harm to real people then you probably don’t have an actual argument as to why you consider the action in question to be immoral, and even if you can, you might find some people don’t agree with your definition of harm or find the evidence for the existence of this harm mechanism to be lacking. Secular morality is a lot more complex than a lot of angry social media users might want you to believe it is.

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problematic-butnothateful·12 days agoAnswer

I'm really curious about the second part of your survey analysis. When is it coming out :D

hi! i apologize for the delay, i’m working on it but i’ve had quite a bit of things coming up irl lately and i had to put the survey in the backburner for the moment, i hope in the next days i’ll manage to put the next part out

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problematic-butnothateful·13 days agoText

censorship-isnt-woke:

I’ve lost track of the amount of blogs I’ve followed as a fan of color to be in dialogue with other fans of color about racism in fandom but then they either get radicalized into anti thought by the loudest voices talking about the discourse or they’re just unabashedly anti from the start. I don’t even have to name URLs, this is a Thing that I know people are aware of, and there’s got to be a way to stop it. talking about racism in fandom is important! but a lot of white fans give blatant anti rhetoric a pass because it uses antiracist buzzwords the same way others use pro-queer buzzwords, and those who do say something get accused of being racist for just not listening to POC when they’re not arguing about the racism just about the behavior exhibited by a specific blogger/their anti talking points.

censorship-isnt-woke:

there are so many blogs that start out being about Fighting Racism in some way but also act as a backdoor/path to anti radicalization.

censorship-isnt-woke:

There’s got to be a way to talk about racism in fandom without antis being the loudest voices discussing it.

this is a Thing, it’s stupidly common and extremely insidious, and it’s got to stop.

I want to stop this, or create a conversation around it? honestly I’m open to discussion from all proshippers but I’d like to chat with other POC primarily, hit me up if you’ve got ideas

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problematic-butnothateful·13 days agoText

justmeandmythoughtson:

lordhellebore:

snapeling:

lordhellebore:

snapeling:

yourshipisfine:

If people don’t like how fanfiction.net or Archive of our Own or Wattpad or any other fanfic archives allows stories they consider to be problematic for some reason, they can always create their own fandom spaces.

There is nothing stopping you from creating a forum.

Or creating a community on DreamWidth.

Then you can moderate that fanspace how you see fit!

You can ban pairings or certain types of content!

That’s what the people of AO3 did. They didn’t like how other fandom spaces were handling things and didn’t like their rules. So they made their own fandom space.

You can do the same.

There were plenty of fic archives hosted by random people in Ye Olden Days of the Internet. Learn how they did it, and create your own fandom space with your own rules.

Goes for most content. BUT I am still advocating to ban child phonography legally.

Child pornography is illegal. It’s also forbidden on AO3 - because it’s illegal.

image

Or was it something else that you meant? Something that’s not, actually, child porn where real children are being hurt?

images of real children- they allow written works

Yes, they allow written works because those are not classified as CP where the servers are hosted. So, that’s not going to happen.

#and frankly people who fantasise about raping children should not have a platform #they should be in jail #and only in jail

I understand your disgust - I feel it as well. But the thing is:

1) How do you know authors who write about this subject ‘fantasise about raping children’? How do you know this is their reason for writing?

2) Thought crimes aren’t a thing in societies that aren’t authoritatian dystopias.

While disgust is a very common (and HELLA understandable/relatable) reaction to the concept of CP (more appropriately acronymed CSEM), the disgust reaction isn’t actually why it’s illegal. If you used disgust only as a metric, then anyone disgusted by the concept of same-sex relationships, immigration, or literally any topic possible - well, they’d have a reason to MAKE those things illegal.

So we can’t use disgust as a metric for legality. Therefore, (in the US, where ao3 servers are hosted) we mostly use “harm done.” In the case of CSEM, a living child MUST be harmed to produce it. Therefore, it is illegal, because it directly causes the abuse of a child.

Drawn or written NSF/W content of minors, on the other hand, does NOT have this immediate harm factor, and thus is not classified as CP/CSEM. The people involved aren’t real. Sure, it can evoke disgust! In fact, I’d stay that it does evoke that response from most people. But that’s not enough of a reason to criminalize something. And in the case of the argument above: It’s probably correct to assume that most people DO have a disgust reaction to this kind of content. I myself have a lot of words related to underage nsf/w art and fic blacklisted because it disgusts and squicks me out. BUT I cannot automatically tell why someone else may not be disgusted by that content. I don’t know the innermost thoughts of another person, and they could like that kind of content for any reason. Perhaps they’re fascinated by reading it because of past trauma. Or perhaps the dark nature of this sort of thing (like the entirety of the horror genre) appeals to their sense of visceral fear.

Point is, drawn and written content (NOT cp) is allowable in the US (and therefore ao3) because A) nobody was harmed in the creation of that content and B) There’s no foolproof way to tell why someone is reading or writing it. Maybe it’s for shock value, maybe it’s because the author is writing about kids their own age (in which case. Please be safe, don’t tell people personal info, and don’t interact with anyone who makes you uncomfortable or seems to want to get too close) or maybe it’s to vent about and recontexualise something awful that happened to them.

And in any case - the point that OP was making still stands. If you want to host a space where content that disgusts you is not allowed: PLEASE do so! It will make you much happier, and will keep your squicks out of sight. And it will let the people who worked so hard to build ao3 as it currently is continue to enjoy the results of their hard work.

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