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saessenach · 1 day

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A previous post of mine re Jon's resurrection has been doing the rounds lately so I think I need to clarify a few things (because some people seemed to misunderstand what I was saying - thought tbh I'm a bit surprised).

I was not - and have never - made the argument that Jon is going to walk away from his assassination (whether he actually dies or is just severely wounded) - with no ramifications. Obviously there are going to be many mental and physical changes. For one, he's basically become a human pin-cushion. And given that his heart will probably stop, we might see other things like his fingers and toes turning black. There's also a popular theory that he might lose an eye (to complete the Odin symbolism/parallel). Then we remember that he has been betrayed by his subordinates which is obviously going to cause severe trauma. Anger, hurt, and maybe even resignation will be emotions that he has to grapple with. And let us remember that Jon spent five books (but most of all ADWD) ignoring the magic within and around him. So that's even more trauma because he now has to come to terms with the magical changes within him. It's a lot to deal with. His chapters are going to be depressing af. I think most of us, and most of us Jon fans, can agree on this.

But here's the problem: recent fandom discussion re Jon's death has been very narrow and one sided. To certain communities, he has to turn evil or villainous. This view is actually what led me to making that post. Because there has been an uptick in bad faith arguments brought on by people saying "well my fave is held to an impossible standard so I have to make straw man arguments for why we should willfully misinterpret Jon's arc/situation to make him be the bad guy for a change". And this is so incredibly annoying because it achieves nothing except bring in even more bad takes re Jon. I didn't want to point any fingers and I won't do that here because I don't really believe whataboutisms will do us any good. Really, I'm more interested in dispelling the idea that Jon has to turn into some one dimensional, unthinking, evil zombie because that suits a few fans' narratives; and given that I'm a Jon Snow fangirl, I have to defend my boy here.

This is what led me to specifically calling out the idea that Jon will be Stoneheart 2.0 or like Varamyr. The Varamyr comparison was especially jarring because the argument I was going against implied that Jon would be like Varamyr morally. I don't think I need to go too much into why that's a bizarre argument that has absolutely no basis in the text. Before his death, Varamyr had be a local homicidal tyrant who had spend much of his life terrorizing the wildlings beyond the wall. He did not die, warg into an animal, and then go crazy. He was already severely messed up to begin with. So no, it makes no sense to compare him to Jon because they're on two opposite ends of the spectrum morally. Jon is not and will not turn in to a raping, murdering, maniac with no regard for humanity around him. In fact, the one thing that drives Jon's arc is having to make moral choices to do the most good for everyone. GRRM is not going to suddenly change that and turn him evil.

But we can use that ADWD prologue chapter to infer what could happen to Jon in other ways. Varamyr's chapter tells us that a warg who spends too much time in their bonded animal begins to lose himself/herself over time. And most people accept that Jon will become more "wolfish" by spending an extended period of time warging into Ghost. But here's the thing, we do not know how long Jon will be out of commission. And we do not know the rate at which one begins to merge with their familiar. So it also doesn't make sense to say that Jon will completely lose himself to Ghost because there's still so much that's up in the air.

Another thing that often gets overlooked is that there is a spectrum in regards to how resurrected beings function. There are those whose psyches are near permanently damaged and there are those who are relatively high functioning.

Ice wights - the most severe case of mental degradation that we've seen so far. They can hold a grudge (i.e. the wights that attacked LC Mormont) but we haven't seen them communicate or function in any way that's similar to regular humans.

Patchface - on the severe end of the spectrum. We don't really know too many details about what happened to him but the prevailing theory right now is that he is a "wight" brought back through the machinations of the drowned god. Patchface can't communicate normally so he has to do it in cryptic rhymes (which are most certainly prophecies). And let's remember that he had also been dead, with no place for his soul to go, for a few days before being brought back iirc.

Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart - closer to the severe end of the spectrum but I wouldn't say she's the most extreme case. She's singularly focused on getting revenge on the Boltons and Lannisters who were responsible for her family's downfall - more recently, her son's murder. Her body is severely degraded as well. But I wouldn't say she's on the same level as Patches just because the only reason she cannot communicate is because her throat was cut through. Still she can form thought, lead a group (the BWB), and if fan theories are correct about a RW 2.0 coming, she's even capable of carrying out semi-large scale conspiracy. But as I outlined in my previous post, Catelyn isn't doing the revenge thing because dying and being resurrected automatically turns someone into a "crazy monster". Catelyn, quite literally, watched the last of her line die right in front of her. And, she had also been severely depressed by her husband's death and the news of Bran's and Rickon's deaths prior to the RW. So as she was in her last moments, she was clawing her face with her own nails, screaming in anguish. Which led to her murdering Jinglebell!

Beric - pretty high functioning. Can lead a group of people, can fight, can communicate well enough with those around him. However, he cannot eat, sleep, his blood has turned back, etc. He also loses his memories. BUT let's remember that he was brought back several times which means that there were more adverse effects with each resurrection; and he became so tired of it that he gave his breath of life to Catelyn the minute he got the chance to. And Beric was not some unthinking zombie wrecking havoc across the Riverlands, killing everyone he could get his hands on. He did not lose his morality, nor did he lose his sense of purpose (well, he is singularly focused on carrying out the task delegated to him by Ned Stark). There's obviously a sense of loss (again losing human anatomical functions and also the memory loses) but he hasn't become some one dimensional character.

Coldhands - we don't really know exactly what brought him back (most likely COF magic) but he's relatively high functioning. Sure, he is like Beric in that he doesn't eat or sleep but he can think, he can plan, he can function mentally with little to no constraints. He's not going around murdering people willy nilly and being a menace to society. He is focused on doing something beyond the wall but we don't know too much about him. But we have hints that he is a skinchanger(!) and that could've helped him maintain his faculties.

Melisandre - no on page confirmation yet but the popular theory is that she is some form of fire wight (she doesn't need to eat, sleep, etc, like Beric and Coldhands). However, Mel functions as well as anyone else. And no, she's not burning people because she died - meaning that all people who die and are resurrected get really into human sacrifice. Mel's religion (and even background since she's from Asshai) is already heavily marked by these practices; just like Varamyr was already a morally degraded man before the ADWD prologue chapter. Mel is also decidedly NOT one-dimensionally evil, and GRRM has said before that she's his most misunderstood character.

As evidenced above, there's quite a few differences with the people brought back. There's no one-size-fits-all shoe for everyone. So no, Jon won't become Beric 2.0 or Stoneheart 2.0 or Coldhands 2.0 because that's just not how it works. He'll be his own being, something new.

But here's the thing, Jon is already different from all of these people in life. As @swordsandarms has had to point out multiple times (to a point where I'd imagine it's become quite the chore for them), Jon is a completely new entity by virtue of him being a magical being - something that neither Catelyn Stark nor Beric Dondarrion were. So even if we accept that they establish a lot of the changes that wights face, we should also make sure to point out that there is a massive difference between them and Jon. Saying that the effects on Jon are going be less severe due to him spending some time in Ghost is not at all saying that he'll get away scot-free. Pointing out that Ghost is not some savage animal but a direwolf who displays human-like characteristics and intelligence (that is quite ahead of his siblings) isn't saying that Jon will face no changes. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone in fandom who argues that Jon will just get up and resume life as usual.

And lastly, something else I want to call attention to is that we should be looking to already established precedent among other wargs and skinchangers. Because here's the thing, Jon's death and rebirth is going to be a massive event in the magical realm; I mean so many practitioners of different magic systems have seen it in some way or the other. From a Doylist perspective, Jon's death serves as a vehicle to bring him closet to magic. By the time he gets back he'll be a more practiced and powerful warg, he'll possibly be on the receiving end of more powerful and frequent prophetic visions, he could also gain the ability to wield fire magic (e.g., making his own Lightbringer a la Beric and as foreshadowed by his ADWD dream), and he's certainly going to become a fully fledged skinchanger. We know this last part to be true because of precedent set by Bran and Arya - Bran who had a near death experience and Arya who lost her eyesight - and I'd argue that we can throw Jojen Reed into the mix as well. So when we talk about the changes death will bring, we should also talk about these characters who obviously serve as foreshadowing as well.

(@daenystheedreamer gonna tag you for visibility since you tagged me in a previous post. Really sorry I didn't manage to reply in time but I think you deleted the post. Hope it's ok tho but long story short, you didn't misinterpret that post at all and what you said was exactly my point. But yeah, just letting you know that we're in agreement lol).