#(...discussion thereof this is the first time I've ever had to use this tag this is not my usual topic range!)

[thegirlwholied]

any chance you can describe the scene in bridgerton that has sparked all the debate? i see people argue about it but i just need like.. the most basic description to decide if i can/will watch it and you seem to know bridgerton things

OK. Deep breath. Because you asked, I will try? 

Without wading into debate... with some spoilers... and with the caveat that I’m always Team Extremely Enthusiastic Consent; this is one series I (clearly) both read & watched so the answer to can/will was yes for me but mileage will vary:

The two main characters have a very traditional romance-novel dynamic in one respect: the plenty-of-sexual-experience hero, and the so-innocent-she-doesn’t-even-know-how-sex-works virgin heroine. 

However consciously the book was playing off that trope, which is in so many romance novels, I’ve always read it as ‘when your entire sexual education relies on 1 guy & only what he shows you’...  that can go wrong. And it goes wrong. 

You may have seen some of the series’ sexcapades going by on Tumblr in gif form by now... That Scene is episode 6, of 8. 

Short version of the major driving plotline at this point: Daphne thinks her husband can’t have children when actually it’s a matter of won’t. Episode 6 is mostly filled with giddy honeymooning sexcapades... but with Simon using the pullout method, which goes right over Daphne’s head. And then she catches on. 

Basic show-version scene breakdown, from there: Daphne leads Simon into their bedroom, with things proceeding as laughing-honeymoon-ly as usual... until the point where he’d usually pull out, when he says “wait”, meaning to do so. And realizes, when she physically hangs on (on top), instead, something’s different this time. It’s intentionally filmed as a power shift. Immediate aftermath, Daphne gets up to leave, starting to head to her own bedroom for the first time in their marriage. The duke, still in bed, realizes what just happened.

From his reaction, her suspicions re: his lie of omission are confirmed. From her reaction, he knows she did this intentionally. His dawning hurt is the hardest part of the scene to watch, for me.

It plays out as a ‘how could you’/’how could you’ situation, with fallout & reconciliation over the following two episodes ~ 

~and whether the narrative sides too much with Daphne, whether there’s the right kind of fallout and reconciliation, whether this scene was integral to the plot or should have been changed more, how much casting changes how the scene feels... that’s then part of the debate. 

Which... oh no am I wading into debate? I do not have the energy to pull wellies on right now and that river runs deep... I do think the writers still could have done better especially in subsequent episodes, but sometimes characters’ actions are meant to be morally questionable and raise debate and sometimes it’s just a writing whoops (looking at Wonder Woman 1984, which I also watched on Christmas Day & which also managed to spark a consent debate, omg why, writers, when Steve could have just appeared). Bridgerton’s was an intentional writing choice - ‘murkiness’ is I think an apt word here - & I think the last paragraph of this article, and the articles it links to, speak well to overall context:

 “as the number of romance novel adaptations continues to rise in upcoming years, there will be ongoing debates about how many of these now-dated books — in which nonconsensual sex, sexual assault, and rape are not infrequent — will be best adapted for the screen. The good news is that the genre has largely moved away from depicting these types of sex scenes as romantic. The bad news, however, is that it's a lot harder to erase them from the industry's messy past.”

I’m glad romance novels are being adapted; I’m glad I discovered how smart & fun many of them are (it took me too long!). Many romance novels are also Not for Me, for the above-stated reasons. Bridgerton, books & show, I do enjoy... but there’s many things I don’t enjoy that other people do because something in it’s problematic in a way that gets to me, so completely get it if it’s Not For You.

 Whether you see the show as a success or failure on that front, I do think it’s trying to tell a story that reflects that sex is messy & complicated & has a learning curve & can be full of laughter & can make you feel deceived & helpless even when it is consensual especially when no one’s communicating clearly. Whether That Scene is/isn’t is the whole debate, but in writing I do think intent matters -especially as perception varies - and I do find it interesting the showrunner’s stated intent was to still evoke deception & helplessness without crossing the consent threshold. It becomes a a debate as part of the audience does see it that way! It’s also... fiction, as opposed to a how-to manual on consent. Since Bridgerton’s the first adaptation of its specific kind, there’s also a lot of extra attention/pressure on it. Can stories, romances especially, model consent? Yes; some do it brilliantly, and happily, more & more of them do! Do they have to...? Well... no. And when we start policing fiction we get a little Victorian & that’s not a good thing! That’s part of why AO3 exists, after all.

My personal take is, if Bridgerton was a fic on AO3, the writer would tag it as ‘dubcon’ not ‘noncon’. Some reviewers might disagree, but writers tag based on intent and to warn, I think that’s the warning they’d give. 

...And also, my take is that Netflix would be better with AO3-style tags. & so would romance novels. AO3-style tags on everything please, the better to choose wisely!

I hope this helps you decide whether you can/will watch!  

#bridgerton discourse #long post #under the cut because i do not want to trigger anyone and am adding tags as quickly as possible since answers make you post before tagging #(which is dumb) #more tags for everything #the summary version of my opinion: Netflix should have AO3 tags #and i think Bridgerton would be tagged as dubcon not noncon #as tags are based on writer intent and to warn and i think that's the warning they'd give #bridgerton #i don't use a blacklist I don't know what people may have blacklisted but we're going to take a stab at it! #tw: consent issues #cw: consent issues #tw: dubcon #(...discussion thereof this is the first time I've ever had to use this tag this is not my usual topic range!) #i also do think it's interesting the book is a woman writer but the showrunner is a man as that... brings both sides to bear on the topic #answers! #someday i swear some media i enjoy will be unproblematic again #...and then five or fifteen years will pass and that too will look problematic #the circle of life? #(recently was rewatching Doctor Who 2005 and it mostly holds up but also... there are the Slitheen episodes) #anyway i'm pro the debate but also the world is exhausting and the show is shiny with pretty people and flowers #i am just here for the pretty people and flowers tbh #...i'd bet maybe some people who didn't know what they were getting into and just wanted pretty people and flowers felt betrayed #by the That Scene of it all #...and that is why Netflix should have AO3 tags #...people would still disagree about what those tags should be but c'est la vie