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scoobydoodean · 2 months

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Hi! I just wanted to start off by saying that your analyses on the characters are awesome and they really helped further my understanding of the show, so keep up the good work! :D

I was wondering, if you don't mind answering, what did you think of about Dean giving permission for Gadreel/Ezekiel to possess Sam in season 9?

I'm still a bit on the fence about how to feel about it and I thought your particular brand of wisdom might be able to help me out.

Dean had just a few pieces of information at the hospital in 9.01.

Dean knew that Sam had every intention of surviving The Trials in 8.14 and in fact Sam promised he would survive them and show Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel, because Dean was suicidal: "I'm closing the gates. It's a suicide mission for you. [...] I want to slam hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't – I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it."

Dean observed that Sam became suicidal over the course of The Trials and that this culminated in Sam forsaking his promise and his desire to live and falling into a tailspin where he wanted to die to make himself "pure". Disturbing dialogue from 8.21: "Knights of the Round Table. Had all of King Arthur's knights, and they were all on the quest for the Holy Grail. And I remember looking at this picture of Sir Galahad, and, and, and he was kneeling, and— and light streaming over his face, and— I remember... thinking, uh, I could never go on a quest like that. Because I'm not clean. I mean, I w— I was just a little kid. You think... maybe I knew? I mean, deep down, that— I had... demon blood in me, and about the evil of it, and that I'm— wasn't pure? [...] It doesn't matter anymore. Because these trials... they're purifying me."

Dean pleaded with Sam not to kill himself in 8.23, and Sam agreed, asking, "How do I stop?"

These are the details Dean has prior to Sam falling into a coma. He believes that his brother wanted to commit suicide, but that he did change his mind and decide he wants to live.

Two other notable details:

First, Gadreel earns Dean's trust quickly by risking his ass to help Dean, and then on the phone (after being given the fake name "Ezekiel") Cas, relieved and pleased, vouches for Ezekiel. So Dean has no reason to suspect anything nefarious (and in fact, at this point, Gadreel doesn't have particularly nefarious intentions besides staying in hiding away from other angels).

Second, Dean is not the one who pleads with Sam to live in the dream sequence, getting him to say "Yes". It can't be Dean, because 1) "Dean's" face morphs into Gadreels which is clearly intended to indicate to us that this wasn't Dean speaking 2) If Gadreel was somehow projecting the real Dean into the conversation to give that speech, then Gadreel wouldn't be the one receiving the consent. It would truly be Dean receiving it and not just Gadreel pretending. Those words HAVE to come from Gadreel's mouth for the possession to work—not Dean's. We've seen angels morph into loved ones and mimic their voices perfectly several times.

With all that in mind:

After Gadreel pitches his plan to possess Sam, Dean immediately says it isn't his call to make—it's Sam's. It's after Gadreel shows him Sam falling back into the same suicidality from 8.23—wanting to die so that "no one else can get hurt because of me"—that Dean wavers. Still—at the end of the day, whether Sam agrees to live or not was never Dean's choice, and this is something I often see people get mixed up about. Dean doesn't get to choose whether Sam dies or not. It is still Sam who chooses to live. Sam does this by saying "Yes" to Gadreel. This could not have happened if Sam hadn't changed his mind about living. He doesn't know he's going to be possessed, but he has once again beaten back his suicidality and chosen to live. Sam still had hope in a good future.

Sam chose to live. He did not know he was going to be possessed. That's the issue. However, Dean did not intend to keep Gadreel's possession from Sam after it happened. Dean and Gadreel have this conversation upon leaving the hospital:

DEAN So? How's it look in there? EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY Not good. There is much work to be done. DEAN Yeah, but he's gonna wake up, right? EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY He will. DEAN So, what he does – what, is he gonna feel you inside, triaging his spleen? EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY He will not feel me, no. There is no reason for Sam to know I'm in here at all. DEAN You're joking. No, this is – this is too big. EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY And what will he do if you do tell him he is possessed by an angel? DEAN Well, he'll have to understand.

This conversation suggests that Dean's initial thought process was "We perform supernatural life-saving surgery". He just wanted to get Sam to a point where he'd wake up and they could talk. Like any situation with a relative in a coma, that person in a coma can't consent to surgery. The next of kin is the one who gives consent, because their loved one can't. They can only consent to a procedure if awake to do so. So Dean doesn't stop Gadreel from performing life saving surgery, but his intial belief and intent is that they'll put all of this back in Sam's hands when he's awake.

Up to this point, I don't actually have a problem with what Dean's done based on his knowledge. It's here at the end of the episode, where Gadreel convinces Dean to depart from his intial intent and stall, that in my opinion, the "Dean doing something wrong" part starts:

EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY And if he does not? Without his acceptance, Sam can eject me at any time, especially with me so weak. And if Sam does eject me, he will die. DEAN Then we keep it a secret for now. Or until Sam's well enough that he doesn't need an angelic pacemaker or I find a way to tell him. I - I... As for him being in a hospital, I'll have to figure something out. EZEKIEL IN SAM’S BODY I can erase it all, if you like. He will not remember any of this.

Dean doesn't feel good about it, but he agrees to keep quiet, because he's scared Sam will yet again make a suicidal play. Dean is riddled with guilt in the following episodes over lying to Sam, and in 9.08, Dean tries to tell Sam he's possessed, but Gadreel takes over Sam's body and stops him. Dean comes clean again in 9.09, only for Gadreel to stop Sam from receiving the news again.

So. Dean's mistake is lying to Sam. He shouldn't have lied to him. Point blank. At the same time, had Dean pushed the issue, would Gadreel have been willing to be expelled? Would he ever have allowed Dean to tell Sam the truth, from the moment he was... installed? Or was Dean screwed from the beginning, and was the idea that he got to choose any of this—any bit of it—really just... an illusion to keep Dean compliant with the possession that was keeping Gadreel under the radar?

Think about it for a second. Why did Gadreel ask Dean's permission? He didn't ever need Dean's permission to do any of this. He didn't need Dean's permission to trick Sam. He didn't need Dean's permission to remove Sam's memory of the hospital. He didn't need Dean's permission to keep the fact that he was possessing Sam a secret. He could have done every bit of this without asking. The problem was, Dean probably would have caught onto the disappearing angel act, and Gadreel would have had to get violent, and for the first part of season 9, Gadreel doesn't want to get violent! He just wants a place to lay low, and sees an opportunity to prove he's a good angel who helps humans—not just the angel who let the serpent into the garden. Getting Dean's "consent" might ease his own conscience about nonconsensual possession or be a way to keep Dean compliant or both, but ultimately, these are more questions worth weighing imo, because Supernatural loves to toy with the illusion that Dean has power in situations where he doesn’t, and in this case, he doesn't... actually have any power at all... does he?

That said, when it comes right down to it, Dean still did something wrong by helping keep the secret—by not trying to tell Sam the truth immediately because he was scared. And well. Okay. So what?

This is a show with characters who have good intentions but still make mistakes. As Cas will say about this later, "You were stupid for the right reasons". We get some great insights into the pitfalls that lead Dean down this path, and it's interesting to watch that happen and then later, see a broken mirror as Sam endeavors to prove through season 10 what Dean is willing to do can't touch what Sam is ultimately willing to do to keep Dean around.

Here's the thing—I don't believe for a single second that Sam wouldn't do the exact same thing in 9.01 had their positions been reversed. Sam and Dean have a conversation along these lines at the end of 9.13 "The Purge":

DEAN All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you'd do the same thing. SAM No, Dean. I wouldn't. Same circumstances...I wouldn't.

This genuinely wounds Dean and gets brought up a few times, but then in 9.23 when it's brought up for the last time in another context:

DEAN What happened with you being okay with this? SAM I lied.

Sam never gets the chance to do the exact same thing to Dean, but he has already gone behind Dean's back to try and save his life before. He's used Dean's death to justify doing things Dean begged him not to do on his behalf. He kept the case they were actually on under wraps as he inched toward a plan to turn himself and Dean into Frankenstein's monsters in 3.15 (and really the only reason it didn't work is that Sam got captured by Doc Benton and Dean had to save his ass, and then Sam morosely helped dig the grave). Sam went behind Dean's back directly against his wishes to threaten a crossroad's demon in 3.05. In season 10, he violates Dean's consent by removing the Mark of Cain from Dean's arm using the Book of the Damned, which not only requires an overt human sacrifice of Oskar and gets a woman named Suzie killed in "The Werther Project" because Sam refuses to heed her warnings, but also results in the apocalypse... and all of this was something Dean asked Sam not to do, and Sam did every bit of it to get his brother back, and while standing in the wreckage in 11.01, echoed Dean's line from 9.13, saying, "I would do it again". Dean signed the supernatural possession next-of-kin consent form, and the fallout was Kevin and Sam. Sam violated Dean's consent and tens of thousands of people died and he said he'd do it again while they died around him.

#also i got excited but xoxo 😘#season 9 #9.01 #gadreel #the flannel business #3.15 #3.05 #11.01 #9.13 #8.14 #9.08 #9.09 #mail

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scoobydoodean · 1 year

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hi it's gadreel anon from yesterday and i just wanna say 'there's no way in hell he'd say yes to being possessed by anything' <- direct quote from dean in 9x01. we don't know what sam would actually have said if given the choice but dean believes he would never agree to it so he and 'ezekiel' have to come up with a way to get a yes from sam without sam fully knowing what's happening. good of him to try to tell sam later but he did believe he had to wait until it was too late for sam to say no.

Hi Gadreel anon! For anyone who doesn't know, this would be related to my tags on a reblog last night about the "Gadreel Situation". Anon had also sent this very appreciated message about a much needed uquiz choice!

I also JUST got another anon message that begins with,

obsessed w people who compare sam’s willingness for death in s8/s9 (which, to me at least, read as him being suicidal) to a DNR.

So DNR anon—this is for you too!

So the issue is, Gadreel anon, in my tags I was thinking of a different moment from the one you were referring to! I was thinking of this moment:

and you were thinking of this moment earlier in the same episode:

So my bad in my tags!

(This makes me even more interested in, at some point, doing a uquiz about fandom memory haha).

Too late for Sam to say no though? I didn't say otherwise. I said that Dean wanted to put the choice back in Sam's hands as soon as possible, but then allowed himself to be convinced not to when he shouldn't have, and that either way, Gadreel would never have let Dean tell Sam.

But here's what I always come back to, which is what the OP whose post I tagged on was getting at and what I meant when I talked about analyzing the situation in a vacuum (I'm not saying this is something you are doing Gadreel Anon—it just got me thinking about some of the ways fandom talks about Sam in this context and then DNR anon came in with their frustrations):

Here's 8.14 "Trial and Error" when Sam originally insists on being the one to do The Trials.

This is a Sam full of hope. This is a Sam who knows his brother intends to treat The Trials as a way to off himself because he thinks he's disposable to everyone in his life and he's disposable to himself. So Sam insists, "No—absolutely not—you will NOT be doing The Trials in this state of mind!! I'm going to be the one to do The Trials and I am going to survive then I'm going to save you from your suicidal ideation!"

By 8.21 though, Sam is no longer a man full of hope. He's a man who believes he needs to die so everyone can be spared of him—so that he can become clean:

[Gifset (EVEN MORE HEARTBREAKING) here]. And here's a rant back and forth between me and a friend about that moment, which is also a more general commentary on my thoughts about fandom framing things as "Sam had peacefully come to the conclusion that he was ready to die and Dean shouldn't have tried to stop him from killing himself in "Sacrifice", and season 9 is just him doubling down on when he was "manipulative" and "selfish" in 8.23 because he *checks notes* convinced his suicidal brother not to kill himself, just like Sam did for him in 8.14 (also, if anyone is actively attempting to manipulate anyone in 8.23—which is not how I like to view the scene on my good days—it's not Dean <3 love and light <3).

So yeah—despite the popularity of reducing the entire thing down to "Sam was ready to die and Dean just couldn't let him go!!!" It is, in my opinion, a terrible take, because it ignores literally everything that happened and Sam's actual state of mind! He originally intended to live!! That was the WHOLE POINT!!! Then that changed to him wanting to kill himself because he thought he was dirty and that he deserved it!

So then Dean makes the same promise to Sam that Sam made to him in 8.14 and couldn't fulfill. He takes on the burden of that promise for both of them instead, and he becomes the one saying, "I'll show you to the light at the end of the tunnel and you'll see there's a future and a hope for you and that you are not irreparably broken and disposable". And Sam agrees!! He agrees that he wants to live!!!

Then they get to the hospital, and Gadreel is saying "There's only one way left I can think of to save Sam" and Dean immediately dismisses it, but then he asks Gadreel, "If I consider this – and I mean just consider it – I need something, man. You got to prove to me how bad he is." And when Dean says that, he means how suicidal is his brother? How much does he still hate himself and how much is he refusing to fight on his own because he hates himself? Is he even really fighting? And this is the answer he gets:

"Nobody else can get hurt because of me"!!! Ahhhhh!!!!

I do think one thing we can argue, is that Dean should have entered Sam's mind and convinced him to fight on his own! However, in desperation, Dean happened to have made an ill-thought-out prayer doxxing his location earlier in the day to a legion of very pissed off angels, all of whom hate his guts and know that a guy whose guts they hate even more is obsessed with him (like—Naomi making him kill thousands of fake Dean's obsessed), so beating him and his brother to death sounded really nice at that moment! So Dean did not have the time! And Sam's issues were far larger than one conversation could fix (as proved by Sam's state of mind in 9.01 coming immediately after agreeing to continue fighting in 8.23).

Dean, when he first made the decision to go into Sam's head through Gadreel to get him to say "Yes", considered the action he took as applying the charge to jolt Sam back to life after he tried to kill himself, which absolutely—was against Sam's expressed wish (re: conversation with Death) that he wanted to die. But when fans complain about that, they are complaining about something we as a society do all of the time when we want people who want to kill themselves to not kill themselves. It's just that this charge Dean applies is angelic and comes with extra strings and complications and another "thing that Sam did not want" besides just wanting to live. However, Dean was thinking, "As soon as Sam is back, I can put the decision in his hands!" Then he kept allowing himself to be convinced "A little longer", "a little longer", "just a little longer" and he thought, "Well, even if Sam hates me, at least he'll be alive!"

Some people will shrug and think, "Well, Dean should have just taken the L!" And that's okay! I have no problem with someone saying, "Dean should not have done it, because even though his motive was wanting to save his suicidal brother, the actions he took to do so were too far and therefore were wrong, and he should have prioritized respecting Sam's wishes and Sam's principles over applying angelic life-support Sam would disagree with". But that isn't what Dean did, and I... just don't think the motivations for his actions were nearly so selfish and evil as a lot of fandom wants to make them out to be, and are choices a lot of people would probably make in the same circumstances and in the same situation. Including, according to himself, Sam—who admits in 9.23, after his initial claim at the end of "The Purge" that he wouldn't do the same thing—"I lied". Then he spends all of season 10 proving all kinds of insane and morally questionable lengths he'll go to to keep Dean around!!! Things that he knows Dean does not agree with!!! While Sam doesn't directly let something possess Dean, in season 10, Dean does not want Sam to use the Book of the Damned and tells him directly not to use it several times—that he does NOT want to be saved using that book, because he is afraid of the consequences. However, Sam uses it anyway and orders Oskar up a human sacrifice in his wake with absolutely zero remorse—like he is ordering pizza—which is something Sam also knows, and has known since season 3 when Sam had a couple of plots that involved it, that Dean is not cool with at all!!! And hardcore Sam stans will argue "Well Sam was trying to save the world from Dean!" but actually no!! He chose this specific path that involved removing The Mark and saving his brother (despite the forewarned cosmic consequences and Dean's repeated insistence that said consequences were unacceptable) rather than locking Dean away forever, because he wanted his brother back!!! And while they were standing in a town being ripped to shreds by Amara, Sam said, "I would do it again"!

All of that to say—I'm not saying nothing Dean did was wrong, but fandom's analysis of the whole situation is bad and attributes motivations to Dean and Sam that are wrong!!!

#mail #9.01 #season 9 #gadreel #8.23 #season 8 #the flannel business

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