#Book ending vs Show ending | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

thedeadflag · 7 months

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I've rewatched WoT S02E06 three times now, and once again I find myself hoping beyond hope that we get a better ending with the Seanchan at the end of the show than what RJ/BS managed with the books.

Like, I get the "little in life is black or white, we exist in the greys" bit that's routinely pushed, and the narrative exploration of the politics of privilege and how the majority of a society can grow to tolerate and appreciate the subjugation of others and the horrors their government inflict if it means their own lives benefit. I get the spotlighting themes of Law vs Justice and Order vs Peace they bring out. I get that. I do think both authors really had a tendency to stumble when writing towards those aims, and it often came across as minimizing the evil of the Seanchan. There are things in life worse than death, and I never did see the Seanchan as any better (and often saw them as worse) than the Dark One's forces. By the end of the series, the dark one's imprisoned again, and the Seanchan are reasonably well equipped to eventually conquer the world within a few generations (and iirc we do get glimpses of that future through Aviendha). The only other alternative would be if Shara only let a trickle of their forces to the final battle, and had enough of a channeler army to pose a threat, and they honestly wouldn't be any better. Shit's seriously fucked.

And I have little doubt that not too long after that conquering (or perhaps in the later stages of it), some desperate people will bore into the Dark One's prison again and release him in exchange for the power to defeat the Seanchan. And I honestly wouldn't blame them (and the Dark One probably worked to build that force over the centuries as a plan B if all else fails), and it may just be the right thing so that the Seanchan society can die off, and hopefully when the Dark is defeated once again, there won't be the threat of a looming incomprehensibly evil society ready to take over.

Like, I don't need a kittens and rainbows happy ending in the show, it wouldn't fit the series, but I do want one where the threat of the Seanchan is seriously considered and where there's some glimmer of hope for a better turning of the wheel. Throughout the series, I always considered them on par with the Dark One as the "big bad", if not the sneakily primary one, since they're more 'digestible' as the more human face of evil, but still no less evil than the Dark One and its forces. And it's a big reason why Sanderson's books kind of fell flat for me and often undermined the tension they tried to build in sections related to them, because the threat of the Seanchan really wasn't addressed well, at least not IMO.

It's probably because RJ planned another book series featuring Mat that would potentially explore the deconstruction of Seanchan society and the political intrigue and philosophical issues involved with changing the core principles of a society and the elements of imperialism/colonialism involved in that, but we're never getting that story, so can we please just ensure the show ends with a decisive L for the Seanchan? Please let them reap the consequences of their own actions for goddamned once, at least to some extent to where there's meaningful hope for a better future.

Or maybe just have Semirhage completely eliminate all Seanchan leadership and capability to enslave channelers during her time in the Seanchan mainland, and publicly collars a few sul'dam before killing them to break public faith in that whole system. Like, screw the civil war nonsense, just cast them into utter chaos, left to question everything they believed in. That way, by the end of the show, there may be less narrative impact to the truce, but it'd make for a more hopeful ending given the slim likelihood of the Seanchan culture and principles lasting long after the end.

Like, I don't care all that much how it happens, only that it does happen. The writers have a chance to make their own mark in a good way, and if the series lasts that long, I hope that they take it. (And also maybe just omit the Shaido abduction arc entirely, it doesn't need to happen and they wouldn't have the runtime on screen to justify that conclusion.)

#wheel of time #wheel of time spoilers #wheel of time book spoilers #wot on prime spoilers #long post #it's probably too large of an ask given the potential backlash it could result in but the Seanchan make me feral with rage #and if anyone feels like arguing with me over this please don't bother #because I'm 100% right on this and no one could convince me otherwise #this is an opportunity for the show to be better than the books in one particular way #i don't like that a 15 book fantasy epic ends their battle of light vs dark with fantasy nazis having the means to conquer the world #allow for a better turning of the wheel please #I am a fan of the books but I do not perceive it to be flawless #and I do think the show has the chance in its adaptation and condensing of material to make improvements or at least avoid mistakes

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oveliagirlhaditright · 1 year

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I guess it's not overly common, or maybe it is and it's just in fiction, because there's plenty of them, and good in depth ones...but I also have always kind of liked or at least had interest for Bangelus I always was bummed there was never another meeting w them. It was something of ATS that didn't make sense since she was all he thought about last time he was out and he even almost ended the world. It was waste that rematch never happened....

I definitely agree, anon. I imagine a lot of it has to do with the legal issues at the time, of course. With Buffy and Angel being on different networks and the networks not really wanting the different characters to appear on each other's shows.

And, perhaps, the writers felt like if they had a Buffy vs. Angelus thing again--even if there would of course be some differences this time--it would be too much like Buffy season two, so instead they had Angelus vs. Faith instead (which I do love).

But it definitely is weird that Angelus didn't seem to mention Buffy much in Angel season 4, when she was all he thought about before. I think the most we get is him calling Buffy "a pistol," (which is a great line), and him calling Dawn and asking if Buffy's there (to figure out if the Slayer in town he's hearing about is Buffy or Faith), right?

To be honest, we can't deny that some of this might also be because season four is where a lot of where the Angel/C*ordelia plot line is. And during that, the show kind of stopped mentioning Buffy (to maybe try and give the illusion that Angel had moved on some, to try and get the audience to stop thinking of the Angel/Buffy pairing, or moreover to get people to not question... "Wait, how is Angel pursuing a relationship when he still has the curse when the whole reason he left Buffy is because he can't have a relationship if he still has the curse?"). So that might also be part of it. But I definitely think it's moreso the first points.

And, I know I'm biased here, of course (though I do still enjoy Angel/C*ordelia some, though Angel/Buffy is my OTP now), but I don't think Angelus really had feelings for C*ordelia (Buffy seems to be the only person that both the man and demon in him loved). Or if he did, it wasn't like what he felt for Buffy. Because if he had, wouldn't they have made him crazy like his feelings for Buffy had? Like, wouldn't he have wanted to destroy her for making him love her, too, if that had been a thing? So I don't think something like "Angelus had feelings for C*ordelia and that's why he didn't really think about Buffy in season four" was a thing.

The closest we probably ever get to seeing Buffy and Angelus ever interact again in canon is the comics (I don't know if you've read those, anon).

In season 8, I feel like Twilight (this other persona of Angel's, who, is, like partly good and partly bad; and also being possessed by his and Buffy's kind-of-evil kid [it's a super long and complicated story)] is kind of Angelus-like to me. But also Angel-like some. And yes, he and Buffy do end up fighting.

And then in season 10, Angelus makes a brief appearance (when his great-grandsire brings him out again) and he jealously attacks Spike in knowing that at the moment Buffy has chosen to be with him instead. And this definitely seems to hint, of course, that Angelus has finally accepted his feelings for Buffy by this point (the Twilight stuff kind of did, too--if you choose to see Twilight as partly Angelus at all--since he was choosing to be with Buffy and trying to create a perfect world with her, where they and everyone they loved could be together).

There's also a part in the tie-in book "Monster Island" (that takes place in early Buffy season 6 and Angel season 3), where Buffy and Angel (and Gunn) are kidnapped by the Big Bad of the book's minions. To try and get them out, Tara casts a spell to get all magical creatures to attack each other (thinking the demons would then turn against each other, and they could just easily swoop in and save Buffy and Angel at that point). But she didn't count on Buffy and Angel also being magical creatures, of course (or even herself being a magical creature), so Buffy and Angel are trying to break from their bonds to kill each other. And Angel is starting to be very Angelus-like (like, Angel even thinks that), though he's trying to fight it.

...This reply is all over the place. And I don't know if it makes much sense. Sorry about that! But like you, I do kind of wish that we'd gotten more Bangelus in canon! Like, it's cool that in the comics it seems that Angelus has undergone some sort of journey offscreen and accepted his love for Buffy, but I wish we had seen that onscreen somewhere.

But oh well. I guess that's what fanfiction is for:)

Thanks for the ask!

Edit: There's also more Buffy and Angelus in the book "Night Terrors," a Buffy Choose Your Own Adventure book. But if you get on the path where Angelus shows up, it's sort of an alternate canon to Buffy season two, as he shows up earlier there than he did in season two (before he and Buffy make love, etc.).

Angelus is also in the book "One Thing or Your Mother," and the classic comic "Ring of Fire," but they're more missing moments/episodes from season two, than Angelus showing up in a later season and seeing Buffy again or anything like that. I do highly recommend both, however, since you're a Bangelus fan. Especially "One Thing or Your Mother." Oh! And in the tie-in-novel "Here Be Monsters" (that takes place during Buffy season three), there's a section where Buffy is seeing her worst nightmares. I think it's Angelus she sees (and I think she sees herself killing him again? it's been a while), who tells her that she knows how their story is going to have to end (with her killing him once more), and she'd better make it stick this time.

In the tie-in book, "The Evil That Men Do" (a book that takes place in season three), Buffy and Angel are kidnapped by Helen (a former vampire lover of Angelus') and her lover and forced to try to kill each other in a gladiator-like game. They pretend that they've turned on each other to get out of it and get their enemies to try to kill one another (as Helen's lover was always jealous of her and Angelus, and now he fears they're going to be together again).

In the classic comic "City of Despair" (that takes place in Buffy season 4/Angel season 1) Buffy and Angel are abducted to another dimension (called the City of Despair, actually), and forced to battle each other. They both have these collars on their necks, that are impossible to remove and will kill them if they disobey. They're also, like, almost forced to fight against their will: their bodies moving with a mind of their own, I mean. But eventually Buffy realizes that it's literally people's despair keeping them there. She convinces Angel to try to fight against the feeling with her for just one moment: the two of them embrace, and then escape.

Edit 2: Wait. I guess there's also the Buffy book "Big Bad," that has Buffy and Angelus in it, but I haven't read it yet. So I can't tell you how good or in-character that one is atm. And unlike how the original tie-in books and classic comics were always okayed by at least one of the original writers, I'm not sure if these new novels have been. I'm thinking not?

Edit 3: And though a part of me is loath to mention Boom, since they're not canon and I have... not very positive emotions about these comics in a lot of ways. In the first Buffy/Angel comic they were doing, Angel ended up possessed by something called the Hellmother, I believe it was called, while he and Buffy were on a mission in the Hellmouth together. And then Buffy ended up having to fight him.

#long post #bangelus #bangel #asked and answered #this also gets into headcanon territory of course: but i'd like to believe s4!angelus would have eventually come to sunnydale. but he was #being more careful. and doing things a bit differently this time. after last time #but it's def possible. imo. since we don't see into angelus' head in s4 that much as compared to s2 #but you know... as much as i would have loved to see buffy vs angelus again in angel s4 and buffy s7. it might be best it didn't happen #in the shows and is just a fanfic (a very good) fanfic thing. buffy went through much that season. and the seasons prior. she didn't need #that too. another user said this (can't think of their name right now). but hearing angelus was back while she was dealing with the first #and trying to protect all the potentials probably WOULD have put her on suicide watch. my poor girl #also in another choose your own adventure book. colony. you can get bad endings where buffy and angel pretty much kill each other #since in that book either angel buffy or giles got the whammy put on them by the big bad #also bad endings in night terrors where angelus kills buffy #but those kinds of things are par for the course with choose your own adventure books #colony takes place in s2 too #but of course none of that would be canon. those bad endings #though it could be canon where angel or buffy got the whammy put on them but then got broken out of it: those endings #excuse me while i just add in all of the buffy/angel fight scenes i can think of. i guess. that people might not know about here #that are maybe angelus-esque (some of these definitely stretching that. i know). since it might somewhat kind of-ish be a bit of what #you're looking for anon #also. side note. all of these buffy books and comics are actually really good. even the first buffy/angel boom story i prefer much more to #some of their later stuff probably #and angelus himself has been in some of the boom comics now. though not at the same time as buffy sadly #and i don't know how in-character or not he's been. because i sort of stopped reading boom. but what little i did see with him looked like #it might have been taking him in a strange direction. but i may be wrong #there's also the angel book 'impressions' where these stones are making all of the demons act wild/angry which. if you haven't guessed.#makes angel act more like angelus and sort of pulls angelus out more and more as the book progresses (until things are resolved) and in #that book angel thinks of buffy twice there #that book takes place during angel season 3/buffy season 6

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