#ETA: obviously there were whole decades without even one

[mittensmorgul]

Re: demons. So I'm thinking it's invite only. Most people get tortured for eternity, but some get the offer Dean got to pick up the knife (or MLM scheme demon deal making kit) and thus get corrupted into a demon. Who you were in life determines exactly which deal you get. Plenty of idiots make it through (see some of Crowleys more idiotic lackeys(but then who else goes for the MLM)) but then they always do (like seriously I've worked with absolute idiots with better degrees than me)

AHA! Re: This post I made the other day:

https://mittensmorgul.tumblr.com/post/188481674845/any-thoughts-on-the-differences-between-ghosts-and

(sorry I’ve been slow to reply, I know you sent this a couple days ago…)

We’ve seen that people get tortured in different ways. Like in 6.20, we saw Crowley’s “eternally standing in line” torture. 

At the rate that line was moving, someone could theoretically be standing in that line for centuries, you know?

And Dean’s specific offer wasn’t about him becoming a demon. Alastair wasn’t making him that offer because he was tempting Dean into becoming a demon, but tempting him into becoming the torturer in fulfillment of a specific prophecy in order to break the first Seal and start the Apocalypse. We have no other information on the state of Dean’s soul before nor after that, only that when Cas returned him to his body he was not a demon. I don’t know how broadly we can apply Dean’s specific circumstance to other souls, because no one else was tied to that prophecy the same way, you know?

Like Sam’s soul, which was in the cage for about 4x longer (in Earth Years, I’m still not convinced that “Hell Time” is a standard thing across all areas of Hell) than Dean’s soul was. Was the “Hell damage” Cas eventually took from Sam’s soul something akin to “demonic stain” or was it something else entirely? If we do learn that Adam has been in the cage with Michael this whole time, that might shed some light on it. I don’t think we’ll find that (if he has been in the cage for a decade) Adam will be a demon, you know?

So I do agree with you in that there’s some other factor at work here, aside from concentrated torture and time elapsed. There’s got to be other factors in determining who becomes a demon and who just ~stands in line for eternity~.

Like, we saw Bobby’s Hell, where he’d been for about a year (from the time they burned his flask in 7.23 and when Sam goes to rescue him in 8.19). He’d experienced a stone cell where he’d been continuously visited by demons pretending to be Sam and Dean there to save him. So in addition to the general “torture by eternal annoyance” devices such as waiting in line for nothing, which honestly, could account for most of the people who made crossroads deals even… something tells me a lot of those sorts of folks won’t be doing “great things” in Hell, if they traded their soul for like… something really petty or dumb, you know? Then there are the souls that sold themselves altruistically for someone else’s sake (like the guy in 2.08, or Ellie in 8.14) who knew their eventual fate and felt it was worth it to help their loved one (like John trading his soul for Dean) (and Dean would’ve fallen into this category if it hadn’t been for his Very Specific Purpose of breaking the Apocalypse seal). Those folks might be destined for something other than “general group torture.” But to what end?

I’m not sure if it would just be a matter of choice, you know? Because given the choice after enough time, I think it’s unlikely that a lot of people wouldn’t make that choice. Being a demon with some power to move about, potentially even to LEAVE Hell once in a while, and not being chained to a specific torture after years (decades? centuries?) of standing in line or being flayed to bits on the daily… who wouldn’t choose to escape that torture eventually?

Not that being a demon is such a fun alternative, but after that long, it would still be something not-that, you know?

Several demons have commented on how awful hell is, even for demons. Ruby, and even Crowley. His “Palace” isn’t even in Hell, because he just hates being in Hell that much. The demons who have regular access to Earth, either because they’re powerful enough (like Abaddon, or any of the other higher-level demons we’ve seen on the show), or have a reason for walking the Earth (crossroads demons, etc.) and who haven’t been exorcised back to Hell seem to have a lot of freedom, comparatively. I can’t imagine anyone trapped in Hell wouldn’t see choosing to become a demon as a potential escape from the constant torture.

Until 15.02, I’d always assumed that the process of “demonization” was something that just ~happened~ if a soul was in Hell long enough. And honestly that might still be the case. But the speed at which a soul is turned seems to vary. Perhaps those with magic or direct connection to a demon turn more quickly, maybe the process of being turned into a demon is only a torture for specific souls for a reason that we don’t (and will likely never) know. Maybe it’s just cosmic consequences, you know?

Extrapolating out what Anubis said about the destiny of souls after death, that it’s not anyone “deciding” where souls go when they die, but the souls themselves. (Obviously Chuck and shady reapers have the power to override a soul’s destination, but for the vast majority who aren’t on Chuck’s radar, things just happen without that sort of interference.) So maybe “who becomes a demon and who remains forever tortured in Hell” is determined the same way? Could be.

Again, I’m not sure if the show has any intention of ever clarifying any of this in canon, so at this point it’s all just a fun lil headcanon exercise. 

ETA: GAH I forgot to mention Abaddon in s9, and her scheme to “demonize souls in jars.” She was trying to create a lot of demons very quickly, and whatever was happening in those jars would’ve theoretically created a host of demons within a very short period of time if Sam hadn’t freed them. So… was there some sort of magic involved in that process?

It was implied that Abaddon used this method to make demons because Crowley’s crossroads deals took too long to collect on, and she wanted her army NOW. The implication at the time being that all souls who make crossroads deals will eventually become demons, but I don’t know if that theory can still hold now. But Abaddon seemed confident that all of her random “canned souls” could be demonized. It just took a specific concentrated effort to make it happen.

#spn 15.02 #spn 6.20 #spn 7.23 #spn 8.19 #spn 3.09 #spn 2.22 #angels and souls #aka the closest thing i have to a soul tag... #heaven hell purgatory and the empty #spn 14..08 #spn cosmology #Anonymous #spn 9.17

[azuresquirrel]

Now this post is for some more spoilerly points. Now this is NOT meant to be comprehensive. There are so many details in this movie that I plan to see several more times, and I’m not going into every detail here. Just some things I wanted to highlight for my initial viewing.

SOME SPACE HERE FOR MOBILE PEOPLE

Okay, just going to make some bullet points:

-Yeah yeah yeah, everything’s a fucking “cinematic universe” nowadays. But yes, that opener and ender were only there because of “DC MOVIES TRYING TO BE MARVEL.” I’ll say this: they’re both very short and perfunctory (I clearly got the impression that Jenkins did the bare minimum to fulfill the contractual obligation of “NEEDS BATMAN” and I respect her for that). I was also much softer on the ending given that it plays on the watch. STILL I must say THAT OPENING SCENE WAS SO VERY UNNECESSARY. Start on Themiscrya. Start with Diana telling US her story. I was so very cross that we had a fucking car saying “WAYNE ENTERPRISES” on it before we saw Diana’s FACE.

-I know that this is not this movie’s fault - it is HOLLYWOOD’S stupid trends fault but still. I am so very over COLOR = BAD, BROWN AND GRAY = REALISTIC AND GOOD that has infected most all mainstream movies nowadays.

-At least THEMISCRYA ITSELF LOOKED BEAUTIFUL AND COLORFUL.

-I mean yes there was A LOT of movie and A LOT of story to go through. But. We still did not spend enough time on Themiscrya. I could’ve spent hours in Themiscrya.

-It was profoundly affecting to see so many scenes with NOT A SINGLE MAN ON SCREEN. ALL WOMEN. This shouldn’t have affected me so deeply. People don’t fucking blink all the time when there’s so many men onscreen and not a single woman. It’s 2017 why is this still a fucking issue?

-I’m not going to delve deep into this movie and race (IT’S NOT GOOD). I will just say that it was nice to have women of many races on Themiscrya. But yeah, in terms of importance it is a very very white movie.

-I didn’t hate the daughter-of-Zeus thing as much as I thought I would. It was still unnecessary though. They could have written it differently (like . . . why do the Amazonians care about ZEUS anyway? The Greek pantheon is not lacking in goddesses they could have used instead).

-I don’t care about this movie making its own shit up re: the Greek gods and myths because 1. COMICS and 2. that’s what American media has done for decades. IT’S JUST A BOX OF LEGOS AT THIS POINT. Honestly props for having Ares be the villain for fucking once instead of Hades.

-Speaking of, I like that the “twists” of the movie . . . weren’t really. They aren’t twists, they’re blatantly obvious. They are revelations to DIANA (because she doesn’t know she’s in a movie) and they’re important for how they affect HER and her arc and understanding, and not for pulling one over on the audience. I LIKE THAT A LOT.

-In fact I loved how fucking obvious the “god-weapon” thing was. One of the things that annoyed me about the trailer (and god what a bad fucking trailer it was) was all the focus on the damn sword. Over the LASSO and the GAUNTLETS. Yes Diana can fight with anything because she’s fucking Wonder Woman but a sword is not her symbol. So when it was immediately apparent that the sword was a total red herring and that the weapon was Diana herself I was pretty damn happy.

-The “humorous” woman-meeting-Man’s-World stuff was very hit or miss. I did enjoy the blatant subversion of the “born sexy yesterday” trope (Diana: yes I know all about what sex is and men are not effective for pleasure, lol). But yeah you can bet that my eyes rolled out of my head at the whole “what is that thing” “. . . oh it’s a WATCH lol” like come the fuck on, people.

-That being said, kudos to Steve Trevor for being the only naked person in this movie.

-Also that being said, I of course had reservations about the token heterosexuality but . . . actually it didn’t turn out to be an annoying token. I didn’t care going into this movie about them “doing right” by Steve Trevor, but ultimately everything combined to make him WORTHY of Diana. He is a hero who earns being a hero and he never overshadows Diana or takes over her movie in doing so. Also his actual heroic sacrifice was 100% earned and actually emotional. SO GOOD JOB MOVIE, YOU MADE ME CARE ABOUT A MALE LOVE INTEREST. THAT’S AN ACCOMPLISHMENT.

-Also thank fuck the movie isn’t strangled by the red string. Yeah Diana and Steve’s romance is there and happens but takes up very little of the screentime, god bless.

-THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH ETTA CANDY IN THIS MOVIE.

-I’ll say this regarding the female villain: I loved her mask and I loved the name DR. POISON because both were so gloriously comic book-y.

-Also Steve’s almost successful attempt to play the fucking honeypot scheme on her. YOU GO STEVE TREVOR, STRONG MALE CHARACTER.

-Also fucking kudos to David Thewlis for walking onscreen and being so Obviously Evil that again, the twist was a total non-twist.

-Diana in her gorgeous “normal woman” outfit and glasses, carrying the sword and shield: ICONIC and A LOOK.

-Also whoops I missed it, but Steve waking up after being rescued from a watery grave, looking up at Diana’s glorious face and saying “wow.” HARD SAME, BUDDY.

-EVERY FIGHT SCENE. WAS SO GOOD.

-I suppose some people may dislike the slo-mo because it’s such a Synder thing now but I LOVED IT.

-EVERY SINGLE FIGHT SCENE THOUGH.

-Okay but that moment in the Amazons-and-Germans fight when Antiope does the jumping off the shield bit and shoots THREE SOLDIERS AT ONCE. HAWKEYE AIN’T GOT SHIT ON THAT.

-Also DIANA FIGHTS WITH HER SHIELD AND GAUNTLETS AND THE LASSO AS MUCH, IF NOT MORE, THAN THE SWORD, GOD BLESS.

-No Man’s Land. Iconic. 

-The climatic fight felt like a comic book in the best way. It really felt like two Gods clashing and I lived for it.

-One of the most profoundly affecting things about this movie is how every moment of suffering that Diana witnesses affects her and she tries to do everything she can about it and says that something MUST be done to stop it. In so many superhero movies, action movies, heck just MOVIES, suffering is shown and reveled in without any sense of sympathy or empathy, it’s used cheaply. But here is AFFECTS Diana and it doesn’t make her weak - it’s her STRENGTH. To see suffering and injustice and to say NO, THIS IS WRONG.

-I’m sure that . . . moment with Dr. Poison is going to be real fucking controversial (you know what I mean). Just *hoooof*. I’m not going to pass moral judgement on that personally, as I think there are many others who have a far greater right than I to do so. THIS IS WHAT I MEAN ABOUT BEING UNETHICAL IN THE WWII SETTING. Like . . . god it’s not trying to say “don’t hurt N@zis” (I mean otherwise the lack of “if you kill evildoer then you are ~just as bad as them~ was refreshing. Hell, Diana calls a man dishonorable for not looking the people he kills in the face, and there’s no sense of her being “compromised” for her killing many people in battle). It’s TRYING to be about her rejecting Ares’s “humans are just shit so we should destroy them all” view . . . but HOOOOOOOF. That’s . . . yeah, that’s going to be A Thing.

-(eta: I was going to change the last point given that THIS MOVIE IS SET IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR AND NOT THE SECOND, as I had assumed. But . . . man you really cannot shake that this is a villain who uses POISON GAS ON PEOPLE and is WORKING FOR THE GERMANS. Even changing it to pre-WWII that is still . . . YEAH, MY POINT STILL STANDS SO IT REMAINS)

-But really overall - thank you Patty Jenkins for understanding what I want from a movie generally.

-Gal Godot is a STAR and I cannot imagine anyone else playing Diana now.

-They never use the name “Wonder Woman” in the movie but they didn’t have to. Because everything about her onscreen inspires WONDER. What she says, what she does, how she looks. She is an inspiration and a hero. God.

-This is still the single best superhero movie that I have ever seen, warts and all. I expect to stand by that.

#Wonder Woman #Wonder Woman spoilers