Hiiiii! So, a few days ago you were talking about the whole thing with Amy, Rory, and River. And when I saw those posts a thought arose in my head and I wish to share it with you.
Since River grew up with Amy and Rory as Mels. And Mels was Amy's best friend do you think that they ever talked about children? Since I know that it can come up when talking with friends, and like... do you think that Amy might've ever expressed whether or not she wanted children?
And if she didn't, that Mels would've had to listen to her mother say that she doesn't want children? The idea is so heartbreaking and sooo interesting.
What do you think about it?
no, no, see, you're so right and this drives me wild.
because, the way i see it, i don't think amy wanted children. she's somewhere on the 'hasn't thought about it' to 'vaguely negative feelings about it happening' range to me, which falls sharply into 'Not Happening Ever Again' post-s6. (specifically, in terms of having a kid herself, even if she could, i really don't think she would. i do love that she and rory end up adopting a kid later, because that does make sense, for amy pond who grew up alone in one universe with her family swallowed by cracks in time before the doctor helped her set it right again, for her to want to make sure another child won't be alone in the world like she was. getting off-track here.)
and that's so. because the first real memory river/mels has of amy is of amy shooting at her. and depending on how well the silence fucked up the rest of her memory, it might be one of the very first memories she has at all. that's how she met her mother, crying for help and getting a bullet instead. her mother tried to kill her, so of course, you have to think. she must have needed to hear that she was wanted, right? even if she was taken away, even if amy shot her, at some point, melody must have been wanted?
river is good at getting people to do what she wants, but she is very, very bad at subtlety. and mels is younger, has less practice, so when she wants to know this, she's just going to ask. blunt and quick, easy enough because amy's used to the way mels will open her mouth and you just have to be ready to roll with what comes out if you want to keep up. it's why they're such good friends (like mother, like daughter.)
they're nine, and mels asks if amy wants kids, and amy wrinkles up her nose and says she won't have time for children, obviously, once her raggedy doctor finally comes back. they're fifteen, and amy and rory dance will they-won't they in a way that makes mels twitchy to watch, and taunting amy about wanting to have rory's babies is a good way to get on her nerves. but amy calls her gross, tells her she's got more life planned than children would leave room for, and besides, imagine her, a mom? it'd be a disaster.
mels does. a lot. she looks at her mother and just sees her best friend instead. she's not even sure what she wishes was there, but. maybe amy's right. and besides. imagine her, a daughter, instead of the ticking time bomb she really is? it'd be a disaster.
they're sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, and on. mels stands on the outside of a love story that births a universe. and her. how do you compete with that? not that she would know, not yet, she hasn't been there. but it doesn't make her feel any less alienated when amy and rory talk in whispers about a half-remembered world that's bled through to this life, about roman soldiers and boxes and the big bang of belief.
all these memories, they never mention children. on amy's wedding day, she's different, not like someone remembering a dream but someone who lived it. rory stands straighter, won't leave her side, and they're both so much older than they were yesterday. maybe now, right? a wedding's as good a time as any to decide you want kids.
mels not being at amy & rory's wedding is such an obvious lazy way of them trying to explain why they totally didn't just throw this plot twist together at the last minute that i'm not even going to acknowledge it. of course she was at their wedding. she's their best friend. there's too many people around the doctor, and she wasn't ready today of all days, so despite this horrible burning need under her skin to strike, she stays her hand. doesn't let him dance with her because she might just tear his throat out if he gets too close. stays with amy and rory as the maid of honor should. she must have been there for the awkward questions that always gets asked, 'so, any plans for a baby?' 'when am i getting grandkids?' 'oh, you two are going to have gorgeous children together.' standing a few feet from amy in her wedding dress and watching her mother tense and grit her teeth and brush off the questions. watching her look nervously at rory but never ask if he means it when his mom asks him if he'd prefer a son or a daughter, and rory answers 'either one, some day, not anytime soon.'
god i'm just going on and on, aren't i. but really, what's it like to know that amy never changed her mind. the next time she sees them, she's already been born and stolen. i don't like let's kill hitler for. so many reasons. but there is something compelling about how recklessly river lashes out at the world, at the doctor. even her sacrifice at the end is almost suicidal, throwing all her regenerations into this man without knowing if that will even work or if it might kill her to do it. but it makes more sense in the context of someone who has reached the end of a long, long wait for some kind of indication, any kind, that her mother wanted to have her. and finally been told, no. she didn't choose melody.
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Part two.... Damn this shit. Long as fuck not even done
Warabi: it's the coldest time of yeeeaarrr! But cod damn I'm so warm in siiioode! When you're close to me and you smile at me! My excitement has no place to hide!
Neta: Warabi
Warabi: while the kids are laughing and screaming and grandma starts to siiing! I pull you aside. A nice place to hide and I pulled out that. Platinum. diamond. ring!
Neta: Warabi please
Warabi: you quickly tried to denyyyy it and that smile. I see you hide it! I give you the best ooooon Frosty Fest cuz our love.is.stronger. than. allllll the rest!
Neta: I'm trying to drive
Warabi: baby take my hand and make me your man- Why'd you turn the radio off?
Neta:........... We're sitting in silence
Warabi: but....it's but it's frosty-
Neta: shut up! [Eating]
Warabi: Don't eat all of the salmon bites. Those are for the guests!!
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Mahi: holy shit. This place is huge.....it's bigger than the original store.
Baja: look he has two stories! Wow! I wonder what he's going to put up there!
Mahi: He said he wanted some sort of cafe lounge or something? This place is really fancy
Baja: Neta really went all out for this- *gasp* it's.. it's
Mahi: calm down. Take some breaths. Don't be fucking weird..... Hey ikkan you bought some wine I didn't know if it was a white wine or a red wine kind of party so I bought both..... Also this is Baja
Ikkan: thanks. You can just set them on the table over there. You must be Warabi's boyfriend he told me about you It's nice to see you.
Baja: Yes I've heard a lot about you. Not just like from TV and social media and the news. I mean but so has everyone else because you're very successful and famous. I'm sorry I'm rambling but Neta told me a lot about you and it's really nice to see you in person.
Ikkan: It's nice to see you too.... What model saxophone is that?
Baja: ... It's a shanty 44 model it's an Alto. Neta wanted me to bring it to play heheh.... It's the same model as your bassoon. It's a shanty 43 model you played it at the hard shell banquet hall at memorial service If your old high school band director 3 years back.
Ikkan: uh.... Yeah... That's.... Yeah that's correct. Wow ......how did he know that? That's very impressive you know a lot about music
Baja: Yeah it's mostly just history stuff.
Ikkan: That's really cool..... What do you usually play?
Baja: I was in jazz band and I also played an orchestra for the last two years of school
Ikkan: do you know how to play Funtime Frost?
Baja: yes
Ikkan: I'll be right back. I'm going to my car.
Baja: I think we're friends!
Mahi: you two are dorks. I'm going to set up the drinks
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Carrie: *gasp* Baja!! I knew you'd come! What do you think of my dress. Pretty isn't it? I usually don't wear light colors like cream or white, but it kind of felt special. I also bought my cello I was going to play it for you remember? but I was rudely interrupted by -... Oh It's just you.
Mahi: Yeah, it's good to see you too you little brat. Get on my way, Baja's over there. Also when Mizole shows up don't try anything. This is a big deal for your dad. I don't ruin it.
Cirrina: as if I would talk to him willingly.... Why is he even showing up? This party is supposed to be for important people. Not has beens like your boyfriend
Mahi: you know what!?!
Neta: Mahi do not fight with my daughter unless you want to be fired! Cirrina crab cakes please don't start fights with the adults. Okay? Show everyone at the party. What a sweet, pretty girl you are.
Cirrina: ok daddy.. ..Oh Bajaaaa! [Flips off mahi]
Neta: monster
Neta: awwww my baby's first crush... She's growing so fast they really do slip through your fingers......*sigh* anyway, everything is set up. Decorations are good... Drinks are all set... The waiters are setting up their trays...... Now we just need to wait for the people..... Baja?
Baja: I've already set up! ikkan's getting his bassoon right now! I can't believe I'm going to be playing with the Ikkan Kane! think I'm going to faint
Warabi: hey Mahi
Mahi: ooh those look good!
Warabi: No, you can't have any of these All right. I made 80 of these and Neta already ate five of them!
Neta: They're good!
Warabi: huff I made 40 cooked ones and 40 raw ones so we have options. DON'T eat all of the raw ones mahi! Save some for the actual guests and that goes for you too babe!
_____________________hour in the part____________
[live music playing over a crowd of people talking]
Pearl: you know when you said Frosty fast party. I thought you meant the ones you used to have at the boathouse.
Neta: Oh you mean the one when l passed on the floor in my own barf?
Pearl: Yeah those parties were fun hehehehe
Neta: getting too old for that now can't handle my liquor like I used to
Pearl: you couldn't hold your liquor back then either Jackass hahahahaahaha remember you get your hands stuck in the toilet hahahah we had to call the fire department hahahaha
Neta:heheheheh It was the party where you flashed the cops
Pearl: Yeah! I got one of the lady cops' numbers and after hehehe *sigh* good times..... Oh this is the Marina. She's my fiance
Marina: Hi, I've heard so much about you. I also saw you once in concert with squid squad! You're so talented! It's been honor to meet you actually
Neta: ahhh finally meeting you in person. I'm a big fan of you as well. I love the dress by the way you look great. Hope you're enjoying the party
Marina: I definitely am. This is such a gorgeous place and this is going to be your store?
Neta: Yes! We usually just sell music, merchandise, instruments.........concert tickets.
Marina: well That's interesting. Dance socks is actually starting another tour next year... Here is the number to our vendor they make most of our merchandise and I can see if I can contact 'ticket stand' and provide you access to our supply.
Neta:oh thanks!
Marina : We're going to refresh on some drinks and we'll catch up with you and talk about this little business later.......What is this about you flashing cops?
_______________________________________________
Baja: Yeah so father was actually an apprentice of ikkan's old band director he spent one year in Krillarney. He had to leave when you was born.
Zuzu: wow! That's true he lived in Krillarney for 5 years! How do you know that ?
Baja: It was in an old interview on subshellet I read. I think it was 7 years ago
Zuzu: hehehe I should hire you to write my memoir you seem to know a lot more about me than I do heheheh...... Hmmm
_______________________________________________
Mahi: *sigh*.....*sip*.... Mizole!! Hey over here! Hi babe. [Kiss]
Mizole: hey babe.. [ kiss] I got you a gift..... But it's in my freezer at home. You can't have until tomorrow Mahi I want you to meet wet floor. Guys, this is my partner Mahi.
Mahi: hay guys. Nice to meet you finally...
Wf Candi: He didn't cheat on you yet did he?
Mizole: Candi!!
Mahi: hahaha no!!!..... I hope not
Raley: Oh then he's probably loyal......probably cuz you would definitely know if he was cheating. He's a terrible liar
Mizole: what the hell!! I have never cheated on anyone!!!
Keaton: Yeah I have to back him up on that. He doesn't really cheat. He has ghosted people and never told them that he broke up with them before dating someone else
Mizole: but this time it's fucking different!!. I actually like this one! Mahi makes me happy and I want to see them happy!
Mahi: oh.... mizole.
Mizole: and you know what?? for our one year anniversary that's in a couple months I'm going allllll out! Take them on a trip or some shit! That's how much I care for my partner.
Neil: well I for one am happy you actually found someone that you like.
Mizole: thank you Neil
Neil: I'm more surprised they like you back
Mizole:..........
Mahi: hehehe .. I'm going to go get some food. You hang out with your friends and be nice to each other and I'll be right back and -oh shit. Sorry man I wasn't looking where I was.......... Why the fuck are you here?
_______________________________________________
Mahi and Baja ate all of the raw salmon bites before anyone else could get them and @fish-at-fish-fish-resort Saw the whole thing and didn't say anything
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I keep thinking of that reply in my Odysseus/Agamemnon post about how I regard differently Odysseus' and Agamemnon's actions, while acknowledging that at times Agamemnon is written as a sweet man and Odysseus is always straight up shitty, and how it was taken as some sort of defense for Agamemnon and as a form of pointing out the double standard; and that wasn't at all what the post was about for me, even though I can see where they were coming from. To be honest, given I didn't imagine it would spread anywhere other than my own blog, I didn't explain myself very well (or at all).
The fact is that when I talked about Odysseus not caring about hurting someone else's child to start and end a war I was indeed comparing his actions to Agamemnon's, but my words about supporting Odysseus' wrongs and cheering him in his terrible actions, while in a joking tone, weren't entirely a joke. I do think that Odysseus does some very shitty acts, and some quite terrible ones depending on the sources. That's a fact, that he does is at the core of his characterisation and it's what makes him so much fun; but not even when he is at his most cruel does he harm his family, his own son. Agamemnon, while sweet and loving at times in some texts, at his worst is willing to sacrifice Iphigenia. When readers regard with more sympathy Odysseus over Agamemnon despite both being responsible for children dying, I don't think there's a double standard in this aspect at all considering it's never his own kid Odysseus harms. And that's the key, I think.
Odysseus and Agamemnon have very different priorities, a very different view on loyalty and duty. It could be said that Agamemnon acts out of selfishness, but it could also be read in a kinder light, saying that Agamemnon is ruled by the gods first, and by his role as head of the achaeans; Agamemnon is not entirely himself. In opposition we see Odysseus acting perhaps mainly for himself and his own family and men; yes, he is a king, but he has not the role Agamemnon has. As a consequence, Agamemnon submits his family's wellbeing to the war, to the gods, while Odysseus stops the plow before hurting Telemachus but is (depending on the source) the cause of Iphigenia's sacrifice and Astyanax's death.
Both Odysseus and Agamemnon have reasons to support their actions, and both can be sympathised with; it's fiction after all. When it comes to fiction, at the end of the day which character a reader is drawn to or sympathises with is mainly an issue of personal taste, but I suppose it also implies a certain level of one's own views or preferences on morals, what makes us find certain actions more justifiable, or tasteful (perhaps that's a more accurate word), than others. Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter, no matter how sympathetic or understandable the reason, generally sits worse on people than Odysseus doing the same with someone else's kids, because they're someone else's. This different emotional reaction they provoke has place not just metanarratively, but also inside the very story; it is narratively significant, given it determines how their arrival home plays out, how their wives react to them, and thus their futures. Ultimately it determines whether they live or die.
I think both terrible acts go in line wonderfully with each characterisation, showcasing the role they hold in their world, what they value, what they care for, what they're willing to sacrifice for themselves and the others, how much of their own they're willing to give and bend. While looking at the wider picture it could perhaps be drawn that Agamemnon is the better person out of the two, but Odysseus' selfish actions are perhaps easier to empathise with, especially from a modern viewpoint. Odysseus is treacherous and prone to betrayal, but not against his own; Agamemnon follows the rules of the gods. How fitting in that context that Odysseus doesn't die at the end of his story, that he cheats the death heroes so often are fated to, almost as if cheating the narrative itself, bending the rules of the world he is ascribed to; how fitting in the context of those texts that point towards Sisyphus being his father. But that's another topic, and I've already talked a lot.
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