#Kyle defense arc over it’s time for me to defend Stan with all of my fucking heart

[roostertuftart]

Anyway have I mentioned how much I fucking love older Stan

Can people stop saying he turned into Randy/is a worse version of him though??

Stan is undeniably far less friendly and charismatic than Randy. But from what we’ve seen, he is a far better person. He’s more down to earth, smarter, just generally seems to be more moral and have more regard for others. I’m not saying he’s perfect- and his desperation to run from things in his past is really unhealthy, but ugh idk.

I think I just appreciate that the show really seemed to intentionally NOT make Stan another Randy and seeing people act like they’re the same is annoying me.

Also, I guess it’s the conflation of nice and good that gets me as well. They’re not the same. Randy is very nice to most people, but he’s not good. Stan isn’t very nice, and while I would argue we haven’t seen enough of him to decide whether or not he’s a good person, he’s certainly not as bad as Randy, and if anything, the show really seems to be pushing for this idea that he’s a little bit like a mix between both of his parents. Either way, I highly doubt he’s going to end up ever being shown to be as toxic as his father even if he’s sometimes a selfish dick, and I am 100% sure he’d never have treated his son the way Randy did after the fire had the roles been reversed.

#Kyle defense arc over it’s time for me to defend Stan with all of my fucking heart #Stan marsh #South Park post covid #is this meta?

[south-park-meta]

why do you think cartman is abusing stan? they get along ok

I think Cartman's abusive towards everyone with Kyle and Butters getting the worst of it. But I have come around more to the way Cartman's abusive to Stan than when I made my initial analysis of their relationship. I said there that Cartman attacked things that mostly Stan's not bothered by, and some of that's true. Like, attacking him for caring about animals isn't something that affects him very often.

But with that said, there IS a core of attacking Stan for (lacking) masculinity and that actually does seem to be something he's anxious about...just not to Cartman directly. Cartman regularly calls him a pussy, gay, weak, seeming like a girl. The Cissy is probably the best example of the name-calling because it encompasses basically all of it

Do you know your girlfriend's going around tellin' everyone that you're gay?! [Stan looks around] Oh yeah! She's got the whole school believin' that she's attracted to girls, but she's dating you! So what does that make you, Stan?! A girl! STAN-AN'S A GIR-RL! You'd better curb your dog, Stan! You'd better curb your dog before people start ripping on you!

He tells Stan he's too weak to control his girlfriend, that he's gay, and that he's a girl all at once. Stan actually has a reaction (looking around, looking nervous, and he does end up talking to his dad and Principal Victoria. Cartman GOT a reaction, just not one he wanted).

The thing is, Stan's masculinity IS the thing he's most defensive of, and is his 'weak point' in relation to Kyle being Jewish, Kenny being poor, Butters being naive. He gets nervous about seeming gay and has to overcome it. He does get ripped on/ name-called/dismissed for not being manly enough or seeming gay by both his uncle, who he looks up to, and his dad, who he does (for most of the show) have a mutually loving relationship with. MOST of the 'Stan has a moment of character growth in the way of accepting who he is' comes down to him being okay with shirking stereotypical masculinity. Cartman is a master at honing in on weaknesses and he ABSOLUTELY has Stan's down.

So, then, why doesn't Cartman really tear the shit out of him more?

The thing is that Stan doesn't rise to the bait in angry outbursts. Kyle does. Kenny does, sometimes, too. Butters is specifically dismissed as a Kyle punching bag replacement because he doesn't. But Cartman also can't just casually abuse him constantly the way he does Butters, or put Stan's dick in his mouth while he sleeps, or give him a poop moustache, because Stan would up and leave the friendship, or actually physically beat him up. It has to be a verbal or emotional, non-physical attack. Stan doesn't get ripped on by Cartman more because he doesn't tend to take the bait in a way that would be fun and would let Cartman continue to feed off of it and really tear him to pieces.

So why doesn't Stan take the bait? Is he not upset by it?

The thing is he DOES get upset about this kind of thing. He just tends not to confront it directly. Instead he tends to want to compensate for the accusations. He tries to force Sparky to be straight. He doesn't play along at the wild west show because Wendy's there. He shoots and kills Skuzzlebutt. He becomes hypercritical of Gary and chews him out for Mormonism. And in each and every one of these cases, the best choice is consistently for him not to worry about seeming like anything except what he is. I think The Cissy is a step forward for him in, instead of outright denying who he is, he just sits down and questions it instead. Personally I think there hasn't been another comment on it since he came to the conclusion he is a boy (I know there're nb headcanons for him and I won't pick at it too much because I don't think it runs contrary to his character per se, I just don't agree with it. I see it as more of another masculinity introspection than really specifically a gender one), but I think it's a step forward for his character growth. He has multiple times gone through an arc of 'hide who you are, then realize who you are is really an asset', and sometimes that gets to a point of 'fuck what people think' but often it just kind of is what it is and he doesn't really do anything with it. He still cares about not being manly enough, and often the lesson of it is 'yeah you ARE kind of a pussy but it's fine, people will like you anyway, or being a pussy is beneficial to helping people'. While the recent seasons have made Stan more depressed and miserable, he's also FINALLY starting to get to a point of-- instead of worrying what makes other people like him, what makes him an asset to other people-- 'What makes me like myself? What makes me who I am?'

ANYWAY with all that said, the reason Cartman doesn't get much out of moments like this is that Stan often doesn't have a reaction, period. Sometimes it's because he probably literally doesn't care. He doesn't always value Cartman's opinion, and he does seem able to let a lot of comments go as just being bullshit. The other thing is that if it actually gets to the point of GETTING a reaction, it's not one that would be fun for Cartman. Literally the only thing that's ever come out of Stan reacting to the insecurity that Cartman harps on (whether because of Cartman or not) is that he either suppresses or questions it, and decides he likes himself more as he was to start with. Like he very consistently has improved himself through being criticized on this very point.

So does he have a point that Cartman can hurt him on?

Absolutely, and that point is Kyle.

Stan consistently has stronger, more hurt, more violent reactions to Cartman when it's Kyle that Cartman's going after. When Cartman makes a comment that Kyle's going to die, Stan tells him not to say things like that (even though people regularly die or talk about death around them). When Cartman's treating Kyle unfairly and Kyle can't do anything about it himself, Stan rights it. Even when Stan and Kyle aren't getting along, multiple seasons after Stan told Kyle that he was destroying the last thread of friendship they had left by siding with Cartman in the GOT arc, he still takes tit-for-tat revenge on Cartman in Band in China for Kyle's sake.

The way to get Kyle to respond in a fun way is for Cartman to attack Kyle.

The way to get Stan to respond in a fun way is for Cartman to attack Kyle.

I think it's noteworthy that when Cartman checks out on the 'broship' it's after Stan has checked out on Kyle, and pointedly stayed out of Kyle's fight with Cartman even after Kyle asked him to get involved with it. It's not worth keeping Stan tied in to the group because he's not coming to Kyle's defense, so there's no fun to be had in Stan hanging around. It's ALSO noteworthy that Kyle is equally blindsided by both of them.

But, okay, Cartman is nice to Stan sometimes. He's probably nicer to him than he is pretty much any other character. I think Cartman was playing a balancing act and lost.

He wants Stan and Kyle to be friends, because their friendship is important to get them both riled up. But he wants himself to be the most important to both of them, and that means he HAS to knock them down a peg in each other's opinions. They need to be friends with each other, good enough friends that Stan wants to defend Kyle when Cartman's mean to him and Kyle can't defend himself. It's no fun if Kyle's literally defenseless and Cartman gets jack for a reaction. But they have to be best friends with Cartman, because Cartman has a massive ego. This is a pretty damn hard line to walk.

But here are some nice things that Cartman's done for Stan:

-He came and hung out with him on Tegridy, and had solo activities bonding with him through board games and things like that.

-He helped Stan with the drug ring in Hummels and Heroin

-He saved the pangolin

The first two things are a clear spit in Kyle's face. Kyle is the core group who seems most disconnected from what's going on on Tegridy. Cartman is very clearly trying to take Kyle's place as Stan's go-to. Around(ish, keeping in mind the show's internal timeline) the same time, through the GOT arc, he is focusing his attention on bonding with Kyle.

Likewise, Kyle tells Stan outright he's not going to help with the Hummels problem in the second case. Cartman gets involved because Stan says he 'needs' him. He's willing to help because it puts him in direct competition with Kyle; he's helping Stan when Kyle told him to figure it out himself. He is weasling in on the best friend role.

In the last case, I think it's because he still wanted the 'broship' to work, and like I said I think he did up until Stan gave up on his friendship with Kyle. Stan's having a complete mental breakdown, which would cause issues and not be enjoyable on Cartman's end, so he'll give him a bone and let him maintain his sanity so Cartman can keep having fun pitting Stan and Kyle against each other while being besties with them both. He just flew too close to the sun and lost with it because Stan was teetering on the edge for the friendship since YGO and the next episode pushed him over.

In conclusion, Cartman's actions with Stan are 100% meant to manipulate him and emotionally destroy him. It just happens that Stan takes attacks on himself pretty internally and might even come out stronger for it. So for the most part if everything else is going fine, he's a tough nut to crack. The stuff that really fucks him up and tears him apart mentally is attacking Kyle, or attacking his friendship with Kyle.

#long post