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fate-motif · 9 months

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here's the character traits i think predisposes characters in the jigsaw franchise to get brainwashed by jigsaw and become a jigsaw killer themselves:

they have to believe that they did something wrong, and that they atoned for it when jigsaw tested them

they have to be already somewhat comfortable making life or death decisions for other people

we all know pee-paw's self-help seminar from hell isn't just an alleged self-help seminar, but doubles as retributive justice in case the person fails (in his eyes). so whoever is offered to join up with jigsaw has to be comfortable with both sides of the ideological operation in play. it's not enough that they were severely traumatized and have a hole in their lives that they could fill by being part of this cult, though those things really predisposes them for the brainwashing. multiple characters were targeted to join the jigsaw movement and did not feel the vibe, so i think i have it isolated to these two traits.

further thoughts under the cut

how we see this in the apprentices

this puts all three main character mainline franchise jigsaw apprentices in a very clear light, really. amanda thinks john helped her overcome her addiction and redeemed her for the things she did as an addict. lawrence acknowledges how he neglected his family and took them for granted so hard that he cut off his foot for them even though there was no guarantee they would be alive when he got out. hoffman is perhaps the one that feels he owes john the least (since he at least partially came in on the scheme purely through blackmail) but considering his intense passion for brutally punishing the guilty i think it's safe to say john testing him jolted him out of the apathetic, drunken stupor he had been living in since his sister was killed, and that he thinks that's a good thing.

(your mileage may vary as to whether logan nelson blamed himself for john's cancer going undetected, but as a coroner he seems to take his job extremely seriously. if john sparing his life caused him to take action in appreciating his life in any way, i think it's fair to say that it got him to give his everything when at work.)

and as for the life or death decision making for others, it's crystal clear at least to me why the people that joined up did. two are doctors and one is a cop. these are professions where making life or death decisions for others is required, even if you're doing everything you can to save someone's life. amanda isn't either a cop or a doctor but having been an ex-con i think it's safe to say the high risk environment may have predisposed her to feel more comfortable taking decisions that may lead to someone's death.

and it's not really a coincidence that it's cops and doctors, either. both policing and healthcare are embedded in the themes of the saw franchise. john kramer thinks jigsaw is a doctor that doubles as a cop; healing a sickness if the patient is worthy, killing them if they aren't. that's why i think a lot of traps that people like to claim 'don't work' because the players aren't being tested for a flaw or misdeed still suit the jigsaw ethos perfectly. because pee-paw may act high and mighty but what matters most to him is the retributive justice aspect of the traps. and this is the same for all his apprentices as well.

except for brad and ryan, really, but they're more than anything victims of saw 3d's rushed writing. they're only there to help lawrence stop hoffman, since a disabled oncologist might struggle to take down the armed and dangerous cop turned serial killer. even then i can sort of squint and see those two as thanking jigsaw for intervening on letting this one woman ruin their friendship and make them commit crimes when she didn't value them. the atoning aspect, weak as it is, may be complimented by the fact that jigsaw just netted himself a couple of honest-to-god psychopaths because they didn't look even a little remorseful to have to kill their girlfriend when they reached their truce. oh, well.

but what i like about my conclusions is that they really explain why the victims who were set up to be brainwashed failed

not every jigsaw game victim would make a good apprentice

yes, up front: john kramer has lost his mind when he thinks anyone would ever want to join his sick little crusade. most people do not want to kill and can't find killing in most capacities to be vile. also most people's reactions after being tortured would be to immediately try and attack their torturer. and yet the madman actually netted three people to help him out. it's such an insanely lucky number, really, proven by the fact that hoffman tries to recruit two cops and fails.

two cops. one of them had engaged in police brutality, let a colleague cover for him, and respected and defended colleagues that engaged in it. the other one may have been a little too classy to punch suspects in the face, but the way he treats jill tuck speaks to the opposite of any respect for people's dignity. both of them are fine murdering jigsaw game victims who were only attacking under the extreme circumstanced they were in! and yet they didn't even hesitate when hoffman tried to sell them on the life of being jigsaw, the ultimate policeman!

because neither of them thought they had anything to atone for.

while rigg has an entire library of things to atone for, what hoffman wants him to regret and feel bad for is letting his desire to save people affect the people around him. maybe if hoffman had any kind of emotional intelligence he could have pitched his traps to make him consider his actions on others, but instead all his arguments came down to 'look at these weak, pathetic people. they're sick, deep down, so it doesn't matter if they die when we torture them'. which rigg was never going to believe. he saw his desire to save people as innately good and unchangeable, which is correct, of course. it's just that the actions he takes are absolutely hopeless to actually save anyone in hoffman's eyes, because that desire makes him careless but in mine because policing saves no one. so of course he could never have become a jigsaw killer, because his traps did not make him think he had something to atone for.

as for strahm, hoffman didn't even bother brainwashing him, and that's why obviously he was never going to get in that coffin. the water cube trap was a straightforward execution. strahm had already seen a jigsaw trap mutilate perez for no reason other than to get them off his trail. by the time he reaches the coffin there was nothing in the world that could have convinced strahm to join hoffman.

it really speaks to how far gone and twisted hoffman is that in either of these cases, especially strahm's, hoffman thought there would be a chance either of them would even think about joining forces with him.

could any other jigsaw victims have made good apprentices?

i have a couple of ideas.

before we get to the candidates i'm going to address the apprentice adam angle, because it's a common au and everyone loves adam and wants him to be alive. also because it's a fun angle for chainshipping. this is your opening to send me chainshipping fanworks where larry tries to brainwash adam into joining him! but as it stands in canon i don't think adam would have found it in him to join the serial killers because he's not the kind of guy with a developed killer instinct. yes, he's depressed and suicidal in the original script. yes, the bathroom game makes him say out loud he wants to stop taking his family for granted. but he killed zepp in the very urgent scenario of trying to stop zepp from shooting lawrence, and i don't think he has it in him to deliberately put people in torture games where it's very likely they'll die. especially since, before jigsaw, adam had never met anyone he would actually find it in him to kill on purpose. though neither had lawrence, so i will give the adam apprentice girlies a point there.

the writers of the first movie say that zepp was having a blast when he kidnapped gordon’s family so he’s clearly he’s got the killer instinct needed for the job. the problem is that even john would be able to tell by a glance that zepp wouldn’t be able to stop himself from indiscriminately harming people as opposed to using violence for their ideological leanings. there’s a reason he was poisoned instead of merely asked to join. so while a rare find in that he might have already been primed to be a serial killer already, we all know john loves his delusion of doing violence for a higher purpose and zepp would ruin that illusion very quickly.

the only candidates i think would have been perfect otherwise would be brit and mallick from the fatal five. i've mentioned this before but they feel like they've atoned for their crimes through their game and were delusionally euphoric by the end of it. and so long as the victims chosen were on the scummier end of things, i could see both of them prompted into villainy.

you know who else got prompted into villainy? brett abbott. which is kind of insane to say considering he's a kid and i feel for him even though he did literally murder a man. it's just very hard for me to hate a kid suffering under institutional injustices even though he let that suffering out through murder. but all i'm saying is that under the right trap brett and the fatal five survivors were the more ideal candidates for apprenticeship... if only john was there.

yeah. hoffman doesn't have it in him to coax anyone into anything. he's a homemade nail bomb, not a leader. he would probably even dismiss brit and mallick right off the bat over their now missing hands, and you can't tell me he would have the patience to groom a teenager like brett. amanda and lawrence are also not exactly winning in the charm department. so really once the cult's charismatic leader kicked the bucket their way of life was doomed to eat itself from the inside out.

which is exactly what happened.

... don't ask me to think very hard about anyone in jigsaw because i've forgotten 95% of that movie

#saw franchise #saw x #jigsaw killer #john kramer #amanda young #mark hoffman #lawrence gordon #logan nelson #jill tuck #adam faulkner stanheight #adam faulkner #adam stanheight #brit stevenson #mallick scott #daniel rigg #peter strahm #brett abbott #tara abbott

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domonicriley · 1 month

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#sherlock holmes #sherlock #bbc sherlock #benedict cumberbatch #jeremy brett #ian mckellen #robert downey jr #henry cavill #peter cushing #basil rathbone #mr holmes #holmes #polls #tumblr polls

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ebony1442 · 5 months

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I sometimes feel that Jeremy Brett and David Suchet have cursed me to never enjoy other actors' portrayals of their respective Great Detectives. I love Robert Downey, Jr., but he is not Holmes; he is a pulp action hero version of Holmes, whirling through melees and explosions that Holmes would have predicted and let Lestrade resolve with the combined might of Scotland Yard. Branagh and Ustinov are geniuses, but they are too comfortable in the world to be the fussy little Belgian. They lack the discomfort with the messiness of the day-to-day that Suchet imparts in every gesture. (Poirot does not _chase_ the fleeing villain on foot, Msr. Branagh; that is what Japp and Hastings are for.)

Despite this, though, I enjoy the other visions of Holmes and Poirot. They show that even such iconic, important archetypal characters can be re-interpreted and show some new and fun.

#sherlock holmes #hercule poirot #jeremy brett #robert downey jr #david suchet #peter ustinov #kenneth branagh

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holmesxwatson · 5 months

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“i just wanna do what Jeremy Brett did when he played Sherlock Holmes on tv, show a little humanity”

guys i made my first fanvid, i don’t know if it’s any good but i had fun. and i’m excited for folks to hear this “Jeremy Brett” song that is one of my faves

“Jeremy Brett” by John Peter and His Collaborators (x)

#sherlock holmes #granada holmes #jeremy brett #john peter and his collaborators #sh music #sh fanvid #me

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the-demon-cycle · 1 year

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#Fanart #Arlen #The Demon Cycle #demon cycle #Peter V Brett #peter brett

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hxney-lemcn · 4 months

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Dream a Little Dream of Me

summery: reader ponders their feelings.

tw: angst.

a/n: okay so...this is my first time writing a generic fic, in which I mean you can imagine whatever character you want. So uh...I hope I did this right. Also, listen to 'Dream a Little Dream of Me' by Karen Fukuhara. It's *chefs kiss*

wc: 0.4k

Master List

“Stars shining bright above you Night breezes seem to whisper, I love you Birds singin’ in the sycamore trees Dream a little dream of me”

Rain drizzled, gently pattering against the windows. I watched as the clear drops raced down. My brain was racing yet it was blank all the same. That growing pit in my chest ached as I listened to that familiar bittersweet tune. I loved to listen to it, yet it always brought me into a somber trance. The gloomy weather only seemed to add to my mood.

“Say nighty-night and kiss me Just hold me tight and tell me you’ll miss me While I’m alone and blue as can be Dream a little dream of me”

I frowned. I understood that longing feeling. Being alone and wishing for someone to love you. Although the singer is singing about their lover, my mind wandered to who I was crushing on. The thought of him kissing me, the thought of him holding me and asking me to stay with him, it loosened that hollow feeling just a little.

I had been pining over him for so long, it was starting to hurt. The pattering of my heart when he smiled at me so handsomely, started to ache. The warm flush that I used to bask in that he’d always manage to cause, started to grow cold. The usual happiness I felt when I’d look at him turned bitter. Yet no matter how much it hurt, I still found myself falling for his charms. The bitterness would leave, if only for a little while in his presence, only for it to come crashing down when he was gone.

“Stars fading but I linger on dear Still craving your kiss Now I’m longin’ to linger till dawn dear Just saying this”

There was no one to blame but myself. I had spent so long dwelling on my feelings, on pretending like they weren’t there, that it started to warp. I was by his side for so long, that it felt like he overlooked me, that if I were to disappear from his life, that he wouldn’t even notice.

The answer to my problems seemed easy on surface level. Just confess, get these feelings off my chest and be done with the whole deal. Yet, after this long, he hadn’t noticed. He hadn’t noticed how my gestures ran deeper than just friendly. How I dropped everything to make sure he was okay. Not only that, but he hadn’t hinted at liking me back. We were just friends, and even if it hurts, I don’t want to lose that. Because I care for him as a person, and if he’s happy, then that’s all I could ask for.

“Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you Sweet dreams that leave all worries behind you But in your dream whatever they be Dream a little dream of me Dream a little dream of me”

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allhalesterekstilinski · 9 months

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I want to talk about the Teen Wolf siblings, particularly their age differences.

Brett is a freshman in season 4. We don’t know how old Lori is, but later she says Brett only accepted the scholarship at Devenford if they would accept her as well. This means either Devenford includes some middle school as well as high school, Lori was smart enough to skip a grade or two, Brett and Lori are 9 months apart, or they’re twins. It’s also possible she’s a couple years younger and was only recently accepted, but since he bargained for her from the beginning, I don’t think it’s as likely.

Based on the short audio clips from “Motel California” it sounds like Boyd and Alicia were close in age, both pretty young, but when we see her body she looks a little older. I would assume he’s older since he was in charge of watching her.

Malia and Kylie were close in age based on the framed photo in her room. In “Ghosted” Kylie has mysteriously aged from about 7 to about 12. Though this is likely due to forgetting information and not caring enough to fact check their own work.

The same could be said for Theo and Tara. They seem to be close in age, but the actresses playing Tara look like different ages. I would guess in season 5 flashbacks she was 11 or 12 when Theo was 9, but in season 6 she looks 17.

Isaac is 16 in season 2 and Camden would have been 24. There is a discrepency unless I’m missing something. Since season 2 is early in the year I’m willing to bet Camden would be 25 later in the year. If Isaac is 16 and Camden would be 24, that’s an 8 year gap. But if he graduated in 2006, he was born in 1988 and is approximately 6 years older. There’s no concrete evidence of when either of their birthdays are, so perhaps Isaac’s birthday is before Camden’s and there’s a short period of time the gap is 7 years. The calendar puts his birthday in February.

Kate said that growing up Chris always tried to make her look like the bad guy. In 3B Chris says he was 18-years-old 24 years ago putting Chris’s birth year about 1969. Kate was born in 1983. That is a 14 year gap. Either she exaggerated or lied, which I would believe, or Chris was an incredibly shitty brother, which I would also believe. Could you imagine 17 year old Chris blaming 3 year old Kate for him coming home late one night or breaking their mom’s favorite vase?

We don’t know how old Gerard is. Alexander was 27 when he died. Alexander was 19/20 years older than Chris, so Gerard was probably in his early to mid twenties when Chris was born. A lot of actors’ ages coincide with their character’s approximate age. Michael Hogan was born in 1949, so if Gerard is around his age, he’s 20 years older than Chris and 34 years older than Kate. But then he would one year older than Alexander. Not impossible, but he is likely older.

Hayden is about 16 in season 5 because she can drive. The youngest a cop can be is 20, so at the very least Clark is 4 years older. It sounds like Clark had been her guardian for a while, so the gap is likely larger.

If we are going to believe the “In Memorium” video from MTV, Laura was born in 1982 and Peter was born in 1976. We never actually know how old Derek is. Jeff said his ID, putting his birthday in November 1988, was fake, but why? What is the significance of it being fake? It served no purpose and I think Jeff just wanted to fuck with us. Especially because it’s not canon in the show, he said it outside of the show. And if we believe the calendar that makes Derek a Christmas baby, why would he make himself only a month and a half older?

I’m going to assume Derek was “with” Kate leading up closely to the fire, meaning late 2004. If Derek was 16, or almost 16 if his birthday is Christmas, that would put his birthday in 1988. So in the pilot he’s 22. In the script he was meant to be 19 but then he was aged up because Jeff thought it was more important to traumatize him than find a way around it. In 3A Cora says she’s 17, which would put them at a 5 year gap. Laura is 6 years older than Derek and 11 years older than Cora. And if Cora was 11 by January of 2005, she was born in 1993.

I don’t know if this is canon or fanon that Talia raised Peter. Regardless, he is about 5 years older than Laura, 12 years older than Derek, and 17 years older than Cora. But Talia would have to be at the youngest 8 years older than Peter, and that’s if she had Laura at 13. In “Visionary” she appears to be about mid-forties. If this is within a year of the fire, then Peter is 26/27. The gap between Peter and Talia could range from 8 to 20 years.

I’m just so interested in these dynamics.

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