#Stop dismissing canon queer ships please...

[welivetodream]

BSD and Shipping

Since Valentine's day was coming I was interested in discussing a huge part of the BSD fandom: Shipping

( ⚠️ RANT INCOMING. DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED ABOUT OPINIONS ON SHIPPING. PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL TOWARDS OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS IN COMMENTS AND REBLOGS. ⚠️)

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So where to start?

For a long time I have been noticing one specific trend in the BSD subreddit. And that are posts that talk about unpopular opinions/Headcanons/fav or least fav ships etc.

What I find interesting about these posts is that one thing is always in the forefront, and it's the debates about the sexualities of the characters in BSD. While Headcanons can be annoying and some people do push their opinions on others, there is nuance that is lacking in the community when discussing some topics. Finding posts about Mori being a pedo and how Dazai is unlikable or overrated is very easy and the discussions surrounding topics like that are always the same. People would pick sides and end up writing a lot about what their opinion is and while that's valid, it also ends up in fandom wars where it's hard to like or dislike something without your head being in the chopping block.

Now let's go to the original topic: shipping. To examine the environment of shipping culture in BSD fandom we have to start with the headcanons that people have adopted for sexualities of the characters.

1. THE PROBLEM WITH HETRO-NORMATIVITY

Now, the posts about shipping often contain a lot of people writing paragraphs and paragraphs about what ships they like or dislike.

One of the ships that takes the most bullets for its existence and popularity is Soukoku or Shin Soukoku. There are lots of comments about these ships that "remind" us that canonically Dazai, Chuuya, Atsushi and Akutagawa are all straight. They should not be shipped with each other because they are straight.....

Dazai flirts with women and wants to commit a double suicide with a beautiful woman. Atsushi is very clearly set up to end up with Lucy. Akutagawa couldn't care less about romance as we see how dismissive he is with Higuchi. And Chuuya.......wears fashionable outfits and has a slutty waist, but we won't comment on that.

Dazai and Chuuya have a lot of queer subtext that anyone can see. Akutagawa and Atsushi are pointed out to complete each other and complement each other several times. These ships don't exist out of thin air.

Now there is nothing WRONG with anyone having the headcanon of any of these (or any other) characters to be straight, after all we are not given enough information about their sexualities. But by stating "Dazai is straight, he likes women" or "this ship doesn't make sense because they are not gay" not only does it imply that characters can't have other preferences but also that being straight is the default, which it isn't.

This is coming from a straight woman from a very conservative country where we don't have exposure to queer media. It took me a long time to stop being so heteronormative. I think assuming someone is straight until they prove to you or tell you directly is just as bad and as assuming someone is gay. I think we have come far along as a community to understand that it shouldn't be our first instinct to assume everything is heterosexual until we get some sort of proof or stamp of approval from its creator.

Asagiri isn't going to stand up in a stage in front of the world and say "yeah Dazai and Chuuya have gay feelings for eachother" because the manga is from Japan. If there were explicit queer characters then BSD would no longer get the label of being universal because of certain censorship laws. Even if it's getting more acceptable in Japan to show queer characters in manga and anime, BSD isn't a romance or slice of life story. It's a seinen, not a BL/GL. Besides, Asagiri shows little to no interest in romantic relationships in his story.

So by saying "______ character is straight because we don't have any other information proving otherwise " isn't a valid excuse to tell shippers not to ship certain characters, it's making it seem like heterosexuality is the default state of being.

That also doesn't mean you can say "Dazai is gay, don't ship him with women" because that's the same thing. If you think Dazai is gay/bi/pan/etc. then that's your opinion, pushing that on others only worsens the rep of skk shippers especially.

You have the right to like or dislike certain ships or have your own Headcanons. This is why even feminising certain characters also isn't as problematic as people call it. It's just a different take on a character (but that time people were correcting those who called Sigma a "he" instead of "they" was genuinely wrong). Headcanons of some random online stranger doesn't make anything canon. So if you find yourself around annoying people like that, just leave the conversation.

2. WHY SUBTEXT MATTERS

Subtext is really important when discussing media; in case of BSD whether it is the anime, manga, anthologies or LNs. BSD is not new to subtext, even from the start of the story there is a lot of queer subtext that people can figure out easily.

When we are introduced to Dazai and Chuuya's partnership in the first season, it's clear as day to see the dynamic and its underlying tension. We can see how close those two are that their relationship can't be explained just as simple partners turned enemies. Time and time again we get so much queer subtext between Skk's interactions. The entire 15 arc and well as Stormbringer shows us the bond and trust between the two as well as the intense amount of gay scenes. At this point I am sure Hoshikawa is a hardcore skk shipper. All of their official art is also gay (that could be queerbating though). Asagiri must know what the public thinks about Skk and still writes subtext about them. It makes sense why this would be a popular ship; it's not made out of thin air with no context (*ahem* Kousano *ahem*) but has actual roots and the proof to back it up too.

SSKK is a similar story, it's not my favourite but it has been growing on me ever since S5. Similar to skk, we get a lot of subtext and homoerotic moments between Aku and Atsushi. They are yin and yang. They are enemies that sought to kill eachother but still team up to fight together. Atsushi is literally the centre of Akutagawa's life since the beginning. Atsushi and Akutagawa grow together as characters and as different as they appear are similarly looking for one thing: validation and acceptance. Their relationship is so compelling in so many levels that it too makes sense why their ship is as popular as it is (especially regarding recent events in the story)

Ranpoe.....let's be real, those two got married a long time ago. They are the definition of "be gay, solve crimes". They are undeniably a cute ship regardless of whether it's one sided or not. Fyolai as well makes complete sense with the context behind Fyodor and Nikolai's relationship, while I also consider it quite one-sided as it's mostly Nikolai that is fascinated by Fyodor (and wants to kiss kill him) Fukumori isn't my cup of tea but it too has enough subtext to back it up, same with FukuFuku.

While I would love to talk about other ships, I wanted to show the reasoning behind the most popular pairings.

Personally, as a multishipper, it's very fun for me to have so many characters to examine and spend time obsessing over.

Now, there are straight ships that I like too as well as ships I don't ship for myself.

The reason I don't like Yosano and Ranpo together is because I see them in the same position as Kyouka and Atsushi. The scene of Ranpo recruiting Yosano (who worked with Mori) into the ADA parallels Atsushi saving Kyouka (who also worked with Mori). I consider them siblings and like how they are platonic instead of it being the typical "a boy and girl can't be besties". Another ship I love and cherish is AtsuLucy because it's so adorable, Lucy is my fav Guild member and her and Atsushi are "Girlboss and Malewife". I ship Tachihara with Gin, Higuchi and Gin as well as Kunikida with Yosano (surprisingly I don't find the appeal of Kunizai; though I still like that ship from time to time, just don't ship it actively). I prefer not to ship Sigma with anyone (he is still a baby to me)

So it's not that BSD doesn't have straight ships, when you make a majority male cast and have them be rivals or enemies, obviously people will ship m/m more. Especially if there is more subtext and tension behind the male characters and they have little to no interactions with women.

And I might get some heat for saying this:

It is okay for most of the BSD characters to be considered queer because if comp het is so normal in anime/manga then why can't the opposite be the case? We already have enough series with little to no representation, so why can't we have a bunch of queer characters?

3. TOXIC SHIPPERS AND THE FALL OF FANDOM CULTURE

I have been raving for the past two sections and defending the shipping community. But it isn't a conversation with nuance if I don't address the problem of a small group of people that take shipping too seriously. The reason why fandom itself gets a bad rep is because of shipping more often than not. I will admit, it's not all sunshine and rainbows when people argue about their fav ships. And a lot of the aforementioned ships are to a point, toxic. Yes, some shippers are annoying and ruin everyone else's fun. There are ships that don't make sense at all.

But that doesn't mean that a small part of people should represent others who are just having harmless fun and don't even believe their ships to ever become canon. Let's be real it's highly unlikely we will have any couples by the end of the show (the closest could be AtsuLucy). Sometimes people are too intense about ships and that goes for both antis and pros. Both of the extreme are toxic. And instead of shoving down our opinions down other people's throats, we should be celebrating the very story that brought us together in the first place.

Yeah it can be hard for those who don't like shipping at all to enjoy the story and have discussions. But we have to remember the roots of fandom culture start with shipping. It's always been the case and it's always been the most popular way to discuss one's favourite fictional work. From Sherlock to Genshin to boy bands to streamers, everything has been shipped and will always be. There is a reason why AO3 works so well.

4. SO WHAT?

The ships are what brought me to BSD in the first place. I wanted to explore the world of BSD because of its characters and their dynamics. And a lot of other people have gotten into this fandom for the exact same reason. While there are unflattering moments in our fandom, that doesn't mean it's not a place for people to come together and have some fun. Whether you ship or not. Whether you like fanfictions or not. We have to accept that there are a lot of pros to shipping too. It brings our ideas together, makes us feel giddy inside or tears our heart apart, it produces beautiful fanarts and fanfictions, it makes us analyse characters, it makes us look deeper into the story....and it makes us wait for what's next to come.

And I want nothing more than to be able to enjoy shipping without the guilt that comes with it.

Shipping isn't free from its flaws, but it is not defined only by its flaws. It might not be for everyone, but it is someone's everything. So even if you don't like it in particular, let's not spoil other people's fun. One's trash is another's treasure.

~Peace out 🕊️✌️

#shipping #my rants #bsd #bungo stray dogs #bungou stray dogs #bungo gay dogs #bungou gay dogs #bungou sd #bsd skk #bsd sskk #bsd fyolai #bsd fukumori #bsd fukufuku #bsd ranpoe #bsd dazai #bsd chuuya #bsd soukoku #soukoku #shin soukoku #bsd ada #bsd port mafia #bsd ranpo #bsd fyodor #bsd nikolai #bsd pos #bsd atsushi #bsd akutagawa #bsd gin #bsd tachihara #bsd yosano

[thalassous]

oh i don't know the ship names UH sonya x dolokhov and anatole x mary

OOH LETS GO MY TWO BEST FRIENDS WHO ARE EVIL

SONYAKHOV

why don't you ship it?

I MEAN . i dont think with sonya's people pleasing/dismissal of her own feelings it'd be very fun even in like. an evil way but this is a HEAVY asterisk (i think dolokhov would find out who she was truly and absolutely despise her personally . and the crux of this ship is that dolokhov actually likes someone for once . via canon etc etc)

what would have made you like it?

honestly if dolokhov was more patient and less stuck in his own head, and if sonya ACTUALLY could stand to realize someone out there was willing to care for her without any blood relation (nobody ever ask me how i feel about the rostovs) give both of them time and they would be a good match for each other. my read on sonya is pretty aro as far as it goes and dolokhov DOESN'T have a very nice relationship with romantic love so i think. i think they'd understand each other on a certain level which is nice. (comet canon is soo different and thats a whole nother. thing)

despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

coming back to that asterisk. IF they were fucked up in a romance way. oh how badly would i be down for them. LIKE wap ships are gonna be interesting to me since there's already very few that are nice, healthy relationships. but if you took an obsessive dolokhov and a distrusting sonya and ACTUALLY made it work. grits my teeth together id be so normal about that dynamic .

MARYATOLE

what made you ship it?

I DONT SHIP IT ROMANTICALLY I JUSR HAVE A SOFT SPOT FOR IT PERSONALLY. reading wap itself, marya thinking she can fix anatole and the possibility of that actually playing out is the best to me. i fuckihg love them. the blueprint is right there tolstoy did all of the work im obsessed

what are your favourite things about the ship?

ITS ANOTHER SUPER DUPER FUCKED UP EVIL ONE!!!! in the sense. that. we know for a fact anatole would never treat it seriously for even a second. marya is putting all her energy into this but she's probably aware of how futile it is and yet. she'd definitely end up feeling a little responsible for him and.. ! if that doesn't say anything about either of those two characters. im sorry marya you cant feel responsible for people i know thats what you're used to but :,(( anatole in fact needs people to stop letting him off the hook and taking his damage as their own failings :,((( let this man die marya hes gonna do it anyw—

is there an unpopular opinion you have on your ship?

mm. hey. i cant let you all into my brain but here me out. queer platoni[is shot and killed]

#live bait #sonya rostova #fyodor dolokhov #anatole kuragin #marya bolkonskaya #I WOIDL FINISH MY MARYATOLE OPINIONS BUT IT WAS SOOOO EASY #also ive said very Strong things on this website i dont want to scare children anymore

[herefortheships]

I really, really, Really, need to stop replying to ignorant people who reply to my comments under YouTube videos. The amount of people showing off how they have never picked up a Venom comic in their lives...

Yeah. 

And that’s why I can’t help myself and end up replying and probably having arguments with 12 year old boys on YouTube dot com. Because if they’d read the comics they’d know it’s not a stretch of the imagination for Eddie and the Venom symbiote to be in love in the movies, because they have been in romantic love in the source material. 

I can easily ignore these type of comments about any other of my ships that are not explicitly canon, because, sure, you can have your different opinion and all that, but about this ship? It’s hard to just brush off comments that put the ship down and dismiss it, because this is an odd ship and it’s a queer ship that IS CANON. It is! Canon! 

People dismissing the validity of a canon queer ship just annoys tf out of me. Because for a queer ship to actually become canon and be celebrated by the people creating the movies/book/whatever media, is super rare! And this is a queer ship, that’s also a human x alien ship, that is canon in the source material, and it’s celebrated and supported by the actor and crew involved with the live-action movie. And hey, even in Venom 2 there are some “no homo” moments but hey, they still had to deal with the Anne subplot form the end of the first movie, so I’ll give them a pass. But still, that goes to show just how hard it is for queer ships to make it and be openly queer on media even in 2021 2022. It’s so hard for queer ships to even be acknowledged, and when one like Symbrock IS canon and people still grasp at any straws they can reach to dismiss it? Yeah, it annoys me. 

The claim that they can’t be in love because Venom is asexual is the most annoying comment I keep seeing. I have a post here about why the symbiote being asexual doesn’t mean they can’t love romantically or even have sex. Like, starting with the fact that this is a fictitious intelligent species. Why are all these fanboys so pressed? Honestly it’s because Venom 2 was massive with the gay romcom vibes and they can’t handle it so they are grasping at all the straws they can to say their macho ideal dark and gory character is straight and can’t even be in love unless it’s with a female character like Anne lol. 

Honestly it’s because Venom is SO clearly not straight. The movie iteration of Venom is queer and they/he even came out of the closet wearing rainbow glow rings all over his body, which was a scene much commented about by Andy Serkis himself as a coming out scene for the character, a scene that Tom Hardy co-wrote--a scene that celebrates Venom as an LBGTQ icon, as commented by Andy and Tom themselves. Please.

Tl;dr. I have to stop replying to stupid people who reply to my comments only to show how pressed they are... even if they are bashing on this ship with no basis or knowledge whatsoever about the character and/or the source material. I don’t like getting into arguments with ignorant fanboys online, and certainly it’s a poor use of my free time. I rather just enjoy Symbrock and stay on my lane. I can’t change fanbros’ minds and they can’t change mine. I’ll just comment my supportive comment, and move on. Someone replies? Whatever. I don’t even need to see their reply; I turned off my YouTube notifications to help with that. Hey, New Year’s resolution right there. 

#symbrock #venom #Veddie #it gets annoying seeing #all these peopl dismissing symbrock bc Venom reproduces asexually #and it's so annoying seeing these comments because those of us who have READ the comics KNOW they have in fact been IN LOVE in the comics #new year's resolution #queer stuff #lgbtq stuff #lgbtq media #queer media #Stop dismissing canon queer ships please... #I'm so blessed that I am not like those people

[i-never-even-wanted-to-be-here]

Everyone seems to agree that the anime community as a whole is horrible and toxic, in my humble opinion even the worst fandom I know of. But why is that? Well, I tried to pick apart the fandom and categorise us into boxes, which isn't the best approach but I wanted to get the bunch of different people in order. So what problematic behaviour have I spotted?

(You're welcome to add on or dismiss this, it's just something I've come up with to make sense of this mess of a community)

The elitist:

All of us know them. They won't consider you a real anime fan, unless you've watched all episodes of One Piece, even if you've watched a lot of other anime already. They love comparing shows and will attack you if you disagree with them.

The power scaler:

They are a subcategory of the elitist, they are all about finding the most powerful, most Chad like character. They only watch fighting-shonen. "Goku solos"

The homophobe

If two male characters are shown to be very affectionate with each other, these guys feel the need to comment "kinda sussy" as if it's something bad or something to laugh at. If they actually like the characters and it's obvious that they might actually have feelings for each other then this type gets very desperate in proving to everyone that "they're just friends, stop shipping them" (eg Killua and Gon; not canon but very suggestive). They have constant beef with people who headcanon characters as queer and ship them with each other.

The transphobe

This archetype is good friends with the homophobe. They make fun of "traps" and cross dressers and get reaaally overwhelmed with the concept of gender bending. Wouldn't be surprised to hear an attack helicopter joke from them.

The misogynist

They love harem and ecchi/fanservice, which isn't bad but they don't care or even notice when a female character gets harassed. Anime often has pervy characters, who don't face any consequences for their behaviours and are sometimes even glorified because their problematic actions are used as comedy (think Jiraya or Sanji). That encourages the misogynist's mindset. They desperately want an anime watching girlfriend but then creep every girl out. "Looking for a Hinata in a sea of Sakuras"

The hater

They love picking fights for no reason and are extremely rude. I've seen multiple harmless posts of fanart or edits, under which several people commented "cringe", which is very hurtful to the creators, even though it's just one word. It's a powerful word and this type blatantly abuses its power to bully. They might gaslight you and think they know better than everyone else, which is interesting, if not ironic, because they often have anime profile pictures of a (main) character who'd never condone their behaviour. If you say that you like Boku No Hero Academia this type will laugh at you. They hate Deku cause he cries a lot.

The informer & translator

They talk about upcoming anime, recommend some and might have an account, on which they explain fan theories etc. They tend to be respectful and helpful. You're appreciated!

The creative one

They are not problematic, they use their free time to be productive and share their work with other fans. Whether it's fanart, fanfic or cosplay, keep doing it! Thank you, we love it and greatly appreciate your effort and service! However, there's limits, which seem obvious but are often overlooked: for example, please don't draw sexy art of a minor.

The shipper

I doubt I have to explain this one. Shipping is completely fine, but again, there's limits: no minors if it gets sexual. And maybe consider whether the pairing is healthy.

The fetishiser

For example fujoshis. You are of course free to enjoy any content but please don't make queer people uncomfortable with your shippings. Someone liking your sexuality feels very weird. It's like the "let's have a threesome"-line that bisexuals and other mspec people often hear.

The roleplayer

They pretend to be a character and then act out scenarios with others. If it's harmless, it's fine.

Honourable mention: The one who has no social media presence and just silently enjoys their anime without having problematic opinions or getting involved in unnecessary discourse

Super chill people, quite rare, very cool but you can't really get hype about anime with them cause they're too calm haha

That's all I came up with. I'm not sure what this is telling us now. I don't think I'm any smarter than before but it feels like I put something into words that really needed to get out cause I've gotten rather annoyed by certain people recently. Maybe see this as a vibe check; did you pass? I'mma call myself out, I don't know whether I'm problematic but I can get pretty annoying with all my discourse, kinda starting arguments when I feel like I gotta call someone out.

Any other opinions?

#anime #anime community #fandom #manga #jujutsu kaisen #owari no seraph #haikyuu!! #shingeki no kyojin #snk #boku no hero academia #death note #sk8 the infinity #black clover #hunter x hunter

[captnjacksparrow]

A thing I can stand about some SNS antis is how unwilling they are too acknowledge their own homophobia. You firstly get those that insist any shippers is automatically fetishizing mlm relationships by liking SNS despite a good bunch of the current fandom being made up of queer fans ( men, women or not - I myself am a lesbian ). There's those that grin smugly about the heteronormativity shoved in our faces: 2 canon m/f relationships can have less than half of the m/m's pairing screen time and development put together and still be considered more valid. "Umm they were never gay, they weren't written this way, why shove it down their throats?". Geez, wonder why an author originating from a culture that deals with homophobia would not be willing to even imagine the possibility of a romantic direction between his male leads. A real mystery. And the way they'll stretch out canon to its breaking point to justifying their ship's existence from the beginning while falt out dismissing stuff directly shown and stated by Naruto and Sasukw ( Naruto putting Sasuke above his Hokage dream by being ok with dying together, Sasuke himself saying Naruto is the only person standing between him and loneliness ). On that matter, many seem to have this obsession with "being planned out from the start ( their ship )". I do not understand it especially when Naruto has such a dissonance between its meta voice - the author - and the canon actually written. Kishimoto has mentioned Hinata was always watching Naruto and some sketches I think show her desing at least was in his mind from early stages, but any serious relevance from her in the canon text is non-existent. Look, Kishimoto could have claimed in an interview that Kiba was secretly the reincarnation of the Sage of Six Paths and it would have meant jack sh*t, because outside confirmation from the author is supposed to enhance what is already in the story, not create its basis from scratch. Does it matter that NH and SS were planned early on if their execution is boring at best and annoying at its worst?

As for planned early on, is there any proof, Anon?? I am asking this seriously. If you have the interview proof regarding this 'Planned from the start' bullshit, please send me the link. I want to see it with my very own eyes.

Because Kishi himself openly acknowledged in 2 interviews that NH was decided halfway through the series.

If Kishi planned about Naruto's pairing only after halfway into the series, then there's no way that he planned for Sasuke much before than that.

And you know know what? He told in a 2006 interview that he never wrote romantic relationships till then. That is after completing part 1.

So, either those antis are lying or Kishi was lying. I bet it's those antis.

When they say, 'They are not Gay'... I always retort back with, 'Well, you may be true. But saying Goodbye when staring at Naruto with so much pain in such a close proximity but didn't bother to show his face to Sakura.... Completely obsessed with a boy for 4 to 5 years of his adolescent life to the point of ready to die along with Sasuke whereas completely ignoring love proposal from 2 girls .... Completely went deranged to the point of recognizing no one and even reached the stage to kill anyone with no hesitation, including the girls who loved him with all their hearts. But the moment, a certain boy's face appear before his eyes, he stops his rampage.... These are not Straight behaviours either'...

Most people could never properly answer this, but they retort back to other bullshit which leads to an endless argument. That's not even worth it. So, I just try to avoid them like pests.

Not only that, that damn Kishimoto just painted 'not just friendly' paint on most of the posters.

I mean, the very first pic I've attached here looks like something weird is going on underneath... I showed that picture to my friend who never watched Naruto, to ask what he could infer from that picture and he asked me with a scornful look, 'It looks like these guys are jerking off and why do you have this kind of pic in your phone?'... I can't even answer that question.😂😂

The second one, God!!! Tilting their heads in the opposite direction is not suggestive of 'Kissing' at all. Because I am Blind.

I mean these are not fanmade but that bastard kishi's handiwork.

Alright leave everything, aside.

There was this day, I got an ask about how do I feel about ItaSasu ship. I flat out refused and said 'Gross'. Because I always see myself in Itachi and my sis in Sasuke. Just shipping two fictional brothers made me gross out.

And what kishi did when he let so many people openly ship SNS?

He did Nothing to stop this!!

If Kishi truly wished them to be brothers, he should not have let this scene happen in the OVA... Because, If I write a novel and somehow it is going to be adapted into a movie, I don't want my production company to depict brothers like this. I get uncomfortable if they do these things, Anon.

Also which friend would 'Accidentally' fall on another boy's duck or mouth multiple times??.

Even after their supposed 'canonical' marriages, Kishi, that sly bastard is writing scenes like these. He just could've made them shower love towards their wives like how Minato loved Kushina. But kishi be like, 'No No, I will give Kushina's role to Sasuke to talk about Naruto's stories'.

It looks like a princess who is fainting and the hero catches her up.

When we point all these out, they just pull out 'SS/NH is canon. They were meant to be from the beginning'....

All we have to do is to ignore these buffoons and let them scream amongst themselves.

#naruto #ask #naruto analysis #sns #anti sakura #anti hinata #antisakura #antihinata #sasunaru #narusasu #sasunarusasu

[adler-obsessed]

Hi! I'm new in the fandom and wanted to ask why everyone seems to be hating Derek Landy? Yes the books are pretty brutal and he's low-key sadistic with the characters, but aren't most book authors? I just finished book 6 and I'm really enjoying them so far. I'm just curious and don't wanna offend anyone.

oh boy buckle up - I just want to first of all say welcome to the fandom!!! Although it may seem a bit negative sometimes, it’s mainly because we love the series and characters so much!

There’s a lot of people who know more about + have details on Landy’s problematic statements/actions so guys/fandom if you could add that onto this post, I’d appreciate it.

A short summary:

problematic representation in books

the disaster of Phase 2

attacking fans (bonus: his gf attacking fans)

problematic relationships with young fans

But I’ve been meaning to do an analysis of why Landy’s representation of queer people and the LGBTQ+ Community has been problematic for a while and I have examples so buckle up everyone:

So, as a brief introduction, there’s several reasons why people aren’t the biggest fan of Landy - one you won’t be aware of for awhile is Phase 2, which starts after Book 9

Phase 2, I think I can say confidently, has not been as well received as Phase 1. Lots of the characters we liked in Phase 1 don’t appear or have lost all their character development from Phase 1. There are so many side plots that are very confusing and most people aren’t particularly interested in them so large parts of each book are quite boring for most of the fandom.

But onto my main argument (edit: in a reblog below, Faceless has linked many of the examples I discuss if you are interested)

Landy has had quite a bumpy ride when it comes to representation: in the Demon Road series (outside of SP) there was a very problematic portrayal of a wlw relationship. He claimed that everyone is eventually bisexual, and then there is a wider issue of representation in the actual Skulduggery books.

Firstly, those characters that are in the LGBTQ+ community tend to have that aspect of their life continuously pointed out/or mentioned (like Landy is trying to show how ‘diverse’ he is) but then have very little character development/or mention of anything other than that.

There is a supposedly major wlw ship in Phase 2, but it is so underdeveloped it feels more like a main character and her cheerleader. In the last book we finally got some development only for them to then break up (although I somewhat liked the realistic reasons behind it, it did disappoint me)

Linking from this, there is a general difference in how Landy treats non-canon queer ships versus straight ones

When asked about the possibility of a non-canon straight ship, he said he didn’t like to dismiss the fan’s ships. In comparison when a fan asked about mlm ship, he immediately said no to it (keep in mind there was no dubious relationship between these two in the books, they are super close so it made no sense for him to completely refuse it)

Landy also likes to point out his queer characters like China and Tanith, who are both canonly bisexual/pansexual (he confirmed to a fan that China and Eliza were a thing) and yet, whenever the two are romantically involved with someone, it’s a man.

Now, before I get people attacking me saying they are still bisexual even though they’re in straight passing relationships, I AM bisexual, I hate it when people invalidate my sexuality just because I am in a relationship w a guy or girl.

But eVERYTIME, these two end up with a guy, and the only time Landy has confirmed they aren’t straight are either in blink and you’ll miss it moments or outside of the books (sort of like Rowling claiming characters were gay on Twitter, and yet these characters were never seen expressing these identities in the books or in later media)

So why is this representation problematic? Because writers like Landy seem to think they’ve actually done a good job - stating once that a character identifies/or has a certain sexual orientation, and then never elaborating on it again, as if that somehow wins him brownie points.

I’m not going to talk to much about Never - for context this is a gender fluid character in Phase Two - because I myself am not gender fluid, so I would not want to speak for that side of the community incorrectly. In my personal opinion, having several genderfluid friends, Never’s characterisation is bloody weird.

For context, in the books, Landy changes the pronouns that Never uses and others use to address him/her practically every sentence. At times it feels less like a portrayal of a genderfluid character, and more like a mockery (one of my aforementioned genderfluid friends stopped reading the series at this point because they found it too close to the mocking insults their grandparents would use e.g. changing pronouns every sentence as if making out that their gender identity was some absurd thing)

Again, rest of the fandom feel free to interject in here, there are definitely people more qualified to speak on this than me.

I also want to talk a little bit about the problematic way Derek handles female members of the LGBTQ+ community in comparison to the male ones. I’ve mentioned above a bit of the problems with China/Tanith but I want to go a bit further into the issue with the male ones: namely, there are barely any.

While the three main female characters are all canonly bisexual, none of the major male ones are (if I’m wrong, please correct me!) and the only one who could possibly be considered major is Anton Shudder and his boyfriend who are confirmed to have been in a relationship, oh wait, when they are both dead. Apart from that, there is not one major male member of the LGBTQ+ community in these books that Landy claims are so diverse.

I think it is also slightly worrying that so many of Landy’s female characters are bisexual, characters who Landy also constantly describes as pretty/gorgeous/attractive etc. because it just feels like that typical thing of men fetishising wlw women (particularly bisexual women) hence why I also think the fact that two of these women never have a relationship with another wlw in the actual books is very problematic, as these sexual orientations feel more for show than actual canon most of the time.

There is a very big problem with the way Landy goes about queer representation in his books, and the worse part? He thinks he’s doing great.

#skulduggery pleasant #Derek Landy critical #apologies for the mammoth essay but I had feelings

[whyqueerbaitingisbad]

movies & shows

cracks knuckles* alright this is going to be more of a rant than an analysis because i’m basing this on both my research, but also how it felt to personally be baited by these shows. there are obviously more pieces of bad (almost every horror movie) and good ones but these are the ones i’ve watched.

please keep in mind that i am but one queer and everyone has different opinions.

Supernatural (CW) 2005

This show is 15 years old and just ended. From season 5 till 15, there has been tension between two of the lead characters. They were constantly shipped together and not only did the entire fandom know about this ship but so did almost all of Tumblr. On top of that, the actors and show runners knew about it as well. Which is why it makes it ridiculous that it was constantly pushed aside while the romantic coding  kept happening, even after show runners dismissed it as being intentional. The Destiel (Dean x Cas) case has been going on for years, and as the show came to its end, many fans had hope. But N O P E. Instead, we got a love confession from Cas where Dean looked like he was near constipated and the Cas was killed and sent into a fiery place that was not hell but s u p e r  h e l l.

… w hy.

Sherlock (BBC) 2010

Just like Supernatural, this show was renown on Tumblr for not only how good it was, but its hinting at a potential relationship between Sherlock Holmes and John Watson. But again, like Supernatural, the intentional tension between the two characters was denied by producers. This caused an uproar within the fandom, and even left some people believing that, after the last season aired, it had been a joke and the producers were hiding a “secret, unaired season” because they had felt so robbed by this show that had implied something and denied it.

The 100 (CW) 2014

We got lesbians. We got background gays. We were happy. Then, all of a sudden, one of them is killed for no reason. Did it advance the plot? No. Was she fighting and died in battle? lol no. She was doing literally nothing and got shot and died. And then the producers kept bringing her back once a season in the form of a ghost or illusion because why? Because she was a fan favourite queer character. ✨bury your gays and sparingly bring them back for profit anyone?✨

Voltron: Legendary Defender (Netflix) 2016

*deep breathe* This one is a special disaster. Not only was there romantic tension and romantically coded scenes for 7 seasons, but producers, voice actors and artists working on the show repeatedly said “don’t worry klance (Keith x Lance) shippers, you’ll be happy”

. … w h e r e??? You code one of their scenes with a sunset in the background while they talk about love and then one of them goes on a date with someone who has declined his advances for 7 seasons but now in season 8 decides to do a full 180. Not only that, but you announce at a Comic Con (a convention) that a character is gay and has a fiancé, only to kill off the fiancé and never make it explicit in the show except at the last second of the last episode where he marries a no name character. 

Personally, i’d like to say a big fuck you to the show that strung me along for 2 years and never stopped saying we’d be happy to then pull the rug out from under us and call us crazy for thinking anything from the past 8 seasons was intentional.

Scooby-Doo (2002) 

While not being outwardly queerbaiting, this movie’s filmmaker has just revealed some shocking news, which wasn’t at all shocking to the gays who had watched this movie over the years. In July of 2020, James Gunn, the filmmaker of Scooby-Doo, revealed in a podcast that, initially, Velma was explicitly gay in his script, but then the studio watered it down until it became nothing. This isn’t an example of baiting as much as it is changing a character’s initial design to “better fit an audience”. The worst part of all this is that with Velma’s character having been written with a l i t t l e queer subtext, people had been theorizing about if since the movie came out, but were always yelled at by the internet for “imagining something that isn’t there”. But now, even with it being said that the initial point was for her to be gay, people have no objections to still refusing to accept it. Why?? So we can’t get the subtext gays OR the confirmed gays?? Make it make sense.

Brooklyn 99 (NBC) 2013

To have the queer characters firstly introduced without mentioning their sexualities and have it brought up naturally was so goddamn nice to see, because no one does a big deal about it unless they ask for that. This show is amazing in general but the way they show their queer characters is *chefs kiss*.

She-ra and the Princesses of Power (Netflix) 2018

This. Show. My heart SOARS. It's just a remake of an old show so absolutely nothing was ever expected, but then it was sprinkled in and ENDED WITH A BANG. And it was so beautiful and real to see the struggle of two friends who care for each other and want to be together but have different visions of the world fall in love. And they also had characters with disabilities, a non-binary character and jUST SUCH A GOOD SHOW.

Kipo and The Age of Wonderbeasts (Netflix) 2020

This is a case where you go into it not expecting anything and are BLOWN AWAY by the bare minimum. And not because it’s bad!! It's mind blowing because this is the simple representation we need!! Not something over the top, but an every day relationship. It’s just two boys falling in love and going on dates and being nervous around each other, yet i was so stunned. Because it’s not shown enough. I should not be this excited over something that should be this normal. 10/10 though this show is so good for all kinds of representation.

Steven Universe (Cartoon Network) 2013

This show did so much for queer representation with its general message of loving everyone and loving who you want. Especially since it was aired on Cartoon Network, a channel for kids, it was able to help normalize something so looked down upon in some circles. It made it easy to watch for s o m e people because it's a cartoon but it's so beautiful to see these ladies so in love with each other, both platonically and romantically and we see them have a family dynamic that isn’t a “nuclear family”. Rebecca Sugar (creator) really said “lemme just break all stereotypes real quick”.

Adventure Time (Cartoon Network) 2010

It's the “knowing a fanbase shipped something so hard that the creators made it canon” for me. This relationship had been theorized by fans for years, but it had never been explicit in the show. When the finale episode came out and the two shared a kiss, it was a moment of celebration. The producer of the show said that it had not really been planned but when the episode was being made, the choice of what happened was given to one of the artists (bless your soul Hanna K. Nyströmthe). And as the show releases little bonus episodes, its latest was centered around Marceline and Bubblegum and their relationship. AND WE LOVE TO SEE OUR DOMESTIC LESBIANS BEING HAPPY AND IN LOVE.

Yuri on Ice!!! (anime) 2016

The fact that an A N I M E gave us a love story between two men is mind boggling and it makes me so happy!! Especially because it's a Japanese show and they’re very conservative about these things just makes it more emotional. The creators said they wanted to make the anime take place in a world where gay/straight isn’t a thing, it’s just love (ladies, you’re going to make me cry). So as the weekly episodes came out and fans start speculating, THEY GAVE US THE LAST FEW EPISODES FULL OF ROMANCE AND EMOTIONAL SCENES BETWEEN THE TWO AND THEN THEY GET R I N GS?!???!! You watch for the figure skating, you stay for the figure skaters that are in love.

Shadowhunters (Freeform) 2016

*insert me being frustrated that the actors are straight so we can move on from that disappointment*

This show really said “let’s name a whole episode after this couple because they deserve it”. But seriously, they gave us two characters whose entire plot does not center around their sexualities while still showing us the differences in a relationship between someone experienced and someone new at this. They were both powerful and amazing characters apart from each other, with their own story lines and goals but they loved each other so much omgs. SO MUCH. 

It was so great to watch.

Love, Simon (2018) 

There’s a lot of disagreement on whether this movie is good representation or not. However, we need to take into consideration that this was Hollywood’s first movie with a main character that was gay, where the story’s focus was on Simon’s love story. The biggest problem, for me at least, was that the actor playing Simon is a straight man and not queer. My problem is not with him, but the fact that there are other actors that are gay and that could have played Simon just as well. (the love interested was however played by a queer actor so ✨progress✨)

All in all, this movie does represent what a lot of queer kids have to go through: being outed at school, how they then come out, the bullying and doubt they go through.

The book is also really good.

Call Me By Your Name (2018)

This movie is so aesthetically pleasing and was able to capture the confusion and heartbreak felt by a boy who’s struggling with his own feelings towards a man. His inner conflict and joy and l o v e he feels but doesn’t know how to deal with is so well communicated through the screen and just breaks your heart because it feels so real.

But again, they could’ve gotten gay actors to play gay characters…

through having this list here, i want to show you that it’s not hard for creators to give good queer representation. the LGBTQ+ community isn’t asking for much, we just want to be well represented on screen as just a regular character, not some token queer kid there for the diversity points. having been exposed to so much queerbaiting and just not seeing any representation on screen, i always get over-excited when i see a queer character, and that’s not how it should be. it should be a normal thing, something you can find in most pieces of media, just like there’s a straight white cisgender person in everything.

and they seriously need to start casting queer actors for queer characters...

#queer #queerbait #queerbaiting #supernatural #they really said lets make it the worst ending ever #destiel #sherlock #johnlock #the 100 #clexa #bury your gays #fuck you jason rothenberg #voltron #klance #...that was a shit show #scooby doo 2 #what an icon she was tho #brooklyn 99 #rosa diaz is a god you cant tell me otherwise #she ra and the princesses of power #shera #catradora #go lesbians go #kipo and the age of wonderbeasts #gave us precious gaybies #steven universe #ALL THE LESBIANS #adventure time #obsidian #bubbleine

[guccifloralsuits]

Hey! Sorry if this is rude or dumb but I keep seeing the word queer-baiting used on twitter about Harry and I know you don’t think that’s true but I’m confused about what actually is supposed to mean? no one can seem to agree what it is and you seem like you know it so yeah sorry if this isn’t okay to ask I know it’s not your job to educate me

happy to help!!!! Queerbaiting is widely misused as a term, & doing so can be really harmful. It’s not dumb or rude at all to ask!

By definition, queerbaiting is when entertainment content intentionally leads on LGBT+ audiences with the promise of representation w/out delivering, or by doing so in a dismissive & harmful way. There are a few main components for what qualifies (& doesn’t qualify) as queerbaiting:

Queerbaiting happens only in a fictional context.

Queerbaiting is explicit and intentional. 

Queerbaiting is when audiences are led on to genuinely believe that the non-straight/non-cis aspect of a character is being set up to get canon-recognized, only for writers to dismiss or leave these claims unacknowledged

Queerbaiting also includes (but is not limited to): only canon-confirming lgbt+ ships w/in the last few episodes of a series, the “bury your gays” trope, & tokenizing lgbt+ characters & reducing them to plot-devices or shallow stereotypes. 

Let’s break each bullet down further: 

A. Queerbaiting happens only in a fictional context. Real people can’t queerbait because 1) it’s really harmful to label certain clothes, mannerisms, physical traits, or mediums of self-expression as gay & 2) we should not be forcing people to out-themselves or prove their level of queerness to us before they are ready just so they can be #allowed to express their identity.

B. Queerbaiting is explicit and intentional. This is where a lot of people get confused. What this means is that queerbaiting is when hinting at sexuality is physically in the script or description of the dialogue.

Implicit gestures or the onscreen sexual chemistry between two characters is not enough to call queer-baiting (actor chemistry is implicit & often unplanned). complimenting a same-sex character on their appearance/clothes/character is also not not enough to call something queerbaiting (it’s not an explicitly queer overture).

C. Queerbaiting is when audiences are led on to genuinely believe in the possibility of canon leading towards confirmation of a non-straight/cis aspect of a character by their dialogue and by script-written action. It’s a whole different ballpark to HC a character as gay (cus #vibez) vs. to have a character go on a storyline arc about their romantic attachment to a same-sex character only for them to later dismiss it as “I was just experimenting lol.” (I’m looking @ you, The Politician & Ryan Murphy).

Let’s look at 2 examples of what might and might not be considered queerbaiting. you don’t need to know the background context to understand these scenes for our purposes.

Exhibit A: Moreid & This Scene from CM (you can click to watch for full context, the relevant part starts at around 00:57). The Dialogue:

Reid: There's an old Buddhist saying that, when you meet your soulmate, remember that the act to bring you together was 500 years in the making. So always appreciate and be kind to each other.

Tara: That's lovely.

Reid: There's a corollary for friends. When you meet a true friend, you will be bound together though space and time for 500 years. Which means...in 2200, I’m gunna get Morgan back for that practical joke he played on me last week.

Morgan: bring it, Pretty Boy. I’ll be waiting for you.

Reid: I’ll be there.

So like. I choose to believe that was gay in my head ❤️. But I see some people in the cm fandom have called this Queerbaiting before, when it actually isn’t because writers took the time to add “corollary for friends.” (If that wasn’t there it’d be different, but...) It was playing on fans love of Moreid’s dynamic, sure, but I did not leave that scene thinking “oh my god, the writers are going to make moreid canon holy shit!” I left it thinking “wow I can’t wait to read fanfic about this 👀.” The show-writers weren’t honestly leading me on to believe that this was a relationship which was going to play out. There was no direct sexual ambiguity here. There’s absolutely a different convo to be had about inclusive representation but. This is ship-teasing at best

In contrast, let’s look at this scene where Stiles goes to a club in Teen Wolf. You can watch it here (but honestly? You don’t need to see the video to see the baiting and that’s a key difference, too). Dialogue:

[A girl pulls at Stiles to start kissing in the club. He stops, for a moment]

Stiles: I...thought you liked girls?

Girl: I do like girls. Do you?

Stiles: yeah. Absolutely.

Girl: great!

Stiles: so you also like boys?

Girl: Absolutely! Do you?

Stiles: [looks off in contemplation, as if he’s never considered the possibility before].

AND THEN THE SCENE JUST ENDS. ITS NEVER ADDRESSED AGAIN. JUST DROPPED.

This scene was both intentionally written and explicitly leading when Stiles looks off and they end the scene before he answers. I did leave that scene thinking “wait oh my god....they’re going to let stiles be canon bi, holy sHIT—“ and then they didn’t. And they had explicitly alluded to Stiles attraction to guys before this too, like asking if gay guys would find him attractive, or responding “I could be!!” When his dad tells him “you’re not gay.”

Do you see the difference between these examples? Implied subtext alone doesn’t fall within the confines of baiting, and queerbaiting is baiting fans, at its core, about a character’s ambiguous sexuality.

D) other forms of queerbaiting: only giving fans a canon lgbt+ relationship within the last 3 episodes of a series, making a queer couple canon only for one or both characters to immediately get killed off, tokenizing lgbt+ characters & reducing them to plot-devices or shallow stereotypes. This is an attempt to get “hey look!!! We’re so inclusive!!!” points without doing literally any of the work.

E) further reading:

Fandom: Please stop Misusing the term Querbaiting (also a good guide on the difference between ship-teasing & queerbaiting)

Iowa State Professor explains the ins & outs of queerbaiting

hope this helps!

#queerbaiting #asks #ref #i did end up read-moring this cus its long #stiles stilinski

[revisitedgrunt]

Anonymous said:

“I could also say if sun was a woman they would ship it sun and blake have actual chemistry with each other romantically and I have seen bxy shippers desperately jump through hoops to ignore evidence or act like black sun was sunk etc . I have seen bxy shippers trying to use monty card as well. or act like because monty said there will be lgbt characters it must be team rwby

not to mention that despite how bXy shippers pretend blake X yang isnt confirmed despite how much they try to twist adams lines as hinting at romance like destroy everything you love. or ignore adams racism or trying to equate bxy to renoras moments ignoring context and the way it was shot all they do is but both of them involve holding hands. or another argument I have seen is but both pairings in jnpr involve partners dating when that doesnt mean it has to be the case for rwby.”

Hi Anon, thanks for getting in touch.  I was hoping my last post would start a conversation.  Allow me to respond to your points.

First things first, my post wasn't about the relevant merits of Blacksun or Bumbleby.  It was about how heterosexual and homosexual ships are viewed differently, even when both have evidence supporting them.  I could have used another show, or other ships.  The reason I used RWBY to illustrate my point is because the show made it very easy for me.  It contains a scene where a man winks at a woman, and a scene where a woman winks at a woman.  As the same thing happens in both scenes, it makes it incredibly easy to directly compare the two.

When you strip everything else away, both scenes contain the exactly same thing, a woman getting winked at.  Both winks are of a flirtatious nature, the only difference is the gender of the winker, so why is the M/F ship automatically accepted, but the F/F ship is immediately dismissed? Why do you think that happens?  I'd really, really like to get your thoughts on that.

I can give you my perspective.  We still live in a very heteronormative society.  It doesn't help that the media we consume conditions us to accept certain things, especially when it comes to attraction and romance. It all reinforces the notion that if a man and woman share an attraction, they are going to end up together.  A lot of straight people, and this isn't their fault, lack perspective when it comes to homosexual romance.  They don't see what's happening because they don't have a frame of reference.  This is why people should be more open minded.  If someone with more knowledge in a subject tells you something, you should listen.  For example, if a black person says something is racist, it's probably racist.  If a queer person says something is queer, it's probably queer.

As I said before, let me know why you think heterosexual and homosexual ships are treated differently.

Let me go back to the winking for a second.  Some people have pointed out that Yang is playful and she's winked at other people, including Weiss.  This is 100% correct.  If Yang had made a joke, or was joking around in general, we could question if the wink was flirtatious.  However, for the entire scene Yang is nothing but serious.  At the end, when she says “and if you feel like coming out tomorrow, I'll save you a dance.”, listen to the tone of her voice.  She sounds sincere, genuine, even hopeful.  She doesn’t sound like she’s joking beacuse this isn’t a joking matter for her.  She's inviting Blake out and promising to dance with her.  This seems pretty clear cut to me.  The suggestion that Yang is just being playful further reinforces my point on how differently heterosexual and homosexual interactions are viewed.

Now, onto the points you raise.

“I could also say if sun was a woman they would ship it”

You are 100% right.  Do you know why we would ship them?  Because we are desperate for representation.  We latch onto any homosexual pairing that has even the slightest hint of becoming romantic, simply because we don't get the sheer amount straight people do.  GLAAD published a report called “Where We Are on TV”.  It covers the 2018-2019 TV season and states “ Of the 857 regular characters expected to appear on broadcast scripted primetime programming this season, 75 (8.8%) were identified as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and/or queer.” Heterosexual people can watch any show on TV and find someone to identify with.  Queer people get 8.8%.    

“sun and blake have actual chemistry with each other romantically and I have seen bxy shippers desperately jump through hoops to ignore evidence or act like black sun was sunk etc ”

No right minded Bumbleby shipper disputes the fact that Blake and Sun shared an attraction.  That is clear from what is presented on the show.  The split comes when the word romantic is used.  We all know that attraction does not always equal romance.  I haven't seen any evidence on the show to suggest that Blake and Sun's relationship went further than mutual attraction, before evolving into an amazing friendship that really helped Blake.  

My personal opinion is that Sun stopped pursuing a romantic relationship at the end of Volume 3.  He saw how much Blake cared for Yang and resolved to be the best friend he could be for Blake.  I believe his speech to Neptune in Volume 6 confirms this.  Having said that, the show isn't over, we have no idea what the writers are going to do.  Maybe they will go with Blacksun, none of us really know what's going to happen.

Let me be perfectly clear here.  I had assumed that Blake and Sun would enter into a romantic relationship.  However, at this point in the story, I no longer think this.  Am I saying Blacksun was never a valid ship?  No. Am I criticising Blacksun?  No.  Am I saying you shouldn't support Blacksun?  Of course not.  I'm not even saying Blacksun has sunk.  It's not sunk because the show isn't over, and both of them are still alive.  That's the big difference here, in most fandoms, even if a M/F ship seems unlikely, it's still given more validation than an F/F ship.  This is the point I'm getting at.  Lets give M/F and F/F ships the same level of respect.

I'm not sure what evidence we're ignoring, or what hoops we're jumping through.  Please provide some examples for us to discuss.

“I have seen bxy shippers trying to use monty card as well. or act like because monty said there will be lgbt characters it must be team rwby”

I guess Bumbleby shippers do use the Monty card.  When we use it, we usually say “Monty wouldn't have a problem with Bumbleby.”  We feel safe saying this because we have actual evidence to back this up.  I wrote an entire post called “Monty Oum and LGBT representation” that supports this view.  We don't make unsupported claims like the people that say Monty wouldn't want Bumbleby to happen.  They have not been able to provide one shred of evidence to support this.  Do you really think these two sides are the same?  One is saying Monty was a loving, inclusive guy and the other side is calling him a homophobe.

The LGBT characters don't have to be on team RWBY.  There's also no reason that the LGBT characters shouldn't be on team RWBY.  There's no reason they shouldn't be Blake and Yang.

“not to mention that despite how bXy shippers pretend blake X yang isnt confirmed despite how much they try to twist adams lines as hinting at romance like destroy everything you love. or ignore adams racism”

I'm a bit confused here.  Bumbleby shippers pretend Bumbleby isn't confirmed?  So you're saying Bumbleby is confirmed?  I think I can safely say that the majority of Bumbleby shippers will admit that Bumbleby isn't canon yet.  We think they are right on the edge, but they aren't in a romantic relationship yet, meaning they aren't canon, yet.

We don't try to twist Adam's lines to hint at romance, the actual lines spoken by Adam hint at romance.  “I will make it my mission to destroy everything you love.  Starting with her.”  “What does she even see in you!” Adam can see how much Blake cares about Yang, and he considers Yang a romantic rival.  

I think you're implying that Adam hates Yang because she's human.  I can see the logic, but Adam never uses the fact that Yang is human against her.  So, there's nothing there to ignore.  He could have said “Starting with that filthy human.” or “Why does she care so much about a human!” He doesn't, he clearly cares far more about Blake's feelings towards Yang, than the fact that Yang is human.

“or trying to equate bxy to renoras moments ignoring context and the way it was shot all they do is but both of them involve holding hands.”

Can you clarify what context we are ignoring?  The way I remember it is, Ren and Nora fight the Nuckelavee, a monster that has traumatised them.  They defeat it and grow closer, as evidenced by the looks they share, and them holding hands on the airship.  The fandom unanimously agrees that Renora is now canon.  Next we have Blake and Yang fight Adam, a monster that has traumatised them.  They defeat him and grow closer, as evidenced by the looks they share, and them holding hands on the airship.  For some reason, the fandom doesn't agree that Bumbleby is canon.

Damn it, this example would have been even better than the winking scenes.  Renora and Bumbleby really does highlight the different ways heterosexual and homosexual ships are viewed.

“another argument I have seen is but both pairings in jnpr involve partners dating when that doesnt mean it has to be the case for rwby.”

I don't remember ever seeing this.  Of course it doesn't have to be the case.  If someone says this, I don't think they're being serious.  I think it's safe to say that no one seriously expects Whiterose to become canon.  The work hasn't been done and the hints aren't there.  Bumbleby is another matter.  There's a reason we think this ship is going to be canon.  It's because the work has been done, the hints have been there and by the end of Volume 6, that line between platonic and romantic is looking pretty blurred.  

If you haven't seen the hints and the work, please refer back to what I said earlier.  If a queer person tells you something is queer, it's probably queer.  

Thanks anon, that was fun.  Come back if you have more points you'd like to discuss.

#rwby #Blake Belladonna #yang xiao long #bumbleby #lgbt representation

[vecna]

Okay, Greedfall is a small fandom and I really don’t want to start drama. But it’s been wearing me down.

Female De Sardet fans: Y’all have gotta stop reblogging people’s m/m slash ship gifsets and edits, and adding comments like “just guys being bros!” or “they seem like good friends” or whatever other comments erasing the fact that it’s meant to be queer content. Yes, that includes non-canon ships like male De Sardet and Kurt! Let people headcanon it without reblogging their posts to be like NOPE.

And y’all especially need to stop saving people’s m/m screencaps and edits, and cropping out male De Sardet to use them in m/f aesthetic posts. That should be a common courtesy, not to save other people’s caps and remove their character? But it’s especially frustrating to see people cropping out half of a queer couple to make it straight.

It’s fine if you prefer f!DS and m/f ships and so on! That’s cool! But this escalating trend of f!DS players making active efforts to dismiss or erase m/m content is a little tiresome, and I’d like for folks to be aware you’re doing it and please stop.

Thanks!

#greedfall #fandom drama for ts #negative // #misc: text #listen i already had to deal with the mass effect fandom #where i had femshep players yelling 'LEAVE OUR MEN ALONE! STOP STEALING OUR MEN!!' #at people who shipped mshep with kaidan or thane #please lets not repeat that in this fandom it's so small #we already get enough shit from people shitting on this game as it is

[norahastuff]

At this point , I am really scared , I need some reassurance that Destiel will happen , so many posts saying that it is unlikely , please help!! :(

Ok first of all, I get it. These days I’m relatively chill about most aspects of the show, just taking things as they come and trying to enjoy the story they’re telling - it’s still a pretty good one - but I have those moments too. For example my knee jerk reaction to the “Cas has failed his brothers” tweet  (which again means nothing - people that run the CW social media accounts know next to nothing about what’s going on in the show) was genuinely “I can’t believe Dean made Cas a mixtape of the music his parents fell in love over, in a scene that was shot so romantically, and people are still out here calling them brothers.”

And honestly that’s still where I’m stuck with all of this. I haven’t been in fandom long. I never even really knew what shipping was until last year. I was watching, enjoying and analysing the show (albeit in my own head), long before I found tumblr, and had thought it was blindingly obvious that there were romantic elements to Dean and Cas’ relationship. I think that’s something a lot of us forget when we’re talking about “Canon Destiel” and what will happen etc. We discount everything that has already happened between them in favour of some proof down the road. Which I get, trust me, but I really don’t think we should forget everything that led us to see Dean and Cas this way to begin with.

Ok so what helps me mostly be chill about all this?

1) The wealth of canon material that already exists between them (mixtapes, grief arcs, human weakness, colette parallels, sweeping reunions set to rousing musical cues, Amara supposedly having control over Dean but when in a room with her and Cas all Dean can do is call out Cas’ name over and over again in a broken voice - I honestly could go on all day.)

2) I don’t believe any of this was being done in bad faith.

I’m going to focus on 3 of the current writers, 2 of whom are openly queer and one of whom is the showrunner:

Berens

His first episode 9x06 was the one where Misha was instructed to play Cas as a “jilted lover” by Carver, the showrunner, and that episode was just romantic af. There’s so much staring through wistfully at each other it’s ridiculous. If you watch Berens episodes, it’s pretty clear that he considers Dean and Cas’ relationship vital, he often makes a point to place them in the same tier of importance as Sam and Dean’s relationship, and on top of that it seems to me he’s always just contextualised their relationship as having romantic elements. Whether it’s Colette parallels or mixtapes, Bobo’s always presented them a certain way.

Yockey

If you even glance at Yockey’s resume you’ll be able to see he’s a genius playwright whose work tends to focus on gay relationship dramas. Of course that in no way means that any relationship between two men that he writes has to be romantic, but what it does mean is that he understands when it is. It does mean that when he writes an episode like 12x10 (an ep about angels falling in love with humans), where Dean and Cas are bickering like a married couple and Ishim dubs the woman he was in love with his human weakness, whilst in the same breath calling Dean Cas’ human weakness, he’s doing it intentionally. That episode was a lot of things, well written, smart, beautifully crafted - but one thing it was not was subtle. Claiming Yockey didn’t mean it that way seems pretty absurd to me, and honestly, trying to claim Yockey - a gay man who writes nuanced LGBT+ stories - meant it as bait or whatever, is even worse. I mean that episode even had an exploration of how angels do not have genders like humans do by showing Cas in a female vessel and having him reiterate that angels are their own thing, regardless of whether they are in a male or female vessel at any given time.

That’s not even mentioning 13x05 and how ridiculously romantic that ep was. I mean I can’t - that final scene was ridiculous.

Andrew Dabb

And then we come to the showrunner himself. Dabb joined the show the same season that Cas did. He’s always placed a great deal of importance on Dean and Cas’ relationship, and always made sure to differentiate it from Sam and Cas. Even as early as 5x16, he made sure to emphasise how it was Dean who felt for Cas when he lost his faith in God (note: I don’t think there was any romantic intent there at the time but he was showing the depth and importance of their bond even back then.) 8x08 with the “talk to me” and the heart breaking conversation that followed that was cut short when Sam walked in. Dabb cares.

Dabb has also clearly been intrigued with the potentially romantic aspects of their relationship. I don’t know what his intentions have ever been with it, but at the very least, he has often seemed like he wanted to explore it. In 9x22 where Metatron delivers the “he’s in love with..,humanity” line, Dabb reportedly wrote that Metatron created Cas’ heaven as having tons of photos of naked Dean (which allegedly was axed by a higher up). His era led to Cas being given a vital, central role in the show and story like he’d never had before and also the escalation of the Dean/Cas romantic story like never before. In Dabb’s eps all of heaven and hell assume they’re banging with a demon even saying it to Cas’ face. Not to mention 12x23. Just all of it. Seriously.

I have no idea what TPTB intentions are, or ever have been, with Destiel as an eventual textual development, and yes I definitely believe that the right thing to do is for them to address it in some way. But I will say it bothers me a little when people throw it into the same category as a couple of other shows that shall not be named for the very important reason that the show has never invalidated any of the romantic elements of this relationship they’ve crafted between Dean and Cas, at least not post s8 and certainly not since Dabb took over around mid s11.

Kripke and Gamble definitely had a different approach that was pretty much just homoerotic subtext with the occasional (extremely on the nose) gay joke thrown in, but that’s not something Carver and Dabb did. However explicit they did/will get with it, every development between Dean and Cas has been anchored by serious emotional importance and nothing about their bond has ever been dismissed or downplayed as unimportant.

If there’s one thing I’m reasonably confident about is that that isn’t going to change. They’re not going to invalidate or “no homo” any of this by throwing Dean or Cas a last minute love interest. There’s a lot simmering under the surface between Dean and Cas right now, has been for a while now, and it’s definitely something they’re going to address if they’re going to give any kind of sensical end to their story.

Regardless of how explicit it winds up being - and again I want to reiterate, I do understand people’s pain and frustration if it winds up not being especially overt - this is a story that the people who created it cared about. The writers have treated in seriously and none of them ever mocked or dismissed any of the fans and are not evil villains cackling over a cauldron because they’ve tricked so many people with this story. Also, because I’ve been seeing some baffling commentary about intent - some from former Destiel shippers even - even if there isn’t a clear cut romantic endgame that makes it obvious to 100% of the GA, none of that invalidates all the romantic storytelling that has been, and continues to be, a part of the narrative for a long time now. It exists. To quote Misha “you are not crazy.” And don’t let anyone make you believe that you are.

TLDR: I have no idea what’s coming next and I’m sorry but I can’t give you any assurance that things are going to be wrapped up the way you or I would want them to be, but I can give you my long rambling thoughts about why I feel the way I do. Why it can still bug me that we can watch a story that if it was between a man and a woman would be blindingly clear to everyone but if it’s m/m (or even w/w) has constant denials levelled against it, but how at the same time I’m not constantly filled with rage or sadness about why it has played out the way it has.

So yeah, that’s how I’m going into the final season. There’s a lot more I wanted to say but looking at this wall of text I’m realising I’ve already gone on for far too long so I’ll stop now.

#spnloversstuff #asks #canon destiel #my spn thoughts

[gaygoetia]

Really sick of people bashing Widojest just because it isn't queer and acting like it would be some huge betrayal if Jester ends up with a man or Caleb ends up with a woman.

1. This isn't a regular TV show. It's a game played for fun that the cast have generously allowed us to watch and enjoy with them. They should be able to make whatever decisions they think are fun and interesting for the characters.

2. There are literally so many other opportunities for queerness in the show? Beau and Yasha are both canonically lesbians. Reani is bi, Keg is queer. It's not like this one ship becoming canon would erase any possibility of queer relationships down the line.

3. I know these characters are fictional but the dismissive way that people talk about Widojest as "another het pairing" feeds into the biphobic idea that bisexual people are less valid if they're not in a same gender relationship. Stop that shit.

4. What is with this weird sense of entitlement to decide what ships become canon? The cast don't owe you anything. They have no obligation to provide queer rep but they choose to anyway. It's ridiculous to act like them making this ship canon would be "letting down" the queer community.

5. Don't tag ur hate please. You can write what u want on your own blog but don't put it in the tag that people search through because they love that pairing.

I am a lesbian woman. I really enjoy Jester/Beau, Jester/Yasha and Caleb/Essek but my favourite pairing is Caleb/Jester because I love those characters and their dynamic and think a relationship between them would be the most interesting.

#Cr #Widojest

[go-diane-winchester]

If Misha and Jensen are not close friends, then how come Jensen enjoys the Jib panel so much.

I am having a quizzical conversation with a kid who ships destiel.  And even though the conversation is going nowhere, she asked me the following:

''This is a video editing by angel dove. They do not ship Destiel but love making edits for it and for the community. This is simply showing the friendship of Jensen and Misha

https://youtu.be/eF5kDrJBBYc

And please tell me, why the hell would Jensen go and and check kiss Misha if they didn’t feel comfortable around each other. Or basically laugh at everything Misha says. Jensen May get annoyed with Misha, but I still feel they are comfortable around each other. And also the fact that they get really close to whisper to each other. I’m not implying that they like each other romantically, I am simply saying that if I was not comfortable, there is no way in hell that I would be that open and happy around them.''

Now I can tell you genuinely, that this is making me smile, because this kid doesn't actually watch panels because she is busy with school work and extracurricular activities.  So what she is giving me as proof of a deep friendship and affection between Jensen and Misha, is a fan video.  I did a generational overview of Misha's fanbase and hypothecized that most of them are Gen Z or Gen Next.  An adult would never use a fan video to make a point.  Especially when I have seen the original videos this video was spliced from.  Anyone with editing skills can put together a video.  Heck, I could put together a video showing how Jensen hates Misha.  And I can use all kinds of footage to do that.  And some people might actually believe me.  Bad people thrive on their target's gullibility.  I am going to try to break this question down to the most minute detail, as I can.

Jibcon is generally the only panel that Jensen and Misha share.  In other words, they do a panel only once a year.  It is an event that they are paid to attend, and it is only one of three international events.  They tried Germany but that flopped.  Jibcon is financially the most successful international event.  From its inception till last year, it was seen as the destiel con.  That is how it was packaged, even thought Daniella [the organizer] changed her mind recently.  From the Hitch reading to the fake orgasm, everything was done to please the destiel fans.  Suddenly all that changed.  It had something to do with Jensen's breakdown in 2017.  I think Jared told Daniella off, because the next year, there was no Cockles panel and shipping questions got banned.  Daniella took to SM to lash out at hellers for attacking her because of the no shipping question rule. 

All that whispering and unicorn laughing that Jensen was doing all these years, was to quieten down the online abusers.  And then, he got threatened after Jaxcon, and flipped out during Jib 2017.  After that, for last years Jib panel, Jared joined.  Before you crash panels you plan it out.  People don't just do what they want during panels.  When one artist is on stage, the other is doing ops etc.  This time things changed.  Unless that is how the lineup has always been, where Jared does nothing back stage during the last panel.  Will someone notify me of this? 

Once upon a time, Jensen was Misha's friend.  Jensen is friends with a lot of people.  There was nothing deep or meaningful about their interaction.  In fact, despite the fact that Misha made a fool out of the guys during Minncon by lying that he had been mugged, there was still a friendship.  Jensen, not wanting to be perceived as a bigot, did the Jib panels all these years.  After the death threat, I noticed a change in his demeanor on stage.  The unicorn laughter is scarce.  Do you know what that means?  He was forcing and faking it.  Whenever Misha says something shippy like sharing shirts, Jensen outdoes him by talking about sharing underwear with Jared.  When they do Honocon, Jared takes his own time leaving the stage during the Cockles panel.  If anything, Jensen is starting to sense that Misha eggs his fans on.  This latest Bacchus king announcement might be an indicator too. 

Now either you can be shippy and say that Jared is obsessing over Jensen and jealous over Misha because obviously Misha is just the person, to make Jared feel ''inadequate'' right?  Realistically, I think Jensen is asking Jared to be a buffer.  And its not because of Misha personally, but that is because Jensen doesn't know everything.  It is because of Misha's fans and their online behavior.  Your side cant threaten to kill someone, and your only response is, ''but we are not all like that''.  It is an unoriginal dismissive response.  And we don't respect it anymore.  Police your side.  Write posts asking them to correct their behavior.  And stop asking for canon destiel, because other than sexually harassing Jensen, it achieves nothing else. 

Like most kids, you are not leaving destiel in fandom where it belongs.  You are not watching the show without reading meta and headcanon.  You are not watching the panels.  You are watching fan vids.  Fan vides are visual equivalents of meta and headcanon posts.  You do the show and the stars a great disservice when you don't respect the canon of the work that they do.  Meta writers are not part of SPN.  They are part of fandom.  They have, therefore, no authority to say something about an episode or scene.  All they are doing is giving their opinion.  And the younger lot just latches onto it, because they like how it sounds.  There is no endgame destiel.  The show is not queer baiting you.  Its called fan service.  They did the same thing with the wincest fans.  Sam and Dean are canonically soul mates.  Notice how the wincest fans ask for nothing.  The person who spoke about endgame destiel first, was fandom biggest meta liar.  And I wish I knew who that person was. 

Some of that footage is from YANA.  Honey, you don't want me opening that can of worms.  Believe me.  By the way, using campaign footage to prove a frivolous point is kind of not cool.

Stay in school, keep your nose clean, and enjoy your ship without expectations.

Excuse the typos that are going to inevitably make a guest appearance. 

#misha #jensen ackles #destiel #cockles #jenmish #jensen and misha #deancas #casdean #dean x castiel #castiel #cas #bi dean #dean is bi #dean and cas #jenmisheel #dean winchester #destiel headcanon #jdvm #misha collins #sam winchester #sam and dean #jensen and jared #wincest #supernatural #jared padalecki #padackles #performing dean #sabriel #sammy winchester #j2

[asagimeta]

Oh boy I just know I'm asking for it as I write this but I feel like as a Bi- especially one who leans towards women- I want to say something about "I Wish You Were Gay" or actually several things:

1. I, too, 100% thought this was Billie's coming out song when I first heard it a few weeks ago on YouTube (apparently her livestream version or something? I didn't realize it was even being released as a single until today) and was dissappointed that it wasn't

2. To all my wlw out there who want to use this as an anthem, I don't see a problem with this, just like I don't see it as a problem to ship Johnlock and Destiel even though those are both just as queerbaiting as this song, wlw anthems are in short supply just like queer ships and there's nothing wrong with liking something that isn't "canonical", HOWEVER, please don't forget that there ARE wlw anthems out there by ACTUAL QUEER GIRLS like Halsey and Hayley Kiyoko and those need plenty of support so if you haven't heard their music, give it a shot!

3. Here's the Tea- IWYWG isn't homophobic in the way that alot of people- particularly straight people- understand homophobia to be, because it isn't malicious and it isn't a slur, Billie certainly isn't saying anything bad about gay people and though I don't know alot about her outside of her music, I don't think she would ever do something that's homophobic for the sake of hurting people, I think she's just ill informed, IWYWG is the same brand of homophobic that Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl" is, it isn't malicious, it's dismissive, I've seen people compare it to when men see a girl who isn't interested in them and go "You must be a lesbian" and that's exactly the same tone, not only is it dismissive of someone's personal right to be attracted or not attracted to someone (wich is it's own, and in my opinion potentially larger issue) but it also minimizes queerness in a way that I'm not totally sure I can put into words, I still think IWYWG's larger issue is about not being able to accept someone's personal taste but there's definitely a homophobic curve there- one that lies in ignorance, not malice- that needs to be addressed

4. That said, Billie IS seventeen, this is a song she wrote when she was fourteen, and there has GOT to come a time when we stop punishing children for social missteps the same way we punish adults, I'm not saying that she doesn't need to be CORRECTED- she absolutely does, someone needs to explain to her (in a way better than I can, obviously) why this is An Issue, but she's also still not even old enough to vote so can we stop holding her to the same standards that we hold full grown adults to? And can we maybe focus on TEACHING people instead of PUNISHING them? I swear if I see the word "cancelled" one more time I'm going to break out into hives

5. Wich leads me to a much bigger point- The fact that IWYWG has seen the light of day past her initial livestream and CERTAINLY that it's going to be on her album/released as a single is something we need to be getting pissed at the ADULTS for, "When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?" is being released by Interscope records, wich means there IS an approval process before anything is released, it isn't like she's self-publishing her music, there is an adult out there (likely more than one) who saw this as an opportunity to boost her publicity through some really, really unfortunate means and THAT is who we need to be sending alot of our criticism to, yes Billie wrote it, but the fact that an adult APPROVED of it is where things go from "A seventeen-year-old made a bad choice" to "This is, in fact, malicious", because I will GURANTEE you that the people who decided not only to let it be on the record, but to release it as a single, had the intention of sniping some of the audience that creators like Halsey, Troye Sivan, and others have, because the truth is, Billie is a niche artist, she isn't going to be the next Taylor Swift who's welcome in Every Good Christian Household, she appeals most to a very certain audience.... a large number of who ARE queer, and no doubt the best way the record label saw to handle this was to look at the success people like Halsey and Troye and try to bank in on their audience, queerbaiting exists in TV for a reason and no doubt it's the same idea here, I also wouldn't be surprised if this was a case of "all publicity is good publicity" and they hoped that by getting Billie's name talked about more they would get more people to listen to her and more people to buy her album- if there is malice in this, it's on the adults, not on Billie

My overall opinion is this:

IWYWG was an ignorance-based, cringey mistake made by an outstandingly talented child, made much worse by the adults around her who most definitely know better, there's nothing wrong with liking IWYWG- particularly as a queer woman- just like there's nothing wrong with shipping ships that are clearly queerbaited, there just needs to be an understanding that it IS cringey and why, and similarly, there's nothing wrong with finding the song unlistanable, I can't stand "I Kissed A Girl" because as a bisexual it frustrates me to hear the biggest stereotypes about my sexuality crammed into a song by some straight girl, so trust me, I get it, Billie needs to understand why people are upset and take that seriously, but people also need to be willing to actually teach her things- especially given her age- instead of just screaming "CANCELLED" and clobbering her over the head every single time she steps off the right track

In general, "cancel culture" needs to chill the fuck out, there's definitely a place for it- when people turn out to be monsters like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby- but we can't completely shut down every person who says something mildly offensive or gives their dog the wrong brand of dog food without atleast trying to act like human beings about it and TEACH them first

Let's give Billie an actual full year of being able to see R rated movies without adult supervision before we decide how she's going to act for her entire life ok?

#other #Billie Eilish #I'm still buying WWAFAWDWG

[fandomshatepeopleofcolor]

I never said it was as BAD as that, or that was the same thing, just the way you talk about it, saying "it's not really incest" sounds like "OH they're not really brothers" and stuff like that. Not that their relationship is the same as a 16 yr old and an adult. Also the way that you refuse to even admit there might be some truth is just like the way those people talk. I'm not asking you to stop shipping it, but to stop saying stuff like how they aren't really siblings + it's not really incest

Because every time somebody brings up "it makes me uncomfortable" or anything like that you jump to prove it's not, and shit like that and won't even accept it was a bad writing choice in the first place. All I'm asking is you stop that? Just. Just say something like you still like the ship but you hear what they're saying. Call them out if they say something racist. But stop the rest of it please.

I don’t even ship it... (waiting for my queer son and queer daughter Ezra and Kiersey play the roles and then maybe I’ll pay attention) This isn’t like me defending something I like so please don’t dismiss it that way.Don’t ship anything that’s going to be unhealthy for you. I already said that, like twice.I have no idea why you’re turning this into a “you don’t think adopted families are real families” situation. They don’t consider themselves related. Barry was not adopted by the West family. He and Iris do not view each other as siblings. He lived with them for maybe around 4 years in his teens. He loves her and wants to be with her romantically. And you were upset that I’m “excusing” that, your words, and I think that’s really a bizarre mentality.You are making false comparisons though. Especially by bringing up ships that aren’t even canon to compare with this one that is.If you didn’t come here to discuss the way racist fans find every angle to attack this ship I don’t know why you came in here asking for our permission not to ship it in the first place. You don’t need our permission. If you know this is not a good healthy ship for you to look at for whatever personal reasons then please do what you need to do to take care of yourself. Fourth time I’ve said that now.

- mod g

[finn-shitposts]

Just a random l*ki rant so i get the annoyance out my head dont rb lmao

Obviously this post isnt about every loki stan i just keep seeing posts that piss me off so i had to yell. This is a bit generalized but know its probably not aimed at you, its at a small but loud minority of frustrating marvel stans

You know im over it, im done lookin for memes and gifs to rb after each episode cos everyones arguing so much sksksk

Like a solid chunk is alligator memes and pretty gifsets which is nicr but theres just so much twitter flavoured arguing and like opinion based arguements cloaked as morality that i jsut. H.

For me, id be just as happy seeing loki find recognition and self love through sylvie and learn that hes capable of change from mobius then remain platonic them both as Id be seeing him date either or both of them (ot3 usually solves all problems for me). I just enjoy the way the interpersonal bonds are written between them all no matter the flavour of it yknow sksksk?

But people online are calling it disgusting to even ship sylvie and loki for either "heteronormativity cos bisexual ppl that come out on screen should date ppl of the same gender or theyre not really bi after all" (as a bi man. This is just utter bullshit im too tired to get into it) or "i interpret them as siblings so if you ship them youre automaitcally into incest" and im sat here w past trauma regarding that like. Hm. Really bad take just an awful take guys. Like i get that most relationships or bonds are forced into het romances 90% on tv and its frustrating when all you want is a friendship or a siblinf type relationship but like you can express that without sending death threats to the actors and yelling at casual watchers who kinda like the ship. Plus yall gotta stop playing the 'its more moral to ship mobius and loki, cos theyre not siblings' bitch neither are loki and sylvie theyre the same person, not related and also clearly distinct individuals only with similar experienves. You can dislike somethinf and just say you dislike it you dont have to assign a moral righteousness to it.

Also i shipped loki and mobius before i did sylvie and loki, and i love them equally but like. Do you ever get the thing where when you were younger and had gay ships that were massively popular in fandom and it was super fun but then like 4 years later when you actually come out as queer youre like huh, the fanon surrounding that ship was mostly made by straight 15yr old girls that found mlm hot and its not Great. Cos i just get annoyed reading deep analysis posts like "when sylvie is mentioned loki doesnt react he clearly doesnt like her much but when mobius is mentioned here are all his micro reactions and the meanings of it that prove that theyre in love" and like. I get reading into subtext and i get wanting canon gay ships, I mean i fucking put up w supernatural skskksks but this is bordering more on the vibes of like when ppl ship idk like idols/rpf and read way too much into every glance and find any way to dismiss and explain away the actual person theyre dating irl? Or like when you read fanfics where someone clearly hates a female character just cos she gets in the way of their fave gay ship and you just have to sigh like guys. Please.

All this being said, i ship lokius i love mr dilf owen wilson i just get frustrated that people have to shit on one character or relationship to uplift their faves, pls can we not all just get along and be civil i beg this isnt twitter act normal. What am i saying these are marvel stans ,.

Anyway from now im just gonna enjoy loki on my own and sit with my personal thoughts and headcanons without checking tumblr cos yall are acting like twitter and its unbearable, i dont need that in my life. Like I thought itd be fun cos tumblr is usually all about selfcest and poly ships and whatnot but yall are just spewing bad takes lmao

Ill be memeless but ill be much happier not getting pissed off at every third post on the tag, im just gonna ship loki/mobius/sylvie in my own corner and avoid the internet on wednesdays, ✌️

#god if you read all that im so sorry for you sjsksjjs. #i just had to get it out cos it was causing me brainrot to keep thinking about it smsksm #not even tagging this #just uh #dont rb #fandom wank