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eemoo1o-tfrmoo · 9 months

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Snotlout Jorgenson and the art of defiance*, defamation, and daddy issues

* I will be including his demeanour as a doormat alongside this. I will not be discussing his dissipation in this post as well.

Today, I will be studying Snotlout in (RTTE) and his issues with rule abiding and control management and how his relationship with his father affects this.

The episodes in particular I will be deriving my sources from are:

Reign of Fireworms (1x07)

Team Astrid (2x01)

And, Darkest Night (6x10)

Additionally, an episode I will also be looking at, though only briefly, includes:

Big Man on Berk (1x05)

Firstly, we look at Reign of Fireworms for his acts of defiance towards leadership, with his vast background of defying Hiccup in reference.

(Wow, Tumblr really ate the quality on my already crunchy gif.)

Admittedly, this is a shy example in comparison to anything else I could have picked. Snotlout is known for defying orders and challenging leadership (with Hiccup and later Astrid respectively). However, what makes this episode so different is how Snotlout is so indecisive over the twins’ leadership. Allow me to put a pin in that for later.

Unlike other instances of rejecting leadership, Snotlout reacts similarly to the other riders over the twins’ new roles as Island Rulers, but the main difference between Snotlout and the others is that Snotlout seems to hold no filter over the matter, which is shown with how he is the first to protest, insult, attempt to rebel, and even propose to off the twins.

However, unlike the rest of the riders, Snotlout’s perspective on the twins’ leadership is quick to change when —

The twins give him a job that he likes: “sergeant at arms”.

This job is significant, and as such a role of power. This is seen throughout the episode where Snotlout is the one to throw all of the other riders (save from the twins, but eventually including himself) in jail.

Snotlout is the only one of the riders (with perhaps the exception being Fishlegs, but we don’t see much of that) to take his job, and the twins’ ridiculous rules, the most seriously.

However, once he throws himself in prison — claiming that “he was framed” — he is quick to side with the other riders’ rebellion again.

The main rule that Snotlout is seen sticking to most is the “no S” rule. At first, he seems adverse, with the twins calling for his as “Notlout”, and him completely missing the point, asking who that is and shrugging.

However, once fully embracing his role as “egeant at arm”, Snotlout is heard attempting to remove any S’s from his speech as often as he can. Until he throws himself in jail.

The “throwing himself in jail” aspect of the episode is only used to get the riders all together again, and as a gag, but if we look at it more earnestly it’s sort of telling of how seriously Snotlout took the role and how he was playing into the role so much that he became a different person from his regular self.

Such evidence could be seen in how he claims “I was framed!” instead of “I wa framed!”.

I’m not implying that I think Snotlout has DID, but I am implying that I think his father (and other adults of Berk) — and the first movie — has something to do with this.

As far as I recall, in the first movie, Snotlout was the leader of the teens, and bully of Hiccup. I think it’s also implied that he’s the teen (or all of the teens are, excluding Hiccup) who’s well revered as being what a Viking should be for being strong and hard-headed, but now those are the characteristics that many on Berk frown upon him for. (The civilians even cheered for his death in the Defenders of Berk finale — another gag at Snotlout’s expense.)

I believe it’s also said or at least implied in the first film that Hiccup wants to be like the other kids, specifically Snotlout, and that Snotlout and Astrid were a thing, though the latter seems more expendable for my point to be made.

Now, Thawfest seems to be the only place where Snotlout can prevail over Hiccup (resented family name aside), and as such live up to his father’s expectations to some degree. We even see this inferred with how Snotlout is panicking in the final race over how “he can’t lose”.

We move onto the Defamation element of my analysis, with the few points I’d just made, and as such we skip to the episode Darkest Night.

In this episode, each of the riders (with the exception of Astrid and Hiccup) pitch each of their ideal realities if they’d never gone to Dragon’s Edge.

In Snotlout’s reality (after intruding on the ending of Fishlegs’) is one where he is promoted from Berk’s official weapon tester to their official weapon inventor.

Comparatively, this would be like a drug tester suddenly becoming a pharmacist, or a stunt man inexplicably becoming a choreographer.

The original job (weapon tester) in and of itself is telling of how Berk now views Snotlout. And while no one really mentions how dangerous or implicative the job actually is, we can see for ourselves the danger the job includes in both the twins’ reality and Race to the Edge’s first episode (as the twins’ reality starts off with a clip from the first episode where they place a wheelbarrow of sharp objects next to Snotlout’s pile of pillows whilst he’s testing out a catapult).

I don’t think this job would have been distributed to anyone smart enough to decline it, or at least well-liked enough to dissuade the distributor of said job to offer it to that person. As such, the job is very implicative in how Berk views Snotlout, whether he’s aware of it or not.

Now, in the episode, with the promotion Snotlout gives himself, he emerges from an explosion which is reminiscent of how the first film introduces the rest of the teens, only this time Snotlout is alone.

Unlike the others’ unrealistic realities, Snotlout’s is more like a fantasy than anything.

Not only does this fantasy feed into Snotlout’s egotistical point of view (as this is entirely centric on him, and other characters that are shown in this fantasy don’t pass the Snotlout-based Bechdel test), but we are also reminded of the time when Snotlout was well-liked: the first film, before Berk befriended dragons (though the dragons are still their friends in Snotlout’s fantasy, because as defamed as Snotlout’s image now is in contrast, I don’t think he’d give up Hookfang for the world — inexplicable explosion in the beginning of his fantasy aside), and even in Astrid’s alternate timeline where Berk hadn’t befriended dragons, and Snotlout is also well-liked by Stoick and others.

Firstly, Snotlout states that he invents this superweapon, though what is depicted is an unimaginatively unusable combination of all pre-existing weapons, though in the fantasy everyone adores the ‘invention’. I have the sense that while this isn’t stated to compete with Hiccup’s fire-sword, it is an attempt, because in the real world Hiccup inadvertently overshadows Snotlout in every possible aspect. Even Thawfest, however fleetingly.

In Snotlout’s fantasy, Gobber — who is very infamous for not taking Snotlout seriously or viewing him with any high regards — is the first to interact with Snotlout the Inventor by being completely enamoured with his invention, and praising him profusely on it.

When Hookfang appears in the fantasy just after, his tongue is hanging just marginally out of his mouth and his pupils are large and rotund, and he flies off whilst allowing Snotlout to remain standing on him.

The pupils of a dragon are shown time and time again to be easy tells of their mood. Narrow for hostile or under the influence of mind control (via Death Songs, Bewilderbeasts, Red/Blue/Green Deaths, so on), and wide/large for comfortable, adoring or even playful, as well as under the influence of dragon nip.

However, what makes Hookfang’s expression here most odd — as fantastical as it is — isn’t the very adoring way it’s depicted, but rather the shape of his pupils. We’ve seen Hookfang’s pupils dilated before, but they aren’t ever as round as they are here.

The dragon with the roundest and largest pupils that we know of is actually Toothless (the Night Fury, and as such the Light Fury). While Toothless’ pupils go a bit squarer as the movie series goes on, in the way they are depicted in Race to the Edge they are round, and as such so are Hookfang’s here.

This is obviously another way of showing that Snotlout wants what Hiccup has. In a way, he wants Hookfang to see him like Toothless sees Hiccup.

(A note worth adding us that in Snotlout’s fantasy, there’s even a metal statue of himself on Hookfang which he kisses the cheek of. This feeds into the egotistical side of things, but also serves as a callback to the Riders of Berk episode When Lightning Strikes.)

There’s also this golden, smoky hue over Snotlout’s fantasy which is lacking in the others’ concepts for an alternate reality, which perhaps could symbolise how this is an ideal, self-serving idea, and that these would have been golden memories for Snotlout, if they were to exist.

Next, we see Astrid fawning over Snotlout and then, the moment he is to land, his father scoops him up and says “You make me proud to be a Jorgenson, boyo!”, which is a recurring theme in Race to the Edge with how Snotlout expresses a true desire to hear this.

Which brings us, briefly, back to season one, with the episode Big Man On Berk.

In short, as stated in @jesse-the-writer’s post here, Snotlout seeks validation from men he deems strong, such as Thor and Dagur, due to his faulty relationship with his father.

He idolises them (Dagur more so in and before Riders and Defenders of Berk than after), in a manner similar to how he idolises his father, and in doing so he ignores how they write him off (Thor and Dagur), or forget his name countless times after being corrected (Dagur), or even insult his dragon (Thor) by laughing it off awkwardly and sometimes agreeing.

And all of the above is reminiscent of how Spitelout treats him (mostly in Riders and Defenders of Berk, but in a few instances of Race to the Edge also).

Psychoanalytically, the way parents treat their child pays a big role in how they view and act in relationships. This source focuses on romantic relationships, however some key elements can be attributed to platonic relationships, also.

“For instance, if your parents were not very affectionate and hardly ever hugged or kissed you, you may have an aversion to affection as an adult.”

I recall in the Defenders of Berk episode Scauldy, that when Astrid finally returns Snotlout’s affections/serial flirting (albeit in an insincere but well-acted way), Snotlout is immediately deterred and as such disgusted by her advances.

This is seen again with Ruffnut in the second and third film, and how he is quick to move on from and disregard her when she finally shows interest (albeit in both him and Fishlegs).

This shows that Snotlout actively pursues relationships (assumably romantic) where he is led to believe that his affections will not be returned or where they outright are not. Seeing as Spitelout, too, is not very affectionate, this could be a direct cause to Snotlout’s inability to find mutual affection very favourable or at the very least pleasant.

(A note worth mentioning is that in the season six episode Mi Amore Wing, Snotlout is the most visibly disgusted by the extreme affection shared between Mala and Dagur.)

Now, the most important question: is Snotlout aware of his father’s bad parenting? For that we go to the episode Team Astrid.

(The true villain of How To Train Your Dragon was Hiccup all along.)

Well, of course he is.

I think there’s something to be said for the change in Snotlout’s design. I won’t go too much into the theory here, but when Snotlout was younger he looked more like his father which shows that back then he was probably more blindsided to his father’s bad parenting ethics.

However, now that he is older he looks less like his father (squarer jaw, lighter skin, less freckles, shifted teeth), albeit still related in some way, which could be seen as a metaphor for how Snotlout is still looking up to his father, but is more aware than what he once was about what is so inherently wrong in their relationship (if not directly).

(This theory of mine also includes the idea as to why Spitelout has Deadly Nadder over a Monsteous Nightmare, which is briefly explained in the tags of this post here.)

As such, Snotlout clearly wants revenge that “the world owes him” (a line which could also double as him being owed for passing this opportunity up to actually listen to one of Hiccup’s orders, a trait which he gets better at in most instances as Race to the Edge goes on).

The way that Snotlout also puts emphasis on “I” and “him” here also implies that this is what Spitelout’s influence and presence over him is: a means to correct and shape him in a way that puts him down and never allows him to meet expectations, at least not fully. As such, this affects his ego and desire to be known, seen, as well as his view on relationships that hold a mutually professed affection whilst he still craves and shows a longing for his father’s approval and praise which deters him from anyone else’s (causing him to seek out relationships that are not mutually beneficial).

However, while I believe that Snotlout and Spitelout’s relationship isn’t beneficial to either parties, and as such toxic but not purposefully so (in fact I can imagine Spitelout’s relationship with his own father having been quite similar, but there is no evidence to support this, as far as I recall), I do not believe that it is inherently parasitic (otherwise I would be quoting the twins’ ramble about such relationships from Living on the Edge).

To sum up this analysis, I bring you these points:

Defamation: Snotlout was once well-liked amongst other Berkians for being strong and courageous but since Hiccup befriended the dragons Snotlout has since been pushed aside for the reasons he was once held in high esteem for.

As such, this makes him envious of Hiccup, and Hiccup’s relationship with Toothless, as Hiccup is now the one that everyone likes.

Defiance: This means that he is all too willing to prove and make a fool of himself due to this as well as trying to show to his father that he can amount to his expectations, and as such disregard most orders.

This makes Snotlout very willing to abide rules when he his put in a position of power above others, as seen in Reign of Fireworms. However he can sometimes get too carried away and disassociate himself from the role the more seriously he takes it.

Daddy issues: His and his father’s relationship is the reason why he chases relationships that treat him as the underdog despite his own ego, that either have him pursuing the forever unreciprocated (i.e. Astrid, and later Ruffnut) or even those that he idolises but is always disregarded (like Thor and Dagur), which could be seen as him trying to recreate his and his father’s relationship or perhaps search for the affection he has never properly received, but is immediately deterred once potentially finding or receiving it.

A part of Snotlout sees what is wrong with his and his father’s relationship, as seen with how he wishes to enact revenge through treating his father as he did him.

I think that the damage caused to Snotlout and his relationship with his father isn’t entirely reversible, I do believe that their relationship could reform. However, I don’t think them finding a means of doing so is entirely possible.

#httyd #race to the edge #snotlout jorgenson #character analysis #spitelout jorgenson #big man on berk #thor bonecrusher #reign of fireworms #team astrid #darkest night #analysis #my analyses #fuck spitelout #spitelout neutral post #hookfang #gifs #original post

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charalysis · 3 months

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GoW: Modi

I am certain by now a handful have seen my replies to that post about Modi from another poster, but I would like to take the time to put together a comprehensive post about my opinions on Modi, my personal analysis, and general thoughts. Without too many "what ifs" about his potential as a person or character, and minimal speculation where possible.

So in this post we will be looking at Modi's presentation of himself in the 2018 game, what others say of him in Ragnarok, and his relationships with family as are observable in game. I will be injecting my personal views on the character, obviously, similar to the Magni post.

When we are introduced to Modi alongside his older brother Magni. Physically, Modi is the smaller of the two, having inherited less of the physical giant qualities than Magni. However, between them, Modi is basically a copy of Thor. His hair, eyes, and build come right from Thor, for better or worse. Usually worse, it seems.

Modi is very much the stereotype of an ignored middle child, with the high achievement older brother, and baby princess sister. Modi is mentioned last repeatedly by Thor, and I do fully believe that it has something to do with how he looks, and not necessarily his behavior.

It's repeatedly mentioned that Magni was the favored son, getting all the credit for rescuing Thor from rubble, when it was both him and Modi. Magni was the heir to Mjolnir for the longest time, being stronger, smarter, and generally "Better" than Modi. Part of this is because Magni is "blonder", according to Mimir. I mentioned in my Magni post that this favoritism could come from association to Sif, who was likely seen as a fine addition to the family, and her being blonde made others associate the blonde Magni with her.

Modi looking like Thor and bearing what seems to be the brunt of the abuse from Thor could be tied together. Modi even tries to emulate his father's clothing and tattoos. Even the mace he has, which is not a typical Norse weapon, if it was at all, mimics the appearance of Mjolnir.

Thor has intense feelings of self hate, referring to himself often as a destroyer, and he even says all he's good for is "pissing mead and killing".

Modi possibly reminds Thor of himself.

The disdain he feels towards Modi is likely not really about Modi himself, and more about Thor. Because it does seem he loved Modi, even if he couldn't express it due to his own hang ups.

It's clear Modi admires his father, dressing similar to him, styling his hair and beard similar to his, trying to emulate his hammer as best he can... And it seems up to the end, he was trying to make Thor see him and appreciate him and his efforts.

We also need to look at Modi's upbringing.

Thor and Sif were absent in the boys' childhoods from what we understand. They were drunk and abusive (Sif and Thor do recall kinder memories with the boys when they were young, but generally they seemed to be absent). This likely left Magni, a child himself, to fend for himself and tend to Modi. Modi likely spent a good chunk of his childhood with Magni.

He does clearly love his brother, panicking and being distraught when Magni is killed, implying they're somewhat close, at least for Modi.

Being raised by another child wouldn't have given Modi a good foundation for emotional regulation, which could very well explain his poor emotional control post Magni's death (along with fear around Thor's reaction of course).

However, being basically raised by Magni likely meant he was also abused by him, as Magni would likely try to imitate what Thor did, for better or worse. On top of the abuse he suffered growing up, Odin ensured the environment he grew up in wasn't a free one. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Modi, and by extension Magni of course, were subjected to very strict rules by Thor because of Odin. Odin did not like his grandsons, calling them useless in the first interaction we have with him in the game.

It's quite likely Modi had severe control issues.

Living in the shadow of your older brother, having to do what he and your parents demand, being beaten repeatedly... It's not surprising to me that Modi seems aimless and a little lost after Magni dies. And it would explain his decision to attempt to kidnap Atreus and force him to be his new brother.

Modi wanted someone he could control for once, someone small and vulnerable like he was as a child. Because you know Thrúd was off limits in that regard.

Thor would have killed Modi had Modi done anything beyond brotherly teasing and messing about. (For the record, I think Modi treated Thrúd well, given the fact that it seems she misses him. I think Modi saw his tiny sister and wanted to be for her the brother he didn't have growing up. Modi's intentions, perceived or no, with Atreus as "his new brother" are formed in terror and heightened emotion.)

Fear seems to actually be a major component in Modi's character.

Let's examine his weapons and fighting style first.

Modi sports the mace and shield. The mace rarely is used in actual attacks, aside from lighting. He primarily bangs on the shield with it to summon his lighting and presumably to taunt. Where Magni charges in, Modi seems to try and keep his distance and remain defensive. Lighting lands sporadically around him, adding yet another shield of sorts to hide behind. He does not like facing things head on like his brother. I'd even argue that in the fight with him and Magni, he uses Magni as a shield to get to Atreus, letting the older Aesir attack Atreus's shield, Kratos.

We can also examine this defensive behavior in how he talks to others.

He's wildly, and even unnecessarily abrasive. He seems to enjoy goading people, particularly Atreus when face to face with the boy. He seems to put up a front of being confident and cocky, but I don't think he really is. It's more likely he's emulating the older or more favored relatives around him. Thor's combat confidence (which is well earned on Thor's part because he is a tough one to fight), Baldur's taunts and goading, and possibly even something of Magni's cockiness.

In his last moments, in his second to last encounter, when Magni dies... In those moments we see the facade slip. We see him for what he is: a cowering little boy.

Tl;Dr: Modi, like Magni, is a victim of abuse. There is no denying that, especially as one of his last experiences was being beaten by his father. But he was just as willing and likely to perpetuate the abuse because it's what he knew and he wanted to take out his grievances on someone smaller than him. He's a brat and a bit of a creep. But it is also very likely that inside, he is just a kid trying to emulate his idol, his father

#character analysis #gow ragnarok #long post #gow modi #god of war 2018 #god of war #modi thorson #modi #magni thorson #thor odinson #gow atreus

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superectojazzmage · 4 months

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Of everything that happens in the new issue of Immortal Thor, this scene stands out the most to me as something I feel will be one of the most important scenes of both the issue and the run as a whole.

In the very beginning of gods, of Earth, of humanity, of stories, among the very first incarnations of the archetypes that Thor and Loki embody - the mighty warrior and the devious trickster - see each other and immediately get into a fight out of sheer revulsion of everything their twin stands for.

Good vs evil. Light vs dark. Order vs chaos. Brawn vs brain. Control vs freedom. Life vs death. Fate vs choice. Peace vs war. Mundanity vs magic. Law vs crime. Creation vs destruction. Love vs hate. And many more. Clashing opposites, battling for supremacy. A cycle of violence and debate passed down the generations, from father to son, mentor to student, predecessor to successor, and so on. Brother waging battle against brother just to prove a point, to fulfill their role in the story. An ideological blood feud applied to archetypes and titles and narratives. Trickling all the way down into it's present expression... Thor and Loki.

Already it's clear that cycles of this sort are going to be a very large theme of Immortal Thor. The concept of recurrences and stories being retold over the years have been talked about a lot by the narrator. The comic goes to great lengths to draw attention to how Thor and his cast and, by extension, their own world in the form of comics are falling into patterns that transcend through time. And I feel that's going to be the crux of a great deal of the plot.

Loki hates the cycle. In their roles as both the goddess of stories and the god of mischief, they abhor stagnation and repetition. They want to be free of the roles "assigned" by the narrative. They want to be free of the debate, the never-ending battle of good and evil that ha destroyed their family time and again. Thor would want to be free of it too, if he realized he were part of it. But he struggles to do so. He's a rock in the sea of time. A god among mortals, a child of two worlds watching in confusion and grief as his human friends age and change and die around him while his divine brothers and sisters continue to stay the same. In this, they are trying to do what Gaea wanted to do but couldn't; to break the cycle.

Toranos and Utgard-Loki don't want to break the cycle. They ARE the cycle. Embodiments of the sins of the forefathers carrying down to their children. Representations of the archetypes of Thors and Lokis at their absolute worst, shorn of all true depth and compassion and true belief in their aspects in favor of continuing the godforsaken argument. Shades of the old festering in the blood of the young, infesting them with their baggage, holding them back from growing better, and lashing out at them when the new generations fail to meet the standards of the elders. And they may not even realize they're doing so.

This isn't the first time this theme has come up in Al Ewing's work.

Immortal Hulk presents the conflict between the Hulk and his archenemy, the Leader, as a similar generational feud. Both in a literal familial sense (the Banner and Sterns families being divided and warring after Robert and Samuel Sterns turn on each other) and a larger ideological sense (people using the power of gamma for good or ill, going all the way to the first Hulk being born from a leader's selfish desire to misuse magic as a tool of conquest). Sometimes the thoughtful man is the hero, sometimes the brute is. But they always fight. Senselessly and pointlessly. And the Green Door and the horror it brings was only stopped... by breaking the cycle. By defying it. By Hulk choosing to never sink to Leader's level, or those of his predecessors, and instead choose to forgive.

And Ewing makes clear cycles and wars spanning centuries like this are common in the Marvel Universe. The Eternity Mask is passed down generations of men and women, always fighting for freedom against those who would deny it. Nick Fury passes his name and identity and role onto his son. There's always an Ant Man, inheriting their predecessor's problems, and there's always an Ultron, trying to claim dominion. Arakko and Krakoa alike are divided between those who hold to the old ways and those who seek new ways. Ebony and Ivory Kings do their work, from within and without. On and on, the wheels turn.

It even goes back to the very beginning. To prior multiverses. All tracing back to the first super battle, the first superhero and first supervillain - Lifebringer-One and Anti-All, the cosmic knight and the entropic dragon - fighting for the fate of the nascent world.

Effectively, Ewing views and represents the narratives of superhero comics as we know them, as a sort of repeating song. The metatextual commentary is that all this has happened before and will happen again, because humanity will always dream of heroes battling monsters. There will always be a knight and a dragon. A warrior and a trickster. A superhero and a supervillain.

But he also acknowledges how this can go too far. How comics can fall into stagnating loops of repeating stories and stall status quos. Spider-Men being denied their stories because editors want to live in nostalgia instead of the now. X-Men getting their progress towards coexistence undone because writers can't handle change.

And this is all what Immortal Thor is about and will be about. The struggle for balance between opposites and extremes. Cyclical narratives and worlds. Ideas and stories being inherited and passed on. And all of it a commentary on comic books themselves and their history and role in culture.

It's brilliant stuff.

#immortal thor #the immortal thor #thor #mighty thor #thor odinson #loki #loki laufeyson #marvel #marvel comics #marvel 616 #earth 616 #marvel universe #al ewing #comic books #comics #media analysis #character analysis

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wildglitch · 2 days

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Side tangent about Thor

This was gonna be in the main post explaining what the others are up to in my Wiz!Au but something possesed me while writing Thor's part and I ended up with this bit. This honestly can apply to Thor's character as a whole so Im posting this by itself. You can read this as a Thor character analisis and his treatment in fanfiction, if you ignore the small part that refrences the AU. Or you can read this as a AU post and a little snippit of the bigger post Im making, either is fine.

- Fanon Thor and Canon Thor dont really line up like- at all, but neither dose early MCU Thor with later MCU Thor, which sucks. I plan for him to act like pre snap angry Thor, but more calm because he now knows that Loki is alive and that is grounding him.

Thor isnt dumb, and I hate how Fanon have this warped vision of him being a stupid bumbling idiot that dosent know anything about anything. I get that he is new to Earth and stuff but come on, they guy can talk just fine. Thor is a smart and strong, but hes also a bit care free, goofy and caring, hes an empath. That show in the way he is arguably hit the hardest with the snap. Hes just trying to do good and live up to the responsibility put on him as king, but hes also wild and free as we see him going on adventures saving people and even giving his title of king to valkery later on. Thor is a King just trying to do good and protect the people he loves.

Thor understands the situation, and has a soul goal in mind along side the other thousand angry and desprate throughs running through it. Find Loki. Because if he can do that on thing, he knows he will be able to do everything else and save the people he love. Thor is a hero through and through. He will protect anyone and everyone he finds along the way, being a free spirit that cant help but save people in need be it from danger or an unjust systum. These are all things we see in his character in the movies, and it sucks that it gets ignored like that.

I know that its a bit hard to write for MCU Thor sometimes because his character can be a bit inconsistant, but Thor isnt dumb, hes just kind.

#thor #thor odinson #character analysis #au talk #wiz!au #kinda #he is not dumb #pls stop mischaracterizing him so much #ita fine to an extent but if your righting MCU Thor then at least keep some of his characteristisc #dont just make him and idiot

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farsight-the-char · 5 months

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The Worthy, The Adopted Sons, Oath Brothers, Beloved of the Land and People.

Beta Ray Bill and Yamato Odenkin.

....

Do You Understand?

...

From The Immortal Thor issue 4, One Piece issue 994

#one piece #yamato odenkin #beta ray bill #marvel #the immortal thor #character analysis #yamato one piece #this would make Momonosuke Thor?#probably #...............#I probably could have used a Simonson panel and I might make this post again With a fitting Simonson panel #.................#I am so tempted to infodump about Bill #Love Bill #everyone should know about Bill #Paladins #Samurai

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martianbugsbunny · 5 months

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Personally i doubt thor knows loki loves him

U know what I'm gonna take the challenge on this one. Now, this post will only discuss their relationship in the movies before Ragnarok, because I don't really like that movie and I think it did a great disservice to both the characters and their relationship; the brightest and best of them comes from Thor, Avengers, and Dark World in my opinion, so I will be talking about what I love rather than what I have at best apathy for. Sticking it under the cut (it got looooong because I love to think about their dynamic), so if you want my opinion, read on, and if you've seen enough opinions for a lifetime and don't want any more, scrumble away and have a lovely day

Okay so let's start with Thor. In the beginning of that movie, there is absolutely no doubt in Thor's heart that Loki loves him, and here's why: Thor is an arrogant man who is largely blind to the things he doesn't agree with or understand. He has this mentality of other people just being made to love and adore him, because he's the future warrior king of Asgard, he's the golden boy, and because Asgard's people really do love and adore him, so his arrogance is only being confirmed by other people's actions. And of course, there's nobody who should love and adore Thor more than his brother, right?

Now, here's where I want to digress for a minute to talk about how incredibly unhealthy their relationship is. Thor kind of has the same outlook that Loki expresses in Avengers, that people are beneath him, and that's why they should all be looking up to him with awe and praise, and that extends even to his own brother. He tells Loki to mind his place and kind of brushes off his advice, because even though they're brothers and that's the closest anyone could get to being his equal, it's still not enough. Thor views Loki as another person who is beneath him, but who ultimately can't do anything but look up to him and love him.

This is an illusion.

Loki does love Thor. Their relationship, with how complicated and messy it is, only works if they truly love each other, and they do. But it's not the blind, adulating love that Thor expects. It's a jealous, aching love. Loki craves being equal to Thor, a problem that's only exacerbated by the way Thor denies him that position. He craves to be loved as he's assumed to love. And the problem with a love like that is how quickly it can turn. If Thor won't give Loki the affection he needs, then Loki isn't going to show Thor affection the way Thor wants him to, either.

That first movie is in multiple ways a brutal awakening for Thor. He's not the man his father wants him to be. His entire life he's been training to be king and then that future seems like it's been ripped away from him. He has his power and then it's all gone. And his brother, this person around whom he's constructed a narrative of almost reverent adoration, suddenly turns against him, tries to keep him in exile and then to kill him, tries to take the life that was promised to Thor. That looks absolutely nothing like the love Thor has believed Loki feels for him.

I would feel some doubt at that point. I think anyone would. My sibling tried to kill me. Does he still love me? Did he ever love me?

And to add to that natural doubt, Thor doesn't understand Loki. He never really has. He doesn't know what it's like to be, as Loki says later, living in the shade of someone else's greatness, the trickster brother who's never really trusted, let alone lauded. And correct me if I'm wrong, but even by the end of Thor, he doesn't know what really tipped Loki off the deep end. He doesn't know that Loki's just found out he's a Jotun in a land of Asgardians, that he's the very thing he's been brought up to hate and fear, so Thor doesn't understand why Loki is acting so erratically, which must compound the doubt for him. From his point of view it's like a light switch flicked and now Loki's trying to kill him, which increases the did he ever? question. Was it always a facade? And I don't think Thor ever quite realizes the illusion he built around Loki, the difference between his expectations and reality to begin with, so he also wouldn't be seeing that it's not quite instantaneous, that there were years of building resentment and longing that contributed to the tipping point of Loki's changed behavior.

So by the end of Thor, yes, he's got to be wondering if Loki loved him.

But when Thor appears in Avengers, do you remember what plea he makes? He says I grieved for you, I want you to come home. That's not the kind of thing you say to someone you think doesn't care about you. That's a plea to the heart. That's Thor trying to get to the love he knows is in there somewhere, behind everything else that's built up around Loki's heart; that's Thor saying I know you still love me, I don't know what changed, but please let our bond be enough to fix it. Whatever he's been thinking about between the events of those two movies, he's moved past that doubt enough to think maybe Loki's love for him will be enough to bring him home, even if some part of him expects Loki to say no anyway. We know that in the interim he learned of Loki's status as a Jotun, so maybe Thor's even begun to try to understand. Maybe he's been thinking about the fact that life got very hard and very confusing for Loki very suddenly, and he wonders if now that some time has passed, there's a chance Loki wants to come back and work through it with him and their parents. When he says "we were raised together, we played together, we fought together," he's not just trying to convince Loki that he's loved, he's trying to remind Loki of his own love.

Again, during the Battle of New York itself, Thor makes a similar plea. He offers that he and Loki stop the fight together, and his eyes are so incredibly soft when he says it, you know he believes it can still work. That belief comes from knowing there's something in Loki that wants to say yes, something that loves Thor enough to give up his dream of kingdom and stop the invasion. His use of together is interesting not just because he's offering Loki a way out, putting it on the table that Loki can exercise his heart and choose a better path, but also because he's finally putting Loki on the same level he is. We can do this, we can return home, you just have to find some part of you that loves me enough to choose equality with me in this fight over equality with me in having thrones. He also holds back when he's dueling Loki, which is a horrible idea if you actually believe a person has the capacity to kill you, but if you don't believe that, it's an ultimate show of trust. Thor kind of puts his life in Loki's hands by not using his full strength, and only after Loki rejects his offer and stabs him does he finally use more brute force, although it's still not enough to kill Loki or even knock him out. Thor really believes, not just wants to believe, that Loki will not kill him given the chance, that there is something in him that wants to go home, and it's all because Thor, after all his shattered illusions, still believes there is love for him in Loki's heart, even if it has been touched and twisted by anger and pain.

In Dark World, Thor is much more pessimistic when he breaks Loki out of jail. He basically says that his brother is no longer in there, that he won't hesitate to kill Loki if he steps out of line. I think this is important to note because Thor isn't saying I don't believe you love me anymore, he's saying the person who loved me is dead and this shell is all that remains. Thor says he no longer has hope, but he's still clinging to that belief that Loki did love him, in his own way, and he would rather view Loki as dead than let go of it.

But beyond that, there's the fact that he not only lets Loki out of the handcuffs, he gives Loki a knife. Once again, you don't give a weapon to someone you wouldn't trust not to kill you, and you don't trust someone you've had so much tension with not to kill you unless you believe they love you. Loki says "trust my rage" re: Frigga being killed, but I would argue that actually wouldn't go in his favor. Thor has seen what Loki resorts to when he's not processing his emotions in any way other than rage: he attacks Thor, he falls into perfidy, he just lashes out at the closest target. And even despite that, despite having fought Loki in Thor and in Avengers, having witnessed firsthand what destruction Loki was willing to either cause or help facilitate, Thor still gives him a weapon and trusts that Loki isn't going to kill him. There is clearly still a part of Thor that is saying he loves me, he's not going to kill me.

Of course, by the end of that movie, Thor is rewarded in his faith. Loki stabs Kurse to save Thor, and it appears to cost him his life, and as he's dying, what does Thor say? Stay with me. In essence, loving me so much you'll die for me isn't enough, love me so much you'll stay alive for me. It's not a rational thing to say to someone who appears to be bleeding out; a person can't generally stave off death on willpower alone when they've been stabbed in the gut. Thor always ends up speaking to Loki's heart, because he knows that heart is bitter and full of rage and grief but also love, even though Loki is absolutely horrible at expressing it most of the time. I want to talk about why Loki might've faked his death and taken Odin's place at the end of that movie in another post, but part of me really thinks he chose that specific way to fake his death because he wanted Thor to see that Loki did love him, and that was the only way he could think of to reach out without actually having to confront his own pain and the enormity of the breach between them. Now, the "I didn't do it for him" could be taken one of two ways: it was actually for Frigga, or it was actually for Thor. I'm very much inclined to believe the latter, as Thor is the one present in the scene. Also, the expression on Thor's face when Loki says that is so frozen, like yes, I wanted more than anything to be told that you still care, but not like this. And it feels like Loki is doing his best to communicate that he does love Thor, but his communication skills, especially with Thor, are severely distorted, partially by that unhealthy relationship they had early on where he most likely never felt entirely welcome to speak his true feelings, and partially by the chasm that opened between them when Loki went into his downward spiral of destruction, both of himself and of others. I genuinely think Loki doesn't know how to just say it. To quote myself from an earlier post I made about Loki, he feels like "there’s no way he can possibly repair the relationships he’s broken," so he doesn't try to apologize and make up for it. Like someone else (I forget who) has already said, sacrifice is the way Loki makes up for things. So he gives Thor this image of a sacrifice, the ultimate expression of love and devotion, because he doesn't know how else to say it.

What's the point of all this? Thor knew Loki loved him. That's the whole point of their story. Their love for each other is the cornerstone on which that immense cosmic narrative is built. Even with doubt, anger, bitterness, frustration, grief, pain all complicating their relationship and getting in the way of actually expressing love to each other, the fundamental truth of Thor and Loki is love. Is faith. Is hope. Is saying maybe you don't know how to say it, maybe you're trying to shut it down, but I know there is something in you that loves me and that's the part I choose to believe in.

Thor knew Loki loved him.

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delicatedragonpartysalad · 9 months

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A rant about Loki - Where Mischief Lies

Loki - Where Mischief Lies is probably one of my favorite Loki contents, the book portrays this young Loki and a bit of his life in Odin’s court, it dives deep in his magic and how he feels growing up as a sorcerer in a warrior’s society, it also shows his relationship with Amora, who in the story is Karnilla’s apprentice and heir to the throne of Nornheim, Karnilla is the Norn Queen and Odin’s royal sorceress.

I think I love the book so much because Mackenzie Lee (the author) is not afraid to explain to the readers what’s going on inside Loki’s head. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading some meta analysis of the character (and I mean that as a compliment!), she really understands Loki, what his motivations are and portrays him as this charming young boy who’s so insecure about who he is but is so eager to please his father, to prove himself worthy of the title of prince of Asgard, to impress Amora, to be a good sorcerer, to be a good soldier, a good son, he is just desperate for someone to see his value, even though he doesn’t see any value in himself.

The book is supposed to show us who Loki was before he became the villain of the Avengers, before he embraced his role as a antagonist and in my opinion it does a really good job on that, we see how reluctant he is to accept that in the beginning of the story, but by the end he is sadly ready to take the mantle of The Villain and to become the awful man everyone around him assumes him to be.

Right at the beginning of the story we see a boy who lives under the pressure of being a son of Odin and a prince of Asgard, Loki says at some point:

“He wished he could afford not to care, not to feel like everything he did right or wrong was ticked off in a corresponding column and kept on file for the day Odin would name either him or Thor as the heir to the Asgardian crown.”.

Now, that is a lot of pressure for someone to grow up under, and this bit is specially heartbreaking to me because we as an audience know that Odin has no intents to put Loki in the throne of Asgard, but the boy feels like he has the responsibility to prove himself worthy of the throne, he feels like he is failing his father and his people and he is also so immensely alone, he has no friends in court until Amora arrives and no one in Asgard has a good opinion on her. Loki is very clearly in love with her, I find so sweet the way he describes how he feels when around her, he’s like this teen awkwardly in love for the first time, he sees her as a model of perfection, he wants to be like her, she is everything he ever dreamed to be: confident, skilled with magic, strong, witty and funny.

There's a few moments where he talks about himself and we can see that the self loathing is strong, he despises all the things that make him him and would gladly throw it all away if it meant he could become Asgard’s “ideal prince”, wich by the way is Thor, that’s it, in Loki’s opinion (and apparently in Asgard’s opinion) Thor is the perfect prince, he is blonde, muscular, strong, and an excellent warrior, Loki even says:

“The gods could not have handcrafted a more obvious model of kingship than Thor”.

Loki praises him (not out loud of course) for his appearance and describes himself as

“the scraps of (Thor’s) silhouette, the part that was discarded on the workshop floor to be swept up and tossed into the fire—thin and pale, with a hooked nose and black hair that hung flat to the nape of his neck, where it flipped into an unflattering curl. While Thor’s skin bronzed in the sun so that he seemed made of armor, Loki was pale as milk, and soured just as easily.”

It’s very clear Loki does not think much of himself, he hates pretty much everything that makes him unique and is very sad to see how desperate he is to fit in, to belong. We see his desperation when he talks about Amora arriving at court, he says he had never interacted with another sorcerer besides his mother and states that he thought of Amora as an equal, someone just like him. In his first conversation with her we can see clearly how unsure of himself he is, he wants to be more confident and open but fears she’ll not find him interesting enough to talk to him:

“He wanted to sit beside her, but somehow that felt too presumptuous, a bold assumption that he was interesting enough for her to want around.”

That almost seems like another character entirely, right? Imagine Loki from the MCU, that arrogant man who treated everyone else as being beneath him as a shy, insecure teenager who was scared the girl he had a crush on would not want to talk to him. That’s why I love that book so much, it shows who Loki really was before adopting the persona of the God of Mischief. The way he describes some of their interactions is literally so sweet and relatable, he really was just a boy in love with the new girl in town, there’s a bit where they’re in the gardens and this happens:

“Loki sank down beside her, close enough that their knees pressed together. Even through the hazy gloom lingering from his conversation with Thor, an electric shiver went through him when she didn’t pull away from his touch. No matter how small that touch was.”

This is so sweet, he is so in love with her, is so shy and insecure, he is always nervous when around her, always trying to hide things she would consider weaknesses, it’s clear he considers himself to be weak, as i said before he despises himself and all of his particularities.

He is also always seeing other people as being superior to him, is always looking down on himself and trying to be someone else, someone he thinks is who he should be. He wants to be accepted so bad, he wants to be loved, wants to know that he belongs in his family, wants to be just a good prince as Thor is, wants to feel seen by his father, this may sound silly but he just wants attention, he is tired of feeling inadequate, he is desperate for Odin to acknowledge his value and to consider him worthy of his attention.

Loki is almost obsessed with his father, everything he does he does to impress him, sadly he never succeeds, each time he creates a scheme to praise Odin he fails and his opinion on Loki only gets worse, Odin starts to see Loki as this corrupted man with darkness in his soul, with an evil and calculating nature and a danger to Asgard.

What he fails to realize is that Loki at his core is just (as Mobius himself put in the series) a scared little boy, he needs guidance and validation from the person he considers the most, he depends so much on Odin’s opinion of him, he lets it define who he is, he is not strong enough to stand up against this perception of himself, probably because he hasn’t got a single friend, no one he can be vulnerable with without fear of judgment, he bears his burden alone and is nearly falling apart under the weight of everything he has on his shoulders, he really needs someone he can be real with, but he probably will never feel comfortable enough with anyone to let his guard down.

He doesn’t even allow himself to be in love, when he realizes he’s starting to become too fond with people he immediately pushes them back, he puts on the act of the cold, bad guy, but at the same time he is desperate for connection, contradictory fellow innit?

Loki struggles with his need for love and acceptance and the fear of showing his true colors to people around him, he views himself as weak and he’s not willing to show weakness to anyone, he needs a friend he can be real with (and I feel the Loki series has hit the nail in the head with Mobius, he is exactly the kind of friend Loki needs), a friend who sees the man behind the mask of villainy and is willing to accept Loki for who he is.

I couldn’t help but feel impotent reading the book because at some parts you really wants to jump on the pages and hold him close to you, whilst telling him everything will be okay and that he is enough, that his worth is not tied to Odin perspective of him and that he is capable of doing everything he ever dreamed and more.

Well, that was quite a long post, sorry if I talked too much, this book is so important to me as a Loki fan, I could rant about it for hours!

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tyrannuspitch · 7 months

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in order of least to most galaxy brain:

loki has npd because he's evil

loki does NOT have npd because he's NOT evil!!! he's just traumatised and compensating for his self-loathing. thor is evil, he can have the npd

loki has npd because npd IS a trauma disorder which compensates for self-loathing

loki doesn't have npd because his npd traits are too superficial and unstable, but he has bpd with narcissistic traits

loki does have npd (and bpd) because the diagnostic criteria for npd are unreliable on account of their bias against the patient; if you read first-hand accounts you find a much more nuanced picture of the illness

thor is not evil. and he has bpd with narcissistic traits

#space viking tag #yeah still thinking about this #i'm not like HUGE on diagnosing characters (and i reserve my right to change my mind again)#but i do find specific diagnoses to be an interesting lens for character analysis #and also interesting as just. a phenomenon. human emotions #hmm #meta #lens: modern psychiatry #ch: loki #ch: thor

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odin-suggestion · 5 months

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I still think about that moment in the comics where Odin hired Black Panther to kill Loki. But then how Odin gets very upset if anything happens to Loki. If BP had done it, what do you think Odin would have done?

I think about this so much.

Like, here's the context: The War of the Realms is imminent and Odin is finally realizing that he picked the wrongest possible way to deal with it. Freyja called it, and Loki sided with her when she rebelled against Odin over it, and then he (apparently) defected to the enemy, then he (apparently) tried to kill Freyja and nearly succeeded. Odin is going through some shit and once again, much of it is Loki's fault. So it's not that shocking that he'd want something done about Loki, and let's be real: for Asgardians, killing them is just making them go somewhere. To a god, death is a prison sentence, and Loki is the gods' best escape artist.

And while Odin absolutely (even by his own admission), has his moments... he's not stupid.

In that comic, Odin goes to Black Panther and starts off by saying, "Let me tell you a story."

In this story, Odin says, "A long time ago, I, a young god, and your ancestor, the first Black Panther, fought a terrible creature together with some other heroes. When we had defeated it, the Black Panther called for mercy -- something was clearly wrong with this creature, and he wanted to help it. I disagreed: I thought we should kill it and nail its corpse to the moon as a warning to the rest of its kind."

And then Odin says, "I was wrong. The Black Panther was wiser than I was."

He uses this story to illustrate why he respects the Black Panther -- a fellow king, a powerful warrior, and a man of great wisdom. And then Odin says, "That creature we fought: its friends are coming to Earth to get revenge for what we did, and Loki is helping them.* I want you to kill him for the greater good."

*(Loki, for his part, is doing all of this because Malekith intends to use Earth as the battleground for the War of the Realms and the Avengers aren't Avengering hard enough. They need a bad guy to fight so they'll have an excuse to get the band back together.)

Odin says he can't do it because he's weak, he loves his son too much to kill him himself, even knowing the destruction he's about to cause. And it seems like it doesn't quite fit together, does it? Odin didn't go to one of the other heroes he fought alongside in that fight. He didn't ask the Ghost Rider, arbiter of cosmic justice. He didn't ask Earth's Sorcerer Supreme, who's recently had to deal with Loki's bullshit and is eager to kick his ass. He didn't ask the Phoenix, favorite of his old companions. He asked the Black Panther -- the only one to disagree with him. The one who wisely called for mercy and understanding.

And then I remember Young Avengers.

And I remember when the whole thing first starts, and Billy's in trouble and America swoops in to rescue him -- not from the terrible mage-eating monster he's just accidentally summoned, but from Loki. And when they finally get a moment to sit down to talk about it, she tells Billy:

"Don't trust Loki. He knew something was going to happen and he told me that to prevent it, I should kill you."

And Loki says, "Sometimes the only way to be the good guy is to play the bad guy everyone expects you to be. What would you have done if I'd told you Billy was in trouble?"

"Nothing," she admits.

A year after this conversation with Odin, T'Challa walks into Avengers tower with a file on everything Loki's been up to recently and says to the Avengers, "What have all of you heard about the War of the Realms?"

#ooc obvs #character analysis #listen they are both bastards and they are so so alike #both of them are just over here playing 5d chess with the realms as their game board #odin does definitely get some bad writing and he's often the obligatory bad parent for thor and loki childhood angst plotlines #which is fine!!! he's a narrative tool!!! they're stories!!!#but he's a way more complex and interesting character than he gets credit for in fandom i think

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1neverendingstories1 · 2 years

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Doctor Strange 2 Spoilers

Can I just say how much I love the frustratingly static humanity of Stephen Strange and the sheer relatability of his films?

Yeah I know I know they’re actually very complicated films packed with totally new concepts and artistry and reality. But Stephen is so human. He is an arrogant man, built upon a throne of validation and sorrow that he refuses to yield. He’s brilliant, he’s lonely, he’s stubborn, he doesn’t actually change. I haven’t seen him change. “Oh but ‘Stories he abandons the path to healing his hands and becoming a surgeon again! He sacrifices (what’s speculated to be) years of his life dying at the repetitive hands of Dormammu!” Yes that most certainly is a change in lanes but he’s still in the same car; the world around him changed but he didn’t. He’s still arrogant, and stubborn, and lonely, and gentle. He’s shockingly gentle.

I have heard a lot of people use this as a criticism on Stephen’s development. To be fair of course, he is in a superhero movie he should change mid movie into a man people could look up to in order to be rightfully seen as a hero, right? I don’t know. I find his lack of “practical” betterment as it should be. Doctor Strange 1, in my opinion as someone who has no life experience that can be likened to Stephen’s, wasn’t about Stephen becoming a hero, it was about a person letting the escutcheon of vanity bleed and become vulnerable. Preferably for niceness in this case. Because Stephen was already kind, he didn’t need to learn that. He was a surgeon who held peoples lives on the line and refused—refused—to be the one responsible for their detriment. “You want me to screw up my perfect record?” “When I became a doctor, I swore an oath to do no harm. And I have just killed a man! I am not doing that again.”

And after seeing MOM, this really drives the point that he has always shielded people from truly “seeing through him” as The Ancient One would say, and therefore hasn’t actually changed just that much further. He let himself be consumed with the god complex of a rich-successful-surgeon because if he was a god then he wouldn’t fail to save anyone, no one including himself could be unlucky. Like his sister, his sister who died when they were just kids playing on a lake. Who he doesn’t talk about. Who he “failed to save.” “You want to go back to the delusion that you can control anything. Even death.”

At the end of the film, he doesn’t go back. Obviously, it’s a first installment of the new marvel hero franchise. But then we see him in Ragnorkak, and could have, let’s face it, easily “killed” Loki by making him fall into giant monster’s stomach, but instead he talks it out with Thor and helps them find Odin and leaves them be. He only wanted to make sure there wasn’t a threat. Such a simple goal, find the threat (Loki, Thanos, a bullet in a man’s brain) and eliminate it (help Thor and Loki, give up the time stone and die again, rush into emergency surgery). And I don’t have the time to get into him in IW and Endgame, and the affects on his sense of authority and ego shown in the chapel in MOM, and quite frankly I don’t think I’d do it any justice. He held the fate of half the universe with his shaking hands and with the questions of “what if I just looked at one more reality, one more outcome, what would I have found? What if it didn’t have to be that way and I stopped too soon? I caused so much suffering, I know it was worth the survival but should I be forgiven?” I’m still trying to figure out how that would be for him.

Though, maybe it’s comparable to how he was before. Questions he might’ve had before we met him. “If I had just said no to the lake would Donna be alive? Should I be forgiven for failing to save her? If I save other’s lives, would I still have to feel guilty? Would I feel better? Would they be better if I helped?”

And then we see him in NWH. He sees Peter hurting, in need of help, this kid has his future threatened and needs it fixed, and there’s no one else to do that than Stephen. His goal was so simple. Help Peter. Fix it, for the kid, because he’s good and he deserves it. Stephen was prepared to forget Peter, that means Stephen wouldn’t get praise or gratitude he could appreciate from Peter. He was trying to be kind, and he was gentle. But then the spell messes up, and he’s stern and stubborn, and acting all knowing like a god scoffing at a mortals pleadings for a different judgement. And then Stephen has to help Peter, the only way he knows how, destruction. He’s the same as he’s always been.

And now MOM, where his only goal, the entire movie, was to help America Chavez. To protect this kid, not to fail her when she needed help, when she had no other options than to ask him. “Well I could help but so could 50 other people.” “Come on Wong. Hasn’t he been through enough?” Stephen did everything he could think of to protect her, even messing with pizza poppa because he harassed her about the food. He was increasingly gentle with her. She was scared, Stephen could definitely understand the feeling and Wong telling Stephen that America reminds him of a younger Stephen, kind of makes her feel like family. Something Stephen has been afraid of from the beginning with Christine, and after his sister, being vulnerable, taking care and being taken care of. The most dangerous thing Stephen can imagine; happiness.

Stephen doesn’t really change all that much to me. To me he’s the same man from the moment we met him, until perhaps when he fixes his watch with his hands. Not his magic tying a tie for a wedding that is self induced torture because he failed to be the man Christine needed. His hands, his scarred, still shaking hands, fixing a watch he chose to keep broken so he never forgot his shortcomings. Put it in a box: the threat of tempting what ifs. “What if I had opened up more? What if I had really went back to my old life? What if I missed the reality where I didn’t have to leave for five years and could’ve been with Christine?”

I love Stephen, he’s so human that he’s annoying. I am aware he has many faults, and I’m not saying anyone has to like him or agree with me. I just happen to think he’s neat. Or maybe I’m just a marvel narcissist apologist.

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unityrain24 · 1 year

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Concerning Frigga

I've seen a few posts & fics comparing Frigga to Odin and saying she too was an awful parent with awful intentions. But I really don't think this was the case? I mean, obviously she did some wrong things that fucked Loki up, but I don't think they are all entirely her fault. It is my belief that she was being emotionally abused/manipulated by Odin.

I think the biggest and most obvious example of this is from a deleted scene from the first Thor film (2011) [and before you call it invalid because it was deleted, they deleted a lot of scenes showing both Frigga's and Loki's characterization to make it more about Thor. There was nothing in the scene that was contradictory to the film, nor was it to far-fetched to have a good reason to be scrapped. Therefor, i view it as canon]. But anyways, within the scene, Frigga confronts Odin on Thor's banishment. She is very obviously distraught at the loss of her son, and angry at Odin's choice (obviously)(also, i mean, she wasn't even there for it). However, Odin just dismisses her for her emotions, says that his lack of emotion made him superior in the situation, and that he has his reasons for it and she is crazy for questioning him. Very obviously mental/emotional manipulation/abuse.

There are more subtle examples at other times, however.

In Thor: The Dark World (2013), there is a scene in which Frigga mentions that Odin "Never was a good liar" [I couldn't find a clip of the scene that included it, as it was sort of a transition, but the segment starts at 40:46 in the movie, and she says it at 41:09]. She says this despite Odin lying about Hela's existence to like, everyone ever (and was pretty successful at his cover-up), and also lying to Loki about his true heritage (and that cover-up was pretty successful for several centuries). Odin seems to be pretty good at lying. By Odin letting Frigga believe he is a bad liar (at least at smaller things), it lets him have her twisted around his fingers even more.

In addition, Frigga defends Odin's awful actions, notable in the first Thor film, in a scene where Frigga and Loki are conversing while Odin is in the Odinsleep. Frigga admits to wanting to have told Loki of his Jotünn heritage from the beginning, but Odin forbade it. When Loki asks for more information, Frigga says it's because Odin loved him and didn't want him to feel different. Pretty bullshit reasoning, but it looks like Frigga legitimately, honestly believes the words (words that were most likely told to her by Odin, probably in 'conversation' much like in the deleted scene previously mentioned). In this scene, she also defends Odin's decision to banish Thor, saying Odin always has a reason for everything (much like what Odin had yelled at her about in his chastisement in the same previous deleted scene).

While some may attribute this to her honestly agreeing with Odin and being a reflection on her beliefs & morals (and therefore being a horrible person as well), this probably isn't the case given what we have seen of her. It is actually quite common for victims to defend their abuser's actions. In this article by Dr. Sirota (a psychiatrist with over 25 years of mental health experience), she explains many, many reasons as to why this is (including the "crazy-making" tactic Odin was showed utilizing in that first scene mentioned).

Not to mention, in actual norse mythology/Asatro, Frigga (actually called Frigg) is deemed the goddess of marriage, amongst other things. If this aspect of her carries over into her MCU version, she may even feel pressured to stay with Odin- after all, what is the goddess of marriage with a failing marriage? So she either doesn't/can't recognize Odin's flaws and corruption, or is in denial about them due to this.

I really don't think Frigga was truly a bad parent (in the sense that she didnt care/didnt try), nor a bad person at heart. It is made very apparent on multiple occasions that Frigga truly loves Loki. While it is mainly shown in scenes in which she is directly talking to Loki, it is also shown even when Loki is not present, confirming that it is not a ruse. She even went out of her way and defied Odin's wishes to visit him (which is a big testament to her love for Loki, considering how much she falls in line with Odin the rest of the time). While she definitely has her flaws (there are hints to racism/excusing racism, as that is pretty normal in Asgard, apparently), I cannot help but wonder how much of that is also Odin's fault?(actually likely just the. culture of asgard's fualt) (btw not trying to excuse racism, racism is very obviously bad)

But anyways in the end, I think Frigga was a good parent to the best of her abilities given her situation and own problems, and it sort of makes me sad to see people talking about how awful she was :( Let's just shit on Odin

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guideaus · 2 months

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s1 of vinland saga is where thorfinn is obsessed with revenge, but its so the askeladd show

#personal #i hate that hes not unlikable but i need an analysis of him as a character stat #thorfinn existing near him after he's killed his father. he is a viking leader and says he hates vikings. he's trained them all up and lets #them die. he talks abt the world ending and continuing greater violence. he killed his viking father and said thors was nothing #special. his last words to thorfinn was telling him to be greater and do something with his life. dies propping up a king to enact peace #while all he's done his life is steal rape and murder #what happened in this man's head during the convo w the scout for him to suddenly devote the rest of his life to this cause #and he's so self hating. i feel thorfinn living and changing is a good comparison to him. askeladd says its too late for him and doesnt #change but props thorfinn and canute up in the end. so much of s1 feels like its just dedicated to his sudden goal #thorfinn is there. askeladd's like goddamnit do something else #he sure is a character...

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charalysis · 1 year

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Thor

SPOILERS FOR GOD OF WAR RAGNAROK AHEAD

In God of War, Thor is less of a consistent threat, and more of a minor antagonist. He's huge in stature, imposing and comes off cold. He's got the power to back up his appearance too. But throughout the story, Thor is shown to be depressed, reserved, and honestly broken.

Where, though, does this brokenness originate? The obvious answer is Odin, his father, but let's delve into the how, why, and theories I have on the why.

Thor was born to Odin and his Jotnar mother, Fjörgyn. Odin, despite his hatred of the Jotnar, adored Fjörgyn, marrying her. His love was so great that, according to Mimir, he was not the same after her death. It is implied by a lore marker that their own son was somehow responsible for Fjörgyn's unspecified demise.

It mentions that her body shall be borne to "where nevermore the Thunder may find her". In addition, the same Marker says that "for her gift of life, her life was claimed", further supporting this suggestion.

Its not clear when she died in Thor's life, but I have two ideas. One, Thor had a temper since childhood and in a fit, killed Fjörgyn. Two, Fjörgyn passed away giving birth to Thor and Odin, in his grief, blamed the newborn Thor. Either way, this sets the stage for the dynamic between father and son.

In game, we routinely see Odin insulting Thor, belittling him, and generally emotionally abusing him. Based on how used to it Thor seems, it's likely Odin has done that since he was a child. Odin claims Thor can't be gotten along with because he won't accept kindness, and has always been rude. Odin fails to acknowledge that's he is responsible for Thor's lack of empathy and inability to accept love.

Thor was raised as a tool, not a son. Thor's humanity isn't recognized by the person who was meant to love him. Instead, that person was the first to hurt him deeply.

Thor also references the idea of not thinking, saying Atreus's thinks too much, and saying "no thinking" often. This ties into Odin's abuse of Thor. Thor can't question him if he can't have an individual thought, thus Thor was taught to never think for himself.

This is why Sif is so important in his life.

Sif brings him back a bit, helps him remember he is actually allowed independent thought. He's allowed to make choices for himself and his family without Odin butting in. Unfortunately, there's little she, or their daughter, can do. Thrúd is convinced Odin isn't a monster so she doesn't stand up to him. Even when Sif reaches Thor, he struggles to act on her words and suggestions because Odin has the power, and mindset, to kill him if he stood being Odin's pawn. Which, he inevitably does.

Odin kills Thor at the end game of Ragnarok. Kratos finally reaches Thor, convinces him change is possible and in reach. Thor tells Odin no.

Odin runs in through in anger.

This all isn't to say Thor was a pure victim in life, absolutely not. He murdered hundreds of giants, abused his sons, and was generally regarded poorly by all. However, these actions were initially planted into him by Odin. Thor is an example of an abuse victim growing to perpetuate the cycle unfortunately.

With his sons, particularly Modi I think, Thor beat discipline into them from what Mimir had said. Something that Odin allegedly had done to him. Hence why when Modi returned home without Magni and the mission overall failed, he beat Modi near to death.

Thor is so convinced he's a destroyer, a problem, that he continues to perpetuate abuse until his sons are gone. Then he turns further into self hatred and self harm with his alcoholism, which, once more, only serves to further cause his family harm.

Tl;Dr: Thor is a deeply broken man who suffered abuse from very early in life at the hands of his father. He continues the cycle for many years, and when he finally tries to break it, it costs him his life.

#character analysis #gow ragnarok #gow ragnarök spoilers #thor #thor god of war #thor gow #thor odinson #odin god of war #odin gow #thor critical

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