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#Very loose interpretation of greek myths
carebooks · 2 months
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to those who feel like Hades should’ve been more ‘godlike’ to put it in book!Percy’s words, i understand where you’re coming from.
however, in this case i would like to remind you the book is almost two decades old and Rick has grown as a writer and an interpreter of mythology.
when re-reading TLT there are a lot of… i wouldn’t say ‘old fashioned’ maybe contrived? or just a very specific way certain gods or monsters are shown. for ex: when talking about hephaestus, the book says zeus threw him off olympus as a baby when it’s well known it was hera. (granted future books do fix this error) medusa is all about revenge, hades is scary and big and imposing, he’s talked about being ruthless and punishing.
when it comes to the stories, it was hera that kicked her baby off a mountain. medusa doesn’t do anything, it’s other people coming over and bothering her and getting turned to stone until someone cuts her head off. it’s persephone that was known to deliver the cruel punishments than her husband.
how many times has hades been shown as the villain in every loose adaptation of whatever greek myth someone does? where he’s shown as jealous and bitter? even the book and show make an attempt at it but they know better, it’s a great misdirect because the audience would expect hades to be the bad guy right? when actually, it’s mentioned that hades was fine with his kingdom. he’s got his job, he’s got his dog, he’s got his girl (for 1/3 of each year) so yeah i liked this version better than the books.
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alpaca-clouds · 7 months
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Orpheus and the Katabasis
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Another topic for mythologic geekery. Let me today talk about a topic that folks within comparative mythology actually do not really quite agree on. Orpheus and the Katabasis.
As you may know: Orpheus is not a god. He is a dude. At times a half-god, to be fair (though speaking from the perspective of Greek mythology: Who isn't really?) Actually, to be very exact for the Stray Gods fans: In some versions of the mythology he is in fact the son of Calliope and a mortal man. But given that he was actually no god and thus not venerated the basis for the story of Orpheus and Eurydice did not change that much. Within the versions we have records of the basic outline of the story shifts. Again, in some Orpheus is a half-god. In some the nature of Eurydice shifts, too. But it always is: "Orpheus is a musician who finds his muse in Eurydice. Eurydice dies. Orpheus goes to the underworld to reclaim her. He does some music. Hades likes it and lets her go. But Orpheus cannot turn around. He does. Eurydice gone. Orpheus sad." Often the myth even ends there, never explaining what becomes of Orpheus after failing.
Something that makes this myth so fascinating to me is the discussion of it was part of the Katabasis. A "trope" shall we say within comparative mythology.
I think, in fact, that this was one of the first myths where I as a kid had the "Oh, this is actually like very similar" moment. Because I read another myth and was like: "Hey, that is like with the Greek singer dude! But how can that be? They are so far apart?!"
And the myth in question is Izanagi and Izanami in the Japanese mythology. A myth that involves many of the same tropes we know from both Hades and Persephone and Orpheus and Eurydice. Woman dies. Man goes down. She cannot return to the living. Either because she has consumed part of the underworld. Or because he turns around.
And when I first read that myth with like 12 years I was like: "Huh?!"
Here is the thing why this is a topic that folks will argue about a lot in Comparative Mythology. There is the idea of the Katabasis. Aka, that one of those myths - some go even as far as speculating whether it is like even pre-proto-indo-european - that shows up again and again. Not quite as similar as it is when we compare Izanagi and Orpheus, but still the same idea.
The idea being that: Someone goes to hell/the underworld for a quest. This quest usually involves either rescuing a loved one (though this does not need to be romantic, it might also involve family members or dear friends) or obtaining knowledge of some sort (like the knowledge how to make fire). Some tropes show up again and again within that. Like loosing the ability of returning due to consuming something. Or the god/ruler of the underworld testing the respective hero, often resulting on the short term or long term death of said hero.
Now, would it show up only in myths of the Indu-European family and in a lot of them, this would not get argued about. But it doesn't. It also shows up in Pacifica mythology, in South American mytholgy and Eastern African mythology. Meanwhile it does not show up in all the myths or in some is argued whether this really is comparative (like Ra's journey through the underworld or the liberation of Ushas).
Which basically leads to two different interpretations:
This is a concept that has been around since the days of very early humans, leading the myth to be kinda passed along and adapted throughout the world.
Most humans do in fact burry their dead, making the idea of an underworld as a world of the dead very logical - and it is just a human need and want to either get a loved one back or optain knowledge. For the later it could be argued that the believe of someone who died and came back having mythic knowledge being kinda logical, given that death is the one thing we still know surprisingly little about.
Obviously I do not know the answer to which of those things is the real answer.
But I find it endlessly fascinating.
Also... just the amount of adaptions of Orpheus specifically is super interesting as well. xD
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littlesparklight · 13 days
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just to balance out the previous ask- what are you top ten /least/ favorite figures from greek myth? (and as a little bonus: what eternal curse would you place on them?)
Oh anon... 🔥 Well!
Achilles Klytaimnestra (mostly for fandom ~Klytaimnestra did nothing wrong~ reasons. I guess Kassandra is just chopped liver, then. But the snippets I've seen from the plays of how she treats her other, very much alive, children doesn't endear me either.) With a sort of abstract look at "figure" and very much situational, but: literally all the Achaeans as soon as the horse enters Troy. Fuck every single one of them at that point forwards. Diomedes Deiphobos Again, for a given definition of "figure", but: the modern, ~misogynist and abusive villain~ version of Perseus. Hate that he exists like that. Modern woobie!Hades, who has been tricked/imprisoned in the Underworld by Zeus etc and/or apparently has been forced, FORCED I tell you, to kidnap his future wife by Zeus. so sad. The particular instances we see in the Iliad of Zeus when he threatens physical/domestic violence. Sure, it's not just Hera he threatens, and we don't exactly have representation of any direct violence happening to anyone (aside from Hephaistos being tossed from Olympos and depending on how you interpret wtf is going on with the "hung from the sky" punishment Hera is given), but - still. It's deeply unpleasant. The traitorous Aeneas found in Dictys and Dares. Especially as he's presented as correct in his actions. Fuck traitors sorry not sorry, and fuck this Aeneas.
... ok that's the best I can do, and hey we got up to nine! Even if this is a pretty loose interpretation of your ask in terms of "figures" lol I could have made a straighter one by just listing a lot of mortals (... and it'd generally be Achaean commanders), but I wanted to vary it a little. There are basically no gods on that list because I do, frankly, take a somewhat different tack in how I deal with/look at them compared with the mortal characters.
As for the curse... there's only one of them I'd curse, and it'd be Achilles, who should get separated from Patroklos forever AND be banished from fandom because I am TIRED ok.
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plovton · 2 months
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𝐄𝐱𝐩𝐥𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠   𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐞𝐬   𝐨𝐟   ┊  𝑇ℎ𝑒  𝑤𝑒𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡  𝑜𝑓  𝑙𝑜𝑛𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑒𝑠𝑠,  𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑡ℎ  𝑎𝑛𝑑  𝑟𝑒𝑏𝑖𝑟𝑡ℎ,  𝑑𝑖𝑚𝑙𝑦  𝑙𝑖𝑡  𝑟𝑜𝑜𝑚𝑠,  ℎ𝑜𝑛𝑒𝑦  𝑐𝑜𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑑  𝑤𝑜𝑟𝑑𝑠,  𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑠  𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡  𝑔𝑜  𝑏𝑢𝑚𝑝  𝑖𝑛  𝑡ℎ𝑒  𝑛𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡,  𝑡ℎ𝑒  𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑢𝑟𝑒  𝑜𝑓  𝑑𝑎𝑟𝑘𝑛𝑒𝑠𝑠,  𝑎  𝑚𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟  𝑤𝑎𝑙𝑘𝑖𝑛𝑔  𝑎𝑚𝑜𝑛𝑔 𝑙𝑖𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑔, 𝑠ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑝  𝑡𝑒𝑒𝑡ℎ  𝑠ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑝𝑒𝑟  𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑠  &  𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑑𝑙𝑦  𝑘𝑒𝑝𝑡  𝑠𝑒𝑐𝑟𝑒𝑡𝑠.
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★ | #𝙋𝙇𝙊𝙑𝙏𝙊𝙉  | selective      &      mutually      exclusive      HADES      from      GREEK      MYTH      inspired      by      various      media      and      literature      interpretations      which      are      reimagined      to      fit      into      a      more      modern      world.  This      blog      is      loosely      inspired      by      dark      fantasy,  gothic      horror,    retellings of   mythology      &     folklores.
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olympianbutch · 2 years
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Heyo, just popping in out of curiosity!
I've perused a bit of your blog and would love to hear more about your approach to myth. Do you take mythos literally, metaphorically, or somewhat in between? What historical factors do you consider in your interpretations? How does your understanding of the myths affect your relationships with the gods?
I haven't seen your approach widely expressed before, so I thought I'd ask!
I won’t lie, anon, I’ve been eagerly anticipating an ask like this! :) For the sake of time, though, I’m going to be limiting this post a great deal by discussing my approach to Greek mythology specifically as it’s seen via the medium of literature. The reason being that the visual arts and epigraphic record are beasts in their own right.
When I’m working through Greek mythological texts, I always begin by separating ancient material from modern retellings. Most Greek mythology books I’ve encountered are a mishmash of unsourced Greek and Roman works, which is doubly frustrating when the authors don’t distinguish between periods, regions, or genres.
I then begin sorting out all the primary sources I’ve collected. Not every antiquitous source is created equal. For instance, a writer from the Hellenistic or Roman Imperial period isn’t going to know nearly as much as Homer or Hesiod when it comes to Archaic Greek religion. After sorting the material by period and region, I break it down even further by establishing the genre. Mediums like comedy and tragedy have to be handled carefully since they satirize and exaggerate ancient Greek mythology.
That said, where does Greek mythology even come from? If you were to ask the ancient historian Herodotos, he would tell you that “I think that Homer and Hesiod were older than I by 400 years and no more, and they are the ones who created the divine genealogy for Greeks, gave epithets to the gods, distributed their offices and their crafts and marked outward appearances” (Histories). Quite a few modern scholars are loosely inclined to agree with him. Walter Burkert tells us how “the Library of Apollodoros to a large extent repeats the Hesiodic Catalogues” (Greek Religion, pg. 6) and that this clearly shows an impressive level of mythological continuity from the Archaic to Hellenistic period.
This, of course, is a very broad, generalized explanation for the origins of Greek mythology. Virtually all ancient Greek historians agree that the gods and their mythologies existed long before either Homer or Hesiod. If anything, Homer and Hesiod’s works are culminations of an oral and religious tradition that had been well-established long before their time. Like hundreds, if not thousands, of years before their time.
Unlike ancient theatrical takes on Greek mythology, the Archaic Epic Cycle and Hesiod’s Theogony are said to have been divinely inspired by their respective authors. I’ve already touched on divine inspiration as it’s seen in Homer, so let’s focus on Hesiod.
Hesiod tells us “Here are the words the daughters of aegis-bearing Zeus, / the Muses of Olympos, first spoke to me. / ‘Listen, you country bumpkins, you pot-bellied blockheads, / we know how to tell many lies that pass for truth, / and when we wish, we know to tell the truth itself.’ / So spoke Zeus’s daughters, masters of word-craft, / and from a laurel in full bloom they plucked a branch, / and gave it to me as a staff, and then breathed into me / divine song, that I might spread the fame of past and future, / and commanded me to hymn the race of the deathless gods, / but always begin and end my song with them” (Theogony, 24–34).
Hesiod goes out of his way to tell his listeners that the Muses—the goddesses of ultimate memory and divine inspiration—know how to tell many lies that pass for truth, as well as the truth itself. This line has been instrumental to me and my worship. I’ve always interpreted it as them saying that they don’t necessarily tell the ultimate truth, and instead tell us mortals what the gods want us to regard as true. This leaves room for free thought and regional mythological variations. These variations are sometimes regarded as contradictory, but “These kinds of discrepancies must be admitted and respected because polytheism, . . . has the potential to adapt the figures of its gods and to modify their representation according to the requirements of the specific context and using its own specific language” (The Hera of Zeus: Intimate Enemy, Ultimate Spouse, pg. 297).
I think that Panhellenic legends are especially unique in this regard because they suggest that, sometimes, the gods want us to know only one consistent truth. An example of this would be the abduction of Persephone by Haides. Regardless of what genre or medium you look to, there is not a single antiquitous source discussing the beginnings of their marriage that excludes her violent kidnapping.
Turning back around to me and my approach to Greek mythology, I don’t consider myself a literalist, nor am I exactly an allegorist. When it comes to mythological literalism, I don’t think it’s possible. Dogmatism is inherently incompatible with the open system that is polytheism, and we know too much about religious variety to be able to take such a strict approach. I’m not an allegorist either, because taking a metaphorical or archetypical approach is similarly limiting and doesn’t account for the Greek cosmologies or aetiological myths. Allegorism can also be used to explain away the gods by reducing them to simply being metaphors for phenomena in nature, which I don’t at all agree with.
I don’t use Greek mythology as a means of supplementing my understanding of recorded history or science. It’s hard to explain how exactly it plays into the many different aspects of my life and thought process, but that could be because my religion permeates all facets of my being. I can say with certainty, though, that mythology has informed my understanding of the divine genealogy of the gods, their epithets, offices, crafts, and outward appearances.
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neoptolemid · 2 years
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where did your love of neoptolemus come from please tell me all about your special boy
Of course of course, there aren't enough words.
I really came about getting into Neoptolemus from getting properly into Classics, part of having hyperfixiations/special interests is really learning everything you can on that subject. That was the case with Neoptolemus, I started learning more and more about Achilles and his deal and it led me to learn about him as well.
A lot the current 'fandom' of Greek mythology/classics comes from Madeline Miller so while trying to learn more and more about Neoptolemus and the other characters I saw the information presented by texts and then the way the fandom behaved. These conflicting sides of things only further got me into learning more, and it is where a lot of my love for Neo comes from. I found myself really taken by the characterization of Neo in works like 'Philoctetes' by Sophocles and 'Fall of Troy' by Quintus. I interpreted his character as far more sympathetic. I will not lie he does very terrible things, but so do all the Greeks and arguably Trojans as well. However he is a fictional character at the end of the day, and when judging him from the stance of his sources you need the context of when and who is writing it. For those antique texts it matters a lot if Romans or Greeks were the ones writing them.
None the less I really found myself drawn to him and his story, a lot of my own 'canon' is heavily changed/interpreted from the original but I will never lie and say that is it the correct, because it isn't. Most of the art I depict him in is my own canon and not correct, even some of my pieces of him are different canons. As I have gotten to know his character more and more I have changed the way I chose to write his story and the surrounding 'au's I have.
Now the timeline of the epic cycle isn't real lol
the epic cycle isn't meant to be read as super linear, none of the antique writers were counting out the years, they just called someone an 'old man' or 'young man' and called it a day (it is a bit more complex than that but this is a simplification) but when you think about that in versions of Achilles leaving the island of Skyros either Neo wasn't born yet or was still very small this means that by the time of the 10th year of the war Neo could very well be from 10-15, I generally put it at 13-ish.
He is a child soldier drafted into a war, and that aspect of his character and how that must shape a person is very interesting to me. Some childhood trauma I think is something a fair bit of us can relate to. I don't see him through the lenses of Madeline Miller or Virgil, I see him just as a traumatized kid reacting to the world around him in the best way he can. Trying to survive and being influenced by the many adults around him, the adults around him are the ones that have agenda and plans, the ones who more so care about fame and glory. He is a child responding to all that. He has only loose idea of those concepts. Furthermore Neo's story doesn't end in the abrupt way that Madeline Miller writes it in SoA.
There is a lot more going on and there are a fair amount of details that go on between the time that Neo leaves the shores of Troy and is buried in Delphi.
That is another thing that draws me to Neo but also to most everyone in the epic cycle. what you see with basic google searches and in many books surrounding these myths is only the most basic things, there are so many more myths and small details that you find out from sitting down and reading texts, combing through these stories and Neo was exactly the same. There are plenty of little details that he has that can influence the way you see him when you just look a bit deeper and for me those make all the difference. I think some of the beauty can be found in the drama, in the sadness of these characters. In the details and pieces that others will miss because they never looked deeper.
I could truly could just go on and on about my thoughts on Neo and what motivates me to love him.
In my mind it is a true shame that people will learn about Neoptolemus from Madeline Miller's, Song of Achilles and will never look deeper and just accept everything she says in her book.
She is straight wrong and in some cases the way she portrays things are harmful.
It pains me when I see people take her work for fact, it only pushes me to create to try and get people to see Neoptolemus for what I see, for all the possibilities I see in him. I create more and more for myself and for my friends who like my work and inspire me, but I also create in the hopes of getting others to see what I see.
To inspire them to look deeper into these amazing characters in the same way as I have been inspired.
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cipheramnesia · 2 years
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I'm just kidding about the clown card reading i realized it came across rude and pushy I was trying for funny but now I'm thinking it wasn't I'm sorry I hope your day is going well
Okay so anyway less joking answers, I answer fortune asks in exactly one way, which is with a fable or fairy tale, usually one which draws on this mixed mythology I muddled together from some broad strokes knowledge about physics, biology, the formation of the universe; a sprinkle of Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greek myth, a bit of my own Judaism, and a miscellaneous addition of my personal ideas like trying to avoid binaries or moral absolutes, resistance to the notion of some sort of eternal reward / punishment afterlife, resistance to monotheism, and probably some animism on top of everything.
The whole approximate world history both in the actual physical world and the metaphysical stories or myths is loosely arrayed in my head with a sense of different geographic settings and rough parallels to our world as most people see it, but the actual fables and stories themselves are allowed to transform to reflect that they exist as subjective perceptions of different parts of a magic world where things like living embodiments of the night or winter are or have been very much real, such that there is some common thread linking different cultural interpretations, and similar fairy tales will contradict one another without necessarily fundamentally contradicting the mythology itself.
Nearly every single fairy tale or fable I write is derived from the above framework, so basically anytime anyone asks for a fortune when I'm ready to make a fable I figure out a sentence fragment of premise and freehand the whole thing. But sometimes it takes a really, really long time to do fables and I make myself go in order unless I get one that's like obviously funning (like we do), and a very very few people sent some that gave me the squicks so I deleted em. But like otherwise 99% get answers just VERY SLOWLY.
Anyway, everything to do with this mythology is told in fables or fairy tales with the singular exception of Briar City, which is also set in the waning days of the metaphysical elements of the setting. But anyway, that's part of why Briar City is Like That.
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feathersnek · 9 months
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Feather, What On Earth Is Going On With Rays Names and Their Translations?
Why Neo-Eidyia instead of Neo-Idea and Idavoll instead of Isabelle? Why Baldr instead of Baldo as Rays JP spells it? Why have I seen you use Nazar previously but Nuadha now? Why does one name have 3 different versions depending on translation group? And why not just stick with how Rays romanizes it into English, since it's "official"?
Let's talk about why certain translations are chosen by me and parts of the fandom for names and terms in the Rays universe. I know many are confused by the many different interpretations of them, so let's split this into two parts.
First, I'll explain why I use the names and terms that I do as well as why you see certain translations. Second, we'll discuss why some are more loosely interpreted than others and why that's okay.
As it turns out, the intended names of Rays characters is usually very predictable, and aren't pulled out of nowhere. However JP doesn't always know how to romanize things. Not to mention romanization in JP media does not always equal proper translation. This'll be a long one, so I'll explain under the cut.
*Note: There will be Tales of the Rays story spoilers in some of these explanations
Part 1: Translation of Rays Names
So, why is Rays naming generally predictable? Because they often draw from mythology. Not only that but the vast majority of this mythology is Norse/Irish. And for Recollection, they've been pulling in a lot of Greek on top of the Greek we've seen in main plot. We've seen these themes over and over again in the plot, character naming, and character relationships. It's a joy to see how the inspired myths are woven into a new twist in the Rays universe's unique story.
Here are various examples:
Tir Na Nog: In Irish mythology, Tir Na Nog is "The land of the young." And in Rays, for the duration of the main story, Tir Na Nog's inhabitants do not age due to the capture of Chronos.
Fimbulvetr: Another name for the voidstorm in Rays. In Norse myth, this was the death storm that ended all life. In Rays, Fimbulvetr destroyed the original world, Nibelung, and continues to threaten Tir Na Nog.
Ix: Why is he named Ix? What does THAT have to do with mythology, Feather? It's as simple as it looks. Ix is the roman numeral 9. And 9 is a significant recurring number in Norse myth. (This is more of an interpretation than obvious name references, and the writer is ever mysterious in her intentions, but check out the significance of the number 9 in Norse sometime!)
Baldr: A god in Norse myth that was killed by his only weakness: Mistletoe. And in Recollection, Baldr introduces himself as Baldr Misteltein, his last name meaning Mistletoe.
Nuadha: The first king of the Tuatha Dé Danann (People of Dana) in Irish mythology, Nuadha of the Silver Arm. He lost the right of kingship after losing his right arm in battle, but later had it replaced with a silver substitute. That's right, Dana is also Irish. She is the mother god, who is further associated with the land. Considering Dana *is* Tir Na Nog in Rays, well... And not only does Rays Nuadha have a silver arm, but he gains his real body back at the end of Rays, matching the Irish myth where the king Nuadha also regains his flesh arm and takes back kingship.
Balor: An antagonist in Irish mythology that possesses the "evil eye" of destruction. In Rays, Balor's mirrite, Lugh possesses the evil eye and this trait is passed down in Balor's bloodline.
Lugh: In Irish myth, Balor's grandson that kills him. Lugh was said to wield a legendary spear and the battles between him and Balor were often attributed to thunderstorms, leading to speculation that he was a storm god. In Rays, Lugh is the cause of Nibelung's destruction, and therein Balor becomes a pillar god of Tir Na Nog. There is also a very important spear known as "Lugh's spear," and Balor is furthermore known as the "storm god" in Rays lore.
All this and so much more. The vast majority of Rays names are dripping with myth references and are fascinating to compare to how Rays itself nods to them.
So, now that we know Rays certainly consistently references myths, particularly Norse and Greek. Finding the intended namesake is often simple. Because these mythological names already have established Japanese spellings! So, if we were to say, plug in the JP spelling of the capital city in Recollection, Idavoll: イザヴェル, you quickly find the Norse myth it's referencing, and it's *not* Isabelle:
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In Norse myth, Idavoll stands where Asgard used to be after its destruction in Ragnarok. And built in Idavoll is Gimle. In Rays, Gimle is Liwanna's family line.
So why Neo-Eidyia? A couple of reasons. While it's true the JP spelling references the philosophy of "idea," there is already another term in Recollection, the "Idea Value" that uses this. Using Eidyia separates them and fits more properly as a kingdom name. Also both the philosophy "idea" and the myth "Eidyia" are of Greek origin and carry the root meaning "to see." When looking into Eidyia's Greek lore, there are many themes resembling those in Recollection. Of course, the theming of "idea" is also very intentional.
Which brings us to another fascinating aspect of Rays naming. The seemingly intentional double meaning of names. While only Miyajima knows if these are truly intended, they have occurred multiple times now. And we'll talk more about it in Part 2.
This is a case where translation is a bit touch and go with decisions! It won't always make sense 1 to 1, so some flexibility is needed at times.
Akin to how the word "Kimin" 棄民 didn't quite translate right as "outsider" or "refugee" in Recollection's world, so I decided on "wastelander." And in the case of "wraiths," I chose it because the actual term 幻影種 directly translates to "Phantom-type" or "Phantom-class" referring to a type of monster. So wraith gets this across more clearly! Not to mention, these are treated as special bracketed (quotation marks) terms in the script and specifically defined in narration.
For better or worse, languages are different from one another, and words often hold various connotations in their original language and context used, (Kanji can do a fun thing where sometimes one spelling can be swapped for another. While the direct translation of the word is the same, the *meaning* is different, which is why the more common/other character was switched out, so using the same word for both versions in English might not turn out quite right) so translation isn't always going to work 1 to 1 or as normally expected. Alas this is a whole topic of its own, so lets leave it at that here.
I want to touch on JP romanization. Do you really think that Ix was supposed to be spelled Ickx? Or knowing what we do of the intentional references, Baldr was supposed to be Baldo? You'll find that even in official content, the JP romanization of names differs.
Off the top of my head, in official JP Rays content, Baldr has been spelled as both "Baldo" and "Bardo." Now that's a simple case of L vs R, but what if I told you there was more? The official Rays JP spelling for Karia N is "Nevan," but do you know what spelling her filenames use in the game? "Nemain." Which is the old spelling of Irish "Neamhain", the myth her name is derived from that the fandom uses this modern Irish spelling of. Phillip has also been "officially" spelled multiple ways in Rays JP.
Unfortunately JP romanization spellings are just not always accurate. Though sometimes they are! Whether that is because they manage to pin it down early or because they're in contact with the localization team and keep them is a mystery to me, and it just seems to depend on what sticks over there, correct or not. This haphazard spelling holds true for many names in many pieces of media. Of course, it is still understandable to lean on them when there is no official translation, which we'll talk about in part 2.
But why does this happen? Because the languages are different and romanization is not necessarily translation! It's simply the romanized version of the Japanese spelling! Let's take a look at a fun spelling in Rays. The spelling of Balor's name. In JP it's spelled バロール.
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As we can see, this is truly representing the Irish myth of "Balor." But how is it spelled in Kana? "Barouru." Now, Balor in Irish myth *is* properly pronounced as "Bah-Lor" (akin to Valor starting with a B, but with more emphasis on the "lor" part like how you would pronounce the word "Lore") which is the pronunciation you roughly get in the JP spelling! This is another reference to the intended name. However, if you were to romanize that rather than translate it, you may not necessarily get the proper spelling of "Balor."
What does that mean? That the spelling of a foreign word in JP is often spelled based on the sound of the word rather than the origin spelling! So when you reverse it from JP... you end up with the spelling of the sounds! And this is what we see in the romanization of Baldr as "Baldo," because the JP spelling of the sounds is Barudo. However, the proper translation is nonetheless Baldr.
(Side note that things like vowels also have pronunciations different than English! For example "i" in Japanese is pronounced "ee" (like the English letter "e") rather than the English "eye." Which further throws a wrench into romanization team's decisions, because it's entirely possible for a romanized name to use an i where you would normally use an e for the proper translation! This is the case for many sounds of various letters that differ between the two languages)
Part 2: A Case For Different Spellings
Having said all that, a lot of spellings are more up to interpretation or easier to lean on! In my opinion, some are less lenient than others, and I get a bit picky about those, but in cases like Nazar (in irl myth, a ward against the evil eye. i.e. referencing Balor's evil eye in Rays' lore) vs Nuadha (The Irish reference we've discussed), you'll notice both of those are appropriate. Nazar is also the romanized JP version, closer to what we hear in game, AND easier to spell. This is a name I consider more flexible.
This is one of those sneaky double meaning names that may well be intentional. Considering this and hearing "Naaza" in the voiced content, well, even I used to use it!
And when you don't know what the real version is, there's nothing wrong with using Rays' official romanizations either. Though I would hope some things are more obvious, such as Ix. (Of course that one was properly localized as well, but regardless.)
And translators are going to have their own quirks as well, such as my interpretation of Neo-Eidyia which could very well be translated to Neo-Idea instead.
For the more lenient names, many of us have gotten used to accepting multiple spellings, and I think that's fine!
In Conclusion
There's a reason for certain translations. And I value translations that are taken from proper research and consideration. With Rays we have plenty of basis to get proper translations from! However, some select names are sneaking around with double meanings, and regardless of proper basis some translators will still arrive at a different spelling!
Personally, I am moving ever more towards thoroughly researched names and further fitting the terms to match the story intent and environment, even when it strays a bit, such as wraith or wastelander. And I'm putting careful consideration into how I translate such things going forward, as I have some rather ambitious translation plans in the future, as well as a channel for video translations now. Of course, there may be times when the story proves me wrong later, or just terms that are more up to interpretation. Alas, translation isn't easy and often has no single right answer.
So when it comes to my own more officially line by line translated content, I will be settling on as consistent theming and carefully researched name translations as much as possible. As such, I've changed from Nazar to Nuadha and Nevan to Neamhain.
Why? Because the myths fit more properly, and when it comes to Nuadha, and likely many other Irish names, especially with no fandom settled version, I will be trying to default to the modern spellings where I can in order to differentiate Nuadha (prince Woden) from Nuada (the god) in my translations. This is because "Nuada" is the older spelling. Thus, both more god-like and a nice way to differentiate the two of them.
There are so many neat myths tied to Rays, so I do recommend looking into a name or two every now and again to check out the original myth! If you know Rays decently, you'll find some very cool references!
And if you ever want me to talk in more detail about why I choose certain spellings or anything mentioned here, feel free to ask! I tried to keep this post mostly focused on the big picture!
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turbobyakuren · 1 year
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seeing some of the new designs you made for yuzuki and co im curious as to what your design process is? especially in terms of how you approach it in terms of folklore, i know it can be tricky to put that into words but seeing them made me wonder!
AAA I'm so glad I get to talk about my designs... I don't always know what I'm doing with those but I know enough to answer your questions!
All in all, I would define my approach in designing them in terms of folklore and mythology as similar as to how Touhou does it. I like to say I aim to integrate sufficient references to the Monster/Youkai/Legendary Creature's lore but also sprinkle in my own interpretations when I feel like it's possible AND also put the character's personality on the foreground when designing. It's all about balance and what makes sense for the character. For example, Naoko's design is more "urban" in its approach because of her personality, but I still snuck in some "that's-a-stretch" type references with her scarf being loosely based on the bakeneko's towel. Meanwhile, Akira's design has little to no proper references to Kitsune to underline how she wants little to nothing to do with Kitsunes themselves.
There was a time where I could just churn out written designs on the get go, but nowadays I think this is no longer something I think I can do because, you see, I learned how to draw and to think like a character designer. An amateur one, sure, but I feel like this process is the direction I want to go.
So I think my design process nowadays is as follow:
Define character concept. In my process, the character's personality and story is the very first step of the process. There are cases where the design comes first and then the story, but all in all, the story is what dictates the character.
Research about the elements that are part of the character's design. Not only the folklore surrounding the monster I am basing the MagiMon on, but also the pop-culture perception of that monster. It's always useful to know how it is perceived. In general, I know that whatever type of take i want to have on a certain myth, I know I want to go in a direction that I like, so it's good for me to know what I like and what I hate (This is especially the case for Greek Mythology characters, especially the Olympians)
BRAINSTORM! The most/least fun part and the one where it varies from character to character. Some characters have their designs outlined from the getgo, others take a big while for my brain to figure out something. But in general, I go on google image, pinterest or just browse books I have to build a visual library. Build a moodboard and whatnot!
Recently, I found that the best way for me to properly envision a new character is to mentally faceclaim the character with the closest character there is. For example, Vera, the Pegasus MagiMon (that I have yet to design), I picture her as just Platinum. That gives me a mold that i can just reshape in the future.
I also think that I want to find one thing that makes the character stands out from the rest. The most easy part is with the head: a good tip I have received is to have a very specific head silhouette for the character so that they can be recognized from a glance in a crowd. Akira's spiky hair, Gashadokuro's hood, Naoko's pulled hair, Hikaru's one side front bangs. Yuzuki's simple shape also distinguishes her from the rest since she's the protagonist.
This step also depends on how solidified my character's design is, but I sometimes doodle the character or parts of the character either with a loose brush or on kraft paper. To test the grounds.
And next... Well if i have the courage... I draw them! And then I color them. I usually decide on colors on the go, so I don't know if I have any tips to give related to that. I try to follow my gut feeling and go on a "if it fits, it's fine by me" philosophy.
I hope I answered your question! If not you can still ask me for precisions and I'll gladly answer them. Character designs are my passion and discussing that is such a pleasure no matter what!
As a last note, my favourite character designs, and what i usually turn to when i'm in a pinch: Arknights, Touhou Project, Guilty Gear (Strive especially) and Dungeon Meshi. Akihiko Yoshida's art is also a good source of inspiration of mine. Theree's many more but i don't want to make it any longer.
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rgraves1 · 11 months
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The Great Flood by Peeters the Elder (17th century). Source: Greek Legends and Myths website
Deucalion’s Flood
ON HIS return to Olympus, Zeus in disgust let loose a great flood on the earth, meaning to wipe out the whole race of men; but Deucalion, king of Phthia, warned by his father Prometheus the Titan, whom he had visited in the Caucasus, built an ark, victualled it, and went aboard with his wife Pyrrha, a daughter of Epimetheus. Then the South Wind blew, the rain fell, and the rivers roared down to the sea which, rising with astonishing speed, washed away every city of the coast and plain; until the entire world was flooded, but for a few mountain peaks, and all mortal creatures seemed to have been lost, except for Deucalion and Pyrrha. (Deucalion’s Flood, The Greek Myths by Robert Graves, pp 138-143).
Zeus’ fury had been aroused by Lycaon, King of Arcadia and his sons, who insisted on sacrificing young boys to the King of Heaven and eating them in a soup also consisting of animal innards, despite Zeus himself finding the practice abhorrent. Deucalion’s ark eventually alighted on the peak of Mount Parnassus and as the floodwaters subsided, he and his wife emerged and begged Zeus that mankind be renewed. Zeus sent Hermes to assure the couple that whatever they wished would be granted. Themis the Titaness then appeared and told Deucalion and Pyrrha to ‘throw your mother’s bones behind you’ which the mortals wisely interpreted as a reference to Mother Earth, as their own mothers were deceased. Deucalion and Pyrrah therefore picked up rocks from the earth and threw them over their shoulders: the rocks miraculously became men and women depending on whether the king or queen had thrown them.
This story is very similar to the Biblical story of Noah. Graves suggests that both legends have a Babylonian ancestry, and refer to an actual flooding of the Mesopotamian plain in the third milennium BC.
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bluiex · 2 years
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So for Hades and Persephone myth. I don’t think there is a wrong way to interpret it since the beauty of Greek mythology is just how you interpret it and I love how everyone made it into a positive thing which I dig!
it’s a big FUCK YOU MISOGYNISTS FROM THE PAST WE MAKE PERSEPHONE A GIRLBOSS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY YOU HELPED CREATE!
But like it’s kinda fucked how this myth is now seen in one way since it was told so many times we don’t know the first word of mouth of it (but that’s the beauty of it! But god people like to die in their hills about myths, I just want it to be seen in every POV without taking away from the other. Like Hades and Persephone later not when she just gotten kidnapped get to be happy and in love, but that doesn’t take away the fear of Demeter thinking something horrible happened to Persephone and being rightfully scared given the context of Greek mythology)
Like this myth after so many times has been told by mouth and looses some of the story has painted Demeter as a helicopter mother instead of a mom who is so scared of her daughter getting kidnapped and hurt and when she looks away for a moment, Kore ( Persephone’s original name before it gotten changed) is nowhere in this plane, looking through the earth in grief, destroying it since she is the reason why the earth lives, and trying to see if she makes the earth die a lot so someone will fess up, and then being told by Zeus in a scared manner, “oh yeah I married Kore off without her or you knowing,” and just, fucking Greek poets favorite things to write about are goddesses being powerless in situations like this.
Look at Zeus’s wife being always being cheated on and made to be in the wrong if she retaliates (it’s a very unhealthy relationship that made the Trojan war rose), look at Ariadne being left behind to die by Theseus and not given much credit, look at Medusa being dragged into Athena’s temple by Poseidon and was turned into a gorgon without Poseidon getting any slack even by Athena herself!
and just, there’s so much misogyny put into these tales by the Greek poets. Every women in greek mythology is either a tragedy or is depicted as someone who’s in the wrong for everything.
It’s sad that when it comes to historical context and such, this myth was used to make kidnapping someone you’re going to court (even without talking to them at all) as fine and it just disgusts me. But it’s a melancholy but happy feeling of how we make this tragedy about a mother losing her daughter and destroying the earth to look for her into something completely else, but the feeling of how this myth was intended for is still there somehow.
Like as if making Hades completely innocent (he’s not fully innocent, he isn’t the perfect dude, very flawed but not entirely his fault for Zeus being a fucking asshole) and demonizing Demeter ( a lot of people make her out to be abusing Persephone even though she’s paranoid, and was proven right in her paranoia in the myth) is how we can make this a girl power depiction of this myth instead of the tragedy and horror in the older ones. I think that’s the scary part, we can erase so much without erasing history since this story was originally just word of mouth. That we make it girl power only in this way by demonizing Demeter, but not in other ways, and Persephone is powerful and stuff, she gained her merit but I don’t want every part of this myth’s flaws and traits changed to just support one side. It be best to account on how two truths can exist at once.
That’s the beauty of Greek mythology
- the anon who knows too much but too little about Greek mythology. Idk what to call myself
MMMMM GREEK MYTHOLOGY *slurps this up* But yeah this.. I love all your points in this dude. A lot of people don't really see it how a lot of this is actually told, how the men back then and how word of mouth makes it weird. Like the story itself its kinda fucked up in away, but like you said it shouldnt be changed to support one side but kept as is and seen that two truths can exist together.. But in a sense its like welp what can we do, its the internet now. ppl will make something its not, and run with it and twist it how they please to make themselves happy LOL But MAN i love greek mythology and this just made my night
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azvolrien · 2 years
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Then - after ringing to confirm it was open, as I’d received conflicting intelligence - I made for the St Vigeans (rhymes with pigeons) Sculptured Stones Museum, built into two adjoining cottages in the village of that name just north of Arbroath. This was probably also a major religious centre for the Picts, and some of the recurring themes in the carvings suggest that it might have been a monastery dedicated to Saint Anthony. 
This photoset focusses on one of the most important stones in the collection, academically referred to as ‘St Vigeans 1′ but more evocatively known as the Drosten Stone. Like Meigle 4 it’s missing a big chunk, but the carvings on what remains are pretty spectacular. One side shows a bunch of different animals. Most of them are easily identifiable as creatures you can see in Scotland today, or would have been able to in the days of the Picts; you can see a wild boar, hounds pursuing a stag, a bird of prey - perhaps an osprey - eating a fish and a bear menacing a hind suckling her fawn, as well as a little guy who is most likely going to be savaged by the boar before he can loose his crossbow. But then there’s the odd creature above the boar; the goat-like horn, long tail and wolf-like muzzle make me think it could be the sculptor’s idea of the Chimaera of Greek myth.
Then on the cross-side we’ve got some more odd little critters, including a snarling panther, some dragons and serpents interlaced and otherwise, and... whatever the hell that thing below the panther is meant to be. The guide at the museum told me that it’s been interpreted as a catoblepas, a legendary creature described in various Roman sources (including Pliny) as having a long neck with a head so heavy that it dragged on the ground. But it could also be a horribly misshapen camel. Or who knows, maybe a time traveller showed the sculptor a picture of a stegosaurus!
Finally, why it’s called the Drosten Stone: very unusually among Pictish stones, it bears a small inscription in Latin text, down near the floor on the side next to the little crossbowman. It says ‘DROSTEN: IPEUORET ETTFOR CUS’. What does this mean? Various interpretations! But the usual one is that Drosten, Uoret and Forcus are people’s names.
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toonatic92 · 6 months
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[Image description: A watercolour picture of my Homestuck fan-troll Deo in her room. She is kneeling on her bed and using a screwdriver to fix a scanning device on her lap. She has long black hair in a loose ponytail and is wearing a T-shirt with an alien on it and flower-patterned leggings. Her bedsheet is pattered with stars and constellations and her pillow has rockets, UFOs, planets and galaxies on it. There are books about conspiracies and cyptids on the floor, as well as several snake and lizard plush toys, a toy alien, a Bill Cipher doll, a sickle and a multi-lens magnifying glass. There are glass tanks containing pet snakes on a table, an old computer with computer chair, a wheelchair and a potted plant lined up against the wall. The walls are covered in posters of troll versions of British sitcoms, an 'I Want to Believe' poster with a UFO on it, a 'Mothman Sighting Zone' poster, a Gravity Falls poster and a poster with a crescent moon and eye symbol that says 'Don't Trust Anyone'. There are small pyramid-shaped terrariums containing plants hanging from the ceiling and police caution tape with alien symbols on it strewn around the room.]
I did a watercolour picture of my Homestuck fan character Deo and her respiteblock. She lives on a livestock farm in the idyllic countryside and cultivates many interests in between running the farm.
Her main interest is investigating conspiracy theories, cryptids, aliens and urban legends with various homemade devices, like the one she's spent all night working on here. She has books about the Lunacracy and other pseudoscientific subjects, as well as posters and her old computer, which she only uses to monitor conspiracy forums because she's not good with computers. She's into aliens the most because she often feels alien compared to her friends, and also because she's been a keen astronomer since she was a kid.
Her bed is space themed and is more for sitting or laying on when she's working because she sleeps in a recuperacoon like most trolls. Working here is better for her than working at a desk, since she has multiple sclerosis and can't sit up or balance when she has flare-ups. The wheelchair in the corner is also for when she can't walk because of a flare-up. It was decorated by one of her friends with spray paint and plastic wheat and poppies.
Her other big interest is herpetology, studying and caring for reptiles and amphibians. She has a lot of pet snakes, lizards and frogs in glass tanks and has many stim toys based on them, which were made by Vistie, who is a seamstress. Deo also has succulents and other houseplants, some in glass terrariums hanging from the ceiling and some dotted around the house.
Because she's a farmer, she likes a lot of rural sitcoms and has posters of them on her wall. I basically picked every rural British sitcom I could think of and made troll versions. From left to right: The Vicar of Dibley - The Subjugglator of Dibley, Last of the Summer Wine - Last of the Solar Sweeps Wine, and All Creatures Great and Small - All Lusii Great and Terrifying. She also likes the troll version of Gravity Falls, because it's a very cryptid and conspiracy themed show. Also on her wall and scattered around her bedroom is the troll version of police caution tape (drone tape?), which she collects from crime scenes as a 'fuck you' to authority and cover-ups. It was meant to say 'CAUTION, DRONE. DO NOT CROSS' but I might have fucked up on drawing some of the letters.
As a side note, my troll OCs are based on Greek gods. Deo is based on Demeter, the goddess of agriculture, which is why Deo is a farmer. Her interest in conspiracy theories is sort of a loose interpretation of Demeter being associated with the Eleusinian Mysteries, an ancient cult with secret rites, based around the myth of Persephone's abduction by Hades and Demeter's search for her daughter. Her interest in snakes and reptiles is based on Demeter's chariot being drawn by winged serpents and her turning a rude boy into a gecko once. These themes will end up being present throughout her session.
Medium: Watercolour pens on paper.
Links to other versions: DeviantART Instagram
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thesoftestofpetals · 8 months
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Happy Sunday Ask-A-Thon, week 4 for @ask-a-thon . How did you come up with The Curse Of Athena? What made you want to write that specific idea/wip?
Hello! Thank you for the ask! I think this is actually the first time I've ever been asked this (in general, not just on Tumblr), so uh.. prepare for a super long reply-
So, TCoA is.. a bit of a mess when it comes to how I came up with it. It's a mesh of other stories, but mainly 2/3 of the first original stories I ever wrote: Undying and an abandoned (for now, at least) project called Soul. However, it also takes on some characteristics of various books I read around that time, as well as prompts.
I'll explain each influence individually, that way this (hopefully) doesn't become one long wall of text.
Undying:
Okay, so Undying is the biggest influence here, since I was still writing it around the time that I came up with TCoA. TSOP was just beginning at this point, so it wasn't as big of an influence as it would've been if TCoA had come later.
The main things that came from this one are:
ITALIAN INFLUENCE!!
The magic system
Immortals (very minimal in TCoA)
The Italian influence comes through the most though, as this was a time when I was kind of revisiting some of my Italian family and traditions. As a result, TCoA begins in modern Italy (the MCs of UD are both Italian and immortal, however that story takes place in the USA).
The magic system is the second biggest thing taken from / inspired by UD. Later on in TCoA, the mágos use energy-based magic, which is a slightly altered version of how Modern Magic works in UD.
Finally, immortals! A common feature of my stories, TCoA also has a few immortal characters. However, unlike other stories I've written, there's only one: Athena herself. Technically all of the deities are also immortal, but they don't play too big of a role overall.
Soul:
I'm pretty sure this was like.. my first original story ever. I never finished it, but it was based around soulmates and those various prompts on how they meet and such. I'm sure you probably know the ones I mean. Anyways, from this one, I altered the idea of soulmates from this book and used it in TCoA instead. Kind of as a way to keep this story alive, but also because soulmates would give TCoA so much more drama.
Books:
The main book that I took some VERY loose inspiration from for TCoA was Kingdom of the Wicked. This was moreso what solidified my decisions on the Italian influence and magic inclusion than anything else and, overall, didn't play a super big role? But it did help me pick a setting and plan out how the mágos would operate a bit more!
Prompts:
Okay, so I no longer have the exact prompts that inspired me, but I do remember that one had something to do with a weeping angel, which is where the 'curse' part of the title comes in. This didn't play a huge role either, but it did give me ideas for how to create the overall conflict of the story.
Mythology:
This one is probably the most self-explanatory of them all. I've always loved both Greek and Roman mythology (as well as others) and found it interesting how they're so similar at the base level, but can have.. wildly different interpretations of the same myths in some cases. TCoA includes both the Greek and Roman sides of a few popular myths and kind of addresses those differences. Basically, it's my way to make a more modern / magical realism version of myths without being Percy Jackson 2.0.
Overall, the creation of TCoA was.. a long and difficult process. But ultimately I'm super happy with how it turned out and, aside from TSOP, it's probably the story I'm the proudest of due to the research, detail, and world building that went into its creation. I learned a lot and had a ton of fun writing it! :D
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wisheswagered · 8 months
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okay, continuing from my last post. i’m using a very loose interpretation of greek mythology here because idv’s universe is different from our own & to compensate for my lack of knowledge, whoops!
what if the kreiburg’s, in the ancient past, were blessed or rewarded by euterpe somehow, perhaps for being one of the last/longest standing families to worship her even as the centuries passed?
this is what gave them their incredible skill at music and composing. the kreiburg’s in the modern day/idv’s era don’t exactly believe in euterpe’s literal existence in the same way, though maybe some of them do, but they still value their traditions and religious practices involving her very highly.
however, for whatever reason, frederick wasn’t blessed by euterpe, perhaps due to being chosen by another muse - melpomene, instead. i’m not sure what caused her to choose him in particular. maybe it was due to the death of his twin, or his psychotic disorders, and she empathized with him due to those things - or maybe they were caused by her blessing instead. i’m unsure at the moment, though i’d really like to develop this point more...
regardless, though, frederick still inherited his family’s love of music - but as someone not favored by euterpe, his composing skills could never match up to their standards. in contrast, to an extent, he’s followed by tragedy instead - which might have influenced his ultimate fate in the manor as well.
melpomene might consider him a child of hers of sorts, and since in some sources she was said to be the mother of the sirens, maybe that links frederick to the sirens in some way as well?? i’m not sure yet. i’d just love for him to have some link to the sea if possible because i’m obsessed with it help
ALTERNATIVE VERSION: euterpe and the muses don’t actually exist and are merely a product of myth/religion, but the kreiburg’s still believe in them/worship them. frederick in particular prays to euterpe often, asking for guidance for his composing and believing that he missed out on her blessing - but in reality, the kreiburg family’s skill in music is just a genetic talent that frederick happened not to inherit. he feels a connection of sorts with melpomene due to the tragedy of his sibling’s death and his lack of talent, but it’s not one he wants to acknowledge at all. that could be all/it could end there, but maybe some other supernatural force - afterall, we know the supernatural exists in idv through characters like hastur and yidhra - heard his prayers, and responded to them in it’s own way...
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Verboten Passion
A very loose interpretation of Hero & Leander, a Greek myth, but make it Cult. Original character Quin x Chris Evans. Surprise! This is my 2nd Chris Evans fic.
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Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Completed Series.
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