#What Elliot did was suicide. What Alice did was suicide. What Lacie did was (to an extent) suicide.

[panvani]

The Vincent argument

#God just . People do really read MochiJun and think the thing she was trying to say was that suicidal people are evil #Even though she is incredibly consistent in her empathy for suicidal people and even the act of suicide itself #What Elliot did was suicide. What Alice did was suicide. What Lacie did was (to an extent) suicide. #And the narrative is very clear that each of these people were victims and their decision was one of genuine concern for other people #Getting into arguments along the lines of like... saying that Vincent's ultimate motivation was to protect other people #And other people saying ''no he just wanted to die'' these aren't mutually exclusive!!! #That the story very unambiguously give Vincent a happy ending is a pretty big indication that we are at the very least #Supposed to see him as someone worthy of happiness!!! And to be so unempathetic as to see someone endure that much abuse and humiliation #And assume their subsequent desire for suicide was just bc they're selfish and can't stand not having complete control over other people #Is just. UGHHHHHHH #And people are doing the exact same shit to Domi people rly can't handle any kind of nuanced depiction of suicide #Ofc Domi's attempted suicide isn't rly for Noé's well being/ultimately a product of her own despair #The point being made is that abuse fundamentally alters your relationship to other people and your ability to process reality #Not that Domi is evil bc she was in agony and wanted it to stop #Ough #suicide #logxx #logam

[lalesath-blog]

In the post Vnc vs Pandora Hearts, you said the all the PH characters felt "whole" I'm planning on making a novel of some sort and want to know what you mean by "whole" can you give me like a long-ass paragraph of what is whole and what is not? Or what is it that made you feel the characters were "whole"? Thank you!😘

Oh dear lord, anon. Okay. Before we start, let me just tack on a disclaimer saying that… where as I believe most of what I’m about to say is generally accepted/“fact” some things may undoubtedly be or sound more subjective. So just keep in mind that this is my own perspective on the matter. Also: PANDORA HEARTS SPOILERS (since I assume you’ve read it?)

This is kind of a … tricky thing to answer. Saying “they should feel like a real person” is unhelpfully vague. Not to mention, plenty of real people are decidedly shallow;;

Achieving realistic characters starts with knowing them as the writer. Really knowing them. Knowing where they grew up. What their first pet was. What they eat as comfort food. What their “mindless” habits are. How many nicknames they’ve had. How many nicknames still remain. The feeling they get when they think of the nickname they haven’t heard spoken for 6 years because the only person who ever used it walked out of their life…. Obviously I just mean to say that you should KNOW your characters. Even seemingly trivial details. I’m not saying you have to know what color nail polish your character wears on Wednesdays, but getting a grasp on little things can shed a little light on personality quirks/habits that will make your character more nuanced.

Lots of little details tend to form tangible, meaningful results. Combine that with some original plot details and voilà~ Example: Knowing Sharon is very much into romance content gives some insight into how easily flustered and excitable she gets even regarding her interactions with Break. How she reacts to Alice’s curiosity and her kiss with Oz. She’s a romantic. In more than one sense. Which means she’s also going to be insecure about her body not developing… which ties into a plot detail about legal contracts.

—-Another really obvious thing… is that they need to grow. Develop. And despite popular belief, this development doesn’t have to be positive. There simply has to be a discernible process of getting from point A to point B. Sometimes this is more subtle (especially with secondary characters). And sometimes this is abrupt… but there always has to be meaning to it.

Example: Something I really, really loved… not to break anyone’s heart again… was Elliot’s flip. He was adamantly against self-sacrifice in the beginning of the manga. He tore into Oz, trying to communicate that that way of thinking was harmful/disrespectful to the people he cared about. And how that kind of thinking was inherently selfish/self-righteous and would only hurt the people he claimed to love… And Oz trying to claim that it would be FOR them.

Cut to Elliot choosing to sacrifice his own life to “end the nightmare” (so to speak)… and even to save Oz the burden of having to kill him.“I’m sorry, Leo.”

(I’m not crying… You’re crying).

—-In general though, I think being able to make your reader feel sympathy or EMPATHY for your characters is extremely important. ESPECIALLY when it comes to antagonists, imo. There’s nothing worse than a flat villain. If you don’t care about the source causing your protagonist to struggle, you can’t really take the story seriously, you know? And I cared about every damn character in PH. No matter which side they were leaning towards at any given time.

And characters should engage the reader. Cause them to think. Always. If you have someone questioning their own morality, you’ve hit god tier (Psycho Pass and Code Geass hit me hard with this). Make your characters convince me. All of them. Of everything. If I can’t be convinced they’re right, I at least need to understand. Which usually means delving into multiple layers of emotions. Example:–What does Vincent Want?Vince Wants to Erase His Existence For GilBecause He Wants Gil To Be HappyBecause Gil Never Abandoned Him–Why would he think Gil should abandon him?Because he was a child of misfortune born to parents who abandoned him/them and he felt he was nothing but a burden on his brother.–Why is he willing to go as far as killing himself?Because, due to the above, he never had a sense of self-worth in the first place… and the further trauma/guilt he sustained after the tragedy of sablier made it all the worse.

~~~Multiple Layers & Repeating Patterns~~~ Makes him feel super real, doesn’t it?And sure, Vincent comes across as an asshole a lot of the time… especially early on. But did I cry over his feelings for Gil and when he hugged Ada? You bet I did. Not to mention, I had Echo’s perspective of him as well. Which is another important detail. Characters adding more dimensions to each other through their various povs. 

Aaand now to the super obvious. Characters should have both negative/positive bits. Protagonists generally lean WAY TOO FAR onto the positive side (for me)… minus their one (1) hang-up. Which is usually a simple, easily explainable complex. Like the overly generic [UNDERDOG] issue…. ANYWAY.

People have flaws. People have insecurities. People have bad habits and different ways of reacting to conflict. Different reasons for acting the way they do. Make sure you know them. Example:Leo, for instance, comes across as being subdued. But he’s more volatile than Elliot. Why does he present as subdued? Because in their context, Elliot’s fire tends to put his out. How does Leo confront conflict? By literally letting someone else take control from him while he tries to ignore it. He’s been an escapist his entire life. Hair in his eyes. Glasses that block his vision. Books to distract himself with. Etc. It’s a reoccurring theme with Leo even in his day-to-day demeanor… which means it was important to know from the get-go.

And to cont. from a bit above… everyone also has bits of light. Even a sociopath. Maybe you create a sociopathic serial killer who, every Thursday, leaves a homeless boy a bag of take-out in the alley behind the restaurant the killer and his ex used to visit… before he killed them. The boy had seen him do it, yet hadn’t screamed or alerted anyone. And now your killer practices this sentimental ritual that he doesn’t understand. Maybe, by the end, he forms his own understanding.I think making the reader feel curious never hurts. Make them form questions they want answers to. Even little ones. If I never wonder about ANYTHING, there’s probably not enough detail. I’m not even saying there have to be definitive answers just… I want to notice things. Like why is break always eating candy? Does he actually like sweet things? He didn’t SEEM the type in the past? Is it just to compensate for his former personality? Is it because of Shelly? Is it a shout-out to Emily? Like with the doll? Did he used to smoke? Also he doesn’t drink??? Why? 

Really good characters? It’s like looking at them through a prism. By the end, you’ve seem them in a dozen shades of light. Example:

—-Xerxes Break:The MentorThe Loyal ServantThe Protector/The KnightThe Serial KillerThe VictimThe Wild CardThe Suicide RiskThe Comic Relief The BAMFThe Needy ChildThe Cold, Near-RecluseThe Brother FigureThe Partner  The Unhinged ClownThe [Tragic] HeroEtc.

He’s played dozens of roles on his own and through his relationships with other characters. Some of which are exceedingly different.

When you really get down to it, I think I personally also love the characters in PH so much because I can find something to relate to in all of them.Whether it be Lacie’s otherworldy dissociation, Leo’s escapist tendencies, Sharon’s drunken queen play, Oswald’s bluntness, or Vincent’s self-worth issues… I just. They feel like so much more? From their quirks & hobbies (Ada’s what… VOODOO room? hahaha/the trio of book nerds/Break and his doll… and his candy/Alice and being a massive carnivore/Gil smoking to emulate Oscar… and being afraid of cats/Elliot secretly ADORING cats but not wanting to admit it;;). To their contradictions. Their incorrect views on themselves. And on each other. The various self-realizations. The great dialogue. Just… asdfghjkl

ARGH. It’s SO hard to explain. Just. Characters are more than their goals and their easily definable trope traits. They’re more than their role in the story they’re in and that should come across.

#answered #Anonymous #i hope this is even remotely helpful #it's like 1am and i'm rambling