#a season dealing with dean's 40 years of torture and how he eventually broke

[mittensmorgul]

This talk of the early seasons gives me another question: do you think the demons were trying to break John in hell? Like, were they trying to break the first seal with John a couple years before Dean? Or do you think breaking Dean was the original plan all along? (I'm aware the writers wouldn't have known about the seals while writing John being in hell seasons 1/2. I'm concerned about the Watsonian perspective here.) Thanks for your wisdom btw, I love your perspective on this stuff 😬

Hi there! First off, thanks! I do my best, and I’m glad you’re enjoying it :D

Second, wheee! Watsonian perspective is what I care most about, so I’ll stick to that. Well, mostly… the one thing I feel I do need to bring up is the timeline of s2, which I would suggest falls roughly over the span of time during which it airs– that’s to say that 2.01 (where John dies) and 2.22 (where John pops out of Hell and gives the assist in killing Azazel) are approximately eight to eleven months apart, depending on which theory of the timeline you subscribe to.

We know that 2.22 takes place immediately after the events of 2.21, which we have a concrete date for– Dean sells his soul on May 2, 2007. According to the Superwiki, John was killed by Azazel on July 19, 2006, but that’s a guess based on the date listed on the heart monitor of the girl who dies in the hospital in 2.01. And we all know how… timey-wimey those sorts of props can be, and I’m uncomfortable making definitive timeline estimates based on just those things. But for the purposes of this post, we’ll assume the range of potential timeline for 2.01 runs between late July and late September 2006 (since 2.01 aired on September 28, 2006, and often without other concrete dates, we assume canon runs approximately parallel to our real time).

So, John was in Hell for somewhere between 8 and 10 months, approximately, of canon standard time. But what do we really know about that time he spent in Hell?

We know DEAN’S experience in Hell, where he was being specifically worked over to the point of breaking. We know that his four months (actually more like four and a half– from May 2, 2008 through his resurrection date of September 18, 2008), but that it actually felt more like 40 years to him.

I need to stress this specifically, because the fandom assumption has always been “well, this is just what time is like uniformly throughout Hell, and not a targeted, concentrated experience catered specifically to accelerating Dean’s progression to surrender and pick up the blade himself, in fulfillment of the prophecy.”

I… always assumed that Dean’s experience was unique in Hell, and that– based on every other glimpse we’ve seen of Hell– Time runs… pretty much like normal Earth time there. Think of Crowley’s meeting with Cas in 6.20, in Hell’s waiting line. Or 11.09-11.10 (where we see more of Hell than ever before– both Crowley’s “dining room” there, several passageways, and the “stage cage” in Limbo), where time in Hell parallels exactly the characters who are still on Earth. While waiting for Dean and then Cas to arrive, for example, Sam only spends about half an hour with Lucifer in the cage alone, and Crowley and Rowena only spend the same amount of in-show time there as it takes for Dean and Cas to arrive, respectively. Finally, we have 8.19, wherein we know Sam had exactly 24 hours to break into Hell, retrieve Bobby, and escape to be picked up by the reaper who never arrived because Crowley was killed. Sam’s time “in Hell” exactly paralleled Dean’s time on Earth, as well as “purgatory time,” which we know runs approximately parallel to Earth Time after Dean spent “about a year” there.

So the logical conclusion is that “Hell Time” is malleable, but that Dean’s experience there was… unique. According to the prophecy they were ALL trying to bring about, Dean was put on the Break-The-Righteous-Man-Speed-Run plan. And I do believe this was a highly specific circumstance, and that Dean’s “Hell Time Dilation” was specific to his time in Hell, and not a universal blanket statement on how time works in Hell in general.

So… I postulate that John only spent those 8-10 months in “normal time” in Hell. And despite Alastair’s taunts in 4.16:

Alastair: John Winchester. Made a good name for himself. A hundred years. After each session, I’d make him the same offer I made you. I’d put down my blade if he picked one up.Dean: Just give me the demon’s name, Alastair.Alastair: But he said nein each and every time. Oh, damned if I couldn’t break him. Pulled out all the stops, but John, he was, well, made of something unique. The stuff of heroes. And then came Dean. Dean Winchester. I thought I was up against it again. But daddy’s little girl, he broke. He broke in thirty. Oh, just not the man your daddy wanted you to be, huh, Dean?

Because JOHN WAS NEVER THE ONE THAT NEEDED TO BREAK. But Alastair was intimately familiar with Dean’s experience, intimately familiar with how to HURT DEAN SPECIFICALLY, and this was an excellent try. But John… was NEVER the righteous man who needed to break, according to the prophecy. It ALWAYS had to be Dean. So… why would John have been tortured that way?

Not to mention, if John HAD been literally strapped to Alastair’s table, tortured constantly for his entire time in Hell, then how the heck did he manage to sneak out the Hellgate in 2.22? Like… think about it for a second.

The demons who escaped were essentially “in the right place at the right time,” because the one demon Azazel was trying to let out– which we won’t learn until 4.22– was Lilith.

We assume that the other demons who managed to sneak through before the gates were slammed shut happened to be Lilith-adjacent– such as Ruby (who knew Lilith’s whole plan from the start), and other demons who were already loyal to Lilith (such as Casey from 3.04, and Tammi from 3.09, and eventually all the demons Lilith surrounded herself with in 3.12 and 3.16).

And yet… out strolled John Winchester. Because Hell literally didn’t need him anymore. Dean had already made his deal. The clock was ticking on the guy they ACTUALLY needed. And heck if that doesn’t parallel exactly what Zachariah said to Adam in 5.18:

ZACHARIAH: Hey, don’t get me wrong. You’ve been a hell of a sport, really. Good stuff. But the thing is, you’re not so much the “chosen one” as you are…a clammy scrap of bait.ADAM: No…but what about the stuff that you said? I’m supposed to fight the devil.ZACHARIAH: Mmm, not so much. Hey, if it’s any consolation, you happen to be the illegitimate half-brother of the guy we do care about. That’s not bad, is it?ADAM: So you lied…about everything.ZACHARIAH: We didn’t lie. We just avoided certain truths to manipulate you. 

Because that’s the thing with this show– Heaven and Hell are pretty much the same. Sam goals, same methods, same objectives, just with a different set of aesthetics, a different interior decorator if you will.

If John had actually been tortured the way Alastair claimed in 4.16, would he have just been at liberty to conveniently stroll through the gate in 2.22? Would he have even been able to leave at all? Would he have looked so fresh as a daisy? I mean

Looks pretty good for a dude just strolled outta hell, you know? Not even the least bit demon-y, right? And we know it takes a heck of a lot less time than a century for a human soul to be demonized in Hell… So everything else– aside from Alastair’s statement to Dean in 4.16, which was a deliberately targeted barb specifically said to make Dean doubt himself while he was actively torturing the demon who’d tortured HIM for four decades and therefore HIGHLY suspect in context of the rest of canon– would suggest that John had been basically stashed in Hell’s Cold Storage for about 8 months while the demons were meticulously arranging circumstances on Earth to set up the events of 2.21-2.22, luring Dean into selling his soul for Sam, and Azazel getting the Devil’s Gate opened to let Lilith escape.

Because strangely enough, I believe the Crossroads Demon in 2.08 more than I trust Alastair in 4.16:

DEAN: Can you bring him back? My dad?DEMON: Of course I can. Just as he was. Your dad would live a long and natural life, like he was meant to. That’s a promise.DEAN: What about me?DEMON: I could give you ten years. Ten long good years with him. That’s a lifetime. The family can be together again. John, Dean, Sammy. The Winchester boys all reunited. (she advances towards him) Look. Your dad’s supposed to be alive. You’re supposed to be dead. So we’ll just set things straight, put things back in their natural order. And you get ten extra years on top. That’s a bonus.

John was never the one they actually wanted. John was never going to work as the Righteous Man, or as Michael’s True Vessel for the purposes of the specific prophecies of the Apocalypse. As Gabriel once said in 5.08:

GABRIEL: You sorry sons of bitches. Why do you think you two are the vessels? Think about it. Michael, the big brother, loyal to an absent father, and Lucifer, the little brother, rebellious of Daddy’s plan. You were born to this, boys. It’s your destiny! It was always you! As it is in heaven, so it must be on earth. One brother has to kill the other.DEAN: What the hell are you saying?GABRIEL: Why do you think I’ve always taken such an interest in you? Because from the moment Dad flipped on the lights around here, we knew it was all gonna end with you. Always.

So… no, I think John’s tenure in Hell was probably a boring (compared to Dean’s) few months spent adjacent to Lilith so she could keep an eye on him in case Dean did take some sort of demon deal to trade his life back for John’s before they were scheduled to.

And finally, a bit of a Doylist justification for all of that: I don’t think any of this was planned back when s2 was being written. I don’t think they’d considered the later retcon of s4 and Dean’s “forty years” in Hell while writing s2. I don’t think they’d thought any of this was part of some larger prophecy of the Apocalypse yet. None of that came about until 4.01, because there had NEVER been any intent to introduce Angels or Heaven into the cosmology of that universe until that point anyway. So… they made the most out of what they had already stated canonically, and left it to us to make the most sense out of it. And this ^^ is my best, least plot-holey, most canon-compliant theory based on the entirety of canon. :)

#spn 2.01 #spn 2.22 #spn 4.16 #spn 5.08 #spn 5.18 #spn 4.22 #spn 3.04 #spn 3.09 #spn 3.12 #spn 3.16 #spn 2.08 #spn cosmology #the ghost of john winchester #heaven hell purgatory and the empty #spn 6.20 #spn 11.10 #spn 8.19 #Anonymous #spn timeline

[mittensmorgul]

So I've been having Thoughts and Feelings about Dean being the lead torturer for TFW. In 10x21 and also in 13x22 (and obviously in 4x16 and probably others I've missed). What do you think?

Hi there. I have had loads of thoughts and feelings about this, but probably not more than Dean himself has. S4 was agonizing as the true horror of what he experienced in Hell unfolded. We learned little by little what actually happened to him. First that he remembered it at all (in 4.06! IT TOOK UNTIL 4.06 for even US the audience to learn he remembered things about Hell), and Sam didn’t even know that Dean remembered any of it until Uriel told Sam to ask Dean what he remembered in 4.07.

I’m putting this under a cut, because this essentially turned into a retrospective of torture on Supernatural post 4.01, and heeeeck it’s kinda dark. It also got really, really long.

Sam begins pestering Dean for details in 4.08, and at the end of the episode Dean tells him he’s not going to lie anymore, but he’s not gonna talk about it, either. Because it was just THAT traumatizing for him. EIGHT EPISODES LATER.

It’s not until the final scenes of 4.10 that Dean breaks down and tearfully confesses some of his experience to Sam.

Dean: It wasn't four months, you know.Sam: What?Dean: It was four months up here, but down there... I don't know. Time's different. It was more like 40 years.Sam: My God.Dean: They, uh... They sliced and carved and tore at me in ways that you... Until there was nothing left. And then, suddenly... I would be whole again... like magic... just so they could start in all over. And Alastair... at the end of every day... every one... he would come over. And he would make me an offer. To take me off the rack... if I put souls on... if I started the torturing. And every day, I told him to stick it where the sun shines. For 30 years, I told him. But then I couldn't do it anymore, Sammy. I couldn't. And I got off that rack. God help me, I got right off it, and I started ripping them apart. I lost count of how many souls. The -- the things that I did to them.Sam: Dean... Dean, look, you held out for 30 years. That's longer than anyone would have.Dean: How I feel... This... inside me... I wish I couldn't feel anything, Sammy. I wish I couldn't feel a damn thing.

And it’s not until the final scene of 4.11, aka that episode that they intentionally tried to craft as something so awful no network would ever air it again, like, deliberately scraping the bottom of the barrel to see how bad an episode they could get away with making, including all the shock value and zero redemptive quality, that we learn the absolute horror of Dean’s experience. Not only did he torture, but he liked it, and he can never forgive himself for that.

DEAN: You know, I felt for those sons of bitches back there. Lifelong torture turns you into something like that.SAM: You were in hell, Dean. Look, maybe you did what you did there, but you're not them. They were barely human.DEAN: Yeah, you're right. I wasn't like them. I was worse. They were animals, Sam, defending territory. Me? I did it for the sheer pleasure.SAM: What?DEAN: I enjoyed it, Sam. They took me off the rack, and I tortured souls, and I liked it. All those years, all that pain. Finally getting to deal some out yourself. I didn't care who they put in front of me. Because that pain I felt, it just slipped away. No matter how many people I save, I can't change that. I can't fill this hole. Not ever.

And it can’t possibly get worse than that. He’d essentially described what it feels like to become a demon, and it seems he was well along in the process when he was finally pulled from Hell and restored to his body with all the demon smoke scrubbed off his soul. Or else it wouldn’t trouble him to live with this memory of what he became there.

Note also that this is the turning point where Sam begins to buy into Ruby’s claims that Dean is “weak,” and too weak to really follow through with the hunt for Lilith. And Sam returns in the very next episode to start drinking Ruby’s blood and practicing his demon magic again. He believes that Dean “broke” permanently, and no longer trusts his ability. He begins to see Dean as “fragile.”

Which is why he goes running to Dean’s rescue in 4.16. Cas is no longer “in charge,” because he’d grown too sympathetic to the humans in his charge (literally Dean specifically, and Uriel was now running the show. And Uriel WANTED Dean “broken.” He wanted Dean damaged enough to be subservient to Heaven’s will.

Everything that happened in that episode (thanks, Edlund) is critical for understanding Dean and Cas. Cas begins to understand Dean on a truly human level:

DEAN: You ask me to open that door and walk through it, you will not like what walks back out.CASTIEL: For what it's worth, I would give anything not to have you do this.

But he does it anyway. Meanwhile Cas begins to learn that something is truly rotten in the state of Heaven, that their orders aren’t all coming for reliable sources and that some angels have defected to Lucifer’s side in this. Dean learns the horrific truth that his “failure” in Hell was more than a moral or personal failing, but was literally the first key in starting the apocalypse. But after going through this fresh hell together, he and Cas are finally on the same side in this... on the side of Humanity over the squabbles of Heaven and Hell.

Sidebar to note that in the very next episode, Zachariah had to step in with a false reality to motivate Dean into even wanting to continue the fight... even if Zachariah’s machinations tended to go sideways on him...  but this is still important to note for Dean’s next run-in with torture, because it was yet another run-in with Zachariah and a manipulative vision of a horrific future where Dean apparently DIDN’T comply with Heaven’s wishes where he discovered his future-self was casually engaging in torture again.

In 5.04, Dean is disgusted with his “future self” that he seemed to rely heavily on his skill as a torturer. He called it classy. And look how well all that turned out for him... >.>

Over the years, Dean’s had multiple other run-ins with torture-- either performing it himself or his observations about others engaging in it. I’m just gonna make a list here for reference purposes, because I think a pattern emerges:

6.03: Dean is HIGHLY judgmental of Castiel’s treatment of Aaron Birch, a CHILD who Cas “can’t care about” because he’s at war... Dean’s reaction is expected, but it’s also used to demonstrate Sam’s LACK of a reaction. We’re supposed to be suspicious of why Sam would just... stand there and watch this happen, and we’re supposed to be very concerned for Sam because he doesn’t become upset the way Dean does.

6.07: Dean is HIGHLY judgmental of Sam (especially now that he knows Sam has no soul) when he learns what Samuel is doing with the Alphas he captures-- that he’s torturing them for information, but Sam doesn’t know what information.

6.10: This one’s full of torture on all sides >.> Dean is tied up and threatened with torture by Meg, Meg is eventually captured and tortured, but Dean kills Christian-possessed-by-a-demon. Dean then turns around and traps Crowley, and threatens him with Meg torturing him... not Dean himself doing the torture, but he’s tired of being on Crowley’s payroll trying to earn back Sam’s soul, and he seems less fussy about torturing demons than people, but still not doing it himself.

6.19: we see, and Bobby sees, Cas torture one of the people Eve had turned into a Jefferson Starship, for information on Eve’s location. I highly doubt that Bobby actually shared that fact with Dean, because he seemed downright horrified enough. And the pain of 6.20 is gonna hit Dean like a ton of bricks, so I like to think he didn’t know about Cas’s casual torture here.

6.21: But as horrific as everything in 6.20 was, it drove Dean to this point of bleak despair, learning of Cas’s betrayal that goes back more than a year, with the final straw being Lisa and Ben’s kidnapping. Dean... breaks. He grimly picks up his torture implements and tries to find where Lisa and Ben are being held by trapping and torturing demons. He’s so distraught he nearly gets himself killed, but Cas arrives just in time to save him. Meanwhile Sam resorts to a different tactic-- summoning Balthazar and asking him for help. Cas finds out that Balthazar “betrayed” him to the Winchesters, and kills him. It’s... a terrible state of affairs all around.

7.06: With a captured Leviathan, it’s Bobby who sets about systematically-- well not torturing per se, but trying to figure out what might even hurt or kill a leviathan. It’s effectively the same as torture, though, and thank heck Dean isn’t the one carrying it out. Enter: the season of throwing cleaning products at bad things.

7.15: Dean is tied up and tortured again, this time by someone he’d tied up and tortured back during the apocalypse, someone who’d been possessed by a demon they needed information from, and yet someone who claimed to want to help and actually consented to the torture if it got the demon to talk... but it was all lies, and now the guy wanted “his demon” back.

Then there was Purgatory, where everything was “pure.” It was 24/7 WHERE’S THE ANGEL, and interrogating everything he could catch and killing everything else. It was about finding Cas and surviving everything else. And it’s fucking scary. When he gets back, he’s shaken by his experiences there, but he’s also finally got a different context to associate with his abilities as a torturer. Something “safer” to pin those associations on at any rate rather than pointless gleeful torture for torture’s sake.

8.02: We see Dean resort, via flashback to his torturing a monster in Purgatory, to a similar but slightly more restrained technique (slamming a witness against a wall, choking him, and holding a knife to his neck) to get information back in the real world. He doesn’t go through with physical harm, but heck... that was torture.

8.07: But then Cas miraculously comes back. Dean’s wary, but it’s not Dean doing the torturing in this episode. It’s Crowley, torturing Kevin. Well, Dean does threaten a demon that Linda captured into revealing Crowley’s location, and then kills the demon when they get the information. >.>

8.10: Again, it’s Crowley doing the torturing, of Samandriel. It also becomes clear that Cas is suffering the aftereffects of some similar form of torture inflicted on him by Naomi, and his actions bear this out when he’s ordered to kill amandriel. It seems that Dean is put off again by torture, concerned for Cas, but refuses to even listen to information Crowley’s minion tried to share before killing him outright (whoopsie... that could’ve saved some trouble in 8.17...)

8.15: Dean is tortured by a witch (and Sam is, too), and they’re forced to relive hell-related memories. Not fun...

8.17: Dean describes Cas’s interrogation technique as “zero dark thirty,” and is rather horrified. He’s beaten and nearly killed by Cas before he breaks through... Cas heals him, and he finally learns that Cas has been controlled by Naomi this entire time, but then Cas flees, now being controlled by the Angel Tablet itself, with his only mission to protect that tablet at all costs.

I think it’s fair to say that Dean, by this point, has some fairly complicated associations with torture.

8.21: Cas is tortured by Crowley, and the Angel Tablet is stolen from him, but he escapes. 

8.22: Basically one long, slow torture by Crowley, killing people they’ve saved until they agree to his demands to turn over the Demon Tablet.

9.02: Sam and Dean have to save other hunters from being tortured by Abaddon. They were a trap designed to capture the Winchesters, but Gadreel-in-Sam was not something they’d been expecting...

9.03: Yeah, April tortures Cas, but Sam and Dean also capture a “rogue reaper” and torture him for information on Cas’s location. Dean had no difficulty cutting into a reaper who had been dispatched to capture and torture Cas for info...

9.09: Cas is captured and tortured by an angel faction, but managed to steal another angel’s grace and save himself.

And then in 9.11, Dean takes on the Mark of Cain, and is affected by it for the next season and a half... wherein he wrestles with the “darkness” in him, and then whoopsie, finds out that a lot of that darkness in him was The Darkness and not him at all...

Which period covers one of your original episodes you’d asked about: 10.21.

This was Dean’s final descent into the darkness of the Mark of Cain. I mean, even back in 10.14, there was a lot of references to what he was asked to do back in 4.16, and the same sort of vibe, with the twist that Dean KNOWS he needs to do this, and that he’s literally the only person in the world who can. So instead of grim acceptance and resignation, he basically psychs himself up for killing Cain, puts a plan in place, and does what needs to be done.

In 10.14, it’s no longer, “if I go in there, you won’t like what comes out,” but “I need to go in there, regardless of what comes out.”

So even if this isn’t a torture situation, it’s a moment for Dean to confront that similar moment (and loads of others like it) from his past.

10.21 I take with several grains of salt, because first of all it’s a Bucklemming episode, and they’re infamous for a gratuitous use of torture, sexualized violence, and general skeeviness. But also, this is Dean succumbing to the Mark of Cain/The Darkness. He does the torturing because he’s pragmatic. He’s good at it, and he’s also already “tainted” by it in ways that Sam isn’t (or at least not to this degree... Sam had his own run with darkness at the beginning of s10 when he was torturing demons for information on Dean, not to mention his treatment of Rowena in the run up to the end of s10, which absolutely also counts as torture).

10.22: Dean gives into the darkness, and while it’s not presented as torture, he’s an asshole who torments the parents of a kidnapped girl, slaughters his way through the entire Styne family, and nearly kills Cas before walking out.

But then the MoC is gone, and Dean’s himself again for the first time in a year and a half.

Through s11, Dean is more often the witness to torture (Cas under the Attack Dog Spell, the various things the Darkness perpetuates such as the Zompires, and the werewolf victims in 11.17) or the victim of torture (by the naczer... nachez... the ghoulpires in 11.04, by the demon in 11.15) than the perpetrator.

The BMoL and Lucifer were behind most of the torturing in s12, forcing Dean to refresh his perspective on those morally grey areas.

I think another important episode you missed was 13.07, where they capture and confront Ketch, who’d been torturing and killing witches for information on Rowena’s whereabouts. Dean sees through Ketch’s lies from the start, and has no problem torturing Ketch. (again, this is Bucklemming, so have your serving of salt) But Dean knows who and what Ketch is, and that goes a long way, I think, to making it easier for him to dole out torture in this case.

13.14: Donatello has been corrupted by the demon tablet and attacks Sam. Dean attempts to interrogate him, but Donatello is too powerful and nearly suffocates him with magic. Cas falls on his sword, carrying out a horrific torture of stripping Donatello’s memories from him, leaving him brain dead, because Dean and Sam had not wanted to kill Donatello, despite that essentially being the only way to stop him. And it tortured Cas as much as it tortured Donatello, as we saw the results of that particular ability of Castiel’s demonstrated by the broken and tormented version of him in the alternate universe in 13.22.

And while it’s also Bucklemming, I will give credit to 13.22 for demonstrating the parallel between the AU!Castiel version of torture, and the cooperative version that Dean and Cas carried out together. AU!Castiel was reprogrammed to the point of breaking under the weight of the horrors he’d perpetrated, and his only purpose, which he seemed to take pleasure in, was this specific form of torture for information, stripping the memories from his victims until nothing was left.

We had this particular horror set up both with Donatello, but also a season earlier in 12.11 when Dean’s memories were disappearing one by one, until nothing would’ve been left of him. He’s got a very personal association with that particular form of torture.

And in full disclosure here, this is one of my personal biggest fears. I do not like amnesia as a trope, I do not like reading it, I avoid stuff based around loss of identity, because it’s triggering and nothankyou I do not need a psychotic break today. So... suffice it to say, the lack of my going into explicit detail here is a method of self-preservation, and I thank y’all for not posing more direct questions about it. I will not answer them.

But Dean and Cas working together, getting information from someone who’d betrayed all of humanity in giving information to the angels, and yet STILL only taking that ONE bit of information before stopping the torture... I mean they were trying not only to save Charlie and Ketch’s lives, but trying to rescue them before the angels tortured them into giving up everything about the human resistance, putting the rest of humanity in jeopardy.

This was about more than just a horrific act of torture, but about the stark contrast between both the method and the cooperation between Cas and Dean, the trust, and who they are as people compared to what they so easily could’ve become.

Dean so very easily could’ve become what Ketch was in 12.21, and Cas could so very easily have become what AU!Castiel became, BECAUSE of torture inflicted on them, and torture they’d doled out themselves, but that’s not who they are, and it doesn’t define them.

So yeah, I guess that’s the evolution of Dean as a torturer. 

#supernatural #torture #oh DEAN #castiel winchester #sam fucking winchester #sorry this got so long and ate up the rest of my night #and possibly every last brain cell I possessed >.> #i know it's a kind of grim read but there's an evolution going on here #but yeah its just 3200 words about torture #have fun with that >.> #Anonymous