Red Hood Characterization
This is really long so I'm putting a cut here, I've been thinking about Jason Todd's character motivations and the question of whether or not his actions are based in a Moral Code (I don't think so, not to say he's without any morality) and I talk about that in more depth here.
I saw someone say on here that Titans: Beast World: Gotham City was some of the best Jason Todd internal writing they'd seen in a while, and I've been a Red Hood fan for 8 years or so now? pretty much since I read comics for the first time, so I went and checked out and I thought it was good! The way the person I saw talking about it as if it was rare and unusual made me wonder though, because as well-written as it was, there wasn't really anything in it that went against the way I conceptualize Jason?
This kinda plays into a larger question I've been thinking about for a while with Jason though, which is that, do people think that the killing is part of a fundamental worldview that motivates him a la batman, and that worldview is the reason he does the things he does?? Because 8 years ago i was a middle schooler engaging with fiction on the level that a middle schooler does, so I simply did not put much thought into it beyond "poor guy :(" but ever since I actually started trying to understand consistent characterization, I don't really see Jason as someone who's motivated by a moral code in his actions the way batman or superman is!
tbh my personal read is that he's a very socially-motivated guy, his actions from resurrection to his Joker-Batman ultimatum in utrh always seemed to me like every choice made leading up to his identity reveal was either a. to give him the leverage and skill necessary to pull off his identity reveal successfully, or b. to twist the knife that little bit more when he does let Bruce find out who he is. Like iirc there's a Judd Winick tweet like "yeah tldr he chose Red Hood as his identity because it's the lowest blow he could think of." And I think that's awesome, I think character motivations rooted so deeply in character's relationships and emotions are really fun to read! I also think it's where the stagnation/flatness of his character comes from in certain comics, because if his main motivation is one event in one relationship that passes, and he is not particularly attached to anything in his life or the world by the time that comes to pass, it's a little harder to come up with a direction to go with the character after that, because there isn't much of a direction that aligns with something the character would reasonably want? But I do think solving this by saying "all of the morally-off emotionally driven cruelty he did on his way to spite Batman was actually reflective of his own version of Batman's stance that's exactly the same except he thinks it's GOOD to kill people" isn't ideal. To be fully honest, it seems to me like he never particularly cared one way or the other about killing people to "clean Gotham of crime," he just did everything he could to get the power necessary to pull off his personal plans, and took out any particularly heinous people he encountered along the way (like in Lost Days.) Not to say I think the fact he killed people keeps him up at night anymore than everything else in his life events, I just never really thought he was out there wholeheartedly kneecapping some dude selling weed or random guy robbing a tv store for justice.
Looping wayyy back to my question, Is this (^) contradictory to the way he's written/the overall average perception of the character? Because like I enjoyed his writing in Beast World i have zero issue with anything there, I just didn't believe it would be a hot take, like yeah, that is Jason. It's been a while since I've read utrh and lost days, but I don't think my takeaway directly contradicts either of those too bad iirc. Idk all this to say I think Jason killing and being alright with killing is an obvious and objective fact, but i guess i've always seen it as more of a practical tactic than a moral belief, and I think taking the actions made during the lowest points of a character's life where he is obsessively focused on this ONEEEE thing and trying to apply it as a Motivating Stance to everything he's done after that, doesn't really follow logically for me.
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dany and rhaenyra really couldn't be more different considering dany grew up in abject poverty and rhaenyra was constantly shielded by her status and name. for dany, her name was a death sentence, so they exist in totally different frameworks of what being a “targaryen” even means. it’s this vast difference in upbringing that informs how they rule as well with daenerys giving a lot of attention to how her actions/rule affect the oppressed while rhaenyra doesn’t particularly care about the common people at all!
I'm gonna do what we do at work which is start this out with a lil ground rules corporate talk thing: We assume positive intent as a starting place. I'm taking this in good faith and I hope if anon sees this, they take it the same.
So the first point - that because dany grows up in poverty due to being a targaryen and rhaenyra grows up in privilege due to being a targaryen, that means they are too different and thus can't be compared. Firstly, I think it's just a bit silly when people say stuff like this. Sansa's sexual abuse and isolation at KL isn't somehow less traumatizing simply because she had access to food (food she frequently doesn't eat, because she's traumatized over all the sexual abuse!) nor is Arya's physical abuse in the Riverlands somehow less purely because she had a handful of friends. Catelyn having a husband that loves and respects her doesn't mean that there are not similarities in her raging against the system that has turned on her with Cersei's own rage against the system. There need not be a one to one similarity in order for us to find commonalities in themes and I think this constant "you can't compare those two" just stinks of ~oppression olympics~ but oppression just doesn't work like a checklist and if you experience the required threshold of terror, you "get" to call yourself oppressed in some way.
Moving on, the thing is, both of them experience the emotional and sexual incestuous grooming from an older relative that goes with being a Targaryen:
He pushed back her shoulders with his hands. “Let them see that you have a woman’s shape now.” His fingers brushed lightly over her budding breasts and tightened on a nipple. “You will not fail me tonight. If you do, it will go hard for you. You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?” His fingers twisted her, the pinch cruelly hard through the rough fabric of her tunic. “Do you?” he repeated.
Daemon spent long hours in her company, enthralling her with tales of his journeys and battles. He gave her pearls and silks and books and a jade tiara said once to have belonged to the Empress of Leng, read poems to her, dined with her, hawked with her, sailed with her, entertained her by making mock of the greens at court, the “lickspittles” fawning over Queen Alicent and her children. He praised her beauty, declaring her to be the fairest maid in all the Seven Kingdoms. Uncle and niece began to fly together almost daily, racing Syrax against Caraxes to Dragonstone and back...Eustace, the less salacious of the two, writes that Prince Daemon seduced his niece the princess and claimed her maidenhood...The whole tale soon came out, in no small part thanks to Mushroom himself. King Viserys at first refused to believe a word of it, until Prince Daemon confirmed the tale was true. “Give the girl to me to wife,” he purportedly told his brother. “Who else would take her now?”
both of them also experience a much older sworn sword preying on their youth and fondness for him-
"What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?"
Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." He bowed low. "Sleep well, my queen."
Dany shivered, and pulled the lionskin tight about her. She looked like me. It explained much that she had not truly understood. He wants me, she realized. He loves me as he loved her, not as a knight loves his queen but as a man loves a woman. She tried to imagine herself in Ser Jorah's arms, kissing him, pleasuring him, letting him enter her. It was no good. When she closed her eyes, his face kept changing into Drogo's.
Though many lords and knights sought her favor, the princess had eyes only for Ser Criston Cole, the young champion of the Kingsguard and her constant companion. “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” Queen Alicent asked one day at court...
However it happened, whether the princess scorned the knight or he her, from that day forward the love that Ser Criston Cole had formerly borne for Rhaenyra Targaryen turned to loathing and disdain, and the man who had hitherto been the princess’s constant companion and champion became the most bitter of her foes.
they are both forced into marriages they don’t want to be in-
Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her. “I don’t want to be his queen,” she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. “Please, please, Viserys, I don’t want to, I want to go home.”
"No." On her terrace, in her bathing pool, the little fish would nibble at her legs as she soaked. Even they kissed with more fervor than Hizdahr zo Loraq. "I do not love you."
And though His Grace reasoned with her, pleaded with her, shouted at her, and called her an ungrateful daughter, no words of his could budge her…until the king brought up the question of succession. What a king had done, a king could undo, Viserys pointed out. She would wed as he commanded, or he would make her half-brother Aegon his heir in place of her. At this the princess’s will gave way. Septon Eustace says she fell at her father’s knees and begged for his forgiveness, Mushroom that she spat in her father’s face, but both agree that in the end she consented to be married.
and start conflating violence, power, and safety in their minds-
The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize Ser Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon, Syrax.
“He would make a monster of me,” she whispered, “a butcher queen.” But then she thought of Drogon far away, and the dragons in the pit. There is blood on my hands too, and on my heart. We are not so different, Daario and I. We are both monsters.
you say for dany her name is a death sentence, but for rhaenyra, being a targaryen is also a death sentence! not to "they very much killed jesus" you here, but they very much kill rhaenyra! if rhaenyra remains a “good targaryen” she is acutely aware she will lose everything, and this is something dany is aware of as well, it's why she reacts so badly to daario's "queens have no purpose but to warm some king’s bed and pop out sons for him" comment about her marriage to Hizdahr. rhaenyra's mother and both grandmothers die before they’re 25 of childbirth. rhaenyra grew up in the same court gael did, that saera did, that viserra did, likely knew the truth of what happened to each girl, and as a woman who is concealing her bastards, all of that has to terrify her. so she stays the “bad woman” the tyrant, the whore, the visenya, in an attempt to protect her children and that gets her killed. being a targaryen has devastating effects on both of them.
as for the differences in how they rule - i’m gonna be honest and say does it matter how they feel if the result is the same?
when they first come into true power, both women are more concerned with getting revenge than they are for settling the unrest-
“How many?” one old woman had asked, sobbing. “How many must you have to spare us?”
“One hundred and sixty-three,” she answered. She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon.
...whilst at the Red Keep Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen set about rewarding her friends and inflicting savage punishments on those who had served her half-brother...Henceforth, Celtigar decreed, traitors, rebels, and murderers would be beheaded within the Dragonpit, and their corpses fed to the queen’s dragons. All were welcome to bear witness to the fate that awaited evil men, but each must pay three pennies at the gates to be admitted.
both of them compromise on a stance that is integral to their whole platform-
Dany was shocked. “They want to be slaves?”
“The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor.”
“I see.” Perhaps it was not so shocking, if these tales of Astapor were true. Dany thought a moment. “Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. Or woman.” She raised a hand. “But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife.”
“In Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price, each time a slave changed hands,” Missandei told her.
“We’ll do the same,” Dany decided. Wars were won with gold as much as swords. “A tenth part. In gold or silver coin, or ivory. Meereen has no need of saffron, cloves, or zorse hides.”
But the Queen’s Hand argued against this, for both girls had younger brothers. Rhaenyra’s own claim to the Iron Throne was a special case, the Sea Snake insisted; her father had named her as his heir. Lords Rosby and Stokeworth had done no such thing. Disinheriting their sons in favor of their daughters would overturn centuries of law and precedent, and call into question the rights of scores of other lords throughout Westeros whose own claims might be seen as inferior to those of elder sisters. It was fear of losing the support of such lords, Munkun asserts in True Telling, that led the queen to decide in favor of Lord Corlys rather than Prince Daemon.
both of them act vindictively and violently towards a low born woman in conjunction with stupid behavior from the violent men they’ve been groomed into loving-
Forgive me, sun of my life, she thought. Forgive me for all I have done and all I must do. I paid the price, my star, but it was too high, too high…
“I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur,” she said, “for the lessons you have taught me.”
“You will not hear me scream,” Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing.
“I will,” Dany said, “but it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life.”
In a voice as cold as ice, she commanded Ser Luthor Largent to take twenty gold cloaks to the Dragonpit and arrest Ser Addam Velaryon. “Question him sharply, and we will learn if he is true or false, beyond a doubt.” As to the girl Nettles, “She is a common thing, with the stink of sorcery upon her,” the queen declared. “My prince would ne’er lay with such a low creature. You need only look at her to know she has no drop of dragon’s blood in her. It was with spells that she bound a dragon to her, and she has done the same with my lord husband.”
and I do think there is some similarity in the way that Dany sacks Astapor and it turns into a nightmareish ruin, and Rhaenyra lets KL fall into ruin as well.
you say rhaenyra doesn’t care about the common people but we don’t get her thoughts nor do we get the thoughts of a single person who is willing to tell the truth about her. both of our reliable sources hate her and mushroom is actively concealing things. we know dany cares about the smallfolk because we get her horror over drogon killing a child - only for her to forget that child’s name and decide the cost of her war doesn’t matter so much as taking her throne. this is the exact same moral justification rhaenyra is making - the safety of the people of KL are an acceptable compromise for her own throne.
what both of them want is less about the crown and more about what it represents to them. for dany, it’s home, belonging, love, safety, the simplicity of her life when it was just her, a viserys who had yet to lose his mind, and an aging ser willem darry. for rhaenyra, it’s the exact same - the simplicity of her life before aegon was born & her mother died, the love in her father choosing her over the men around him, the safety of her children. Both of them reach for violence to achieve those ends because they’ve been taught through a life of violence - albeit different sorts of violence - that force is the only way to protect yourself. And since Rhaenyra ultimately fails in her goal, I believe Daenerys will fail as well. Whether she’s smart enough to pull a Nettles and disappear (disappear not spread more violence ~liberating~ places that are not asking for her help or cultural arrogance) or if she, like Rhaenyra, will find that when she’s reached her limit, when she’s finally and truly lost, the door she thought she left open to escape through has been slammed shut behind her-
But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.
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what do you mean liking zelink gives you a cishet radar? If someone wants to think their pairing is cishet without bothering anyone, I don’t see the issue? I just need an explanation.
im going to go into this trying as hard as i can to believe that this ask was in good faith. ok. i am going to try so so so hard to be nice here.
the market is oversaturated with cishet pairings. assuming you are not asking this in bad faith and you consider yourself an ally to lgbt people, you have to at the very least understand that as a baseline. lgbt people of my generation have spent decades of their lives with cishet couples being their ONLY reference for romance in media. any time lgbt people WERE portrayed, they had to be immoral or condemned or somehow had their stories cut short.
the second point i need you to understand is that for lgbt people, we consider our romance and expression to be fundamentally different from yours. this is not an attempt at self-segregation or discrimination against cishet people, this is a tool for survival. at a certain point it became clear that we were never going to be mainstream, and that attempting to conform to mainstream ideas of romance was potentially DANGEROUS for us. lgbt romance that was palatable for cishet people ran the risk of turning violent for us when cishet people STOPPED perceiving us as palatable. this is why we say there's a difference between lgbt media written by cishets and lgbt media written by lgbt people--cishet people aren't ever quite able to pick up on the subtle ways in which we differentiate ourselves and our expression from theirs, but WE are, and media written by people who understand those differences is always going to feel SAFER to us than media that isn't.
this is what i mean when i say 'cishet radar.' being lgbt doesn't stop you from enjoying m/f pairings. being lgbt doesn't necessarily even stop you from being in an m/f relationship yourself. but being lgbt DOES alter the way you EXPERIENCE m/f relationships because of the difference in expression between cishet romance and lgbt romance. when you are lgbt, when you have trained your brain for your whole life to look for those differences as a tool for survival, m/f pairings that you can tell have been written with those differences in mind are always going to feel SAFER to you than pairings that have not.
there is nothing wrong with being cishet. there is nothing wrong with seeing characters as cishet. but it's concerning that your response to lgbt people expressing that they feel safer engaging with content that appeals to them and is written with their communities and their self-expression in mind is to take it as a personal attack. i never said anything was wrong with cishet readings of these characters, but i expressed that i feel safer avoiding content that i can recognize as a cishet reading of this pairing. you decided to take that personally. i think it's worth it to unpack why that is. do you feel uncomfortable when other people, independently from you, suggest that your favorite characters might be gay or trans? why might that be? lgbt readings of m/f pairings are a part of lgbt expression. lgbt expression is not an attack on cishet people. like you said, people are allowed to enjoy their paring their way "without bothering anyone."
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Finally finished Louie's introduction that I started here. All that's left now is Pom's section and then I'll post all three (four?) scenes together as one chapter! If you haven't seen the previous part, I definitely recommend checking it out for context.
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Louie’s in a haze for the rest of the day. He packs, makes his call to his grandma, and picks up a coffee and a pikpik carrot muffin at the coffee shop that got him through high school. He hasn’t had time to stop by in almost a year, now. He leaves a generous tip.
The moments in-between are spotty. He’s not sure if hours or days have passed before he’s back at Hocotate Freight’s headquarters.
“Excuse me,” a tired voice says, snapping him back to the moment. He turns, now-cooled coffee halfway to his mouth, to see a woman standing behind him. She’s short and older than him, though he can’t tell by how much, given how recent the wrinkles and gray hairs must be.
They’ve never met in person, but he’s seen pictures. Even if he’s not good with faces, he knows this is Olimar’s wife.
“You’re Louie, aren’t you?” Unsure of how to respond, he just nods. “I see… I, well… I’m not sure how to say this.” She laughs halfheartedly. “You know, Olimar always talked about how he wanted to invite you for dinner. I can see why! You’re far too skinny for a boy your age!”
He looks down, then back up to her. “That’s what my grandma says too. Mostly because I eat too much.” For some reason he could eat and eat and never gain any weight. It probably had something to do with him being an outbreed. Nana always said full-blooded Hocotations had to be short and stout: short because all their food was either close to or under the ground, and stout to store extra water and nutrients for later. Louie had just gotten the short end of the genetic stick by inheriting traits that made him stand out.
Either way, his joke gets a full peal of laughter out of her. By the time she composes herself she’s out of breath and there are tears in her eyes. After a moment she sighs, wiping the tears from her eyes. “I see why my husband liked working with you,” she muses, wilting a little at the mention of Olimar. “I heard they were sending you to the planet The Transmission originated from. I… I have to be honest… I’m not sure what I want you to find when you get there.”
Louie’s eyes widen. She continues, swallowing down some nervousness before she gets to what’s been stuck in the back of his mind all day. “The speaker in The Transmission wasn’t my husband.”
“I know.”
Her jaw drops. Olimar’s wife looks at him with something like joy and disbelief. “You already know. That… makes this much easier to say, then.” She clears her throat. “As much as I want you to find my husband and bring him home… I don’t want anyone else to get hurt while searching for him. I… I know that he wouldn’t want that either.” She sniffles, dabbing at her face with her sleeve. It’s making Louie want to run away more and more with every passing second. “That’s all I had to say. Please be careful when you’re out there.”
He gives one last nod before turning to leave. He heads straight to his ship from there. He doesn’t see the President or any of his coworkers before he takes off toward the mysterious planet, so Olimar’s wife’s words are all he can think of as he flies toward the stars.
He’s not taking any risks when he gets to that planet.
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mmm somethings been rattling around inside my brain about queerness in xenofiction (warrior cats centric cause that's obviously mostly what people are talking about in my internet circles) and I know around here I am preaching to the choir but w/e. I feel like i may have made this post before but i’ll do it again until i feel like i’ve crafted all of my thoughts correctly
everyone knows there’s always like. some shmuck on twitter or youtube comment sections, complaining about how gay cats just don’t make sense ~realistically~
and the common argument back is always something along the lines of “these cats have complex society and religion and talk to ghosts and sometimes have magic powers, and being gay is where you draw the line? it doesn’t have to be realistic”
and something just rubs me the wrong way about that argument, not that it’s WRONG, it’s not wrong, xenofiction by definition is all super super unrealistic. I think it’s more like, it oversimplifies it. because honestly when I make critiques about the warriors world building not making sense, I don’t tend to like the argument beginning and ending at “well it doesn’t have to be realistic” because no it doesn’t but it’s still supposed to feel believable.
i think i don’t like that the argument seems to imply that gay animal characters are at all on par with other fantasy things like talking to ghosts and having powers or complex religion. I also don’t like it when people who are being fake-supportive can condescendingly say “well the gay couple may be completely absurd and unrealistic but I guess it’s ok because its just a silly fantasy :) ” cause like. Like its not unrealistic tho. i don’t like the implication that it’s uniquely unrealistic, if this was a grounded story with no magic or religion and the cat social groups were more inspired by real feral cats, it would still be illogical for some queer cats not to exist.
I feel like it is a more effective argument to point out that straight cats are just as unrealistic, in fact more unrealistic and silly
“cats lovingly and monogamously married-for-life and raising kids together” is the absurdity it should be compared to, rather then the magic elements. Because then the complainers have to contend with the fact that they aren’t bothered by unrealistic relationships between cat characters, they are just uniquely bothered by gay ones.
I mean...not to get tmi but it seems obvious to me this knee jerk reaction people have to rolling their eyes and scoffing when “gay” and “animal character” are placed in the same sentence is based on their insistence on equating the breeding behavior of animals to the romantic relationships of humans. Y'know, they're assuming that when people talk about romantic couples between anthro characters, that that is the sort of thing they are drawing from. When, certainly when it comes to cats, that is a very very poor equivalent. Cat mating behaviors are not affectionate or long lasting--they actually seem quite stressful, and then the father runs off to find more girls and probably never calls his one-night-stand again.
this is why I am really not fond of “mate” being used at the go-to replacement for husband/wife in xenofiction. Consider just coming up with a brand new word for your animal character’s version of romance! maybe they have types of relationships and words for them that humans don’t even have! but “mate” feels like. an action, nothing more. It doesn’t inherently imply love. frankly I think more people should be anthropomorphizing mates as simply Business Partnerships where the business is in desiring offspring, as opposed to husband/wife.
Just like....ok if you’re going to use the real behavior of animals as at least the loose inspiration for your anthropomorphic character’s behavior, surely pair bonding would be a smoother translation to what we view as a romantic couple?? not mating?? because pair bonded animals are the ones having consistent pleasant interactions, and being physically affectionate, and working together in life, sometimes even raising each others kids together.
And keeping that in mind, frankly you could argue that gay-coded cats should be the norm. (not that I think pair bonded creatures should always be interpreted as a romantic coded relationship, you could interpret some as platonic or familial or simply allies needing to survive. The point is no matter what route you go, you are projecting some human experience onto animals who’s minds and feelings we cannot ever actually understand. So to make it coded as a gay romance is just as reasonable as making it an adopted found-family sort of affection. You can go any route and be the same amount of unrealistic.)
If these losers actually want reasonable cat fiction, no one should have romantic affection for anyone! and if two cats have kittens together, it should be treated more like a short-lived antagonistic business partnership where you part ways immediately after. If you only criticize one type of romance for being “unbelievable and silly because these are CATS for crying out loud 🙄” but you don't feel “distracted” or “taken out of the story” about the other type of romance, then this aint about realism my guy, sounds like you just have some baggage to unpack.
I am beating people over the head with a very big sign that reads “Whether you’re writing about cats or birds or aliens or fantasy people or whatever, you cannot grant any creature the ability to love without all the variety and complexity that **naturally** goes hand in hand with those messy emotions. If the creatures can fall in love at all, then there must exist the possibility for some of them to be queer about it. And if you view queerness as unnatural, then we don’t have a writing disagreement, we have a fundamental moral disagreement about life. And I can’t help you there, that’s your problem! But I refuse to let people benignly hide behind a “simple desire for more realistic-feeling fiction uwu” as a defense!! (gay people are real. It’s true! I checked!!)”
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