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chriscdcase95 · 4 years

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How not to debate Ships and Shipping

I am writing this from personal experience, and from noticing bad cases of Ship Policing going on in the Hazbin Hotel and Star Wars fandom as of late. I figured a bunch of kids got too much computer time from their parents and are in need of education, because this is a more extreme throwback to the shipping wars that occurred in the Twilight and iCarly fanbase from way back when.

Since 2010, I have found myself a little immersed into the practice of shipping. At the start of this decade, I was Team Edward/Team Jacob levels of ship crazy, and here I am now with a new perspective on things.

I've even devolved into multi shipping, but I apply that when it comes to compartmentalizing fanfiction and canon. I have my share of OTP's and NOTP's (although Jemma of Every Witch Way is personally my top NOTP for multiple reasons).

Anyways, welcome to my TedTalk where I will educate you ten to fifteen year old's about how not to debate ships. Take it from an old geezer with ten years of experience, I was there in the middle of ship wars at the start of the decade.

I said in previous posts that ships are a funny thing. They should be small in the grand scheme of things, and fans put them on this great and grand pedestals. Some to the extent where people become downright psychotic bullies about the ships they like or don't like, going as far as to police ships to other fans, and sometimes creators. I think we can agree Ship Policing should be seen as toxic behaviour, right ? Well, no. I'll admit that is a complex issue, even for a multi shipper like me. I brought this up in two Facebook groups I'm in, and the basic consensus is that Ship Policing is toxic behaviour - except when they romanticize domestic violence, rape, pedophilia, etc.

But what is Ship Policing ? Simply put, telling people who they are or are not allowed to ship; bullying and shaming others over their ships; and in the biggest extreme, sending death threats and rape threats to other fans over these pairings. The Jemma fans of Every Witch Way for example, are probably the biggest example of Ship Policing, seeing as they literally got the showrunners to rewrite the show to fit their ships fanfiction AU image. But that's neither here nor there, but the point is, AU's are best left to fanfiction or It's A Wonderful Life plots.

Similarly, the Hazbin Hotel fandom had this (hopefully/mercifully one) really bad apple coming the Chalastor fandom, who went on homophobic speeches and demanding that the showrunners make Chalastor canon over Chaggie because and RadioDust- in their own words - "Gays are gross" and went as far as to send death threats to the creators. Because that will certainly make your ship canon, and not make you and yours look like the Jemma fandom.

A less malicious and more hilariously petty example comes from The Loud House fandom, where Luanny fans tend to get butthurt over fans, fics and art of the Luaggie ship, despite the Luanny already being canon and Luaggie only ever existing in fanworks. It was such a one sided non-issue, that it was the Spec Ops the Line of ship wars.

Also within the Loud House fandom there is an artist who made OC's based off of his ships AU. I'm not into the ship or AU, but I saw him getting death threats not just to himself, but his OC's as well. I may not be fully aware of the situation (like I just said, I don't follow the ship or AU), but even I can call this a toxic and illogical way of thinking.

To make a primary and personal example for this lecture, I am going to bring up the most outlandish ship discussion I was part of the past year. Some time ago, I ended up in a debate regarding Kim Possible ships in a Facebook group I posted on. In it I said I wasn't into non canon but popular ship called Kigo. When I re-watched the series, the Drakgo and Kim x Ron (the latter of which I just realized didn't have a ship name) just kind of grew on, and I felt that there were some problems with Kigo as a romantic relationship.

Now I want to make sure to point out that if you like Kigo, that is 100% okay, it is just in my opinion that it would be problematic. It's my personal opinion that if you apply their canon characterization, you'll run into the same problems Anti Reylos have with Rey and Ben. Anyways, when I said my peace, most of the Kigo's didn't make a big deal about it; they took it in stride; calmly disagreed with me and stated their stance. This is what a proper ship discussion should be. It would have been one of the most stable, non toxic discussions I was a part of. Nothing memorable was supposed to happen.

Then she came along.

Since she isn't internet famous on this site or others as far as I know, I am not going to use real names because I don't want this person to be doxxed, stalked or cyberbullied, but I will us LP as a substitute. She will be our example of what a toxic anti will look like, and our example of how not to debate or discuss a ship. Simply put, if she had the fame, she would be the TrueLoveHeart94 of the Kigo fandom (look up Dumbsville's videos on him YouTube, and you'll get a good idea of what I'm talking about).

One of the first things to use is a simple explanation for your stance. When I was explaining my stance, I explained how I came to my conclusions simply by watching the show, putting some thought into it, and making my own opinion based on what I observed. Like I said these were my opinions, observations, and at no point do I claim it to be some objective fact. At no point to attack Kigo's, at no point did I call them toxic. The most I did was explain why I find it problematic. Like I said, if you like Kigo that is 100% fine and dandy, you'll get not hate or bullying from me.

LP on the other hand, well she just couldn't accept that someone didn't like Kigo. How dare I prefer two canonically heterosexual characters in a canon het ship. How dare I commit the crime of having an unpopular, differing opinion. Even worse how dare I try to explain my reasoning.

It was one of those fan discussions. Now when I thought this was going to be a civil discussion, I asked her just why I was wrong not to ship Kigo. Why is Kim x Ron or Drakgo so toxic ? She didn't really give me a real answer; the closest she got to a coherent response was a borderline Darwinist rant about how "strong women shouldn't date weakling men".

That was what should have made me think "is this discussion worth having ?" (For the record, some of my favourite ship dynamics is with a tough or strong woman with a meek, even nerdish man so the whole "the strong shouldn't be paired up with weaklings" is a non argument to me).

Pretty soon she began breaking the following steps one should take in a debate

. Don't use double standards or Non Sequiturs - First thing you should be aware of in any debate is to actually listen too and answer you're opponents points. The talking points of dodging questions, or ignoring answers - a well as using those same answer to support your points - is an inherently dishonest tactic. If you have a point or counterpoint, it'll do you good not to use dishonest tactics to try to "win" your debates.

One of the things I had issues with regarding Kigo was one of the same points (if not the main) LP raised for the ship. As I said above one of my problems was some of the same talking points Anti-Reylo's raise. I pointed out how Kim and Shego have tried to kill each other a few times in the series, something LP both acknowledges and ignores in the exact same sentence. LP's own talking points for their relationship was their romantic/sexual chemistry could be seen in their fight scenes. This is an example of a Double Standard.

When I pointed out the abusive implications of this thought process, rather than directly answer this, LP went on to equate my point as accusing professional wrestlers of being abusive to their wives. This is an example of a Non Sequitur. She doesn't answer or address my points, and my points don't count unless they support her argument.

Double standards and Non Sequiturs in general should be avoided in any kind of debate. If a talking point is raised against you, it has to be addressed. Not doing so is a less dignified admission that you don't really have an answer.

Another example of this can be seen in the Team Edward vs Team Jacob noise; a Team Jacob fan could say that Edward was a stalker towards Bella, ignoring and dodging a counter argument of Jacob's "Nice Guy" attitude towards Bella and how he forcibly kissed her (also there's Charlie's non reaction to this, but that's beside the point). The same goes vice versa; both are problematic.

Use canon evidence to make your point - Admittedly this one can only really apply if you are making a case for a non canon ship, or pointing out problems with a canon one.

Now the reason LP was so impassioned about her arguments was her insistence that Kigo had to be canon. As she said, it wasn't enough that it was popular enough as a fanfic ship; it wasn't enough that I had to ship it; but she was trying to make the case that Kigo had to be the canon ship of the show, and she was trying to make the case for it.

TrueLoveHeart94 thought process aside, if you want to make a canon case for your ship, it'll do you good in ship debates is use canon evidence. What I am saying is there are some ships that work in canon, others in fanfiction. If you were to make a point to prove your ship would work in canon, use canon examples.

For example, I mentioned above someone in the Hazbin Hotel fandom tried to make the canon case for Chalastor....by citing their personal homophobia and making death threats towards Ashley and Vivziepop.

In the debate, I used the show to explain why I wasn't into Kigo (as well as my above mentioned reasons) and I mentioned how I didn't see much in canon to see a romantic relationship. Now I want to be clear, I saw Kigo as a fanfic based ship and I am aware that Drakken and Shego seemingly reform at the end of the series, but with canon at best I see Kim and Shego as having a sisterly relationship. I also want to be clear I am not a canon purist. There are many non canon couples I like, I am a multi-shipper after all and I can compartmentalize fanfic couples with my canon OTP's. And I am a supporter of AU's. Hell, there's even Hero x Villain ships I am into...it's just Kigo isn't one of them. I am not an anti; I don't hate the Kigo relationship or it's fan; I just wasn't into it and the canon ships just grew on me when I revisited the series.

When I asked for canon examples that Kigo could work as a romantic pairing, LP's response was to cite fanfiction and fan art as proof.

Let me repeat; I asked for canon examples to prove her point, and why my stance was wrong....and she used fanworks.

I don't think I need to explain the problem here.

To my knowledge, not even TrueLoveHeart94 uses fanfiction/art to make a canon case for Sonamy. This is the kind of straw grasping I can see Chris Weston Chandler making. I don't even know what else to say about this. I still get slacked thinking about it.

Anyway, when I said the fanfiction isn't considered canon, LP responded thusly...

Avoid Ad Hominems and slander

Okay, this one should be a no brainer; when you are in a debate of any kind, there is one thing you can do that means you immediately loose your debate. Your points no longer become valid, you surrender any argument you may have, and you prove that you are not worth debating.

Ad Hominems, personal insults, death/rape threats, racist/homophobic ranting, slander, etc.

Let's just say the nicer things LP said was calling me retarded. I am not sure if that was a coincidence since I mentioned that I was autistic earlier in the discussion.

Keep in mind, all I did throughout the discussion was answer LP's questions, and explain my stance. I even said that it was just my opinion and at no point did I claim it to be objective fact. At no point did I accuse LP of being racist; a nazi; biphobe; rape/abuse apologist; self-misogynist or misandrist; I never called her abelist (despite some of what she said above).

As for what she said to me ? Like I said, being called a retard was one of the more tame things she said of me. She kept sending me notifications that included angry, barely coherent rants, TrIgGeReD tExT, the whole nine yards.

See, this isn't how you win debates, this is how you rage quit these debates. To give you an idea of the way she was saying, I refer you to Dumbsville's videos on TrueLoveHeart94; the resemblance between LP and TrueLoveHearts comments are rather uncanny. Now for context, the discussion started approx. 6:00 to 7:00 PM...these notifications have been ongoing well into 1:30 AM.

And all this because I said I wasn't into a ship she liked.

That is when I put a stop to the discussion. I blocked LP and deleted the discussion just to be safe.

Conclusion

So as we start the new decade, I look back at how much I've seen making mountains out of molehills (shipping wars). I have seen, heard, even been part of these ship wars and discussions since 2010. My disastrous "debate" with LP is a recent example.

I do believe there is nothing wrong with discussing ships, but it has ben ten years and ship wars are just as bad as they were when Twilight hit the scene. I have heard stories of people getting threats of rape, doxing, threats to people families; people pushing others to self harm for liking "the wrong ship".

I wrote this to educate the young and impressionable in the 2020's not to repeat the same mistakes both I and others made in 2010. The fact the LP incidents is from 2019 and the incident with the Hazbin Hotel fandom are from December 2019 alone, shows that you good folks need some learning to do. Something that should be considered fun shouldn't be something worth hurting yourself or others over.

If you ever find yourself in such a debate, always remember to actually address points raised against you; don't dodge questions; if asked to provide canon reasons for why something should be a canonical OTP or NOTP, please remember that fanfiction are not considered canon examples; if you ever find yourself throwing nasty accusations, insults or threats to people's safety in a debate, then that means you lost the debate.

Hopefully you can follow this advise, and help make shipping fun again, and not something to start World War III over.

This had been my Ted Talk.

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traincat · 6 years

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I think I Kno the answer but I like the way you explain things so; would you ever write superfamily?

This is the sort of stone cold ‘no’ where it’s literally one of the only things I say I will not write on signup sheets. You’d have to pay me to write it. Substantially. If there’s one Marvel fandom-specific trope I hate above all others, it’s this one. I ‘flames on the side of my face’ gif loathe it. And because you played to my ego here, anonymous, I’ll explain why it bothers me so much. (Joking aside, I do genuinely appreciate that people want to hear my thoughts on things! Thank you! I’m sorry for how seethingly bitter I’m about to be, but anon, I suspect you knew what you’d be getting when you asked this!)

Frothing hatred, a discussion about the integrity of the character of Peter Parker, and The Importance of May Parker – all beneath your friendly neighborhood cut.

Superfamily in this instance refers to a specific fic trope in Marvel fandom where a pair of superheroes, traditionally Captain America and Iron Man (the superhusbands, hence the superfamily) although I’ve seen other pairings especially as of late, are written as the fathers of Peter “Spider-Man” Parker – usually adopted, sometimes biological, but ultimately legally.

In general I don’t really enjoy this kind of fic where two characters who aren’t related (by blood or otherwise) are re-envisioned as relatives. It’s not that I think it’s inherently a bad concept, but what I would hypothetically want out of it – an exploration of how these characters change as a result of being related in this version – is almost never what it actually is, which is that Characters A and B are the author’s OTP, and the author wants to give them a child, and Character C, who is off over there minding their own business probably with their own supporting cast, is right there.

(While trying to come up with comparative combinations on a tangent I ultimately dropped, I did think “Maria Hill and Natasha Romanoff are the parents of Daisy Johnson, costarring Nick Fury as the mysterious uncle” and apparently there are versions of this I would read. Make superspyfamily the next big thing.)

There’s a lot of other things I don’t like about the trope: the diminishing and infantilization of Peter Parker, a ~30yo man in the comics with his own complicated web of connections and relationships – including, if we wanted to go here, a surrogate father figure in Joe “Robbie” Robertson. The twisting of Peter’s personality in order to make his a Good Earnest Kid, his Grand Canyon-wide independent streak and his anti-authoritarian nature stripped away in favor of making him beholden to two characters who are, you know, not his parents. Two characters who aren’t even, striking a stint in the ice where Steve Rogers is concerned, that much older than him in 616. The fact that, over the years, Iron Man and Spider-Man have clashed several times, often aggressively on Peter’s side of things.

(This post isn’t meant to be a criticism of Tony Stark – even if I was interested in taking that angle when discussing this trope, which I’m not, I frankly haven’t read enough Iron Man comics to offer a valid criticism – but rather a statement that Peter Parker is an aggressive character by nature, and that sometimes two characters with the best of intentions can have damaging interactions with each other. That’s the beauty of having a canon with 80 million different characters – every possible dynamic exists. And that’s why there’s several canon instances of Peter attacking Tony in my Spider-Man refs folder. Listen, I like when he punches people, okay.) The invention of a totally fake dynamic that has become so widespread and latched on on a fanon level to the point where it was shoehorned into the latest Spider-Man movie adaptation to the detriment of Spider-Man’s actual supporting cast. The fact that when I read Spider-Man fic, I want to be reading about Spider-Man, not someone’s Peter Parker shaped OC. And maybe most importantly: the erasure of May Parker. Without May Parker, there is no Spider-Man, not as we know him.

I’ve spoken before about the importance and gravity of Ben Parker’s death and how without knowing the exact circumstances, I find it difficult to know what form Peter’s actions will take. (The differences in his crime fighting methodology 616 vs Marvel Noir, for instance.) But while Ben Parker’s death made Spider-Man, the vigilante, I think it’s May Parker who makes him a hero, every day.

And, my line on her to Peter is that he got his powers from the spider but he got his strength from May. Because that backbone is what made him who and what he is today. The choices that he makes now come of her having raised him a certain way. – J Michael Straczynski (x)

Look, I think there’s a simplicity to Superfamily that contributes to its overwhelming, infuriating, kudzu-like popularity: Spider-Man is one of the biggest superhero properties on the planet. He’s often, however incorrectly I would personally suggest this is, depicted as a kid. He is, as we all know, an orphan – he has no parents, and he lives with his aunt and uncle, and then – robber, bang, power, responsibility – only with his aunt. And I think sometimes when people hear “orphan” and “aunt” they kind of feel a distance – a disconnect. Or maybe it’s an age thing – the idea that May’s somehow too old to be his parent, so she’s discounted. Maybe it’s just because she’s not a superhero, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s entirely a coincidence that early Marvel is populated with non-traditional family models – the Fantastic Four, for example, are not a team but a family – when these stories were created by Jewish people living in a heavily Jewish area in the shadow of WWII. In the face of decimation, you come together however you can. Orphaned Peter Parker and his aunt, his father’s brother’s wife, alone together. But May Parker’s a lot more than just that.

In Amazing Spider-Man #33, Peter finds himself hopelessly trapped under rubble while Aunt May’s life hangs in the balance – if he cannot free himself, it’s not only his life but hers that’s forfeit, and through his love from her he finds the strength to literally move mountains. (Speaking of removing May from the picture in favor of Iron Man, I’ll never forgive Spider-Man: Homecoming for recreating this scene so that Peter derives his strength from him and not from, you know, the woman who raised him and who he loves more than his own life, in favor of the inherently more marketable Iron Man brand.)

A lot of times in Superfamily fic, they just kill May off. Okay, fine, whatever. I might hate it (I hate it a lot) but like, alright! Fine! If you gotta go here! May’s often been in delicate health, especially in older comics, and if an author needs to take her out of the picture, her literally being dead is basically the only in character reason she wouldn’t be there for Peter if he needs her. I might personally have a grudge against about it, but hey, as we’ve established, I have a grudge against the whole trope. Lately though, and I suspect because of the advent of Homecoming’s Hot Somewhat Younger May – I’d like to suggest that 616 May is not as old as one might think looking at her first appearances and that, as the sliding timescale moves along, we have to address the fact that people both live longer and look younger today than was expected in the 1960s –, I’ve been seeing a different trend. (Yes, I’ve been known to hateread, I’ll admit it. How else would I know how much I hate it! Also it keeps ending up in the JohnnyPeter tag and I make poor choices re: deriving enjoyment from my anger over fanfic of all things.) Lately, more and more, I’ve been seeing fics where Tony adopts Peter from May – as in, she signs the forms giving up her child, because obviously he loves him so much more. Fics where May is just the cover story so Peter Stark can escape media attention – so great, now she’s an employee. And at least one tweet about how great it would be to see a fic where Peter comes out to May and she throws him out in a homophobic fit but wait! The Avengers can rescue him! So now she’s demonized for the Drama. Gag me. (Not that I think it should matter at all for the sake of this argument, but we have May’s actual word in Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38 on what would happen if Peter came out as gay to her, and that it’s she’d love and support him no matter what.) And listen, like, part of me is like let it go! The majority of this content is written by younger fans just figuring out what they want to write, dipping their toes into the swampy waters that is Marvel canon! But the problem is, this perpetuates. It gets popular, and people form their opinions based on headcanons and not on canon and it becomes a vicious cycle, and suddenly Peter’s the Kid Avenger like, ACTUALLY, and May’s role in the story has been demoted to Roommate With a Car at best. Just there until better, cooler parental figures show up at the doorstep with adoption papers.

Because, listen, May Parker is Peter’s mother.

One thing I find fascinating about Peter Parker in 616 is how he relies on and draws strength from other people’s goodness, and none more so than May. It’s her well of inner strength and kindness that enable him to be kind of superhero that he is.

Without May Parker, Peter Parker would be a totally different character – and I don’t want a different character. I like this one. (For a canon story about how Peter would be different without May, check out Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #8.)

Like I said above, the great thing about having 80 million characters is that those characters get to be different things, and as superheroes they get to protect different things. Iron Man is a futurist. The Fantastic Four are about discovery. The X-Men protect a world that hates and fears them. Spider-Man isn’t here to save the world. Spider-Man is here to protect ordinary people – people like May Parker.

In conclusion: fuck Superfamily as a widespread trend.

Anyway I had to see an actual article about the MCU refer to two characters as Spider-Man’s “Avenger dads” and another suggest that Dr. Strange and Spider-Man are the father-son combo we never knew we always needed (it’s not, and we don’t), so I guess I’m going to go live in a cave and throw rocks at innocent hikers who stumble upon my Spider-Man Opinions cave now.

#this is for you anon!#and not for stroking the fires of the my hatred!#not for that at all!#traincat talks comics #traincat talks homecoming #tangentially #peter parker #may parker #long post/

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