Could I ask a kind of specific question? White Rabbit Fest coming out in the EN server and there's this line when Epel references a tough person from Clock Town a relative mentioned by the name of "Cold One Duke", who we can tell is Deuce and probably just a misheard "Cauldron Deuce " What I was wondering was how this played out in the JP version since I know in these cases the dialogue has more wordplay and slight differences in the words that have to be translated with liberties on EN for us to get a similar experience.
Hello hello!! Thank you so much for this question! I have been very much looking forward to EN's solution to this scene ♪
Epel originally says, "Scythe Duke"!
(or "Duke of Scythes"--it can go either way)
The word used for scythe (大鎌, ogama) is pronounced exactly the same as 大釜 (ogama), which means: cauldron!
The word "cauldron" is only used for one thing in English (as far as I know 👀), so EN had to come up with an entirely new word that sounds close enough that Epel's relative could logically mistake "cauldron" for it--and they landed on "cold one"! ^^
This is also why Deuce panics: Epel could be saying either "cauldron" or "scythe," and there aren't enough context clues for them to figure it out.
Both Grim and Silver repeat "ogama" in hiragana, since they don't know which "ogama" Epel means (the hiragana alphabet is just sounds--the symbols do not have individual meanings like kanji do).
In order to understand Silver follows up with, "Ogama like a pot?"
Epel responds, "the kind with a blade," specifying that he means the "scythe" ogama, not the "cauldron" ogama :>
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FUN FACT: Did you know that Vegeta wasn't blowing smoke on Namek when he claimed to have become a Super Saiyan?
Well. Not entirely, anyway.
And also the process of becoming a Super Saiyan is kind of complicated, and Goku is an enlightened martial arts master.
The process of becoming a Super Saiyan is complicated. The English dub got a bit confused on this point while they were frantically erasing as much spirituality and also martial arts and general power levels talk as they could from the series.
The dub was bad. I don't think that's a surprise to anyone. It was a 90's anime dub. It scrubbed the source material of a lot of stuff.
But specifically here, the dub confused matters when it said that to become a Super Saiyan, you have to be pure of heart. This confused matters, because being purehearted is a thing in Dragon Ball. You have to be purehearted to ride the Nimbus.
This concept of pureheartedness exists in Dragon Ball. But it has nothing to do with the Super Saiyan.
This isn't the same as that. To become a Super Saiyan, you need something else. Notably, the Viz manga also translates this idea as "pure of heart"....
But the idea being translated here is more along the lines of tranquility than innocent goodness.
Becoming a Super Saiyan is a bit of a process. To understand the Super Saiyan, we need to talk about limit-breaking. This is a concept that's expressed repeatedly throughout Dragon Ball. In order to become Dragon Ball Powerful, you have to break your limits. You hit a ceiling and that's as far as you can go, until you find some new way to push through and break that ceiling. The series is big on this idea.
As an example, Mr. Satan is an incredibly formidable martial artist. He is peak. Top-tier fighter. ...within human limits. But he doesn't hold a candle to Krillin because Krillin broke the human limit in childhood.
Mr. Satan is basically Panput from the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.
Saiyans are in a different league from humans, and they have different set limits. Different norms, different standards, and different potentials. But, like humans, there's a ceiling. The first step to becoming a Super Saiyan is breaking the Saiyan limit.
Goku, as a low-class Saiyan trained on Earth in martial arts, was able to break through the Saiyan limit during his gravity training in space. This wasn't the goal of his training, mind; Goku had a particular goal in mind. He was subjecting himself to intense gravity so that he could acclimate his body to withstanding higher levels of Kaioken.
Not even realizing that was what he was doing, Goku was the first to shatter his Saiyan boundary and take the first step to becoming a Super Saiyan.
That Goku has transcended Saiyan abilities isn't lost on either Vegeta or Captain Ginyu, both of whom peg him as a Super Saiyan... before walking it back because Goku lacks the overwhelming bloodthirst and battle hunger that characterizes the legend.
Poor Goku has no idea what any of these people are on about. He might as well be listening to Game of Thrones fans infodump about the Lannisters.
But he wasn't alone. During his fight with Jeice following his third Zenkai of the arc, Vegeta finds himself trashing Jeice. Vegeta's as surprised as Jeice is, to be honest. Even with a Zenkai, he should not be doing this well.
Vegeta's last Zenkai wasn't just a Zenkai. It pushed him through the Saiyan limit.
You see, something happens to a Saiyan as they cross that boundary. Their ki begins to swell astronomically in preparation for becoming a Super Saiyan. Both Goku and Vegeta at this point have entered a sort of proto-Super Saiyan state. Their powers are passively being inflated.
Goku, too, eventually realizes that his power is growing at an astronomical rate that cannot be explained by his training or his Zenkai boosts or any phenomenon he's aware of. He's just. Swelling with power for reasons he can't fathom.
Neither of them are Super Saiyans yet. They still need the right spark to ignite it - and, despite knowing more about the Super Saiyan legend than Goku, Vegeta has no idea what that spark is. But they're both inflating like balloons in preparation for ignition.
Vegeta brings up the proto-Super Saiyan again in his first showdown with Frieza.
He recognizes that he is not yet the Super Saiyan. But he is a proto-Super Saiyan. He still feels it, still feels his power inflating within himself. He just. Needs. That. Spark.
But he won't find it. He said it himself: He doesn't think Goku and his "soft heart" can become the Super Saiyan. The Super Saiyan is supposed to be filled with rage and battle hunger.
But breaking the Saiyan limit isn't enough. You need the spark: A tranquil heart awakened by rage.
There are two pieces to that. The first is a tranquil heart. What does that mean? It means tranquility. Stillness. Peace. Becoming one with yourself and the cosmic universe.
During his training in space, with nothing to concern himself with and no distractions, Goku found tranquility. Alone in the void of space with only his beloved art, he achieved a measure of serenity and peace that he's never known before.
When Goku steps off that ship, he's different. He's entirely focused on the task at hand. He doesn't even want to fight the Ginyus, which is a stark departure for his character. He has no interest in the joy of battle; Only in doing what he came for and going home.
Goku asks the Ginyu Force multiple times to just go away. He does not care about this. He is thoroughly disinterested in fighting.
He's not even mad. They beat up his son and his best friend, and Goku does not care. Also, he can read minds now. Because he is the Heavenly Buddha, I guess.
This is a super weird moment, but its main purpose is to demonstrate that Goku has become... something else. He's not just "Goku but stronger"; he's changed on a fundamental level.
Goku is no longer a rash, impulsive student. He has become a master of his art. Do you see that kanji on his back? Kaio presented Goku with this new dogi after he got out of the hospital... uh... somehow.
You. Uh. You gonna elaborate on where the fuck that came from, Goku? No? Okay, man. You do you.
In any case, Goku's new dogi is distinctive because it erases the sigils of both the Kame school and Kaio. Originally, he would wear the Kame sigils on both front and back to reflect his status as a student of Kame-senryu.
Even if he did only technically study Kame-senryu for less than a year. It's fine; the Muten-Roshi filled him with a lot of philosophy that's guided him over the years so it still counts.
After he trained under Kaio, the sigil on his back was replaced with Kaio's sigil, to reflect that he is Kaio's student now as much as he is the Muten-Roshi's. Though he left the Kame-senryu sigil on Goku's front, because he is a student of both.
But from the moment Goku steps off that ship, both Kaio and the Kame sigils have been replaced by this new one.
This new sigil serves two purposes. First is that it's the first kanji of Goku's name. Both of his masters are now gone from Goku's expression, replaced by Goku himself; This symbolizes that Goku has, himself, become the master. His art is now fully his own.
Goku is at the peak of his journey. There is nothing more for him to learn. It falls to him now to cultivate, develop, and evolve his art for himself, using the knowledge and mastery he's acquired. And, as we'll see in the next arc, to ultimately pass it on to the next generation to come.
But, bringing this back to the tranquil heart thing: The kanji for 'Go' also represents enlightenment. Goku has found peace with himself and his place in the cosmic universe. That is why he, and not Vegeta, is ready to have his spark ignited.
He's broken the Saiyan limit. He has a tranquil heart. All he needs now is to snap, and have his tranquil heart awakened by rage.
But Vegeta still has a ways to go. Because his heart is far from tranquil.
The best he can come up with is "I Zenkai'd into this, I can Zenkai out of it!" Vegeta is very fettered, especially in conflict with Frieza. He is not one with the cosmic universe. He is a nervous wreck of emotions and wants and distractions. He was so close, but he could never have ignited here. Not under these circumstances.
No, Vegeta would only find his tranquility after becoming stranded on Earth. (No, anime, Vegeta did not have a spare spaceship on hand to leave immediately.)
Three years, living at Capsule Corp until he moved out and got his own place. Free from the yoke of Frieza and able to pursue nothing more than his own self-improvement. Driven by a desire to surpass Goku but in a low-stress environment...
...and apparently hanging out with Bulma in his downtime.
That's where Vegeta found his tranquility. And the spark of rage that ignited his tranquil heart? His own inadequacies, of course.
Never change, Vegeta. XD
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I am of the firm belief that Joowon will never in a million years call Dongsik "hyung", because it implies a hierarchical relationship that is not present in canon.
They are partners and equals, not student and mentor.
Dongsik never tries to take charge of Joowon, especially in the beginning of their relationship where Joowon is literally his superior.
If you look at the two men who actually call Dongsik "hyung" (Jihoon and Sangyeob), it is immediately clear that those relationships do have a power dynamic going on that favors Dongsik, and that Dongsik is a sort of leader and guide, giving them little tips and offering advice in general. He does NOT do this for Joowon.
(Sidenote: notice how Dongsik takes the blame for what Sangyeob did and lets himself be demoted, and tells Jihoon that "hyung will take care of it".
Dongsik would never do either of these things for Joowon because, again, Joowon is his equal)
The only thing Dongsik has ever succesfully made Joowon do is eat that one time, and it seemed to worry him greatly that Joowon actually obeyed lol.
When Dongsik scolded Joowon for running into danger alone, Joowon was very clearly not actually apologetic at all.
Their very last conversation is even Dongsik trying to mentor him just a little bit, and Joowon rejecting it
(don't talk to me like I'm a child, as some translations put it) (yes I know he's talking about the different formality registers in the Korean language)
Unlike with Jihoon and Sangyeob, Dongsik clearly sees and treats Joowon as someone he can rely on, not someone he needs to protect.
In fact, it's more common for Joowon to protect Dongsik, both physically and verbally.
Joowon only calls one person "hyung", and that is his former live-in tutor whom he still begs favours off of as an adult. Can you imagine Joowon begging Dongsik for a favour? No, me neither.
And Joowon is just not someone who bends to authority at all, I'm not Korean and I don't speak it, but I know that some of the comments about his character from Korean viewers are precisely about how abrasive and disrepectful he is towards people he is supposed to show "proper" respect, expressed in a way that is difficult to translate into English.
According to Yeo Jingoo himself, Joowon "doesn't really care if People are older or have more experience than him"
When the actors were asked about their relationship, Yeo Jingoo answered that their relationship was that of equals, while Shin Hakyun says that it is hierarchical, with Dongsik as the inferior.
You can do with that what you will, but please notice how they definitely agree that Joowon is NOT subservient to Dongsik lol.
And I think it is an extremely important part of their dynamic - Joowon is someone that Dongsik doesn't have to pretend to be strong for, someone he can rely on, someone who will insist on taking on his burdens and walk in front of him (even literally bodily stepping in between Dongsik and danger), someone who will also take care of Dongsik for once.
Dongsik and Joowon are both incredibly lonely men, who break down each other's walls and see the other for who they really are - it is very much mutual. Because they are partners and equals.
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Fan-translation Plagiarism for DM Vol.1
I've noticed similarities between a Death Mark manga translation that is currently being worked on by @lamentations-lighthouse (aris on Discord) and a translation done by @kasmis, posted on Tumblr in 2022.
Enough similarities that I suspect kasmis' existing translation has been lifted directly in parts of their translation. I spoke with kasmis about it and she’s aware of the situation and shared some more info from her side.
You can view kasmis' original translation here. On the first page, you can see the disclaimer about working with an existing scanlation group with plans to publicly list the final version on an ad-free manga sharing site (added once she was made aware of the situation). I won’t go over all similarities, but this second translation in question is available on a public Discord and can be compared there. I wanted to point out three instances that I think are particularly noticeable, but I encourage anyone who is curious to look for themselves.
Pictures & Evidence under the cut.
1st comparison: translation notes
The translation notes shared between the two versions regarding the way characters speak is similar both in content and flow. They also both come at the end of Chapter 2.
kasmis' translation:
other translation:
I think this is also worth mentioning considering a comment made by lamentations-lighthouse in their Discord where they make a very blatant error determining who is speaking during a panel in a Vol 2 extra, when they spent an entire translator’s note going over how the characters talk. They incorrectly assume Banshee is the speaker, when it’s obvious with a working knowledge of Japanese that the speaker is female and likely Yasuoka, the only woman in the panel (again, aris is lamentations-lighthouse, Kiu is the current editor who is not on Tumblr):
2nd comparison: "guess we're in the same boat"
One of the lines from Chapter 2 is lifted directly from kasmis' translation. This isn't a matter of translating the same material and coming to a similar conclusion, as the original Japanese line is completely different.
In the bottom left corner, Mashita uses the expression "腹をくくる" when talking about the Mark. His line (very) literally translated would be something like "Looks like I should prepare for the worst, too"
kasmis has gone on record with me saying she took some creative liberty when translating this bubble, using it as a callback to a line of his from the actual game (the scene from the car ride back to the mansion where they're having this same conversation). Additionally, she was very clear in stating this change was purposefully made to act as an indicator of if someone was using her translation without her permission, as a translation not referencing hers would likely translate it differently. In her words: it’s a phrase that doesn’t get spit out neatly when put through machine translation, but also is easily understandable to anyone using a dictionary for reference. The term for “being in the same boat” as someone is entirely different (一連托生) and is not a logical conclusion when going solely based off the text. Here is a link to the site in the second screenshot showing an explanation of this phrase by native Japanese speakers offering English advice. The phrase has the same translation when entered into a Japanese dictionary as well.
kasmis initially didn't translate the line such a way either. Here is a comparison from her first draft (which was copy-pasted from her individual chapter translations she did back in early 2021) and the eventual change later that same year. The part in question is underlined:
Here's the comparison between the most recent version of her translation and the other translation:
Even if this group were employing a similar strategy, the chances of the "indicator" line being exactly the same is hard to believe.
3rd comparison: XX/XX/199X
This observation is somewhat minor, but the date format used throughout Chapter 2 is the exact same one used by kasmis in her translation, just with the order switched around. In the raws, the dates are written as "O (Month) X (Day)," aka censored placeholders for month and day, with no mention of the year. kasmis stated she decided to use the 199X/XX/XX format to better relay some of the info from the game (the year 199X being mentioned in the diary seen after the final confrontation). While this team may be doing the same, it's odd how it's exactly the same.
Raws for comparison:
kasmis' translation:
other translation:
Public Bashing of kasmis and Proof of Knowledge of Her Translation
kasmis was contacted by @buffaloborgine about using her translation in their project, but she stated she was working with a separate group and that she did not give them permission to use any of her translation in their own project. This user is currently working on a translation of Volume 2 of the manga. For transparency, in the 3 day gap between messages seen below, buffaloborgine joined lamentations-lighthouse and Kiu’s group, so the relationship was not established initially. buffaloborgine did not disclose however they were collaborating/in contact with lamentations-lighthouse, when in fact both are now moderators in the discord where the new translation is being uploaded. kasmis followed up with buffaloborgine once she was made aware of this connection. Below are her initial answer to the offer (note dates) and the follow-up messages (screenshots taken on 4/24):
buffaloborgine discussed their conversation in the Discord server (screenshots taken on 4/24):
They later followed up complaining about kasmis’ reply publicly in the Discord while omitting similar relevant details (screenshots taken on 4/24):
Again, note that kasmis’ reply was only 3 days after this initial explanation, not 1-2 weeks as they originally stated. Though this gap doesn't really need an explanation in my opinion, kasmis agreed to allow me to share that she was in fact in preparation for a medical procedure and was not available to answer messages at the time. She sent her follow up message regarding lamentations-lighthouse's translation because I informed her of buffaloborgine's presence in the Discord server.
The messages from buffaloborgine to kasmis also appear to show the team had direct knowledge of her existing translation, as the editor in question is Kiu. At no point did any individual besides buffaloborgine reach out to her about potentially collaborating or using her translation in any way. aris/lamentations-lighthouse claimed to have no knowledge of the translation and similarly shamed kasmis in their public (reiterating this fact) Discord, where all of these messages are available to anyone who joins (screenshot taken on 4/24):
For this reason kasmis decided not to reach out to lamentations-lighthouse directly as they already publicly denied knowing anything about her translation.
I think it’s also worth pointing out, since the SH Reddit has been mentioned, that kasmis shared her translation there as well last year. The comment can be found here. As a relatively inactive subreddit, this post and her comment are not hard to find.
If anyone mentioned in this post wants to go on record in response, something as simple as posting the version history from their working draft (as seen in kasmis’ Google Docs screenshots, for example) to show that they aren't simply modifying her existing translation could help clear up any confusion. lamentations-lighthouse stated in the Discord that they use Google Docs to communicate with their editor, so showing their process should be fairly simple (screenshot taken on 4/23):
Disclaimer: kasmis and I are friends and she provided input and helped write parts of this post. This post is not meant to be an outright accusation, nor is it implying that lamentations-lighthouse’s translation is a one-to-one copy of kasmis’. I wanted to draw attention to the similarities between the two translations, kasmis’ experience, and the available information we have. All screenshots and images shared here are unedited besides cropping, redacting the information from third parties, and marking relevant points. Time stamps marked as “today” have the associated date attached to them in the description. The relevant Discord server is publicly available at the time of posting and all conversations screenshotted are available in public channels.
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