#and of course Sylvie doesn’t exist
alicerovai · 4 months ago
Honestly when the second season of Loki will be released I don’t care what will happen, because in my mind Mobius and Loki are in love and Mobius has long hair.
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adastra121 · 10 months ago
*looks at the loki ship discourse*
*looks at non-bisexual people trying to say what is and isn’t good rep for bi romance*
*looks at people calling the relationship with a male-presenting and female-presenting genderfluid bisexual characters heterosexual*
Great pride month, everybody, let’s do it again sometime.
#…I’m tired#yes there are valid points about marvel choosing to show loki falling in love with an alternate universe version of himself#before another male-presenting individual#yes we should talk about that#but m/f relationships with bi people are valid and like…weird and messy relationships with bi people are also valid#and explicitly bi characters are not fodder for your shipping nor a pathway to making a certain ship canon#of course there are valid criticisms but god isn’t it so easy to see the casual biphobia some people demonstrate#both queer and straight fans#let’s not pretend sylki is a garbage ship because it wasn’t lgbtqTM enough#oh sorry I mean lg enough#because like…bi relationships and romances don’t exist just to satisfy your wishes#personally I feel like they could have developed loki and mobius’s relationship a bit more#but like…I don’t know how I want to put this#i don’t know if I want the first same sex romance in the mcu to include a cop#what with the real life impact of actual police on lgbtq communities#I liked the relationship with loki and sylvie because it felt more…organic if that makes sense?#mobius already knows everything about loki he doesn’t have a choice in that#but loki and sylvie shared things about themselves that would make them vulnerable to each because because they wanted to#I also like the chaotic dynamic that loki and mobius don’t have XD#i ship both but right now sylki is more appealing to me out of spite#the ideal ship is all of them together#mobius has the brain cell#but only when he manages to get ravonna to lend it to him
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euphoriaonpluto · 10 months ago
Queer Representation
Alright let's talk about Loki and Good Omens.
Before anyone tries anything, I am going to state upfront that I am a biromantic asexual. So keep that in mind before you automatically take what I want to say in bad faith and go to accuse me of bigotry.
I want to talk about how the only ones benefitting from the way we handle queer rep discourse right now are the queerphobic networks and execs.
First, let's look at Loki. The MCU's first canonically queer character. Since episode 4 came out yesterday, I have seen multiple accusations go around of people who are upset about the hinted romance between Loki and Sylvie being biphobic. Bi people are allowed to date people of the opposite gender, you say. And of course they are. But you are purposefully missing the whole point of why people are upset.
The MCU is a 13 year old franchise and Loki is the first time they are actively acknowledging the existance of queer people. This, despite how infuriating it is, is pretty par for the course when it comes to fantasy and sci-fi media. These two genres are notoriously horrible when it comes to diversity and the portrayal of queerness. So it's only natural that people are going to be upset about what Disney is doing right now, and no, they aren't upset because they hate bisexuals.
Fiction in inherently limited to what is portrayed on screen/in the text. We don't know a character's every thought and feeling and we have not seen their entire life. Which is why good media follows the 'show not tell' rule. A character making an off-handed comment about their sexuality is never going to be enough representation, not when Marvel continues to refuse to portray explicity queer relationships or have their queer characters have any experiences tied to their queerness at all.
So sure, bisexuals can date people of the opposite gender and still be bisexual, obviously. But why are you guys acting as it that isn't how most bi people are portrayed anyways? Aren't most bisexual characters only shown being in het-alighned relationships and their identities only acknoleghed like a couple of times in passing converations? Please point me to the abundance of bisexual characters in fantasy and sci-fi shows who have actually been shown being in a relationship with a person of the same gender or have explicitly gone through stuff linked to their queer identity. Please go ahead.
Now let's look at Good Omens, specifically Aziraphale and Crowley's relationship. The constant discourse there is that queer relationships don't always need to be physical. "Aziraphale and Crowley can be asexual!!!! They don't have to kiss on screen for their relationship to be valid!!!!!" Okay fine but can you please first point me to all of those explicit mlm couples that you are refering to when you use the word always. What does always mean in this case? Are you telling me that fantasy and sci-fi shows are so oversaturated with explicit mlm and wlw relationships that some change of pace is desparately needed?
All of this discourse around the two shows is purposefully ignoring the history of homophobia in film and TV. Despite the code being removed almost sixty years ago, the film indistry is still in the shackles of the fucking Hays code. Queerness is viewed as dirty and sinful. Queer men and viewed as sick predators. MLM relationships are treated are perverted and nsfw and will someone please think of the children!
So why, please tell me, WHY are you giving the powers that be such loopholes for them to continue to not portray queerness while wearing a brand new woke hat? Do you not realise that you are giving Disney the option to continue to never portray queer relationships because all they had to do was write one short line of dialogue and now whenever someone tries to demand mlm representation they are going to be accused of biphobia. Loki can go on to never be shown having interest in someone of the same gender or having queer experiances at all, be it discussing his identity or anyone else around him acknowledging it or having his part experiences shape his behavior or anything at all that is just part of real queer people's lives. And people will continue to uphold his character as good representation because he said the sentence "a bit of both". Disney would rather Loki go and fuck a female version of himself than portray a mlm relationship on screen and you go and accuse people of biphobia for pointing that out.
Nuance is great. It's needed. But, perhaps, before we start talking about the nuances of sexuality and identity and the nature of queer relationships we should at least get to see some gay people kiss on screen, don't you think? When there is sufficient mlm and wlw representation in fantasy and sci-fi shows and movies, we can go on to talk about all of these things. But until then all you're doing is giving networks the excuse to never show an ounce of queerness on screen and then market their product as queer rep becase the writer said they love each other on twitter and oh if you object to that at all you're acephobic because their relationship doesn't have to be physical! Nevermind that homophobia still holds that industry by the throat and they continue to find gay relationships are disgusting and less than and to be avoided at all cost.
TL:DR - let some gay people kiss on screen first before you start giving networks exuses to not portray explicit queerness.
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desos-records · 7 months ago
Character Flaws in Loki (2021)
Okay. I can’t stay silent about this anymore. Sylvie is a fantastic female character and let me tell you why. 
She’s broken, fundamentally, and has trauma that impacts her character on nearly every level. You don’t get to see that with female characters hardly ever. Obviously other female characters have trauma, that part isn’t what makes Sylvie unique. What makes her different is that the writers don’t wave her brokenness under the rug anytime it’s inconvenient to the plot. They don’t make it cute or turn her into someone who needs saving. In fact, she’s an absolute powerhouse primarily because of her broken parts. It is both her best strength and her worst weakness, which is how you know you’ve got a character with well-written flaws because character flaws should just be strengths used in the wrong situations.
She has trouble trusting people because she’s been hunted her entire life and that doesn’t immediately go away the second she develops a connection with Loki. And--from her point of view--he betrays her trust at the end when he explicitly promised he wouldn’t. Of course she retreats back into her armor, it’s what has kept her alive this long. And I’m still not convinced she made the wrong decision.
He Who Remains’ entire monologue excuses authoritarianism--that it can be good if only the right people were in charge. Which is a tempting idea, especially for Loki, who just a matter of days ago in this timeline made very much the same argument. Maybe he and Sylvie, together, are the right people. But it would still be authoritarian. It would still be robbing people of choice, which is something Sylvie absolutely will not do because she was never given a choice in life. And from what she knows about him, Loki had every choice.
Maybe that doesn’t make her a relatable character for many people, but it makes her relatable to me. I thought I would have to write this kind of female character into existence myself before I ever saw one on screen. It is so important for me that one of the main points of Sylvie’s arc is that she is worthy of love, capable of being good, no matter what she’s done or who she’s been before. She deserves to have a choice even if she’s a little broken.
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You what gets me? That Loki, our Loki, will probably never have any meaningful interaction with the characters that were his family ever again. Definitely not with Thor. No motivational pep-talks with Frigga and Odin for Loki. So, in episode 3 of the series, when Sylvie and Loki are sitting together on the train and she actually asks him about his “adoption”, in that moment she is the closest thing to a family member he’s got left (that is if we are to believe that she’s a Loki too, and had a Frigga and Odin of her own) and she’s actually asking him about it. She’s the first and only person to ever ask him about it.
“Didn’t they tell you?”
Hoo boy, what a loaded question, right??
And when I was watching it, I thought, ok, here we go. But instead he just…”yeah, of course they told me, eventually…” ??? I couldn’t believe they had him just skippity-do-da over that so blithely! I mean, there’s a little bit more to it than that, isn’t there? I mean, yeah, of course they told him eventually, yeah! Of course they did! It just so happens that they had no other choice BUT to tell him at the time, because he was standing there turning ice cold and blue and they literally could not lie to his face anymore, but yeah, of course they told him eventually! I mean, what do you think they are, a couple of stone-cold lyin’ jerks?
It was kind of a defining moment for Loki, if not THE defining moment. And here someone is finally asking him about it, and is willing to listen to the answer, and at first I thought Loki was going to finally get to open up and tell someone what happened and how it made him feel, but now I realize that the whole conversation doesn’t exist so that Loki can finally open up and share his feelings. Oh God no. The conversation exists as yet another example of why Loki is a weak, spoiled, privileged Prince who was lucky to be taught magic by his wonderful mother, and the poor, amazing, incredible Sylvie was not.
That’s when my willingness to give this show a chance completely soured. It really isn’t about him, and they never wanted it to be, not like that. It’s not so much about him as it is that he’s just in it. He’s just there. A prop. The most attractive tool in their tool box.
It's funny because this is supposed to be the same Loki who, just a couple of nights ago, had a somewhat conversation with Thor about his true parentage and he was very, very much NOT okay with it.
OMG I couldn't agree more with you anon!
They went from this
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and this
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to this
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Like it was no big deal, like he didn't have a meltdown after he found out (they didn't tell him, he found out!), like both Odin and Frigga didn't try to manipulate him after the fact.
Like you I wanted that chat with Sylvie to be an opportunity for Loki to talk about it, stop calling it "adoption", express his feelings about his heritage and finally come clean with how bad he had been mistreated all his life because of his origins. But that chat wasn't about him at all, the only purpose was to show Sylvie knew all along and her family had told her because she's such a good girl.
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raifenlf · 9 months ago
Why Loki’s Sylvie Is A Mary Sue
So I am firmly in the camp that Sylvie on the Loki series was/is a Mary Sue.  The last episode made me feel better and like maybe the show was doing a thing where they were faking you out that she was a Mary Sue only to show she was actually sort of a bad guy and I liked that.  But all the recent interviews make me think the show wants to go back to her being a Mary Sue.
But I feel like when I call her out for being a Mary Sue people tell me what are you talking about, she’s not a Mary Sue, bad things happen to her, etc.  But that doesn’t actually make her not a Mary Sue.  
Also, before we start, I know some people find Mary Sue sexist.  But I personally use the term for guys and girls. I don’t use the term to belittle women.  I use the term to criticize a poorly written character.
And I know Mary Sue is often used to describe fanfic characters.  But to me, this series is kind of like a fanfic because the writers took a character who had been in canon MCU material for ten years and then created characters around that character.  So, I kind of review it like I would a fanfic.  It’s very different than if the writers had created a brand new show with all of their own new characters.
Anyway, if you are not totally familiar with the Mary Sue term, then check this out:
I know the term Mary Sue probably means different things to different people.  But I have always used these guidelines when I write my own fanfic to make sure my characters never come off as a Mary Sue.
This article really gives you a full scale of what a Mary Sue is.  If you start reading it, you’ll immediately see why Sylvie is.  But I’m going to take out the parts that most fit Sylvie just to highlight why I believe she is a Mary Sue.  I apologize for this being so long.
Mary Sue Character Traits
Erm... what personality? The typical Mary Sue doesn't have one per se, because she isn't meant to be a character; rather, she's an entity by which the author makes cool stuff happen.
I feel like that is Sylvie in a nutshell.  She doesn’t have a personality.  I feel like even though she ate screentime, I still don’t really know her at all.  The writers love to say she’s badass.  That’s not a personality.  
Sometimes when I am writing stories for fun and creating new characters, I like to take surveys as my fictional characters.  Like the kind of surveys you’d see in a magazine, like personality types, what’s your dating style, etc.  I figure if I don’t know what my character would do in any of those situations, then I need to keep working on my character.  And if I was trying to fill out a survey pretending I was Sylvie I would have no idea what to answer because she doesn’t have a personality.  She’s just “cool”.
What little personality a Mary Sue has isn't as important as how other characters react to it. No matter how shy or socially awkward Mary Sue is supposed to be, other characters will be inexplicably drawn to her
This is so Sylvie.  Loki falls in love with her...why, exactly?  He falls in love with her in the big Nexus event moment...why?  Because she had a tough childhood?  Mobius spends like two seconds with her in a car and goes from hating her to saying she’s his favorite Loki.  For. No. Particular. Reason.
She's extremely persuasive; everyone finds her opinions to be better than their own
She enchants Hunter B-15 and then immediately Hunter B-15 makes it her whole entire life mission to back Sylvie up.  
And occasionally she'll be a complete asshole...This can manifest itself in several ways...The author wants to write a badass but doesn't know how. This leads to a character who mistreats everyone around her and is never called out on her abrasive, casually abusive behavior.
Sylvie talked down to Loki and treated him like garbage for all of episode three, but it was never portrayed as a bad thing and we never got any impression Sylvie later felt bad for the way she treated Loki
The author doesn't know how to hold back the character, meaning that she will succeed at practically everything. This means that when she encounters rules or authority figures who would otherwise prevent her from doing what she wants to do, she rolls right through them (and they praise her for her "boldness" in defying regulations). If a bad guy is violent and aggressive, she can beat him by being more violent and aggressive (with all that entails). It's impossible for her to go overboard because she's protected by Protagonist-Centered Morality.
Sylvie is shown as a kid to immediately be able to grab a Tempad and run away.  And she can kick ass way better than Loki, for no known reason.  She is always able to fight back against the TVA when they attack her.  And she can kill lots of innocent TVA agents but it’s okay because TVA bad, Sylvie good.
She will always be superior to the canon characters, regardless of what canon has established they can do or whether it makes any sense.
Whose skill was needed to defeat Alioth?  Sylvie’s.  Of course.  Sylvie needed to teach Loki her skills in order for him to succeed (!).  And again, she is literally called the superior Loki.
Relatedly, there's no effort to her skills. She never actually trains or learns anything to become more powerful; she just wins the Super Power Lottery, or is a freakish natural learner, or is just Inexplicably Awesome
We’re told Sylvie literally taught herself magic.  She literally taught herself to enchant people.  That. Makes. No. Sense.  Like, I have so many questions.  Like, why would it even occur to her to teach herself that?  And how????????????  This is really lazy writing.
Canon Character Relationships
Mary Sue is often designed to hook up with another character, often as a form of Wish Fulfillment. This isn't that bad in and of itself (okay, it is kinda weird), but Mary Sue accomplishes this without any sense of realism. She just grabs her lover's attention straight away, and their relationship will never face any obstacles or tension; it's true love from the start and nothing else. The biggest giveaway is if the love interest is explicitly the author's favorite character, and she essentially "cures" him of all the angst that ails him (at the expense of his characterization).
Yeah, so...this one should be pretty obvious to anyone who watched the show.  Loki literally falls in love with Sylvie immediately, and then he suddenly turns from “villain” to “hero” just because of loving her.  And this was definitely at the expense of his characterization.  And Loki just knows he falls in love with her.  There’s not even any moments of hmm what do I feel for this person?  It’s just true love, immediately.
She will be related to a canon character in some way. This (marginally) helps explain such phenomena as her being a Copy Cat Sue and other characters accepting her so easily.
Sylvie is a Loki variant.  They use this to help explain why Loki is drawn to her and why their falling in love immediately “makes sense”.
Most characters give her more heed than they normally would. The good guys never stop praising her
Seriously, it was so over the top and OOC for Loki to gush over her.  He literally tells her she’s amazing.  They don’t even make it subtle.
Characters' previously established personalities change in reaction to her. Proud, arrogant gimps suddenly acknowledge her superiority in everything. Reckless youths will listen to all her advice. Responsible leaders will defer to her instead. Villains will obsess with her to the detriment of all else. Extremely competent characters will become stumbling buffoons who require her help to do anything. Sweet, mild-mannered characters whom the author doesn't like turn evil and insult her. They all become unnaturally focused on her in some way.
Again, Loki’s whole personality changed in reaction to her.  He became a buffoon who needed her help to enchant the Alioth because of course he couldn’t do anything without her!  Hunter B-15 goes from doing whatever the TVA said to fighting the TVA just because of Sylvie.
Story Elements
Mary Sue is without exception a single-person Spotlight-Stealing Squad. The entire story hinges on her existence; if you removed her, there would be no story. 
Sylvie undoubtedly drove the whole story this season.  It all became about HER meeting the TVA heads because of HER trauma.  Loki’s life was only saved at the beginning because the TVA was trying to capture HER.  And SHE was the one who started the whole multiverse (!).
Mary Sue is The Chosen One, even if the setting already has one. There are many ways she can accomplish this: she can be a Sailor Earth type who "shares" the position with the canon hero; she may be vaguely "destined to help the destined one fulfill their destiny" (i.e. do all the work except the final blow so that the prophecy is still technically correct); or the canon hero may be revealed to be a Fake Ultimate Hero all along. Being the Chosen One doesn't necessarily involve her being a God-Mode Sue, especially as authors become aware of the phenomenon and try to avoid it, but it does make her critically important to the world and allows her to continue stealing the spotlight without the "god mode" label.
HWR wanted Sylvie to come with Loki in the end, like she was chosen all along right alongside Loki.  Like one of the most important characters in the entire MCU is now this character who we only met a few episodes ago.
Most Sues have an unusually Dark and Troubled Past. It's often used to create a Sympathetic Sue, but any type of Sue can have one
They tell us, over and over, how hard Sylvie’s life was because she was kidnapped by the TVA in order to create sympathy for her.
She almost never does anything wrong. In the rare instance that she does, it's usually; (a) a way for the author to disclaim her being a Mary Sue by introducing a single imperfection (that has no bearing on anything anyway), and (b) designed to show her smarts by making her feel instant remorse, and she'll be Easily Forgiven anyway:
So this one hopefully will not come true, as a lot can change between now and when the show is taped. But if the show goes on the way the behind the scenes team is talking, Sylvie immediately felt remorse for betraying Loki, and Loki has already forgiven her and is desperately looking for her.  Ugh.
Alternatively, she is more than capable of doing something wrong, be it in general moral terms or something that goes against whatever code she abides by, and she maybe even frequently does so, but don't expect the other characters or the narrative to ever acknowledge or comment on it in any real capacity. If the other characters do call her out, expect them to be treated like they're the problem for daring to criticize her at all.
Mobius calls her out for killing people, but Sylvie immediately says he’s a bad person and then Mobius agrees, because, of course.
She will often suffer from Special Snowflake Syndrome; i.e., she has a trait or backstory that sets her apart from her group or race.
She is the only female Loki, thus making her the special one among all the Lokis in episode five.
In visual media, the camera just can't stop staring at her.
The camera would follow her in fight scenes rather than Loki.
Mary Sue Tropes
Okay, so there are specific Mary Sue tropes that Sylvie is.  One of those is Copy Cat Sue, which I think was referenced before.
Copy Cat Sue
A lot of fanfic writers...start to write something because of their passion for this character, but they find something about the character that doesn't mesh well. Maybe they're the wrong gender or are otherwise not close enough to the author's expectations...In any case, rather than put them through the Possession Sue process, they just get a Clone-O-Matic™ and out pops a Copy Cat Sue...the character might be intended as a replacement for the canon character, but without whatever icky traits the author hates. They'll then rob the spotlight, prove the canon character to be unworthy of his/her position, and either relegate the character to obsolescence or, perhaps, even remove them entirely.
Sylvie is basically a clone of Loki, she is a variant.  But she absolutely robbed the spotlight of Loki’s, and they literally call her the superior Loki.  I mean, they are literally not even being subtle about this.  And there was a feeling by myself (and a lot of other viewers) that Sylvie might ultimately replace Loki in the MCU. 
Black Hole Sue
Much like a black hole, this is a Mary Sue who "sucks in" the plot and characters to her. Characters will behave outside their personalities, logic will be defied, and rules will be broken for her sake.
Sylvie really does suck up all the plot and Loki definitely behaves outside of his personality just to fit the Sylvie show.
Jerk Sue
A Mary Sue who is mean or maybe even cruel, but are still treated as an ideal person.
Once again, Sylvie is basically a jerk all of episode three, but you’ve got Loki falling over himself to call her amazing in just the next episode.
Relationship Sue
A Mary Sue who exists to be the perfect mate for a specific character...this character has everything in the plot conspiring to enforce this One True Pairing...in Fanfiction, they are the perfect beloved of a canon character.
They literally have Mobius speculate that Loki falling in love with Sylvie is so extraordinary that it causes an entire Nexus event, that’s how huge this One True Pairing is (!).  And Sylvie is the love interest of Loki, the only character who had been around before the beginning of the series
TLDR: Sylvie has all the tropes of a classic Mary Sue character.  So calling Sylvie a Mary Sue isn’t being sexist or just randomly hating on the character.  If you use common Mary Sue characteristics to examine the character, she just has too many of these characteristics to ignore.
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shamelesssylkishipper · 9 months ago
an in-depth analysis of the sylki kiss
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i rewatched this scene last night and i am still not over it. for many reasons. so here’s a little breakdown of why this scene absolutely destroys me.
the amount of pain that both of these characters are in before this moment is insane. as hard as he’s trying, loki can’t get sylvie, the one person he cares about more than anything, to see that he’s trying to protect her. she can’t see anything but red. her mind is completely consumed by the fact that the opportunity she has waited for her whole life is right in front of her. she craves revenge on the people that stole her life from her more than anything.
loki trying to stop her from getting this revenge is the ultimate betrayal. she immediately sees it as him being selfish because she’s never been given a reason to believe that people can be anything else. they fight and fight and he pleads with her the entire way. his heartbroken “sylvie... sylvie...” and “no!” absolutely murder me. the only thing that finally makes her pause is him literally throwing himself in front of her blade and dropping his own. she finally recognizes in that moment that he really truly cares for her. 
is it enough to completely stop her? absolutely not. she has spent her entire life fighting for the right to merely exist. this one selfless act isn’t enough to make her forget all of that. but it is enough to get her to allow herself this beautiful moment where she bares her entire heart and soul to him.
the kiss. the most emotion-filled act in the entire series. she initiates it, and the look on her face says it all. it’s a mix of confusion, sadness, joy, and loss all at once. she is hanging onto this moment as long as she can because she knows what she’s about to have to do to see her plan through.
loki, on the other hand, has no idea. relief is really the only thing written across his tear-stained face as their lips meet. he thinks that she finally believes and trusts him and his intentions. he thinks the nightmare is finally over.
(by the way, my favorite part about this whole scene is the music. even for anyone who isn’t a music nerd like me, the crescendo in the music as they kiss heightens the emotion in a truly breathtaking way. but it does hint at what’s to come. although it is a beautiful theme, it is still in a haunting minor key and therefore lends to the idea that this kiss doesn’t mean a happy ever after is soon to follow.)
when they finally break apart, loki is still gazing at her like she’s the only thing that matters in the entire universe. he doesn’t notice her grab the tempad from the desk behind them. she pushes him through a time door. he rushes back toward it but doesn’t make it before it closes. all he can do then is collapse to the ground in despair. he wanted more than anything to be able to keep his promise to sylvie that he wouldn’t betray her, but because of her choices, he couldn’t. and look where it got him. he allows himself a few moments to grieve but then stands with new purpose. he needs to find mobius, fix all of this, and get sylvie back. maybe he can still fix this right? but of course he soon discovers that’s going to be easier said than done.
sylvie doesn’t allow herself time to process what she’s done until after she has pushed her sword deep into kang’s chest. then the gravity of her decisions hit hard. she falls to the ground in tears. she’s truly alone for the first time since she met loki, and though she was used to it before, she isn’t anymore. she knows immediately that she messed up. not because she just destroyed every bit of order in the universe that ever existed, but because she pushed away the one person she could rely on, the one person that cares about her more than anything.
so now we have our two heroes(?) ripped apart from each other and lost in a now-infinite multiverse. literally anything could happen from here. so season two is definitely bound to be interesting. i know that the whole fandom is split on how happy or unhappy they were with the season one finale, and completely divided about what they want to happen next. but we do have this quote from the amazing tom hiddleston about how he expects the next season to go:
“i don’t think he will stop searching for sylvie now. he feels that this is something he has done, a mistake that he has made, and he’s invested in setting it right.”
okay wow. not only does this scream sylki, but also does anyone else notice the character growth here? what happened in the season one finale is literally the furthest thing from loki’s fault. he tried everything in his power to stop sylvie from making this massive mistake. but still he blames himself! so now not only does he have to process the grief from the tragedy that befell him and his star-crossed love, but he also has to deal with all of the guilt and responsibility that comes with it. and just like sylvie, he is completely alone, stuck in a timeline where mobius doesn’t even know who he is.
so in summary, hey marvel, if you could maybe give our boy a break here soon that would be awesome. he and sylvie deserve to be happy together! please! thanks!
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zoufantastical · 5 months ago
Loki vs Spiderman No Way Home on tackling the Multiverse
This post will contain spoilers for Spiderman NWH!
I’m gonna need Feige to entrust certain writers on themes that are gonna be touched upon in movies later on to be used in their series. Let me explain.
Spider-Man No Way Home really displayed how BAD and HORRENDOUS the Loki show actually is. Like, plot and writing wise, the Loki show has really, really aged badly. So I’m sitting here wondering, since technically NWH explores the concept of variants (a lot better than a whole ass show was supposed to), why didn’t the writers of NWH dealt with the series instead of giving it to an inexperienced writer/director? Genuine question.
NWH made the concept of the multiverse a lot more digestible than a series was supposed to in a way where if you didn’t watch What if ? or Loki (especially), you could understand it…because in this case Doctor Strange admitted that it’s a concept that he still doesn’t know a lot about. So it makes the audience not only equally curious but entangles them to learn about it at the same time with them. But as someone who DID watch Loki, I can tell the writer(s) has some really odd ideas on handling the concept of multiverses and variants.
What I loved about NWH concept of multiverse is that there was no “sacred timeline”. Loki’s idea of Kang keeping a sacred timeline is very flawed simply because to keep it in one “line”, there shouldn’t have been any variant drastically different from our Loki to the point they posed a risk of tampering with Kang’s desires of keeping a “sacred timeline” (examples like Boastful Loki, Sylvie, Alligator Loki etc). Branches that come from that sacred timeline should be mostly the same except a few environmental changes/decisions where it causes the flow of time to expand. I reiterate this because the Loki show contradicts itself. TVA would go as far as prune someone for being late on their way to work; we’ve seen them arrest normal civilians who you could tell were scared and confused.
NWH concept of the multiverse is very matter of factly and unified; the Peters were variants of each other [which by the way, this concept of the Peters being variants makes a LOT more sense]that are in a way technically not related by DNA but are in essence still the same person, just not the same individual since they come from DIFFERENT universes and NOT a BRANCH of the SAME UNIVERSE like Loki does. Their universal destinies were meant to be as Spidermen/Peter Parker. And it was done in less than three hours. In which I feel like that’s what the Loki series tried to do; to make the Lokis feel like their own person/treat the name as if a title of some sort but they of course failed in that aspect.
When you compared all that said with a lame, fascist organization, that apparently previously captured Thanos and vampires before but was easily defeated by being bitten by an eight year old Asgardian, made by a (black 😳) dictator pruning branches of the same timeline, but then have said characters contradict the existing ways the multiverse works in your show then…😬 especially when you have a writer and director going back and forth not knowing what to exactly describe Sylvie as…
Oh and speaking of Sylvie, so apparently Marvel CAN do siblings of the same variant relationships but it couldn’t be done with Loki and Sylvie ? I mean they kinda had the same amount of time together. They could have fallen in love (since apparently it can take less than 12 hours). Ah wait ? You say the are MALE? Wait one of them in underage ? No wait pause. Is it because they are loners and never had siblings so they related to each other more easily making the dynamic a lot more wholesome? Huh would you look at that. No self cest. Not even a hint. Interesting….
My expectations on dealing with the multiverse shenanigans are really high now. Especially with the knowledge that it CAN be done well. I don’t know how they’re going to go forward with Multiverse of Madness since Micheal Waldron, yes THE Micheal Waldron from the LOKI show I kept shitting on is the HEADWRITER. I’m also curious on how they are going to handle season two.
What a mess.
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har-rison-s · 10 months ago
pray, do tell
request: If you don’t mind me asking, request for Loki asking the other Loki’s if they have a s/o in their timeline during episode 5?
a/n: hi ! i absolutely ADORE this idea and i hope i'll write it out respectfully :)) i loved episode 5 so much, except for SOME scenes, and i especially enjoyed multiple lokis sitting around and talking, chilling, that's like... my dream place to be. YOU DON'T KNOW THE EFFECT PRESIDENT LOKI HAS ON ME. like it should be studied in labs and schools cos ??????? that feeling when he's on screen was just something else. also ! kid loki holding alligator loki my beloved <3. i'd love to be surrounded by lokis, me and loki actually have the same personality type so they're like... my people. sorry for the rant, hahah ! this one is a bit shorter than my other loki works, sorry about that :/ also it took me like 40 minutes to find decent gifs lmao. happy reading !! <3
mcu masterlist
warnings: nothing really
disclaimer: lokis mentioned have he/him pronouns !
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Weirded out by what he's seeing, and not entirely sure it's real, Loki can't take his eyes off it, either. The way alligator Loki drinks his boxed wine is just so fascinating to him, yet weird and other-wordly (he knows those well) at the same time. And he's weirded out more by the fact that he doesn't find a variant of him being an alligator strange in any way. He's had a few trying days, as he said himself.
Loki manages to divert his eyes off the creature with horns on its head and looks to the grapes he holds in his hand. He picks small dirt away from the berries and takes a grape into his mouth with ease. The taste reminds him of many things. His childhood, his home, his family... Thor, Frigga, Odin, Sif and the Warriors Three. Asgard. The Gardens, the waters, the Bifrost. Heimdall. Visits to the city, the markets, the celebrations.
Loki blinks, fooling himself and others by aiming to portray that he's not thinking about anything important. But he is. She was the most important thing to him, and now... Well, maybe during the New York heist, she's still fine, but after Ragnarok... Loki fears too much to think about it.
He wishes he could remember everything with her that followed New York, but all he has of their future is some worn-out tape in the TVA archives. Perhaps even pictures... He wants to live through all they had now, he wishes he could do that most of all. Of course, there's the finding Mobius and helping Sylvie burn down the TVA thing, but upon remembering her, it all falls into the background.
His first love. Not a god, like him, but she was a goddess in his eyes. He smiles now, subtly, at the fond memories of her. He noticed the little moments he had with her in the tape Mobius had, about his whole future. How beautiful she always was, her subtle way of laughing and going about her smiles and giggles, how exceptional and different her clothes always were, how her hair shined in any light...
“Did any of you...” Loki starts to say, and sighs shortly before continuing, thinking he'll probably regret asking it, “did any of you leave a... a lover behind when the TVA arrested you? Prince or princess?” He looks between his variants. Young Loki shoots him a stern look. “Apologies, my liege. You seem too young for that.” Loki bids him a polite smile, but his brain whirs. “How long have you been here, anyway?”
“Don't know. Time doesn't really... exist here.” Young Loki says and throws a salt biscuit into alligator Loki's jaws. “But no lovers in my lifetime, Loki.” He pointedly looks at the older variant of himself, nodding slightly.
“Not yet, at least.” Loki points out and gets scoffs and chuckles from Boastful and Classic Loki. He looks at them with a furrowed brow.
“Oh, you and your grand plan,” Classic Loki shakes his head before taking another sip from his huge cup. Loki only rolls his eyes, but still waits for answers to his question, “well,” Classic Loki downs his drink, “it would be no surprise to you that I had countless partners before I chose isolation. Partners of any kind.” He winks. Loki nods, understanding how much alike he truly is with his variants. “But I feel there is no one truly... truly made for me. Like midgardians would say - 'the one'.“
“In my case, there were many 'the ones',” Boastful Loki says, mocking Classic's use of words. All other Lokis roll their eyes, “I actually feel like every person in the whole universe was made to be with me. I'm just that irresistible.” He smiles pleasantly to himself. Alligator Loki growls again.
“That's another “liar” from him to you, Boast,” Classic Loki nods his head towards Boastful, who only shakes his head and frowns.
“I had my fair share of men and women before I was taken,” Boastful says, “must have been the same for you, Loki.” He looks at him. “Asgard was truly a giving place.”
Loki chuckles, but looks away from his variants. “Oh, it was...” he says quietly, “it was.” His voice grows even more quiet. Young and Classic Loki exchange a look.
“Do tell us, your mischievousness.” Classic Loki urges him. Loki shoots him a nervous look, then he leans back into the sofa and sighs, his eyes strictly focused on his hands.
“I had plenty before I met... one,” he starts to say, “me and her share a past, and, it seems, a future as well. After New York, I am taken to Asgard, imprisoned, but she is there. I fake my death and rule over Asgard as Odin, and she's there. I help Thor destroy our evil sister--”
“Oh, she was a nasty one.” Boastful says, shaking his head. “We used to have a connection, but then she just... I don't even know.” He shrugs. Loki eyes him for a second before continuing.
“We destroyed Asgard, but saved its people, and saved her. We make for Midgard, and she's there with me.” Loki sighs, his eyes gloomy. “And then... Thanos attacks, destroys half, if not all our people, and...” he can't even speak further. His variants share a look, each having quite the correct guess for what could follow after that. Boastful drinks from his cup in an awkward manner. “But I feel like that's another life I lived. Or another me. I don't know, I feel so... disconnected from her, from what we had. Must be the TVA and this... void. And all that's happened, all I've learned about my future.” He sighs again.
“Meeting her again would be a wake-up call, no?” Boastful asks. Loki shrugs, a sad expression on his face.
“Rather a sign that you're real.” Classic Loki says with a wide, true smile. Loki looks to him as if looking at a mentor. “I often felt like the people I loved and the love I had for them, even if it was not reciprocated, were a reminder that I am real, I exist and I can feel all these things.”
Loki considers his words, and then nods along, finding a truth in them.
“After all, love and all other emotions are the human part in all of us.” Classic says. “And it isn't always bad to feel like a regular human being.” Loki can also find truth in those words. Love makes one feel alive, makes you feel like you're on the right path, found the right person, found your purpose. It doesn't always have to be glorious, it can be small, but nonetheless important to you.
“I used to think humans smaller than us, more pathetic and puny, but...” Loki shakes his head, “we, gods, are just the same, really.” He chuckles sadly. “Having quarrels over the stupidest things, being as imperfect as humans... Sometimes I even felt like I was too good, too perfect for something like true love, which is a pathetic emotion that makes you feel all kinds of other feelings, but...” he smiles, “often times I felt like that, she told me everyone was deserving of love, even me.” His smile grows wider.
“She sounds lovely.” Classic Loki tells him with a kind smile.
“She was that, and more.” Loki nods along. Young Loki imitates the sound of a snore and throws a crumpled piece of paper at Loki's shoulder.
“You're making me extremely bored.” He announces and sits straighter in his chair, looking over the mess that is his palace. “Love's boring.” Young Loki throws a juice carton across the room, making a face.
“You are just too young to understand and know it, your majesty.” Boastful says with a wink, and the next juice carton is flying over his head with a snicker from Young Loki. Classic Loki keeps Boastful tight in his seat so an argument wouldn't arise, and Boastful hesitantly restrains, his drink almost spilling over his cup. Loki watches them with a sappy smile on his features, and decides this is a good place to spend eternity at, even without her.
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iamanartichoke · 9 months ago
Another totally unprompted ask, on the assumption that you are definitely no longer in need of them… another thing I’m trying to work out about Loki characterisation in preparation for perpetrating fic torture on him is how suicidal the poor sod is most of the time. This is another thing I’ve seen referred to a lot but only in passing. Though obviously this is a pretty triggery topic, so ignore if you want.
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I am always in need of totally unprompted asks, otherwise I just assume no one wants to talk to me lmao
So, hoo boy. I have been mulling over this for, apparently, three days now bc there's just ... there's a lot to unpack here. Putting under a cut for obviously triggery content and also for length bc fml.
In my opinion, the response to "how suicidal is Loki most of the time" is "very, but whether or not he wants to do anything about it varies from moment to moment" (see what I did there? I'll see myself out). In other words, I have always had a headcanon that Loki is consistently, passively suicidal. This is a headcanon that comes straight from TDW, bc I'm certain that Loki never had any intention of surviving their mission. And that could be a whole other post, really, but the point is that even though this is a TDW-centric headcanon, I have come to adopt it as applying to Loki in general as well, not just in those specific circumstances.
When I say passively suicidal, I mean that Loki is just sort of ambivalent about the value of his own life. He feels like he doesn't deserve to be alive, and feels like there's little point in being alive. Which - I don't mean to sound all gloom and doom, like, poor uwu emo Loki (and I kinda hate that I have to pause to disclaim that, no, I don't just have a fixation on Loki being depressed for funsies/the aesthetic/whatever); I think that this mindset stems from really complicated places that I'm not sure I can articulate, but I will try.
I view Loki as someone who suffers from a severe inferiority complex, and I feel like it stems from being abandoned as an infant. Loki's life started with a traumatic event and, even if he doesn't remember the event itself, the feelings he experienced stayed in his subconscious. Feelings of loss, of fear, of despair and abandonment, of suffering - these are all feelings that burrowed into his bones and lived there for his entire life, feelings that colored how Loki viewed himself as a person as well as how he compared to the people around him.
Keep in mind that Loki didn't know he was abandoned until the events of Thor 1, obviously. We don't really know how old Loki is, in human years, but I have always assumed that he and Thor were at least adults (not teenagers), maybe the equivalent of early twenties - and the reason I bring that up is because it means Loki made it all the way to adulthood carrying the weight of a trauma that he did not remember or even knew had happened, so to him, there was no real reason for how wrong he felt. There was no explanation for the feelings of loss, of neglect, of fear. So on top of struggling with those feelings, Loki was also burdened with the alienation that comes with wondering why one can't just be like everyone else, why one can't just "snap out" of depression, why one's sense of self-worth has always been lacking.
So imagine what it's like to grow up as Loki. He was traumatized as an infant. The trauma has been with him his entire life, along with the confusion/alienation of not understanding why he feels the way that he does, and then on top of that, his basic personality lends itself toward introspection and isolation, so he likely felt even further removed from Thor and from his peers. Loki's too smart for his own good, and he's got an enormous capacity to feel and I feel like this is a combination that works against him as much as it does for him, bc it probably means he spent a lot of time examining himself and identifying all of his perceived flaws - and then berating himself for said flaws.
People with depression are probably pretty familiar with the bully that lives in your head, the one who is always there to remind you that you're stupid, or ugly, or that nobody likes you, or that you have nothing of value to contribute to anyone, etc. Loki's no different; he's got that bully in his head, too. Add onto this the fact that his brother is literally perfect, that he feels his father doesn't love him (or love him as much), that his interests in things like magic are looked down on in his culture, and that he's a prince (meaning that along with the privilege comes pressure, and being in the public eye, knowing that everyone around him is comparing him to Thor as much as he compares himself to Thor, well.) and you have a total clusterfuck of a mindset, and Loki's been existing inside of that clusterfuck for nearly all of his life.
I always go back to the quote where, when filming I think the vault scene, Kenneth Branagh directs Tom by saying, "This is the moment where the thin steel rod holding your brain together snaps." And it's such a significant moment for Loki bc this is where it all crumbles for him, learning the truth, but I also fixate on the "thin steel rod" part of the quote bc that's not how one would describe a healthy, stable person's mind. The implication, to me, has always been that Loki wasn't that stable to start with due to his general upbringing, his internal struggles, and his personality, so of course the devastation of learning he's adopted, and Jotun, would send him over the edge. One doesn't go from zero to 60; one doesn't fall over the edge unless they were balancing fairly close to it in the first place. And to me, the "thin steel rod" basically equals the aforementioned clusterfuck of a mindset.
THE POINT IS. (Holy shit, I ramble.) This is the foundation on which I'm basing my headcanon that Loki neither values his life nor feels as if he even deserves to live it - bc his default mindset is one of inferiority, of loss, of pain. And I think that going from being a general unstable person pre-canon to being passively suicidal post-canon is a thing that happened because, somewhere between the vault in Thor 1 and the dungeons in TDW, Loki just stopped caring.
Life is exhausting for everyone, but even moreso when your mental load becomes more than you can carry. Loki is exhausted. His experience is that things just keep getting worse and worse for him - he's never been valued, he's always been found wanting. He discovers that he was literally thrown away as an infant, unwanted and left to die, and things haven't gotten much better for him since then. Everything that can go wrong, does go wrong. His plans spin out of control. He's unable to prove his worth and his value and when he is, in fact, rejected, he literally tries to kill himself (only to survive and end up in an even worse situation).
It all just continually goes downhill, and Loki is fucking exhausted. He's done. He has no hope that anything is ever going to change - he will never be valued or even seen, he's unable to connect to anyone, he has no family (aside from Thor, but their relationship is so fraught with pain). As far as he's concerned, his life has been nothing but a waste since he was born and if no one else values it, why should he?
So - passively suicidal. He places no value on his life, and doesn't shy away from situations that could cost him his life. It's possible that the only reason he's not actively suicidal is bc his previous attempt not only failed but led to such a horrible situation that he's probably too afraid to intentionally seek out death again. He doesn't want to fail and end up worse off for it.
And - not that you asked this in particular, but - my biggest disappointment in the series is that none of what I've just written is addressed in a satisfying way (to me). That is, we don't get any real explicit acknowledgement of the trauma of Loki's abandonment as a baby or how that affected his mental health growing up; we don't get to explore how devastated he was to learn of his adoption; we don't ever see him reconcile his ingrained belief that jotuns are monstrous savages with the fact that he is jotun. He says "I betrayed everyone I loved, but I'm different now" and we're supposed to infer what he means without Loki actually articulating why he feels that he's the only one who should be held responsible for all these things that had happened or what "I've changed" even means to him (aside from not betraying Sylvie).
I would have liked to see these things addressed for a lot of reasons, but one of those reasons is that I would want to see how Loki comes to terms with all of his issues and his pain enough that he stops being passively suicidal. We never get to see that; after TDW, the time that passes allows for Loki to kinda chill, resulting in the Ragnarok version, but if there was any real healing or recovering going on, it was happening off-screen, with the audience expected to just go with "yeah Loki was going through it for awhile but he's kinda better now."
Furthermore, much of what I've written here is based on prime Loki's development through TDW, but doesn't account for series Loki's split from that timeline nor the theme of "Lokis survive" that's so prevalent in the series. So I don't think the "passively suicidal" headcanon is really appropriate for series Loki but, at the same time, I'd like to have seen why. I'd like to have seen Loki learning to value his life, or where the "we survive" mindset comes from, since that's not really been a thing before now. (Out of universe, I suspect it comes from the context of Loki just not dying whenever he tries to, but since TDW and IW haven't happened, and Loki didn't intend to survive his fall from the bifrost, framing Loki as an innate survivor doesn't really make sense, but to be fair, I'm just being picky.)
So, yeah. I'm not saying Loki doesn't experience growth or development in the series, I'm just saying that his arc left much unsaid and, furthermore, framing his growth as "wanting a throne to not wanting a throne" without addressing that Loki doesn't actually want the power of the throne, he wants the value and self-worth he associates with the throne, is - well, again, unsatisfying. Not bad, but it leaves viewers like me wanting bc we're cognizant of how much more could have been done.
I ... am going to end this now. This is probably nonsensical and all over the place, so I'm very sorry, and I'm sure this is why I don't get meta-starter asks lmfao bc no one's out here trying to read my dissertation submission for a Ph.D in Loki, but well, sometimes it just be like that.
Thank you for the ask and the opportunity to ramble.
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thelokiway · 10 months ago
(Far away from) Home
The One Who Remains’ golden eyes overlooked the great hall of the TVA. Not the time keepers, not even fake ones.  “Look man, calm down. I know all this is crazy.” Mobius’ voice behind Loki didn’t do anything to actually calm him down. In fact, it only fueled his panic and his definite wish to run. Now. As far away as possible. 
Loki turned back around, unable to wipe shock and confusion from his face. There was no time to explain, no time to get to know this version of his friend. A friend who didn’t even know his face. What did that mean? That here there wasn’t even a Loki that looked like him? That here... there wasn’t even a Loki? 
Loki felt the tension in his body rise, flight or fight? In the distance he saw three TVA soldiers approach them. Flight!  The Asgardian turned around and ran. He ran all the way back through the library, through the entrance hall that was filled with people who looked at least as confused and scared as he was. He ran back through the corridors until he reached the room where he had arrived in. The one Sylvie had sent him to. 
Sylvie...  Panting Loki looked around for a tempad. Well, there wasn’t one lying around here. And why should it? Why did he come back here anyway? She wouldn’t help him. That much was clear now. She never trusted him. But that wasn’t the worst: She also didn’t trust herself. In all her anger and pain she didn’t trust her tears and she didn’t trust her own need for company and friendship. She had pushed him away. Literally and figuratively. Was she ok? Was she alive?
“No!” Loki brushed his fingers through his hair and forced himself to stop running in circles. “Stop!” He told himself the exact same thing he had just told her. “Stop. Breathe. Get out. Escape.” It helped. Giving himself orders did indeed help. Maybe because he was the only person he would ever accept orders from. He had to get his hands on a tempad. That much was clear. With it he could go wherever he wanted to… In a newly forming multiverse that he didn’t even know how to navigate. The TVA’s technology was made to navigate one timeline. Not billions. “Breathe…” If there were billions of timelines and each with an equally large number of possible versions of those particular timelines, oh no, there was no way whatsoever that he could find his own again. His Earth. His Mobius. His Sylvie. His… Sylvie. “Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t. No. Just get out. Go…” But where to? Infinite possibilities. And for once that was not a figure of speech. The sheer size of this new multiverse made even a god tremble in awe.
And so Loki ran. He ran to one of the supply rooms where the agency kept weapons and tempads. There, waiting just around the corner he overpowered an older male soldier and stole his tempad. Again he ran. This time while trying to figure out where to go. WHEN to go.
“There he is! Freeze!” Mobius. And a handful of agents, one with that dreaded collar in his hand. Oh no… absolutely not. Loki’s fingers flew over the controls of the tempad. He typed in the first coordinates he could think of and could just hear Mobius’ frustrated cry when he disappeared through the white portal.
“Breathe…” Now he could. And he did. Loki stood on the shore of the great city in the center of Asgard and looked out over the ocean. There was Heimdall’s Hall where he guarded the rainbow bridge. Yes. It was right there. It was beautiful, actually. Behind him the towers of the city climbed into the sky as if no one and nothing could ever harm them, proud confidence. Unshakable hubris. This Asgard was in its bloom. The Asgardians here seemed to live in peace, more concerned with the harmony of the nine realms than with their own survival.
Loki blinked into the sun and thought of all the people he had known here. Loved here. Betrayed here. Odin, of course. Much hated King of Asgard. Thor who with his friends the Avengers had just handed Loki a royal asswhooping. His mother who had always loved him just the way he was. Of course Loki had no idea whether these people even existed here, or whether they felt about him just like the ones he remembered.  It didn’t matter. Not right now.  Because he DID remember what the Asgardian sun felt like. He DID remember the smell of the ocean mixed with a myrad of exotic plants. He DID remember the sheer MIGHT of this place. 
He was home.  
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ladyfluff · 10 months ago
I’m so invested in your writing. So I picture your Loki saying how he’s happily married after Mobius accuses him of having feelings for Sylvie. But of course Mobius will say something like “But she’s supposed to be with another version of you!”
OW! Also, curious...
(cause its all time travel and things, i get really confused so I'm just gonna make up things as they go on, just to make it more fun, you probably mean that the wife is supposed to be with the loki that our loki would later become in the films but my brain shorted out lol)
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Countless questions, no answers. Loki tried to fish them out of Mobius but he just overrode him, talked over him with no intention of answering. If Loki could, he would reach over the table and slap him. To think that Mobius himself was a variant? There had to be something more going on with this place, for every single employee here to be a variant? There must be hundreds, thousands or perhaps millions of erased existences here. That might explain Mobius' strange affinity for those jet ski magazines now that Loki thought about it. It was odd to feel this much sympathy for someone who effectively captured him and is currently keeping him captive, Loki normally made it a rule to not feel bad for those types of people.
''Where is Sylvie, what have you done with her?!''
Mobius slams the file on the table, as grateful as Loki was for getting off Lamentis alive there were questions. How did the TVA find them in a nexus event? When Loki showed Mobius Pompeii it showed no readings even though Loki had acted out during the event. So why Lamentis? Why and how did they find them there?
''You like her! Look at your eyes!''
Like her? Sylvie? Sure, Loki cared for her. She was all he had left now, there was this bond between them. He couldn't quite pinpoint as to what it was but he couldn't replace the woman he already left behind. Y/N was and still is his wife, no matter the time and reality. Loki wouldn't hesitate if he saw her now, he'd grab her and their son, just run for the rest of time if needed. Loki just wanted to go home, where he'd find her sitting in their room, no doubt stitching up old clothes. Like she normally does, ''waste not'' as she put it. Loki glared at Mobius.
''I'm happily married for your information-''
''But she's supposed to be with another version of you!''
Loki's brows furrowed, another version of him? What? Mobius just stared at him, he seemed so agitated. Give the situation, sure, Loki could understand why he would be but he needed to rewind a little.
That statement made no sense, from all he's learned about the TVA and its infamous time lords; this made no sense. Why would she be meant for another Loki when she was married to him? Loki leans back in his chair, it made no sense. Y/N had married him well over a couple of centuries ago, they were both of age and didn't hesitate. He grew up around her, his Y/N. Followed her around, yearned for her, he married her and had a child with her. How was she not supposed to be with another version of him if there was only one of him in that timeline? Did the TVA screw something up? What?
''I thought you said-''
''Loki, she-''
Loki stood up, Mobius didn't bother using his little remote control to reverse him back into his seat. Loki needed to get this right, how could this even be? They've been together for so long and now this?
''You said every single event in my life was planned out and yet my wife isn't supposed to be MY wife?''
There must've been a mistake made if this was the case. The TVA being as efficient as they claim to be, would've spotted this mistake the moment it happened and they would be quick to erase it. Wouldn't they? TVA doesn't make mistakes, so why leave this mistake uncorrected for so long? Loki has been around for over a thousand years, been married a couple of hundred and had a child. Why leave a woman in his timeline when that woman isn't supposed to be there in the first place? Mobius' jaw clenched, what was he hiding? What did all this mean?
''The woman who had my son isn't supposed to be my wife?''
Loki was confused, who was Y/N meant for?
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starport-seven-five · 22 days ago
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So this has been on my mind for some time now, and you have my apologies if you’ve heard this rant before because I’ve said it so many times in conversations.
But this scene, IMO, is so often misrepresented by shippers and fans on all points of the spectrum. Everyone is entitled to their interpretation, of course, but there seems to be two main camps (that, naturally, split along shipping lines, for the most part).
You’ve got the anti-Mobius (mostly Sylki shipping) crowd just saying for the millionth time how cruel Mobius is acting toward Loki, proving that all of the kindness he’s shown him up to this point has been fabricated and calculated.
And you’ve got a good chunk of the Lokius crowd raving about how Mobius is jealous of Sylvie and/or hurt that Loki seems interested in her.
I think these both miss the mark.
Besides the fact that the romanticized jealousy is just not my jam at all…
I see Mobius coming to terms with his entire known existence being a lie.
Think about the scenes that bookend this one.
First, Loki tells him the TVA is lying, and he’s a variant. Mobius is immediately uncomfortable, clearly considering it seriously. He even seems as though he might be going to look for confirmation, but when he returns, it’s as if something has switched on in his head.
After, he DOES go in search of confirmation, and is finally firm in his belief that Loki was telling the truth.
In between, Mobius doubles down hard on that TVA dogma, as so many do when they’re just becoming disillusioned about something they’ve previously believed. It’s incredibly frightening, and also a blow to one’s own psyche, to think that you could have been duped into something on such a large scale. Going hard with Loki’s interrogation is a last ditch effort, a way to try to cling to that shred of belief in the TVA as it’s all coming down around him. If he can get Loki to admit he was lying, if he can do his job like he’s supposed to, then he’s back in charge of himself; no one has messed with his head; he wasn’t so weak minded (in his own thinking) that he went along with this for how many centuries? Millennia? Who knows?
Of course, it ultimately doesn’t work, as it so rarely does. The illusion is ripped away and when he admits the truth, things really get rolling.
Just my two cents.
But let me know what you think!
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9worldstales · 10 months ago
MCU Loki: Why I fear they failed to deliver what they promised
At this point I’m kind of confused by who the “Loki” series is trying to reach or which is the goal/message they’re trying to pass along.
They had tried to intrigue assorted audience but, if you ask me, the series has often failed to deliver what it seemed to promise.
Of course I might be wrong. Or maybe I'm not seeing another type of audience the series aimed and managed to reach.
When the series started I wanted to keep a positive mentality and hope whatever seemed not to work would be fixed along the way or have a reason for existing that I just wasn't seeing because I hadn't seen the full story yet.
However, after 5 episodes I'm starting to lose hope the series will make a genuine effort to reach the fans at whom it seemed to aim.
"I think it's the struggle with identity, who you are, who you want to be. I'm really drawn to characters who are fighting for control. Certainly you see that with Loki over the first 10 years of movies, he's out of control at pivotal parts of his life, he was adopted and everything and that manifest itself through anger and spite towards his family." [Loki's Struggle With His Identity Confirmed To Be A Focus Of His Disney+ Series]
What was it about Loki as a character that attracted you? He’s just fun, for one. He has a very playful sense of humor about him. I like how he never quite lets you know what he’s thinking. Beyond that, what I connect to about him is the same thing the legions of fans do, which is his humanity and his vulnerability. This is a guy who—yes, on the one hand, he was the prince of Asgard, seems like a nice life—but his father, in fact, killed his actual birth father, adopted him, lied to him about his heritage and parentage his entire life, he was forced to live in the shadow of his oafish older brother who was born to be king. He’s experienced a lot of trauma, and I think that what he’s looking for is just a little bit of control over his life. Which he feels like maybe he’s never quite had. That’s something I think we can all relate with. [From Loki to Doctor Strange and Star Wars, Michael Waldron Is the New Franchise Whisperer]
Let’s be honest, the audience for the “Loki” series is not really meant to be Marvel movies old time fans who enjoyed “Thor” and “The Avengers”, made countless Meta analyzing Loki’s behaviour and who wanted answers about what happened to Loki prior to “The Avengers” or wanted to see Loki’s family terrible dynamics be discussed, or at least to see explored the wrong dynamics of Loki’s interracial adoption (he’s taken away from his planet, the truth is hidden from him, his look is changed to disguise him as an Asgardian, nothing is done against the racial hate for the Jotuns at which Loki is exposed, even witnessing it from his brother) or talk how much in control of himself Loki was during “The Avengers” (okay, the web said the sceptre manipulated Loki, but what about acknowledging that in his own series? It doesn’t have to come from Loki who had no idea he was manipulated but someone could mention ‘think yourself lucky here the stones don’t work, they’ve the nasty tendency to manipulate people’).
The series has avoided digging into all that as much as they could.
Even when Loki talks with Sylvie, the most we get is a small big about how Frigga was awesome in his eyes and taught him magic, but this isn’t meant to explain any of the issues Loki had with his family, it just make Sylvie feel bad because she can’t remember her adoptive mother, as for the D.B. Cooper born out of a bet with Thor, yeah, fun but completely random. What’s meant to be the message about family dynamics here, that it was the bets between Thor and Loki that caused Loki to decide to conquer Earth? Or what about the Sif loop? Is it there to push on Loki the blame of his poor relation with Sif?
No, clearly not.
In regard to Loki the Frigga flashback is there to remark he had a loving and supportive family while the other two are there to have Loki admit he is ‘a mischievous scamp’, ‘a horrible person’ and ‘a narcissist’.
To put it in Classic Loki’s words: ‘Damn it! Animals, animals! We lie and we cheat, we cut the throat of every person who trusts us, and for what? Power. Glorious power. Glorious purpose! We cannot change. We're broken, every version of us. Forever. And whenever one of us dares try to fix themselves, they're sent here to die.’
In short it’s all Loki’s fault if he does bad, nothing happened to him that could have messed him up, he’s just a horrible person… however…
"Loki is an a**, and that makes my life as a writer, easy." ... "Due to the trauma in Loki’s life, I would even [accept a story] in which he is committed to being all bad." [Michael Waldron on Loki: He’s an a**. That makes things easy]
Considering the series is trying to pin SOLELY on Loki his wrongdoing, completely skipping the toxic way in which he was raised you might think they want to paint him as an evil, psychopath who was just born bad.
But no, that’s not the intention, we see it from the start.
Loki is given a quick briefing on how his beloved family loved him despite him hurting them, a briefing that contains false information which would work if we accept the briefing as manipulative but, at this point I’m not so sure that was the author’s intent. The Doylist purpose of the briefing is clearly to show the audience how Loki cares for his family, how he still has feelings, feels pain at the idea Frigga and Odin died and wish to make up with his brother.
It’s not just they loved him and did nothing wrong toward him, it’s also he who loved them and didn’t mean to harm them. That’s why we’re fed that damn discourse about Loki sending the Dark Elves to kill Frigga, because the series wants to remark that no, Loki didn’t want to kill his family, he loved them.
Tom Hiddleston used to say what Loki is came from a place of pain but the series didn’t explore that place of pain… it just gave him more pain and not just in episode 1. Episode 2 has him discovering Asgard is destroyed, episode 3 has him remembering Frigga, episode 4 shows him believing Sylvie die and watching Mobius being pruned. He doesn’t cry in Ep 5, episode 5 wants us to truly feel bad for Sylvie, not for him, but there’s a lot of bitterness from Classic Loki who commits a heroic suicide so you might say we get a sad Loki anyway.
And this also works as a shock to make him change his mind about his ‘glorious purposes’. Sorta, with Thor reminding us he’s not so bad and Loki explaining his behaviour as “I don't enjoy hurting people. I... I don't enjoy it. I do it because I have to, because I've had to. Because it's part of the illusion. It's the cruel, elaborate trick conjured by the weak to inspire fear.”
Plot-wise, this is completely useless.
The show will prove Sylvie is not Loki and has completely different motivations and Mobius, being an expert in Variants, should know.
What’s more why would Mobius care if Loki enjoys hurting people or not?
His goal is to capture Sylvie with Loki’s help. The most he should care about is how to keep Loki loyal to him, not if Loki has fun hurting people or not which, in fact, is a knowledge that won’t be used in his investigation.
No, this is here for the viewers, to tell them Loki isn’t a sadistic, evil villain, he’s someone weak who tries to scare others so as not to look weak. As Mobius will put in ‘a scared little boy, shivering in the cold’ who has an ‘insecure need for validation’.
What’s more?
The show will try his hardest to establish he’s not even competent.
Let’s talk of him as a fighter.
In the movies Loki is a competent fighter and side material establish he’s pretty strong, definitely much more than a human.
In “The Avengers” we see Captain America needs Iron Man’s help to beat him and, anyway, Loki’s plan was to be captured. Loki manages to walk away on his feet when Coulson hits him with that superspecial weapon and it’ll take him to be Hulk smashed after a fight with Thor and a meeting with an explosive arrow of Hawkeye before he can’t fight any longer.
This doesn’t happen in the “Loki” series.
Loki gets beaten up by various people in 4 episodes, preferably women (B-15, the people possessed by Sylvie, the guards on the train, Sif). You might say in episode 5 he’s not but actually Classic Loki is the one who gets swallowed by Alioth and our Loki instead survives because he has Sylvie supporting him as, on his own he couldn’t even distract Alioth.
Let’s talk of him as a wizard.
He can use magic, impressive magic but… it serves him mostly nothing. In the TVA his magic doesn’t work. Outside of it is mostly useless. It doesn’t help win fights. The Tempad he caused to disappear gets broken. To beat Alioth they needs enchantment, not his own magic. What’s more, when they’ve to go on the train his disguise wouldn’t have worked without Sylvie’s enchantment and, if this wasn’t enough, he got drunk, removed the disguise and wasn’t even able to make tickets appear.
Classic Loki too, with his impressive illusions is ultimately a distraction. Alioth tears easily through his illusions which aren’t even solid.
Let’s talk of him as a planner.
All Loki will accomplish is to escape from the Time theatre for a brief period in episode 1 and figure out Sylvie hides in apocalypses in episode 2. The rest of his plans fails or are not plan or are mocked over and not even put into practice.
Let’s talk about him as a manipulator with a silver tongue.
He can’t even persuade Mobius when he’s telling him the truth, Mobius dismisses it as a lie due to ‘cockroach's survival mechanism’.
And psychologically?
He’s just someone who crave attention because he’s a narcissist scared of being alone. Not a psychopath.
Loki is not meant to be a dangerous, evil, psychopath villain in this series, he’s a not serious man, a clown, a scared little boy in need of attention, a narcissist who needs to be loved.
Welcome to cartoon villain Loki, this Loki isn’t the Variant of “The Avengers” Loki, he’s the Variant of “Avengers Assemble”Loki… only he’s even less competent than him.
"That's a lot of Infinity Stones. That's true but they are useless there in the TVA, so I don't know. Is that gun loaded or not? We'll see..." [Loki Writer Comments On Whether TVA’s Infinity Stones Will Return In MCU]
“We had to create an insane institutional knowledge of how time travel would work within the TVA so the audience never has to think about it again. It was a lot of drawings of squiggly timelines.” Marvel already made its case for how time travel works in Avengers: Endgame, but that, Waldron points out, “is the way the Avengers understand it.” With a TV show it’s a little different. “I was always very acutely aware of the fact that there’s a week between each of our episodes and these fans are going to do exactly what I would do, which is pick this apart. We wanted to create a time-travel logic that was so airtight it could sustain over six hours. There’s some time-travel sci-fi concepts here that I’m eager for my Rick and Morty colleagues to see.” [How the Man Behind LokiIs Shaping Marvel’s Phase 4 and Beyond]
BC: The TVA is there to clean everybody up? MW: Yeah, Avengers: Endgame… that's how The Avengers understand time travel. 'Loki,' episode one, is how the TVA explains time travel to Loki and we're certainly building on what's come before us. [Loki: Michael Waldron On Gender Fluidity, Mephisto, Time Travel & More]
It’s true “Loki” is focusing on a new corner of the MCU but it interconnects very poorly with the movies before it.
Although Loki escaped with the Tesseract... it just dismisses completely the Infinity Stones.
Despite talking a lot about timelines and creating branching realities it waved away the whole plot of "Avengers: Endgame" as apparently supposed to happen even though it should have created branching realities.
We see Renslayer wave away how the Avengers went in the past causing the Tesseract to end up in Loki’s hands... and all the other things the Avengers did that affected the past goes unmentioned.
Bruce meeting the Ancient, Thor meeting his mother and taking away Thor’s hammer, Rocket being seen as he steals the reality stone from Jane, Tony stealing a suitcase and damaging the place in which the Tesseract was kept then meeting Howard Stark, 4 flacons of Pyn particles missing, an alarm given to the military bases, how Steve managed to bring back the sceptre if that timeline was pruned, how a timeline handled being without Thanos and Co as they went in the future or how they clearly didn’t bring the orb back the second they took it as Nebula remained unconscious there and nobody came and when she woke up Thanos could get her. It didn’t even explain why Steve remaining with Peggy didn’t change anything.
It's not that the audience has all explained... it's that they were told to dismiss it as 'meant to happen' and that was it.
What's more, the TVA apparently didn't list a finger to stop 2014 Thanos from going in the future and causing Tony Stark's death.
As if this wasn't enough, “Loki” just skips any possible connection with the movies, even hands Loki false information about them (he lead the Dark Elves to his mother when Loki had no idea the Kurse was a Dark Elf and they would have found her anyway as they were searching for the Aether which Malekith could sense, he’s born solely to cause pain and suffering and death, overlooks how he saved Jane twice or helped the Asgardian escape Hela) and never discusses them again.
Even with Classic Loki, who’s a Variant of “Avengers: Infinity War” Loki, they don’t talk about what happened after Loki’s supposed dead, apparently hinting it was better if he died, nor explain how Loki knew Thor survived.
Let’s make a quick experiment.
Everyone, let’s name all the characters we remember which appeared in more than 1 episode of “Loki” for more than one minute.
We’ve, of course, Loki, Mobius, B-15, Renslayer, Sylvie, C-20 and Miss Minute.
5 females versus 2 males.
What’s more, females are not sexualized, they remains completely dressed, they’re clearly not there to attract male gazes, they’re represented as strong, dangerous, in control, something archived often by showing them beating males either physically or intellectually or in rank.
It seems promising. At first.
Is there someone who’s sexualized?
The “Loki” series takes care to offer us Tom Hiddleston naked.
So since there’s an abundance of females in the cast and Tom Hiddleston is shown naked is it aiming at a female audience?
Very, very likely but… but how’s then handled all this?
When Loki is seen undressed he’s not in a situation of power, like Thor who’s twice shows half naked in his movies but because he’s changing/washing and perfectly comfortable in showing his body and once in a situation which could be a male forbidden fantasy, to have many women massage your naked body, no, he’s shown as he’s powerless while being stripped by a machine. Clearly not a male power fantasy, more like a male nightmare.
And, in a totally not surprising way, pictures of this scene were spread by many female fans because it was aimed at them… though a part of them, was also honestly appalled at seeing this scene in contest, finding the forced stripping humiliating and degrading.
Sure, a naked Tom Hiddleston makes a nice eye-candy but this wasn’t how Loki’s many fans wanted to see Loki naked.
But let’s talk of female representation here, since the show seems to be interested in female audience… only who even though this was the representation women wanted doesn’t understand much of women representation in the first place.
For start because women here are all the same type of woman.
Strong fighters who’re in control and confident, with no real characterization beyond this to speak of despite the large amount of screen time.
Renslayer is an ex-hunter who can fight one on one against Sylvie and who clearly has the position of power she has because she was good as a hunter and shows her abilities in fighting after that Sylvie had beaten 2 guards at the same time. B-15 is introduced by beating Loki and is the commander of a squad. C-20 is another commander and, albeit possessed, can dispose of a part of her squad members.
Do I need to spend words on how Sylvie is depicted as this awesome fighter who has learnt to fight by herself, can keep at bay more than 1 Minuteman, can use a sword, has learnt enchantment on her own and is feared by all the TVA? Do I?
And it’s awesome to have women who are strong fighters in positions of command/power/control… but why women has to be represented as just that?
Even when they add a female as an one episode cameo, it's Sif, beating the hell out of Loki. And what about the Lady in Lamentis 1 who was too old to be strong but managed to blast away both Loki and Sylvie seeing through their deceptions?
Even the harmless Miss Minute can avoid being hit by Loki and gets she has to pretend to do researches to stall Sylvie and save Renslayer.
Women kick asses here… but that’s all they’re good for.
And so we get to Sylvie, who is the superior Loki Variant… because she’s female.
Kid Loki: You're different. Why? Loki: No, I'm not, you see? I'm the same, really. I'm the same as all of you. Have any of you met a woman Variant of us? Classic Loki: Sounds terrifying. Loki: Oh, she is. But that's kind of what's great about her. She's different. She's not trying to take over the TVA, she's trying to take it down. And she needs me. Now, you said Alioth is what keeps us here. You said it's a living thing. You said it's a shark. Well, if it lives, it dies. So I'm gonna kill the shark. I'm gonna kill Alioth, and I could use all the help I can get.
That’s what Loki preaches to his fellow Lokis who think a woman Loki would be terrific.
I mean, they’ve an alligator Loki, a POC Loki, but the one who has to be different is the female Loki. Because being female is a character trait.
Mobius: Okay. I feel like I'm always looking up to you. I like it. It's appropriate. [Ep 1]
Basically females in the “Loki” series are all representation of the Action girl trope and aren’t even different representation of said trope. I mean, “The Avengers” have 5 actions boy who’re clearly as different as they could be. Girls can be represented as different too, if they really aim at young audience they can take good old “Sailor Moon” as an example. 5 action girls who are strong and determinate AND DIFFERENT, more than just someone who kicks the adversary away.
And it’s not like they don’t know how to characterize people in a different way.
Mobius is an analyst who shows sympathetic traits toward the Variants and a certain level or intelligence. U-92 and D-90 are hunters who are shown to held Variants in little regard (U-92 wanted to attack the boy they found in the church, D-90 mistreated the scared people in the shelter). Casey is an harmless and naïve guy who had never seen a fish. The guy who made Loki sign the papers about what he said seemed emotionless but he clearly loved cats as not only he had one but on his cup there was also the image of a cat. Martin is clearly a bossy daddy’s son, who think too high of himself to the point he can’t respect rules. The boy in the church, despite thinking Sylvie was a demon, accepted and ate food she gave him and remained in the place despite the crime. He’s clearly more brave than he looked like but he’s also naïve as he easily trusted ‘the demon’ and Mobius.
What’s C-20 character trait when she gets described by Sylvie?
Sylvie: Yeah. She was just a regular person on Earth. Loki: A regular person? Sylvie: Loved margaritas.
She’s a regular person who loves margaritas. Liking a drink is not a character trait!
There’s a more diverse female representation in “Thor” than in “Loki”.
In “Thor” we’ve Frigga, queen of Asgard, loving mother and wife who’s powerless to erase Thor’s banishment. We’ve Sif, a dangerous and loyal warrior. We’ve Jane, the amazing scientist with a lot of enthusiasm. We’ve Darcy, who’s funny and who seems focused mostly on herself but who, when the city is attacked, worried to save all the animals at the pet store.
But maybe the one who gets the worst treatment is the supposed heroine, Sylvie, because the poor girl is turned into a Mary Sue.
In case someone isn’t familiar with the term:
“The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye colour, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing. She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favourite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series.” [tvtropes.org]
So let’s see how she fits this checklist:
1) She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye colour: Sylvie painted her hair blonde even though the Lokis are supposed to be black haired
2) has a similarly cool and exotic name: She is the only Loki Variant who has changed her name from Loki to Sylvie.
3) She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting: Awesome at fighting she can enchant people, an ability the Lokis don’t posses, that she magically learnt on her own and that is necessary in the story. Also she figured out how a Tempad worked BEFOREseeing it in action.
4) She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing: No flaws, all her plans involve fighting and brute force is no substitute for diplomacy and guile, which could be a flaw… if it wasn’t for the fact that the series will prove Sylvie can plan just fine without using fighting and brute strength and also be successful at it.
5) She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story: She was taken by the TVA when she was younger than Kid Loki but managed to escape them and had to live alone and on the run till then.
6) The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting: Loki, who has never loved anyone, falls for her, Mobius saves her and apologizes to her, B-15, who used to look down at Variants, basically asks her what should they do and is shown admiring her, the Lokis don’t criticize her plan, Classic Loki dies to save her, everyone views her as the superior Loki Variant.
7) if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal: Renslayer, the hunter who has arrested her, is currently playing the part of the antagonist who’s fascist and believes in a murderous, lying cult.
8) She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favourite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc.: She’s the Variant and love interest of the titular character.
9) Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series: Loki, the title character, has conveniently been turned into someone who’s a weak fighter and incapable of planning which Sylvie has to save by enchanting guards or giving him her sword or pruning herself or teaching him how to enchant and coming up with all the plans.
Now all she needs in order to be a perfect Mary Sue is to know how to sing well as Mary Sue usually do this as well, though I’m sure she can do it because Loki could so she surely can.
Sylvie is amazing, Loki himself said so:
Loki: No. We may lose. Sometimes painfully. But we don't die. We survive. I mean, you did. You were just a child when the TVA took you, but you nearly took down the organization that claims to govern the order of time. You did it on your own. You ran rings around them. You're amazing!
There’s nothing inherently wrong in having a new female character who’s competent, for whom the hero falls and who changes him… if all this is built around a solid plot.
Think at “Iron Man”.
Tony Stark is, to quote Tony Stark himself a “genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist”.
It’s amazing, isn’t it? But the movie shows us why he’s that.
It spends time setting up his pedigree, how he inherited the money and intelligence from his father, how he was supported as he grew and studied becoming always a greater genius. Tony shows himself to be charming before seducing his first woman onscreen so that when he does it makes sense. His philanthropic activities are, at first, just mentioned but seems rooted in how his father was a hero who helped fighting Nazi and then they became his mission. He felt guilty he was a merchant of death and tried to make up for it.
Sylvie too could have a solid plot behind herself.
Instead than magically knowing what a TemPad does and how it works and managing to escape with it, she could have escaped with, let’s say, a hunter that discovered the truth and decided to rebel to the TVA or just had pity of her. Maybe another Mobius Variant who used to work at the TVA prior to Mobius and that, instead than an analyst was a hunter. She might have learnt fighting from him and then he too died and she was left alone.
Enchantment might have been an ability she might have learnt coming in contact with a mind stone. It could have been an occasion also to talk how mind stones can influence people negatively. Or it could have been taught to her by Frigga who, with a female daughter, decided to teach her a different type of magic than Loki.
Her past could have been explored more instead than being tragic for the sake of tragic. We might have seen her fall in love and either be betrayed or have to say goodbye to her loved one because that reality got pruned. We might have seen her being interested in males and females alike as she’s supposed to be interested in both.
She could have had discussions with Loki that weren’t just about Frigga or about how the TVA kidnapped her from Asgard, she escaped and from that point on she was always on the run, or about how love didn’t feel real, but more about how they were, how they felt, what hurt them and what made them happy, what they liked and what they disliked, their ideals and their fears, things that can built up a relation.
Loki basically fall for her because she’s on a mission for revenge instead than power and seems confident. That’s his reasoning.
She falls for Loki… because apparently he’s the person who spend time with her who praised her. That’s not a solid love story, that’s desperation.
SYlvie could have flaws, she could have learnt diplomacy or persuasion from Loki or could have something she lacks and Loki has so that they would complete each other.
And since the purpose was to have Sylvie and Loki fall for each other… they could have let Loki have characteristics that can motivate the exceptional heroine to fall in love for him PRIOR to him falling in love for her. He might be shown good at something, instead than just a clown.
Even if we say the real purpose of this series was to turn Sylvie into the protagonist, the heroine, a good Loki character was still needed to explain why this awesome girl would fall for him.
So okay, there will surely still be women who can see themselves in Sylvie and imagine they got Loki… and it’s not bad really… but I think we deserved more.
Long story short, yes, “Loki” has many females in its cast and this is meant to draw the female audience… but the representation is poor as almost all of the females have no character traits and Sylvie is just a Mary Sue with no realistic characterization.
A good female representation is diverse and solid. Women don't need to be born irrealistically perfect out of nothing to be good, they can inherith and grow and learn to be as such like any human being.
Last but not least…
BC: There is a lot of talk on social media about Loki being gender fluid. Wouldn't that actually be a natural fit for the character? MW: Yeah, I guess as, with all questions pertaining to that stuff, I think those answers, truly, are best experienced in the watching of the show, as opposed to me trying to answer them. Because it's just watching it and the way that's addressed and everything will just be more fulfilling. BC: Why do you think it's important that Loki is gender fluid? MW: I think that Loki is a character that a lot of fans see representation in. People that haven't felt represented before, and they see themselves in Loki and everything. So we want to do justice to the character, to who the character is in the comics and in Norse mythology as well. And you also … you know you want folks to feel represented, and everything. That's why it's important. It always has been. It comes from everybody on the creative team. [Loki: Michael Waldron On Gender Fluidity, Mephisto, Time Travel & More]
The series hugely spread the info that this Loki would be fluid and Bisexual. The news were welcomed with delight and it’s awesome how the series didn’t hesitate to put it on paper.
Loki being fluid was written for everyone to see, and Loki having male and female interests was spelled out for everyone to hear.
It’s all we got.
It had no relevance into the plot whatsoever, it’s just a random info we’re given.
Him being fluid was on a paper along with his other data like eye colour and birth planet.
Him being interested in males and females seems to be put there just to imply he tried a large amount of people before deciding love didn’t feel real.
Assuming the other Lokis too were fluid, they actually found terrific the idea of a woman Loki in a not positive way. They weren’t interested or asking for clarifications about what Loki meant.
Loki’s bisexuality doesn’t even get a side story, them sending Fandral to beat Loki instead than Sif because Loki cheated on him or something. I’m not upset Loki ended up with a female, this is one of the possibilities of a Bisexual person. I’m upset that this was used merely to attract the audience but then wasn’t explored. They could have said Asgard was open minded with it, or disapproved it so Loki had to keep it hidden, or it could have been Sylvie who discussed some experience in that regard.
We were told over and over it was a show about identity. We expected it to be explored instead we were just told ‘ah, by the way, Loki is bisexual, let’s move on.’ And that was all.
Having representation from an important Marvel character is always important, especially considering the shortage of representation. But honestly I expected more.
Many of the people who worked in “Loki” are fantastic actors. They worked hard for this series, I can see they tried their best.
The premises for the “Loki” series are interesting.
We get a Loki who hadn’t experienced most of what happened in the movies yet, we make him confront with someone who knows his life, the one he lived and the one he was meant to live and we also make him confront with Variations of himself.
Loki has the Tesseract and the TVA has plenty of infinity stones, we could explore them.
The TVA itself have a fascist organization that dictates people’s lives and murders whoever tries to do differently, that goes so far as to brainwash the people working in it, which mistreats and belittle the Variants and establish a manipulative cult around the Time-Keeper with elements of police brutality which could be very actual.
Time travelling was the plot of "Avengers: Endgame" they could have tied the movie to the series, esplore the why some time travels were allowed and some weren't or their effects.
There were references to plenty of awesome comics they could take inspiration from.
But unless it redeems itself with the last episode… well, so far it’s failing to deliver what it promised due to a really poor plot which doesn’t give the characters a chance to be themselves or to be characterized as they’ve no real story nor real differences to speak of.
They’re given more time than a movie as they’re a series… but that’s no good excuse for wasting said time.
I’m still hoping the last episode will be spectacular, that it’ll manage to erase the messes of the other 5… but, as of now I’m disappointed.
I’ll just keep my fingers crossed and hope they’ll surprise me.
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hellomynameisbisexual · 8 months ago
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Sylvie asks Loki if he has his eye on any princesses… or maybe a fellow prince. Loki confirms he’s had his eye on “a bit of both,” confirming him as the first openly bisexual character in a Marvel movie.
Bisexual representation matters regardless of gender, but for some, it was especially exciting to see a bisexual man in such a popular show. Studies suggest attitudes toward bisexual men are more negative than towards bisexual women, and being portrayed positively in media is known to foster positive interpretations of people with marginalized identities.
A 2013 Pew Research survey found that bisexual men faced less social acceptance than bisexual women, gay men, and lesbians. In the same survey, just 8 percent of LGBT adults felt there was even social acceptance of gay men.
These negative attitudes can result in real, devastating consequences. A 2019 Pew Research study found bisexual men are less likely to be “out” than bisexual women. Bisexual men also experience higher lifetime rates of mood and anxiety disorders compared to homosexual men. Those issues are compounded when the person experiences other marginalized identities, like being a person of color.
Michael Stokes, a licensed mental health counselor and certified sex therapist, tells Inverse, “one of the biggest issues bisexual men face is feeling misunderstood.”
Inverse spoke to seven bisexual men from across six different countries about being misunderstood, and misconceptions about bisexuality. They opened up about stigma, dealing with depression, anxiety, and alienation.
Critically, they also offer advice to men who might be questioning their own sexual orientation. Ultimately, they say, labels are just one part of the equation — what matters most is that you accept yourself and pursue relationships that make you happy, regardless of gender.
All the men Inverse spoke with agreed on the two biggest misconceptions about bisexual men. They are:
Luke,* a 38-year old in Chicago, tells Inverse he thinks some people believe bisexual men are “just greedy sluts.”
This is far from a harmless stereotype. The belief that bisexuality equates to promiscuity can stem from biphobia — hatred or fear of bisexuals. According to the San Francisco Human Rights Commission: “Often biphobia is based on inaccurate stereotypes, including associations with infidelity, promiscuity, and transmission of sexually transmitted diseases.”
Vance*, a 50-year-old in Australia, finds this attitude exists even within the LGBTQ+ community. He tells Inverse he’s gotten frustrated when partners won’t trust him to not cheat, and with members of the gay community who are judgmental.
“The latter is especially annoying, given the gay community has been railing against exactly that sort of marginalization for years,” Vance says.
For Ian*, a 30-something in the United Kingdom, the stereotype of the “slutty bisexual” is “absolute BS.” He tells Inverse, “Most people regardless of gender or sexuality just want to love and to be loved, and for many, that means finding [one] person who fulfills that.”
Though he is single now, he says, “If I find someone who will love me for everything I am, and I love just as much, then I’ve got everything I wanted.”
Of course, monogamy isn’t for everyone. Open relationships, polyamory, or just having lots of sex with different partners may be preferable for some people. And as long as sexual activity happens safely among consenting adults, who cares? What matters is that such behavior isn’t specific to any one sexual orientation.
This myth falls under the umbrella of “bi-erasure” or “bi invisibility.”
Jai*, a 23-year-old in India, tells Inverse, “people have such a binary view of everything they find it hard to understand that one could be bisexual and not gay or straight.”
“It is also always assumed that because we are into women as well and kind of straight passing — that we haven’t ever faced any discrimination,” he says. “And that’s very wrong.”
When bisexuality isn’t accepted as fully real and valid, it can be incredibly difficult for people struggling to figure out their own sexual orientation.
Drew*, a 27-year-old in Spain, says that for most of his teenage years he struggled with “internalized biophobia.”
“Because I had a preference for men, I ended up invalidating my attraction toward women because I thought I was just lying to myself,” he says.
It wasn’t until he talked to a gay friend who told him “female genitalia grossed him out” that Drew realized that’s not how he felt at all. That difference helped him realize that “the bisexual tag felt more truthful for me than the homosexual one.”
Jai had a similar experience. He had two tough years where he struggled knowing that he wasn’t gay because he was attracted to women but also knew he wasn’t straight.
“It did not occur to me for a very long time that I’m just bi. Because we are always told that you’re either straight or gay,” he explains.
Drew believes these binary attitudes keep some from coming out as bisexual.
“I just feel like if bisexuality was more visible and validated, more people would publicly identify as bisexual,” he says. “Now, identifying as either straight or gay is just easier — even if your sexual tendencies or behavior is actually bisexual.”
Not fitting into a binary when everyone else seems to think you should is “exhausting,” Jai says.
“It’s exhausting because to every single person that you let in about your sexuality, they ask these same old, stereotypical questions,” he says. These include:
Are you just gay and in denial?
Are you more into men or women?
Have you thought about who you want to end up with?
How do you know it’s not just a phase?
Because of this stubborn adherence to the binary, Jai says, “being bi means you almost have to come out again and again and deal with these exhausting questions each and every time.”
“All of it circles back to the lack of awareness that bi folks do exist and that sexuality isn’t binary but a whole wide spectrum,” he says.
Studies show bisexual people are at a greater risk of depression and anxiety than lesbian and gay men. Ensuring emotional hurdles can include:
All the men Inverse spoke with say they’ve often felt alienated from the wider LGBTQ community. Although sexual orientation exists on a spectrum, public perception of sexual orientation is often binary: you’re either gay or straight.
“For a long time, I only knew about homosexuality and heterosexuality,” says Marc, a 20-year-old man in Switzerland. “I was never able to identify with either of them.”
Several told Inverse that they frequently feel pushed into either the heterosexual or homosexual box.
Henry, a 27-year-old in Minneapolis, tells Inverse he gets the sense that many of his straight friends think of him as gay.
“They’re trying to be supportive, but they kind of lump me in with our gay friends, like, they’ll talk about women they find attractive only with each other, even though I’m attracted to women too,” he says.
It’s not always straight people doing the pushing, Luke says. There are similar issues in the LGBTQ community.
“Biphobia exists within the LGBTQ community,” he says. He’s experienced a lot of “toxic nonsense.” He’s felt like he’s had to prove he’s queer enough, or others thought he wasn’t queer enough.
This feeling of alienation among people who are bisexual is well documented in studies and by gender scholars.
Dan Cassino, a professor at Fairleigh Dickinson University who studies masculinity, agrees. He tells Inverse: “If you're a homosexual man, there is a community for you. If you’re heterosexual, there’s a community for you. But if you are a bisexual man, by definition, you do not fit neatly in either community.”
“The toxic gatekeeping and biphobia can lead to depression, anxiety, and loneliness,” Luke says.
Some bisexual people will go through “cycles” where sometimes they’re more attracted to men, other times they’re more attracted to women. Marc says this so-called “bi-cycling” can be challenging for potential partners, and for bisexuals who are struggling to find a partner.
“If one doesn‘t find a partner for a while, it is even more depressing than it is [for] a straight person since you have a lot more options, but still nobody who loves you,” he says. “For me personally, it is very hard to find men attractive or even fall in love with them, knowing that there is about a 95 percent chance that they have no romantic or sexual interest because they’re straight.”
That’s caused Marc “a lot of pain and insecurity.”
That’s understandable, says Stokes. “Common feelings I hear from LGBT+ men are feelings of isolation, shame, guilt, and being misunderstood,” he says. “This is a recipe for an anxiety or depressive disorder.”
Before coming out to his family and friends, Ian’s anxiety kicked into high gear.
“I was worried about letting people down, how people would react — many things,” he says. “It was leading to stress and probably a touch of depression.”
Therapy helps people “learn about their own sexual identity and what feels authentic in their expression,” he explains. “Each person is different and so helping identify what feels good for that individual is so important.”
Therapy can also help address anxiety and mood disorders before they spiral.
“Therapy helped a lot,” Ian says. “I always encourage people to ask for help because it is there.”
Luke agrees. “I've been to therapy many times to address issues around my sexuality, relationships, and depression,” he says. “I'm a big proponent of therapy and found it to be very helpful.”
Stokes says bisexual men may “want to find a therapist who is LGBTQ knowledgeable and affirming.” He says men may “want to find a bisexual or gay therapist who has some shared experience around this and may help you feel more comfortable.”
Psychology Today has a database of mental health professionals and you can filter options by specialty, including LGBTQ+ issues. You can also specifically search for a bisexual therapist. You can find more resources at the end of this column.
Don’t worry so much about the label or fitting into a category
Although figuring out your sexual identity can be liberating, Drew and Jai suggest not worrying too much about how other people define it.
“Keep in mind that, just as there’s no such thing of a golden list of requirements to identify as gay or straight, bisexual is the same,” Drew says. “If the tag feels right for you, you’re free to claim it.”
“I’ve come across many men who have had multiple, pleasant sexual experiences with both men and women and still don’t identify as bisexual — and that’s fine,” he adds.
Jai agrees, saying when people try to force you into a box or slap you with a certain label, that’s “not your issue, it’s theirs.”
“Do you really think anyone can ever fit your life experience in a title or label?” he says. “I’m not saying labels are bad, they’re affirmative and helpful. But if they don’t apply to you, that’s alright too.”
“Be kind to yourself,” he says, “the world’s hard enough already.”
*Names have been changed to protect sources’ privacy.
If you feel like you may harm yourself, someone else, or otherwise feel like you’re in immediate danger, see a doctor, go to the emergency room, or call an LGBTQ+ crisis hotline.
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (800-273-8255)
The Trevor Project (866-488-7386, for LGBTQ+ youth ages 13-24)
The Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender National Hotline (888-843-4564)
Stokes says this is quite common with many people in the LGBTQ community and therapy can help.
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shxtpxstlxvxngfxck · 4 months ago
Can i get uHhHhhHH
A rebluse annoying Sylvie sibling (younger or older youre pick!)
so everytime he Tells them NOT to do something they do it anyway {mostly cause he buried himself in his work and they just wanted his attention} so they act out and get on his nerves and says something he doesn’t mean like “I hate you” ect ect, just some Sylvester sibling angst!
I really should've gotten to this sooner, my apologies!
- You've always been the untalented sibling
- don't get me wrong, you're just as talented as any other kid your age and you're good at what you do, it's just that compared to your older brother you're kinda stupid
- Because of this treatment that you've been getting since the first three grades Sylvester went up when he was at least seven, your family kept telling you to be more like him
- After your parents' deaths you and Sylvie have been living in an apartment and getting monthly allowances from your uncles, but that just won't cut it for you
- you're a kid, you have close to no real friends, and you don't have any parents to spend time with, so you would think that you spend more time with your older brother, right? wrong.
-Ever since he graduated college and got his doctorate he's just been doing more and more research on epithets to the point where he just forgets you exist
- so of course to get his attention, you start to act out
- You started to come home from skate parks and graveyards at 6 in the morning when you left at 8 at night, always covered in cuts and bruises and usually bringing home random stray cats with 10 different diseases. You dyed your hair in a school bathroom and had one of your "friends" give you a stick n poke tattoo and some random piercings
- whenever you come home looking at least slightly different, he gets livid. Of course he's worried about you, but he's more mad that you're doing all of this for what he thinks is no reason. But the only way that you respond to his response is acting out even more and making artwork out of things in your apartment that you shouldn't, even going as far as to break the coffee machine to make a "statement piece"
- Whatever he tells you not to do, you do and whatever he tells you to do, you don't. At this point, it's kind of pissing him off.
- however, this was the last straw.
- Like any other night, you were sneaking out at four in the morning. Sylvester was still in the hospital from his "museum trip" so you decided to have some fun and hitch-hike to redwood run. You figured that he wouldn't even notice since he never pays attention to you at all except for when he catches you being stupid, so you tried to get back sooner than normal
- your stay ended up being longer than expected, since you discovered that the town was overrun by Banzai Blasters and a conflict between two Banzai Blasters, a bounty hunter, a con artist, and a cop kind of forced you to stay until some guy with fluffy hair drove you home in his horribly beat up car since you forgot your phone and couldn't call an uber or a lyft
- however you were DEFINITELY in for a treat when you got home
- You opened your bedroom window and crawled through to see your phone blowing up with missed calls and unread texts from everyone you know, even a classmate you gave your number to for a group project. You read every text and listened to every voicemail, all of which were asking you where you were.
- when you opened your bedroom door, you saw Sylvester sitting at the dining table with his head in his hand while he used the other to reach for the phone presumably to report you missing
"Sylvie? Sylvester I'm home."
- His hand instantly jerked away from the phone as he looked towards you with angry tears in his eyes.
- "Where the hell were you? I came home from the hospital to see you NOT HERE at SIX IN THE DAMN MORNING. I kept waiting for you since this is routine at this point but it's almost 5 pm. You usually come back by noon. I was worried sick!"
- he walked towards you, seemingly waiting for your response. You tried to open your mouth but nothing would come out. He just shook his head.
- "You are absolutely unbelievable. I-I can't deal with you anymore. I try to make enough money for our uncles to stop sending us an allowance, I work hard so I can surprise you on holidays and so we can eat well, and THIS is how you repay me? What did I ever do to you?"
- you can't even look him in the eye without crying at this point, so you looked at the floor. "I'm sorry I tried to be home earlier this time I really tried it's just that something came up-"
- "Oh you think your life is so hard huh? You think that sorry will cut it? You really think that I believe that something sooo important came up when you were gone that you LEFT YOUR PHONE? God, I give you a roof over your head and you decide to be a pain in my ass ALL THE TIME!"
- your eyes start to tear up. "I didn't know that I would be in that situation and I just forgot my phone, I just needed to get out of the house and forget-" he cut you off.
- "Forget what? How good of a life you have? I can't even look at you. Go to your room."
- you tried to argue back, but he wouldn't listen. "I WAS IN DANGER-"
- an eruption of tears came out of your eyes before you ran into your room and slammed the door behind you, locking it and putting a barricade around it just to make sure he couldn't get in somehow
-You curled up onto your bed and screamed into your pillow. Yes you got the attention, but you're not sure if you want it anymore if your brother's gonna hate you
- hours passed and he didn't even knock at the door to say sorry or try to give you food. You ate some of the candy you had stashed under your bed before eventually passing out from exhaustion. Would he ever bring himself to apologize? You seriously doubt it.
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vidavalor · 10 months ago
Mobius' backstory delay = a really good sign for Lokius
The writers didn't just pull showing us Mobius' family from S1-- they likely shifted all the storytelling they wanted to do with that family onto the Other!Mobius we just met at the end of the S1 finale...
...and all of that is very, very good for Lokius.
How, you ask?
Consider that the one big difference from the Other!TVA to the one where we spent the rest of S1 is that they all know that a variant of He Who Remains runs the show. That heavily implies that none of the Other!TVA agents, including Mobius, are kidnapped variants. They all *just work there*. It's a regular, bureaucratic 9-5 job. No need to kidnap & brainwash people in this timeline: people are just recruited & work of their own free will. They have choices and their own lives. They go home at night when their shifts are over. Some of them likely have families. If you think the show just kicked Loki in the teeth over him realizing that he's in another timeline and this Mobius isn't his Mobius, wait until he meets this Mobius' *goddamned perfect, totally sweet, equally cinnamon-roll-y f*cking romantic partner*...
Other!Mobius: Oh, Agent Loki! I don't think you've met my other half yet. Honey, meet my new partner on the time force.
Ben Stiller (lol): So, you're the guy my husband can't stop talking about!
Loki: *dying a slow death inside* Ah, I do believe I hear B-15... Barbara... whatever her name is... summoning me for ah, some very important reason!... lovely to meet you!...
Y'all, Our Loki is going to have spent time during S2 in an alternate timeline where Mobius has a sweet guy and maybe a jet ski and probably a dog and maybe possibly a kid and definitely all the free will he can imagine and will be a lovely guy as all Mobi fundamentally are but won't be *Loki's* Mobius and won't have the experiences specifically that Loki's Mobius has that specifically make him the man who he is, who is also the man that Loki loves. All the boldly gluttonous amount of angst that the show wants to play with by giving Mobius a family around Loki just as Loki is realizing he wants to be Mobius' family is now something I'd be willing to bet they're doing with Other!Mobius in S2... for the express purpose of pushing Loki into action when he reunites with his Mobius.
The show spent time in S1 setting up the idea of Mobius regaining his memories and even had space to explore that in. I predict it was a consideration for Episode 5, when they all spent some time chilling in The Void and there was a strong theme in that episode in particular surrounding family and found family. Could they have had Mobius get his memories back and given him a family and would there still have been hope for Lokius? Of course. Mobius was almost certainly a younger adult in the 1990s, which means giving him a family without an express ability to get back to that family without, y'know, destroying the fabric of time (at least at this point in time) would have resulted in a really good, angsty plot. Or, hell, he could have *had* a family and might have even if we see his memories at some point. Maybe that husband from the other universe that Loki theorizes could be the love of Mobius' life in every universe? Maybe Loki's theory isn't wrong. He could enchant Mobius and we find out that the partner died or something. Ben Stiller could well be an universal constant, y'all, and even that might not even destroy Lokius. That's just truth.*
The point of doing anything with Mobius' various backstories on the show is going to be to advance Loki and Mobius' relationship in the present and that's going to be true even if these stupid time agent idiots don't just kiss at some point. It's true of their friendship as well as any potential romance. I think that learning what Other!Mobius' life is like in the other universe is going to lead Loki to continue to act very selflessly when it comes to his Mobius' happiness when they reunite (continuing off of having told him he was a variant in the first place in S1) and to make sure that he knows about IGiveUpOnCallingTheHusbandAnythingButBenStiller in the other universe. Loki will offer to enchant Mobius' memories back to try to reunite him with this potential long love. This'll kill them both dead inside, of course, as Loki was last seen doing the Rom Com Run of Love Awareness and Impending Confession at the end of S1 and Mobius had a scene so overtly jealous of Sylvie that they named the damn score to it "Lokius" so these two, by the time they reunite, are well aware that they are in love with one another but haven't *told* one another that yet.
Hell, this could even be how they do. What if Mobius' response is just to tell Loki that he doesn't need his memories back because who he was then isn't who he is now and he knows that he doesn't love Ben Stiller because he loves Loki and he knows without a doubt that he's never felt like this before?
Yeah, oh yeah, Lokius Nation, we're going there...
What else is the point of admitting that Tom & Owen, I mean, the writers!, decided to scrap the idea that Mobius has a guy waiting for him in a Texas Blockbuster in 1997 if not for making sure that, while there can be angst a-plenty, there ultimately isn't somebody else that our Mobius decides he has to honor his commitment to and shatter Loki into pieces over? The writers want to play with all the pain of these two, for sure, but this is Marvel, not The English Patient. (I'm making all the '90s references here, I know.) There's plenty of tragedy already here in this show that has an unusual obsession with hinting that they're steering this boat towards a version of Peggy & Steve's Endgame ending in the short term.
Kate Herron said they cut Mobius' family because they aren't sure what exactly his backstory is yet which is a way of saying that the one thing they *are* sure of is that they don't want him to have had a normal family life in the past-- otherwise, they would have just done that already. Why would you yank out all that angst when it's clear you still need to play with it because of the nature of Loki and Mobius' relationship? Why toss it to another Mobius to have the family and provide that scenario for Loki's development and his and Mobius' relationship development when there was an option to give it to our Mobius? Easy answer there:
they need a clear romantic path for our Mobius to Loki.
One could still have existed-- and still will exist-- if they give our Mobius a family in S2 but it's really suspect to me that they had plenty of opportunity to do that already and decided they didn't want to give him one and just said basically "we'll figure out exact details of his life as we go next season but it ultimately doesn't matter what the specifics of those are when it comes to our overall S2 story plotting because we know what we want the *jist* of it to be and that's that Mobius isn't missing a heck of a lot in his past life-- that the loneliness and need for adventure that he has that we know in the present is possibly also some spillover from who he was before-- and that whatever he's going to find in his memories are not going to ultimately impede furthering his relationship with Loki."
He can have a jetski empire or have been a private eye or was an accountant whose nexus event was trying to kill himself, who the hell knows-- it'll all be *interesting* when we see it but the second the writers decided that Mobius wasn't a man with a wife and 2.5 kids in '90s Texas... that's the moment that the path to Lokius just became quite a bit easier and I say that as someone who is fully aware that the two characters I am discussing are presently trapped in different timelines.
So yeah, just some writer's two cents but we'll see.
*Ben Stiller as Other!Mobius' husband in a jealous-off with our petty God of Mischief... no wait. WAIT. Ben Stiller as Other!Mobius' *Loki variant* husband... not sure how that works since this universe doesn't seem to have Lokis that we know of yet but let's deem it so and will it into existence...
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lokiondisneyplus · 10 months ago
A review of “Journey Into Mystery,” the penultimate Loki Season One episode on Disney+, coming up just as soon as I paper cut a giant cloud to death…
Journey Into Mystery was the title of the first Marvel comic to feature either Thor or Loki. It began as an anthology series featuring monsters and aliens, but Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, and Larry Lieber were so smitten with their adaptation of the characters of Norse myth that the Asgardians gradually took over the whole book, which was renamed after its hammer-wielding hero(*).
(*) The early Journey Into Mystery stories treated Thor’s alter ego, disabled Dr. Donald Blake, as the “real” character, while Thor was just someone Blake could magically transform into, while retaining his memories and personality. It wasn’t even clear whether Asgard itself was meant to exist at first, until Loki turned up on Earth in an early issue, caused trouble, and Blake/Thor somehow knew exactly how to get to Asgard to drop him off. Soon, the lines between Thor and Blake began to blur, and eventually Thor became the real guy, and Blake a fiction invented by Odin to humble his arrogant son. It’s a mark of just how instantly charismatic Loki was that the entire title quickly steered towards him and the other gods.
But once upon a time, anything was possible in Journey Into Mystery, which makes it an apt moniker for an absolutely wonderful episode of Loki where the same holds true. Our title characters are trapped in the Void, a place at the end of time where the TVA’s victims are banished to be devoured by a cloud monster named Alioth. And mostly they are surrounded by the wreckage of many dead timelines. Classic Loki insists that his group’s only goal is survival, and any kind of planning and scheming is doomed to kill the Loki who tries. But this ruined, hopeless world instead feels bursting with imagination and possibility.
There are the many Loki variants we see, with President Loki, among others, joining Classic, Kid, Boastful, and Alligator Loki. There are the metric ton of Easter Eggs just waiting to be screencapped by Marvel obsessives (I discuss a few of them down below), but which still suggest a much larger and weirder MCU even if you don’t immediately scream out “Is that… THROG?!?!?” at the appropriate moment. And all of that stuff is tons of fun, to be sure. But what makes this episode — and, increasingly, this series — feel so special is the way that it explores the untapped potential of Loki himself, in his many, many variations.
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This is an episode that owes more than a small stylistic and thematic debt to Lost. It’s not just that Alioth looks and sounds so much like the Smoke Monster(*), that it makes a shared Wizard of Oz reference to “the man behind the curtain” (also the title of one of the very best Lost episodes), or even that the core group of Lokis are hiding in a bunker accessible via a hatch and a ladder that’s filled with recreational equipment (in this case, bowling alley lanes). It’s also that Loki, Sylvie, their counterparts, and Mobius have all been transported to a strange place that has disturbing echoes from their own lives, that operates according to strange new rules they have to learn while fleeing danger, and their presence there allows them to reflect on the many mistakes of their past and consider whether they want to, or can, transcend them.
(*) Yes, Alioth technically predates Smokey by a decade (see the notes below for more), but his look has been tweaked a bit here to seem more like smoke than a cloud, and the sounds he makes when he roars sound a lot like Smokey’s telltale taxi cab meter clicks. Given the other Lost hat tips in the episode, I have to believe Alioth was chosen specifically to evoke Smokey.
Classic Loki is aptly named. He wears the Sixties Jack Kirby costume, and he is a far more powerful magician than either Sylvie or our Loki have allowed themselves to be. He calls our Loki’s knives worthless compared to his sorcery, which feels like the show acknowledging that the movies depowered Loki a fair amount to make him seem cooler. But if Classic Loki can conjure up illusions bigger and more potent than his younger peers, he is a fundamentally weak and defeated man, convinced, like the others, that the only way to win the game into which he was born is not to play. “We cannot change,” he insists. “We’re broken. Every version of ourselves. Forever.” It is not only his sentiment — Kid Loki adds that any Loki who tries to improve inevitably winds up in the Void for their troubles — but it seems to have weighed on him longer and harder than most.
But Classic Loki takes inspiration from Loki and Sylvie to stand and fight rather than turn and run, magicking up a vision of their homeland to distract Alioth at a crucial moment in Sylvie’s plan, and getting eaten for his trouble. He was wrong: Lokis can change. (Though Kid Loki might once again argue that Classic Loki’s death is more evidence that the universe has no interest in any of them doing so.) And both Loki and Sylvie have been changing throughout their time together. Like most Lokis, they seem cursed to a life of loneliness. Sylvie learned as a child that a higher power believed she should not exist, and has spent a lifetime hiding out in places where any friends she might make will soon die in an apocalypse. Our Loki’s past isn’t quite so stark, but the knowledge that his birth father abandoned him, while his adoptive father never much liked him, have left permanent scars that govern a lot of his behavior. The defining element of Classic Loki’s backstory is that he spent a long time alone on a planet, and only got busted by the TVA when he attempted to reconnect with his brother and anyone else he once knew. This is a hard existence, for all of them. And while it does not forgive them their many sins(*), it helps contextualize them, and give them the knowledge to try to be better versions of themselves.
(*) Loki at one point even acknowledges that, for him, it’s probably only been a few days since he led an alien invasion of New York that left many dead, though due to TVA shenanigans, far more time may have passed.
For that matter, Mobius is not the stainless hero he once thought of himself as. While he and Sylvie are tooling around the Void in a pizza delivery car (because of course they are), he admits that he committed a lot of sins by believing that the ends justified the means, and was wrong. He doesn’t know who he is before the TVA stole and factory rebooted him, but he knows that he wants something better for himself and the universe, and takes the stolen TemPad to open up a portal to his own workplace in hopes of tearing down the TVA once and for all. Before he goes, though, he and Loki share a hug that feels a lot more poignant than it should, given that these characters have only spent parts of four episodes of TV together. It’s a testament to Hiddleston, Wilson, Waldron, and company (Tom Kauffman wrote this week’s script) that their friendship felt so alive and important in such a short amount of time.
The same can be said for Loki and Sylvie’s relationship, however we’re choosing to define it. Though they briefly cuddle together under a blanket that Loki conjures, they move no closer to romance than they were already. If anything, Mobius’ accusations of narcissism in last week’s episode seem to have made both of them pull back a bit from where they seemed to be heading back on Lamentis. But the connection between them is real, whatever exactly it is. And their ability to take down Alioth — to tap into the magic that Classic Loki always had, and to fulfill Loki’s belief that “I think we’re stronger than we realize” — by working together is inspiring and joyful. Without all this nuanced and engaging character work, Loki would still be an entertaining ride, but it’s the marriage of wild ideas with the human element that’s made it so great.
Of course, now comes the hard part. Endings have rarely been an MCU strength, give or take something like the climax of Endgame, and the finales of the two previous Disney+ shows were easily their weakest episodes. The strange, glorious, beautiful machine that Waldron and Herron have built doesn’t seem like it’s heading for another generic hero/villain slugfest, but then, neither did WandaVision before we got exactly that. This one feels different so far, though. The command of the story, the characters, and the tone are incredibly strong right now. There is a mystery to be solved about who is in the big castle beyond the Void (another Loki makes the most narrative and thematic sense to me, but we’ll see), and a lot to be resolved about what happens to the TVA and our heroes. And maybe there’s some heavy lifting that has to be done in service to the upcoming Dr. Strange or Ant-Man films.
It’s complicated, but on a show that has handled complexity well. Though even if the finale winds up keeping things simpler, that might work. As Loki notes while discussing his initial plan to take down Alioth, “Just because it’s not complicated doesn’t mean it’s bad.” Though as Kid Loki retorts, “It also doesn’t mean it’s good.”
Please be good, Loki finale. Everything up to this point deserves that.
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Some other thoughts:
* Most of this week’s most interesting material happens in the Void. But the scenes back at the TVA clarify a few things. First, Ravonna is not the mastermind of all this, and she was very much suckered in by the Time-Keeper robots. But unlike Mobius or Hunter B-15, she’s so conditioned to the mission that even knowing it’s a lie hasn’t really swayed her from her mission. She has Miss Minutes (who herself is much craftier this week) looking into files about the creation of the TVA, but for the most part comes across as someone very happy with a status quo where she gets to be special and pass judgment on the rest of the multiverse.
* Alioth first appeared in 1993’s Avengers: The Terminatrix Objective, a miniseries (written by Mobius inspiration Mark Gruenwald, and with some extremely kewl Nineties art full of shoulder pads, studded collars, and the like) involving Ravonna, Kang, and the off-brand versions of Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor (aka U.S. Agent, War Machine, and Thunderstrike, the latter of whom has yet to appear in the MCU). It’s a sequel to a Nineties crossover event called Citizen Kang. And no, I still don’t buy that Kang will be the one pulling the strings here, if only because it’s really bad storytelling for the big bad of the season to have never appeared or even been mentioned prior to the finale.
* Rather than try to identify every Easter egg visible in the Void’s terrain, I’ll instead highlight three of the most interesting. Right before the Lokis arrive at the hatch, we see a helicopter with Thanos’ name on it. This is a hat tip to an infamous — and often memed — out-of-continuity story where Thanos flies this chopper while trying to steal the Cosmic Cube (aka the Tesseract) from Hellcat. (A little kid gets his hands on it instead and, of course, uses the Cube to conjure up free ice cream.) James Gunn has been agitating for years for the Thanos Copter to be in the MCU. He finally got his wish.
* The other funny one: When the camera pans down the tunnel into Kid Loki’s headquarters, we see Mjolnir buried in the ground, and right below it is a jar containing a very annoyed frog in a Thor costume. This is either Thor himself — whom Loki cursed into amphibianhood in a memorable Walt Simonson storyline — or another character named Simon Walterston (note the backwards tribute to Walt) who later assumed the tiny mantle.
* Also, in one scene you can spot Yellowjacket’s helmet littering the landscape. This might support the theory that the TVA, the Void, etc., all exist in the Quantum Realm, since that’s where the MCU version of Yellowjacket probably went when his suit shorted out and he was crushed to subatomic size. Or it might be more trolling of the fanbase from the company that had WandaVision fans convinced that Mephisto, the X-Men, and/or Reed Richards would be appearing by the season finale.
* Honestly, I would have watched an entire episode that was just Loki, Mobius, and the others arguing about whether Alligator Loki was actually a Loki, or just a gator who ended up with the crown, presumably after eating a real Loki. The suggestion that the gator might be lying — and that this actually supports, rather than undermines, the case for him being a Loki — was just delightful. And hey, if Throg exists in the MCU now, why not Alligator Loki?
* Finally, the MCU films in general are not exactly known for their visual flair, though a few directors like Taika Waititi and Ryan Coogler have been able to craft distinctive images within the franchise’s usual template. Loki, though, is so often wonderful to look at, and particularly when our heroes are stuck in strange environments like Lamentis or the Void. Director Kate Herron and the VFX team work very well together to create dynamic and weird imagery like Sylvie running from Alioth, or the chaotic Loki battle in the bowling alley. Between this show and WandaVision, it appears the Disney+ corner of the MCU has a bit more room to expand its palette. (Falcon and the Winter Soldier, much less so.)
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enchantedbyhiddles · 10 months ago
I keep reading that it seems Sylvie is the main character rather than Loki and i beginning to agree, Loki hardly seems clever anymore, he gets thrown on his ass/kicked around by everyone, everyone is referring to Sylvie as the superior Loki which is making me resent Sylvie if anything. he just seems be there along for Mobius and Sylvie's ride and is better than the Loki we known for 10 years. The focus is mainly on Sylvie and Sylvie is made out be more threatening and superior to Loki. Unless it what everyone else thinks it Tom Hiddleston Loki bowing out and being replaced by Sylvie since she is the better Loki within 5 mins of existing, while Loki we grown to Love over a decade, is treated awful/like a joke.
Hey dear anon, I think it might be good for you to take a step back. Don't care so much about what others might think or see in the show and about Loki. Watch the show for yourself and decide if you like it or not. I get that we all want to share our experiences with others, but it can also influence what we think. In the end it can make us resent what we used to love. The whole speculations and so on can also warp our perception. So sometimes it helps to just take the thing for what it is and find the love again. If you then still feel that way then it is okay to admit that the show is not for you. You don't have to love it. You shouldn't suffer through something that pains you. It is far better to then indulge in fanfictions and other fanworks. Find happiness with like-minded people, but don’t make yourself be miserable.
To me Loki is definitely the main character. He was there for the main time of four episodes. Of course people latch onto new characters. It is exciting and new. But both characters mostly exist in their relationship to Loki. Sylvie was now in what, two episodes? And from the looks of it in the next one even more Lokis enter the scene and I'm pretty sure that Old!Loki and Kid!Loki will get more screentime and very likely attention.
This shared screen though doesn't mean that Loki is any less. We got so many things about Loki that until now only existed in fandom. Loki being happy and singing, Loki drinking, Loki playing pranks, Loki talking about his relationship with Frigga, so much time of Loki expressing feelings and explaining himself, all this self-search and acknowledgement. Most of that until now only existed in seconds of screentime and some deleted scenes. While we might have known about that before, it was only because we as fans dissected every single second and build whole worlds around that. We got so much that only existed in our heads before. So in many cases we might not get that much meta about Loki, because fandom might just say "Ha, I knew it!", when our longheld suspicions are confirmed. With Sylvie and Mobius it is just the first new influx of information.
Loki is not a joke and I never felt the need to laugh at him here. Someone trying to find his way in a totally new and hostile environment isn't a joke to me. Someone struggling at times isn't funny. The only times I laughed with him was when he had fun. A few days ago Loki had no idea that anything more threatening than Thanos exists and now he found a partners with whom he plans to take them down. The whole TVA searched an eternity to try to find out how to stop Sylvie, Loki needed what? An afternoon in the library to figure it out. Sylvie might seem more capable at times, but then she had her whole lifetime preparing for that. Loki is smart and incredibly gifted.
I might have to agree that Loki doesn't seem as strong as before in comparison to the others at the moment. That's though is the always existing story-telling problem of a protagonist. He can't be better at everything than anyone around or you couldn't tell a heroic story any longer. In every TV show, in every movie series, with every single movie they invent a threat that is even bigger and more challenging than the one before. Now that Loki is the protagonist he falls victim to that. The good thing about the heroic story though is that the hero will also find new strengths and in the end emerges successful. :)
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whispering-about-loki · a year ago
A Little theory regarding the Loki series
Warning! Image-heavy!
I am going to preface this by saying that this won’t happen. Well, maybe it won’t. Most of it won’t. Maybe some of it will. So SPOILER warning, in case it does. 
I’ll put some of my thought process in a note at the end.
After Loki is arrested and brought before court to be charged for his part in certain time crimes, Mobius M. Mobius takes him “somewhere to talk”. He shows Loki snippets of how his life would have gone if he hadn’t skipped out with the Tesseract, then he tells him that he needs his help. Someone has been causing changes throughout history, making a myriad of variant timelines. Mobius believes that someone is taking advantage of their position in the TVA to cause this chaos; but his superiors refuse to believe that any of their ranks would behave in such a manner. So Mobius figures that if you want to handle chaos, you need to embrace chaos, and without consulting his superiors about it, he offers the God of Mischief a deal: help him find and bring back the rogue agent, and Loki will get his freedom. 
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It is, of course, against the rules; but Mobius is willing to bend the rules a bit, if it means ending the time incidents. Loki agrees, thinking he will be able to use the situation to escape. But Mobius understands Loki’s thought process and warns him that if he strays from his assignment, he will be brought right back to the TVA. Loki being Loki, though, does try to skip out; but after he is zipped right back to the TVA a couple times, he doesn’t try it again.
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Loki then does what he agreed to, slipping through time with Mobius and looking for the cause of the chaos. Disconcertingly, though, Loki’s power and strength begin to diminish, to the point where simple attacks he should have been able to easily counter are enough to take him down. Mobius says he doesn’t know why it is happening.
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After a while Mobius's superiors suspect he is up to something, so he begins sending Loki out on his own, staying behind at the TVA to keep the others off his trail. Loki still doesn't like being in someone's "servant", and he resents being kept on such a tight temporal leash; but he continues reporting back to Mobius. While on assignments, Loki occasionally ends up preventing disasters that the “Agent of Chaos” had set in motion; though he also can’t help but make some “small” changes to the timeline, himself.
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Mobius tells him to be more careful, or he might cause unforeseen effects. When Loki scoffs at this, Mobius asks him if he wants to see the world where he “won” the battle of New York. Mobius doesn’t wait for Loki’s answer, but immediately ships Loki off to an apocalyptic-looking New York City. When Loki gets there, the air is cold to the point where he can see his own breath, and it is utterly silent. A result, it appears, of not only the Chitauri attack, but of the bomb that the Humans used to try to wipe out the invading army. Apparently, the only ones that got wiped out were the Humans -- Avengers and all.
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Loki wanders around the desolation for a while, until he is at last found by a roving group of ragged men. They seem to recognize him and he is brought to the leader of the city, who happens to be himself. Boss-Loki has gone a bit around the bend, though. He has been stuck in this place for years since the attack, and has carved himself out a little “kingdom” in the ruins, based in an old arcade. Our Loki is shocked and almost disgusted to see how far he has fallen. When Boss-Loki’s men turn on him because of this other Loki’s presence, though, our Loki gets caught up in the fighting. He calls out to Mobius that he has made his point, and to get him out of there.
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Loki goes on doing his “job” then, being more careful with time. At long last, he finds a strange object at the scene of one of the chaotic events, and he brings it back to Mobius, who recognizes it as something he had taken from one of the young agent recruits, a girl named Sylvie. Mobius explains that some of the agents in the TVA are clones (like himself), but that some are recruited at a young age by the TVA because they show special abilities. Sometimes these recruitments occur from outside the main timeline, which is where they found Sylvie. Not only was she a gifted individual, but the TVA records showed that she should not have existed in the first place; so they took her in to train her, and also so that her presence would not disrupt the flow of time. 
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Mobius and Loki go to confront her in her room, but she is gone. Mobius feels responsible because it was he that “recruited” Sylvie. Additionally, he knew that she had a habit of slipping through time on “joy rides” and coming back with souvenirs, which was strictly against the rules. She always seemed innocent, though, so he went easy on her about it. Hidden in a drawer in her room, they find other “souvenirs”, and Loki notes that some of them have Asgardian runes on them. Mobius says that Sylvie is human, according to her genetic code, so he doesn’t understand what she is doing with the runes. 
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As they ponder the meaning of this, an alarm sounds in the TVA headquarters, and they know something terrible is happening in some variant timeline. They leave Sylvie’s room to try to get to the portals to take them to the time-incident; but on the way, some TVA agents try to stop them. They claim that Loki is the rogue element that has been causing all of the chaos, and that he needs to be “erased” as soon as possible. 
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Mobius pretends to be on the agents' side, then sets them off-guard so Loki can get to the scene of chaos. After fighting his way through the Minutemen that are guarding the portals, Loki arrives when/where Sylvie is--at a quarry mine--the moon is shattered and the fragments are falling to the Earth. 
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Loki runs to get to safety, and the ground opens up as the mine before him collapses, blocking him off from the now-adult Sylvie, who is staring up at the falling moon. She turns and looks at him just as the ground completely falls out from underneath him.
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Suddenly the world around him stills and he lands hard on the ground. He struggles to his feet and looks up to see that everything has frozen around him. As he is standing there, gaping in disbelief, he turns and sees Sylvie standing beside him. She is wearing clothing very similar to his old Asgardian outfit, and she is smiling at the destruction and chaos before them.
“Hello, Father,” she says. “Have I made you proud?”
My main thought was that since Cailey Fleming is listed as playing “Young Sylvie”, that would imply the presence of an older Sylvie. Otherwise, she would have been listed as “Sylvie”. Sylvie Lushton being the girl that Loki, in the comics, empowered and/or created, and who later became a version of Enchantress. 
That is who I think Sophia Di Martino is playing as an adult, rather than Lady Loki, like I used to think. Her hair is the wrong color to be Loki, for one thing; and she has been shown filming in the same location as Tom Hiddleston, who was wearing an Agent outfit at the time. I’m not gonna put the set photos here, but you know the ones... the pictures where she is wearing just about the same outfit as Loki has in the past. And we know that this character is the one that is causing the chaos, because in those set photos she is wearing a certain pair of boots and fingerless gloves, both of which are freeze-frame bonusses on the “mystery figure” in the trailer (when she drops the lantern and lifts her hands to her hood).
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I’d also like to point out that she is wearing what appears to be a sword on her hip:
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Anyway, I figure it goes something like this: 
Sylvie exists because another version of Loki had adopted her when he discovered that she had talents close to his own. He had begun training her how to use magic; but he was not so good a teacher as Frigga was, and the training was complicated by her wily and independent nature. Loki in that timeline died, though, leaving Sylvie alone. 
The TVA (specifically, Mobius) took her in, but because of her abilities, she was naturally able to slip through time, create illusions, age herself up and down, etc. Eventually, she decided she would “make her father proud” by sowing chaos. The thing is, she has grown stronger and more chaotic since Loki showed up at the TVA, because she has been inadvertently drawing his power and life force from him -- basically depowering him to charge herself up (c’mon... he gets laid out by a Roomba...). In fact, the draining of his life-force was what killed her “father” in her own timeline, though she didn’t know it.
Additionally (and on another note), the Loki series is said to be a “crime thriller” with sci-fi aspects; so while Loki tracking down a rogue time-agent seems to be a pretty straightforward idea, it could be given a nice twist at the end by having the rogue element not be an agent, but someone of Loki’s own making. And it would be one hell of a cliffhanger for the next season.
And... that’s all I got for now.
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