Question question, Wizard of Oz is one of my favorite stories/series, and though it was written to be a "modern fairy tale", it's quite different from the tales you talk about here, so I was wondering about your feelings and thoughts on it
My feelings on the Wizard of Oz are a little complicated, so it's probably fair to start with saying that I've only read a Dutch translation of Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz that was probably somewhat shortened. And I've never read the other books in the series. With that said:
I like the Wizard of Oz! It has fun fantasy logic, a plucky heroine, melting witches, fantastic magic shoes, flying monkeys, a mix of 'real magic' and the power of belief, and you can kiss protective stars onto foreheads.
What I don't like, is that it keeps showing up on lists of "most beloved fairy tales", while it really isn't - in my personal opinion - a fairy tale. (Just like Peter Pan, Pinnochio and Alice in Wonderland, but I digress.) I think it's a great example of being inspired by fairy tale elements, but giving them your own spin.
The magical silver shoes, for example, are very like the kind of object you'd find in a fairy tale. They'll remind people of Cinderella's slippers and the Seven League Boots, but also of the gifts (magic nuts, protective necklace, blessed weapon) that fairy tale heroes often get. Letting them be stolen from a witch, however, and making their magic unclear at first and then having them do full teleportation, is much more fantasy than fairy tale.
Another fun twist is Dorothy melting the Wicked Witch with water. This does not come from folklore, but it's such a striking visual that it is pretty much part of American folklore by now. Which in my opinion is a testament to how good of an idea that was! Because it sounds like something that makes sense to defeat an evil witch with. There is folklore scattered about that states witches can't cross running water (like some vampires) and water as a purifying, cleansing thing is deeply routed in all kinds of traditional beliefs.
But at its core The Wonderful Wizard of Oz feels much more like a fantasy travel adventure to me, than like a fairy tale. Most fairy tale characters are archetypal, and their motivations are simple. The story focuses on what happens to them and how they act, but rarely on their inner experiences. This works well for a short tale, because you don't get bogged down in details, but usually starts to drag in a longer format. It's not strange to me that Anderson's The Snow Queen usually gets shortened in retellings, it makes it a full fairy tale instead of a fairy tale-ish saga. Nor that De Villeneuve's Beauty and the Beast only ended up in oral tradition after De Beaumont cut out half the plot. (Elaborate dream sequences are hard to remember when telling stories around the fire).
I feel like The Wonderful Wizard of Oz has far more to say than would have ever fit in a fairy tale. Not just because of the length, but also because of the kind of story it wants to tell. So I personally wouldn't call it a fairy tale, but I do think it added wonderful imagery to our fairy tale telling vocabulary ^^
Also, in my Dutch translation there was a beautiful illustration of Glinda's female guards, dressed in what I now realise must have been inspired by Canadian mounted police uniforms. Child-me thought they were the absolute best <3
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A quick skim through the BBC!Ghosts tag tells me that no one has spent too much time trying to decode the Captain’s service ribbons. Lucky you, I did!
The badge on his jacket lapels say that he was in the royal artillery
1939 to 1945 Star: This is awarded to anyone who completed operational service overseas between 3 September 1939 and 8 May 1945 for at least 180 days.
France and Germany Star: Awarded for at least 1 day of operational service in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands or Germany between 6 June 1944 and 8 May 1945.
Defence Medal: Awarded for non-operational service (like training bases, for example) in the UK or overseas. A minimum of 3 years service in either the UK (3 Sep 1939 and 8 May 1945) or in the Home Guard (14 May 1940 and 31 Dec 1944) are required; if stationed overseas, 1 year between 3 Sep 1939 and 2 Sep 1945.
War Medal 1939 to 1945: Awarded to all full time personnel of the armed forces who served at least 28 days between 3 September 1939 and 2 September 1945, no matter where. In Europe, WWII ended in May 1945; this medal was instituted in August 1945.
He doesn’t wear any other clasp, so he didn’t fight in the Battle for Britain or the Battle of the Atlantic (makes sense, those were RAF and Navy stuff mostly). The Africa Star was awarded for a minimum of one day of operational service in North Africa, the Arctic Star was awarded for any amount of time spent fighting in that campaign, and the Pacific, Burma, and Italy Stars were awarded upon entry into an operational area. He was awarded none of these medals, which means he only fought the France and Germany campaign.
He only wears WWII medals, which means he didn’t fight in WWI (it was unlikely he would have anyway, tbh, 41 was the the maximum age to fight in WWII, which would have made him 18 in 1916). The order I’ve written them out in (from top to bottom) is the order they should go left to right. For some reason, the Captain is wearing the ribbon band upside down. That’s a very huge big no good no-no. At first I assumed if was a mistake by the costume people, but it’s been three seasons and that hasn’t been fixed yet so I have to conclude it’s intentional. It could be some kind of BBC directive (idk, “non-army personnel has to wear the uniform in a certain way or it’s an insult to the queen” or some other silly nonsense) or it could be a genuine mistake the Captain made before dying, in which case I assume he’s spent sixty years being massively bothered by this. [ @lagoonnebula6523 said that the director of series 1 and 2 hinted that the reason for this mistake would be revealed in a future series, which I think points to an in universe explanation. Thank you for the info, this is super cool to know!] [Small aside, but I remember googling why the ribbons would be worn upside down and what i found was neat but probably unrelated. Check the tags if you’re interested]
I believe he’s in a service dress, which basically means he was at some kind of event when he died. He’s not in the army equivalent of the white tie, so we’re not talking about something too fancy. Maybe some sort of minor party?
So yeah, dude died after the war ended, and considering he seems used to saying “king” instead of “queen” I feel like he died either before Elizabeth was crowned or just after, so somewhere between August 1945 and around 1953-55
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Not to take the wrong point from your post about Helen and Menelaus - Bc I fully agree and I also hate people portraying Helen as vain - but I had been under the impression that boob-showing when you were about to be killed, was a woman’s way of reminding the men about female vulnerability? Like in a symbolic “here are my gentle lady breasts, they feed babies like your mother fed you” to make them feel like the monsters they were about to be. I never read your two specific versions you mentioned so I don’t know the context of the scene with Helen, but I was told in an art history class that was an accepted way for a woman to plea for mercy… did it read that way at all in the two versions?
hi there!! oh no you're totally right. in a way.
clytemnestra bares her breasts to orestes before she is killed for this very reason. she IS his mother. her breasts did feed him as a child, is he really capable of killing her after all she did? so that is a reading of such actions. HOWEVER. i dont think it applied with all women and all men. like. hecuba does something similar to hektor - again, a mother with her son.
i dont think it would have had the same effect between husband and wife, yknow? YES helen would have fed her and menelaus' babies from her breasts - but not menelaus. the examples you mainly see are mothers pleading to sons.
in regards to the versions i mentioned as well, there is ALWAYS a .... leaning towards her appearance. it never mentions that these men (menelaus included) feel bad upon seeing helen this way. that they see her vulnerable or exposed.
in EURIPIDES' ANDROMACHE peleus says:
The moment you [Menelaus] saw her [Helen] naked breasts, you dropped your sword to the ground and ran into her arms! You kissed that evil, traitorous slut and uttered sweet, fawning words to her! That’s how much of a match you are to the calls of lust! There, too, you are found to be nothing but a coward, a slave to Aphrodite!
and YES he goes to her and says nice things (perhaps an indication of seeing her as weak and helpless??? as someone pleading for mercy) BUT there is a heavy lean to him being overcome by lust and aphrodite taking a hold of him - all relating to matters sexual and romantic. not really appealing to his morals. yknow??? he sees her breasts and is overcome with lust. that wouldn't happen if he was seeing her in an exposed and vulnerable state and he was coming to terms with his actions.
again in ARISTOPHANES' LYSISTRATA we get:
When Menelaus saw the apples of the naked Helen, he dropped, I believe, his sword
** the Little Iliad seems to be where this idea comes from, I think????
again. a focus on how she LOOKS. the size and shape of her breasts are discussed here (but yes aristohpanes was a comic)
some accounts don't even mention her breasts, but again its her APPEARANCE that stops menelaus. i wont bore and overquote but QUINTUS' FALL OF TROY has menelaus not kill her because he just thinks she's too beautiful.
Menelaus mid the inner chambers found at last his wife, there cowering from the wrath of her bold-hearted lord. He glared on her, hungering to slay her in his jealous rage. But winsome Aphrodite curbed him, struck out of his hand the sword, his onrush reined, jealousy's dark cloud swept she away, and stirred love's deep sweet well-springs in his heart and eyes. Swept o'er him strange amazement: powerless all was he to lift the sword against her neck, seeing her splendour of beauty.
STESICHORUS is fragmentary, but again it's her general appearance that stop the men from hurting her.
Was it because they saw Helen’s beauty that they did not use their swords? Stesichorus too describes something like this concerning the people who were intending to stone her. For he says that as soon as they saw her appearance, they let the stones fall to the ground.
EVEN IN PLAYS that talk about the aftermath of troy (trojan women, euripides) helen is considered to have the power to change mens hearts by her APPEARANCE alone.
Hekabe: Praise you, Menelaos for wanting to kill your wife. But let not her eyes fall upon yours or she will tempt your passion again.
ULTIMATELY. i dont think (personally) this meaning can be applied to helen. SIMPLY BECAUSE in some versions, she never uses her breasts at all. just her appearance, but in some they take it further and imply its her naked form that just drives the men WILD. but it's always her looks that save her. her entire naked body. her face. her breasts. SOMETHING about how helen LOOKS saves her. there's never an indication of her appearing vulnerable or weak or scared. there's no account of the men seeing her this way. NOW. she may have done it and MEANT it this way, but everyone's just took it the wrong way BUT there's far too much emphasis on her appearance for me to see it like that. and in a lot of references to menelaus sparing her, there is a mention to lust or aphrodite - again. it's because she's attractive and she's just TOO beautiful that she's being saved. and i think it just fits too neat, yknow? the beautiful helen of troy using her beautiful looks to save her life. she was even too beautiful to die. THAT sounds more like that narrative people would have took with this.
so whilst the breast-baring aBSOLUTELY has another meaning in some ancient works and it's not always sexual or romantic or to do with appearance and manipulation like we may see it now. i don't see that being the case with THIS example. perhaps that was the POINT of it. to really paint helen in such a bad light that she bastardised this common symbol of pleading and desperate women. she twisted it to suit her needs cause he breasts and her beauty far outsell those other women. .......... or so the ancient men would say. ig.
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