#and that’s without even mentioning the queerbaiting

[smilingbuckley]

So Oliver and Ryan can't even talk about Buddie's friendship and their views on it without being accused of 'shameless queerbaiting'.

I love Buddie to death, but leave them alone. Oliver didn't say shit for years because of fans accusing him of queerbaiting when he was just excited about how fans love the character and have their own theories. He's finally opening up again and boom, back are the people with 'this is shamelessy queerbaiting.'

Even if it were, which it really isn't because never did they say Buddie would get together, you think him being careful of his words is shameless? It seems more like he knows how toxic this fandom can be and he doesn't want to deal with people twisting his words like they always do.

And he's not a writer. He doesn't have control over it. So stop blaming the actors! Stop treating them like shit the second someone mentions Buddie

#oliver stark #ryan guzman #911 #evan buckley #buddie #eddie diaz #911 abc #911 on abc #abc

[supervisionx]

I keep seeing posts that Hannibal is queerbait (not necessarily on Tumblr but it's really prevalent on Twitter and tiktok) so I'm going to break down how it is NOT queerbait under 'keep reading' (long ass rant ahead)

I'm going to use Supernatural and Sherlock as an example because they are both pretty infamous for queerbaiting, but this isn't to make fun of those shows altogether.

In both Supernatural and Sherlock, the main 'ships' are between Sherlock Holmes / John Watson and Castiel / Dean Winchester. In their respective shows, there is almost nothing stopping them from getting together. In both cases, they are friends, have good chemistry, spend a frequent amount of time together, and do not have any significant others. The only thing stopping them from being in a relationship is that one or both of them are presumably straight or are simply not in love with each other.

In Hannibal, however, one is an FBI agent, and the other is a serial killer. There is an in-show reason that would stop (especially Will Graham) from wanting to be in a relationship with the other despite personal feelings. Even in earlier seasons, when Will Graham did not know Hannibal was a serial killer, Hannibal was still his therapist.

Next, what makes the queerbait stand out especially in Sherlock and Supernatural, is that every time anything is suggested between the two popular ships, it is often played off as a joke.

Think of the scene in Sherlock where John fumbles asking Sherlock if he has a boyfriend. The scene where Sherlock is about to kiss Moriarty is presented as a flashback by a crazy fan (making fun of the viewer for thinking Sherlock could be in a male/male relationship)

In Supernatural, there is a scene where castiel is alluded to being teleported naked on top of Dean's car, dialog such as "Get out of my ass" "I was never in your..." and an awkward pause. These are all one-off jokes, scenes, etc. Meant to allude to queerness without having to actually commit to it.

In Hannibal, however, no scene that alludes to queerness is played as a joke. Hannibal is genuine when he says he cares for Will, when he is worried the other man has died, the constant touches, and where he compares their relationship to Achilles and Patroclus. (Do I even have to mention the "Is Hannibal... In love with me?" Scene?)

"But Hannibal and Will never kissed / never had a relationship!"

Okay, it's fair to be upset that the pair never kissed or had a full relationship established, but you have to remember Hannibal was canceled. Sherlock and Supernatural both came to their conclusions naturally and decided to continue never establishing a proper relationship between their queerbaited characters.

(I'm not counting that scene where castiel says "I love you" to Dean and gets sent to Super Hell as a relationship. You could argue that this makes Castiel explicitly queer and therefore not queerbait, but it still feels more like executives doing the same thing as the joke part of this argument; not wanting to commit to making him queer and throwing in a one-off line. Plus, this does not excuse baiting Dean as queer and baiting the relationship between Dean and Castiel as more than friendship)

However, Hannibal never got to reach its natural conclusion. More seasons were planned, in which the creator of the show explicitly stated he wanted to explore the relationship between Hannibal and Will more in those seasons before being canceled. Being upset that they never kissed / had a relationship does NOT mean the show was queerbait.

#hannibal #supernatural #bbc sherlock #queerbaiting #hannibal fandom #hannibal lecter #nbc hannibal #will graham #long reads #long post

[novalunosiss]

It’s almost been 24 hours since vol 2 came out and I’m still super pissed off, so here’s a list of everything wrong in volume 2.

Byler. Queerbait of the fucking century??? I would’ve been significantly less upset if they hadn’t advertised/marketed it so hard during pride month. And making the queer kid the sad gay vessel through which the straight couple thrives is nothing short of homophobic.

The deaths. They advertised this season as being particularly dangerous/full of death, which was a straight up lie. The only people who died were either antagonists or minor background characters, with the exception of Eddie (though it was extremely obvious from the start that he was canon fodder, much like Bob- despite how much I liked Eddie’s character, there was never a doubt in my mind that he wasn’t going to die.)

Max’s “death”. So I know I just did a section on the deaths but this one pissed me off so much I had to give it it’s own seperate section. Max’s “death” was a total copout. Don’t get me wrong, I love her character. But I wish she did die. Having someone die and be brought back to life is such a terrible, cliche, overused trope. It’s too safe of a choice. Where is the danger? I want to actually be scared that the characters I love might not make it out alive. And since when could El bring people back to life? That’s never been explored in the show before, making it completely out of place and confusing when watching the scene. Having Max die would’ve been impactful, and shown to the audience that any of the characters can die, not just new ones, or unimportant background ones. It would’ve raised the stakes! The scene where she “died” was heartbreaking and powerful, but then they negated that by bringing her back to life, rendering the scene pointless. They either should’ve actually genuinely killed her, or not have her “die” at all. Having that “in-between” sort of situation where she technically died, but came back to life (albeit in a coma) was super flaky, and imo, bad writing.

Speaking of bad writing, the time skip! This is genuinely one of the worst things I’ve seen implemented in the show. I generally don’t like time skips anyway, but at least the one at the end of s3 made sense. The main drama of that season was resolved, and they needed to show the Byers moving away. The time skip this season, however, made 0 fucking sense. The drama hadn’t been resolved, it just skipped like half of the climax and the entirety of the falling action, and went straight to the resolution (which wasn’t even a resolution at all). 2 days is a pretty big time skip to implement after skipping half the climax. What happened during those two days??? It was confusing as fuck, and none of the characters actions/behaviour during the “resolution” phase of the story made sense, maybe with the exception of Dustin and Lucas, who were shown to be grieving unlike almost everyone else. You’re telling me that Nancy, Robin and Steve just fought fucking Vecna, almost died, and some of their friends did die (if you count Max) and two days later they’re happily packing up a bunch of old belongings to donate, without a care in the world? And during that scene, there seemed to be little to no concern about Mike’s whereabouts from the entire Wheeler family until he actually showed up. They mentioned they’d been trying to contact them for days, but nothing about their demeanour beforehand implied concern.

The monologue. Need I even say more? It was cheesy, cringey, and made no narrative sense. The reasoning Mike gave for being unable to tell El he loved her was one of the stupidest reasons I’ve seen in media, ever. Where was the “amazing monologue” we were promised by the Duffers? That sure as hell isn’t what I’d call amazing. Finn is a great actor, and he’s done amazing monologues before (*cough cough*, the shed scene) so that isn’t on him, it’s on the shitty script. “I feel like my life first started when I met you in the woods”? Bullshit, and such a cruel thing to say in front of Will, who’s life was literally turned upside down on the exact same day. “I loved you since the moment I saw you”? Love at first sight is a cringey trope. Mike was 12 when he first met Eleven. He probably didn’t even know the meaning of love, especially when you take a look at how dysfunctional his parents marriage is/Nancy, his older sisters relationship at the time was. Also, how can he say he loved her the moment he saw her when he spent most of s1 trying to get rid of her (saying he was going to send her back to pennhurst) and calling her a “weapon”? El could’ve found strength to beat Vecna in something far more significant than a teenage boy telling her he loves her, but noooo.

Will’s painting. I really feel like I don’t have to elaborate on this one. It just fucking sucked. They built it up like it was going to be some really important declaration of love from Will to Mike, only to have it be used to help further Mileven. Also the actual painting was ass, and all the fan theories about it were way better and more meaningful. (Like the idea we all had of the swingset where Mike and Will first met, or even just a painting of the two of them as their D&D characters, but SEPERATE from the rest of the group so it was actually obvious what the painting meant.)

The upside down thing with Henry?? I don’t even know what’s going on there. It was super confusing. Is the mind flayer actually Henry? Did El create the upside down or was it there before? Why did it look like that when Henry first got sent there, but looks like Hawkins now? I know they’ll likely answer these questions next season, but there’s just too many questions and knowing now how shit the duffers are at writing, I doubt they’ll all be answered satisfactorily.

The terrible character development. By that, I mean that there was none. Literally no characters had any development. They were all exactly the same as they were at the start of the season. El is still dependent on Mike/isn’t her own person. Mike is still a fucking asshole who treats his friends like shit. Will is still in the closet and hiding his true feelings from everyone around him. Nancy and Jonathan are still lying to each other. Steve is still pining after Nancy. Robin is still pining after Vickie. I could go on and on.

The Duffers hate minorities + poor people. Will and Robin, the two queer characters, don’t get well rounded love interests like all of the straight characters, and Will in particular is made to suffer constantly. Lucas and Erica, the two black characters, are both physically assaulted. Max and Eddie, the two poorest characters, who are living in a trailer park, fucking die. (from @hellfireds) Oh, also? The Duffers filmed parts of s4 in a fucking Nazi prison, where Jewish people were held against their wills and killed. (from @artmuseumsandoldbooks)

I’m going to keep updating this list as I think of more things that are wrong with vol 2. There’s already so many things I could add if I decided to include the shit wrong with vol 1 as well, but vol 2 was significantly worse so I’m just gonna stick to that. Feel free to suggest anything else I should add to the list

In conclusion, FUCK THE DUFFERS

#stranger things #byler #stranger things spoilers #st spoilers #stranger things season 4 #st4 spoilers #stranger things 4 spoilers #will byers #mike wheeler #byler tumblr #stranger things theory #Byler doubt #stranger things season 4 spoilers #stranger things s4 #eleven stranger things #nancy wheeler #steve harrington #fuck the duffers #Duffer brothers #more like suffer brothers #suffer brothers #Dustin Henderson #Lucas Sinclair #Max mayfield #Eddie Munson

[ilovedthestars]

and also just. the way ambiguity in relationships is assumed to be romantic, too. see, i wrote that whole post a while back about how I loved ambiguous fictional relationships, with deep devotion but no clear label as to the type of relationship. i called it love as in significance--that's where my tag comes from. love as in being important to someone, in whatever form that takes.

and what I said then about how this applies to romance still applies--when I'm reading about a fictional romance, I'll be much more engaged with one that feels built on that foundation of significance than one that isn't. flirting, the trappings of modern courtship, those feel empty to me without the feeling that these characters already matter to each other. (this is why in real life I'm so perplexed by things like dating apps, or people who actively seek out romance with strangers--I just personally can't fathom the idea of wanting that kind of closeness with someone you don't already know and care for.)

but in regards to ambiguity....I feel like I've been burned a little. I loved ambiguity because it meant you could take many things away from it. other people could see romance, but I could see the kind of deeply devoted platonic relationship that, let's be honest, is incredibly rare in fiction. but I'm starting to feel frustrated by the way ambiguity is assumed to be romance, without an explicit statement that it's not. (I've joked about the obligatory "no hetero" moments that have to be inserted into the start of a piece of media that has a male and a female protagonist with any kind of relationship other than romance--the "not with those lips" moment in the D&D movie, for example. It's funny, and i appreciate it being made very clear, but it's kind of sad that it has to be.)

and...okay, there's an elephant in the room that i really should acknowledge. I was talking about it in that first post, but I made a point of never mentioning it, although i'm sure plenty of people guessed.

I haven't watched Good Omens season two. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to. When I first wrote about my love for ambiguous relationships back in February of 2023, Aziraphale and Crowley were at the top of my list. When I wrote about how ambiguity left room for anyone to see themselves represented, and how i wished that a little more space was left for aro voices, I was talking about them. I was frustrated by people who saw that ambiguity as "queerbaiting"--didn't they see that the story was already queer, that Aziraphale and Crowley cared so deeply for each other, and whether they kissed or not wouldn't change anything?

But they did kiss. And it did change something. I don't feel like there's a place left for me anymore. And there's social pressure to celebrate, to be happy for another canon queer love story on TV, and god I'd love to celebrate that, but I can't help but feel a little betrayed by a story that I thought would leave space for me.

(and yes, a kiss doesn't have to mean romance--but in this, in hollywood, it's assumed to. the creators and the audience both understand it as such, unless someone stops to say no, we're friends who kiss each other the mouth, we're subverting your expectations. because the expectations are inescapable.)

I've been trying to give myself the space to feel upset about this. To remember that aro stories are queer stories too. And I think I'm raising my standards. I'll take ambiguity--I'll take any carved-out space I can find. But I'm not sure I trust it anymore. I want explicitly platonic relationships with the level of love and devotion and care usually reserved for romance. I want to read and watch and listen to stories about people who are significant to each other without romance even being in the picture. I want love that isn't synonymous with romance. I'm going to stop feeling like I have to settle for anything less.

#stars has thoughts #aro thoughts #love as in significance #platonic love #amatonormativity #aphobia #sorry for not tagging this go2 spoilers but it's been a while and i think everyone's either seen it or given up avoiding spoilers #and i frankly don't want to put this anywhere near a good omens tag #also: as usual this is a complaint about broader media trends that can't be solved by a few counter examples #BUT i will still take media recs especially from fellow aspecs #i need more platonic love stories in my life

[letzoespoilyou]

Marvel thoughts!!

I will never move on from Tony Stark, I have and will always love him. Without him the MCU will never be the same for me.

I will always ship Ironstrange, it's too beautiful and just makes me super happy.

I will continue to hold out hope for Lokius even though I know marvel is queerbaiting me.

I adore Loki as a character and want all their queer rep to be realised on screen but for now at least it got mentioned I suppose and we did get Vote Loki which I appreciated.

I will always be upset that my hot monster Gorr the God Butcher wasn't as sexy in the film as the comics and he just wasn't done justice.

I will be thankful for the hot mess that is the Venom movies and it's awakening of my symbrock loving monster fucker heart.

I'm still disappointed that they didn't do Carnage right, looked great but not enough murder and villainous behaviour and too much random romance subplot.

I'm still super happy that Spiderman gave me the wonderful hot and sexy Willem Dafoe as the Green Goblin and then he was even hotter and badass in the most recent film!

#loki #marvel #ironman #ironstrange #tony stark #stephen strange #doctor strange #lokius #venom #veddie #eddie brock #symbrock #carnage #gorr the god butcher #green goblin

[therealrainbowmadness]

The downfall of media representation: a look at the massive cancelation tide of queer-woman-led shows of 2022

A little more than a year ago, I published a piece on what I called “the queer renaissance” where I reminisced on Lexa’s legacy (The 100) and showed optimism on the representation scenario given the variety of shows airing or to be aired with queer woman among their characters, and the grand amount of WLW couples in committed relationships that had on-screen marriages between 2020 and 2021. But even then, when things were still looking up representation-wise, I pointed that a cloud of worry was coming due to the end of many beloved shows that featured queer characters. There, I mentioned Black Lightning (Grace and Thunder), The Bold Type (Kat and Adena), Supergirl (Alex and Kelly), Brooklyn99 (Rosa), Atypical (Casey and Izzie), Genera+ion (Riley and Greta), Dickinson (Emily and Sue), Motherland Fort Salem (Raelle and Scylla) and Killing Eve (Eve and Villanelle). Little did I know that my optimism was foolish and that the worry brought by the end of the above-mentioned shows would only grow stronger after a very disturbing 2022.

The first cancelation tide came in April. When rumors started regarding the selling of The CW, queer fans immediately started worrying for their beloved shows, specifically for DC Legends of Tomorrow and Batwoman. Turns out they had a reason to worry because even before the network was sold by Paramount and Warner Bros. Discovery to Nextstar, The CW axed a long list of names from their portfolio. The shock was evident since The CW traditionally renewed their shows and allowed departing series to have a final “goodbye” season, as they did with Supergirl. But what called everyone’s attention was the fact that Legends of Tomorrow last-airing season (the seventh of their run) had done great regarding to critics and ratings. It also had more views than shows that would get renewed, like Riverdale. Media outlets later revealed that the apparent cause for cancelation was that the uncertain future of the network at that point led Warner Bros. to not want to commit to another long-term lease on the sound stages in Vancouver. The fact that they also did not renew their deal with Netflix for distributing content largely affected their revenues as well. Not to say that any of these issues did not play major parts on the future of our beloved shows, the fact remains that series that were in similar conditions, that is, also shot in Vancouver, also distributed by Netflix, and with similar or lower ratings and approval from critics, were renewed. In contrast, Legends of Tomorrow and Batwoman were not. The difference between then and the ones that got renewed: both were led by woman who loved other woman. And one of then was led by a black woman.

           It was not easy moving on from such losses and being left without a proper ending to beloved characters and couples. But the cancelation wave did not slow down. Gentleman Jack was canceled in July by HBO. Despite BBC’s desire to move forward with the show, they still needed HBO as a co-producer and global distributor. It was hypothesized that the gap between the first and second seasons, caused by the pandemic, led to lower ratings and, thus, cancelation. But the untold reality was that HBO somewhat sabotaged the show by changing its time slot to air in the US and not pushing as much publicity for season 2. This kind of approach reminded me of the way Nickelodeon treated The Legend of Korra, constantly changing its time slot and ultimately moving it to streaming for the fourth and final season. Korra was a pioneer in queer representation for animated series.

The Wilds was canceled after a second season mostly focused on new male characters instead of the group of girls that led the first season, including the couple Shelby and Tony. Some shows had briefer runs, like Prime Video’s Paper Girls and Netflix’s First Kill. So short indeed that it makes me believe that genre TV for sapphics is the ultimate streaming queerbaiting. It is worth mentioning that many people, including LGBTQIAP+, stated that these shows were better off being canceled since they were poorly scripted and had terrible CGI. Addressing these issues, I have to say that poor visual effects never stopped series from getting renewed (just see Supernatural) and shows with really horrible scripts are constantly made and renewed by streaming platforms (Netflix’s Elite is a perfect example). However, I do not agree that they are badly scripted at all. Despite heavy criticism, First Kill had an expressive number of views and ranked well in Netflix’s Top 10 in many countries, also showing great numbers on socials which were at least comparable to Heartstopper (already renewed by Netflix).

But it was not enough for Netflix to cancel First Kill, and the news about the cancelation of Warrior Nun hit colder than ice. Warrior Nun was already a beloved show that grew its audience during the pandemic. Although some had reservations for the first season because of a possible queerbaiting, this possibility was erased by season 2 and the beautiful slow-burn romance between Ava and Beatrice. The momentum the show gained by the launch of its second season was impressive and it was impossible to go through the Twitter timeline without seeing some post or photo related to the show or Avatrice. The impact was so big that made people go back and watch the first season as well. Rotten Tomatos season 2 critic ratings were 100% and audience score was 99% with 7925 reviews. In fact, season 2 had the highest Netflix audience rating ever. The audience, already aware of Netflix MO, grew the engagement of the series on social media, despite Netflix showing zero effort for advertising the new season whatsoever. And again, despite the great ratings, views and engagement, the show got axed without much explanation, leaving a passionate audience with multiple unsolved cliffhangers.

Netflix, having one of the largest portfolios among networks and streaming platforms, is naturally the home of many shows with LGBTQIA+ characters. It does not feel like a coincidence that these shows, especially the ones featuring lesbian and bisexual woman, are the main targets for cancelation. The cycle continues: platforms pick up shows with a queer character for producing to fill the diversity box; they offer little to no support for the people involved on the actual making of the show, offering lower budgets compared to other equivalent series; besides the low production value, they also put little effort on advertising these series, making very hard for the show to do well outside the queer bubble; still, some audience, specially queer woman, sign to that platform to watch the series, grow attached to the characters, ship the couples, engage on social media, and do what they can for it to get to as many people as possible, since the network or streaming is doing virtually nothing in this regard; ultimately, the show either performs poorly as far as visualizations, mostly due to the sabotage of their own producing platform that offered a low production and advertising value, or performs well, but never well enough to them. In the latter case, it feels like woman-led shows are always held to a much higher standard than the male-led ones, having to do so much better to get same recognition. Misogyny and lesbophobia are the two words that come to mind describing this heartbreaking cycle.

At the end of the day, what we are left with? Series that give terrible endings to their sapphic characters, like Killing Eve. Series that are giving us kind of a bad type of representation, like The L Word Gen. Q season 3 (destroying character evolution and pushing outdated plots). Series with great representation which we are so afraid to get attached to just so we’d be disappointed again (like A League of Their Own and Sex Live of College Girls). And series that we will never even know the ending (choose any of the above-mentioned series). It is worth pointing out that all the fandoms are fiercely fighting for their shows to get pick up by other platforms and find new homes, as they should. A great example that the fight is worth fighting is Wynonna Earp. The show was canceled after its third season, leaving the audience with many cliffhangers. The fans fought hard and SyFy pick up the series for two more seasons. Ultimately, season 5 never happened, and its only owned to the creator Emily Andras, who did not want to make the same mistakes as season 3 and leave multiple loose ends, that we got a satisfying beautiful ending at season 4. But even with only one extra season, it was so worth it. And one final season could be all we needed to feel a sense of closure for all these falling series.

It is worth highlighting that LGBTQIAP+ representation is so important for so many people to recognize themselves in the characters and feeling less alone in this world, for helping people accept themselves, come out to their families, and just to normalize in general the existence of LGBTQIAP+ people in all sorts of environments and genres. We are currently seeing undoubtedly a major regression on how media approaches representation in general. We started back then being either sexualized or straight up killed, evolved into great characters with diverse well-thought-out plots, only to now have our shows canceled. And, although we are all exhausted, we cannot go down without a fight. A unified fight with all fandoms from canceled shows. As we did in 2016 after Lexa’s death, we need to make our points to major media outlets, go after the sponsors of the platforms, make a fuss in social media, look for alternatives. I still hope that, together, we have the power to make a difference if not for the series that were already canceled, to at least avoid that the shows that are still running or just starting to have a similar fate.

#lgbt #lgbt community #queer #representation #lexa #clexa #avatrice #warriornun #firstkill #calliete #gentlemenjack #batwoman #legends of tommorow #papergirls #wynonna earp #sex lives of college girls #a league of their own #the l world generation q #killing eve

[mkuliatruther]

MK's (and MKulia's) odds according to EP9-13 leaks. (Spoilers, obvi.)

hey all! i have too many thoughts and instead of going on a long ramble on my priv i thought i could.. y'know.. actually share my thoughts for once! i'm gonna say this right now that my thoughts may leave a rather negative tongue, so if mkulia (or mk!) is ur comfort and u don't wanna hear anything bad i suggest not reading this!! without further ado, time to ramble!

i'll talk about MK first before i talk about my thoughts on MKulia. right off the bat: she's getting eliminated EP9. this just goes without saying i think but i want to elaborate on this more. in EP8 we have: raj | wayne | julia | MK | caleb | priya | damien | zee in EP10 we see damien:

in EP12 we see caleb:

and in EP11 we see wayne and raj's clothes:

and going back to EP10's description, both julia and priya are mentioned:

AS FAR AS EP9 GOES, this leaves: raj | wayne | julia | MK | caleb | priya | damien MK is not mentioned nor seen. at all. and yes, raj is left up in the air as well but at least there is higher hopes for our silly guy. there has been the popular theory of "well, raj may have given wayne his hoodie to remember him!" but... i think the odds of that are low? raj gifting wayne something before getting eliminated is very plausible, but i see no reason as to why he'd give away his hoodie to him? i feel like if that was the case he would have given wayne something else IMO. even if we don't take it at full face value, there's still a very low chance that MK's safe from elimination (and she'd probably be safe for like another 2 episodes if she were to be safe EP9. the odds of her being a finalist are also incredibly low). after being outed as a cheater, she hasn't been doing all that well in challenges either and since EP9's challenge has to do something with breaking objects, i can only imagine how well she'd do with that. and MKulia can make their alliance not-so-obvious-and-not-so-strong for so long. people are gonna want to break them up. now let's say MK's out EP9. this leaves both priya and julia as the only female contestants remaining in the game. and assuming they're going to add a female finalist it's going to be julia. and ALSO assuming we're going to get helpers for the finale, we MAY get more mkulia content. it's not that bad! may i also add EP9's title is 'Breaking Up Is Hard To Do' while yes this is about prileb, this could also be about mkulia. with mk getting eliminated, julia has to deal with fighting on her own. and we know very well that julia cares for MK, platonic or not. So what does this mean for MKulia? people fail to realize what mk getting eliminated means. we get to see how julia deals with it (unless she just moves on and doesn't care like what priya kind of did when millie got eliminated ... i'd cry.)

plus, if MK does get eliminated next episode we'll have more MKulia content in EP9 without a doubt. there's still so many questions left unanswered and i'm sure those will be resolved before MK goes home. and honestly, i have high hopes. i think MKulia will end off on a sweet note. do i think we'll get canon MKulia? absolutely not. it'd be really nice, but i doubt it. at best, it'll probably be up to viewers interpretation whether or not julia's care for MK comes from a romantic or platonic standpoint. i think that's how far we're going to get. calling it queer bait is a little bit of an exaggeration IMO, then again i am very picky with the fandoms i am in so i don't really know what it's like to ship something that is possibly queerbait. we just gotta buckle up and endure whatever BS will get thrown at us MKulia nation. o7

and hopefully i am very wrong about this. i have extremely low expectations so i can be happy if im wrong LMFAO!!

#mkulia #tdi 2023 #tdi julia #tdi mk #td mkulia #tdi reboot #im so normal #rambles

[follivora]

what I don't understand is that why people are calling whatever jan & nace are doing "performative" and "queerbaiting" (ffs) , while being seemingly okay with jere, who's out there fully gaying it up with every single man that comes within five feet of him, while being in a steady relationship with a woman (and probably straight?). this must sound like I'm bashing jere, and I'm absolutely not, I love him, and I commend him for pushing the boundaries. but it's just interesting and weird to me that is he allowed to play with his identity like that, but if jan and nace do it, even just a little bit, it's performative queerbaiting. that smells like hypocrisy.

this is exactly what i cant wrap my head around either. i do love jere to death and i do love him just doing whatever he likes and whoever he likes for that matter, but exactly as you said, out of all of the guys, he's the only one in a confirmed relationship at the moment but we all love him and his boyfriends right. JO are probably all single rn because of their insane schedule, but even if they weren't, nace and jan never pretended to be dating? i dont know what they have but its fucking beautiful, they very apparently adore each other and they love to be close to each other, it can be fucking platonic and thats okay but its real? why would they fake it? what would a guitarist and a bass player with 30k followers each would get from it?

how dare you like say that jan, who's always been super comfortable with being close to men, said his crushes are male, had a fucking hot line call to be a male, dresses however he wishes and is fucking very open and free minded is queerbaiting? how dare you say that nace, who's had a fucking pride flag profile pic long before becoming famous, has been super comfy with being touchy with every man around him since we've known him, someone with a little fun dingily earring and extremely kind heart would just queerbait and trick fans into thinking something?

the insane attempt at proving that nace and jan are straight first on twitter and now fucking here actually screams of homophobia, i dont see anyone trying to prove that kris is straight 24/7 even tho he mentioned dating someone in the same interviews like nace did, why do you care so much about if nace likes dick or not jesus fuck let him be himself without dragging him down and comparing him to stereotypes

i am not saying they are queer. i am not saying they are not queer. i am just a very strong believer in letting people living their lives, loving people around them and i dont have any reason to think people would fake their existence for getting 128 hundred more likes lmao

[invested-in-your-future]

I am new to rwde stuff, and I'm wondering why Miles is so often singled out in criticism? Like, with self-insert stuff that makes sense, but I also see people criticize the relics/gods worldbuilding as a Miles thing, without mention of Kerry. Same for similar criticisms like the plot driving them into a corner in v10, or the mishandling of the WF plot line. Is there a reason for that, or is it holdover from not liking him for the self-insert? Is he the one who talks about it the most, or has he specifically claimed responsibility for that, or he writes more than Kerry, or something? Is it because he just seems to be the more public of the two of them, doing things like his cameos? Is he simply the more unlikable one? Thank you in advance, if you answer this question.

I think it is that, yeah - Miles is the one most often putting his foot in his mouth with weird hot takes that come back to bite him.

Him being tasked by Monty to watch a bunch of anime to see what NOT to do and ending up gushing about sword art online and loving the one soul eater character he was supposed to understand about being crass?

Him going on an off-tangent rant about how Korra world building is bad only to then rip off parts of that lore and it all end up a mess.

Him ranting how on how LGBTQ+ rep in Korra has absolutely no build up only for BB ending up getting ZERO PROPER DEVELOPMENT that it SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN FOR VOLUMES (because the show was too busy queerbaiting) and only getting a desperate kiss to attempt to get the views back up... (Mind you Korra was under a LOT of network restrictions and actually doing what the show did took actual guts while the only excuse RT has for dancing around the topic is "we don't wanna")

Him watching Land of Lustrous (a show about an immortal being experiencing trauma and PTSD and dealing with grief and existential crisis) and going "I don't get it" and then delivering the absolute messy v9 nonsense that literally vilifies trauma and goes against basic mental wellness concepts.

There's a trail of Miles stepping on the same rake over and over again going back years so he kind of became the face of all the wrong decisions taken in the show.

Plus, you know, yeah, Jaune is his baby and he somehow ends up being the faux protagonist of the show leeching off the screen time of actual protagonists and getting more development and focus than actual protagonists. And him being the guy to whom "the idea of brother gods came to in a dream" and it's easy to see why he kind of became the poster child for everything bad in the show.

However, Kerry is just as guilty for a lot of aspects of the writing but people are bit more lenient because again two worst parts of the show - Jaune and brother gods both come from Miles.

RWBY having borderline nonsensical setting and offensive problematic writing is a group effort though because RT as a whole never grew out of the "edgy homophobic jokes machinima youtuber" phase - not even after becoming a company that owns million dollar franchises.

#rwby #rwde #rwby asks

[sevensoulmates]

Okay what we're NOT gonna do is be mean and condescending to new people joining the fandom for the first time because of the news about Bi Buck.

Yes, we have always had canon gay characters on the show in Hen, Karen, Michael, and Josh, but you have to realize that FOX was not marketing them properly, or at all for that matter. And Henren or Michael/David moments didn't trend anywhere online so they didn't have a lot of visibility outside of our fandom spaces anyway.

Also we have to keep in mind that all of the characters I listed were introduced on the show (in the very first episode that aired in 2018 mind you) as gay/lesbian, so there was no subversion of expectations for them. Buck coming out as bi is shocking to a lot of people because 1.) he was not introduced as Bi but as a very Straight playboy and 2.) it's been 7 years into the game and we now get to have him be queer in the year 2024 in addition to all our other lovely queer characters.

Buck is the first main character on the show to be Bisexual. All of the other queer characters are gay/lesbian (which is amazing obviously) but this bisexual representation is a first for 911. Bisexuality is often under-represented and/or misrepresented (especially on Ryan Murphy created shows don't even get me started). So this is a big deal for a lot of people.

AND let's also keep in mind that Buck is 1/2 of a HUGE ship that people have been wanting to go canon for 6 years that finally actually got to be queer. Of course that's gonna generate a lot of buzz. Not to mention this show was unfairly accused of queerbaiting for years so of course a bunch of new people are gonna tune in when that's "proven wrong" even when there was no queerbaiting to begin with.

Also it's now been proven by the network change that FOX had something to do with stifling Buck (and maybe Eddie we'll see) from being openly queer for a while now. That is real oppression that we're now seeing rectified on ABC, and it's natural for new people to want to tune in to watch now.

And let me also remind you that Michael and David were written off the show almost 2 seasons ago and Josh is a side character without storylines of his own most of the time so 911 hasn't had any main character queer male rep in a while. People are allowed to want queer male rep in their TV shows in addition to queer female rep.

Lastly, since apparently it has to be spelled out, people join fandoms for the first time all the time for literally any reason. This reason happens to be getting a lot of press and eyes on it and a lot of people are rejoicing very loudly so of course we're getting an influx of new fans. Let's not be gatekeep-y and let's also NOT call people festishizers or racist just because they weren't aware there were other queer characters on the show. Don't be an asshole. Simple as that.

#911 abc #fandom #evan Buckley #bisexual representation #hen wilson #karen wilson #michael grant #queer representation #discourse #edited with additions about josh

[pastel--pasta]

the people that are mad about the people that are mad about the queerbait in stranger things 4 simply do not know what queerbait is. it is not about a ship not becoming canon, it is about how queer suffering was used to drive together a straight ship and the destruction of hope for a character that the duffle bags won't even let come out, despite the fact that other characters are allowed to call him slurs or point out that he is different.

this season was about forced conformity, and forced conformity won. eddie, a town pariah for liking alternative things and was coded as queer, even if it might have been unintentional, died while trying to be a hero like his friends, and continued to be seen as evil and inhumane in death. he stuck out and then paid the price, proving that people should conform.

(i could also say that conformity was a double-edged sword in his case, because the moment he decided to conform, wanting to be like his friends who i'm going to assume he viewed as brave, it was what got him killed. there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity, and he played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. damned if you do, damned if you don't).

then, will is consistently trampled on this season. you watch in hopes that maybe he will receive a happy ending, which doesn't have to be byler becoming canon. but no, he continues to suffer to make the others happy, forcing himself to conform to the mold, encouraging his friend by using eleven as a way to pour his heart out to mike. it is then thrown in his face that he will never matter as much as eleven does to mike. mike tells him hawkins won't be the same without him, but doesn't send any letters and joins a new d&d group. not to mention, he tells eleven that his life started on the day he saw her, which happened to be the exact day that will went missing, and could have potentially been killed. there was also a perfect opportunity to come out to jonathan, considering they have been making it obvious jonathan knows something is up, but they don't act on it. it could have been a highlight for will's storyline this season, a silverlining. but nope, he simply self-harms in the form of pushing mike and el together, probably thinking he is some kind of freak that doesn't deserve to be happy. forced conformity is killing him too, even if it might not be in the literal sense like it was for eddie.

i don't know if this was incoherent but yeah.

and before anyone says anything about robin, her potential relationship with vickie was obviously given at the end of the season to try to smoothe over the atrocities they had committed this season. they've done more, do not get me wrong, this was just focused on that.

edit: i forgot to mention this before, but there is additional salt in the wound that they waited the day after pride to release volume two. there was most likely a reason for that, with that reason being they were going to follow a plotline that is harmful to queer audiences, especially younger queer audiences.

#stranger things 4 #stranger things #steddie #eddie munson #byler #will byers

[kaypeace21]

Sigh.Look... I've been thinking . Don't get too excited or optimistic . I just been thinking about how weird some of the parallels are.

"Lost"

Both mike (directly) and Will (indirectly) say they feel "lost" without eachother. But Mike may feel guilty if he believes El is "lost" without him.

"Truth"

Mike seems worried about El not liking his "truth". The "truth" is he misses Will. And Mike says the "truth"(that el may not like to hear ): is that the only reason they're together is because she needed someone positive in her life- and he was just there at the right time ( and it's not romanctic "fate"/"destiny "- just happenstance). Then Mike wheeler pretty much says the opposite to el (in relation to the woods):"love at first sight in the woods " -which is literally something related to fate/destiny.

Like why? Did Mike believe Will's lie - about the confession/painting/ "heart line' being from El ? So he changed his mind about this prior statement- because now he's more secure in his relationship with El (based on thinking Will's words were El's )? Is Mike lying again to El? I do think he loves her but like - is it not romantic (but familial)and some lines aren't 100 percent genuine? But what he thinks El wants to hear? Especially if he thinks those words will save her . And Will is literally encouraging him to say it .

Does Mike just think Will in the car was emotional and crying cause he thinks Will just really cares for his step sibling (el) -and that Will wants m*leven back together because of it? So mike is like "time to conform" - especially cause Will isn't into me . And is encouraging me to be with El.

And, or, is Mike just genuinely confused about his feelings for the 2 and scared to leave El romantically-for something scary and different? Especially if mike doesn't think Will reciprocates. Plus, Mike "cares' about El. And Will says to Mike she "needs' him and is "lost" without him. So he may feel he can't ever break up with her because of obligation, guilt (plus , loving her in a non romantic way).

And does Mike kind of feel like Will's speech -is about both Will's & El's feelings ?

Like.... is it that? Or just weird cliche (plot hole filled) writing. And good old queerbaiting . Cause besides the fact Mike didn't treat el like he fell in " love at first sight" with her (in s1). Mike would have just been a douche to Will and others- cause he's straight and obsessed with el . The fact mike in his love confession to el has lines that Brenner says to her. Is also ick. Especially cause m*leven is compared to family members in every season of the show. Even El defeating vecna after hearing "I love you" from her mother and mike- is another familial parallel. Talked about all the other m*leven /family/brenner parallels from s4 and past seasons- here. Not to mention - Mike needing to feel "needed" by El, and his hero worship of el isn't healthy. The hero line made her feel insecure previously (and it's just another weird parallel since in s4 Hopper was El's "hero"). Plus, they literally never fix their other relationship issues (spying, lying, neglecting their friends for one another,and poor communication). The season literally ends with mike saying El hasn't talked to him much.

Also, I mean again could just be queerbaiting but the fact el/will/mike is also paralleled to vickie/bf/robin. And Vickie has an s.o and is secretly into Robin - could mean something. There's Def some parallels between mike/Will and vickie/ Robin.

And again the framing at the end: (with byler and other romantic pairings next to eachother ) while El is alone next to the same flowers mike picked for her-literally rotting. The fact they also paralleled byler to lumax - it's all suspicious.

I refuse to have hope ... not again God. But i'll mention it anyways... just In case. Cause they're definitely throwing "crumbs" at us bylers. What their intention is, in doing so - is hard to say though.

#byler

[daenerysies]

Honestly, I think the Alicent stans are gleeful about what the show did to Alicent's character because now they can fully indulge in their dislike of Rhaenyra (all Targaryen women because apparently, they're all evil whores who don't fit into the image of a perfect Westerosi Lady), prop up Alicent's "suffering" as something aesthetically pleasing, and fixate on Alicent being a repressed lesbian "betrayed" by her crush and how Rhaenyra is a spoiled brat who abused poor baby Alicent. Don't even get me started on the constant comparisons they make between Sansa Stark and Alicent Hightower. "ALICENT WALKED SO SANSA STARK COULD RUN!" The theme is not only worrisome but nauseating.

that seems to be the case, doesn’t it anon? i think it feels vindicating for them, due to the whole ‘she spent her entire life suffering in the name of duty and honor, she deserves a conciliation prize’ like you mentioned (maybe there’s some deeper trauma that needs to be looked into for some of them idk) as if said 'prize' doesn’t end up costing her her entire family. the way they’ve written her in the show just screams the glorification of abuse. she’s allowed to physically, mentally, and emotionally abuse her own kids in their eyes bc she too was abused, every misdeed she commits is because she was abused, etc. she isn’t allowed to just want her son on the throne despite the set-back it would do to women, she has to have some sort of sob story to make her seem more sympathetic bc women can’t just be against other women without reason (eye roll) or be antagonistic in general without reason. the queer plot-line was also not needed seeing as it was doomed to fail from the start and its existence dives deep into queerbaiting and even racist territory; subsequently, they decided to make the velaryon’s black and then completely sideline laena, rhaenyra’s actual queer love interest, in order to uplift and pair the sad white woman with her instead (which is strange since it seems like most rhaenicent shippers loath rhaenyra, but i digress). she’s not a complex character; she’s one-dimensional, inconsistent, AND the result of hypocritical writers not being able to understand that victimization doesn’t automatically mean interesting.

it also feels like half the time her stan's can’t decide if all of her suffering is bc of the men in her life, or if it’s *somehow* all rhaenyra’s fault that she was put in that position. the show has attempted to switch the power dynamics at play by aging alicent down and rhaenyra up, but it doesn’t work simply bc alicent still has more power than her as queen consort (and still spends around 10 years without otto's influence bullying and ostracizing rhaenyra, which is not how a mother terrified for her children's lives would act in the face of their would-be murderer). furthering that, the lack of critical thinking skills is blatant in this fandom and shows when they attempt to vilify the targaryen's (especially the women, yikes) because they only do so to uplift their own boring favs. show!alicent, and by extension, both media's versions of helaena, are passive characters who conform to and uphold the patriarchy, they’re the perfect type of women for incels and pick-me’s to glomp onto to ‘prove’ they’re not misogynists (see? we DO like women! (only if they’re submissive and don’t fight back ofc)).

the only comparisons between sansa and alicent would be their show characters. only the latter half of got for sansa makes any since comparison wise. she too was a character that was further victimized to make her seem more interesting and righteous in the show writers efforts to make her qitn (and also to further the bullshit mad queen dany plot line). sansa is still quite a compelling character without adding in an unnecessary rape plotline, but if they hadn’t included it the only similarities between these two women are that both are apparently redheads (nope) and bastard-phobic (debatable). that right there is where any and all similarities end. in reality, alicent is the cersei to rhaenyra’s sansa, not the other way around.

the fact that many consumers (especially the women) seem to like the adding of an abuse storyline to these characters is so gross, and really telling of how the media has construed the reaction one should have to gender-based violence (or benevolent sexism). they condemn and pity these characters for what they go through, but in the same breath, praise the writers for adding ‘nuance’ to these women’s stories. worrisome indeed.

#asoiaf #fire and blood #hotd #got #hotd critical #anti alicent hightower #rhaenyra targaryen #laena velaryon #helaena targaryen #sansa stark #daenerys targaryen #anti rhaenicent #anti alicent stans #faye answers #anonymous

[kajaono]

Why comparing the ending of GO2, OFMD and SPN with each other is a) disrespectful toward OFMD and GO and b) takes not into account the big steps we made in LGBTQ representation

During the last days I saw many jokes: Ha ha, every gay person ends up in super hell after their confession." First at all: Of course, if you only take a brief look they all seem the same. Castiel confesses and is sucked into the empty, Ed confosses and is left behind by Stede, Crowley confesses and has to witness Azi leaving him behind. Is there a theme here? Most definitly. But imo the only thing those scenes have in common is the Leaving-part and the confession-part, everything else is so different.

Let me walk you through it. First Destiel, the blueprint, some of you might call it:

I am glad they made Castiel canonly gay and confirmed his love for Dean eventually? Yeah but everything about this was a mess. We had 11 seasons of queerbaiting first. Then he confesses his love, immeditaly gets killed off and is never really mentioned again. The End. Making his love for Dean textual was neither a win for the queer community nor brave nor good storytelling. It was cheap move: "Look how inclusive we are", while actually including gay suffering and bury your gays. This was just a bunch of straight writers and a homophobic studio knowing it is their last season and making actual zero effort to give their queer character a happy end or proper storytelling.

This is nowhere like the endings OFMD and GO gave us.

So why are OFMD and GO different? I will look at them here seperatly and then add a small summary at the end. First OFMD, just because it was aired first.

OMFD

First at all, you need to see the ending in the context of the whole show. The whole show is 100% "Yes Homo". We have non binary, poly, bi and gay people who get treated incredible respectful, human and full of care. This first season always had a very clear end: Stede and Ed will confess their love to each other. " This was never: "Ugh, actually Castiel should have died ten seasons earlier and we actually have no clue what to do with him. He only sticks arounds because fans like him. Here, he is gay, can we NOW finally kill him off?" And don't forget Dean was quickly the next one to be killed by a rusty nail.

Gentlebeard wasn't a simple teary "I love you". It was a well crafted love confession, with a beautiful kiss. This show made a huge step forward in gay comedies imo. With OFMD we finally have a mainstream show that showed that you can write a comedy with an all queer cast without the jokes being about queerness. Its not like ODAAT. I love that show, but Elena always needed to crack a joke about her being a lesbian. But not OFMD. This show said very clear: "We might be all gay here, but the real joke is that they are shit pirates." It showed that it works. Gay topic do not need to be touched carefully, and not every queer character needs suffering or a coming out arc either. This show showed that gay people can just be... be who every they want. And I am sure many shows will follow.

But Stede and Ed were also split up, i hear you say. Yes, but them being split up is part of an story arc. The authors have already confirmed that this show is planned for three seaons, we just finished part 1. This seperation is hence not permantly. Actually quite the opposite. The authors knew how quickly queer shows get cancelled and still took the risk to seperate the main couple as a cliffhanger. And you know what? OFMD showed that queer shows can survive that. It even increased the demand for the show. Like it would have been for a straight couple. It is super common thing to end straight shows with the main heterosexual couple being split up and one rushing to fix the mess. - The end- Some straight shows do that every season finale. (*cough* Scorpions *cough* what?). Also Castiel ending in super hell was permanent, no turning back. This here? In OFMD everyone runs into each other the whole time, no matter how big the ocean is. They will be fine.

Good Omens 2

Good Omens started out completly different then OFMD but kinda has the same outcome as OFMD.

This whole story started as a book about two best friends. And even when it got adapted into a show and the lead actors said: Actually they are in love" But the author still said: "I want to honor the story I wrote with my friend. They love each other, yes, but what kind of love is up to you. Here they are, having a happy end. Everything else is up to you". But then we all asked him for another season. And he started writing it and suddenly had the whole creative freedom. And he saw how big the demand was for queer representation in an major prime show (or in general) and realized times have changes and said: "Fuck it" and just... did it. This is also so HUGE compared with Destiel. We have asked the writers and actors for years to make Destiel canon. They only laughed at us, mocked us and later used "eye fucking" as a joke term in their script. But only going there, after 20 years and taking no risk. Neil did none of those things. He saw the fans, the queer fans, their theories and then just did it.

In the past many showrunner said: "I don't want to make them gay. Its not the story I want to tell/It wouldn't fit the character" Neil proved them wrong. And this is also a huge step imo. Because even today we have really little showrunners who see their fans asking for a queer main lead/queer main lead romance and just doing it. Most showrunner do it never (Supernatural, Bridgerton) or after a lot of bargaining (The Witcher). Neil showed that it doesn't ruin your story. If you care for your characters and know your characters and feel that they want out of the closet, then let them out of the closet. Some showrunners should realize that sometimes the happiness of their characters is more important then their own plan.

And I really hope many showrunners will follow Neils example. Johnlock? Sprik? Idk how many more: "Male friendships where just written differently back then. They are just best friends:" I can witness before I go crazy. I hope Crowley and Azi are only the first to walk out of the closet, I hope many more will follow.

TL:DR. Comparing Destiel with OFMD and GO2 is disesteeming the huge steps we made in LGBTQ representation. If Ineffable Husbands and Gentlebeard would be a straight couple noone would compare them with each other simply because they broke up during a season finale. And this shows how much work we still have to do regarding LGBTQ representation. Now we need to get a renwal, because we are just getting started

#good omens #ineffable husbands #ofmd #destiel

[eisforeidolon]

Okay, today is the kind of day where I really can't just scroll past something like this nonsense without comment [X]. To paraphrase: D/C fans totes loved Jared and really wanted to support Walker but just couldn't because the finale was such a betrayal :( :( :(. We're not hateful for the sake of being bitter, it's just so sad we had to turn on Jared because [implied batshit crazy]! FFS.

First, as if we don't remember how many fucking times hellers attacked Jared over utter bullshit long before the finale. Not only have they always been hateful little shits, they've always lied through their teeth about it. Some post from three years ago doing the same old same old, "Oh we're totally the GOOD side of fandom who never hate anybody, lookit our halos!" song and dance doesn't mean jack shit.

Second, what the fuck do they think being bitter means? "The tv show I was watching refused to cater to me personally by throwing away the core premise and genre of the show, which is totally unfaiiiiir - despite common sense and me being told repeatedly they wouldn't ever do so. Therefore I'm going to quote unquote punish the network and the stars by not watching any of their other shows! So there!" Like ... what? It's absurdly bitter - not to mention childish. Which doesn't even get into the giant black hole of logic that is blaming the actors for the writing which was done by the, y'know, writers.

But let's pretend for a moment it's not inherently bitter (as well as fucking ridiculous) to be butthurt a tv show didn't end in bad OOC fanfic out of nowhere and to blame the actors for it. They still prove it's nothing more than sour grapes bitter shipwar bullshit by ONLY singling out Jared and Walker. If they were really actually trying to avoid supporting the CW and ALL those involved in the finale rightfully disappointing their delusional asses? Misha conspired a year in advance to queerbait them with Castiel's death scene, pitched only as one-sided and with him knowing Castiel wouldn't be in the final two episodes. Jensen knew the ending was centering on the brothers as early as Jared did when they talked with the writers and played just at least as much of a part in adding little touches to make the finale as brother-centric as it was, including removing dialogue mentions of Castiel. Jensen also nodded along with Jared's Denvercon answer about how Castiel's death speech wasn't inherently romantic and added his own concurring opinion. And yet somehow, just by pure coincidence, really, I'm sure! It's only Walker and Jared they decided to boycott - while most of them wandered around proclaiming how happy they were to tune in to TW and GK on the supposedly oh-so-evil CW. But they totes love Jared, really! 🙄 They just can't help personally blaming just him for the finale because if there is a reboot he isn't half their shitty ship there was, like, totally an Easter egg mentioning going to Texas or whatever! Yeah! The finale is totally Walker propaganda!!! So they just couldn't watch only that CW show, though they really really wanted to! 😢

This transparent bullshit was at least funnier when it had hypnotiddies in it.

#destihellers #destiew #spn finale #shipping goggles of inanity

[inevitably-johnlocked]

Hi! I saw that you were theorizing before about Sherlock so I really want two things let out of my chest since I saw the series and I am curious what you think.

First of all, I have always had this theory that Moffat and Gatiss wanted Johnlock as their end-goal. I studied Film and screenwriting which taught me a lot and there is NO WAY they made all those things suggesting that their relationship is keep building from colleague to friends to something else in the first two season just by share accident. There are so many ways they could have done it and I don't believe it that they wanted queer baiting just for the sake of it THIS much without a resolution. I especially not believe it since Gatiss is gay and he should know more. Not to mention that the interviews around the first two seasons were quite telling sometimes that they were not opposed to the idea. Then something happened. My theory is that either the BBC or whoever was charged of Doyle estate and Sherlcok Holmes right (which became free from this year), or maybe even both of them could see where this is going and let Mofftiss know that they can't do that. They are bringing the money and they can call the shots even though they are the creators so they needed to compromise. And you can see they clearly made a turn from Season 3. And I think you can tell about the interviews as well from that period. I believe that's (one of the) reason Martin had enough by the end probably and they just did the job they had to do. That's what I felt. Like they were acting but it didn't really have the....spice if you know what I mean. What do you think? I have always had this theory but since studying film and how film production work and the writing progress I am convinced that they thought it through and they had a clear intension, a long game but they need to stop. 2. This second one is not a theory but it always really bugged me. In the last episode, the Final problem when Sherlock had to call Molly to make her say I love you (let's not talk about the part how rubbish it was), why Molly looked so...pardon my language...shit? She looked so done, like she was crying for hours before and it was just super weird. What was the intention behind it? It was never really explained. Or did they want to suggest that she had a shitty day and she has no patience today for Sherlock or what? She was so completely different than normally. (And I try not to rage about the fact how they underminded her character but that's another story). What do you think about that one? Honestly it really bothered me when I saw that.

Sorry for the long post. This is something I have in me for years and I didn't really have anyone to share with. If anyone else wants to comment on it, go ahead. (And english is not my first language so sorry if there are grammar issues)

Hey Lovely!

Sorry for the delay in a reply, I always need to switch my brain into Meta Mode™ to answer these types of questions, and since I don't do that much anymore, I have to go back and see what I used to theorize, LOL. So, let's go:

ONE:

Your theory aligns mostly with my own: either the (at the time) Doyle estate got involved since they saw where the plot lines were leading to post-S3, OR – and this is the one I lean more heavier towards – BBC interference. I believe there was a turnover of higher-ups at BBC at the time, if I recall correctly, and perhaps their vision for the show differed from what the story was being told. I agree with you – there is NO WAY that they DIDN'T see what they were doing...

Which then leads me to the third (and, I fear, the actual answer) option – queerbaiting to bring in the numbers. Moffat has done projects in the past where he never follows through with the queer romance or they die / happens offscreen, and Gatiss has openly admitted to using homoeroticism to bring in an audience after the downfall of S4. So It's also likely that they got too full of themselves, and without a third writer to reign them in and make a cohesive narrative (at the VERY least make S4 make sense to the other previous episodes with or without Johnlock endgame), they wrote something no one liked at ALL (even though they LEGIT thought TFP was great enough to nominate for an Emmy, if I recall correctly, and backed down on that claim after it was critically panned), including the critics AND general audience, basically told everyone they were stupid, and picked up their ball and went home. And they refuse to say if Sherlock is done at this point because the Brand™ gets them money still.

None of the actors seemed very happy after S4, even though they worked SO hard to make the best with what they had been given. Martin was DONE in interviews, Ben is SO bad at faking it, but he tried, bless his heart, and I think at this point, with both Martin and Ben busy with their own careers and side projects, I don't think we're getting anything within the next 5 years. But I've been surprised before.

TWO:

Ah, yes, the Molly Thing in TFP™, one of the things that just... ruined her entire character, devolving her back to ASiP Molly. The running theory – or at least my theory – is that she is a placeholder character for John in John's coma nightmare. She is John's inner feelings, the ones John himself feels like he can't express to Sherlock because he fears the rejection from Sherlock. I PERSONALLY think that's how we're supposed to read that scene, because otherwise any other context is weird and demeaning to her character arc.

But then again, the entirety of S4 is one big FU the series without an S5 to clean it up.

-------

I hope I helped a bit with this response! Sorry if I missed anything, I'm exhausted and need some sleep LOL.

Feel free, friends, to add your own thoughts.

#steph replies #sherlock meta #s4 meta #sherlock s4 #my meta #my theories #s4 shitposting #queerbaiting #tfp i love you #tfp meta #my thoughts