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whitetrashjj · 3 years

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crying my eyes out at your MLA format essays cuz not every queer storyline in media has to be rooted in angst of coming out. i get some of the points you’re trying to make. i also don’t think the show is queerbaiting but jjpope had just as much “evidence” as jiara had. like please explain why jj was so keen on kiara liking john b just cuz she kissed him on the cheek and then went and kissed pope’s cheek?…. like in jj’s mind a cheek kiss means liking someone and he did that to pope. also there ARE shots of jj’s lingering gaze towards pope lets us not lie here lmao. i get that you’re sick of people calling u homophobic i dont think u are for not shipping jjpope i also dont think the show is queerbaiting at all but you go on about “storytelling povs” and “lack of critical thinking” when YOUR critical thinking is literally biased as hell 😭 u can ship jiara all u want but jj and kiara, ESPECIALLY KIARA, are both very much queer coded and if u gonna say they’re not bc of some cheesy sTorYtELLiNg bullshit that u probably learned from a youtube video then you’re just biased to your ship.

You know why I have to write those 'essays'? Cause I get asks like this that brush over a bunch of different topics and I want to make sure I not only address every part of it but also make sure I'm making my pov very clear so I don't have people misinterpreting what I say - even though they still do - or accuse me about random bitching without and reasons or justification. Anyway get ready to do some crying cause you are getting another essay.

I know not every queer storyline has to be rooted in the angst of coming out. I wish there were more that weren't. It's the reason I loved booksmart so much. It's one of the reasons I love Dare Me, because that show had sapphic leads and while their relationship was at the core of the show. It wasn't the fact that they were queer that was focused on. Oh god I could rant about Dare Me forever.

Now my point with JJ and Pope is that we don't get the impression that the boys are currently out as queer. JJ from the start was set up as a bit of a womaniser, a bit girl mad - it would have been very easy to make that gender neutral if he was bi, as I headcanon. With Pope it's the same, I personally view him as gay, but if he was bi/pan it would have been easy to show him like that as we see him attempting to flirt on two occasions. Now this isn't to say that in future seasons they can switch it up as if it was always canon, like they did with Clarke in the 100. My point however, isn't to say that JJ and Pope releasing their sexualities and feelings has to be filled with angst, the example I gave can very easily be played a bit cutely - even if they do address the internalised homophobia that I'm just sure would effect a character like JJ - but just that based on my experiences as a queer person and what I know to be experiences of others that it would realistically play out differently to how it would with a m/f couple. Even then when to comes to friends to lovers in general the removal of physical intimacy when that tension starts to build out of awkwardness is common, it doesn’t play out the same way that ships like JB and Sarah do in which they increase in physical intimacy.

I didn't bring jiara into this. I didn't go out comparing jjpope and their interactions to jiara, I was simply speaking to how jjpope's relationship was portrayed. In terms of 'evidence' I am more than aware the jiara wasn't written to be a developing romance, anything there was created by what the fans saw and choices made by the editors. But it is also a canon fact that at the very least JJ is attracted to Kie, that all the pogues 'kinda have a thing for her' and that he has 'tried' something with her. Even if the intention of those things wasn't to build to a relationship - they did happen and that's not up for interpretation. I'm not gonna bring up the 'did you tell JJ?' thing cause it still confuses the hell out of me.

The thing with the cheek kisses is that it's not the action in itself that made it a romantic thing. A handshake can build romantic tension when framed that way but that doesn't make every hand shake in that piece of media suddenly romantic, make sense? If you compare the two scenes we have the build up of Kie walking up to John B, a close up of a lingering cheek kiss, the pull back with lingering looks and then the reactions of others who have observed it and picked up on something. It frames it as a significant moment with slow beats. That's how you build romantic tension. With the JJPope one it just flows past it, JJ pulls back from the hug, a quick peck on the check and a 'love you too man' with a smirk and pat on the check. We don't even have a second of Pope's reaction to it. Do you see what I mean?

You can love that moment as a shipper. I mean it's a great moment that really highlights their dynamic. To you it's a dynamic that you see and think oh this would play out so well romanticly, it's a dynamic I see and think oh I love their friendship. Each of those are valid reactions. But it isn't a moment that has been intentionally framed to build romantic tension and suggest a budding relationship.

Darl, I swear to god if I was coming to you with my shipping bias' this would be a very different conversation. I know I will always have them and I will lean into them when I'm on vc with shes, theys and gays and we are getting lost in headcanons but I do my best take a step back when I talk about these things here because I've been in fandoms when you have two extremes and no one relents and it's awful, I don't want to create that space. And once again, I did not bring jiara into this. My original post was not a comparison to jiara.

I am very curious about your perspective on queer coding here. Because yes, JJ has chaotic bi energy and I will die on this hill. But I do not see how he has been queer coded. Other than people seeing a man being physically affectionate with another men and insist that can't be platonic. As with Kie I can see it more, not for a second do I believe that what went on with Kie and Sarah was straight. And I desperately want to see Maddie play Kie as pan to rep her own very underrepresented sexuality! And in terms of how she's written, stuff like being an astrology bitch and environmentalist scream queer to us, I do think it is important to note that the writers of the show being who they are would necessarily have the same impression of what a queer womans traits would be. In regards to that scene in ep 1 where they have the hot touron girl and then JJ, JB and Kie all perking up and doing the nod thing? I don't think anyone has a straight explanation for that.

The 'sTorYtELLiNg bullshit that u probably learned from a youtube video' comment made me laugh cause it reminds me of this guy I had a fight with on the weekend over Remus and Sirius being queer and he decided to undermine my argument by saying 'just because you read it on reddit doesn't make it true' which... yike. Any way, maybe you do but I don't have the tolerance to sit down and watch a youtube video on someone analysing a show. All my interpretations come from years of writing actual essays analysing elements and themes in media. As well as having a keen interest in direction and editing, so I pay a lot of attention to those things and you start to notice patterns. In terms of credentials I don't have any but I do think these 'essays' do an alright job of me not only explaining my interpretation but why. Because I'm not someone to just say things and expect that to just be accepted or think that is makes it true.

#obx #outer banks #JJ and pope #jiara #JJ maybank #kiara carrera #pope heyward #lara answers

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cto10121 · 3 years

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Why Does the Nurse Prefer Paris to Romeo?

After she returns from meeting Romeo, and Juliet desperately asks her what he said about their marriage, the Nurse goes into this humorous but very telling speech:

Nurse. Well, you have made a simple choice. You know not how to choose a man. Romeo? No, not he. Though his face be better than any man’s, yet his leg excels all men’s, and for a hand and a foot, and a body, though they be not to be talked on, yet they are past compare. He is not the flower of courtesy, but I’ll warrant him as gentle as a lamb. Go thy ways, wench. Serve God.

I find this fascinating.

Notice how the Nurse doesn’t really say why Romeo is the dumb choice, or what her problem with him is, but goes into another one of her comic desultory ramblings, this time on Romeo’s hotness that seems to undermine her assertion. The only true criticism or justification she offers is merely that “He is not the flower of courtesy,” and even that is mitigated by a compliment to Romeo’s character (“as gentle as a lamb”). While this is obvious foreshadowing for the Nurse’s betrayal of Juliet and her “Romeo is a dishclout to [Paris]” line, she never offers a good explanation as to why she thinks Romeo isn’t good enough for Juliet, and that she could do better. By contrast, she praises Paris and tells Juliet no less than three times in that same speech that he is better than Romeo.

It’s particularly noteworthy since in the Act 2, Scene 4 scene when they meet, it’s clear that the Nurse likes Romeo. She laughs at and appreciates his roasting Mercutio (“Marry, well said!”). Despite the fact that he is clearly friends with Mercutio et al. who mock her shamelessly, she is unfailingly polite (“Pray you, sir, a word”) and nice, as if she considers him different from the rest. Her warning to him not to toy with Juliet’s feelings is clearly a pre-made speech she would have given anyway. She feels comfortable enough to go on her ramblings—even telling him about Paris and how Juliet hates him and how she ~mysteriously blanches when she tells her Paris is better! So what’s with the sudden Team Paris stuff?

Well, I have my theories, and they may even shed some light not only as to the purpose of this little speech, but what it reveals about the Nurse’s character and her role, ultimately, as Juliet’s foil, in similar ways Mercutio acts as Romeo’s. So let’s speculate.

Theory 1: The Nurse Thinks Romeo Is Too Callow/Immature

While the Nurse clearly doesn’t hold the mockery of hi Romeo’s wily friends against him, she still caught Romeo in his male camaraderie and may have concluded that Romeo, while better than those “scurvy knaves,” is still a callow youth, wet behind the ears. That would explain the use of “simple” (meaning dumb) instead of just “wrong.” She is shocked that he was capable of killing Tybalt (although to her view she would have assumed it had been in cold blood). She isn’t all surprised to see him weeping disconsolately on the floor of the Friar’s cell (although that is because Juliet is doing the exact same thing, and she says so). She also—tellingly—tells him to stand up and “be a man,” so she obviously has bought into the cultural notion of masculinity that does not allow the free expression of excessive emotion from men. Paris is much more self-possessed and composed, even while he’s mourning Juliet, and older besides; that may be enough to prefer him for Juliet, especially if the Nurse thinks a mature man can help Juliet adjust through the trials of marriage and motherhood better.

Against this, however, is the Nurse’s description of Romeo as a dishclout (dishrag) to Paris’ “eagle.” If Romeo’s supposed immaturity was her main objection to him, then she would have said a baby eagle or some equivalent animal or object associated with youth—small, weak, and mewling. Also, Juliet may be smart, but she is still 13. The Nurse no doubt lowkey sees her as still a little girl herself, one she personally raised, so thinking Romeo is too immature for her makes little sense. They both behave in similar ways. Romeo also consistently reads older by at least 3-4 years and his behavior in his play does not mark him as any less mature than his friends or Tybalt—or, frankly, most of the adults in this play.

Theory 2: The Nurse Prefers Paris Because He Is of a Higher Social Rank/Wealthier Than Romeo

Paris is kinsman to the Prince, and Romeo is the heir of Montague; it’s a no-brainer which one has the higher rank. Paris also reads as an older man, though he too dies with the rest of the youths of the play (there is some ambiguity definitely re: his age). The Nurse seems to have some materialistic leanings, as when she rather gleefully tells Romeo at the Capulet ball: “I tell you, he that can lay a hold of her / Shall have the chinks” and social climbing tendencies as when she gives herself airs in front of Mercutio et al. and tells Peter to hand over her fan. She makes only a token resistance to Romeo’s coin offer and accepts it immediately at his mild insistence. There are definite classist vibes in her “Romeo’s a dishclout compared to [Paris]” line. A rag is a low, plain/ugly, used, faded, common item; an eagle is a noble animal that soars the skies. It may emphasize the Nurse’s belief that Romeo is dime-a-dozen in terms of youths go, and that Paris is “rare.”

Against this, however, is the fact that the Nurse doesn’t bring up materialistic or mercenary considerations in her marry-Paris speech even though it would have been apropos. Also, the social difference between Romeo and Paris is probably not even significant; Romeo was able to be friends with Mercutio, also PE’s kinsman, with no trouble, after all. Romeo is the heir of Montague, a family of the same social class with Juliet’s; while the family’s fortunes would not drastically improve, there would be no social shame in a match, and in fact the Friar counts on it in his plans. Paris would be a much nicer match, of course, but not one to overthrow all consideration of Juliet’s feelings. If the Nurse did have class considerations, they must have been unconscious ones. This is an English play, after all, by an English writer writing a lower class character; class is never far behind.

Theory 3: The Nurse Thinks Paris Is Hotter Than Romeo (and Hotter=Better)

The first half at least is definitely canon. The Nurse consistently raises up the question of Romeo’s hotness vis-à-vis Paris. On one side, Paris is consistently her favorite, the one that “excels” Romeo, the one she has stated more than once that she prefers. “An eagle” doesn’t have “so fair an eye” as Paris, and Romeo’s the “dishclout.” Paris is the flower of Verona, Paris is a man of wax, etc. The very first thing she says after telling Juliet that she thinks it’s best to marry Paris is that he is a “lovely gentleman” (although that could also easily refer to his personality).

On the other hand, the Nurse explicitly says that Romeo’s face “be better than any man’s.” (Even better than Paris’? ~Surely not). It is the Nurse, not Juliet, who lewdly blazons Romeo’s body parts; Juliet, even at her most horny in “Gallop apace,” never talks about Romeo in this way. It’s as if the Nurse views the Romeo-Juliet-Paris drama as a YA novel and she is the fangirl resolutely on #TeamParis, writing steadily long meta rants on Tumblr about how Paris is the sophisticated/more mature/nicer option and Romeo is the mediocre/basic/nice guy—all the while writing R/J fanfic because hey, Romeo is super hot too.

Considering the Nurse’s obsession with these men’s looks and physical beauty, she would prefer the one who is most handsome for Juliet or who she thinks is the most handsome. How she eventually did settle firmly on the Team Paris camp is uncertain, since a furious Juliet rages on how she hypocritically trashed Romeo even when she had “praised him with above compare / So many thousand times?” Juliet may have been exaggerating the number in her hurt and betrayal, but we literally do see the Nurse liking Romeo physically—explicitly so in ways she doesn’t do with Paris—and personally. Perhaps her likening Romeo to a dishclout compared to Paris was an exaggerated, blunt way to persuade Juliet to drop him. Conversely, she could have just been humoring Juliet when she praised Romeo “with above compare,” just as she might have been hastily placating Juliet when, in her marry-Paris speech, she says, “O he [Paris] is a lovely gentleman!”

In any case, the Nurse’s valuing physical beauty shows her shallowness, which is part-and-parcel to her role as Juliet’s foil. Notice how Juliet doesn’t go into detail as to Romeo’s appearance and neither does Romeo for Juliet. This is partially logistical, as Shakespeare, being trained for the theater, learned to avoid specifying character appearance. But the absence also indicates that R&J’s love are not based on trivial details such as hair or eye color, much less body type. They obviously find each other physically attractive, but it’s more what they mean to each other. The Nurse doesn’t understand that, and Juliet’s irritation and impatience when she goes on a tangent on Romeo’s excelling leg: “But all of this I have known before.” Yes, my Romeo is hot and the sky is blue, can we move on?

Which Theory?

Barring more information from the text, I feel Theory 3 is the most supported and the most likely, although 1 and 2 have their strong points. A little bit of all three wouldn’t be out of the question. The main problem is that the Nurse doesn’t bring up potential valid objections, like Romeo’s killing Tybalt (!!), which Presgurvic’s RetJ did, only the logistical difficulty of Romeo being in Mantua and Juliet in Verona “and [her] no use of him” in the sense that Juliet can’t enjoy Romeo sexually. The emotional callousness the Nurse displays here is part-and-parcel with the Capulets’ overall emotional callousness and shallowness, especially towards Tybalt’s death (see Capulet’s “Well, we are all born to die”—compare that to Romeo’s genuinely regretful, “Forgive me, cousin” speech to Tybalt’s tomb).

In that sense the Nurse’s emotional shallowness is obviously meant to contrast with Juliet’s love and commitment to Romeo and even her lewd praise of him contrast with Juliet’s rapturous praise.

In sum: While the Nurse is much more supportive of R&J than the Friar, she prefers Paris and not only doesn’t hesitate to tell Juliet of it, it also informs her advising Juliet to marry Paris. This creates a bit of a mystery since she never goes into any explanation as to why she prefers Paris or even why Romeo would make a poor choice. Most likely she is just playing YA love triangle games and going back and forth as to which one is hotter/which one Juliet should date (the verdict? Team Paris).

(P.S. Another, slightly nerdy addition—on the Nurse’s “He is not the flower of courtesy, but I’ll warrant him as a gentle as a lamb.” Gentle in Shakespeare is almost always used in the sense of being well-regarded, honorable, virtuous, or simply having the qualities of a gentleman. The Nurse’s use of it to mean “soft or sweet” is the first time I’ve seen Shakespeare employ the word in the modern sense. To make absolutely sure, I checked David and Ben Crystal’s Shakespeare’s Words: A Glossary and Language Companion, and sure enough there was no definition close to “soft/kind/sweet” under the gentle entries (noun, verb, adjective). It could be that this was a small oversight and the dictionary has been updated since then, but the entries looked comprehensive enough. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time Shakespeare employed a word in what we would recognize as its modern sense. (Any Shakespearean nut remembers any other time Shakespeare uses gentle in the modern sense? Hit me up if you find anything.)

Anyway, my personal headcanon is that the modern sense of the word could have been extant, if not widely used, a sort of slang that a lower-class character like the Nurse, when she is not putting on airs, would employ. If so, perhaps Shakespeare could have intended a small malapropism (the Nurse commits many of them) his mainstream audience would find amusing. Because of course, if Romeo were gentle, lamblike or not, then he would de facto be courteous—a key part of gentility is courtesy! So it would seem, to Elizabethan audiences, that the Nurse, in employing some peasant slang, accidentally employs a ridiculous contradiction. Cue laughter—oh that Nurse!

As for “gentle as a lamb”…Romeo is indeed lovely and sweet to Juliet and even his Mercutio roasts are more fond than cutting, but while he is patient and considerate with the Nurse—he insists on giving her some coin for her trouble—he reads mostly bemused by her. Not so much “gentle” in the modern sense of the word. But the Nurse herself is not very observant nor very emotionally perceptive, so it lends a little more credence to Theory 1 in that she thinks of Romeo as just a kid, nothing more.)

#romeo and juliet #rj meta #r&j meta #cristina metas #i just can’t help thinking about juliet listening to her nurse thirsting after romeo #only for the nurse to say she should marry paris and that paris is better #the top ten anime betrayals for sure

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bthump · 5 years

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Thx 4 your compelling answer! You made me curious about what do you think Guts and Griffith would be like as a couple, how do you imagine their dynamic would develop and grow. Not super chill I agree lmao but it's very interesting given their respective baggages. And kind of unrelated but I was soo mad that Casca insisted Guts to leave the 2nd time even when Guts was like: HEY I WANNA STAY FOR REAL. But Griffith never knew that. Hurts but that's the kind of element that makes for a great tragedy

ikr! Man that scene where Griffith overhears them is so painful. Like it makes sense that Casca would tell Guts to leave imo for a few reasons (mainly because Guts successfully convinced her after they had sex that it was what he ~really truly wanted~ lol, and also I think there’s some interesting selfishness on her part there too) but man, it’s tragic.

Anyway back at you, thanks for the interesting questions. lol idk where to start with this one really because like, there’s so much to potentially say, and so many potential ways for their relationship to go, like I don’t really have One True Concept of their relationship, there are so many possibilities and options.

Holy shit this got ridiculously long lol, sorry. I just used the opportunity to throw out like as many of my griffguts opinions as I could reasonably fit lmao.

I guess there are a few things that I tend to stick to when I’m imagining them together in like a Golden Age AU where everything worked out, tho ofc none of this is set in stone.

Like, if this is an AU without the whole overheard Promrose Hall speech that changes everything, I tend to think Guts is more likely to make the first move. Like say Guts didn’t hear the speech but still fell off the cliff with Casca and got her monologue, and without his feelings of inadequacy clouding his understanding he actually starts to get it, like, I pretty much think Guts would’ve kissed him during Tombstone of Flame 2. Griffith being openly afraid of Guts’ judgement -> Guts impulsively demonstrating exactly how he really feels about him.

But also just in general I think Guts is more likely to act on his feelings without thinking about potential consequences or how it could’ve gone wrong until afterwards, so I can imagine a lot of scenarios where he’d make the first move. Whereas even if Griffith did figure out how he feels and what he wants, it’s harder for me to see him going for it. On the one hand yeah he does have that “I must obtain what I desire” attitude, on the other hand what he wants is for Guts to love and want him, and he’d know that, and he’d know that kissing Guts is not necessarily going to get him that, and might end up ruining everything he does have.

Like, dude has a major fear of rejection.

But I guess I could see him also impulsively going for it in a more extreme moment - like the way his mind shuts off and he runs to save Guts from Zodd, I could imagine a thank god you’re alive type kiss, eg. But imo he’d need more of a push than Guts would.

And yeah I think both of their respective traumas would affect things, but I’d prefer to delay that a bit? I want them to have a good positive sexual encounter before they start sorting through all their issues together, basically so they have proof that it’s worth persisting lol, and I think that’s pretty easy to manage. Like, they start making out and end up jerking each other off and no one has any flashbacks, easy peasy.

I could see them getting past a bad first time, but it wouldn’t be easy lol. Like first off they’re both overly likely to take it as a personal condemnation, even if logically that’s not how trauma works, because they both hate themselves, and they both canonically have a fear of being monstrous/predatory. Griffith asking if Guts thinks he’s cruel and tbqh most of his speech to the King in the dungeon is indicative of this imo, and Guts seeing himself as a monster after killing Adonis and also in canon flashbacking from his rapist’s perspective.

And yk, if they do start having sex without immediate issues, I imagine the first problem that would come up sooner rather than later would be Guts flashbacking. I tend to assume he would be upfront about not wanting to get fucked without saying why, and Griffith would be fine with that, and then Guts would still eventually have a flashback while topping and it would take him by surprise like in canon. I could see Guts reacting basically the exact same way he did with Casca, rambly confessional and all, and I think Griffith would be supportive and comforting and understanding in the immediate aftermath. Hopefully Guts would make it very clear that it had nothing to do with anything Griffith did or anything about him and he still wants to get laid on the regular, because otherwise I could see something stupid happening afterwards like Griffith withdrawing out of fear of his potential to Guts and Guts blaming himself for making things weird and neither of them talking about it until something gives.

Anyway if they do successfully navigate that, the next problem would be more insidious, and it would be Griffith, and the way he views sex as transactional. Like when I say Griffith would be fine with never topping, I think that holds true entirely regardless of what Griffith might actually want personally from a sexual encounter. He’d let Guts fuck him even if he hated it, because what he wants is the emotional closeness and Guts needing him and wanting him. I think he actually would want sex with Guts for its own sake and enjoy it, like he’s attracted to Guts and he wants him and I def don’t think he would hate it in any way. Buuut I see him as very detached from his own physical desires, yk? Dude has never had sex because he wanted to have sex, even the evil personification of his inner darkness didn’t lol.

And along with that you could have the additional problem of enjoying sex with a man being another potential source of self-loathing for him. I’m thinking because of ‘am I dirty?” in the river, and again the scene in the dungeon w/ the King lends itself to this really well too. Like it’s so easy to read internalized homophobia into his narrative imo, even the entire structure of it, with Charlotte and the dream on one side and Guts on the other.

And basically I think those issues would combine to make him see sex as something he gives in return for Guts’ love/loyalty/presence, and avoid seeing it as something he personally wants. So like basically I think in a way he’d use that transactional framework as a justification for doing something he really really wants to do (sex with Guts) but that he doesn’t want to acknowledge he wants because it makes him hate himself because a) internalized homophobia and also b) deep down he knows he wants Guts more than the dream which also makes him feel guilty.

Also like, when it comes to Griffith and his issues I don’t think any of this is required, like canonically we know Guts’ csa trauma affects him but we don’t really know how Griffith’s csa trauma affects him. I wouldn’t see it as out of character if he was ultimately fine with his desire for Guts and doesn’t contribute any issues to the griffguts sex life. But it’s really really easy to see how he could have a metric ton of issues with sex to work through, and I think those would be really interesting to explore, basically.

Plus I don’t necessarily think this would actually… matter? Like I could easily see Griffith never giving Guts any cause for concern, they never talk about this, Griffith himself barely notices that he’s got a messed up attitude towards sex, and eventually he just internally works through it himself as his relationship with Guts progresses and he gets more comfortable with wanting Guts and wanting sex for its own sake and he achieves his dream regardless of his emotional priorities, etc. Like this could all easily work itself out in Griffith’s subconscious without any external drama lol. (Tho if Guts ever picked up on this it would def fuck him up and the fallout would be big.)

ANYWAY so that’s all the trauma stuff I could see influencing their relationship.

Overall I think there’d be way more good than bad. They’re perfect for each other. Griffith wants Guts to know him and see all the stuff he hates about himself and want him anyway, and Guts would absolutely do that, and demonstrate it thoroughly, and it would do wonders for Griffith’s self-acceptance. Guts wants Griffith to pay attention to him, to love him and respect him and look at him, and being in a relationship with him would give him everything he wants. The way Griffith looks at him after they kiss or while they’re fucking or whatever, like he’s the only thing in the world, would be the highlight of Guts’ life. Guts fucking Griffith like he needs him, or making love to him with reverence, or demonstrating casual closeness and affection, would be the highlight of Griffith’s.

I think Charlotte and the dream would be a bit of an issue for Guts, like I could see him being jealous, but I could also see him being totally able to see Charlotte as business and himself as the person Griffith wants. The fact that they’re fucking behind Charlotte’s back would itself be probably enough proof of how much Griffith wants him and is willing to risk for him to make Guts feel secure. Like basically I could see jealous insecure Guts telling Griffith they should break it off because the risk to his dream is too much and Griffith refusing out of hand, and that being a big moment for Guts and his feelings of security in their relationship.

Eventually I think the most satisfying direction their relationship could go would be Griffith decisively choosing Guts over the dream and having grown enough in their years together that he’s able to live with that choice and be happy with Guts instead of a big exaggerated dream lol. As far as I’m concerned that’s the secret Berserk happy ending that they never got a chance to get to, but is wholly telegraphed by the story as something that could’ve happened if everything hadn’t gone wrong.

Hmm what else. Random details I guess: I think they’d start out with Guts exclusively topping when they have penetrative sex but Guts would absolutely eventually want Griffith to fuck him imo, and their first time switching it up would be pretty emotionally intense but extremely good and positive. They’d be really close and trusting and more effectively communicative by then, and it would work great and Guts would bask in the attention as Griffith v thoroughly makes love to him.

Also when Griffith achieves his dream and runs Midland they would both be extremely into Guts getting a little possessive and staking his claim on him, like by fucking him hard enough that he can feel it throughout the next day, or scratches/bruises under clothes, etc. Nothing super kinky, I think they’re both pretty vanilla lol, but Guts would love knowing Griffith is being constantly reminded of him while he’s at meetings with nobles or w/e and Griffith would love that lingering reminder.

I think at some point early on they’d have to have a talk in which Guts asserts that he wants to stay with Griffith and the Hawks and doesn’t feel obligated because he lost a fight when they were 15. I could see that thought eating away at Griffith for a while if they don’t. Also because the question of whether they’re equals or not is kind of hammered in in canon I think they’d have to navigate around Griffith technically being Guts’ commander. I don’t think Guts would think twice about it (again assuming he hasn’t heard the Promrose Hall speech) but Griffith would worry, especially given exchanges like “that’s why I’m asking you to do this” “just order me to do it” lol. So they’d have to at least talk about that.

Or conversely they could not talk about Guts potentially feeling obligated and it could blow up in their faces and lead to miscommunication drama. I mean there are so many potential ways they could fuck things up by not talking and assuming the worst at the first sign of an issue lmao, it’s like, you want relationship drama just take your pick.

Also relatedly, I think this is a little bit of an unpopular opinion, at least judging by most of the griffguts fic I’ve read lol, but I really don’t see Griffith as likely to behave possessively at all, unless he thinks Guts is about to leave him and is like next to having a breakdown about it, and even then… idk. I think the second duel was extremely atypical - Griffith defaulted to trying to fight Guts for his loyalty because that’s how he won his loyalty the first time and it was the only way Griffith saw to keep his loyalty, he was extremely out of his depth emotionally lol, and I think there’s some big indications that he hated himself for it afterwards.

He wants Guts to want him, to choose to be with him of his own desire, he wants Guts to love him. I think he would abhor the thought that Guts was obligated to stay with him in any way, and any indications of that would freak him out and add to his self loathing. So he wouldn’t tell Guts “you’re mine” as part of sexy foreplay or whatever, and he wouldn’t order him to do shit lol (along with this like I don’t think Griff is dominant at all, and trying to be with someone he loves would fuck him up).

I think the biggest problem for both of them would be a tendency to assume the worst and just blame themselves for whatever instead of talking. But I also think the longer they’re in a relationship the better they’ll get at not doing that and at constructive positive communication lol.

Like at the end of the day again I think there’d be way more positives than negatives. We’re shown how perfectly they fulfill each others’ needs. Guts wants attention, Griffith wants acceptance, they both want to be loved, and before the misunderstandings get in the way and fuck it all up their relationship benefits both and starts helping both heal emotionally. If they stayed together and added romance and sex to the mix I think overall they’d be pretty ideal partners.

Ooookay I think I’ve talked more than enough about this lmao. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to just ramble for ages about a bunch of griffguts stuff. Honestly if anyone reads through this to the end I’ll be slightly surprised lol.

#Anonymous #griffguts #berserk #a #b #headcanons #character thoughts #canon divergence #ship: griffguts

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ketzwrites · 5 years

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Rewatch 103: Dead Man’s Party

First things first, I’m changing the format of these re-watch commentaries. I’ll be doing them act by act, scene by scene. It’s easier for me and I don’t have to do any editing afterward.

Anyway, this episode is incredibly uncomfortable to watch. Not only are the Shadowhunters’ racism framed as fun quips and badass action scenes, but there is also a lot of sexual assault. Really, a lot. And one of them was enabled by one of the “heroes”. Not great.

Also, Clary goes up and down in the “likeability” scale. I left the episode not knowing how I feel about her.

TEASER

These opening lines are so obviously written to glorify Clary’s point. If they were portrayed as Clary conducting the conversation to convince the Lightwood Trio to save Simon it would be one thing, but they are played straight because it’s not like Clary is working an angle, she is simply right because she’s the protagonist, full stop.

In fact, this whole teaser forces the idea that Clary is the beam of truth and reason. However, her arguments are: 1. do not report our findings to your boss because two people I love are in danger and doing so doesn’t specifically help them, and 2. I trusted you, Jace, now you all should trust me.

Clary ignores that Jace has the means and knowledge to act in the Shadow World, she does not. Jace (and his siblings) respond to the Clave, and she does not. Clary isn’t just ignoring rules she doesn’t know about; she’s guilt-tripping the Lightwoods into doing the same.

And it works. After displaying how racist they are against Downworlders (“Downworlders are slaves to their emotions, we’re not.”/“We all got our things.”/“Seelies have their charm.” “Right?”), Jace and Izzy decide to go along Clary’s “attack first, ask questions later” plan and Alec offers some light protesting before agreeing to it too. Maybe even worse, Jace makes blatant use of his favoritism and the Clave’s hatred against Downworlders: “the Clave will give us a lecture and then be glad we did it.” Translation: it’s okay if we break the Accords and attack an entire vampire lair because two vampires broke the Accords first.

Are we supposed to be rooting for these guys?

I like that, despite his fear of Raphael, Simon does not accept his position as a hostage meekly. He also has a mean throw. Too bad a mundane has little to no chances against a vampire.

Camille’s entrance is everything. She’s calm, collected, and menacing. A totally different level than Raphael: her mere presence shuts up Simon. This is a true villain.

ACT ONE

A little Shadowhunter History is always nice. Building up the mythology. We also get to see the Lightwood Trio working their plan of attack: the boys gather the weapons while Izzy finds a way into their target. They strike at sunrise.

Clary is finally digesting the fact that Valentine is her father: not something easy to accept. Jace is there for her, which is cute. Alec, on the other hand, isn’t. He reads Jace’s insistence in helping Clary as another one of Jace’s female-related conquests and Jace is not having it. Only, he doesn’t explain to Alec why he trusts Clary. Maybe he himself doesn’t even know. Instead of saying so, though, Jace asks Alec to blindly trust him. They are both wrong and bad at communication.

But they do make up. Alec trusts Jace and he asks Jace never to doubt his loyalty again. Which Jace says he will do. It’s a nice moment but it doesn’t address their increasing conflict.

“Like in Pandemonium when I killed that demon?” Clary didn’t kill any demons. Jace impaled the demon on the blade she was holding while in shock. This arrogance is hard to defend, Clary.

Jace and Clary flirt while he trains her. Clary learns a sword move while Jace falls for her, gets spooked, and runs away. That is literally what he does, no kidding.

Clary, on the other hand, has other worries. She doesn’t trust that either Izzy nor Alec will come back to help. Because, to her, one only helps those they like and Alec doesn’t like her. To that, Jace makes a rather dramatic speech about how he and Alec are Parabatai, and Parabatai are bonded, Parabatai are the best, Parabatai- Got it, you two are linked by your souls. Neat, I guess?

Simon desperately apologizes to Raphael about his ruined jacket and then Camille freezes him – using Encanto, I suppose. Anyway, Camille and Raphael have different philosophies. Raphael is against breaking the Accords (kidnapping Simon) because it means putting the clan at risk and antagonizing the Clave, their best chance against Valentine. Camille couldn’t care less about the safety of her clan or the power of the shadowhunters: the wants the Mortal Cup to become the most powerful creature in the Shadow World. Interestingly, Camille mentions the “heavenly” taste of Shadowhunter blood. Raphael has never had it: but he will in season 2. Foreshadowing?

Izzy meets with Meliorn – there’s lots of sexposition and information exchange. They are using each other and they know it. Funny how the only consensual relationship in the episode is also framed by manipulation.

Alec gets into the Institute and Jace takes Clary to a vamp bar, Hardtail. It’s full of images of Indians, for some reason. There, Jace teaches Clary how to look through the Veil that hides the Shadow World.

ACT TWO

This act is mostly sexposition: two non-consensual ones (Clary and Vamp/Simon and Camille) and one consensual (Izzy and Meliorn). That’s two yikes to one noice.

Jace keeps teaching Clary how to deal with the Shadow World, specifically with Encanto. It’s alarming that he pushes Clary into being hypnotized without her consent or explaining what is about to happen to her. Sure, Jace is there and keeping an eye on her but this scene is distressing to me. Is this some sort of punishment or test he’s doing after realizing he’s into her?

More rape-y scenes due to Encanto. Camille sexually assaults Simon to a sensual song. What the actual fuck, show? At least Camille is better at interrogations than the Shadowhunters. She gets to the info she wants: Magnus took away Clary’s memories.

Meliorn is one of the seelies scouts sent to spy on the Circle. Izzy keeps her benign casual racism (“Are you kidding? Some of us like a little spice.”) and uses the open status of her relationship with Meliorn to find a way into the DuMort.

And then there is Alec, being the opposite of discreet while he prepares arrows for battle in the middle of the Institute. Good thing Hodge plays favorites and Alec is his. Funny how last episode Hodge is all love for Jocelyn’s daughter but now that the audience knows who Clary’s father is, Hodge despises her for being Valentine’s daughter. Character consistency? I don’t know her.

ACT THREE

Back to Brad, the douche vamp, touching Clary without her consent. Jace gets tired of watching this sexual assault he created, so he punches the vamp and steals his bike. Clary is out of the Encanto’s influence but she doesn’t seem particularly bothered by Jace using her body to lure Brad into revealing his keys. It’s all good, they have a flying bike now. Fun times.

Camille continues to rape Simon with the escalation of making him drink her blood until she notices the shadowhunters getting close. More fun times.

Alec and Izzy’s sibling dynamic is honestly amazing. He doesn’t take her shit and she doesn’t take his. It’s too bad they have this conversation while trespassing vamp territory and planning to murder vamps as a distraction. It would be one thing if they knew for sure all vamps were involved in kidnapping Simon, but they don’t. All they know is that Raphael and another vamp did it and it never occurs to either Izzy or Alec that they might be working alone.

ACT FOUR

Camille sends her vamps to stop the shadowhunters and Jace prepares Clary for the fight. Now he explains about the Encanto and gives her the tools to fight it off. A little late for that, asshole. Jace continues to explain about vampires to Clary, which is a smart exposition tool. It makes sense that the writers left the vampire explanation to the episode where Clary is facing off vamps.

Also, Clary thinks that it is “awful” that a victim would have the hots for the vampire that bites them because it would make the victim feel attracted to the vampire. Which it is, but it is also exactly what happened to her with the Encanto, minus the bite. Jace seems puzzled as to why this lack of consent would be awful. Oh, no- Sorry, he thinks Clary means being in love must be awful which he wouldn’t know because love is a weakness to him.

I’m sorry. Am I supposed to feel sympathy for Jace in this episode? He pushes Clary into a situation of sexual assault for his own gain and then he doesn’t understand that she thinks lack of consent is awful. Part of his dismissal of love is due to his traumatic upbringing, but that doesn’t justify the danger he deliberately puts Clary in.

Interesting that Jace says “Alec would die for me” and not “I would die for Alec”.

The attack on the vamps starts. Alec and Izzy form the front line, coming from the basement, while Jace and Clary infiltrate from the top. It’s well-organized and the Lightwoods are clearly competent in fighting. But they still have no way of knowing that the vamps aren’t just defending their territory, so it’s still murder.

ACT FIVE

The attack continues. Even with Alec and Izzy taking most of the vampires, Jace and Clary are attacked. With the aid of her new rune, Clary is able to avoid Brad’s Encanto. The shadowhunters regroup: Alec uses the sunlight to kill Brad, Clary uses the move Jace taught her in Act Two, and Jace kills two other vamps. All justified because “they wanted to kill you.” In reality, Brad is the one acting in self-defense and Clary is the one going after him for the kill. He’s a rapist asshole and the Shadow World is better without him, but he had nothing to do with Simon’s kidnapping and thus, the shadowhunters’ flimsy justification for being at Hotel DuMort killing everything that moves doesn’t serve here.

“Thanks, but it’s not about me.” Clary shows some modicum of humbleness. That’s good: her priority is saving Simon, not getting praise.

Simon pretends to still be under the Encanto’s influence and tries to run again but Raphael stops him. How exactly did he get out of Camille’s influence? Anyway, Raphael then pretends to look after Camille: he convinces her to flee by promising to kill Simon and deal with the shadowhunters himself. Not that Simon knows he’s pretending, that is.

“We wanted you.” “Well, here I am.” Kat plays a great badass and I’m happy to see how brave Clary is.

Raphael gives Simon back once the shadowhunters go away. By doing so, he makes sure the shadowhunters know not all vampires were complicit to the kidnapping. Do we see any regret for attacking the whole clan? Nope.

ACT SIX

Simon and Jace’s little exchange about the daylight and the vampires is fun and fits the characters. Jace is used to vampires, Simon is scared and confused.

Clary has a meltdown now that Simon is safe. It’s heartfelt and fits all the craziness they have been enduring for days. Too bad it is used to show Simon’s feelings instead of further humanizing Clary: the audience is meant to feel sympathetic to Simon’s disappointment, the camera checks with him every two seconds. We’re meant to feel hopeful Clary will declare her love and then disappointed when she says Simon is her best friend. This is not a scene in which a young woman vents her frustration, it’s a scene where a young man has his heart broken.

Alec and Jace have a fallen down. Their unresolved issues from Act Two come back and – once again – they are unable to communicate. Jace questions Alec’s loyalty – which he promised he wouldn’t do anymore – and Alec is bitter that Clary’s presence keeps changing their dynamic. No making up this time.

The tag for the next episode? While Jace and Clary have a silent stare contest, Simon sees something else: Clary’s pulsing vein. All that talk in Act Four about how one transforms into a vampire after drinking vamp blood might come in handy now.

#ketz rewatches shadowhunters #sh 103 #sh meta #if you guys think the show's issues with depiction of sex and consent started in s2A #you'd be wrong

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thatdiabolicalfeminist · 7 years

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just a few things straight* people need to never do again

since i’m feeling extra bitter tonight!

don’t call ppl gay as a joke/insult, this is 101 level shit friends!

DEFINITELY don’t call homophobes gay as a joke/insult. this goes TRIPLE for homophobic politicians etc who deliberately torture, or endanger/end the lives of, LGBT+ people. fuck your putin memes!!!

don’t suggest that violent homophobes are just closeted self-hating gay ppl or that “the worst ones are always secretly gay”. that places the blame on us for our own oppression which is a cruel move

don’t bring up the fact that “LGBT+ people aren’t all perfect, they can be abusers too!!” because we know, you paint us all that way in order to justify our oppression, and you literally cannot handle that conversation with nuance because of that history - so leave those discussions to us.

don’t say making a butch-coded character a lesbian would be “a stereotype” so it’s somehow more Progressive(tm) to have yet another straight character who just happens to take all her fashion cues from lesbian culture. we need rep more than you do, straight girls with short hair!

don’t insist that it’s somehow wrong to be LGBT+ and fulfil stereotypes, as though the negativity in those stereotypes doesn’t nearly always come directly from straight people being uncomfortable with people being visibly LGBT+ and having our own cultures and ways of identifying ourselves to each other, and/or straight people turning us into fucking jokes. the problem with stereotypes is you guys being weird, not LGBT+ individuals having things in common!!

don’t act all offended when someone mistakes you for one of us. take some time to think about why you think they should know or assume you’re straight, and why you think it’s so bad to be seen as one of us.

don’t make AIDS jokes. what the literal fuck. it was a fucking genocide you monster.

don’t defend the way we die on screen all the time. don’t write stories where we can’t be alive and happy and LGBT+ all at the same time without being punished for it by the narrative.

don’t go making or joining in on our jokes about how straight people are the worst. that’s you too, buddy, no matter how big your rainbow backpack is.

don’t talk about how there are straight people and Straight People(tm) and you’re better than those other Straight People(tm). that’s not your fucking call and if you think it is you’re definitely Straight People(tm)

don’t assume that everyone in your life is straight. odds are a lot of people just aren’t out to you. it’s your job to learn to be a person they can feel safe being honest with, and to act like that person even when you think you’re only interacting w straight ppl.

don’t assume that all LGBT+ people are adults who always knew. be aware that in most groups of children, some will be lgbt+, and be respectful of that possibility in how you talk to them

don’t out us. don’t speculate on whether someone you know is lgbt+. don’t mention us in conversation purely to get Cool Credit for knowing A Gay, that’s weird and uncomfortable even if it’s not to someone we know/will ever meet. other lgbt+ ppl see u doing that and we are creeped out.

don’t pretend you can be privately creeped out by/uncomfortable w/disapproving of our existence without being a homophobe. you’re a homophobe. you don’t have to stay that way.

don’t fetishize relationships between ppl of the gender you’re attracted to. our sexuality and our relationships are not for your consumption and us loving/fucking each other is explicitly not about you at all!

stop talking about same gender relationships like they’re dirtier or more sinful than yours. stop pretending gay fanfiction is dirtier than straight fanfiction.

shipping isn’t activism, porn isn’t activism, and it’s homophobic to pretend voyeuristic fetishization of our existence is remotely supportive. especially if you’re still uncomfortable w gay & bi people of your own gender.

like it’s 100% ok to ship gay relationships but it doesn’t make u an activist or exempt from homophobia, and u do need to examine how u interact w those stories to make sure you’re not objectifying oppressed ppl for ur own pleasure - we’re not fetish objects, we’re people

stop showing up to gay bars uninvited. stop having your bachelor/ette parties at gay bars. stop treating our only places to meet each other like your personal zoos.

don’t hit on gay men or lesbians, in earnest or as a joke. This includes hitting on gay ppl of your own gender bc you think it’s funny or bc you want to turn on your partner. don’t fucking ask us if you can watch us having sex. stop asking for sexual interaction altogether from people you know aren’t attracted to your gender. you will not be an exception.

don’t pressure ur bi partner to engage in a threesome they haven’t said they actually want. definitely do not hit on LGB+ ppl on behalf of your bi partner. wtf dude.

stop fucking assuming bpq people are “secretly straight/gay” or “doing it for attention” or “just slutty” or whatever fucking bullshit. Bi dudes aren’t just ‘too scared to come all the way out’ and bi women are capable of having serious, meaningful relationships with women that are just about them. Men are not the centre of everyone’s universe just bc the heteropatriarchy insists they should be the centre of yours.

straight women, please stop calling your platonic female friends “girlfriends” or people you admire “woman crushes”. Take some time to think about why you think just indicating she’s a girl is supposed to make it clear that your feelings toward someone are actually platonic, and how that makes lbpq women you know feel.

when someone comes out to you, don't act like they're suddenly a predatory pervert w no self control. don't stop inviting them to events or start acting differently around them. we interact w ppl of our own gender all the fucking time w/o making it sexual, stop interpreting every interaction w a gay person as sexual in our minds, it's almost certainly not. ur not that irresistible, stop making it weird.

don't pretend our existence is 100% about how we have sex. that means stop making excuses to not tell children about us! don't act like we shouldn't be gay in public! don't act like your weird kinks make your experience remotely equivalent to ours! (stop 'coming out' as kinky you creeps!)

don’t demand we present a desexualized and platonic image of our existence and relationships at all times. we have wildly varying sex lives and levels of complexity in our relationships to sex, just like you do.

don’t ever EVER use the word h*m*sexual, it’s considered a slur bc it was used for medicalized justifications for our torture. there’s a reason 99% of the usage of that word today is by anti-gay groups.

*tbh this is really just @ straight cis ppl even tho it’s abt gayness since honestly most of these do not apply to straight trans ppl, bc straight trans ppl are an integral part of the same communities/face many of the same issues - and almost always have better fucking manners.

#long post #no really it's a SUPER long post im sorry #cishet people read this #het people read this #thatdiabolicalfeminist #how to not be an asshole #homophobia #biphobia

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