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reactingtosomething · 7 years

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Reacting to X-Men: The Dark Phoenix Saga (1994)

The Living Embodiment of “Bitch, You Thought”

The Setup: Caroline Siede is a TV and film critic whose work has appeared in The AV Club, Quartz, The Mary Sue, and Vox, among others; an occasional theatre and film director, including of a web series Kris wrote; a superhero enthusiast in general and an X-Men superfan in particular; and to our great honor and everlasting vague surprise, a friend of Reacting to Something.

Kris remembered from this (excellent) X-Men: Apocalypse tweet storm that Caroline’s favorite fictional character ever is Jean Grey. Somewhere between then and the news that Jessica Chastain might join Sophie Turner, Jennifer Lawrence, et al. in X-Men: Dark Phoenix, he learned that Miri is also a big X-Men fan. And Miri is the only RtS regular who didn’t work on that web series, so this two-part Guest Reaction on X-Men cartoons basically had to happen.

Spoilers ahead, I guess?, for a decades-old story that practically redefined its medium and is on track for its third screen adaptation in our lifetimes. Post-chat notes and comics trivia from Kris in italics.

MIRI: Hi! This is Miri

CAROLINE: Hello!

MIRI: Ready?

CAROLINE: I am!

MIRI: Excellent!

My first instinct is to talk about [X-Men: The Animated Series], then [X-Men: Evolution], then some general yelling about how the two compare. What do you think?

CAROLINE: That sounds perfect to me!

MIRI: Awesome. Shall we be chronological about it?

(Secret motive: I have many feelings about the fashions in the Animated Series that I cannot contain for much longer)

CAROLINE: Ahaha. Well let's go for it then!

Had you seen any of the series before?

MIRI: None. At least not that I recall--there may have been reruns that I don’t remember at some point.

And did you watch it all the way through?

I was super interested by the story structure. It has seasons, but each season is a collection of 4ish episode stories. Was there a narrative for the whole season, or not really?

CAROLINE: Not at all. It was a big part of my young childhood but only in the sense that I watched it on TV a lot and loved the characters. I doubt I even cared about or followed the plots.

MIRI: Gotcha

CAROLINE: Again, I'm not exactly an expert. But I believe the storytelling arcs were pretty self-contained with character stuff bleeding over across the seasons

But this Dark Phoenix arc was of course a direct follow-up to the earlier Phoenix arc

MIRI: Cool. Seems like a similar structure to early seasons of Doctor Who

Yes, let’s talk about Phoenix/Dark Phoenix

First of all, I think it’s safe to say that Dark Phoenix is the living embodiment of “Bitch, you thought” memes

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CAROLINE: Ha! I also just want to throw it out there that Jean Grey is my all-time favorite superhero

And yes, Dark Phoenix is an (insane) badass

MIRI: I had never seen a version where the Phoenix is a separate entity rather than a part of Jean that had been walled off inside of her

CAROLINE: Although I do believe that's the comic book origin story

I think TAS is fairly close to comic book canon

But the "internal" Dark Phoenix thing seems to have become the movie and TV norm now

KRIS: Though in general I don’t think of myself as a stickler for comics canon -- having come to comics, I think like many millennials, through various 90s cartoons -- this Phoenix thing does bum me out, partly for how big a deal the Phoenix Force is to the Marvel universe at large, along with characters like the Shi’ar who were introduced in that story. The Avengers vs. X-Men event that spun into 2012′s very successful Marvel NOW! relaunch (one of the things that made recent Marvel comics accessible to relatively casual readers like me) was built around the Avengers trying to permanently end the existential threat of the Phoenix.

MIRI: Interesting. My deep love of the X-men comes solely from the Evolution cartoon. I have no true history knowledge

(Don’t @ me, twitter)

CAROLINE: I'm kind of in the same boat with TAS although I do own a massive encyclopedia of X-Men comic book trivia

MIRI: I hope that sits proudly on your coffee table

CAROLINE: Of course! But I think with everything from character design to storylines, TAS pulled pretty directly from the comics

K: The character designs are specifically the Chris Claremont/Jim Lee era of “Blue Team” and “Gold Team,” recently re-invoked in two of the many X-Men titles spinning out of the recent Inhumans vs. X-Men crossover

(The Phoenix stories are from an earlier, Lee-less Claremont run.)

MIRI: I DEFINITELY want to discuss costumes at some point

CAROLINE: Agreed! But one other thing that really struck me about the Dark Phoenix is just how epic in scope it is.

MIRI: The structure does also feel more comic book-y to me--stories told over a few issues, then a new story,e tc

Oh yes, let’s definitely stay on her for now

Yeah, I was shocked to end up IN SPACE

K: The Shi’ar are pretty wild

CAROLINE: I think that's an element of comic book storytelling that doesn't really get adapted onto the big screen

I mean obviously the MCU is massive

But their crossovers are a huge event

Whereas comic books (and cartoons) can just get epic whenever they feel like it

This one went from a sexy pirate story to a massive interstellar gladiator battle.

K: I don’t know Caroline super well, but I feel confident saying that Space is one of her Top 5 Favorite Things

MIRI: Sidebar: Katherine Janeway and Jean Grey are into the same types of romance novels/holodramas, pass it on

But to your actual point--I was really surprised when they defeated Dark Phoenix at the end of the third episode. I thought the whole thing was going to be an earthbound mutant battle, and then suddenly there’s a space empress!

I like that freedom, which is definitely not a part of most of the film/tv versions.

CAROLINE: Yeah! The stories can literally go anyway. It's really fun to watch.

We even get a little Thor cameo

Albeit briefly

MIRI: Right!

That kind of reminder that it’s all out there and connected is nice, and in this format doesn’t overburden the story

CAROLINE: But I also think the Dark Phoenix arc does a good job grounding all that craziness in character drama

MIRI: Overall yes, but I don’t entirely buy the motivations of the (Dark) Phoenix

They lose me a little with the fact that Jean and Phoenix are both super great/good beings, but combined they’re evil

Like, there are also exhilarating happy emotions. Why isn’t she eating ice cream and having orgasms and looking at puppy gifs online?

CAROLINE: I agree that the plotting is messy as hell, but I always love stories about strong women being afraid of their own power. So I'm kind of willing to overlook how little sense it makes

MIRI: Fair! And the emotional ties within the Xmen work very nicely

CAROLINE: I think that was far and away what I cared about most

The Hellfire Club got a little boring after a while

But I love watching the X-Men be friends

Which I think TAS does really well

MIRI: I actually thought the whole “Kill me Logan, while I’m in control enough to let you” think worked a bit better in X3, but obviously it had this to build off of

Yes, I liked the friend dynamics! I’m a huge sucker for characters actually liking each other

CAROLINE: Umm, I reject the notion that anything about X3 worked on any level.

MIRI: hahahahahahahha

That is your right!

And I wouldn’t ever want to have to defend my point, because that movie is a shitshow

K: I certainly won’t defend it on a storytelling level, BUT I actually still think the set piece at the Grey house holds up pretty well as a standalone-ish thing (my objection to this version of the Phoenix still holds), not least because The Last Stand has one of the best Marvel movie soundtracks, composed by John Powell. The geography of the house is also used in more interesting ways than most action set piece locations.

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CAROLINE: I loved little things like Rogue leaving Scott and Jean alone as soon as they got romantic

MIRI: Wolverine and Scott even seem to care about each other while they’re both in love with Jean, which is very mature

CAROLINE: The relationships (at least among the X-Men) feel lived in and real

MIRI: I didn’t want to love this Rogue because I am deeply committed to loving the Evolutions Rogue, but I found her super charming

She’s just always ready to be enthusiastically upset

She cannonballed into Apocalypse’s calf and it was surprisingly effective!

CAROLINE: She's a huge standout of TAS for me

MIRI: Also she can just fly all the time, apparently? I love it

CAROLINE: I love Lenore Zann's voice acting

Yeah she's basically Superman

But she also can't touch anyone

It's a little weird but it's SUPER fun to watch

K: Rogue’s mutant ability is life-force/memory/power absorption (as also seen in the movies and in X-Men: Evolution), which is usually temporary. In the comics, the one time it stuck was when she got in a fight with Carol Danvers, at the time Ms. Marvel, and absorbed Carol’s powers of super strength and flight. (Carol later picked up additional, “cosmic”-level powers and went through several codename changes.)

MIRI: Is it possible for me to love her voice but hate her accent? Because that’s where I am

CAROLINE: Sure! Although I love both. And her and Gambit together are aces

MIRI: I liked her dropping him into the lake

And ‘What is this, catch the x-men day?’ (I'm misquoting, but that moment)

CAROLINE: It's an incredibly different characterization than the one we got on the films

K: I think this is from the first Phoenix Saga, but I couldn’t pass it up

MIRI: VERY

CAROLINE: *in the films

But I enjoy both

MIRI: Yeah, I think the adultness is a factor here, though certainly not all of it

CAROLINE: For sure! I guess this is really the only major X-Men series not to have a "teen" element

MIRI: It actually made me kind of uncomfortable that none of them were kids. Which is weird, but I’m SO used to the Xavier Institute version of it all

CAROLINE: They do have Jubilee running around sometimes

She's a POV teen in the premiere

But for the most parts they're just kind of The Avengers or something

MIRI: I’m not opposed to that. I was just legitimately shocked for a minute

CAROLINE: Overall I was surprised by how *adult* the whole series felt

Obviously it's aimed at kids

But it's complex and mature and about adulthood

I feel like a lot of kids shows kind of try to talk down to their audience?

But this one doesn't for the most part?

MIRI: Wow, that’s a really interesting point. I can’t think of any kid shows now that have primarily adult casts

Except the Wildkratts, which I am probably spelling wrong but is quality educational programing

CAROLINE: A LOT of stuff happens in this arc. And while there's a lot of hand-holding in terms, it also goes pretty deep

Including exploring the nature of a relationship between two older leaders dedicated to their people

Which, just, isn't what you would think of as kids fair

MIRI: I also like their look at relative morality in the face of a terrible decision

CAROLINE: (Also I meant to say there's a lot of hand-holding in terms of plot BTWs)

MIRI: Scott wants to save Jean, of course! And that’s The Right Thing to do, but everyone involved wants to do the right thing

CAROLINE: Yeah! A very adult conflict

MIRI: And they’re not really demonized for being willing to sacrifice Jean to save billions

Honestly, I think the Empress is in the right. I also think I would make the same decisions as Scott

K: Empress Lilandra is the character Jessica Chastain is reportedly in talks to play in Fox’s forthcoming Dark Phoenix movie

CAROLINE: It's a weird mix of mature thoughtfulness that's also super stilted and dated.

MIRI: That’s a perfectdescription

CAROLINE: Because I do think it feels like a pretty stitled series, especially to modern eyes

MIRI: Very

We expect a lot more realism in our storytelling now

CAROLINE: Not just the 90s aesthetic, but the actual storytelling

For sure.

MIRI: And economy of storytelling

CAROLINE: Although there is that here too sometimes. It's hard to pin down

Also I was legitimately so touched when the X-Men all gave of themselves to save Jean

MIRI: Team as family gets me every time

CAROLINE: That's some great team storytelling right there

MIRI: And they worked together nicely

CAROLINE: And the kind of stuff X-Men does best

MIRI: They all get their moment, but the team work is always present

Also I like that Rogue can and does pick up every single one of the X-Men in this episode

CAROLINE: Ha! I love her so much

I really love all of them. I think the characters are all super vibrant

At least in the X-Men

I was super bored by the Hellfire Club

MIRI: I honestly could not tell you who any of those people were if it weren’t for the more recent men movies

they were boring and not distinctly drawn

(In a character sense, not an animation sense)

CAROLINE: Agreed

I remembered the Hellfire Club being super cool but now I'm not sure if they're better in other episodes or if I was just easily won over as a child

MIRI: I could definietly see them being better in episodes where they’re the focus

CAROLINE: Changing topics: Wolverine saying, "Where's that blasted salami" is maybe the best X-Men moment of all time

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MIRI: I liked Emma’s little fuck you about Phoenix being the new queen

Hahahahahaha that was good

I would argue that his claws are way too spaced out for neat, even slices

CAROLINE: There's something weird going on there for sure

MIRI: Maybe really near the knuckles?

CAROLINE: Maybe he has secret salami powers too

MIRI: I’m going down a dark path of thinking about how much grossness is brought into his body when he retracts the claws after fighting or slicing salami

I mean I know he heals so it’s fine

But ew

CAROLINE: Oh god

MIRI: Right?

CAROLINE: Dark times

MIRI: I’m sorry

CAROLINE: Dark Phoenix times

MIRI: hahahahahhahaa

Nice

CAROLINE: I think the only voice actor I really didn't like is Scott's

MIRI: I could not deal with Xavier’s

CAROLINE: Which is a bummer because he carries a lot of this arc

MIRI: It weirded me out

CAROLINE: Yeah Xavier isn't great either

But it's hard to compare to Patrick Stewart

MIRI: It’s very unfair of me to expect it

I know this

CAROLINE: Who is so throughly Professor X in my head

MIRI: Yeah, between TNG and X-men, he looms damn large in my formative genre culture landscape

M: TNG = Star Trek: The Next Generation, which I was basically raised on

K: Caroline is also a huge Star Trek fan, and last year wrote a Vox explainer/viewing guide for the uninitiated.

CAROLINE: Totally

Should we talk costumes?

MIRI: Yes!

CAROLINE: They're the best

MIRI: First of all, it’s a fun metric on cultural shifts because at least 75% of these guys would be read as gay in the present day

Jean’s mask at the end is really stupid looking and I loved it SO MUCH

That and Wolverine’s mask were just so classic/iconic looking

CAROLINE: Well to be fair that's not her normal outfit in the series

MIRI: Right, it was her super early costume, right?

CAROLINE: She was giving us a little Marvel Girl throwback

Yeah

MIRI: Ohhhhh I totally forgot she was Marvel Girl!

K: Not to be confused with Ms. Marvel, the codename Carol Danvers took in the 70s, and has since been adopted by Kamala Khan. (Carol, an Air Force pilot to be played by Brie Larson in the MCU, is currently Captain Marvel to the superhero community, but Colonel Danvers to the US government. Although maybe Larson’s Carol will just be a Captain Danvers, to avoid general audience confusion?)

CAROLINE: But her regular costume is also kind of ridiculous

K: That’s not a bunch of skin showing, it’s just a confusingly flesh-toned bodysuit. I always liked the crystal (?) in her headband thing though.

M: This isn’t even her “regular” costume but it is something that could not be ignored.

K: It’s not her Phoenix costume but it’s what she wears for most of the series

They LOVED their headgear on TAS

MIRI: Which is presumably why she doesn’t have a hero name, right?

CAROLINE: I believe so

K: I tried to find an official answer, but didn’t dig up anything from a publishing perspective. Story-wise, it didn’t have anything to do with either (the first) Captain or Ms. Marvel. As far as I can tell, Jean first stopped using the codename Marvel Girl when she started calling herself Phoenix, and then some time post-Dark Phoenix, she decided to go by her civilian name. Maybe just because it had been a while since they were really writing her as a “girl”?

MIRI: I liked all of their dark head covering headband things that didn’t cover their faces or hair, but did cover the rest of the head

I don’t know what to call them

CAROLINE: It's a true X-Men staple

And it's so weird to see Gambit without his

MIRI: Like, when I think about it too much I have logic questions. But I love them and don’t want them changed at all

CAROLINE: The costumes are also all straight out of the comics.

K: Mostly designed by Jim Lee in the late 80s, possibly explaining all the shoulder pads. For better or worse (as an admitted non-expert, I think a bit of both), Lee is one of the most influential artists and publishers in the medium, and currently one of the top folks at DC.

MIRI: Storm’s earrings are killer

CAROLINE: Really everything about Storm is amazing

Another voice performance I love

MIRI: Yes! I loved her narration of her powers

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CAROLINE: Haha! Same

So dramatic

Arguably too much so but it totally works

MIRI: Yes! I sat there thinking that I should be annoyed by it, but I just wanted more

I did not love that Rogue’s costume was apparently so shrink-wrapped on that I think I could see her internal organs

CAROLINE: I mean it is but I'm just so into her whole design

I really forgot how much I loved her on this series

MIRI: Yes, the design of the costume is great!

The mullet-ness of the white in her hair is not a styling choice I would make, but she’s free to do her

CAROLINE: Oh also Jean's Phoenix hair is AMAZING

MIRI: I also really liked the space aesthetics

CAROLINE: Keep the powers just for that!

MIRI: Ooh, yes! Both the updo and the big loose look

The guys’ lips were all the same color as the rest of their faces and once I noticed it I couldn’t stop noticing it

CAROLINE: Ha!

I will say, as much as I love many other iterations of the X-Men, these will always be the iconic X-Men looks for me

As I think they are for many people

MIRI: That makes total sense! They’re not entirely for me, but they definitely did resonate

Before the MCU became such a thing, these looks were a lot of the merchandise you saw

And they are just so distinctive

CAROLINE: I LOVE seeing people cosplay in these looks

It brings me such joy

MIRI: I like that they have commonalities without all being in the same exact uniform

Omg, yes!

Even without this era being A Thing for me, I can think of multiple killer Rogue cosplays I’ve taken notice of with this look

CAROLINE: Okay so should we start talking about an era of the X-Men that is a little more iconic for you?

MIRI: Sounds good! But first, I want to say that I feel like you shouldn’t power wash the ancient hieroglyphics tablet nd that was uncool even for villains to do

Also I need a gif of Dark Phoenix saying “I admit nothing”

(Dark Phoenix, Mother of Dragons, the unburnt, breaker of chains, Khaleesi of the great grass sea)

CAROLINE: I need so many GIFs

Mostly the salami one

In Part 2, Miri and Caroline turn to X-Men: Evolution.

X-Men: The Animated Series is streaming on Hulu.

You can follow Caroline on Twitter, and support her on Patreon.

You can also follow us on Twitter, where we mostly retweet critics (including Caroline), screenwriters, and general pop culture reporting.

For now we leave you with perhaps the greatest superhero opening titles [Kanye] OF ALL TIME [/Kanye].

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#X-Men #X-Men: The Animated Series #Dark Phoenix #Dark Phoenix Saga #Jean Grey #TV #superheroes #reaction #Miri #guest reactors #Caroline #Caroline Siede #Kris after the fact #XMen

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