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#anti cegan

Can I just say something about ships-

No matter how hard people like to deny it, what you ship reflects at least a little of who you are. 

Some humans can be so disgusting and ignorant sometimes, so I’m really hoping none of my followers are into immoral ships. You guys are my people, and I pride myself on you guys. 

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Honestly, I tend to think that people who feel the need to defend their favorite ships with statements like “well the ACTOR just turned 18″  or “it’s not pedophilia, it’d be ephebophilia, if it’s anything!” need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

I’m not trying to tell people what to write: it is very possible to write a tasteful romantic story involving teenaged characters with age appropriate love interests.  It is also possible to write a compelling story in which a teenaged character suffers abuse at the hands of an adult.

But it will never be appropriate to treat teenaged characters as tools for adult gratification.  And odds are, if you find yourself using one of the above justifications, that’s exactly what you’re doing.

There are plenty of adult characters that you can ship.  Please consider doing that and leaving the children alone.

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@mycatromance I’m assuming you blocked me since I can’t tag you, or maybe Tumblr mobil is just acting up.

In any case, yes, I have spent a lot of time on this, because this is something that negatively influenced me, and it’s something that negatively influences others, and I care about that, and there is nothing wrong in caring about that, particularly when I have a career and degree in adolescent psychology on this stuff.

You’re telling me to leave people alone when the person this was directed at invalidated my abuse after I told them I’d been influenced by fiction and groomed into a relationship that resulted in me becoming a victim of CSA by turning around and saying reality can’t be influenced by fiction despite me explaining how mine was. If they wanted to debate how many people it influenced, or how strong that influence was, that would have been one thing, but it was another to just say it’s not real and imply the grooming methods my abuser used on me wasn’t real.

I’m not the one you should be telling to leave people alone, particularly when it was this person that commented on my post in the first place.

Maybe they didn’t mean to invalidate my abuse, but they did, and I’m not going to keep quiet about that so they can feel comfortable about shipping something which fetishizes the abuse I and others like me have gone through.

I’m not going to keep repeating myself on how fiction influences reality, so you’re more than free to just look at the debate in the link below.

http://quellines-stories.tumblr.com/post/162523933856/quellines-stories-awareslaura

quellines-stories
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Link~ http://echeveriia.tumblr.com/post/162345808011/cynthianicolexoxo-echeveriia

(They keep blocking me right after replying to me so I can’t reply back with a counterargument to the same reworded and unexplained argument they’ve used every time lol so I wanted to comment on your reply like this.)

I’ve already explained to them how fiction influences reality and they just say it doesn’t without explaining why it doesn’t, which shows they have no real case.

They invalidate abuse survivors by saying it doesn’t occur and then are ableist towards them by implying they’re not right in the mind for being influenced by fiction when the fact is brought up that abusers use normalized and romanticized abusive content in fictional media as a common tool to groom their victims into believing their abuse is normal and romantic. To both invalidate abuse and be ableist shows they rely on winning argument with emotions over facts.

They act as though they as a fandom elder know more about the psychological subject of fiction’s influence on the mind in reality than a person with a degree and career involving a field of adolescent psychology. This shows their poor credentials hurt their argument even more so.

They argue a lot for someone who doesn’t have a real argument and relies on winning people over with emotion VS facts.

It’s clear they do this because they value the entertainment they consume from fictional media over real people being harmed by it. Those ignoring their arguments being countered and agreeing with them shows they also value entertainment over real people, because agreeing with them brings in the personal gain of being able to ship what you want without feeling guilty or dealing with being proven it’s wrong. To value fictional entertainment over real people invalidates an argument instantly.

If they were to counter the arguments as to how fictional ships harm real people and explain why they don’t, then that would be another story, but they do not.

Their replies consist of things such as “this is anti-bullshit” without addressing what exactly is bullshit and how, and the statement “fiction doesn’t influence reality” without an explanation, or some kind of reply as to how something is “cringey” to distract from the fact they can’t argue against the debate at hand.

Overall, they keep rewording themselves by saying something along the lines of “fiction doesn’t influence reality because sane people can separate fiction from reality and I’m not a pedophile!”

However fiction does influence reality as I’ve already explained in many posts, and they haven’t countered none of my explanations.

It’s not a matter of being sane or not, because fiction influences everyone, which I have also explained in many posts, and they have not countered a single explanation in any of them with reasons as to why I’m wrong.

Additionally, they change the meaning of what I say often and act as though me saying “fiction has an influence on reality” is the same as “fiction is not separate from reality” with how they bring up how people can tell the difference between fiction and reality; I am not arguing people can’t tell the difference between fiction and reality, I am arguing that fiction influences reality.

Lastly, they say they’re not a pedophile, and while it’s a red flag for an adult to enjoy both real or fictional content between an underage boy and a man in his fifties, I never said they were a pedophile, so by implying such they’re putting words into my mouth (which weakens their barely bit of an argument even more.) I said they’re contributing to how it’s a common tactic for abusers to prey on minors by using content in fandoms which are normalized and romanticized in fan-made content and canon content, which is content they contribute to by publicly supporting it.

They do not explain their reasoning, they do not source their reasoning, they do not provide credentials to support their reasoning.

Therefore, they so far have a poor argument.

Now then, @echeveriia , you pretty much bring up a lot of good points in all of your replies, particularly the one including sources, but I want to comment on how much I agree with your last reply in the first link up above, and I’ve spoken out about that subject as well in a part of the link below so I won’t have to repeat myself like I’ve had to do with this shipper multiple times with how she just doesn’t provide explained counter arguments.

http://quellines-stories.tumblr.com/post/162225875066/yikes

You’re also very right about pedophiles consuming the content like this that they make since the number of pedophiles, pedophiliac acts, and the acceptance of pedophiles has spiked since the 90s (or 70s or 80s? One of those dates, although I’m fairly sure it was the 90s rather than the other two.) which was the beginning of big fandoms and when normalization and romanticization of abuse and pedophiliac content began, resulting in these numbers increasing more and more and pedophiles becoming more comfortable in sharing fandoms, as well as using fandoms normalizing their actions to prey on minors.

Overall, feel free to keep debating with this person, but please don’t expect them to actually counter any of your arguments with explanations to debunk your reasoning, because out of the four Cegan shippers I’ve spoken with this is the only one to give claims where they insist they’re right without backing up their reasoning for such.

If anything, just argue with her until you counter all her reasonings, and then each time she tries to give that same reasoning just refer her with a link back to your post debunking that reasoning to show until she debunks that reasoning, her argument isn’t valid and yours is the one in the right.

If someone can’t stan for your arguments, they usually don’t have very good arguments, and either stick to them because they’re too stubbornly proud or because sticking to their argument in ethics allows them to believe what they’re doing isn’t wrong since they don’t want to feel guilty and gain something from their side of their argument due to not wanting to lose it.

She gains the chance to consume entertainment over having to give it up to stop contributing to the harm of real people.

People who value one form of fictional entertainment over real people are not worth the time it takes to argue with them, so I suggest just linking back to your arguments whenever she repeats an argument without explaining it or countering yours with good reasoning.

Do what you want of course, but just linking your replies containing your reasoning with a small comment of how she hasn’t debunked them with her reasoning is the easiest way to just get on with things quickly rather than having to repeat your laid out reasoning a bunch of times to her unexplained statement which keeps being reworded without even countering yours at all lol :)

quellines-stories
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As much as I despise all the hate in tags I have to say all the debates that go on surrounding consent, and the role of fiction in establishing our own morals and beliefs is super interesting.
I always seem to ship the unhealthy/smaller ships as I view fiction as a way of exploring relationships that I’d never be part of in real life. So I’ve never really considered it as abnormal or strange until I started shipping cegan. I’ve never seen such a rise in people that hate on it, even when I was in the Snarry fandom which is so much more controversial than cegan. So it got me wondering why this ship in particular gets so much hate. Is it because of a immaturity in the haters who see things are very one dimensional and who themselves can’t distinguish between fiction and reality? Or is it because it’s a smaller ship so it’s easier to shout and be heard. I only ask because I don’t see half as much hate on ships like Aria/Ezra tags even though it’s 1000x more damaging. Also is there hate on the Enid/Carl tag? Are they all perverts for shipping two underage characters? Is it not weird to sit at home and be happy that two 16 (I’m saying 16 as I have no idea what the real age of the characters is supposed to be) are kissing? Is that not endorsing child pornography?

I feel like there’s a significant lack of appreciation that the age of consent changes depending on country. So for me someone older dating a 16 year old isn’t disgusting it’s just weird and unrealistic. My country believes that you can make educated decisions about sex at the age of 16 and that is in a world where there isn’t a zombie apocalypse happening (I feel like that would make a person mature a little bit)

I also don’t believe that it’s the responsibility of the media and fiction writers, whether they be fan-fiction or TV show writers, to uphold a certain moral standard. Surely more emphasis should be on informing people that these relationships in real life aren’t healthy rather than telling people not to write about them. It’s comparable to people that enjoy certain fantasies i.e lots of people enjoy rape fantasies but I sincerely doubt anyone would want to be raped in real life. So why isn’t it acceptable for people to fantasize and talk about these ships in a semi-private sphere?

Why hold writers accountable for ‘promoting unhealthy relationships’ when they are merely using writing as a creative outlet?


And this whole critique of aging up characters is super strange because arguably we’re all just waiting for people to be legal 😂 Why is it such a problem to age up characters? Sometimes characters have a super interesting dynamic (like Carl and negan) due to their personalities (not their physical appearance) which makes it more fun to ship them.

The whole reason I ship Carl and Negan is because I love the older/younger partner dynamic it’s something I like in my own private life and I enjoy seeing it in fanfiction. It’s also incredibly fucking hot that Carl is Negan’s enemy son, I find rough sex/hate sex a huge turn on (sorry for the tmi guys but I can’t shut up now) and there’s nothing wrong with wanting to read about it or enjoying that dynamic within any sort of pairing where the characters are of age. What doesn’t turn me on is an older person having sex with a underage person. To reiterate my earlier point 16, for me, is the age of consent (blame English law guys) so as long as the characters are above that then it’s OK in a sexual context. I do know that a lot of people complain because they see shipping Cegan with shipping Chandler with Jeff but that is a big assumption to make. Firstly it assumes that a person is using those images when reading fan fiction which isn’t always the case. Secondly Chandler is now 17 I believe which again makes him more than legal over here so why the hell not.

Moreover you’ve got all the general issues about the show like what kind of people are we that would enjoy a show that shows characters being beheaded or beaten to death? Or that would have a kid shoot his mom? Given the argument that fiction like cegan encourages abusive relationships would that mean that the show endorses killing people? How is that not worse?

Where is all the ranting on that? Another point to consider because my brain is clearly not done with this topic is the type of relationships these characters have. I know a lot of the antis like to say that shipping cegan romanticises abuses romantics relationships but can I just point out that a lot of the fiction out there isn’t about them being in a relationship? Most of the time it’s about sex. Any romantic fiction that exists (and trust me I’ve read all of them) places the characters as over 18 and in an alternative reality setting. All the fiction I’ve read has never appeared to suggest that their relationship is a healthy one. This ship thrives on the fact that it’s unhealthy and problematic, I don’t think a single shipper out there would ever say it’s a good example of a perfect relationship. It is however a good example of an interesting dynamic and I find it fascinating to see how people bring the couple to life.

OK I’m done ranting now 😂 feel free to reply to this post I’m not siding one way or another these are more my thoughts from several years of being in fandoms and shipping weird ships. I’m genuinely interested to hear what people say on the topic. Personally I’m a very liberal person. I don’t care who ships as long as long as you do it in the privacy of your own tag.

Oh and don’t bother replying if all you’re going to do is stick to one line hate or whatever. I’m actually looking to learn about more sides of this argument not just read shit.

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i follow the carl tag for gifs of my son being badass not to see him being shipped with an adult who has killed multiple friends of him you disgusting fucks

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Stop. Just stop. We don’t care about what you have to say about our ship. We will not feel bad because you telling us we are nasty, or shitty, or bad people… You can come to our tag and said anything you want to said but all we have to do (we’ve done it alredy and we will keep doing it) is block you. Deal with your shit just take us two seconds so you’re wasting you time. Do you want to make a better world? Block us and go on with your lives, go plant a tree, feed a homeless person, but stop annoying us. 

Thanks, have a good day. 

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Some of you need to reevaluate things. I want one, just one, reason why you’d even think to ship Carl and Negan. Carl is a child, and Negan is a manipulative piece of shit. What part of that screams shipping material? Seriously, just when I thought this fandom couldn’t get any worse…

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