I honestly feel like the reason I have to keep reiterating the same points about characters like N/esta is because there is just a lot of hypocrisy involved in her character and a lot of assumptions that just kind of get tossed out about her. She’s similar to T/amlin and even E/lain in that regard, where the narrative around them is not reliable, and what’s said about them through F/eyre’s point of view is often skewed to fit any given narrative. Needless to say, I have yet another rant about N/esta.
It’s not even that she’s the greatest character ever, or that I would even consider myself a full on N/esta “stan.” But, like many of my rants, her character is usually representative of bigger, overarching problems in SJM’s writing. It’s always relevant to include other characters in this series in any analysis, because the problem is that the villainization of N/esta, or E/lain, or T/amlin, or L/ucien is always dependent on the framing of others. F/eyre is always integral in discussing N/esta because it is through F/eyre that N/esta is foiled. Even a character like R/hysand is worth discussing because, again, the standard of good and bad is always centered back to him.
This post is positioned around the “abuse” category assigned to N/esta. The argument between “stans” and “antis” alike is whether or not N/esta and E/lain are “abusive sisters.” And when this argument comes up, there is always the deployment of personal experiences, articles, sources about abuse, etc., -- which is great, and reiterates an understanding of the importance of these topics. The problem is the unreliable narrative voice and the distinction between what is said and what is done. Because when the narrative needs us to feel sympathy for F/eyre, N/esta’s is antagonized, but the actions of N/esta throughout all of the books either jar with it, or completely negate it. Simply put, there is not really enough evidence to classify their relationship as anything. We don’t know. The story isn’t written reliably enough to confirm of negate that. There isn’t. And even the bits of information we do get via F/eyre are often conflicting. Because F/eyre hates N/esta and says she can hear her voice, but then admits that N/esta would have gone Under the Mountain for her, and as we saw with N/esta’s actions, this actually fits exactly in line with that sentiment. The same even goes for E/lain, who sacrifices her marriage and social status to help aid the Night Court when they needed a human emissary. So, can we honestly, truly understand their relationship? Nope. I don’t even think SJM knew, because either she realized just how ridiculous their dynamic was, or she just forgot. In five books, SJM still does not know how to classify their relationship. Because there really isn’t one. And depending on how you read these books, either side is culpable. There wouldn’t be this big a divide if these books were written clearly enough to confirm. And it’s hard when people attach their personal experience to a story not a complete enough to actually back it up. It’s not like we’re reading a story that realistically covers like abuse and trauma. If that were the case, there wouldn’t be a story, because both R/hys and T/amlin would be defined correctly as ugly abusers, there wouldn’t be the need to explain away R/hys’s behavior. There wouldn’t be an argument about either F/eyre was abusive in FAS or SF if this story actually cared about the topics beyond glorifying F/eyre and antagonizing literally everyone else. So yeah, I know this was already a lot, but expect that rant cause it’s totally brewing.
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Why would SJM have written all that sexual tension between Elriel, the near kiss, Azriel being ready to beg on his knees to eat out Elain (lmao he's got it bad) if she wasn't planning to make anything happen between them?? Guys, Ms Sarah Janet wants Azriel to fuck. She wants Azriel smut. So much that she nearly included a threesome involving him in acosf that made no sense to the story and she took it out because she'd have to deal with the implications of it. She set up all the tension and conflict; Elain and Azriel are gonna get it on there is just no doubt about it, and with this new trilogy format of one couple per book, there would just never be enough time to switch love interest halfway through.
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Breaking the bond & choosing their own fate
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surfalldaybaby said: I actually disagree. Elain has seen death looked it in the face w her sisters and Rhys ans mor and cassian and Azriel ans lucien Im sure she’s not ignorant to the violence that they all do. She might not support it or partake but she’s not meek. Lucien was part of the team that forced her to turn far az saved her. I don’t think violence is a romantic or plantoic deterent for her she just doesn’t choose to identify w it
i don’t see elain as meek. not wanting to be surrounded by violence is not meek. it’s knowing your limits and knowing yourself. i don’t think someone capable of shoving a dagger through the throat of someone trying to murder her sister is meek. and i also don’t think knowing that violence is not something she wants in her life is meek either. it takes a lot of strength to know your limitations and what’s best for you.
i think elain can handle a lot, but it’s canon that the inner circle (people who have known azriel for over 500 years) find his methods of torture and interrogation unsettling and disturbing. so someone like elain, who does not like violence and walked away from it after the war, i doubt would be as willing to accept that side of him. but hey, we don’t know for sure, maybe elain would be really into watching az torture people with truth teller - we don’t know cause she hasn’t been there.
that was the point of my post. elain has not witnessed azriel lose control of his temper or seen him as the cold torture master. she has only seen him as her savior and quiet companion. being the silent and kind bat boi is not all azriel is and i do not see elain being able to accept all his darkness. and it shouldn’t be her responsibility to change everything about who she is to fit into his world.
now as for lucien, you are correct he was there when she was taken, turned, and traumatized. she saw him there next to tamlin. but do you know what else she saw? she saw him fight to get to her, she saw him break away from hybern and shelter her, she saw him not being complicit to her trauma. does she blame him for being turned? we don’t know cause we haven’t gotten inside her head, but i doubt it. it seems her biggest issue is the bond and not that he was there when she was turned. but i could be wrong. she may harbor ill feelings toward him for being there with tamlin - though we don’t have her book yet so all this speculation doesn’t make it true.
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Just a “I am so frustrated with the Elain antis” rant post. Ship who you want to ship
I do not understand how people can say Elain is cruel to Lucien. The word cruel is quite extreme don’t you think? Yet she is labeled as such because of her few interactions with Lucien.
Lucien contributed to Elain’s trauma. How big of a role he played in it doesn’t matter, because she still connects him with being put into the Cauldron. There are a ton of things she could’ve done or said to him afterwards, but instead of being mean she is still polite.
But because Elain didn’t ask Lucien if he wanted milk in his tea she is a “bitch” right?
She is constantly hated on for her people pleasing ways. I personally consider it a flaw since I think it hurts her but we won’t get into that right now. However, when she isn’t the nicest person to ever exist, when she isn’t being the most people-pleasing person she could possibly be, all of a sudden this is another reason for why you think she deserves to die? Stop with the contradictions and make up your mind.
Also while we are on the topic, I have seen people say that Elain is leading Lucien on.
First of all, lead on? What has Elain done to show that she has been leading Lucien on. Seriously, has she shown interest in him ever? Has she made it seem like she wants to be with him and then try to be with someone else?
And second, why doesn’t Lucien go to Feyre and say “Hey Feyre can you ask Elain if we can talk? Can we at least try to have a discussion? Does she want to be with me or is that never going to happen?” But does he? No. Not that we know of. And as of ACOSF, it seems like he hasn’t really tried talking to Elain after dropping off those gifts in ACOFAS. But all of this blame goes to Elain. It goes on this newly made fae who had no idea mates existed until two years ago. Why doesn’t the guy who knows about the customs and the rules say something?
While I agree Elain and Lucien need to have a talk, I think it is completely unfair to call her cruel because she is keeping distance between them.
Elain “damned if she does and damned if she don’t” Archeron
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honestly all the elriel elucien gwynriel arguments are so funny because they're pulling up quotes and shit and i can 99% guarantee that sjm did not intend any of it
she has the consistency of a first-time fanfiction writer and clearly doesn't plan anything in her books but sex
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Also, I don’t get the hate on N/esta at the point it’s at. Like I know people don’t like her, which duh, but like the extreme hatred just kind of...surprises me? I guess?
Like this series sets everyone up as morally grey, and literally starts with the protag killing a man in cold-blood, and it’s leading love interest is introduced mind-r*ping his mate. F/eyre gives up an innocent girls name, and R/hysand is like a lieutenant to a tyrant. I’m just confused on people who hate N/esta or E/lain with violent fervor. Like yeah, it’s understandable to dislike them, but the moral system is just so unbalanced with everyone.
When is bad, bad? When is it good to be bad? What are the qualifications for redemption?? I just don’t understand the hate blogs on N/esta or E/lain that kind of just hate them. Maybe in another novel where everyone’s pretty cool. But in this series?? Even Jurian. Like why is he hated at all? Graysen? Like what makes them bad? Why aren’t they able to be morally grey? Or just straight up heroic for standing for humanity?
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Elucien/Jesminda thing i find weird:
"Her sister’s delicate scent of jasmine and honey"
Elain smells of jasmine...
Idk i just find this weird considering Jesminda is Lucien's first and only (that we know of) love and Elain is his mate.
But maybe this is SJM foreshadowing idek anymore.
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i’ve been thinking about how purposeful sjm has been not having elain see certain sides of azriel. she was not there to witness his outburst at the high lord’s meeting, she was not there when the inner circle watched him torture information from autumn soldiers in acosf, she was not there when he threatened her mate’s life… all these instances of violence and she has never witnessed them. elain has only ever seen azriel as the quiet and kind warrior who rescued her. i think sjm has been very specific to who has seen az’s brutality because when elain finally witnesses this she will not be able to accept this side of him.
she has already been established as someone who cannot stand violence. she may have killed the king of hybern, but she handed truth teller back and told lucien how much war and violence was not for her. i don’t think the destruction of e/riel will be this necklace or mate business. it will be elain finally seeing who azriel is and walking away the way she did when she gave him back his dagger.
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I really hope Elain stays in the NC, but I've seen people saying that her family cuddles her, so she would hvae to leave to grow. What do you think?
Hello there! I think this already started to change in ACSF: Feyre actually asked Elain to see the Trove, Amren was being pushy, Rhysand didn't object, Cassian understood and I doubt Mor would object either.
The idea of Nesta's scrying is because 1) it was Nesta's book, obviously and 2) Elain would need a little time to dust off her powers.
The only two that hesitated were Azriel (because he already knows how it feels to have Elain in danger and, considerando she is his love interest and he is a Sjm's character, he will be protective of her well being) and Nesta.
But if you are asking me if I think Elain will "grow" with a bunch of strangers and her mate who she can't even stand in a house that it was supposed to be hers because it belonged to her ex fiancee who broke her heart... I doubt it. Especially when every once of Elain's newfound boldness is lost and her smile fades away around Lucien.
But if you're asking me if I thinkshe will leave the NC for a mission to help her home and then come back... that I can see.
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me watching ppl compare elucien to tamlin x elain
lucien: *sees elain once a year to give her a gift*
tamlin: *throws feyre into a wall*
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Elain and Lucien and the Bond
So I have to comment on this again. I find myself frustrated. A lot of people only look at it through the skewed lenses of Feyre, Rhys, and all of the other mated pairs SJM has written. So before I begin let me preface this by saying a few things: 1) I do not hate Elucien. I am not against it becoming canon. I think there’s potential, but they have a long way to go. 2) While I am going to talk about Lucien in what I think might be perceived as a negative light, I do not hate him. I do not dislike him. I rather like him. But because so many people like him (and so many dislike/don’t care about Elain) they don’t look at how she might be perceiving things.
So Let’s start with something that I think is important.
Elain is often criticized for not rejecting the bond. People won’t accept that there’s a possibility that she doesn’t know there might be more to it than the not one, but two times we see in canon (and possibly more if Feyre and her nosiness is any indication). I think there are two problems here.
Elain not knowing is very fitting for her at this time. While she’s taken steps to learn about and begin embracing Fae life, it’s very clear she’s still adjusting. And that’s OKAY. She has eternity more or less to figure shit out. (I also think it would have been okay for it to take Nesta longer to deal with her shit, even if i understand the intervention was for her own good). But because of her ended engagement (in which her fiance threw the bond in her face and told her she belonged to Lucien because of it) and her budding feelings for Azriel (Because whether you like it or not that’s there. And it’s okay), she likely doesn’t want to even think about the mating bond. Let alone learn more about it. She’s rejected the bond twice at least. And I think that it’s reasonable to her character to believe that’s that. Especially with keeping him at an arm’s length. She’s making no moves to further anything between them. That alone sounds like someone who isn’t interested. To his indirect actions, her indirect actions are equal.
Why is she the one responsible for handing the whole thing? Lucien is the one from the culture with mating bonds. He hasn’t asked her for anything. They expect Elain to be forthright with him about the bond, but not him with her? He could be straight forward with her. He could ask her; whether it be to give him an answer (probably not the ideal) or to at least spend time together and get to know each other. But he has just as much a responsibility to be direct with her, if he wants direct from her.
Now. let’s talk about some of the other things.
I think that while Lucien might be kind of giving her space while also trying to build something, it’s important to note that from her perspective some of his actions might not come across that way. And while we as readers (and Elain probably does too) understand that Lucien is not doing anything maliciously, or with ill intent, she might feel like he is trying too hard.
Her actions around him show she is uncomfortable. (I don’t care if the word uncomfortable hasn’t been used. Her actions show it). She keeps her distant. Only engages in polite conversation. And is eager for excuses to leave his company. Yet he still comes around, still asks for her company (which going back to how she was raised, she’s not likely to reject because it would be rude), and is giving her gifts while she clearly did not feel close enough to reciprocate. Whether you agree or not, it is possible that from her perspective he is giving her unwanted affection and ignoring what she likely thinks are clear signs of disinterest.
Between those things and the fact that she doesn’t return the gifts, people seem to think she’s leading him on. But she doesn’t use the gifts. And again, looking at how she was raised, it could be considered rude/unlady like to reject a gift. So she doesn’t. The only reason she didn’t keep Az’s was because he rejected her and told her them almost kissing was a mistake. But we know that she’s uncomfortable by the gifts. The “barely gave a thanks” draws to mind the image of someone who was given a gift they’re not a fan so they give that cringe/smile and say thanks in that tone that tries to sound happy but isn’t.
Now maybe Elain isn’t being clear enough. Maybe Lucien isn’t noticing that. Maybe he is, but he’s holding on to hope to break through just enough that they can get to know one another.
My point here is that Elain’s perspective is equally important here. And that there are many things at play with these two. Yes, they’re going on two years of this nonsense. But it is not wholly to blame on Elain. They both play a part in it.
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ok this is for the elriels.
nuala and cerridwen are to elain what alis was to feyre
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Elain’s birthday cannot be in January. That’s been established mathematically. But let’s talk abt ball season cause that’s the time frame for the Nesta was 12 and Elain barely 11 bit. Ball season now often refers to Vienna ball season which is in January and February. But the Season in 18/19th century London, which is what I’m guessing sjm meant when referencing balls think Bridgerton people, that was from April-August. So if Elain was barely 11 during ball season she was born in April-August.
exactly. it's been debunked already, especially when you consider that nesta was born sometime in spring and she's at least a year older than elain but we all know that e/riels ignore things that make it clear their ship isn't endgame so basically.... they ignore everything lmfao
i mean maybe sjm will work around this and just make elain's birthday in january but i'm sorry elain is not a person who was born in january. she is a spring/summer baby all the way.
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If people were to just talk about the ship they like and stop meddling with the opposing ship and stop detracting from the other character, especially when it has not even created drama, we will live in peace. I did the test and entered Elain's tag, generally I do not do it for fear of seeing how they hate a character who still does not tell her story (as they did with Nesta) and there were many disparaging posts directed at Elain, of her as a person and their hobbies, entering the profiles of these publications and seeing the content of these, is not something surprising and they generate two questions: do they hate Elain and therefore ship those characters? or because of a ship they start to hate Elain ?.
Whatever the reason, and this applies to any characters, you should stop talking about characters that you don't like, because I think it becomes almost the obsession of some people to do this.
If you hate a character, just stop talking about it, stop appearing in the feed of people who do like them, and please stop making fun of real people's situations, experiences and personalities.
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I'd like to remember you that Feyre doesn't owes her siblings anything. she never did. Feyre didn't need to help them, to feed them or to sustain them in general, but even so she did. she always thought about Nesta and Elain, she always tried to help them and never stop fighting for them, because she's that good. but Feyre doesn't need to help Nesta or Elain, Feyre doesn't owe neither of them anything.
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I call this
✨Character development ✨
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If Gwyn if replacing Elain, then Emerie is replacing Azriel as the scarred Carynthian with a crush on Mor
All hail the new Spymaster and Shadowsinger of the Night Court: Emerie of Illyria
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Am I the only one that finds Feyre absolutely insufferable to read through?
I’m still on book 2 and I find her POV so insufferable, and annoying, but it actually mentally exhausting me from Reading.￼￼￼￼
I think this book would be better if the first half was a retelling of acotar through Nesta’s or Elain’s POV
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