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#but still just....to see a gay character so intentional about believing the good in humanity
blondephenobarbitol · 6 months
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TSH hot takes 🔥
-Julian was actually a dick. He isolated and groomed vulnerable students (do you think it's a coincidence that every single member of the greek class had a difficult home life?) into thinking that these very outdated concepts of love and power were good for them. He compared their dangerous behaviour to that of ancient gods. Then, rather than face the consequence of his actions and take accountability, he left when it mattered.
-Charles was an asshole, but he's not a scapegoat. You cannot blame all the problems on Charles, he was an addict as a result of his trauma. He needed help. This doesn't excuse him from his actions, but it explains them. At the beginning of the book he physically could not bring himself to hurt Camilla. He's not a "bad" person. He's a sick person.
-Bunny didn't deserve to die, but he was also probably going to condemn the group at some point. He didn't just die for no reason. (Believing that Bunny's death was truly pointless also means believing that Henry was an actual psychopath who killed his friend for shits and giggles.)
-Judy, Cloke and Sophie ended up the happiest. That is literally the moral of the book. Judy wasn't all tortured when Richard didn't want to hang out with her, she shook it off and kept living her life. That's literally the point.
-Richard was never in love with Camilla. He loved the idea of her, but didn't see her as a person. Because of this specific dynamic and the fact the Richard is narrating, we know nothing about her actual personality. Anything he says can be disputed, and a lot of it contradicts itself.
-Francis is not blameless or unproblematic, but of the group he probably had the best intentions. Most of his behaviour that can be interpreted as creepy can be chalked up to Richard's internalized homophobia (remember, everything is told from his point of view, and Francis was a gay man in the 80's) When you look objectively at what Francis did, you see that he made a pass, got rejected, then dropped it and moved on. There is (i think) one more attempt made later on in the book, and that is furthered by Richard and only interrupted when Charles shows up.
-Henry may be the metaphorical representative of death when talking about the book, but in the narrative it's important to remember he's also just a person. Otherwise everything he does seems beyond question, and he's assigned this label as just "evil." He was 21!! Literally still a kid
-There were not good or bad characters. The reason they hit so hard is because each of them are so layered. They all have good traits and bad traits, but calling one "evil" takes away their humanity and dismisses their complexity that makes them so great.
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mari-lair · 10 months
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Who do you imagine confessing first? Kou or Mitsuba? How would you envision or want a mitsukou confession to go down?
Mitsuba!
I personally see Kou as someone that hides when his feelings are something he is ashamed off. He needs to be pushed to the edge, to express any big conflict he has, otherwise he can spend years bottling it up.
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And even when Kou is so consumed by a feeling that he needs to vent, he is quick to focus on others.
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He is a character that doesn’t like to indulge in his own wants, not feeling like he deserve it, or ashamed of wanting more for himself. Hence why he was so panicked in the red house and why I believe love in a manga where being in love is mostly depicted in selfish or obsessive ways would conflict him to death
And Mitsuba absolutely conflicts him. When the topic is directly brought up he tends to go ‘...’ and sweat
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He does not want to think about Mitsuba at all despite constantly thinking about him.
The only person he has talked about Mitsuba with (outside mitsuba himself) is Nene, and the intention seems to had been to just catch her up with Mitsuba's situation. The glimpses of personal troubles he shares seem to have been on accident.
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It's enough to make him sweat and change subjects with a smile, as if thinking “I shouldn’t have said that, let’s forget about it!”
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Kou either has no idea what he feels or he does have some idea but doesn’t want to. I think he is mostly confused though. Which makes sense cause his feelings about Mitsuuba are hella complicated.
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Kou seems to think whatever he feels is a sort of strange and convoluted annoyance, which is a similar conclusion to what Mitsuba had reached at first.
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But while Kou is still mostly stuck in “god why do I need him? Why do i think so much about him?? He is annoying.” stage, refusing to explore or indulge in the positive feelings Mitsuba brings, Mitsuba already know a lot about his own feelings and he does not hesitate to share them.
He understands the problems of a ghost being attached to a human and vice versa, so he has reasons to not confess, but even if there is conflict, he doesn’t run away from his feelings.
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Mitsuba was the one that informed Nene about their little aquarium trip. She had no idea before, so Kou (who is far closer to her) didn’t share anything.
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Even if Kou does realizes he is in love, I personally can't imagine he would try to start a relationship, cause he wants the very best for the people he loves and he does not consider himself a good option.
Remember his crush on Nene? How he never made a move and tried to do what would make her happy? He pushed her to stay with Hanako the second he felt like he was not just some ‘evil spirit’, he never considers himself a better option than the dead murderer at any point, and he is very quick to sabotage himself for others.
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So he would likely just hate himself for thinking he is not the best but still wants to be the one to help Mitsuba, be the one he depends on, and stay by his side. Unwilling to be ignored.
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And I can’t imagine being so conflicted and hating yourself as a very good push to confess to someone.
But I can imagine Mitsuba accidentally confessing, since it was shown constantly that this boy is gay as hell for kou and that he can’t lie. He feels something strongly? There is a big chance he will blurt it out: No bravado, no filter.
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And if this confession does happen, I have no idea how I want it to go down.
I just know I want Kou to sabotage himself somehow, cause that’s what this boy constantly does with Mitsuba, and I just can’t imagine a confession being smooth and sappy with them regardless of who ends up confessing in canon, it would just feel out of character to me, unless of course, it has the proper set up/character development for it.
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horde-princess · 10 months
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Nimona's origin story - or lack of one - is so important to me. like first she lies to you, then there's a weird metaphor that may or may not have anything to do with her, then finally at the very end there's a real flashback which clarifies. almost nothing?? EXCEPT perhaps it leads you away from the possibility that she's being possessed. personally my thinking is that she was born as a "regular" shapeshifter and became this colossal monster after she was "lab-modified." but i can't say that with any confidence, maybe the monster was part of her all along and the trauma just brought it out. maybe nimona herself doesn't know.
as frustrating as it felt to read at times, the ambiguity is the whole point. it's a commentary on how society (specifically christianity) will look at something it doesn't understand and try to stuff it into boxes it just doesn't fit in.
the whole "gloreth's beast" metaphor is so insane to me because it confuses you as the reader and makes you wonder if maybe nimona IS actually this satanic creature, or possessed by him. despite all your good intentions and your fondness for nimona as a character, there's a part of you which wonders if it might be true, because the author himself is implying it to you. it's only at the end that nate hints otherwise but still he leaves it up to the audience to wrestle with their own interpretation of what they've just read. i don't think i figured it out until the part where it says nimona's parents believed a monster had taken the place of their daughter.. i was like oohhhh i see what you did there
i've heard it said that nimona is a commentary on how society views lgbt+ people as a threat and i do think that sums it up nicely but. it's a story about how religion views queer people as a threat, how conservative christians stay in power by labeling us as the enemy, and how they get us to internalize this queerphobia so that we lose the will to rebel against them. it's about how oppressors have no say in how people take their stolen freedom back.
ITS ABOUT bipolar disorder and mental illness!!!! and the prejudice & discrimination & outcasting this community endures, which intersects uniquely with queerphobia and is still used today to characterize being gay and trans as mental disorders, as if that somehow justifies the hatred in their minds.
it's about addressing the fear & confusion surrounding the existence of queer people - "are they born this way? are they possessed by satan? are they mentally ill? are they a product of childhood trauma?" and Nimona is essentially like, sure. all of the above. or none of them. who cares? i'm here and i'm a human being - you don't have to understand me to treat me like one.
idk how/if the nimona movie plans to handle the ambiguity of her origin but its so so important i hope they're able to honor the spirit of it 😭🙏
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firecrackerhh · 7 months
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I’m so fucking tired of hearing people bitch that Viv’s shows are bad queer rep or something like I’m sorry, do you think every LGBT+ person or minority is fucking incapable of doing bad things? Do you think they are immune from doing bad things purely off their minority status?
Stop putting minorities, sexual or otherwise on fucking pedestals. Not every fucking queer person is a fucking uwu soft baby who just needs a hug or whatever.
Queer people do bad things, BIPOC do bad things. You know why?
Because they are human, and thus they are just as capable of being a fucking piece of shit as anyone else.
And those kinds of people deserve representation too! Stop being a whiny bitch cus the show isn’t representing you specifically or whatever.
Ngl if anything I think that’s kinda fucking offensive tbh like holy shit, just because you’re obviously a whiny fucking baby with the emotional maturity of a fucking 7 year old at best doesn’t mean every other LGBT person is as sensitive as you. Get over it.
To essentially imply that certain human beings are incapable of making bad decisions purely off of their minority status is fucking infantilizing and it’s fucking gross. Fuck you.
Plenty of LGBTQ people like Viv’s stuff, if you don’t like it, whatever, but claiming it’s bad queer rep, likely because you’re so terrified of conservatives that you don’t want to “rock the boat” as it were, if you think such rep shouldn’t exist because of the inevitable conservative backlash or whatever, you’re a fucking coward and I don’t respect you.
Newsflash, conservatives want you dead no matter what. It doesn’t matter if you’re the “good gay” they still hate you! They still want you to suffer for your “sin.” Whether intentional or otherwise, using their talking points is fucking disgusting. Do you have any fucking respect for yourself?
Putting people on pedestals, thinking they can do no wrong ever, is fucking delusional. Get your fucking head out of your ass and realize that human beings come in all shapes and sizes. Bad queers and BIPOC exist and showing the messy parts of their lives in media isn’t fucking “bad” queer or BIPOC rep just because you don’t relate to it.
So fucking entitled, so bratty, go watch The Owl House or some bullshit if you want squeaky clean LGBT rep.
Take your whiny bratty bullshit and fucking shove it up your ass you disgustingly pathetic crybabies. You spineless cowards.
LGBT and BIPOC folks deserve to have their stories told, even if they aren’t squeaky clean or family friendly. If you think otherwise you’re fucking retarded, sorry not sorry.
Never mind the fact that the point of Hazbin Hotel specifically is about redeeming people that have done horrible shit. If you see their bad actions and immediately think “bad queer rep” without taking into account the whole point of the fucking show is watching these terrible people become better, then I don’t know what to tell you. I think your brain is fucking broken.
Perhaps these people get so mad because they don’t believe in redemption, that any mistake you made is a stain on your character permanently. I wonder what skeletons they must hide if that’s the case…
Viv is not your enemy. And the fact you act like she is shows just how fucking retarded you actually are. These people don’t even know who their real enemies are, it’s fucking pathetic.
🧨🔥~Firecracker out~🧨🔥
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whatdostarsdo · 2 years
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So I recently saw a post about discovery being the queerest star trek and I said I wasn’t going to write a speech about why it’s actually ds9, but i did it anyway.
So! Below the cut I’ve listed most of the queer moments and queercoding that I remember from my two watches of ds9. There are a lot of them! So even if you don’t read the whole thing I still urge you to watch ds9 if you’re a fan of trek and want to see queer trek!
Note: this post contains spoilers for ds9
In explicit canon:
-Jadzia Dax was the first canonically pansexual and transgender main character in Star Trek. No one ever makes a big deal of this. She is shown correcting people on her name and pronouns on screen and people just rolling with it!
-Rejoined: jadzia falls in love with a woman on screen, the entire cast supports her. They tell a queer story by including an in-universe taboo on reassociation, and beautifully pull off a queer story where women loving each other is seen as natural and normal, but also reflects on the taboos of gay relationships in present society!
-mirrorverse ezri and Kira’s lesbian kiss!!!! (the entirety of the mirror verse is so queer, actually)
-we hear about a man giving birth in casual conversation and this is treated as normal. He gets paternity leave! “You mean he’s pregnant?” “Yes!” “Oh I should send him something”
-a cross dressing ferengi woman is better at finances than quark and gives him gay panic when she starts hitting on him as a guy- by the end of the episode it’s implied that he did actually reciprocate. This was an Interesting one.
-that time quark had to dress up as a woman to further the woman’s rights movement : granted this was mostly played for laughs but the implication of quark getting mtf surgery in like an hour no questions asked sure is something, and most of the humor comes from the fact that it’s Quark.
-O’Brien saying he wishes his wife could be more like a man sometimes (this man is bisexual)
-Changelings don’t have gender. Odo doesn’t have a gender. He is literally gender fluid. I believe it was one of the comics where he pointed this out as an excuse to help Kira do a mother-daughter thing. But yeah he’s very explicitly chosen his human form and gender, which is pretty neat!
-so much sex positivity! They have so much sex on this show! We see odo lose his human and goo virginity! The amount of times quark gets oomox on screen! Sisko and kassidy waking up together! Worf and Dax! Quark and his Klingon wife! Bashir and leeta! Kira and her various lovers! Dax is talking about it constantly! Quarks mom fucked the Nagus and brunt was in his closet! Sex is treated both as a serious thing and as just a thing you do and the topic is explored in so many interesting ways!
-great takes on masculinity and parenting as well! Sisko is such a good dad! Rom’s entire arc touched on this as well! Miles who is just such a wife guy! All these men who love their children, aren’t afraid to be emotional and caring and kind, especially with the contrast of misogynistic, overbearing, “manly” characters like quark and dukat being shown as undesirable!
And of course, there are plenty of storylines that hit on queer themes like found family, coming out as “different”, the intersection of gender and cultural norms,
So much queercoding:
-garashir is so intentional that Andrew Robinson (garaks actor) has, on multiple occasions, expressed that it should have been canon, discusses how he set out to flirt, their entire first interaction is about the gayest thing I’ve seen, they have regular lunch dates, get very anxious when the other one is gone. The way they look at each other like they’re gonna eat each other. It’s more canon than some of the canon relationships to me and is the closest two trek actors have gotten to spirk since spirk
-garaks storyline and character on its own is very gay. Props to Andrew Robinson for making the “ziyal likes garak” storyline so uncomfortable and for acting garak so gay we love him for it. He has said before that garaks sexuality is inclusive and you can read more about that in the book he wrote if you want!
-Kira nerys is a lesbian. (“The stones are straight, it’s me who’s-”) She dresses and acts like a lesbian. She eats every woman she sees with her eyes. Every one of her relationships with men is with a man who has power (eg the lesbian “he must therefore be attractive, right?) and ends with them dying or leaving. (“The prophets said we weren’t right for each other” lmao ok). Her last relationship was with odo, the literal gender fluid. That man is goo, that man is the last man you date before you finally admit you’re a lesbian “just to see”. PLUS her lesbian kiss in the mirrorverse I rest my case.
-odo was played as asexual for the first few seasons and Rene has said at events that he has always thought of him that way. Do I wish they continued with this? Yes.
-quark and Odo’s weird little thing. They hate each other. They love each other. They’re obsessed with each other. It’s great. Its definitely unhealthy and also pretty queer. One time they kissed for comedic effect on screen and it was a little bit too convincing.
-the O’Brien polycule. This series of episodes was great because it showed surrogacy as a valid thing to happen, and also because of that whole thing between Kira miles and keiko. What happened there? Who’s to say
-Kira and Dax, especially in the early seasons. Kira was truly following her with her eyes in every scene together it was great. I personally don’t see it but many many people do
-ezri my beloved she is a lesbian as well. Look at her. I personally have always been of the opinion that she’s non-binary. But also look at her, short hair, tense relationship with her family, drive towards found family and a queer community, mirrorverse lesbian kiss, yk
-also Julian bashir is trans coded. I don’t know enough about this to tell you but my transmasc friend said so so it must be true. They changed a lot with the genetic engineering who’s to say. Also the name change is right there
Quite frankly, the only character that isn’t presented as some sort of queer at one point or another is captain sisko! You could make an argument for every single other cast member for some or another type of queercoding which is wonderful!
So, yes, in many cases they weren’t allowed to say it outright, and they of course weren’t advertising queerness as a positive in the 90’s- but ds9 is full of both canon and implied queerness and touches on so much about gender and sexuality which was really boldly going back then! That’s why it is and will always be one of my favorite shows and my favorite trek!
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ichigokeks · 1 year
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"Thua really said "I respect your love!" and went on to disrespect the shit out of it."
As some Twitter users pointed out, Ayan hinted at some things about Thua to his mom when they were at the cafe at a time where Thua wasn't publicly out, especially to his parents. And you can see him panic briefly and brush it off/divert the subject. Especially when he was suffering inner turmoil in regards to his stepfather telling him to he more "manly". Obviously Ayan didn't know this, but still.
He may have indirectly/subconsciously learned that it's ok to out someone if it's for the "better good", as that was the example Ayan set for Thua.
It doesn't make it any better, of course, but remember that they're highschool students (17/18 yrs old) who typically don't think before they do shit and they're not the best at empathy.
It was, essentially, a tit-for-tat situation where I truly believe Thua wasn't doing it out of malice, but just that he may have learned- or interpreted (incorrectly)- that outing someone was fine if it's for a "good cause" or if you have "good intentions".
And I'm not defending Thua, but people shouldn't view the situation from their own adult, mature point of view and pass judgment from a mature perspective when the characters are not adult or mature. And this is not negating that what Thua did was shitty, but Ayan hinting/teasing at stuff to someone's parents wasn't good either... Ayan was doing it with good intentions, but so was Thua 😬
Hi, sorry for taking a bit longer to answer. It got busy and I wanted to answer properly. So this will be a long answer.
TLDR: I mostly agree with your points. Ayan crossed the line, too, yes. But it is in no way comparable to what Thua did. They are all flawed in a way but I think that's good. It makes them real and human. Still, we should discuss their flaws.
Full and detailed answer in the following. This is obviously my opinion and interpretation of things.
I don't want to come across as haughty or anything. I fully agree with you that one shouldn't forget that these characters are teenagers and are not mature yet, so they might do foolish things. But that doesn't mean that their actions cannot or shouldn't be judged. And at the end of the day, this is still fiction... Still, considering that the show is meant as social criticism and a paint a realistic picture of what it is like to be a queer person in Thailand, discussing the show and taking the plot serious, is very much justified.
Good intention often cause quite the harm, this goes for adults as well as for teenagers.
I rewatched the scene at the coffee shop just to be sure and Ayan doesn't hint at Thua being gay at all. He didn't out Thua nor did he say: Your son feels uncomfortable around his step-dad! And still I think Ayan crossed a line to meddle in Thua's family business. In that point, I agree with you. At least, Ayan knows this himself, he says it out loud and apologises for it.
However, I cannot quite see Thua's good intentions. He wanted everyone to stop lying? For what? He wanted the curse to stop? He continued it. His motivation is a mess.
I am a teacher so I work with teenagers and I see it up close how teenagers often do things without thinking it through. For many teenagers around that age things are mostly black and white/right or wrong and they often cannot see the consequences of their actions to a larger extent. This is a simple neurological and psychological fact about how the brain and thinking develops with age. It is entirely normal - as you also said. But especially because of that it is NECESSARY to teach and educate teenagers of where the line is and what consequences follow when they cross the line. And further, more often than not, certain actions or opinions are neither right or wrong. It is difficult to grasp that different opinions both have the right to co-exist and that some questions do not have a definite answer. There are many things that exist in a grey area.
Thua considered what Akk was doing as wrong and drew the conclusion that he should face punishment for that. Lying is wrong, covering up is wrong. A wrong must be put right, so he does that by exposing everything without considering that lying isn't always bad (it really isn't, if you are a Kant follower, we can only agree to disagree on that one). He doesn't consider WHY people acted the way they did. He doesn't consider that for a long time Akk did the curse because he believed he was doing the right thing as well!
He simply considers his definition and understanding of right and wrong as the correct one without having all the facts. This is immature and age-appropriate in a way. I can forgive that.
But outing Akk and Ayan was in no way necessary for Thua's goals. It was unnecessarily cruel and served no purpose at all. I do not get why Thua should have said that. That's why I was mad. A person who suffered under homophobic bullying exposed Akk and villainised him by adding that he was in a relationship with a guy.
Thua doesn't even consider anything he has done as crossing a line neither did he apologise. He is facing no consequences for his actions so far. We have seen Akk suffer TERRIBLY under what he has done. He feels the whole weight of the curse. Thua is completely fine after having outed his closest friends publically, exposed one of his friends who will most likely lose his scholarship because of it, which means effectively ruining his life. And he is fine? Don't get me wrong. Akk has to face consequences for what he has done. But the fact that he was pressured into it has to be considered...
The beauty of it all is that the characters in this series are flawed because they're human. They feel real this way. But all the more reason to address their flaws and discuss them.
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ofplanetsloved · 2 years
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mandatory lil 3.8 thoughts
whewwwww. we made it.
i went into the episode thinking. someone. someone is gonna die. one of the big ones. and about. two minutes before he did. i went, “i don’t think black noir is making it” and. fuck. is it good storytelling? i think maybe. Maybe. was i sad? absolutely i cried. bc while he was team homelander, he wanted revenge against the racist fuck who broke his face. and i wanted him to get that. the fight would have gone entirely differently if he had been there (and that’s definitely something i’m interesting in writing/plotting).
i was not expecting maeve to live. but ashley deleting the file was... really nice, actually. i did not expect any empathy from her, who left her assistant to die. to see empathy from her was shocking in a way that i’m really compelled.
as of right now, i don’t give a fuck about victoria neumann. i think it’s funny that jim beaver is playing robert singer again. and sure, i guess this sets up next season, but i care more about ryan.
ryan. hoooo. at first i thought him being there was really fucking dumb. and him being the reason that homelander walks away was kind of... anticlimactic? but this is only season three so . i didn’t think that butcher or homelander would die. i mean, fuck, they didn’t even kill soldier boy.
however. ryan at the end. that shit was compelling. that little smile. seeing how power can corrupt at such a young age.
the todd arc was really well done— like, it wasn’t subtle. he was clearly becoming a neonazi. they didn’t try to hide that. but that moment with his cheer... whoa.
maeve and hughie’s friendship is so much to me.
kimiko my fucking wife. listen to your 80s music and kick ass for comrade frenchie.
a-train and deep... i’m curious to see what’s next for them. cassandra clearly has her moment in the spotlight, but also... her name’s cassandra. i don’t imagine people are going to believe her, you know? or maybe i’m just a mythic bitch. and a-train... i’ve always liked a-train as a character. he does do what he thinks is the right thing. it just. it just doesn’t work.
okay. so. starlight is my wife. she’s perfect. she’s everything to me. we know this. i’m so happy she got her ‘i FUCKING told you so’ and her moment with maeve at the end made me cry but. to me, she’s the protagonist. her and hughie. the very first episode sets them up at the protagonists, to me, with butcher as thee antihero and homelander as the antagonist (and a-train and deep as secondary antagonists, one against hughie and one against starlight). and it felt full circle when she got to hit soldier boy. i wish it was more effective, but i was so stunned. she could FLY!!!
and, the hughie arc’s full circle moment!!! he could have taken the V and run in and tried to protect her, and save her, and he would have died and she would have been PISSED.
instead, he’s able to help her by being human. by being safe. by working with fucking electronics (AND HE WORKED AT THE ELECTRONICS STORE!!! IM INSANE!!) . he doesn’t save her. he helps her save herself.
i don’t think this is the end of soldier boy. they can easily bring him back if they want. here’s how gay sex jackles can still win.
oh. i will say. the maeve and sb falling moment looked like a shitty marvel moment.
who will be the new members of the seven. btw. cause they got three bitches to replace!!!
if there’s one thing kripke loves doing, its giving his characters daddy issues, baby brothers to protect, an insane need for revenge, and a year to live.
TLDR: I enjoyed the episode, i really think all these characters are so fleshed out, but i wish they didn’t simply set up black noir’s character with the intention of killing him. they only started exploring and revealing his character to us this season so we’d feel something at his death (like how we didn’t feel that much for translucent bc we didn’t know him, if that makes sense?). which is kind of bullshit. but i love starlight so fucking much i could cry.
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diamondcitydarlin · 2 years
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its a contentious topic but i have to ask do you think ofmd's example has changed or should change the expectations for rep in GO? do you think it might change anything for lokius going forward?
I think OFMD has changed the expectations for a lot of us, tbh, across any kind of media. Main romance even aside, it's significant that the character writing, storytelling utilizes a lot of the same tropes and tone that historically have only been seen in fanfic, like having characters be openly queer and live within the reality of that while not being solely defined by it. It's a piece written exclusively by and for us, it's a piece that prioritizes us and our perspectives before anything else.
But I don't think I can personally agree that Good Omens doesn't do that too, and while I think I can concede that maybe the queerness doesn't play as central a role to the story and character progression as it does in OFMD, it's still a big part of Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship and respective characters. Them being celestial beings that are unbound from human restriction/definitions allows for even more fluidity in their interpretations, to the point that no approach is wrong or contradictory to the canon. No, GO is not perfect, both the book and the show, and no one is obligated by the rules of being a queer person to connect with it or feel like it is any way representative of their own experiences.
But it doesn't change the fact that for many people it is. For me it's the ways in which my attachment to Crowley's character has helped me find comfort in my own genderfluidity (also the rep of this in the characters of Pollution and Beezlebub and likely others I'm not thinking of now), that which I struggled with my entire life. For others, it's the fact that Crowley and Az are functionally a couple who love each other esp by the end, and everyone knows this without a need for them to be physically intimate on screen. It's not avoiding male intimacy because ew yucky gross or to avoid alienating homophobic audiences, in fact I'd argue it's not avoiding it at all and we may indeed see more of it in season 2, it's depicting a form of queer intimacy that doesn't necessitate one approach or another to be 'legitimate' or obvious, and that is just as important in telling these stories.
There are many different ways to be queer, after all, and it's divisive to try to claim only one form of expression as the legitimate way to be gay. We want queer stories, right? Then we have to be inclusive and remember that not all queer stories are going to be OUR queer story and that's okay. That's important. For instance, you may not care about Crowley's genderfluidity one way or another, you might be able to just take or leave that. For me though? It is VERY important, just as it is to many others.
Listen I understand why people are tempted to put GO under a microscope now. I know full-well how many times we've had our stories exploited and dangled in front of us like a carrot with no real intention of actually representing us beyond what can bring in views and profits. That said though, it seems to me people are devoting a lot of their energies to coming after a creator working in good faith to make his story a queer friendly piece and listen to diverse voices (even if he doesn't always get it right) while there are countless cishet male creators, corporations, PR/marketing people out there shamelessly chumming the waters with bait and a lot of these people are still gulping it up without question. How does that make sense? Why are the expectations SO high for someone who I believe has shown is actually invested in attempting to tell these stories and yet still so fucking low for the people who are actually, intentionally queerbaiting? That's not to say Neil shouldn't ever get feedback or criticism on this, but I would love to see the torch and pitchfork mob maybe turn some of their ire on people in power that are intentionally working in bad faith, bc there is no shortage of them.
Which is actually a perfect segue into L*ki show, because man I could not have designed a better example of what I'm talking about with queerbaiting and the constantly moving goal posts and the rules for me and not for thee kinda thing going on here. L*ki show queerbaited in perhaps the most obvious and egregious ways to date; I don't care if you (general you, not you personally anon or you reading this lol) don't agree, because that is absolutely what happened and your opinion does not change the insidious reality. We were led to believe via intentional marketing campaigns this would be a piece that would explore both Loki's genderfluidity and bisexuality and they intentionally put enough content in the show in that vein so that was technically true; yet for some reason there are no fem presenting Loki variants outside of Sylvie and the very IDEA of one is unfathomable to the other variants. Despite the fact that absolutely no concrete time is spent on exploring the full extent of Loki's supposed bisexuality, we're supposed to be content with the fact that he's 'inexplicably' shafted on to a fem-presenting variant of himself because maybe it's queer (if indeed we think we have enough evidence to assume that Loki and Sylvie were established as queer characters, which I would argue they were not. A vague suggestion that they've both had two genders of people interested in them does not a queer confession make as much as we might want it to, and that is by design)
So, all of that is fine I guess but if Neil doesn't make Michael and David put their mouths together at some point and/or do a sex scene then we can just throw all of GO in the garbage I guess?
Make it make sense.
To answer the question, I've done a lot of ruminating and going back and forth on this and for now I'm not confident anything will change. Of course, that could be because even if they DO change and Loki and Mobius get a textual romance plot I'm not sure it would be as fulfilling at this point (at least for me) because I would know it was an insincere afterthought following a trend and not a genuine risk for the sake of telling a good story, as it would've been in season one. I mean, it'd still be fun because Tom and Owen would fucking kill it no matter what garbage content they were given to portray, but idk. I kinda prefer to leave this pairing with the fans who have always treated it with more respect, dignity and appreciation than the creators ever have.
idk, I guess what I'm saying is that I feel like there needs to be more consideration for nuance here. I know it's extra labor that no one should have to do, but I still think we benefit from looking into creators and teams behind the pieces of media we enjoy before setting up our expectations and levels of support. That is to say I think anyone should be able ship and enjoy combos of characters regardless of narrative intent, but I think we need to be honest about the intentions and priorities of the people in charge of writing those characters and stories and maybe be careful about lauding things as 'queer pieces' or potentially queer maybe at some point, that really aren't for all intents and purposes. Equally so, we need to recognize the creators that are making genuine efforts in good faith to tell these stories and not immediately circle the wagons and alienate them the moment they get something wrong. Is it not obvious how this would enable further capitalistic exploitation of queerness over genuine attempts to cater to it?
Anyway, it's a difficult but necessary conversation. We're not all going to agree on what the best queer rep looks like because that's going to be different for all of us and there should be pieces of media for each and everyone one of us, but for me a general rule of thumb in determining motive is how easily or not the show and characters fall into glorified heteronormativity. It happens in Loki when the farthest he's allowed to get from being masc is on a two sec shot of a file and literally nothing else allows us to believe or question he's anything but cishet male, when he's ultimately paired up with his presumably cis het female self despite the show vaguely flirting with his sexuality and establishing his first significant relationship in the plot with a man (and having him play footsie with said man under the table during a coffee date while they give each other meaningful looks and expose their vulnerabilities to each other). Now look at GO wherein characters are textually NB and use NB pronouns, wherein Az and Crowley are inseparable and emotionally intimate with each other and at no point is heteronormativity introduced into their dynamic to define for phobic audiences that they're definitely not gay though, don't worry, wherein Crowley is allowed to lean feminine in his dress and behaviors as an organic part of his character. I would argue even the het pairings in GO aren't entirely heteronormative either as both Shadwell and Newt grow past their own sort of rigid ideals of what it means to be a successful man/masculine as a result of learning from the women they love. I'm saying GO is not a heteronormative culture friendly show, and that's important.
And yeah also, there's literally another season with brand new content and stories about to come out and I think we owe it to ourselves, Neil, and GO as a whole to 'wait and see' what happens within this brand new material. Like Neil says, it may not be enough for everyone or what everyone is looking for in queer rep, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it ISN'T queer rep that is important to others. Like, it's absolutely possible to take the stance of 'well this isn't exactly what I'm looking for in a queer story but it definitely is a queer story that connects with people who experience queerness in a different way to me and that's ok because we're getting more diversified queer media in various shows and some of it is going to be for me and some of it isn't and that's ok'
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aikoiya · 2 years
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In the same vein as my 'Proper Characterization in Ships' post, as far as LGBT is concerned, I feel like I treat it similarly to my other preferences.
For instance, I'm not a fan of the color gray & don't think it's a good color, especially for things like walls or hair dye or such. Even still, just because I don't like it, it doesn't mean that when I walk into a room & see grey walls that I'm gonna pretend that those walls AREN'T grey because that'd be delusional.
Similarly, I might not agree with the LGBT lifestyle IRL, but I still acknowledge that they exist & refuse to try & take away their ability to choose what they want to do with their lives. I don't support anyone trying to push their views onto others. It's one thing to recommend things to someone & have a civilized debate about the merits of it, it's another thing entirely to harass & pressure them.
So, when I view a character, I will try to get a vibe off them & be like, "oh, I can see how people could think this chick is a lesbian" or "nah, dude, this guy has shown zero interest in other guys beyond friendship level; he's not gay as far as I can see."
Like, there has to be evidence for me to think a character is gay or trans or whatever, but if there is enough, then sure, I'm not gonna deny it!
However, because of this, I don't like it when other fans don't do the same because it feels like they just wanna be woke or are projecting their views or personal life experiences onto the characters & I think that's kinda dangerous.
Like, sure, in cases with the silent protagonist where there's not much characterization, then that's the perfect medium & you can go hog wild! That's what the silent protagonist is for: self insertion.
At the same time, in regards to the whole silent protagonist/self-insertion thing; don't tell other fans that they can't hc that a self-insert character can't be something.
Like with Frisk/Chara from Undertale. So many fans say that Frisk/Chara are non-binary & can only be non-binary because they use they/them pronouns, but didn't Toby specifically say that those pronouns were used so that the player can decide what they want them to be? I've seen a lot of fans absolutely ride a person's ass if they so much as insinuate that they consider them male or female. Stop that!! Frisk/Chara are self-insert characters, so if I think Frisk is female & that Chara is male, then that's what I think & there's nothing wrong with that because the creator said so!
Not only that, they will argue forever that Frisk can only be a child because of what Monster Kid said about stripes & the fact that Frisk is wearing stripes. But the thing is, that's a monster custom! In human customs, stripes mean nothing! Not to mention that it's such an arbitrary standard for gauging age! I get it for monsters because they are so ridiculously varied in shape & size & appearance. So, it makes somewhat sense for them, but humans don't have that problem! We can generally tell a person's age just by looking at them, no matter what they're wearing. Of course, there are some exceptions, but they are exceptions. You shouldn't treat everyone based on the exceptions to the rule!
At the same time, you should also take into account the environment, time period, technological advancements, creator's intent, & standard levels of bigotry within the world the character lives in.
For instance, before, I brought up how I don't believe Danny Phantom is trans, specifically, I don't think he's transmasc, & how Hartmen's words only cemented my beliefs.
Another example is Harry Potter. I honestly do not think that Harry is trans &, in fact, I think there's even more evidence of him not being trans than there is for Danny.
Let me explain. In the very first scene of the first movie, Mcgonagall says "And the boy?" regarding Harry. He was 1 year old! This makes it nearly impossible for him to be transmasc. The only way that he could possibly be transmasc would be if his parents had wanted a boy & instead of accepting that they had a daughter, decided to tell everyone that she was a boy, which is an utterly horrifying thing for parents to do to their child & should be illegal! I can only see him being transfem & even that I don’t see as being very likely!
Not to mention that, while the first instance of a binder was is 1920 & it's therefore possible to a certain degree; the Dursley's attitudes towards Harry & general bigotry, would make that practically impossible. Do you really think that they would support his transition, let alone spend actual money on a binder just so Harry could feel more comfortable in his own body?! They'd had him since he was 1 & even if they didn't change his diapers themselves, I imagine that anyone they hired to do so would've mentioned something. The Dursleys would know what his biological sex was & would've treated him as such. I doubt that he'd even have a concept of what trans is or even consider the idea that he may be something other than what he's always been treated as! It didn't even click inside his head that all the weird things that happened around him could've been magic until Hagrid told him directly that he was a wizard, where would he even get the idea that he could have gender dysphoria in that day & age?? It was the sort of thing you researched not heard of other than in the derogatory!
If Harry was trans, he'd HAVE to be transfem because it's, if not impossible, then at least very highly improbable for him to be transmasc given the evidence & the environment that he grew up in.
Then, even in fanfiction where he was trans, he'd have, logically, been famous in the wizarding world for an entire decade as being the gender he abandoned & considering the wizarding world's own unique brand of bigotry, do you really think that they'd embrace his decision?
So, no. I don't think J.K. Rowling was being a bigot when she said that Harry wasn't trans, because in the setting that she created for him, being transmasc was all but impossible. So, get off her ass & your head out of yours!
I'm just saying, if you're going to just arbitrarily make a character trans, even if it's a character that you created yourself, try to make it make sense as far as their environment is concerned!
Sure, in a modern American setting where everything has to be woke or it's broke, you could get away with it, but if not there, then depending on the place & time you DO decide to choose, the character could literally be slighted for execution!
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im-the-punk-who · 3 years
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When Hannah Gadsby said "I dont want my story to be defined by anger" and when she said "I am tired" and when she said "there is nothing stronger than a broken women who has rebuilt herself" and when she said "where are the quiet gays supposed to go?" and when she said "you learn from the part you focus on" and when she said "you internalize that hatred and you learn to hate yourself"
....I felt that.
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mishafletcher · 4 years
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Are you a Gold Star lesbian? (Just in case you don't know what it means, a Gold Star lesbian is a lesbian that has never had the sex with a guy and would never have any intentions of ever doing so)
So I got this ask a while ago, and I've been lowkey thinking about it ever since.
First: No. I am a queer, cranky dyke who is too old for this sort of bullshit gatekeeping. 
Second: What an unbelievable question to ask someone you don't even know! What an incomprehensibly rude thing to ask, as if you're somehow owed information about my sexual history. You're not! No one—and I can't reiterate this enough, but no one—owes you the details of their sex lives, of their trauma, or of anything about themselves that they don't feel like sharing with you.
The clickbait mills of the internet and the purity police of social media would like nothing more than to convince everyone that you owe these things to everyone. They would like you to believe that you have to prove that you're traumatized enough to identify with this character, that you can't sell this article about campus rape without relating it to your own sexual assault, that you can't talk about queer issues without offering up a comprehensive history of your own experiences, and none of those things are true. You owe people, and especially random strangers on the internet, nothing, least of all citations to somehow prove to them that you have the right to talk about your own life.
This makes some people uncomfortable, and to be clear, I think that that's good: people who feel entitled to demand this information should be uncomfortable. Refusing to justify yourself takes power away from people who would very much like to have it, people who would like to gatekeep and dictate who is permitted to speak about what topics or like what things. You don't have to justify yourself. You don't have to explain that you like this ship because this one character reminds you a bit of yourself because you were traumatized in a vaguely similar way and now— You don't have to justify your queerness by telling people about the best friend you had when you were twelve, and how you kissed, and she laughed and said it was good practice for when she would kiss boys and your stomach twisted and your mouth tasted like bile and she was the first and last girl you kissed, but— 
You don't owe anyone these pieces of yourself. They're yours, and you can share them or not, but if someone demands that you share, they're probably not someone you should trust.
Third: The idea of gold star lesbians is a profoundly bi- and trans- phobic idea, often reducing gender to genitals and the long, shared history of queer women of all identities to a stark, artificial divide where some identities are seen as purer or more valuable than others. This is bullshit on all counts.
There's a weird and largely artificial division between bisexuals and lesbians that seems to be intensifying on tumblr, and I have to say: I hate it. Bisexual women aren't failed lesbians. They're not somehow less good or less valid because they're attracted to [checks notes] people. Do you think that having sex with a man somehow changes them? What are you so worried about it for? I've checked, and having sex with a man does not, in fact, make your vagina grow teeth or tentacles. Does that make you feel better? Why is what other people are doing so threatening to you?
Discussions of gold star lesbians are often filled with tittering about hehe penises, which is unfortunate, since I know a fair few lesbians who have penises, and even more lesbians who've had sex with people, men and women alike, who have penises. I'm sorry to report that "I'm disgusted by a standard-issue human body part" is neither a personality nor anything to be proud of. I'm a dyke and I don't especially like men, but dicks are just dicks. You don't have to be interested in them, but a lot of people have them, and it doesn't make you less of a lesbian to have sex with someone who has a dick.
There's so much garbage happening in the world—maybe you haven't noticed, but things are kind of Not Great in a lot of places, and there's a whole pandemic thing that's been sort of a major buzzkill? How is this something that you're worried about? Make a tea, remind yourself that other people's genitalia and sexual history are none of your business, maybe go watch a video about a cute animal or something. 
Fourth: The idea of gold star lesbians is a shitty premise that argues that sexuality is better if it's always been clear-cut and straightforward—but it rarely is. We live in a very, very heterosexist culture. I didn’t have a word for lesbian until many years after I knew that I was one. How can you say that you are something when your mouth can’t even make the shape of it? The person you are at 24 is different to the person you are at 14, and 34, and 74. You change. You get braver. The world gets wider. You learn to see possibilities in the shadows you used to overlook. Of course people learn more about themselves as they age.
Also, many of us, especially those of us who grew up in smaller towns, or who are over the age of, say, 25, grew up in times and places where our sexuality was literally criminal.
Shortly after I graduated high school, a gay man in my state was sentenced to six months in jail. Why? Well, he’d hit on someone, and it was a misdemeanor to "solicit homosexual or lesbian activity", which included expressing romantic or sexual interest in someone who didn’t reciprocate. You might think, then, that I am in fact quite old, but you would be mistaken. The conviction was in 1999; it was overturned in 2002.
I grew up knowing this: the wrong thing said to the wrong person would be sufficient reason to charge me with a crime.
In the United States, the Defense of Marriage Act was passed in 1996, clarifying that according to the federal government, marriage could only ever be between one man and one woman. It also promised that even if a state were to legalize same-sex unions, other states wouldn't have to recognize them if they didn't want to. And wow, they super did not want to, because between 1998 and 2012, a whopping thirty states had approved some sort of amendment banning same-sex marriage.
Every queer person who's older than about 25 watched this, knowing that this was aimed at people like them. Knowing that these votes were cast by their friends and their families and their teachers and their employers. 
Some states were worse than others. Ohio passed their bill in 2004 with 62% approval. Mississippi passed theirs the same year with 86% approval. Imagine sitting in a classroom, or at work, or in a church, or at a family dinner, and knowing that statistically, at least two out of every three people in that room felt you shouldn't be allowed to marry someone you loved.
Matthew Shepard was tortured to death in October of 1998. For being gay, for (maybe) hitting on one of the men who had planned to merely rob him. Instead, he was tortured and left to die, tied to a barbed wire fence. His murderers were both sentenced to two consecutive life terms in prison. This was controversial, because a nonzero number of people felt that Shepard had brought it upon himself.
Many of us sat at dinner tables and listened to this discussion, one that told us, over and over, that we were fundamentally wrong, fundamentally undeserving of love or sympathy or of life itself.
This is a tiny, tiny sliver of history—a staggeringly incomplete overview of what happened in the US over about ten years. Even if this tiny sliver is all that there were, looking at this, how could you blame someone for wanting to try being not Like This? How can you fault someone who had sex, maybe even had a bunch of sex, hoping desperately that maybe they could be normal enough to be loved if they just tried harder? How can you say that someone who found themself an uninteresting but inoffensive boyfriend and went on dates and had sex and said that it was fine is somehow less valuable or less queer or less of a lesbian for doing so? For many people, even now, passing as straight, as problematic as that term is, is a survival skill. How dare you imply that the things that someone did to protect themself make them worth less? They survived, and that's worth literally everything.
Fifth, finally: What is a gold star, anyhow? You've capitalized it, like it's Weighty and Important, but it's not. Gold stars were what your most generous grade school teacher put on spelling tests that you did really well on. But ultimately, gold stars are just shiny scraps of paper. They don't have any inherent value: I can buy a thousand of them for five bucks and have them at my door tomorrow. They have only the meaning that we give them, only the importance that we give them. We’re not children desperately scrabbling for a teacher’s approval anymore, though. We understand that good and bad are more of a spectrum than a binary, and that a gold star is a simplification. We understand that no number of gold stars will make us feel like we’re special enough or good enough or important enough, or fix the broken places we can still feel inside ourselves. Only we can do that.
The stars are only shiny scraps of paper. They offer us nothing; we don’t need them. I hope that someday, you see that, too. 
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moiraineswife · 3 years
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Jasnah and Wit - Presentation Meta
Part 1 of the great saga of Witsnah “WELL ACTUALLY” metas I plan on doing bc y’all have just pushed me That Far. 
Well hello there. I’m GRUMPY. And what I do when I’m grumpy is I channel it into a little thing called spite meta. That’s what this is. It’s me angrily yelling for several thousand words about why this thing is a GOOD thing, actually. 
Today’s subject, the much controversial post Rhythm of War canon pairing that is: Wit/Jasnah. 
So let’s (angrily) explore why this is actually a positive thing for both characters, on a nuanced, meta, character analysis level. Because that’s the only level that I have. 
I admit, I was sceptical and uncertain. But when I actually sat and thought about this for a hot second...It started making a lot of sense to me. And then I thought about it for, like, a hot minute, and it made a LOT of sense to me. And now I’ve thought about it for a hot month, so come. Step into my thoughts, and I will explain my perspective on this all…
Firstly we’re going to talk about clothes. Yes, clothes. Clothes and  what they symbolise for this pair, together and individually. 
He was immaculate, as always, with his perfectly styled hair and sharp black suit. For all his talk of frivolity, he knew exactly how to present himself. It was something they’d bonded over. - RoW, 64
Wit and Jasnah have bonded over the idea of presentation and the effects it can create. Both of them have used this idea to great effect multiple times in the series. Wit displays himself as a more appropriate form of an Alethi highprince at war - a crisp, tailored, military suit in a colour that makes him instantly and easily identifiable in a crowd. It’s part of his subtle mockery of those around him - that the King’s Wit is a better presented highprince than the REAL highprinces. It also makes him recognisable, and it makes him seem professional and able to move easily in high society. 
Equally, we’ve seen him take the guise of a poor beggar so as to sneak into Kholinar and go unnoticed and dismissed when he sneaks into the palace to recover Design in Oathbringer. 
Jasnah, meanwhile, gives a memorable and impactful speech to Shallan at the beginning of Words of Radiance about the illusion of perception. About how by presenting herself as a princess, looking the way others expect, she is able to effectively use her authority. And would be able to similarly do so if she simply convinced people she was a princess, by manipulating their perception of her.
Both Jasnah and Wit understand this idea - of presenting yourself, not necessarily in the way you want to look, but in the way you want others to look at you. Creating for them the thing you want them to see, which enables you to better be that thing. 
It also runs deeper than that. They’re not just people who like to dress well. They understand that this has a power to it. They understand the effect it will have over others. And it’s this deeper thing that I believe they’ve bonded over. 
Because they don’t simply appear put together in their clothes; they appear put together in their everything. Wit and Jasnah are people who are consistently calm and composed regardless of the situation. They do it in very different ways. Jasnah  with calculating stoicism and intellectual calm. Wit with indifferent frivolity and nonchalant acceptance of what’s happening around him. 
The core effect is the same. When the walls are crumbling down, the armies are sweeping in, and everything’s on fucking fire, Wit and Jasnah are two people you expect to be able to look to for direction and a bit of sanity amidst the chaos. 
They’ve both cultivated personalities and personas that revolve around appearing and seeming in control and unperturbed whatever is happening. It’s like their whole Thing. 
So the presentation is not only about clothes and make up, it’s about who they are deep down as people. The fact that they’re always the strong ones. Always the ones in control. Always the ones who aren’t panicking despite the fact that everything’s on fucking fire. 
They’re  people that others EXPECT to behave a certain way. There’s a predictability to them. A dependability. In Wit’s case, it’s that you can rely on him to be esoteric, confusing, and unpredictable, but still. 
There’s a pressure in that. There’s a pressure in always being THAT put together. In always being THAT on top of things. In always being THAT person who can never break down screaming when things go wrong because that’s not who they are and not what people expect. They have to be more than that. They have to be BETTER than that. 
They’re also people that other characters tend to other/deify. Shallan remarks several times about Jasnah being inhuman/beyond ordinary people, and even goes so far as to compare her to the divine, despite her being a heretic. 
Wit, meanwhile, gets asked if he’s a Herald, has that odd air of always knowing things that he shouldn’t, and being in places he shouldn’t at the right times. 
They’re both ‘positively’ outcast. And I don’t mean that in an overly posh English way and being positively outcast, darling. What I mean is that, instead of being shunted outside of the circle of normality, they’re both placed on pedestals above it. Which is a different sort of outcast, but comes with its own package of problems. 
And this brings us to: vulnerability. Because they’ve bonded over this presentation thing, but they’ve ALSO bonded over the fact that they’ve found someone they don’t have to do that around all the time. Someone they can let their guard down with and just be themselves. Someone they don’t have to present and perform for. Someone they can just be HUMAN with. 
So we’re going to look more closely at the clothing aspect of this. Because there’s symbolism here, and it deeply interests me. With a focus on Jasnah, because Wit’s a mystery by design, and Jasnah’s got some more intentional stuff going on here I feel, re narrative symbolism. 
So from the moment we’re introduced to her, Jasnah always looks immaculate. She always looks perfectly put together. Shallan remarks multiple times on her havah, on her make up, on the intricate and perfectly done braids of her hair. Which is a little bit gay on Shallan’s part (which is valid) but it’s also significant, symbolically. 
I talked already about Jasnah’s idea of ‘power is an illusion of perception’, but I feel it’s worth coming back to. Both because of how much it shapes Shallan, but also how much it shapes Jasnah, and informs what we know about her. 
Jasnah is ALWAYS put together. She is ALWAYS perfectly made up, the absolute ideal of the perfect Alethi princess. Even in scenes of distress or ‘downtime’ scenes - such as waiting for Shallan in the hospital, or visiting her after her betrayal, or the relatively more relaxed setting being on board the Wind’s Pleasure. The text makes a point to note that Jasnah is perfectly done up and presenting exactly as she wishes. 
The times we see slips in that are DEEPLY interesting to me. 
The first one I want to look at, briefly, is That Controversial Scene in the way of kings, where Jasnah uses Soulcasting to kill the men who attacked her and Shallan in the alley. 
Just prior to this we see her bathing, where Shallan still remarks on how composed Jasnah is. This is also part of her presentation. She’s entirely naked, but that illusion is still up. She’s still more in control than other people are fully clothed. 
What I find interesting is the specific note that Jasnah does not take the time to have her hair braided before she sets out with Shallan. It’s mentioned as being unbound a few times. 
Symbolically, I like this, because I feel like it speaks to a slight loosening of her usual control. There’s something about that scenario that sets Jasnah on edge. There’s something about it that makes her feel. 
Besides, men like those…” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.
What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it?
Shallan is unnerved because Jasnah seems calm. But I get the sense, from this line, and from the intense repetition of how unnaturally composed Jasnah appears, that her composure is a front. And that if we had her perspective on this scene, it would look very different from how Shallan imagines it. 
There’s something driving her here. Something beyond the logic she explains to Shallan, about making the city safer, about the guards not doing anything, about how innocent women will not be able to protect themselves from this, and how she wanted those men gone. All of which I believe is true, but that line from Shallan, and the way in which Jasnah goes about this...It feels personal. There’s something else going on behind the scenes that we don’t know or understand.
Regardless. This is the first time we see Jasnah step out of the cultured, reserved, stoic scholar. She’s something other than an ideal Alethi princess and studious mentor in this scene. And the detail of her hair being unbound, contained, wild, for the first time since we’ve met her feels..Significant. It’s an important detail to linger on, I think. 
Which brings us to the next exception to Jasnah’s exceptional presentation rule: her murder! 
Even in the scene before where we see Jasnah, arguably, the most vulnerable that we’ve seen her, in the cabin when Shallan confronts her about her fear of the upcoming apocalypse. It’s only a moment. Only a moment of genuine emotion that Shallan manages to glimpse before the mask comes back. 
This was not the Jasnah that Shallan was accustomed to seeing. The confidence had been overwhelmed by exhaustion, the poise replaced by worry. Jasnah started to write something, but stopped after just a few words. She set down the pen, closing her eyes and massaging her temples. A few dizzy-looking spren, like jets of dust rising into the air, appeared around Jasnah’s head. Exhaustionspren.
Shallan pulled back, suddenly feeling as if she’d intruded upon an intimate moment. Jasnah with her defenses down. Shallan began to creep away, but a voice from the floor suddenly said, “Truth!”
Startled, Jasnah looked up, eyes finding Shallan—who, of course, blushed furiously.
Jasnah turned her eyes down toward Pattern on the floor, then reset her mask, sitting up with proper posture. “Yes, child?”
The text notes in this segment that Jasnah’s poise and presentation is a mask, but it also describes it as her ‘defenses’. This is her armour. It stops people looking too close. It stops them reading her emotion, her weaknesses. This is also one of very few times we see Jasnah attracting spren in the series. 
However, even in this scene, clearly exhausted, overworked, and overwhelmed, Jasnah remains perfectly put together. All of her armour, her immaculate  havah, her make-up, her braids, are all in place. Even in this moment. 
Which makes a stark contrast to the next scene we find her in where she’s dressed only in a “thin nightgown”, and is lying on the floor with a sword in her chest. The vulnerability of unexpected assassination. 
When next we see Jasnah, in the epilogue, is when she’s freshly spat out of Shadesmar after an apparently harrowing ordeal. 
Her clothing was ragged, her hair formed into a single utilitarian braid, her face lashed with burns. She’d once worn a fine dress, but that was tattered. She’d hemmed it at the knees and had sewn herself a glove out of something improvised. Curiously, she wore a kind of leather bandolier and a backpack. He doubted she’d had either one when her journey had begun.
Even in another plane, apparently being hounded and in fear of her life, she’s managed to acquire some appropriate clothing, a glove, and a damn bandolier. Because of course she has. Perception. Iconic. 
After that we don’t see her out of anything beyond her famous havah-braids-make up combo. Even when she’s with her family, and Navani remarks in her setting down the mask of the queen, she remains masked. There are still defences up. She never fully lets her family in on her plans, or her thoughts and fears. 
No, the next time we see her symbolically, and emotionally, vulnerable: is with Wit. Perhaps for the first time, fully, without ANY of her usual masks and pretences, and under her own steam and of her own volition. 
Locked away in a central room on the second level—sharing no walls with the outside, alone save for Wit’s company—she could finally let herself relax.
She DELIBERATELY picks a house with a second floor, and an interior  room with no outside walls, with multiple fabrial traps to warn of assassins or intruders. But she manages to relax in  Wit’s company. There’s a trust there. An understanding. A much needed vulnerability. 
Clothing wise, in this scene Jasnah is dressed only in a nightgown and a dressing gown, and is carefully noted to have her safehand uncovered. Jasnah isn’t Vorin, strictly speaking, but she’s still been raised her entire life in a society that views safehands as something inherently sexual/to be hidden. So much so that she takes the time and care to sew herself a safehand glove while in Shadesmar. So all of this is a fairly Big Deal. It’s a Big Deal for anyone. For Jasnah? More miraculous than Kaladin giggling. 
Jasnah Kholin is not vulnerable. Jasnah Kholin is never unguarded. Jasnah Kholin never willingly lets her guard down. Jasnah Kholin is absolutely as paranoid as Elhokar, if not more so. 
She’s made herself a BUNKER at this point. She’s in an interior room, surrounded by traps, there’s spheres sewn into her dressing gown, and she has a wholeass BOAT waiting for her in Shadesmar JUST IN CASE someone manages to get through: guards, an entire BUILDING, multiple rigged traps, then her, with her plate, her blade, her Soulcasting ability, and all of her wit and skill, to somehow manage to wound her badly enough that she has to retreat to Shadesmar. 
This woman does not do trust. She does not do vulnerability. To the point that it is absolutely 1000000% a fault. This IS Jasnah’s greatest flaw. Her isolation. Her mistrust. Her paranoia. 
Anyone that comes into her life she’s suspicious of. She blithely warns Shallan about Kabsal stating he’s only using her to get close to Jasnah to steal from her/kill her. 
We dismiss this, and look at it as brilliance/Jasnah knowing all, because she’s right. But it’s flawed brilliance. Because it’s the ‘broken clock’ fallacy, you know? If you suspect EVERYONE around you of being an assassin...Well, some of them will be. 
Jasnah’s paranoia is another meta, however. But the point here is that: Jasnah doesn’t do anything by halves. She has an ideal for how she wants to live her life and she COMMITS to it. And part of that is her presentation, and the perception she projects, to an unhealthy degree, even around trusted family. 
So the fact she has found someone she can relax all of her INCREDIBLY strict and overzealous masking and enforced personal presentation? Is both very significant in terms of her relationship with Wit, but also herSELF? 
Because Jasnah NEEDS this. She needs it like Kaladin needs therapy yesterday. 
Jasnah is a “strong independent woman” but if you double down on that idea, and follow it up with “Jasnah is a strong independent woman who doesn’t need a man/anyone” then you are absolutely 1000% missing the whole entire point of her character. 
All the Stormlight characters are deconstructions of classical fantasy tropes, to varying extents. 
Jasnah is the ‘strong independent woman’ trope except asking what if you ACTUALLY apply that to an actual human person? What would that do to them? How would that hurt them? And what it does is everything Jasnah is.
Which has been done so MASTERFULLY because we look at all of these flaws, and these objectively negative things that she does to cope with having this label slapped onto her, and we golf clap quietly in a corner and go ‘wow that’s so badass, that’s so cool, let’s totally romantacise all of these actually deeply worrying coping mechanisms and not look at them at all until Brandon smashes us in the face with them like a baseball bat with the nails of Jasnah’s trauma pounded into it’. 
Okay maybe that was SLIGHTLY dramatic. But my point is: Jasnah’s apparent omniscience can also be looked at as extreme paranoia and mistrust. 
Her independence and ability to ‘get shit done’ on her own, to the point she doesn’t tell another living soul about the LITERAL APOCALYPSE for more than HALF A DECADE is actually self-inflicted dangerous isolation. 
Her constantly being poised, and on her game, and never displaying any emotion is actually extreme repression, to the point her own MOTHER describes her as ‘having the empathy of a corpse’. 
Her consistent othering by all of the other characters, from her ward to her mother, deifying her, and othering her, and considering her immortal is actually putting her on a pedestal and cramming an INCREDIBLE amount of pressure to reach an impossible, unattainable, and inhuman level of perfection that becomes so normalised and commonplace that her return from the dead is just like ‘well yeah that’s just Jasnah’. 
And all of these things are INCREDIBLY unhealthy!!! They’re not something any real person should have to do just to exist. Especially not in the middle of an apocalypse. When her father was killed in front of her. And then her brother was murdered. And the apocalypse she tried to warn everyone about is happening. And she’s the most experienced Radiant. And she’s also suddenly a queen of her kingdom. Which has been taken over by the enemy btw. And they’re in the middle of a war. And people are dying. And she’s responsible for those people dying. But also some of her highprinces are treacherous bastards. And oh look here’s a couple of slightly mad Heralds she’s taken charge of and- OH MY GOD PLEASE LET HER NAP!? 
Again. Slight hyperbole on my end but I feel like I’m #Justified. The point is, her suddenly, after FOUR books, having a single person that she can confide in, and be vulnerable with, and admit she’s afraid, and uncertain, and doesn’t know what she’s doing, and isn’t sure she can actually do this, is not ~anti-feminist~ and it’s not “out of character” and it’s not damaging her ideal it’s actually deeply positive, and healthy, and a symptom of Character Growth. 
Jasnah’s is choosing Wit. With her eyes wide open. And she has some reservations about things, because she’s JASNAH, of course she does. But she listens to him. She confides in him. She lets him see HER. She lets him help HER. She admits that she needs that help. She actually says to him, out loud, with full human words, to his face, right in front of him, that she’s frightened. SHE ADMITS THIS!!! Jasnah’s having all this stealth background character development that y’all are sleeping on but I am personally deeply hype about. 
And it’s because Wit UNDERSTANDS her. And she understands him. And this is really the crux and core of this whole relationship for me, you know? This whole idea around them always being The Strong One. and finally FINALLY (for him, too) having someone that they don’t have to be strong for. Or regal. Or composed. Or poised. Or in control. Or even knowing what the fuck they’re doing. 
She can just...Be. She can ask questions. And show uncertainty. And admit to fear. And to doubt, of herself, of the other Radiants, of humanity in general. And have someone to look to, when everyone is ALWAYS looking at her. 
It’s the beginning of an actual support system. Because she needs this SO badly. Because she has her family but she also...Doesn’t have her family? She looks after them. She protects them. From assassins, and then from what was happening in the world/her role in it. Because there’s that line in Oathbringer that she has, about people loving her but still hurting her. 
Navani mentions that after she hit adolescence (and after her parents locked her in a dark room and let her scream herself hoarse because they called her mad, lol) she withdrew. And she no longer asked questions. And she no longer wanted a mother, or a support figure, or someone to take care of her. She rejected all notions of that. Because there was something broken there. That trust was gone. And Jasnah will set aside the crown, and the mask of the queen around her family, but she is only fully vulnerable, and fully HERSELF with Wit. 
And I cannot understate (i feel like I’m doing a Good Job of not understating this here people) how absolutely fucking ESSENTIAL that is. 
Jasnah is NOT a machine. She is not a divine being beyond trauma and pain. She is a human being who has suffered, and who has responses to this. 
Jasnah accepting Wit’s support and companionship is as big a step in processing and healing from her trauma as Kaladin accepting he can’t protect everyone and does not deserve to always carry that guilt. 
I don’t care if you don’t like the ship. I don’t care if you think it was rushed (there was...a year long time skip. Things did not remain in stasis. Things changed. This is an interesting narrative device bringing us into them and letting us extrapolate backwards). I don’t care if you hate the bones of Hoid and never want to see him on screen: I DON’T CARE. 
If you have any respect and regard for Jasnah as a character I need you to acknowledge that this relationship is a positive and healthy thing for her. I need you to see that it’s a step forwards. I need you to see that, from a purely narrative standpoint: this is a thing that should be celebrated for her. 
In terms of Wit, too, this is a good thing. I am not about one-sided relationships where only one person is getting something out of it. Even when that one person is the light of my life Jasnah Kholin who deserves all the things ever. 
For all his talk of frivolity, he knew exactly how to present himself. It was something they’d bonded over.
Coming back to this RoW quote let me make things as abundantly clear as possible re why I’ve bonded over this ship: They’re kindred spirits. They understand each other. In a way that no-one else has understood them for Jasnah possibly ever, for Wit in a very very very very very very very very very long time. 
They’re both brilliant. They’re both intellectually at the pinnacle of humanity. They both know that. They’re also both damaged. They both  cover up that damage with a carefully crafted presentation. Jasnah’s is regal composure and Wit’s flamboyant nonchalance, but it’s a mask in both cases. 
They understand each other. And they understand the need to have what they’ve found in one another: someone they don’t have to be that way around. Someone they can just be with. Someone who understands why they have to be that way with everyone else; but can give them the freedom to be themselves. 
Such parallel. Much power. Very choice. 
I was gonna talk about Other Stuff in this meta but lol. 4k words of clothes screaming later and I feel like maybe this should be part 1 of an ongoing saga. Ahem. 
The take away from this is: I totally understand why Brandon put these two characters together. For the amount of characters he has, he actually has relatively few romantic relationships. None of them are done on a whim, and they’re always healthy, mutual, and positive for both characters. They make sense, in short. 
And these two as a pairing makes sense. On more than a “”””business transaction””””” level of them wanting and getting information out of one another. It makes sense even if there was no Desolation, and no threat to the world, and they were two randomers who met in a tavern and connected. 
There’s a personal connection there. There’s an intimacy, and an understanding, and a sense of looking into another person’s eyes and saying ‘yes. You know. You feel it too’. They go through life in much the same way - standing out, never quite fitting, never finding anyone on their level that can relate to them or compete with them or challenge them. 
They have someone who can fulfil them. Someone who can actually meet and exceed their abilities for once. But equally someone who can ground them, and meet them at their lowest point, and allow and even encourage that vulnerability. 
TL;DR: this relationship is positive for both characters, and healthy, and important for both and this is a hill I WILL fucking die upon. Just watch me. 
More metas to follow. Bc I have more to say. Not as long as this one, in all likelihood, bc I feel like this is the Lynchpin argument for this pair. But still. More to say.
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firebird-legacy · 2 years
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You know I have to: Hunter
*steepling my fingers as i spin around in my chair like a cartoon villain* i’ve been expecting you. (hiiiiii <3)
Ask Game
Favorite thing about them:
Among the many, many things I find awesome about Hunter, one thing that’s always stuck out to me is the passionate streak constantly present in his character. Ironically, I’d argue he’s one of the most human-like characters in the agent story—unlike your colleagues in Intelligence, who hold emotion at arms length and behave as machines, or even some of your companions, a few of which choose to live life without a care or concern for others (stares at Kaliyo), Hunter is extremely invested in his cause, the state of the galaxy, and in the agent. And in the end, his genuine interest in the agent (regardless of nature) is the catalyst for the downfall of the Cabal.
Least favorite thing about them:
As for a least favorite… tbh there’s no singular thing I could think of. Even his reprehensible actions and (at times) downright cruelty play very important parts in developing his character. I suppose I very much dislike some of the interpretations of him I’ve seen, though this just boils down to differing opinions. OH—the stupid “identity reveal” at the end of the story. It sucks. It was done so badly. (He’s… he’s trans, guys. That’s all there is to it.)
Favorite line: (I have several. I am indecisive)
“I tried to behave for the SIS—but for you and me? Let’s be bad.”
(Agent: “You’re not just playing. You’re really worried about me.”) “Who else can I whisper sweet things to? Do you know what it’s like to have no identity? No one in the galaxy who can control you? It’s terrifying and wonderful. If you live to see Imperial Intelligence die… that’s me giving you a taste of freedom.”
“No way out anymore. I dreamed about this. You and me—tearing each other apart!”
“Goodbye, love. Don’t ever let them stop you.”
BrOTP:
Not exactly a brOTP, but I did find his interactions with the SIS team to be interesting, particularly with Ardun Kothe. Kothe said he thought Hunter was a good man. I wonder if Hunter thought well of him.
OTP:
Merrow. Or Merrow and Theron. I will not explain myself (actually if given the slightest reason I WILL because I never shut up).
NOTP:
… Women. Your honor that is a gay man
Random headcanon:
I’ve always had this headcanon that he’s good at cooking.
Unpopular opinion:
Strictly speaking, he’s not exactly a terrible person, or at least might not have been on his own. The Star Cabal made him what he is. Where does more blame lie—the morally corrupt cult, or the child who was raised to know nothing else?
Song I associate with them:
I was able to narrow down a much larger playlist to… still a whole five songs. HELP
Curses - The Crane Wives
Ashes, ashes, dust to dust | The devil's after both of us | Lay my curses out to rest | Make a mercy out of me
Danger To Myself - The Unlikely Candidates
'Cause I was founded | In a bed of liars | Walking the streets someone before me set on fire | And after all this | This love I borrowed | I'm waiting on the day you don't want me tomorrow
Feed The Machine - Poor Man’s Poison
I said, "Hey (hey), you (you), feed the machine | Bring them all back down to their knees | There's no time to waste | Remind the slaves | They ain't gonna make it out alive today"
Liar - The Arcadian Wild
I am the host of this hostility | I’m the master magician that makes you believe | I’m real, I’m not fake, but in reality | I’m a lying man | My life’s become this grand game of deception | My mind’s ignored all my heart’s good intentions | We all feel this tension | We all have our own illusions
This Is Love - Air Traffic Controller
You're no good, you're no good | You could kill me and you should | I'm an idiot for thinking | This was anything but blood | On the wall, on the couch | On the corner of my mouth | You must like being the victim | You've done nothing to get out
Favorite picture of them:
I… have a love hate relationship with swtor models. I actually don’t love how Hunter looks in game. I like how he looks in my brain. HOWEVER this here is one of my FAVORITE pieces of fanart, the colors and lighting and shapes are soo so fun and I am obsessed with the dynamic posing of the third photo!!
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tomatograter · 3 years
Note
Do you think Dirk saying that he doesn't like to label himself as gay means he has internalized homophobia? Or does he really just don't like to put labels on himself? I've seen ppl saying it's homophobia but there's ppl in real life that don't feel comfortable with labels so I'm a bit confused honestly, cus we are talking about Dirk and he's... Dirk after all
Easy answer: Dirk is Gay.
Prolonged answer: I think it's kinda weird how some fandom discussion around "Dirk dodging the label in One pesterlog" has largely spiraled way outside of its original context to be talked about in a vacuum, especially when that context is crucial to understanding what is actually being said, AKA — it belongs to a deeply awkward conversation between Dirk and Roxy. One of Many they are implied to have had about the subject of Roxy's sustained, unwelcome, and oft drunken advances towards Dirk (& his splinters).
I'm going to reproduce it plus another bit of text down below, for the sake of comparison.
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(To prevent the trickster text from looking like absolute shit, I have altered the background. Read the original here, if you're nasty: https://www.homestuck.com/story/5754 )
Now that we've been reacquainted with how and where that sentiment is expressed, let's try to break down what Dirk is doing here.
He is not receptive to Roxy's early advances, and spends most of the 'intro' for this conversation (not pictured) ignoring when Roxy flirts with him, until she gets upset at how 'boring' he is being right now.
Dirk is the one compelled to apologize.
He proceeds to shut the scenario down as an unwanted probability, eliciting further guilt-babbling from Roxy over how Dirk never wants to play along with the perfect traditional family fantasy, until she finally blows up and says it's because he's gay.
"I mean, yeah, that's what I thought."
Dirk, rather than saying I Am Not Gay, since he looooooves changing a conversational subject, claims that "Gay" is not entirely historically appropriate for this situation, given the non-negligible passage of time and the wildly dystopic circumstances* they find themselves in.
Dirk reassures Roxy he does still care about her.
Dirk is absolutely terrified of a similarly inclined (and intoxicated) Roxy up close. This is the most exclamations he's ever used.
Now, *These circumstances? The loss of 99% of the human race, including their society, customs, culture, and prejudices. (ALLEGEDLY.) It's important to remember that from Dirk and Roxy's side of the timetable, troll culture has been pushed as "the norm" for actual fucking centuries. HIC tried to recreate the caste system by artificially coloring human blood, leading to the death of billions. Faygo came out of the water tap, not water. Troll slang was incorporated into the English language. Humans ceased to organically reproduce. They were actively Discouraged from reproducing, since that's not something HIC could have total genetic control over; rendering traditional marriage and the concept of the nuclear family pointless.
You could also argue that same-gender relationships are not uncommon in Alternia, making "gay" altogether unnecessary by proxy, and that's true! But my point is this one: any union (or at least our society's holy concept of it) between straightie humans would be by definition undesirable under HIC's rule, too. She is the church, the president and the governing body. The population is only as good as they are assets for her to do whatever she wants with, including mass murder.
But wait! While that tracks… Roxy clearly still holds onto very 'conservative' definitions of romance for most of Homestuck. We see this multiple times. Dirk, as proved in conversations with Jake, uses 'gay' as an ironic pejorative. Suddenly it's not Historically Inaccurate anymore, Jake's interests are just gay.
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Does this mean the context above is basically worthless, since they don't seem to have internalized it? No.
What must be kept in mind is this: Dirk and Roxy's only "active" link to de facto humanity is our society as it was in the early 2010's. Those glimpses they get by talking with jane and jake. They have all that dystopic context, yes, but the reality that seems the most "unfucked" to them for a grand majority of their lives are the halcyon years before the Condesce's rise to power: back when weed was illegal, BlogSpot was popular, movies sucked, MTV was still a hip channel, and gay generally meant something real bad. The wave of homophobia as a punchline or fear mongering tactic was at THE HEIGHTS. Marriage equality was a hot debate topic. Those were the dayz.
Dirk is keenly aware of the taboo implication the word "Gay" as a self-denomination carries. He's no dummy. But he's rarely direct with his intentions either. He's slippery as a bar of soap. (He's never "straight about his feelings", if you prefer.) And for a guy that cares so much about his reputation and maintaining a curated sense of utter coolness, he wants to avoid outing himself as any sort of weirdo no matter the cost.
But that's not all. I think the gravity of just how much Dirk believes he *owes* Roxy simply for existing as the last human in the same timeframe as her is a severely underplayed aspect of Dirk's core character, together with how much he tries to avoid her sexual advances only to end up feeling like absolute shit over it, because — if they truly are the last people on god's blighted earth, isn't he being "selfish" and "irrational" about not feeling shit for Roxy, in the grand scale of things? Is Roxy not his only friend in tangible reality, even if he avoids the mere suggestion of visiting her? Even if she gets black-out drunk and tries to push him into indulging her, regardless of how many times he's already said no?
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(Spend enough time here and you realize how it directly mirrors the jane/jake experience.)
Dirk cares a lot about each and every one of his friends.
He pointedly adapts his speech based on whichever one of them he's talking to in an effort to express that investment. May it be reassuring Jane, fooling around with Jake, or trying to prevent Roxy from falling into a total catatonic doom-spiral; he avoids telling them anything that would be too crushing to hear. That's not what he's trying to do here. Not to say that he isn't bitchy sometimes, but that’s far from the central thing he does. The Epilogues have retroactively led people to believe that Dirk abhors and despises every single person he's ever been close to before (god forbid) LIKING them, and I think buying too much into that assumption ignores the foundations of his canon text, as well as the central motivation behind 99% of his actions in the story. This is the guy that grew up on Friendship Is Magic, has a picture of rainbow dash shamefully glued to one wall and a rainbow poster of Jake's symbol stapled to another, and everything he does is a little cringe attempt to demonstrate his worth by showing how much he cares about people, even when he's punching his actual feelings down instead of up and saying them.
Which brings us back to the load-bearing part of this question: Admitting to Roxy that there is absolutely no fucking way he will ever agree to having her babbys because he is gay is precisely the opposite of what Dirk wants to say, if his intention isn't pulverizing her. So he doesn't. And his worry on this regard is such that it prevents Dirk from even telling Roxy that he does love her, in the platonic sense, as a friend and hell-earth survivor, because he knows that specificity is what that would disappoint her greatly. (He only ever confesses this to Jane, on the death slabs.)
But also I think this is a really funny visual of Dirk's relationship with the word gay, to put statements into perspective:
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supersquiddy · 3 years
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but did the movie basically say Kaworu’s fixation on Shinji was “wrong” and then have Shinji get with Mari and Kaworu get with Rei at the end? I don’t get why they put so many romantic connotations in kawoshin just to say homo bad, het good.
Hi! For me personally, I saw things a bit different. Yes, Kaworu did say he misunderstood Shinji's happiness. Yes, Kaji said that it was Kaworu's happiness Kaworu wanted. But he also said that Kaworu wanted Shinji's happiness to make himself happy. I don't think this is necessarily a condemnation of Kaworu's actions. It seems like if Shinji was happy, he was happy, he just had to make Shinji happy. But he didn't know how. He assumed what Shinji needed to be happy. And yes, it is wrong to assume what someone needs, but Kaworu really doesn't know what else to do. From my understanding, in 3.33, Kaworu's understanding of what Shinji needed to be happy was that Shinji needed to pilot again. They needed the spears to reverse the damage Shinji did to the world. However, things didn't go as planned. It was actually a trap. Kaworu thought Shinji's happiness would be found in an Eva again but he was wrong. That's why in 3+1, Kaworu apologizes to Shinji about misunderstanding his happiness when Evas were brought up.
And it's a lot like real life, some people want to help another person but they don't ask the person what they really need. They just do what they think is right for the person. They are wrong but they aren't bad people (usually) for it.
Personal example: I have a friend who I love to bits. He's pretty much the Shinji to my Kaworu (platonically.) There have be plenty of times when I felt so similar to him. (The "I'm you. I'm just like you." line from Kaworu hit me so hard cause I thought about how I felt about my friend.) I'm always trying to help him, trying my best to help him be happy because that makes me happy to. Especially since I feel so similar to him, it's like I'm giving myself the help I never got. But oftentimes, I project my own ideas of what it means to be happy on him instead of concidering what he wants. It isn't out of malicious intent, it's just comes from the strong desire to help him. But it isn't right. So Kaworu's scene hit home to me and I got it cause I experienced it in a way.
I personally don't think that since the movie said he misunderstood what Shinji wanted, doesn't necessarily mean he was a bad person. I think the movie was just trying to flaw him like all the other characters since Kaworu is, compared to the main cast, pretty flawless. However I wish they did a better job since I've seen many people disappointed or confused about this choice. I wasn't bothered by it at all because I related to it. Hopefully my rambles make sense to you!
Now to address the other part of your ask! What was that ending? To keep it short, I believe that these "pairings" aren't set in stone. Mari and Shinji did flirt with each other but does that 100% mean they are dating? Not exactly. Rei and Kaworu were seen standing and talking next to each other, does that mean they are dating? Not exactly. One thing I've noticed that is sometimes lost in online discussion is interpretation. Not everything we watch has a set meaning. You and I can watch the same thing and have wildly different takes from it, and that's perfectly fine. Everyone won't always agree what they feel or think a piece of media has to say. As far as I know, Anno did not come out and confirm it himself that Shinji and Mari are dating and that Kaworu and Rei are dating. So it's all up to how you interpret their relationship. Some might see it as purely romantic, some might see it as purely platonic, they are both interpretations that can work. I think it's interesting at least that Shinji and Mari are shown on one side of the track. While Askua, Kaworu, and Rei are shown on the other. They are all, I asume, dead. But Mari was able to retrieve Shinji. So it's the classic one side has the living, the other side of the tracks have the dead visualization. I have nowhere to go with that but I just wanted to point it out.
I find it also interesting that they showed Kaworu and Rei next to each other. This movie compared Kaworu to Gendo. Kaworu is determined to make Shinji happy just as much as Gendo is determined to see Yui again, and they both fail to make things go as planned. So very interesting things can be taken from seeing Kaworu and Rei together. Since they are representations of Shinji's parents, they could be dating. (I don't believe that but I'm trying to show that things can be interpreted in different ways.) Or, if you want to go the more "deep route", they are important halves to Shinji's whole. Kind of like you are half one of your parents and half the other. (Very lose explainion of genetics but you see what I'm saying???) I'm not saying that they literally ARE his parents, but are halves of Shinji similar to how one is "half" their parents. Think about in EOE. First when Kaworu was another part of giant Rei. And then that part where Rei and Kaworu were with Shinji, helping him decide between humanity and Instrumentality. Shinji asks "what are the two of you within my heart?" Rei responds that "We are the hope that people will one day be able to understand each other." And Kaworu says "We are the words, "I love you."" Shinji just wanted to be understood and loved. However, Shinji says it is just a pretense, just a claim. But that isn't important to dive into for the point I'm making. Kaworu and Rei are reflections of what Shinji desires. And it's a decent thematic choice to have them resemble his parents in 3+1 the since they are halves of Shinji's heart that makes up his whole. Shinji's WHOLE character is driven by the desire to understand, but how? He is driven to be loved, but how? Kaworu and Rei reflect that.
All of that to say that there are a lot of things you can take from just the little bit of information. I wasn't fond of the ending but it didn't make me feel like the movie was saying that straight was good and gay was bad. HOWEVER, I do not fault you at all for seeing it like that. Because, on the surface it really does look like that....it really does. Both Kaworu and Mari are queer coded and seemly put in het relationships. But in Evangelion, things aren't always what they look on the surface. There is so much you can take from one scene, there are different ways to read what you're presented. I can't pretend to know Anno and his intentions for the Rebuilds, especially this one, but I don't believe he wanted things to be so cut and dry.
As you can see, I'm very passionate about this!!! Hopefully what I said made a lick of sense. And if not, please Anon ask me to clarify some things. Or maybe you want to challenge what I said! Which is cool too. Eva is a series I really love and I learned quickly that you got to realize that not everything is as it seems in the show.
I'll leave you with this: Remember that Kaworu and Shinji's names are written in the Book of Life. They are bound to meet each other over and over again. Being linked that way is pretty romantic. I'm with you Anon, kawoshin has so much potential that was seemingly shattered by this movie. But there are still some beautiful albeit brief moments between the two.
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Rec list for Eddie and Symby being vaguely to very gay?
I'm sorry for coming to you with my monsterfucker agenda 😔👊 (no I'm not)
i mean, i probably could’ve seen this coming.
venom is dominated by two opposing narratives. let’s call this the “relationship narrative” and the “control narrative”. they’re not perfectly separated, like, you’ll definitely get elements of one in the other, but generally one of them describes what the story, at its core, is using the symbiote for.
now comics are an endless tug-of-war at the best of times, much less the gayest and slimiest of times. there’s a neverending backlash and backbacklash going on between these two takes. what you want is the relationship narrative.
everything very much started out with that take. eddie and the symbiote are two characters who forge an evil alliance because it lets them do what they wanna do (kill spider-man, more or less) and they have the same kinds of neuroses and complexes and syndromes. lots of early comics are also very fun about the merged consciousness, merged identity deal. that’s kind of the textbook relationship stuff.
personally i absolutely think the original stories (venom was created by david michelinie) have romantic undertones, even starting in the villainy days. eddie describes their first meeting as “a shadow moved, caressed me.” he takes the rejection of the symbiote still being “in love with” spider-man really hard. he sobs his eyes out when he thinks it’s dead and promises to avenge it bare-handed. they totally expect to live happily ever after on a deserted island together.
then there’s venom: lethal protector, which is cute on its own, but if you’re reading for slime romance, i very specifically recommend the novelisation. i won’t even spoil it. and then, planet of the symbiotes is the first comic that i would say has outright queer themes, intentional or not.
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so all those recs until now are collected in this post.
we're trucking along through the 90s, we explore elements of one take and then the other and sometimes we ignore the symbiote completely, but not too much changes, overall. the next BIG stop in Gay Venom is, of course, the hunger.
miniseries by len kaminski, just venom: the hunger. plenty of people have written their essays on it, but what’s always important to me is that it DID NOT come out of nowhere. as said above, it expanded on themes that were there, it references michelinie venom very explicitly, like you get your SECOND “tenderly touching the green glass tube” scene.
but yes this one is specifically about, like, stigmatisation, otherness, mental illness, meeting all those things with care and empathy and optimism, tentacle sex. again, many essays. a venom comic that can go “look at the twisted deviance of this relationship” and then turn it around into “but how are you looking at it” is good. god how good would it be if they also did that to eddie more. anyway.
a few years later you get the first MAJOR fucking backlash, culminating in the SECOND story titled the hunger. spectacular spider-man: the hunger, from 2003. completely reboots venom and retcons their motivations and backstories, makes very spiteful references to planet of the symbiotes and the hunger, like it is not also called that by sheer coincidence. literally starts out, in a comic that wants to tackle and redefine venom, with the line “the PROBLEM is that you guys are like an old married couple”. so the new status quo is that the symbiote only ever used eddie to be with spider-man, and eddie only ever used the symbiote to not die of cancer.
the “control narrative” that really kicks in here uses the symbiote as, you know, a thing to control, eddie’s demons personified or even a completely foreign force to torment him. if eddie is evil, it’s not because of what he thinks and believes and wants, it’s because he couldn’t control the symbiote and gave in to its inexplicable bloodlust.
this is an unambiguous downgrade in terms of complexity, in my humble opinion, completely fucks up eddie’s responsibility themes, and is also a pretty clearly petty reaction to venom’s absolute oversaturation in the nineties. the bitch was everywhere and most of it wasn’t good. so there was LOTS of “look at this creepy loser” content by writers cringing themselves into self-awareness at the time. the 00s were going to be GRITTY and MATURE.
this of course means that we get to see eddie slit his wrists and bleed to death on panel after selling the symbiote to supervillains as an attempted act of redemption???
wild fucking times! it’s not exactly worth recommending as ~shippy~, but the first real backbacklash to this first round of retcons comes from dan slott, who just kind of ignores it all in new ways to die. drags eddie back to the land of the living and relevant, makes the symbiote refuse to let its new host kill him, telling that host, and reestablishing, that it loves eddie. and then, to keep him living and relevant, slott makes eddie anti-venom.
don’t even worry about it. anti-venom is essentially eddie seeking redemption with symbiote powers, but without the symbiote, except he pretty much acts no fucking different at all, just keeps on being a murderous vigilante with cracked ideas about innocence and guilt. people still act like he’s better now because, in its metatextual ways, the hunger was right.
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then fucking uuuuuuhhhhhhh. agent venom. symbiote goes to flash thompson and the us military, and the writer, rick remender, goes really, really, really hard on the control narrative. the symbiote becomes a substance flash is addicted to, gives a voice to his past abuse, it’s dark times all the times.
people very much do like that narrative for flash, like at least from that perspective it was worth it. i don’t like it much for the symbiote. for the symbiote, representing everything fucked up with flash and forcing him to murder kill bite all the time is resolved via the good guy avengers literally lobotomising it so flash can wear it without further resistance or input. imagine doing that to a human person. you’re uncooperative so we’re gonna turn off your higher cognitive functions and wear you like a meat suit. happy ending for everybody! truly we’ve conquered our demons this day.
then! at the same time, there’s a cartoon coming out, it’s called ultimate spider-man. THAT one does the control narrative take with harry osborn, but then does the relationship take with flash, making it the only cartoon to outright redeem the symbiote and let it find friendship and be valued as a person.
and people loved it! so brian michael bendis gets it in his head that he’s going to redeem the symbiote and make it partner up with flash. and he does redeem it by the highly fucking questionable means of having it be “cleansed”, aka brainwashed and relieved of its memories and personality. not that it matters for long. nothing fucking matters in comics. take this with you if it’s the only thing.
so then for fun friendship times you get venom: space knight, flash and the symbiote’s adventures in space! and then that gets cancelled. eddie is off somewhere being toxin and hunting carnage (2016). many good comics but you did not ask for them.
and THEN.
it is time for the next MOTHER of backlashes.
flash gets literally discarded at fucking roadside to put the symbiote back on eddie and turn back time on their relationship to RIGHT before the FIRST backlash happened. you know, all those 2003 retcons. gone. ignored. no more. venom’s themes are now those circa 1996 again. full fucking on relationship narrative. ROMANTIC relationship narrative, and that after the symbiote was turned into eddie’s evil shadow, after he hated it and spent a LONG time seeking to eradicate all symbiotes (and not even for the first time).
the COSTA run. venom (2016). reviled and beloved.
like this comic is fucking ANGRY about symbiote treatment. i HAD to tell you all of that so you’d understand ANYTHING it’s doing. the first thing it does is flip it completely around, puts the symbiote on a military guy who’s making IT do bad things, makes his ability to control it horrifying and abusive instead of heroic and admirable. one of the later things it does (in the follow-up venom: first host) is outright feature a villain who lobotomises symbiotes, ending on a symbiote serving him swift and sweet payback by doing the same thing TO HIM. it’s exactly as unsubtle as the hunger (2003) was about its hang-ups.
comics... are a conversation.
flash remains a symbiote friend but still got fucked over big time by it all, symbiote-focused writers slott and costa also kind of use him to literally, in case anybody hadn’t caught on, literally spell out the REAL story that’s been going on in the writer's room for the past THIRTY YEARS:
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you’ll notice i didn’t actually list any of the Gay Shit for you, you’ve probably already seen it or you’ll get to see it for yourself. yes, they are deeply in love, yes, it’s fucked up and flawed, yes, it is real and taken seriously and has ultimately redeeming potential. yes the concept of that nearly knocked me off my feet and in front of the subway at one point. yes there’s mpreg
it’s also fucking riddled with events, which spin off into other comics, so either ignore those and rely on the recaps OR click yourself forward through the “next issue (story)” button on marvel wikia to know what to read.
and after that must of course come the backbackbacklash, as certain as death or taxes. in the next run, we retcon everything once more, eddie just needs to control his darkness, the symbiote was an evil abuser all along, nothing on earth is ever new.
i’m not gonna go through it, i’m just gonna point you to the backbackbackbacklash issue that came out during this time: venom annual volume 2 number 1 - it’s confusingly named, it’s the one that has a blue-skinned space lady on it. this one ignores the backbackbacklash going on very pointedly and goes “it’s not ABOUT control” again, it’s pretty explicitly romantic.
and then there’s also marvel comics presents (2019) #5, which, oddly enough, does not particularly feature the characterisation you’d typically see in the relationship narrative? but it does feature eddie and the symbiote literally fucking, so you’d want to know about it.
that’s the overall, like, frame of eddie and the symbiote being in a relationship (nuh uh) (yeah they are) (NUH UH) (YEAH THEY ARE)
some stuff that’s smaller but still notable, uh.
nova (1999) 6 - 7, that’s the “we’re space married”
venom: dark origin, that’s an ALTERNATE (!!!) take on the character, don’t expect a likeable eddie but it’s very darkly funny and gay so what can i say.
venom: the end, which i would absolutely fucking hate to be canon, i think its characterisation is quite regressive, but the symbiote sure is in love, i guess.
venom: separation anxiety, the dawn of the control narrative but eddie’s characterisation did not have to go so wrong from here, like if they’d just figured out AT THIS STAGE that he's STILL acting like venom without it... i digress. it has the symbiote going eddie eddie eddieee
venom: sinner takes all, this is the first she-venom comic so that’s. hm. interesting. healing symbiote blanket
don’t read venom: license to kill just look at this panel with me
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if i think of more comics worth adding i’ll add them.
the subtext slash text is heavy enough to be present to some degree in literally every cartoon adaptation of eddie brock. spider-man: the animated series goes FULL control narrative, in fact it started the “the symbiote corrupted peter” take that we to this day cannot escape, but the first few venom episodes are VERY playful about their relationship.
in spectacular spider-man it’s canon, but horrible. eddie’s in love with it, but eddie's a good boy and the symbiote is played very, very, very abusively. i think this is an evil symbiote adaptation that works well enough, at least it’s an actual meaningful character instead of just a malevolent force to resist.
in marvel’s spider-man, the only venom episode worth watching is venom returns.
i’ve actually got every symbiote-relevant episode listed right here from when we did our communal watch-through.
also watch truth in journalism. idk if it’s exactly shippy just do it
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