#but that's just the spn side of it

[chuckwon]

I simply don’t like when people act like what happened to Jack is what should have happened (as if the show didn’t deliberately spell out it would be Bad beforehand!), or like we can hand-wave GodJack as being fine and good in a continuation as long as other ~more important topics~ like destiel are eventually addressed.

Jack’s fate is the crux of the tragedy of the finale. Supernatural is a show about parents and children, and that cycle of violence remains unbroken. Jack was forced to become like his grandfather (the cosmic Father of the universe) because that’s who his fathers needed/wanted him to be. Jack shouldn’t be seen as an afterthought or a side note. He’s the thematic center that ties everything together, including the queer family structure of destiel.

So here’s my hot take: whether or not they go fully explicit with any kind of Chuck won concept (and they don’t necessarily have to)… any continuation must address that what happened to Jack isn’t a good thing — for him, for their family, or for the universe since the show stated God shouldn’t have personhood — in order to truly be fulfilling.

#I meant to post this the other day and it was in my drafts #my meta #I guess??? ish #Chuck won #but you don’t even have to see it that way specifically or explicitly to know this is true #I’m just really side-eying so many of people’s so-called ‘sequel ideas’ that basically think of destiel and nothing else #I don’t want that and we SHOULDNT want that because that’s not all this show is. and that’s also why it’s so good #supernatural #spn revival #spn sequel #Jack Kline

[monstersandbrothers]

fics where jess figures out how sam feels about dean and actually encourages it and is a little turned on by it are. so special to me

#generally idgaf about jess sorry to say but sometimes fic writers just get it right 😌 #reading the ghost of somebody at his side by runedgirl rn and they do this trope so well I’m killing myselr #spn #supernatural #dean winchester #sam winchester #wincest #Stanford era

[acesammy]

The thing about how sam’s arc in season 4 is often discussed is that people simultaneously acknowledge that the angels are bad, while claiming Sam is an idiot for rebelling against them.

like I have listened through three (3) rewatch podcasts and they always seem to fall into this loop of going ‘hey the angels are Obviously up to no good’ while also going ‘Sam is really stupid. Why would he trust a demon when literal angels are telling him to stop’

idk man. Maybe bc the angels are Obviously up to no good????

#And it’s a really good arc so it’s got more going on #BUT #y’all can’t recognize that the angels are being shady as fuck and offering awful solutions #while SIMULTANEOUSLY saying that Sam should trust them implicitly #and yes there’s a lot of like very personal religious rebellion that’s going on with Sam that IS a bit .. petulant isn’t the right word #but he’s reacting to a /personal/ slight bc angels were supposed to be his hope and they are Dicks #He /was/ blinded by that #but also keep in mind that the first time sam met the angels they were proposing that they kill 1k+ people #And then there’s the flip side of this #which is that Sam gets to the point where he accepts that he’s evil. That what he’s doing is turning him into a monster. #but that doesn’t matter. /he/ doesn’t matter. So long as it saves the world #I mean the angels obviously aren’t trying too hard #lea speaks #sorry I keep dragging up dumb shit abt spn #idk I just want to get it out and this is a nice void to do so

[annmariethrush]

love reading destiel AUs and I love to imagine that they got to meet and be together earlier in their lives, but god if there’s not a special place in my heart for those two old(er) men falling in love. It’s so pure to me, for them to have been through so much, both together and apart, before finally getting together. 😭

#I love those old men #they deserve everything #they are so in love #and it’s not just in spite of it all #Cas became himself at Dean’s side #and Dean sees a someone who has failed over and over trying to do the right thing #and Cas knows that everything that Dean does is for love #ahhhh #spn #supernatural #dean winchester #destiel #castiel #deancas #casdean

[kacievvbbbb]

The thing is that Dean and his abandonment issues wants Castiel to stay, despite the fuck ups and the blame and the anger, he needs him to stay as proof that he’s not toxic that he can have good things and not break them

But Castiel, and his guilt chose to leave because that is his penance. Why does he deserve to be happy when he has caused so much suffering? How can he look at Dean smile at him when he’s fucked up so much? He needs to leave because how could he be around Dean like he isn’t a living monument to all the ways his fuck ups hurt the ones he loves.

Cas wants to help the brothers, so he leaves. He’s caused them so much pain what right does he have to be around them, when he can be out there getting them information, finding things they need, helping fix their problems. This is his penance. Because no matter how hard he rebelled or how far he fell Castiel has an innate, almost primal need to be holy, to be absolved of his mistakes and sins. And he’s made so many mistakes where else can he find penance but in misery?

And in almost every episode Dean is in some way or form asking Castiel if he'll stay this time, and every-time Cas says no. And Dean can be mean, he’s s a deeply angry man, and so every no seems like proof that he’s pushed him to far that this is it this is when Cas says he's had enough. He's not gonna stay and be screamed or laughed at anymore. Dean’s finally succeeded in driving him away as he does anyone that’s ever given a damn about him. That this is proof of how toxic he is; after all Castiel is a creature with wings, all he wants to do is fly, and here Dean is trying to keep him in a cage.

The more Cas leaves on his own, the more Dean feels the need to give him a reason too.

The ways in which we punish ourselves; depriving ourselves of the ways in which we love.

The narrative’s doomed them from the start.

#throwing thoughts to the void #the narrative is not on your side but on the side of the story. #it will always do what is most interesting #Chuck’s not evil he’s just bored. #I swear I was only going to write a sentence then an essay came out #destiel #dean winchester #castiel #dean x castiel #supernatural doesn’t so much have good ideas as it trips and stumbles into the occasional earth shattering concept. #supernatural #spn #deancas #honestly Cas has a lot to feel guilty about isn’t he like atleast half the reason his species is almost extinct? #no wonder the angels hate him I’d hate him too

[suncaptor]

The fact Sam doesn't raise his hands or try to pull away or ANYTHING when Lucifer sticks his hand inside him. Like Sam just stands there, still like mobile and not pressed up via powers, taking it.

#SCREAMING. HES SCREAMING IN AGONY. HIS HANDS ARENT PRESSED AGAINST THE WALL. THEYRE JUST. HANGING BY HIS SIDE #ask to tag #tw abuse #lucifer #casifer #the vessel #s11 #spn #incoherents #sammy #supernatural #sam winchester #s.a

[soullessjack]

this isnt rlly a serious post more so than a thought I need to verbalize but like. there’s an INSANE difference between the fandom being like “hey what if jack was actually his age and got to be a little normal” vs y’all treating a grown ass man like he has to cover his ears when someone swears or sleep with a nightlight on because he’s afraid of the dark, and throwing the P word around to anyone who thinks he’s attractive. one of these things is not like the other.

#there’s a layer here about giving jack the childhood he specifically chose not to have #and ignoring his other choices because that’s just. idk a running theme with any character who struggles to have autonomy #but whatever idk #genuinely i think the past year or so that I’ve spent talking about this has burnt me out #either that or I’m just too fixated on VB to really care too much #like obviously I still care about it and wish more was done to help but it’s not really a warpath for me to walk currently #just. #I’m just tired dawg #it’s like talking to a deaf brick wall #please just do some research into infantilization I cannot keep having a one sided conversation with people who don’t care #spn #jack kline #baby jack #spn fandom #fandom critical #fandom ableism #tfw2.0 #not even just ableism it’s the whole mischaracterization woobified bullshit all over again #and the using baby jack as a prop for everyone else but I digress #jack: *chose not to be a child and hates being seen as one and is more than willing to get violent if he thinks he has to* #y’all for some fucking reason: he’s just a widdle baby he can’t handle the scary movie he needs his daddies to take care of him #I’ve already said all these things before #i am tired. so tired

[an-android-in-a-tutu]

I will say visavis Dean and communicating about his feelings like. If you are viewing the show through a destiel lens you will be naturally inclined to view Dean as someone who keeps his feelings bottled up because there is a massive unspoken Thing between him and Cas. And I think that puts a thumb on the scale, like that's not the only reason why that could go unacknowledged it's just the more common fanon interpretation right now.

But at the same time I think the show clearly wants us to think about Dean as someone who fails to talk about his emotions, it's just that like. It's a tv show, and this trait is being introduced to be mined for drama. When Dean is shown refusing to confront or talk about his emotions, by the end of the episode or at most by the end of a two or three episode mini arc he's gonna break down and talk about his emotions. Bc that's how we get resolution as an audience, but like the build up to that resolution is Dean displaying reticence that we are meant to understand as characteristic for him. Also like. Obviously we always see the emotional resolution bc it happens on screen but the characters allude to the days and weeks between episodes where things are Not Talked About and previous attempts to Talk About Things that were rebuffed. The fact that the show focuses on all the moments og high drama where someone is pushed past their limit and all their emotions come spilling out is like, the nature of television not an indication that these characters are predisposed to emotional honesty.

All that said I dont think Dean is significantly worse about this than any other character. Cas will say as few words as he can get away with and he and Jack both hide the fact that they are dying as a hobby. Sam asks everyone else to talk about their emotions please so he can pretend he is not having any. This is a guys talking about their feelings show, in order for that to be actually interesting they have to be bad at it and fight tooth and nail not to and then be forced to be vulnerable anyway. Thats drama baby

#spn #Im like not trying to citw authorial intent or anything but I am kind of like #yes if you see a guy characterized as not talking about his emotions #having to break down his walls and talk about his emotions #and then see that plot repeated one hundred times over fifteen years #you can start to think #what are you talking about this guy talks about his emotions all the time! #And like you're not wrong #but also that's like an unintentional side effect of recycled drama yknow #not a deliberate piece of characterization #which doesnt mean you cant run with it #that's most of what we do here #but I just think it leaves the whole thing a bit more open to interpretation

[insanesonofabitch]

I think s9 human Cas should’ve died for a little bit and actually made it to heaven and we should’ve gotten to see his very best memories, which consists of random peaceful moments in history mixed with the times spent with his friends, his chosen family, with his Dean. The main one being in purgatory. The liveliness of a day in a forest on earth that Castiel was tasked to guard thousands of years ago contrasted with the eerie silence of a night in purgatory watching over Dean while protecting him from the various beasts lurking around. The little moments of peace and happiness Cas was able to find in both situations that makes up parts of his heaven. And I think Dean should’ve seen said heaven and remembered how it was the night before Cas let go on that cliff in front of the portal and thought about how Cas never planned to keep that moment, that experience being with Dean that he’s just realizing Cas must’ve loved so much if it made it to his heaven. And how back then Cas wanted to die but now he’s actually dead. And I think Dean should’ve lost his shit a little.

#this could happen in 9x03 I’m no Angel #but it could happen at other points of the story #and maybe after Cas gets to the bunker. and he gets to stay because Dean insists so because he just um fucking died. #and then. the bed. the…the…the bed… #the two nightstands…the cross…the empty bed side… #Cas GETS TO STAY ON DEAN’S ROOM. AND THEN THEY SLEEP TOGETHER. #and I’m saying like actual sleep because nothing actually happens #(bros being bros amiright) #BUT. Cas dies AFTER that. #so that goes into his piles of best memories too #and then. Dean sees it and the way that scene plays in my head is so eerily familiar BECAUSE. #it’s paralleled with 3x10 deanlisa dream scene. #and the whole time Sam is just standing there and he’s like looking at Dean and Dean is like don’t look at me like that. #and now Dean can’t just lie and be like “this never happened” (like in 3x10 “I’ve never had this dream before”) #because this is Cas’ memories. it’s real it happened. #and Sam actually looks away like he did in 9x03 when Dean held Cas’ face. #alright thanks for listening. #supernatural #spn #destiel #deancas #casdean #dean winchester #castiel #dean x castiel #reiotalks

[ooey-gooey-angel]

Who do you think would be most fun to pick apart like a lab rat and study? Just for fun, I'm curious

#i know every character has some form of brainworms but. #who would be the most fun to pick apart #whose brain has the best damage #I included just a blanket other option because there are just too many side characters #i would miss one and then somebody would say “you forgot about x!” so you get just one option #spn #polls #spn polls #supernatural #dean winchester #sam winchester #castiel

[blacknidstang]

Actually mak3s me sick how sam & dean BOTH need each other. How sam clings to dean just the same, how he lost his mind when he lost dean and it happened over and over. How even in stupid poorly written late seasons mary, THEIR DAMN MOTHER, tells sam to get some rest and face the reality of losing dean, how much sam got to watch dean die over and over and over and how a comedy episode like Mystery Spot was actually the most honest insight into sam's nightmare of losing dean and how sam himself has his own mind confront him with "you'd do anything to cling to that doomed brother of yours". I don't think there's any part of sam that didnt want to be permanently attached to dean. There's not part of sam that doesnt hold of a piece of dean inside him.

#like sam wants to be his own person #that doesnt change THIS #if i make any sense #sam's struggle to be seen as a person with his own will & on same footing as dean #doesnt change his need to also BE with dean #he just wanted jt to be equal on both sides #spn #sam winchester #sam&dean #you really cant talk about either of them without mentioning the other and this goes for sam too

[littlebluejaydraws]

Cas + Faith 9/?- 5x16: Dark Side of the Moon

The alternate quotes are from the discussion of this moment in episode 23 of @thecascast, Dark Side of the Cas. The idea of doing a series following Cas' faith journey had been floating around in my head for a while, but this discussion is what lead to me actually doing this series so thanks y'all.

ID: Three images of a digital drawing of Cas from episode 5x16 of Supernatural. The drawing shows Cas' head and shoulders, viewed from above, with his face turned upwards towards the viewer. His expression is upset. The background is in shades of orange and the drawing is set within a circle, with a quote around the outside. In the the first image, the words read "Fuck you. I believed in-". In the second image, the words read "You son of a bitch. I believed in-". In the third image, the words read "You coward. I believed in-". The difference in the quotes is the only difference between the three images. End ID.

#cas #castiel #supernatural #spn #CasFaithSeries #spn 5x16 #dark side of the moon #finally got to the one that started it all #relistening to this one while drawing this and gotta say. good ep team #cas is SUCH a character always but also specifically in this ep #he can never go home!! hes in the radio! hes in the tv! he says condolences! #he's a train without tracks!! im screaming!!!! i love this dude!!!! #the son of a bitch line doesnt take me out of the scene as much as yall talked about cuz i am always too busy being sad HOWEVER #i do prefer you coward it feels more cas-like and it just hits harder imo #and fuck you is just... mwah! #cas should get to say fuck!!

[bloodfreak-boyking]

this scene breaks my heart. Sam wants to believe so so bad that god and angels are real and that there's good in the word, and this case kinda shatters his worldview. and dean looks fucking heartbroken that he can't fix this for Sam

and sam...GOD. i mean, he just so looks defeated. like he's thinking how stupid he was for ever letting himself believe he could be saved.

and after he's flayed himself open in front of dean? and he takes dean's silence as confirmation that dean knows he can't be saved? he thinks he's gone too far and puts his walls back up bc he doesn't wanna cause dean any more worry over this than he already has.

#knockin on heaven's door is used to great effect both here and in dark side of the moon #it just makes these scenes feel so...idk /raw/ i guess #this scene really makes my heart hurt #sam just looks so incredibly small and vulnerable here #one of those scenes that makes you see how dean can look at 6'4 sam and call him baby brother #gonna go let the empty hole of angst in my chest consume me brb #emma rewatches spn #2x13 houses of the holy #spn #wincest #samdean

[kacievvbbbb]

I have literally been thinking about this (because I got stuck in a cycle of watching supernatural amvs) but like in the first few seasons of supernatural Misha Collins managed to nail his mannerisms so much that Castiel did legitimately feel strange.

I don’t know how to explain it but he legitimately look like nothing we had ever seen before.

He felt strange ,otherworldly like he wasn’t quite put together right and it just added to the unnatural ness of angels. The feeling like there was nothing quite like them.

Like I don’t know what exactly he was doing to his face to make it that way (maybe it’s just the inherent unnatural ness of such vivid blue eyes) but it’s not exactly that he lacked expressions and more that the expressions were done wrong like they were cobbled together by someone that was barely paying attention. It’s so cool honestly and just stands to show how good of an actor Misha is.

Because it’s something that no other spn angel ever really managed to match (even when they were aloof like castiel they felt more like Jack who was just learning everything for the first time instead of the inherent weirdness of Cas) and the writers just kind of abandoned that along the way and just started writing the angels like humans honestly. But it was exciting to see.

The only other angels I felt exuded the unnaturalneas like castiel were;

Matt Cohen’s Michael who just exuded unnatural levels of power. Like look at that expression those are the expressions I would expect someone second only to God to make.

And

This Raphael which just gives “I’m playing a game you couldn’t even hope to understand.”

Like these exude primordial being that I just didn’t get from the other Angels. The inherent strangeness of being an angel but looking uncannily human.

#btw I don’t hate any of the other angel avtors I think they were all good and I enjoyed them in different ways #these ones just hit different to me tho. #supernatural #spn #castiel #spn michael #raphael spn #spn angels #my thoughts #matt cohen’s michael is unapologetically my favorite Michael #followed closely by Jensen Michael #I honestly preferred the side angels to the side demons they just acted cooler and where more menacing.

[unloneliest]

if i had a nickel for every tv show with characters who first met in a season that started in 2008, had a violent first meeting, and went on to have a homoerotic "i'm your huckleberry" moment i'd have two nickels and the first one would NOT be from supernatural

#jam posts #leverage #leverage posting #i just know mr. quinn and eliot fucked nasty #spn #like yes destiel>eliot/quinn. eliot/quinn is just a fun side ship. but like.

[quietwingsinthesky]

Do you agree w/ the fandom interpretation that john was so homophobic he’d have beaten up and abandoned his sons for being gay? Cause sure, he grew up in the 60s as a mechanic and then later became a marine during the vietnam war, but i also don’t think homophobia would’ve necessarily been a priority for him? Like obviously he’s not gonna be the full on supportive and politically correct loving dad, but i think that the fandom’s general opinion on that is pretty warped by people’s relationships w/ their own fathers

I do think this is one place where people tend to project. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that; working out our issues through fiction is healthy and good! I don’t think there’s any canon proof of it beyond, as you said, him being a marine from the sixties who would probably not be super knowledgeable about being queer, maybe a little apprehensive about it from what he’s absorbed through the culture he grew up in. I think we’d be correct to point out that if Sam or Dean were queer, he might be uncomfortable about it, he might try to avoid the topic, which is in of itself hurtful.

The thing about me is: I fully disagree that John was ever physically abusive towards his kids. At most, I will bend this interpretation to say he was probably too harsh on them while teaching them to fight and that maybe he and Sam have traded blows before when arguments got too loud (by blows, I mean, probably shoving with the yelling, you know, assertion of physical space. It seems realistic to me that two people who have been using violence for a long time to protect themselves, and for John, his family, down to the hierarchal power he’s put in place of him -> Dean -> Sam, would resort to it when things got too heated.)

(I also think that sometimes fandom’s insistence that John had to be physically abusive can sometimes get a little insulting because it perpetuates the idea that emotional abuse does less harm and can be overlooked and for flattening out John’s character in a way the show very literally pointed to and said He Did Not Do That. This is the entire point of Max’s episode in s1, for the show to point out that their experiences of abuse were different. How well it was handled is arguable, but I take it as clear evidence that when we talk about John’s relationship with his sons, the focus should be on the emotional abuse, the codependency he developed with Dean from a very young age, his neglect of them both, his attempts to suppress Sam, etc. And I appreciate this about the show, because you can’t talk about any of those things without also talking about why they’re happening, why John thinks this is necessary, how he loves his sons and isolates them to protect them and ends up doing more and more damage that will never leave them through their entire lives.

I’m sure there’s depictions of John being physically abusive that handle it with the same amount of nuance that the show handles him being emotionally abusive in canon. I have not seen them, unfortunately. I’ve seen John being physically abusive 90% of the time just being used as shorthand for him being Bad and Evil and A Terrible Father. Which does not interest me. So I will remain here as a staunch defender of He Would Not Fucking Hit His Kids.)

Sorry, okay, we got off topic there this is about gay shit.

The point of All Of That was for me to be able to say, John’s not going to react to his sons being queer by beating them. He’s definitely not going to abandon them. Hello? John Winchester? Abandon his kids? John Winchester, the guy who has been keeping them in warded up motel rooms their whole lives and moving them across the country out of paranoia the demon who killed his wife could find them if they say anywhere too long? John Winchester who only trusted one or two people to ever look after his sons when he went on a hunting trip too long? We think that John would ditch his kid because they’re queer???

Like I said, I think the most realistic reaction for John, (if not just flat out him going ‘that’s fine, now load this gun while I time you because that’s more important for me to know that you can do’, because. He kind of has bigger priorities to worry about here. Like werewolves.) would be discomfort and pushing it out of his view, ignoring it. Which would still fucking hurt! And would have horrible effects on Sam and Dean both, would encourage Dean to repress it if he thinks his dad is ashamed of him, would push Sam away if he trusts John with this fact about himself and can’t be accepted easily.

I just think this is truer to John’s character.

Anyway. If nothing else here persuades anyone reading that John Would Not Fucking Do That, well. He thought his kid was demonspawn, remember? He thought Sam was corrupted and might not be able to be saved. I don’t think you can get more clear queercoding than that, and you know what John’s very telling response was to that information, to finding out something a thousand times more terrifying than Sam being gay ever could be? To refuse to look at it. To insist to himself that whatever Hell wanted with Sam, he wouldn’t let it happen. To tell Dean to take care of it, because even when John is certain that his son might literally become a demon, he could never bring himself to pull the trigger on him. Because he loves Sam.

So like. He literally would not do anything for the much smaller realization that Sam is gay. His son has demon blood that might turn him super evil, and John still wouldn’t hurt him.

I guess what I’m trying to say here is, I try to keep the fact that John loved his sons at the forefront of my mind when I’m writing stuff about him, because I think if you let that slide out of your head, you can very easily make him much worse, much more flat than he was in canon. The real picture of him is just an extremely flawed man in a terrible situation who fucks up his kids as much as he protects them.

And also he wouldn’t care about them being gay because JohnAzazel real and true and they fucked sloppy in that hospital basement-

#this was so many words holy shit I did not need to ramble that much #but I did <3 #this is what u get when u send me an ask I have too many thoughts #john winchester #ask #spn #again reiterating that like. it is not a bad thing to work out ur issues through fiction. #hell knows I do. and hell knows I used to be a lot less kind to John BECAUSE daddy issues. so I get it. it’s literally fine. it’s fandom. #u are free to do whatever so long as you aren’t a dick to other people about the character they like that you dont #(…I am going to side eye you if you feel the need to insist john had to be physically abusive because he was just That Bad to his kids. #but that’s more like. ‘I think you might have some unexamined biases about the nuances of abuse.’ more than anything.) #tw abuse #re: John abandoning his kids: #I know Bad Boys(?) has John leaving dean at the boy’s home. uh. personally? #I think that’s just bad writing. I think they misunderstood John’s particular brand of weird relationship to dean. #I don’t tend to count that instance as canon or at least not in the way the show presented it. #but ur mileage obv may vary. it’s just my opinion that that was a later seasons fumble.