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dathen · 4 years

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One of the things that gets lost in all the “all the women in TMA hate Jon!” jokes is the chance to analyze Jon’s relationships with the women of the show in the context of him being an ace man.

Years and years ago, I wrote an essay about the fandom trope of “The Ace Misogynist.” At the time, there weren’t really any canon asexual characters to talk about, so you had your handful of characters popularly interpreted that way--Sheldon, Sherlock, etc. The clues people would pick up on to support the asexual interpretation were often misogynistic; this “I have no use for women” attitude common with nerdy or cerebral male characters in fiction. I don’t have the essay anymore, but the sexist and acephobic aspects of “if I’m not sexually attracted to women I have no use for them” are plain to see.

I cannot express enough how much I love that Jon is written as the complete opposite of this. Setting aside the “all women hate Jon” jokes for a second, let’s look at how his relationships with the women in TMA actually develop:

Sasha got along with Jon better than any of the other assistants, felt comfortable teasing and badgering him. Between their banter in TMA 24 and her statement in TMA 26, it’s heavily implied that she’s on a similar wavelength as him and gets him in a way the others don’t. Despite starting out on the team with a lot of baggage between them, she warmed up quickly.

Georgie was out of contact with Jon for years, but it’s plain to see the easy dynamic they fell into as soon as he showed up again. She seemed completely comfortable with the idea of him staying in her house.

Basira grew comfortable with Jon so quickly it flat-out shocked Daisy. Basira started out investigating Jon for murder, but quickly grew fond of him, thought he was funny, and even began taking risks to help him. Season 4 developments aside, Basira took to Jon so quickly that Daisy suspected there were supernatural elements at play.

And then Daisy! As soon as monster hunter mode took a backseat, they fell into one of the best friendships in the entire show in an instant. She became his friend and protector without hesitation, shares her interests with him, looks forward to spending time with him.

In discussions I’ve had with a lot of fellow TMA fans, many have noted that the quick comfort the women in the show (aside from Melanie) have with Jon resembles their interactions with their male asexual friends. The things brought up most often are an undercurrent of comfort, an overall feeling of safety, and skipping past that initial phase of “can we be friends or does he think this is Going Somewhere.” Of course this is all anecdotal, and there could be plenty of people whose experiences don’t line up with this, but it was enough that some fans were getting ~ace vibes~ from Jon long before the confirmation in TMA 106. In addition to this are the perspectives I’ve read over the years from ace men about relationships in general. I won’t go into too much detail here without actual articles to link, but a common theme comes up over and over: how central hypersexual heterosexuality is in social expectations for male friendships, and how much that hindered developing those friendships in their lives.

How much of this was intentional in Jon’s writing is anyone’s guess. He was planned to be asexual all the way back in season 1, but the addition and increased importance of so many female characters was in response to Sasha’s voice actor leaving, Basira’s popularity with fans, Fay’s compelling portrayal of Daisy, etc. Whatever led to it, though, it’s wonderful to see a canonically asexual male main protagonist be so opposite to the Ace Misogynist Trope I railed against so many years ago. Writing an asexual character extends beyond just their relationship to sex, and it’s fun to pick out other details like this that ring true.

#the magnus archives #tma #jonathan sims #ace jon #sorry to discord friends who have heard this essay from me in chat form 50 times already #i have a lot of feelings about this #tma spoilers #ALSO I LOST THIS THE FIRST TIME I TYPED IT AND SPENT AN HOUR AND A HALF RETYPING #it was much better the first time I promise #never type essays on your phone kids learn from my hubris #top posts #tma meta

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thevoidcannotbefilled · 4 years

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Web!Martin.... Oh boy. Gonna shake the hornet’s nest with this one, but I’ve spent like three days on this editing and re-editing, and I’m finally satisfied with my kind of an essay at this point.

So, here’s a deep dive as to why I think Web!Martin has merits. (Scroll to the bottom of my essay for my TLDR).

Introduction

First, to get some stuff out of the way:

Do I think Martin is a sleeper agent? Do I think that he has been manipulating Jon this entire time or even in just season 5 for the games of the Web? Do I think he's a bunch of spiders in a Martin suit? Do I think he's regards the Mother as his Mother and accepts that he is her Son? Is Martn actively Webby?

No. Absolutely not. None of the above. The Martin we know is the Martin we began with, just with a bunch of trauma and has gained the ability to set his boundaries.

I find the idea of sleeper agent Martin or something similar to be very counterintuitive to the overall narrative. Not only is TMA about choices, and to have Martin be a sleeper agent would be to deny all of Martin's choices this season in particular, but it doesn't really lead to much. At best it's a gotcha and a surprise at worst it's making literally every interaction between Jon and Martin, with Martin himself, and so on mean nothing for the sake of one twist and make it sad. It's not fun in long term, and so at the end of the day, I trust Jonny and Alex as writers more than that. (Plus we already did the "person is replaced" thing).

Does Martin being a manipulator actively mean that he is a Web avatar?

Short answer, no.

Long answer, I made a post awhile back, and while it was for fandom things, I think it applies well here. What power you choose to align yourself with isn’t necessarily something you’d fully commit to. It is just, if you were an avatar and willing to hurt others for your own gain, what would you find yourself most aligned with. What I mean by that, just because Martin lies and manipulates doesn’t mean that he is Web, however, manipulation is a tool does fit well with the Web, and if he were to choose to align himself to that, I think he could be Webby. However, he is not necessarily a Web avatar because he has no motivation to hurt people.

That being said I do think Martin would be a good fit for the Web if he wanted to be, and I think there will be a point in the narrative that there is a potential that he could become one, even if he does not necessarily choose to be in the end.

Let’s talk about it.

Evidence

I think the best way to describe Web!Martin on my end is this: if Martin had an inclination to be an avatar, he would be the Web because everything from his aesthetics to his skillsets line up with the Web, but he does not have any reason to be Webby and in fact, at the very least as of MAG169, should actively be against the Web’s goals.

But that doesn’t mean his connection to the Web hasn’t been heavily foreshadowed or built up. Not all of these are of the same level, I admit that, so I’m just gonna bold the ones that are the most important. These aren’t in any particular order.

-For season 1 subtext, said he liked spiders In This First Appearance MAG22, in MAG38 Jon says that Martin gives them lectures on the importance of spiders for the environment, and MAG39, “it’s just that whatever web these statements have caught you in, well, I’m there too.”

-IN MAG79, his poem has a line in it that goes, “"the threads of people walking, living, loving" which is very Web-like.

-During the Web statement he read in season 3, he said “that wasn’t so bad, actually!” (MAG110) when he finished after showing open disdain for the others he read. The only other statement he didn’t think was bad to read was the Lonely one (MAG108), a power he canonical has ties to.

-The only person in the show so far of the main cast that has had direct contact with Annabelle Cane. The only other people that have had contact with her are her victims (Creature Feature, MAG110) or her people she used as tools (Web Development, MAG123).

-Let himself be guided to put the tapes on top of the coffin when the tapes, which have shown a direct association with both the Web and the Eye.

- Martin’s “lo-fi charm” and “retro-aesthetic” (various) versus Annabelle “She dressed like a vintage clothing store exploded on her” (MAG69)

-Uses lying and manipulation as his main tactic against people and is acknowledged that manipulation is a skillset of his. By Jonah mostly, but he was able to successfully manipulate both Peter and Jonah.

-In MAG117, he said "I’m not afraid for me, though. Isn’t that weird? I mean, it’s not like I’m going to be safe, like my plan’s not dangerous, but it’s, it’s mine. This last couple of years, I’ve always been running, always hiding, caught in someone else’s trap, but, but now it’s my trap, and, well, I think it’ll work. I know, I know it’s not exactly intricate, but it felt good weaving my own little web." and he then added after it with "oh good lord is Martin becoming some sort of spider person', no, Jon, just an expression.”

-Martin having a bad relationship with his mother versus Mother of Puppets.

-The Web and the Desolation actively dislike one another (MAG139), and fire is Martin’s most hated pain (MAG169).

-Martin is the primary investigator in Recluse (MAG59), Arachnophobia (MAG16), and was the one to find and give the Cracked Foundation (MAG114) to Jon. All of which are Web statements.

-The delivery of the table and the lighter were technically both given to Martin since he was the one who talked to Breekon and Hope.

-Martin was the first one to mention the Web lighter in season 5 in MAG162.

What Does This Mean

Now I will admit none of these things on their own mean Web!Martin. They’re something you might describe a Web!avatar yes, but not Martin on his own (like I said just because Martin can be a manipulator doesn’t mean he is a Web avatar).

In fact, with elements like Martin finding fire his least favorite pain, I adore the meta on Martin’s trauma about giving himself up for other people led to him disliking fire and the lack of care from his mother, also leading to that. It is an excellent metaphor that fits incredibly well with his character. That being said, these factors can coexist. Martin disliking fire can both be a metaphor for his own self-destruction for the sake of others and be hints toward Web!Martin.

HOWEVER, that all being said, even if these moments on their own don’t mean Web!Martin proof, I find it a bit unreasonable to entirely dismiss all of this either. There are too many coincidences lining up with the Web to not be intentional. It could be a red herring of course, but if it is a red herring.....well, Jonny put a hella of a lot of effort into making the Web!Martin red herring considering how much of his little details align so well with the small and big details of the Web.

But assuming that this info does align together in all its Webiness... does this mean Web!Martin?

Again, at the moment, I don’t think Martin is actively Webby.

At his heart, Martin wants to do two things: 1) Protect Jon and 2) Protect as many other innocents he can in the process.

As ironic as it is: "I want to find out what's going on. I want to save Jon. I want everyone to be fine and, you know what? If we were all happy that wouldn't actually be the end of the world” and “I want them to be safe. I need him to be okay” are basically the sum of Martin’s motivations from here to now. Martin wants a happy ending. And he’ll use whatever tools he can to do that.

So asking questions from dangerous people like Simon Fairchild? For the protection of the world from what he thought was from the Extinction.

Burning up statements and burning up the cabin? The Desolation would like that, if it wasn’t for the fact he does so to decrease the fear in the world.

And manipulating others? Peter? Jonah? Both of these weren’t to cause fear. They were at their heart to help others.

Using the tools that the powers use does not mean you’re of that power. Martin’s most effective tool is to manipulate others bc they underestimate him or they trust him to do what needs to be done. People tend to have a single view of him. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have other tactics, but with both Peter and Elias, it’s clear he knows how to use others’ egos against them.

Season 5 and Web!Martin

This ALL being said...... Season 5 is a lot about the nature of power (what to do with it and what it means to use it) and what you can do in inherently toxic systems. We just learned that killing its leaders does nothing when the system itself is built to actively hurt others. That smiting doesn’t actively make things better. The Web is actively doing something at the moment and possibly with the Distortion as well that will probably hurt Jon and Martin.

But.....

I’m worried about the possibility that the Web can promise a world with a happy ending like Martin always wanted and with no other options within the world, Martin chooses to let himself become a tool for the Web. Now to make this clear: Does Web!Martin give a happy ending or even a better world? No. Absolutely not. Can the Web possibly promise to give him the power to get a happy ending? Depends on if Martin will believe it.

If Web!Martin is a thing, it would be in doing so What He Thinks would be in both of their best interests and most importantly as his lowest point and final resort. That he stops believing that they have power to change the world on their own. When he believes he has no power left and all he can do to make the world better is to go to the one source that always seems to understand what’s going on. Because as of yet, he doesn’t have the motivations to be a Web avatar, but we’re slowly creeping into territory where he might think it is necessary to be one.

(We already had best case scenario where the Web asks Martin to join him and Martin says no. He could say no again, of course, but I don’t know if the Web will be as understanding of his reluctance in time).

For me, Web!Martin is on the same level of tragedy as Jon being the Archivist. Yes, there would be choices, but Martin would have been actively been manipulated by the Web just as much as Jon would be hurt by the Eye, even if it’s for entirely different reasons. He would be used as a tool in a greater game. Jon wants to be a good person. Martin wants to have a happy ending. We already know Jon’s desire to help the people around him has gotten him multiple marks. I can definitely see a world where Martin’s desire for a happy ending is used against him by the Web.

I can see a world where Martin lies to Jon because he thinks that’s what’s best for the two of them. I can see a world where he doesn’t lie to Jon but still accepts the power of the Web anyway despite Jon not thinking it’s a good idea. I don’t think either HAVE happened yet. We aren’t at that point, but...

Whatever the case, whatever plan the Web may have it highly involves one Mister Blackwood and his Archivist. And for the Web’s plans, Martin plays a key part of in it.

Other Theories and How Web Martin Plays Into It

So, do I think that’s where the plot will end? With Web!Martin betraying Jon bc he thinks it will be best? Not really. I think a lot of the point will also be that while Martin fits the Web well, his inherent desire for a better world makes it so he’s not an avatar. It’s the same points I made before: aesthetically, Martin fits the Web well and could be a good avatar in association, but he doesn’t WANT to hurt innocents. And ultimately, no matter his potential goals, Martin loves and cares for the world and especially for Jon. There could be a mistake in there made by Martin, where the Web has his clutches in him, but I don’t see a world where that is his ultimate conclusion.

I’ve also seen a theory where Martin uses Webby shenanigans to his advantage against Annabelle Cane. Where the manipulator becomes the manipulated and the tragedy is the sacrifice of himself for the sake of a happy ending he’ll never see.

I’m interested in seeing if Jonah making Martin the backup Archivist goes anywhere, especially with the uncertain connection between the tapes, the Eye, the Web, and the Archivist. Does this have anything to do with why Martin felt like he had to listen to Jon? Does this have anything to do with how he slapped Jon out of a statement? Could both of these elements also have something to do with the Web?

I’m also very intrigued on what Web Development was doing when they have something called a “story-spinner” and yet when the story-spinner was described it sounded almost exactly like an Archivist, but instead when you give a story, the spinner killed someone. Could the story-spinner have anything to do with the previous back-up Archivist? Could they just be entirely separate things?

Who knows what it all means? I don’t. That’s why I’m not discounting anything, especially with something that has so much set-up and subtext as Web!Martin. Whether Web!Martin means full avatar or not isn’t clear to me, but I’m taking any and all potential red-tape moments and running with them. If it means being pulled by a red-herring, so be it, but I won’t dismiss anything until proven otherwise. As long as Martin wants to do good and have a happy ending, I don’t think the Web can fully get him at least not in the ways that count. But I won’t stop investigating the narrative on what these elements could lead up to.

Conclusion

This post was made in frustration. I admit that. There is a distaste for Web!Martin that has been approaching the fandom that I don’t entirely understand. I’m not saying you have to like it, heck I admit, I could be entirely wrong. I also agree it’s a bit annoying that every interaction that Martin and Jon have come up under scrutiny for Martin potentially being Webby by the fandom. That’s why I started this post as I did because I don’t find the narrative of “Martin Is The Evil Bad Guy Manipulating Jon From The Beginning” all that compelling and wanted to put that to rest early.

I do, though, find it frustrating dismissing all elements of Web!Martin because of this. At the end of the day, I find there are too many elements in the text to entirely dismiss it and an outright rejection of Web!Martin can potentially lead to dissatisfaction with the narrative. I make this post as an explanation and exploration of my thoughts, and a way to show why so many fans like the Web!Martin theory. Take it or leave it, it’s fine, but I wanted to gather all my thoughts clearly in one place rather than in a bunch of snippy posts. I hope I’ve done that well enough.

TLDR: Web!Martin for me is a potential, a threat, and a possibility, but not something I think is actively happening at the moment. Martin would make a good fit for an avatar if he wanted to be, but at the moment, has no motivation to do so. However, with the ever decreasing options to save the end of the world, I can see a situation where Web!Martin is a thing that he actively thinks could save it.

That being said, Martin is inherently a character that wants to do GOOD in the world, and as long as that’s the case, even if that motivation is used against him, I don’t think he will be proven wrong that the world can be good and he has the power to make it so, or at the very least, I don’t think his journey will end on a dower note, even if it is a tragic one. The tragedy will be in the cost of saving the world or something similar, and whether or not Web!Martin is the case, I don’t think that will change. That being said, there are many potential theories on what could happen, and I don’t want to miss any of them, Web or not. This post has been made in somewhat defense as to why people like Web!Martin and continue to theorize about it, but also in reassurance that even if we do get Web!Martin that it doesn’t mean a destruction of Martin’s character.

#tma #the magnus archives #tma meta #web!martin #tma spoilers #tma s5 #I made an essay but needed to put my thoughts together #long post #ALSO THANK YOU GAMMI AND CHIN FOR YOUR HELP WITH THIS!!!#edit: my read more died when I edited on mobile gdi sorry

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gayspock · 5 years

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(tma anon here!) i just started season 3! the main trouble i'm having is remembering the names/connecting early dots with later ones and such. i know there's something about different concepts or beings or something like that being powerful and linking stuff? but also i just. Don't get what's going on in the archive like. what is jon doing. who is daisy. what do the books do with anything. my tiny gay brain can't piece things together rip esp cuz i haven't listened in awhile...

READ MORE TIME BC... FRANKLY THIS IS LONG IM SO SORRY ANON F

NAMES ARE ALWAYS REALLY DIFFICULT!!!! like, i dont blame u at all & i had a lot of the same issues - bc there REALLY IS a lot of them and they don’t get repeated enough. i would suggest, if theyre talking in depth about someone who only sounds vaaaguely familiar, to perhaps check them out on the wiki?? it’s probably your best bet, for a small refresher that u can access whenever u can.

moreover. this is obviously HARD bc ur not up to date, but? sometimes engaging with the fandom helps process things (it did for me) bc ppl’s discussions help connect things together. perhaps... try digging up old reddit threads, of when the actual episodes first aired? i suggest reddit specifically bc u can actually restrict ewhat u see to be only discussion about a specific episode in its specific thread (something u cant do on tumblr). seeing ppl discuss what happened in an episode, and what is/isnt important rlly can . do wonders if ur like me and things all kind of blur together.

AS FOR YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.. (first of all. might i suggest u go over the season 2 finale? JUST BECAUSE that explains most of what you’re asking, i think!? and has a lot of the important info, in terms of immediate plot. however... that being said, maybe if ure still struggling after that u could relisten to more episdoes? it wouldnt hurt, and if u want i could point u to all the relevant (relevant meaning: ones that will have follow up in the future) ones but- but to be honest, even then, there are a LOT of relevant episodes. so u gotta prepare uraself for that.)but i can answer the things u asked, to my own ability !! which?? i HOPE HELPS

1. what is jon doing

good question. mans gone wild!! im not entirely sure what u SPECIFICALLY mean by: what is he doing, but if u mean in GENERAL? at the very end of the s2 finale, he was framed for the murders of both Leitner and Gertrude by elias (who is the one who actually killed them both) after the former’s body was found in his office and he ran away. consequently, he is on the run from the law and is staying low at his ex-girlfriend’s (georgie) house, who doesn’t know what has happened (just that something is clearly . wrong with him).

in episode 1 he’s just recounting one of his own childhood experiences (essentially giving his own statement) which explains why he 1. hates the name leitner and 2. pursued a job at the magnus institute despite his cynicism. if you’ve made it to episode 3, yet, he basically starts getting statements sent through the mail to him (which is weird, because no one is supposed to know where he is) and he interprets this as someone sending him clues. THAT’S BASICALLY WHAT HE’S DOING IN THE BEGINNING, ANYWAYS!

2. who is daisy

she’s first mentioned in episode 43, and gives an actual statement firsthand in episode 61. do you remember basira? she’s the police officer jon was in contact with, and who gave him certain tapes that had been taken in as “evidence” by the police after gertrude’s murder. she is sectioned, which as explained in episode 43, basically means: she saw some weird supernatural shit once, had to sign a section 31 form, and is now assigned to any case which entails supernatural shit. daisy is essentially her partner on the force. she is also a sectioned and therefore also works on any and all supernatural cases. given the institute’s reputation, all cases concerning it are automatically given to section 31 officers - including gertrudes murder. which is actually why basira and daisy showed up in the first place, and why basira gave him so many tapes despite them being evidence: because they already suspected that he had killed her at that point, and were banking on the fact he’d expose himself.ANYWAY. therefore when jon was framed for murdering his predecessor, daisy steps in. she’s currently trying to find him, so she can “deal with him”.

3. what do the books do with anything. https://the-magnus-archives.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_booksthis might. explain a little bit??anyways the books were also something i was like “whahththeusdhisdhgd” about too, so big mood with that one. BASICALLY: the books have an unknown origin, and we still don’t know how they exist, or their original source. all we specifically know is that 1. they all correspond with at least one entity 2. they are especially powerful artefacts, even more so than most and 3. interacting with them has bad consequences that are variable. within the show, most people (and we ourselves are led to) believe that they were the work of someone called jurgen leitner - including jon, himself - hence why they’re referred to as leitners. however leitner turns out to be nothing but Just a Self-Absorbed Prick, who simply collected them, and added them to his library - branding them, as if they were his own, in the process. he believed that he could “protect” people from them, by keeping them in this fashion. instead this ... did not exactly work out, and instead given the fact he’d slapped his name on, like, all of them most people instead think he’s the one who put them all into the world. which, given their abhorrent nature, kind of put a big target on his back (which is why he went into hiding)

otherwise..... the books, unless something else is revealed later on, aren’t IMPORTANT-important? with regards to plot, at least. they appear every now and then, causing Situations(tm) but it was more like... a misdirection, i guess? might be the best word. as in, they were presented as the cause for a lot of shit, and thats true, but ACTUALLY: there’s a much bigger picture going on, and the books are less the root of the problem, and moreso a consequence of the problem if that makes any sense?

#anon #egg yells back

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