#byler is already endgame to me at this point. so like. whatever happens i just want mike to be a STEP closer to figuring himself out | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

carigm · 1 year

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Today Millie had a fan panel in which she answered that her ideal ending would be Mike and El getting married and Will being happy and confessing to Mike (lol) and ofc the Stranger Things fandom kicked up the old Byler vs Mlvn war once again, regardless of the fact she doesn’t write the show. But I want to break down some points here about things I’ve been noticing today, but also for a while and that I think need to be discussed. Keep reading if you want.

I’ve seen a lot of hostility towards Byler and Bylers on Twitter lately, saying we’re delusional and don’t know what we’re talking about. This always seems to be the go to argument even tho it’s all in the narrative. Today it got really bad after Millie’s comments and even people that were merely disagreeing with her opinions got called everything from delusional to misogynistic.

IF the Duffers suddenly decided to ignore everything they’ve carefully crafted and put into their narrative that doesn’t make anyone delusional, it just makes them terrible writers. Who would be doing a great disservice to all three characters involved in the love triangle.

There’s been an insurgence (on Twitter) of so called “Will stans” who seem to be completely fine with the idea of mlvn being endgame because “Will can just get another boyfriend” Not only is this insulting to what the writers have already established for Will’s character but it’s also a defense and endorsement of the worst kind of lazy/bad writing that could graze our screens.

The Duffers CHOSE to tie Will’s character arc to Mike’s and El’s.

How do you expect them to undo that and create a well fleshed out character that’s deserving of Will, in 8 episodes that we know are not just gonna be dedicated to Will’s supposed love interest, because there’s a shit ton of stuff to resolve?

If this was the route the Duffers were going for, they could’ve clearly given Will a love interest last season (like with Robin) or two seasons ago (like with Dustin) And yet somehow, people think it would be totally okay for Will to get the most meaningless romance of all time as the writers ignore the same story they’ve created.

Another point I’ve been seeing a lot from these people is “Mike won’t come out. Let it go. He’s just a very unlikable character” What does that say about the quality of the writing and content you’re willing to consume then? You’re okay with characters being poorly written? And please someone explain to me how Mike’s actions, especially in S4, make any sense unless he likes Will.

The more people try to simplify this story the more plot holes and inconsistencies it creates.

The funny thing is that a lot of these “Will stans” used to be Bylers themselves but are so deathly afraid it won’t be endgame that they’ve started to use the same rhetoric mlvns use every day to justify what would be atrocious writing.

And this next thing might be controversial but I think it needs to be said.

So many people on Twitter have hit those who disagree with Millie’s opinion today with “y’all are misinterpreting Millie’s words” and let me tell you, no one has. She’s been saying the same stuff for forever and quite frankly she’s never had a coherent thought about Will. Which is fine, at the end of the day that’s not the character she plays. However, I haven’t forgotten how last year (at another panel) she was asked about Byler and said it was just a reflection of Finn and Noah’s friendship and that was what people were seeing…

Whatever the fuck that means, I guess.

Again, I’m not taking her answer today too seriously cause truth be told she’s been saying some version of this since she was around twelve, and has even at times said she was joking about it. If a wedding were actually happening she wouldn’t be able to say it cause I’d literally be a spoiler, even if she doesn’t have the scripts yet or doesn’t know I’m sure there’s things that would be off limits for any actor to say at this point.

But this defense squad that formed today begging for us to not misconstrue her words because “she really cares about Will’s character” is laughable.

Her answers regarding the topic of the love triangle have been anything but nuanced. If she doesn’t want to get into it or address it, that’s fine. It’s her choice.

But of course, mlvn stans are gonna take her answers seriously, as well as those who are now “Will stans” who basically ship mlvn too.

And to me there’s a fundamental flaw regarding the ship wars in this fandom, which these people don’t seem to grasp. At this point, it isn’t so much about “which ship is better” but “which outcome isn’t violently homophobic”

That’s it.

I don’t care how much you ship mlvn, this is the undisputed truth here.

But when your lead actors act like it’s not a big deal, it’s no surprise the fandom doesn’t give a shit.

I can only hope the Duffers were smart enough to see reason and were able to write the only outcome that won’t set television back around 10 years or so.

And hopefully one day, when S5 is out, we can get a more in depth and honest conversation with the actors about all of this.

As for me, I’m gonna lay low and not give much of a fuck until we start getting those Reddit leaks, which were very much accurate for last season. I’ll take a peak at those, and depending on what they look like, I’ll stay around or dip completely.

If you read all of this, thank you.

#byler #byler theory #byler is real

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chirpsythismorning · 1 year

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Personal opinion; I think the Duffers are doing a mistake by not promoting Byler as a possibility at all. I know some people are gonna say that it is because they are trying to keep Byler as a plot twist, but still, they can promote the idea of it without going too far.

We like to say that how the 'ElMikeWill' love triangle is not acknowledged as a love triangle by the GA, Melvins or other fans, but honestly? It is not that it is not acknowledged as a 'love triangle' by non-Bylers, it is that it is not acknowledged as a love triangle by the show, creators or writers. It is not promoted like how Stancy versus Jancy thing is promoted. Mike’s not conditioned as having to choose between El and Will. Honestly, If I were to make my audience get warm for the idea of Byler potentially happening, i would put content regarding it, would try to portray the situation as a love triangle, like ‘Which person Mike is going to choose?’ questions would be on media outlets. Remember that the Duffers still refer to Stancy versus Jancy thing as a love triangle, they portray it as a situation where Nancy has to choose someone, media outlets talk about the love triangle aspect. Whereas for Mike and El and Will, there isn’t something like that. Mike’s not conditioned as being in a love triangle where he has to choose. Will’s situation only gets referred to as relatable and him getting acceptance. They portray Mike and El as a legitimate couple without any question, etc. That’s not exactly portraying as ‘love triangle’ situation here.

Take this as a criticism towards how they're approaching the situation, I guess. Now, I do not know what they're going to do once the trailers or filming or promoting whatever start in a couple of months. But so far, I think they just... are doing nothing and it is not good, imho.

This is all fair!

I do believe that they're going to have no choice but to be more obvious about byler endgame in promo for s5. And so I agree that in large part how I feel about their approach thus far does rely on what is still yet to come.

Personally, I think it's going to be impossible to throw in happy couple milkvan moments, seeing as there wont be any scenes like that. Not saying they wouldn't trick fans with simple fast shots of them side by side dispersed throughout a teaser or something, I just don't think they're going to go all out with trying to convince the audience that Mike and El are romantic in official s5 promo.

S5 is going to be a point when baiting milkvan romantically would be an odd choice if they want people to fully accept byler romantically. So, I do sense that a shift will happen as s5 gets closer and when promo really starts ramping up.

We already technically saw that with s4, where they didn't really prioritize Mike/El in official posters, like at all? We got couple posters for Netflix covers with Jopper/Lumax/Byler, while the one featuring El was her on her own? Then there's the Cali poster with Mike looking at Will, his feet pointing towards him, literally detouring in Will's direction like that meme... Them willing to be that obvious for s4 posters tells me that the s5 posters are going to be even more obvious. If you think about it, it honestly would have been weird to have no byler in s4 posters, same with no byler in s5 posters, only for them to end up together? Thus far that has not been the case tho bc s4 was unhinged as hell, and so it's likely s5 is going to be the same and then some.

That's the other thing about promo with like official posters and trailers, in that they hold a lot more weight to representing the deeper message of the story, especially when the show is complete with all five parts making it like a whole experience. The posters for every season will be highly regarded as holding the truth to what was truly going on. While I do get being frustrated that they don't post enough about it casually on social media, it's just that, tbh no ones going to be using simple social media posts as hard evidence from way back in the day at the end of all this (it's more just a fun addition to the real shit). They're going to be looking at official promotion that was very intricately planned out with easter eggs and very specific foreshadowing in mind, ie. official posters, teasers, and trailers.

When it comes to the whole love triangle thing, with byler paralleling to jancy and milkvan paralleling to stancy, I think there are a couple reasons why they themselves can't acknowledge those parallels.

While I recognize those parallels, and I do agree on a basic level it's all intentionally paralleled deliberately in certain aspects, I still don't necessarily think these love triangles are intended to be seen as identical situations. They have different stakes and completely different circumstances, beyond the most basic similarities between them in that we're also dealing with 2 sets of siblings that are quite similar in character and so no duh they parallel each other.

The main thing that I think gets overlooked is that byler is meant to be a sort of callback to all of the queer-baiting in media that has led us to this point. The only reason they made the choice to go about byler this way, was to subvert a very deep rooted expectation that a boy and boy ending up together on a mainstream show cannot happen. They are feeding this expectation to an audience that is happy to abide by this norm, which is what is going to make the surprise of the boy and boy ending up together, and the fact that this time the gays were actually right instead of wrong for the #1,239 time, just makes it all the more epic.

While they are attempting to follow that same pattern of every other show on the surface, they are hiding the truth in the details. This means that they can get away with quote--unquote 'queer-baiting' within the show itself by making it arguably obvious Mike returns Will's feelings, but because they never acknowledge that it's happening at all outside of the show blatantly, they're technically not queer-baiting.

Them not outright acknowledging the love triangle going on, outside of the subtext on the show itself, works in their favor in fandom spaces as well, where it's super easy for fans to stay in denial because of all of these different things at play, most of all ensuring they can fall back on the safety-net that queer-baiting will always be the norm. The Duffers are nurturing that assumption, while also trying as hard as they can to hint to the audience in the details how close minded that assumption truly is.

They're setting the audience up basically. Those that aren't willing to consider byler even when presented with hard evidence, wont. And those that are willing to consider byler when presented with hard evidence, will. Both sides are able to be somewhat comfortable in their assumptions, bc the side that is unwilling to consider it has history on their side, whereas the side willing to consider it knows that the evidence is too astronomical to not be entirely intentional.

That's the whole reason they did the monologue with Mike saying I love you 9 times... because it allowed that sector of the fandom to be comfortable in their assumptions based on what was being superficially told to them, despite everything being shown to them surrounding that event outright contradicting those assumptions.

It's all very, very intricate, as they are making decisions with the audience's reactions in mind.

I am glad you brought up the love triangle parallels, bc this concept was eating my brain the other day. Though, I was more so hung up on the fact that them not acknowledging those parallels also could in and of itself mean that the rules don't necessarily apply identically to these love triangles?

Arguably, fans are still going to ship Mike and El just like fans are still going to ship Nancy and Steve post s5 regardless of them not being endgame. But, is that what they want at the end of all of this? I think with Nancy and Steve the stakes are nowhere near as high as the sort of build up and tearing down of Milkvan, in that, by not at all acknowledging Will's role in these events like they do with Jonathan, they are saying that it isn't as simple as Mike just falling out of love with El like it was for Nancy with Steve, only to realize her feelings for Jonathan.

If it was that simple, they wouldn't have needed to carry out this fandom wide misinterpretation of Mike not saying I love you over the course of 2 seasons and STILL at the end of all that, have that audience completely in the dark about Will's role in that conflict, unless the truth is way more complex here than it was for Jancy/Stancy.

I mean you could obviously make the argument that from the beginning the Duffers framed Stancy very negatively, so maybe at the end of all of this, they do want to make it obvious that they never wanted us to ship either of them in the first place? HOWEVER them holding off on this concept outright with byler is why I think it would make sense for it to be this big thing, bc otherwise why save it for the last season? It would feel sort of anti-climactic if they treated it just like the other love triangle's situation bc of the confusion they have caused? This is no doubt going to be fucking breaking news to the majority. They're gonna need a recap and context of everything that was left out or intentionally kept from them, otherwise they're not going to be able to subscribe properly to what happens in s5.

And then there's a whole other layer of familial implications we're dealing with. Like with Jonathan and Steve, they don't have to deal with the complexity of being siblings like Will and El do. Will and Mike ending up together means that El and Mike will literally be ending the show in a sibling dynamic. And so, I do think it makes more sense for them to really want to separate the viewer from being able to ship Mike and El together, especially when they're already a little nervous fans will be too homophobic to accept byler as it is. This would make a lot of the familial references with Mike/El in earlier seasons hit a lot harder too, assuming rewatch value with byler endgame was on their minds.

So, I guess I will say I would agree fully with all of your points if this was an average love triangle, but that's not the case here. We're dealing with a bizarre love triangle by definition and I think there's different stakes that make their approach to this valid. When it's all said and done, it will make a lot of sense even if it doesn't right now.

Though, if i'm being completely honest, I think what plays the biggest role in their reasoning is hiatus. Like it truly comes down to the audience having almost 2+ years to ruminate over what happened in s4 and sort of work through that and drive themselves crazy.

If they had treated byler as an equal option to milkvan blatantly in casual promo for s4, while still attempting to make it seem like milkvan was endgame, it would have been dubbed queer-bait irrefutably. Or worse, most fans would have figured out byler was likely to happen, making the 2 year wait and the hype of s5 promo sort of fall flat bc everyone saw it coming.

Instead, a lot of people are fully confident it cannot and will not happen. Like they are 100% convinced. And we still have at least a year for them to work through that assumption...

Something to also keep in mind, is how they've dealt with leaks worse and worse over the years. And so a lot of these really exciting surprises they have, get discovered before they get the chance to reveal them. But bc so many people are homophobic, they can have a lot of evidence for byler and still manage to make this a surprise to those people. That's what makes this revelation so fun to them. Because it's soooo obvious in their eyes and yet most of their audience doesn't want to see it. Like that's gotta be very satisfying for them in a big way. I can't even imagine.

How I see it going down, or at least how I think it would make sense for it to go down, is while hiatus is still going strong, they want to keep both sides fairly confident, but especially milkvans side because that is eventually going to disappear at the end of all of this. The clock is ticking. When it's over it will be over forever. And so I understand why they're trying to hold onto giving those fans hope that milkvan will happen bc they only have so much longer for that to even be an assumption before the truth is eventually revealed.

And yet still, there will be a point when they want the audience to like s5 and accept it as the best ending, and that will mean that s5 promo will present a major shift in terms of them sort of agknowleding that the fans who have been paying attention know that the writers care about the details. That people who say the deatils don't matter are not going to be ready for what is to come. That is going to very likely be the wake up call to those that have been using stuff like them forgetting Will's birthday means that they forget things and therefore nothing can be that deep. It will no doubt be a punch in the gut for sure to those that have been in denial about that, but it's going to happen and it's probably going to happen within less than a year before the premiere.

6 months is another time frame that I could see them getting more brave.

3 months is when it's going to start getting real.

1 month and weeks, days before, it's going to be crunch time. They're going to be very heavily encouraging rewatching the show. They're going to be getting defensive arguably to prepare themselves for the inevitable backlash.

But they also know that it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, the truth was hiding in the details all along. It didn't come out of nowhere. It was right there. I think they feel comfort in that no matter what, bc anyone claiming it came out of nowhere at the end of all this, is gonna look stupid when the creators themselves are saying that is the opposite of the truth.

And then when s5 finally does come out, likely in 2 volumes to hold onto the hype as long as they possibly can, before it ends forever, that's when it will really set in that they're not going to hold back anymore and this is officially canon now. That's when the cast will fully agknoweldge it and talk about it and how they dealt with keeping it in the dark for so long and why felt the need to do it this way. And that's when hopefully you and all of us will get the closure we need.

The idea is that the satisfaction of being the first ones right ever in the history of mainstream television, is going to be immensely satisfying. Arguably, seeing those who vehemently denied it happening's reactions to it happening, will make all of the doubt along the way worth it.

#byler #byler endgame #st promo #st5 predictions #i feel like the shift already lowkey happened with s4 promo tbh #like almost all milkvan posts were sort of mocking them #they barely got featured on posts comparing st couples #if i'm being honest the painting bts was the official shift for me #arguably the definition of a cultural reset #s5 is really just going to be s4 on steroids #also them not allowing noah and finn to do press at all together #means they are likely saving press with them for s5 #not only do fans have to accept byler endgame #they gotta see the actors playing them praise it and show support and give their thoughts on the experience #i know it doesn't make sense now #it's also hard arguing with antis and being treated like your crazy #talked down on like 'hey frequent queerbaitee! know your place'#they treat ppl who fall for queerbait like they're the ones that are part of the problem...#they don't realize how horribly they are missing the point #the problem isn't people harmlessly shipping fictional characters #it's when they do so and then the creators feed off of that for hype and use it to promote the show despite knowing it will never happen #and then bc networks are too scared of having gay characters #*enter the bury your gays trope*#the culture has always been to get brownie points for featuring a gay character only to kill them off to appease the homophobes #that way the gays can have an oz of representation and the homophobes don't have to deal with the complexities of queerness #everyone wins right?#no...#that's the whole problem they are trying to poke fun at #they literally had mike and will bury a dead body to poke fun at how absurd this norm is #it's a love letter to a history of queer people being told their crazy for seeing things only to be right this time. it's pretty cool

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stefonshotline · 2 years

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Finished vol. 2 and I finally believe Byler stands a chance

After Vol. 2, for the first time I believe Byler is headed to... SOMETHING.

Here’s why:

- Vol 2. was overall good but very predictable.

- Eddie died! That was basically telegraphed from the begining with the whole “not a hero” thing.

- Mike made a BIG ROMANTIC SPEECH where finally told Eleven he loves her. Called that out by episode 4.

- Will sorta kinda but not really confessed his feelings to Mike but Mike didn’t get it. Yup, also called it.

What I meant by all is the the Duffer’s brothers aren’t known for groundbreaking, shocking plot twists. So here’s a couple of things I’m counting as foreshadowing for Byler happening in some capacity:

- the close-up on Mike’s rainbow socks. Uh, what’s up with that?

Couldn’t help but recall how Finn’s character on IT, Richie Tozier, who’s actually cannonly gay, also had rainbown details on his clothes, as a child.

I’ve been informed the sock’s are Argyle’s! Sorry, friends!

- The scene where Will is in the light while Mike is the dark, until he reaches and touches WIll’s shoulder and the shot lingers on them.

I was honestly so distracted by the very pointed symbolism of that scene that I have no recolection of the content of their conversation.

- Will and Mike placed close to each other/side-by-side a heck of a lot during the finale, but especially in the last shot where Eleven sort of wanders away from Mike.

Now, am I saying: REJOICE Y’ALL, BYLER IS GONNA BE ENGAME! No, i’m not saying that at all.

There’s so much politics involved with putting together a same sex couple in a hit television series, especially if it involves, arguably, the main boy character... So much can happen from here to when we’ll see these characters again!

So, what I am actually saying is that the things I listed stood out to me to the point for the first time since I’ve started watching ST, I felt the narrative was building something towards mutual Byler.

What’s that something gonna be? Well, my prediction is that next season, at first, we’ll just see Mike and Will super close again, kinda like in S2. Peharps we might get a bit of a twist, and Mike’s is the one chasing Will down a bit and asking to hang out and Will might or might not be available. Idk, we’ll see. The point it is, I feel S5 will focus on their friendship a lot.

People are gonna be shipping it like crazy, the word queerbaiting will be thrown around a lot, we’ll lose our minds thinking Byler is headed for canon.

This is where things get tricky for me!

What to do with Mileven? Honest, friends, I actually felt their conection for the first time in a long time in Vol. 2, so I’m not hating, but Mileven forever seems like a doomed relationship to me. On a narrative standpoint, it’s just a dudd. Both characters’ development suffer from it and where can they even go at this point?

Regardless of what happens, I think Mileven might take a backseat in S5, and we’ll see much more of the individual characters doing their own thing.

I also predict they’ll toy with the idea of Mike being bissexual. Hell, after Vol. 2, I already feel they’re planting the seeds. It’ll of course be done very ambiguously so those who want do deny it, can still deny it.

We might get villain!Will and Will dies at the end. Jonathan then tells Mike Will really loved him and WAH WAH WAH. Unfortunately, this one feels very likely.

We might get Eleven dying as a hero at the end. Will and Mike live on after a full season of building them up as endgame and the last shot of them is something vague that can be interpreted as friends or lovers, depending on whatever you want to read on.

#stranger things spoilers #byler #stranger things #don't lose hope y'all #stranger things speculation #will myers #mike wheeler

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digestionsack · 2 years

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Mike’s Playlist Analysis Part 4: Takeaways and Extra Songs

Takeaways

What I noticed about this playlist is that it completely backs a lot of the theories that you guys have (especially the “Telephone Operator” on, that was kind of insane), so you’ve probably already heard my takeaways stated somewhere else. But I’ll just summarize anyway to make it all neat:

1: Mike is getting hella Vecna’d in S5.

2: With all the death references, there is a possibility he might die—although I don’t think it will be permanent.

3: He has an extreme hero complex which correlates with his inferiority complex, and it looks like his mental health really isn’t that great (“Mad World” being on his list deeply concerns me). There’s a lot of repression going on here, a lot of walls he’s put up, most likely because of his family life. My guess (and what the playlist suggests) is that he will have a breakdown in S5.

4: Whatever happens with Byler, Mileven is breaking up. Several songs support this (“Don’t You Want Me” and “When Love Breaks Down”). Also, if you look at El’s playlist even without a deep dive analysis, this is made even more clear (the fact that “Jolene” by Dolly Parton is the last song on her list…other people have mentioned that several times). What I find interesting is that there is nothing very clearly pointing to Byler like there are signs clearly pointing to a Mileven breakup. I think this speaks to Mike’s own confusion about feelings and the Duffers probability didn’t want to spoil too much…but “Smalltown Boy” is still at the top of his playlist. But the song that convinced me the most of Byler endgame for me isn’t actually on Mike’s playlist—it’s on Will’s (“Breakdown” by Tom Petty). Duffers were wild for including that song. Really.

5: Mike is getting the hells outta dodge at the end of Stranger Things. I noticed a “running away” motif in his playlist (the reference comes at least six times, emphasis on at least). This is an especially big theme in “Smalltown Boy…” do with that what you will.

Extra Songs

So, as you might have noticed, I didn’t analyze every single one of the songs. There are a lot (over 30), and some of them stumped me in regards to their potential narrative meaning. Here’s the list of songs I didn’t cover—hopefully someone else can crack them!

1: “Always Something There to Remind Me” by Naked Eyes

2: “She Blinded Me With Science” by Thomas Dolby

4: “Teenage Kicks” by The Undertones

5: “You Spin Me Round (Like a Record)” by Dead or Alive

6: “You Really Got Me” by Silicone Teens

7: “It’s My Life” by Talk Talk

8: “Too Shy” by Kajagoogoo

9: “Be Afraid” by Franz Ferdinand

10: “War” by Frankie Goes To Hollywood

11: “Spirit of the Night” by Tesla Boy

12: “Shake Your Molecules” by Soma Holiday

13: “Hand on the Gun” by Empire State Human

14: “What is Love?” by Howard Jones

15: “Destinations Unknown” by Missing Persons (these last three 15-17 definitely have some juicy stuff to analyze, but I unfortunately could not get to it because senior year is kicking my ass.)

16: “Space Age Love Song” by A Flock of Seagulls

17: “Blue Monday” by New Order (I’ll get y’all started: COLOR THEORY!)

WHEW!

What a wild ride! That was so much fun for me, and I hope you all enjoyed it just as much! I’m planning on making my way through the playlists, so we’ll have to see who’s next…

Until next time,

digestionsack

#byler #byler analysis #mike wheeler

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you-usuratonkachi · 2 years

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Mileven has a beautiful story and ruining them in season 5 would be a shame. Byler is so toxic,mike and will fight all the time and Mike makes Will suffer all the time. That’s why i think it’s better for will to find another crush.

This was me up to S4. Never thought this would happen. I always very much liked Mileven. In a they-are-such-cute-kids kinda way? Their feelings are so pure. But the moment puberty hit and things started turning more physical and less sentimental it kinda went downhill.

It was very funny at first, and I still enjoyed them for the laughs. The way El dumps him in S3? Iconic. It was honestly just funny and pretty accurate for their age? So yeah, I was into them in S3 too, even though I could see Byler happening in the background, I thought they would never truly go in that direction.

But then S4 happened, and I hate to break it to you, anon, but they already ruined them? They took the chance they had to make them grow as people and characters TOGETHER to instead show how much they do not work in a relationship as older teens.

They always only grow when they are separated as characters. When they are together, it’s stagnant, their relationship does not further them in any way.

They spent the entirety of S4 showing how incompatible they are in their desires and threw them a confession at the end that was barely half-assed.

I wasn’t a Byler until S4 dropped. I was a true believer that Mileven would be endgame. Ignoring their red flags, I was ready to accept it all because they were CHILDREN. And I thought for sure they would write their issues off eventually, by making them grow together as people. They didn’t. They went the opposite direction, in fact (which makes more sense, but you see? they chose to do this).

It’s not Bylers who are shoving Byler down everyone’s throat after S4, the show itself made it a whole plot point this season, which is why I’m now in this fandom at all.

If they just ignored the built up they had in S4 to go back to Mileven like it never happened, I would sincerly wonder what they smoked before filming S4 and what all that was even about. Why the whole love triangle even EXISTS.

There was no need to make Mileven look THIS bad even if they wanted us to feel for Will.

I don’t know where this is going, but they ruined Mileven once and for all for me, the moment they had Mike confess his love for her by lying, quoting Will, after being prompted, without even looking at her in the eyes, mentioning nothing but her powers. The moment they made his love confession about Will and his love for Mike (always remember you’re the heart playing in the background) they ruined Mileven forever to me. I could not take that seriously anymore no matter how they twist it. I do not believe they truly love each other anymore. Not like that.

Care? Of course. Love? Romantically? Eh, I think they grew too much to even believe that themselves.

EDIT: also about Byler being toxic, I don’t think so at all. It’s not Mike’s fault he does not get it (yet). It’s not his fault they aren’t on the same page (yet). Also the word toxic is used so losely when talking about ships, it’s pretty annoying. Most realtionships depicted in media are toxic because the characters in them have a character arc that goes from them having a personality issue (for whatever reason) to them overcoming it. So yeah, they start off problematic and eventually grow as people, which also changes the nature of the relationships they are in. It’s called storytelling. It’s not toxic if the story is going in the direction of addressing the issues and fixing them. On the contrary if the story ends with the same issues never addressed and portayed as romantic, than THAT’S toxic.

#byler #i shipped mileven so hard #i thought they were so cute #but they are so much more grown now #and what was cute back then is an actual problem now #which is normal #you can't expect 12 year old to be in romantic relationships that will survive adulthood?#they barely know what a romantic relationship is #eleven did not know AT ALL #and for how incredibly epic it might look like from outside #these kids did nothing more together than kiss in their bedroom and update each other trough letters #it is hardly the emotional relationship you think it to be #they were still very cute #but i think they have ultimately outgrown their relationship #at least that's how it feels like in s4

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onstoryladders · 2 years

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so thought about getting into byler or rather stranger things latley but i remember your post about byler having strong gramblack vibes and i am still haunted by the disaster that was gramblack (my beloved). and honestly i dont know if i could turn off the shipping goggles when i know they are shipped by others when i start the show. so from a scale of like toddblack to gramblack what kinda mess is byler?

Oh, this is a nice one. I don't know how but anons on this blog ALWAYS manage to read my mind and ask exactly what I want to be asked 😂 I've wanted to talk about Byler and Gramblack for eons, you have no idea gdubdgsy so here we go!

Alright, I'm gonna preface this by saying that Gramblack is truly the ONLY thing in my past experiences that still manages to give me some doubts about Byler. If it wasn't for that, then I wouldn't have anything to fear, because every single detail in Stranger Things points to Byler, and even though many people joke about Byler ending up like Johnlock or Klance or whatever other Ship That Never Was™, those have absolutely nothing in common with Will and Mike, starting with the fact that Byler is already half canon, since Will is canonically in love with Mike.

Gramblack was just-- terrible writing, but it was also malicious (because the writers wanted to skew our perception of Gram and Black's relationship so they could “surprise” us with that shitty twist) and concerned characters that weren't as important to the story as the main ones (I don't care what anyone says, the writers cared about SeanWhite the most lol which is such a shame because between the three pairings they were the least interesting to me, but I digress).

In Byler's case, we have an established love triangle between three characters that are very central to the narrative. The Duffers said Will is gonna have an important role in season 5, and we're gonna see the resolution of his coming of age arc – which is not just about him being gay in general, but also about his feelings for Mike.

Now, I can't see the future, so I don't know what will happen in season 5. Maybe the Duffers will catch a bad case of Selective Bad Writing™ and start fucking up the Byler storyline out of nowhere, what do I know. What I do know is that everything points to Byler endgame, and many arcs and characters are gonna suffer if they decide to take a step back from a path that THEY chose – because there was absolutely no need to show how IN LOVE Will is with Mike if that storyline has to end up in rejection.

And since the other couples in the show are well written, I don't see why the writers should suddenly decide to make Mileven endgame when... well, I mean, there must be a reason if no one can stand them, even in the GA 🙄

What I'm trying to say is that what makes Byler similar to Gramblack is that both pairings are what the story NEEDS in order to work. In both cases, if you mess up the couple, you mess up everything else too, because the relationship is so strongly intertwined with the narrative that it's a crime not to see that.

In Gramblack's case, that's what happened, but as I said: it was malicious, and all the hints about Gram being in love with Black were put there for a reason. We weren't imagining things. We weren't delusional. The Not Me writers consciously decided to EXPLOIT our expectations to gain an emotional reaction from a twist that didn't work.

I don't think the Stranger Things writers are gonna do the same thing. The backlash would be a nightmare, and they seem to care about their characters enough not to fuck up on purpose.

Why build up a romantic connection for four season and make it end up in rejection? If Will was a girl or El was a boy we wouldn't be here rn 😭

#byler #gramblack #anyway anon i understand you #i have yet to watch vol 2

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elcorhamletlive · 1 year

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i agree sm with the “mike accepting will would be so amazing and the perfect end to will’s arc” take being SO annoying. both b*l*rs and straight people who are anti-b*l*r center mike so much in the culmination of will’s story and it’s so obnoxious. to me the ideal ending for will (in terms of romance) is moving on from mike but not being alone. it irks me that the popular dichotomy is “byler is endgame” or “will’s endgame is just acceptance from straight people/mike and he’ll be perfectly fine with that and it’ll somehow replace any desire he has to be loved romantically.” i do think mike is probably going to find out will is in love with him but i want will’s primary coming out moment to be with his mom.

Yeah I feel like this is an annoying dichotomy as well, and I find it difficult to encounter people in fandom who, like me, find both of these options unappealing.

I've said before, though, that I do think some of the blame lies with the Duffers - while I understand the choice to make Will being in love with Mike as a way to handle his sexuality, I feel like it's something that should have been dealt with earlier, and Will should have gotten an actual love interest afterwards (or, at least, a character meant to fullfill this role in the future should have already been introduced at this point). If Will had been given more screentime in season 4, I think this could have been accomplished nicely. I don't think the Duffers made Will's storyline about Mike, exactly, but I feel like they didn't think that, from the viewers' perspective, it would be more satisfying if we got to see Will moving on and having a romance on the same narrative level as the other kids (I empathise "narrative" because I feel like people are very deliberately obtuse when I say this - I know Will couldn't take a boy to prom in rural Indiana in the 80s or whatever, it's about screentime and narrative weight).

In the end, I guess it all depends on what kind of "Will not being alone" ending would satisfy you personally. To me, specifically, an ending where we see Will in a flashforward epilogue with a nameless husband, or smiling at some dude he bumps into at college, would not be satisfying at all. This is the extend to which I can understand the b*l*r truther logic: Season 5 being the last season, there is little time left to properly introduce a new love interest for Will in a way that actually allows the boy to exist as a character outside of the relationship and for him and Will to develop a meaningful dynamic. Again, I understand why b*l*r shippers would prefer to have the gay romance happening between two main characters and having been, uh, "built up" across multiple seasons. Of course I don't think this actually happened between Mike and Will and them getting together in the last minute would not change this opinion, so this is where we diverge, but still. I get it. It's the same reason people are shipping Robin with Nancy (another main character with a distinct personally, involved in the main plot, slowly developing a dynamic with Robin across multiple eppisodes) than with her actual love interest (super minor character whom we know next to nothing about, could easily be cut from the show without any major consequences, has a grand total of less than five minutes interacting with Robin onscreen). Basically, Will stans want him to experience something more like Hopper/Joyce than Robin/Vick1e, and I can't fault them for that.

However I do think it's possible for the Duffers to give Will an actual romance in the final season. It wouldn't be the 700k slow burn b*l*r truthers dream with, but it could still be a good storyline. Whether you think it will happen or not is a different story. Personally I don't think there's anything regarding Will's feelings for Mike that still needs to be addressed in the story, which is why I don't care for the idea of Mike finding out about them. I think it would be in character for him to be understanding and accepting, but it would take away valuable screentime from Will's plot, which I think could be used in more interesting ways. Like you said, if Will really can't have a boyfriend we get to know as viewers, at the very least let his big coming out moment be with his mom. That'd be the bare minimum, from my perspective.

#anti byler #sorry for rambling anon i feel like this is confusing #but yeah basically: i think the duffers did will a disservice by dragging their feet with this storyline

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mayabruhbruh · 4 years

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Stranger Things 4 Analysis and Theory

I don’t know if anyone else has done posts on this stuff yet (it’s really likely, but i’d not want to take the credit if i’m not the only one who’s thought of this)

I know @kaypeace21 has made tons of posts on the s4 movies from Video Store Friday, and many others have theories and analyses, but back in July I took it upon myself to research more into the very last few scenes of s3. Specifically the three months later time stamp, where Steve and Robin are in search for a new job.

My main focus was the four movies that they mentioned for Keith at the counter. “Animal House”, “The Hidden Fortress”, “Children Of Paradise”, and “The Apartment”.

(reminder that if you read this, it could be spoilers for the final cut of the actual show if i end up being correct about some of this, so read at your own risk)

My first theory, which I’ve already discussed in a separate reblog, is about The Hellfire Club. But i’ll say it here too.

Basically,

(sorry for the sucky quality)

Animal House is about two awkward freshmen going into college and joining a fraternity of rejects. It matches Mike, Dustin and the Hellfire Club perfectly! Personally, my lowkey theory is that they’re going to have to go though an entirety of initiation activities (possibly drugs too, if what we’ve heard is correct) and Lucas and Max will be in their own storylines up until the supernatural threat brings them back together again. This could be wayy off, but still its my idea.

As for Max and Lucas...

I’m not sure about the entirety of the plot of this movie, but the last line sounds a lot like something that would happen between Lumax. Lucas is a basketball jock now, I think that’s crystal clear now seeing from the Pep Rally poster, and how he’s always been the one in the group to be able to mask his nerdy side. For Dustin and Mike, I know it’s much harder for them. Anyways, Max, I’m pretty positive by now, is going to be extremely distant and defensive from everyone just like she was in the beginning of s2, since she just had a big change happening in her life. It’s the same now, except with the grief and loss of Billy. My guess, from the hints of this movie and other stuff, is that Lucas is going to come face to face with his reputation as a popular kid, and his love for Max. Like the summary says, he must decide between the advancement of his career or the girl that he loves. Real hard hitting stuff.

Onto the next one. MIKE WHEELER. (or will byers)

I watched an analysis video on this movie, because I haven’t seen it yet, but again the very last line is what I’d like to focus on.

My. Jaw. Dropped.

I’ve read many analyses of Mike Wheeler being gay (courtesy of @kaypeace21 @hawkinsschoolcounselor and MANY others), but I dunno, I was always just so skeptical no matter how much it made sense. But when I saw this WHAT THE HELL?!?’);/&? It’s stupid of me to not have believed it sooner, but I hope this is the movie that foreshadows Mike’s storyline this season. I’m assuming Mike will have to “prove his expertise in battle”, or perhaps prove he can go through with all of the initiation shit for The Hellfire Club, while hiding his growing revelation that he might be gay/bisexual.

BUT a possibly more likely scenario would be that this movie connects with Will Byers’ storyline this season instead. Perhaps the hardships of a new school and a new town has Will shaken up, and he also has his sexuality awakening that he has to hide from new people. I say that it’s more likely for him, because Will has always been more heavily queer-coded (not exactly heavier, but just extremely much more apparent and obvious opposed to Mikes queercoded subtext that we really had to dig for).

I also didn’t mention this in my reblog from earlier, but I want to address my opinions on the apparent cheerleader that meets Mike and befriends one another. One of my friends on twitter said Chrissy (her name, or so we think lmao) might be a key component to Mike being able to discover and come to terms with his sexuality. But then again, a different friend of mine thinks that the amount of content were getting is oddly suspicious, and that the Duffers are feeding us all the wrong information to lead us to all the wrong conclusions. But, at this point, why not both. At the moment, everyone thinks that Chrissy is Mikes new love interest, but what if she really isn’t, and they’re pulling a Robin on us (i call it a robin because it was technically straight-baiting in s3 LMFAO). I’m not saying that she might be a lesbian (although 👀 it says on her character info that she’s 18 (robins got some game to work with now ahaha)) but it could be a straight-bait up until she helps Mike realize his sexuality (i would have said realizes his love for Will😍😍 but recently ive been trying not to input byler into everything i fucking say, so theres how that’s going). Anyways. Last movie!

Now, I’m currently not super concrete on this one to be completely honest. I have a few in mind...

Okay, so don’t attack me, but this could possibly be a mileven storyline. It sort of fits. They have an undeniable connection, but “their fortunes shift considerably and they’re pushed apart” aka the misfortune of the mindflayer and hawkins not being safe for them leads them to moving away and literally being pushed apart. I don’t know about the pursuing other relationships, but we still have no idea what’s going on with El Hopper tbh, i havent a single clue what’s going to be happening with her storyline atm. But either way, that could be it.

ORRRR the MUCH more likely scenario, Jancy :)

Bloggers on here have already predicted that they wouldn’t be endgame, and I was only slightly skeptical because although their relationship was built on shared trauma, a very unstable foundation to have for a ship tbh, i still hung onto the fact that they cared for eachother a lot :,( But the entirety of their season 3 bickering and this summary kind of sealed the deal.

Just like Mike and El, Nancy and Jonathan have been pushed apart aswell. It was already seen in season three that they’d be better of leading separate lives, aka Jonathan was doing fine at the internship, whereas Nancy could have been somewhere better for herself. I doubt they broke up at the end of season 3, but there’s bound to be new relationships for them seperately. It sucks bc I love Jancy, but s3 showed how badly they snap at one another when there isn’t a life threatening event at hand. Jopper on the other hand, I thought their bickering was adorable, but i’m getting off track, sorry lmfaoo.

Once again, I probably am not the first to talk about these, but jsyk if you steal this from me specifically i will track you down and end you. I’ve been speculating about these things since April and July, which is pretty weak tbh, but that was when i had nothing better to do LMFAO. i hope i got at least something right, but i haven’t seen many of the video store friday’s movies, which sucks bc those could really help. But whatever.

(i wrote this really late at night, and it’s poorly edited bc my eyesight sucks lmfao, but i hope you get what i mean)

And that’s it! I hope you like it, or had some sort of impact from it idk, just sharing my thoughts tbh. Anygays, if you have any questions/added ideas/thoughts of any kind, my inbox is always here, you can private message me, and comment if you want!! i love y’all sm lmfao, so excited for the upcoming content were about to get soon, byee!

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