"Fall from grace" no. Boring. Basic. Innacurate.
c!Wilbur was pushed, stumbled, collapsed, started rolling down the hill from relative "grace" and then on the way down was like "this is fine actually" and decided to keep rolling instead of trying to get up, along the way hissing and swiping claws like a feral cat at anyone who tried to pull him out of it.
c!Dream stood on a platform below grace labeled "Little Bitch Boy," looked over the edge, asked "hey is anyone gonna jump down there?," didn't wait for an answer before just going in for a cannonball, and cheered even as he crashed into people and destroyed shit on his way down.
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genuinely why is it considered a hot take or incorrect that c!phil stabbing his son was, y’know, kinda fucked up?
like. “c!phil wasn’t aware of the full situation and was in a very unexpected position” and “it’s morally fucked to stab someone (notably your child) just because they ask you to” are two statements that can and should coexist.
and I fully acknowledge c!phil might not have known about the three lives thing, or might not have known c!wilbur was on his last life; hell, he might not have realized at the time c!wilbur was mentally ill. I’m open to there being nuance and depth to the situation, because there very clearly is.
but just like trauma is an explanation of and not an excuse for the many, many fucked things people have done on the server, none of that makes what c!phil did okay.
like. no matter what you tell me, you’re not going to make it okay that he killed his child. peer pressure, lack of context, none of that excuses or erases it. it just adds depth to the action. and to this day I still don’t understand why people are thinking I hate c!phil because I firmly say he’s done wrong (when I notably say his character is interesting and has potential and I enjoy him, though disagree with the majority of his actions on the server) and come and attack me on twitter or some shit for daring to suggest their favorite character has done wrong.
c!phil killing c!wilbur just because he asked wasn’t great. in fact, doing it because c!wilbur asked frankly makes it more fucked up. full stop.
does that mean I hate c!phil? no. does that mean he didn’t have a reason? no.
but I wish people would stop acting like it’s okay just because c!wilbur asked for it and at least claims he doesn’t blame c!phil for what he did. because it isn’t, and it never will be.
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"i'm really trying not to be a shit person to you, tommy, i'm really trying!"
you're failing c!wilbur 😃👍
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ranking (untagged) philza/techno critical arguments i saw after today's stream:
7. philza was a neglectful father: i've become numb to that at this point i barely even process it. if ur gonna shit on phil at least use some creativity
6. techno was manipulating phil: what in the god damn fuck. wild enough that it goes above neglect
5. techno should apologize to tubbo for executing him: i'm convinced these people haven't actually watched any of the major events before they start using them in arguments. points for being marginally less stupid than the last two
4. phil would've gone along with the butcher army if he'd known about the red festival: ah yes. i, too, would willingly stand by and allow my best friend to be executed because he was pressured into a bad situation. objectively a lil bit funny so it shoots up to 4th place
3. phil should confront techno about killing tubbo: only this high up because its absolutely hilarious that people thing philza "forced to kill his son" minecraft would leave his best friend because he was forced into killing someone
2. phil should talk to techno about the pit: NOW we're getting somewhere. it would be very interesting to see phil grapple with the fact that techno often went along/encouraged wilbur and wilbur often viewed techno more as a weapon than a person, and no part of pogtopia exemplifies this more than the pit. if only the people arguing for this weren't somehow making this about tommy
1. phil should make the antarctic empire canon again: absolutely correct. fuck you old man those are my emotional support war crimes
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what we’ve learned about c!wilbur today on this blog:
1. did wilbur utilize propaganda?
YES. as a president and later a running presidential candidate, he did use what is known as propaganda in his political pursuits.
2. was this a bad thing / make him a bad person?
NO. propaganda is actually not inherently negative, it’s a form of persuasion, which is what all presidental campaigns do. it would only be bad if wilbur lied or spread false propaganda, which he did not do as president.
3. did wilbur manipulate/gaslight/abuse people during the pogtopia arc?
NO, those words mean incredibly serious and specific things, none of which wilbur ever did. he was actually just having a mental breakdown and a paranoid spiral that he yelled at everyone about
4. did wilbur hurt people during the pogtopia arc?
YES. despite not actually being an abusive manipulator, the relationships wilbur had at the time with most characters were toxic because he was lashing out over his traumas/paranoia. he hurt them badly and probably mentally scarred them from the ways he acted.
5. does his trauma excuse this?
NO. it does however explain it, and let us know he wasn’t doing it intentionally. but even so no one is obligated to forgive him. they’re still hurt by him, and it’s their choice to forgive him or not.
6. was wilbur an evil corrupt lying manipulative power-hungry dictator all along?
absolutely not (see all of above)
for more information, see all the anons who came on my blog today lol
*this is all about canon c!wilbur’s actions and some ooc character insight from cc!wilbur, however it can change if we get new info or if wilbur decides to change something by word-of-god. this is what we can understand with the info we currently have, and if wilbur is playing c!wilbur to be evil he hasn’t shared that with us yet, although he might in the future.
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i don't know what c!wilbur has planned, but there is something so...wrong about him saying "i would have killed c!dream if i was there in exile for how he treated you, how he hurt you, but now? now i realise that would have been a mistake, c!dream is the hero"
c!wilbur admitting to knowing the full scope of what c!dream did, that he abused c!tommy in exile, and still - to c!tommy's face - saying that c!dream is a hero and that c!dream is in the right, that c!dream needed to do what he did, it was necessary.
i hope it's all smoke and mirrors, but the last conversation he had with c!tommy, that was very manipulative, coupled with what he said about c!dream - it puts him in a very bad and very uncomfortable light.
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...Did anyone else notice a trend in the fandom to trust the characters over the content creators when it comes to intentions and character flaws? Guys, I'm pretty sure when they said "unreliable narrators" they actually didn't mean the writers.
"c!Dream is actually only obsessed with hurting certain characters and he never had any good intentions, people are making the 'ends justify the means' thing up to make him seem sympathetic, I mean he literally said he doesn't care about anyone and that he does what he does because it's fun" *ignores cc!Dream literally saying he only wants people to get along and employs progressively more ruthless measures to reach that goal*
"c!Techno is a tyrant and a hypocrite in canon, actually, the Syndicate is a government" *ignores Techno, Phil and more subtly Wilbur laughing at how stupid that entire take is*
"c!Wilbur was a good guy at the beginning who only wanted peace and safety and spiralled due to stress and trauma because he said so and it doesn't make sense to the character for him to lie" *ignores cc!Wilbur listing pre-existing bad traits and toxic mindsets that caused him to be negligent of the citizens he 'claimed' to care about and stating them to be the reason he spiralled in the first place* *ignores cc!Wilbur saying L'Manberg was only made out to be important because c!Wilbur wanted to have power over it*
Beginning to see the aforementioned trend?
Maybe if your "hot take" goes directly against what the people who write the characters say, you are the problem, not everyone else.
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thoughts on this one guys? /gen
stuff like this always makes me feel mildly anxious because it makes me feel stupid for interpreting things differently, but i genuinely am open to changing my mind if you guys think this is more accurate to canon
*for reference i am what would be called a l’manberg loyalist. also i do not think techno represented anarchy in a very positive light
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”c!tommy affects c!wilbur's mental health by viewing him/treating him as an awful evil person” inhales. i don't know if i'm missing something here, and if i am i Encourage people to tell me, but that isn't something that c!tommy does often. he hasn't treated c!wilbur as irredeemable in awhile, not long since the pogtopia days iirc, he didn't trust him in the beginning when he came back and was Hostile towards him, but that was a trauma response. he had a talk with c!foolish about how he wasnt going to give up on wilbur- was gonna try and see the good in him because he cares about him, and the hesitance he has in wilbur right now is valid considering c!wilbur was a part of the trauma c!tommy endured, although unintentionally. he is working with c!wilbur willingly despite his distrust, and the whole "forgive me for what i do while with wilbur" he said to quackity/las nevadas, wasn't demonizing c!wilbur imo, it was more so a "hey, i'm gonna go against you and work with wilbur and i might hurt you by that, but i'm too loyal to him to not so forgive me for it".
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Wilbur: “i would’ve struck down Dream on the spot for what he did to you in exile.”
me: “YEAH WOOOO”
Wilbur: “Dream is a hero and we should let him out of prison.”
me: “wha-? no? no??”
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"c!Dream was never manipulated or influenced by anybody, he became a villain through his own bad decisions and he deserves what he got."
look me in the eyes and tell me that anyone, anyone on the smp tried to help him. i dare you.
george, who manipulated the public opinion against him for fun? who turned people against dream? who twisted dream's words, guilt-tripped him, made him out to be the bad guy when he tried to protect him? george, who never once visited him, or showed to be of any support, after everything dream had done for him since the very beginning of the server?
sapnap, who never tried to support him? who never told dream they were wrong about him? who dream covered for, again and again, taking the blame for sapnap's mistakes and fixing his mess, just for sapnap to turn against him, and believe the first bad thing tommy or george said, without ever listening to dream? sapnap, who visited him in prison, only to say he deserves to stay there, in terrible conditions, until his death, and that he'll kill him if he won't?
puffy, his self-proclaimed "guardian", who enabled his plans in giving him obsidian to build the walls without him ever saying a word? who never tried to talk him out of it, or to talk to him at all, then proceeded to say he should be in prison and that he doesn't deserve therapy or for her to visit him?
wilbur, who crafted a narrative in which dream was a tyrant for trying to preserve freedom and unity? who spread lies and forced this worldview onto everyone he met? who only ever sided with dream after proclaiming himself evil?
tommy, who doesn't look out or empathize with anyone besides himself and the small group of people that he cares about? who believed wilbur's every word, called dream the ultimate villain of the server, long before dream ever hurt him?
quackity, who condemned dream for seeking out power when he himself was hungry for control? who supported george and sapnap, the only people he had left, in leaving him?
sam, who worked alongside dream as he was spiralling? who tortured dream through starvation and punishment in the prison even before quackity came in? who dehumanized him, called him a monster, denied him basic human rights?
punz, the last person dream was hanging on to? who knew what dream wanted, and knew exactly how far he was willing to take it, but did nothing to stop him or try suggest a different approach? who betrayed him for a better pay with no regrets whatsoever?
don't get me wrong, some of these characters i don't blame for their actions, but the point is that dream was completely and utterly alone.
as much as cc!dream's said himself c!dream is "reserved" and likes to "withhold emotions" (aka he's an emotionally repressed bastard), there were big red flags blowing in the wind for his friends. just the fact that everyone seemed to hate dream just for trying to help and mediate since the beginning. that he isolated himself emotionally and acted so unlike what he was before. that he felt so lost and scared that he became desperate to try and control the situation. that he cut all attachments, accepted he was a "monster".
no one in the entire server of mostly adults, many of whom were older than him, tried to help him in any way, before villainizing, dehumanizing, and attempting to kill him.
when you're trying to do what's right and repeatedly get told you're in the wrong, doesn't that mess with your morals, your perception? when everyone says you're a bad person for trying to keep people from creating division, and no one disputes it, doesn't that make you feel lost and confused?
dream was going through a spiral, even if we didn't see it on screen. the dream from the l'manberg war is so much different from the dream during the disc war finale.
i wish more people realized that people's utter ignorance of that, of all the characters' choice to believe dream's a villain without any proof, until he became one, was in essence what caused him to become as corrupted as he did.
dream's choices were his own, but the reason he was willing to go to such lengths was the product of the environment he was in.
that is why i believe c!dream's a product of his environment, the entire dream smp is absolutely screwed, and every single one of them needs therapy.
thanks for something to my tedtalk.
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me: i dont know guys there’s just so many c!wilbur critical takes... they must know what they’re talking about seeing as there’s so many of them. and c!wilbur did sound mean during pogtopia... what if he was just a mean guy? we have no concrete evidence he was good underneath.......
me listening to eight by sleeping at last and hearing “for the innocent, for the vulnerable, i’ll show up on the front lines with a purpose”:
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I think it's been more than two months since I pushed my "Wilbur is remembered far more competent than he is" agenda in your asks.
So let's rectify that, shall we?
Wilbur is pretty fucking incompetent. He's never been that amazing charismatic smooth talker we characterize him as (not that I'm not absolutely behind that too)
Like. Who did he ever successfully smoothtalk? The Lmanbergians? None of them were ever hesitant to join from the very beginning and Eret betrayed them pretty easily when Dream manipulated them.
Techno? Techno wanted to join them, he was the one who reached out to them. There was no convincing needed and Wilbur never convinces Techno of anything Techno wasn't already willing to do by himself.
Dream? Definitely not during the revolution and Dream's support during Pogtopia was Dream following his own agenda, not being influenced by Wilbur in any way.
He couldn't even get Quackity to let him into Las Nevadas.
Nah, the only person Wilbur ever smooth talked is TommyInnit. The fucking powerhouse of this cell. And even that's not completely true. Tommy hasn't been convinced by Wilbur of anything since the very beginning of the Lmanberg revolution. Not during Pogtopia. And not even now (it's not smooth talking if it's just exploiting mental exhaustion and trauma and all that. Tommy isn't convinced of what they're doing.)
Really. Not even Tommy, per se.
He just got Tommy extremely loyal and attached to him.
And honestly, that's all he needs.
You don't need to have influence over everyone, you just need to have strong influence over the right person.
And that's what Wilbur had and has.
Wilbur's accomplishments are just pretty much him having a vision and Tommy throwing himself at it to make it come true.
Wilbur had the idea for L'manberg but Tommy was the one leading the troops. Tommy was the one who negotiated for their independence and got it when Wilbur was negotiating their surrender. Tommy was the one who FOR NO REASON built the escape tunnel they escaped through when Dream blew up L'manberg and he was the one who built the lil panic room at the end. Tommy was the one who's home became the embassy to L'manberg (something Wilbur very much pressured and kinda manipulated him into btw. I'm never not gonna mention that lil detail when the embassy comes up)
Wilbur had the idea and stood around looking pretty. My guy literally stood around looking pretty, without armor, during battles. Just. I love him.
And let's not forget that Tommy was fckin great at being the general. The SMP was so much better equipped and still, L'manberg was kinda winning. To the extend that Dream saw the need for TnT (which was hidden) and the betrayal through Eret (which was hidden)
Dream felt the need to pull two deceitful moves to keep if not even gain the upper hand.
If I'm not mixing stuff up here, correct me if I'm wrong.
And stuff like the tunnel weren't even expected of Tommy. My boy just thought of that on his own and did it on his own. Noone knew it existed. Noone expected it to exist.
After independence Wilbur is implied to have been leading but he generally wasn't around too much. Tommy was keeping order in the more face to face kinda way. He tried to navigate people's personal conflicts and make sure things didn't escalate and just. He did so well.
And Pogtopia? Oh, Pogtopia.
It's a bit more difficult here, since they were no longer on exactly the same side and goals are more muddled but still.
(and I want to make it clear that I'm in no way trying to shame Wilbur for mental health issues or anything. This isn't about that. I'd never fucking even imply that)
Tommy kept morale high. He made sure that other people were fine, when there was a chance. He tried to reassure Wilbur when Wilbur was spiraling, he asked Tubbo if he was happier, he told Tubbo to be safe, he recruited Quackity when he saw the chance while making sure that Quackity's intentions were sincere enough (he didn't just naively offer Quackity a place in Pogtopia and risk it being a trap).
He avoided any kind of destruction to L'manberg as much as possible.
He rallied people.
Really, his one actual flaw was not "turning" on Wilbur. His unwillingness to give up on him or even just incapacitate him or limiting his ability to act as he wanted was what ended up costing him everything. His unwillingness to interfere with Wilburs plans beyond talking to him and threatening him with a crossbow that one time ended up making the 16th possible. And he can hardly be blamed for that.
And Wilbur, during Pogtopia... Well... Nobody liked him, he made everyone uncomfortable and most people just kinda tolerated him because... Yeah...
Without Tommy troop morale would have been abysmal thanks to Wilbur. He constantly put himself and his side down, labeling them as villains and thus morally inferior. He pitted his own people against each other, spread paranoia between his people. No communication or actually planning involving other people. Still refused to wear armor.
And don't get me wrong, that's the point. He wasn't on their side. Obviously Tommy added more to their victory, Wilbur didn't want their victory. But still I just wanna praise my boy Tommy, he was. So amazing. Boy fucking peaked.
He's so good in tactical warfare or whatever you call it.
And I wanna just make it clear that this isn't criticism of Wilbur. Not at all. This isn't criticism at all. This is just about the big fanon perception of Wilbur as this great and mature leader.
Tbh this is actually more about showing people how amazing Tommy was and PLEASE I WANT FICS TO HAVE TOMMY BE MORE OF AN EFFECTIVE POWERHOUSE
Regarding my former ask I just wanted to clarify again that I'm not trying to critique Wilbur or anything.
It's really just that I think it's hilarious how people remember him as way more put together and competent than he really was.
Yeah, honestly one of the biggest disservice people have done to c!Tommy in this fandom is fail to portray him as the badass general that he actually was. Like, sure, Wilbur's title was as "general", but he never did anything for it. He gave a few speeches, but then the work was left up to Tommy. Like, genuinely, rewatch the Eret betrayal vod, Wilbur says it openly that he's leaving it in Tommy's hands. And Tommy does manage to lead his troops into an advantageous position! They get their enemies to retire at one point during the very first battle!
Then, of course, there is the betrayal, but, once again, Tommy didn't give up. He built the tunnel for their scuffed escape beforehand and, when everyone was just about ready to give up, he went against Dream in a duel and then traded the discs for their independence without loosing a beat.
Tommy was a BIG asset during that war!
Wilbur mostly was and still is kind of a wreak. And it's not his fault, 'cause mental health is an absolute bitch and he wasn't doing too hot after the war, then it got worse with Pogtopia and even worse during the 13 years in Limbo. And now we are where we are now with Wilbur being... not a great individual.
But still! In Pogtopia Tommy was the de-facto leader. And yeah, that was because Wilbur wasn't on their side anymore, but they didn't entirely know that. Or didn't wanna see that.
Tommy himself was hoping that Wilbur would "come back around" if he managed to get back their country. That was a big motivator for him. And he did everything that was in his power to do to not lose either Wilbur or L'Manburg. He tried talking to Wilbur multiple times, tried persuading him that there was another way, he never bought into Wilbur's ideals, he recruited people and he lead the troops once again. It wasn't Techno that lead the troops (despite him being a much better fighter) it was Tommy. And once everything was exploded and Techno and Wilbur betrayed them? Well he kept encouraging people. Literally I'm begging everyone to watch that vod! Tommy was there at every step of the way, telling Niki that it wasn't over, telling Quackity to keep fighting and, after that, you know who was there to validate Tubbo's presidency? To rally people behind him? It wasn't Tubbo. Tommy gathered everyone by the L'Mantree and got their spirits high once again.
He is just genuinely amazing.
And, like, yeah now Wilbur managed to manipulate Tommy to an extent to be by his side. But that's not that much of an accomplishment anymore because Tommy has just been through so much that he's exhausted now, as you said. Like, remember when Tommy said he wanted to be on Wilbur's side because "he gets things done"? Well, I'm still waiting to see that one honestly...
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sam nook asking c!tommy to get materials for his own hotel, that he wanted to turn into a safe haven for the server and designed himself - and never rushing him to get what was needed.
c!wilbur asking c!tommy to get to stone for c!wilbur's own project, which c!tommy is afraid will destroy the server, but he wants to prove himself. who is checking up on whether c!tommy is mining what he asked, and who says he's disappointed when c!tommy isn't mining at the exact second he checked in
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I'm mad. /rp
L'Manberg was created by Wilbur according to his ideals of freedom against Dream, but by all laws and function it was a democracy, meaning he had a say in what happened to it, but so did fucking everyone else!
Who cares if it was as founded for drugs?! I don't care if Wilbur founded it to launder money!!! It was Tommy's home! And Niki's! And Jack's, Tubbo's, Quackity's! I don't care if he did or didn't care about it in the long run. It was never his L'Manberg to ruin!
He says he's changed and he keeps apologizing. But this isn't over. Not by a longshot. His selfishness damaged Tommy's view of him and he no longer sees his brother as a safe person to be around. He no longer sees him as someone with his best interests at heart. And he sees Wilbur as someone who abandoned him when he needed him.
I think Tommy deserves to be angry. I think he should be angry for a long time. And you can bet I'm going to be too.
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wilbur’s “tommy, look at me! the one thing you tried to do when i was gone, tommy, was make that hotel and it failed. it failed! you’re in the right place!”
vs techno’s “i guess you’ll just never get your discs back, tommy.” “no, well i can get them back myself..” “yeeeahh, yeah right. you can’t even have your own house! you don’t even have your own house, you’re livin’ in my floorboards like a raccoon!”
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Wilbur Soot was/is a victim of circumstances and an absolute tragedy. He was hurting and no one knew, no one recognized it before hd started spiraling. He was in desperate need of help, he deserved help. He was unwell, it's a fucking tragedy.
Even now his philosophy is one of self destruction and he's building up walls to protect himself from the sufferin he had to go through. It's so clear he's hurting and he doesn't know how to trust and hes given up on hope and it hurts to watch. He's a victim of circumstances, of power,of his past, of illness. Hes hurting
Wilbur Soot stood for everything I disagree with. His politics were built on nationalism and seeking power, and he dragged people into it without ever fully explaining what he was doing it all for. He pulled people into his stories and then self destructed without caring who it hurt. The way he treated Tommy, Tubbo, Niki, Quackity, Techno and even Phil in the few moments they had, all echo on in their stories inescapably. He created wounds that never healed and I don't trust him as far as I can fucking throw him. He hurt so many people and I don't forgive him.
I hope he learns that there are better ways to be, and the world isn't a cruel aa he thinks it is. I hope he learns that love can exist without it being betrayed, I hope he learns that people can be kind and that there are things worth saving. I hope he heals.
I want him to be okay. He deserves to be okay
None of these are contradictory!! None of these out weigh the others, none of these are more real, none of them counter each other! Its and not but
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can we finally all collectively realise c!wilbur is not the golden hero everyone makes him out to be 😁😁 is that a conclusion we can all come to yet or are people still going to insist he’s a Good Person TM
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Ok this may be wrong but the way c!Wilbur acted to c!Tommy kinda reminded me of that parent who listens to you talk but doesn’t seem to be really listening to your words. Its like the parent who only “listens” because they know that they can’t speak untill after you’re done. The one who doesn’t really take your words into consideration and thinks they’re always right. The one who goes “I know whats best for your thats why I’m doing this.” Thats the vibes i get and i think thats why i don’t like c!Wilbur very much right now
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