Fact: Obi-Wan, at least in Legends, was a war general at age thirteen, leading children in the single digits into battle, burying other child soldiers, experiencing the full horror of war before he was old enough to shave, and without adult protection or his primary weapon.
Caveat: This adventure, and many others in the series, was structured in a manner appealing to the target audience: twelve-year-olds seeking a character they could project onto, a hero they could pretend to be without having to deal with an adult keeping them out of the action. Due to the series being designed with that in mind, the relation these series have with actual canon, even before Legends was retconned out, is generally assumed to be tenuous at the best of times.
Fact: Satine grew up in a civil war and her decision to become a pacifist at the head of the New Mandalorians is heavily informed by the violence that she and her people experienced for so long, including a year spent dodging assassination at every turn with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn.
Assumption: Satine regularly uses 'no more too-small bodies dead in our streets' as one of her most heartfelt pieces of rhetoric, as a thing that is both far too real to her and the most relatable to a wide audience, since it is an extreme but also a reality, and thus something that centrists and even some traditionalists can agree with, not just the liberal reform party that she belongs to.
Conclusion: Part of why Obi-Wan fell in love with Satine is because he lived through the exact kind of horror that she was trying to prevent, and she related to his traumas (if from a greater distance, having been nobility) and treated them with the appropriate gravitas. He was a child soldier in a civil war, and the core of her political platform is preventing wars, both civil and imperial, that could escalate to such a point of senseless violence as Melida/Daan. While Obi-Wan continues to engage in violence as self-defense and in defense of others, his respect for Satine's political views is actually greater than it would be for almost anyone else he knows (except maybe Bail Organa), and his actions of violence as a Jedi attempting to prevent harm in contrast to her refusal to engage in anything but the absolute most minor acts of violence (e.g. throwing a rock at someone's blaster hand, stun bolts, etc) is actually a relatively minor quibble when seen in the light of how the two of them likely bonded over their similar sets of traumas and ideological ideals as teenagers born of war.
Addendum: Satine must have felt really fucking betrayed that Obi-Wan had gone from 'using violence in a short period of time to prevent greater acts of violence or even genocide, as part of his duties as a Jedi protecting the weak' to 'war general leading a slave army in a conflict that seems incredibly pointless from the outside, even before you know about the Sith stuff.' They bonded over being children in warzones who'd grown up wanting wars to not happen! This isn't Satine looking the other way as Obi-Wan helps back up a slave revolution, this is just! The kind of stupid war they said they hated! Drafted or not, she feels hurt and betrayed that Obi-Wan's in this situation.
Addendum to the addendum: I think Satine would have been less judgemental about Obi-Wan's position if she'd known about some of the truly horrific acts the Separatist side was committing (e.g. Blue Shadow Virus, the WMD in Aayla's episode with the monkey people, the 'round up the villagers as human shields and take everything they have of any value also maybe let's sell a bunch of them'), and Obi-Wan's feelings of obligation towards preventing that even if the larger conflict wasn't necessarily something he agreed with.
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Regarding My Good Vlad AU (College Years)
Sorry I’ve been kinda scattered as far as posts since I’m taking care of my mom who just got released from the hospital the other day but now that things are settling down at least a little I figured I’d share something that we touched on in my discord server a bit.
So, honestly, we know very little about Jack, Maddie, and Vlad’s true relationship and friendship beyond a few hints here and there about their shared past. Still, just look how genuinely happy Vlad and Jack are in the flashback below! Like seriously I just can’t help but feel they were ACTUALLY friends at one point and I wish we knew more about that to add a bit more depth to Vlad’s character.
Oh and btw, wouldn’t it be the cutest thing if Maddie’s the one who took this picture? Then again, she probably would have noticed the guy behind them about to dump punch on their heads much sooner and tried to warn them about that. Either that or Maddie barely managed to take this shot this before they got totally drenched...
Anyways, moving on!
In “Bitter Reunions” Jack tells us that:
“In college, he was my best friend. We were very popular guys. Roommates, lab partners, we did everything together. Until the thick fingers of fate stuck themselves right in Vlad's eyes.”
And after the flashback he concludes:
“He was hospitalized with a horrible case of ecto-acne. It devastated him...and killed his social life. We haven't spoken since that day. But the good news is, I think after all these years, he's finally forgiven me.”
Now, in my Good Vlad AU I’ve obviously changed one key element here in that Jack and Maddie BOTH apologized to Vlad much sooner when he was allowed to have visitors in the hospital (Here’s a link to a oneshot I wrote about it which you can also find here on tumblr: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13952979/1/Reconcile-Good-Vlad-AU-Oneshot) because it’s clear that in the show they never did that since they literally stopped talking to Vlad after he was hospitalized which come on, that’s a pretty crummy thing to do guys so you’d better hope you just weren’t allowed to visit him.
Moving on though I did notice something interesting in the quotes I shared above. And by that I mean Jack tells us that he and Vlad were in fact, roommates! Now, that might not seem like a big deal but it’s pretty telling, I mean they had to be close enough friends to decide to share a dorm room together right...? Well that or they just kinda met by chance and hit things off somehow then agreed to become roommates and I for one would LOVE to learn the story behind that or make something up myself someday!
Now this next part probably loosely applies to almost any version of Vlad if you keep it canon he went to the University of Wisconsin with Jack. I tried to do some research on the actual college and the most important things to remember about the University of Wisconsin are:
It’s a school that’s basically as old as the state of Wisconsin itself founded in 1848.
The college is located on the shores of Lake Mendota and its main campus is about 933 acres and includes 4 national historic landmarks (not sure which ones since I didn’t bother looking)
“Its academic programs include 136 undergraduate majors, 148 master's degree programs, and 120 doctoral programs.” ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Wisconsin%E2%80%93Madison
The University of Wisconsin is what’s known as an R1 University, which simply means it does a lot of high end scientific research and honestly that makes sense given the kind of students Vlad, Maddie, and Jack were.
"The Wisconsin Badgers compete in 25 intercollegiate sports in the NCAA Division I Big Ten Conference and have won 30 national championships. Wisconsin students and alumni have won 50 Olympic medals (including 13 gold medals).“ ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Wisconsin%E2%80%93Madison (Note: I bet you ANYTHING this is where Vlad got the term “Little Badger” from, not to mention the school mascot is a badger in a sweater. In Wisconsin they play a lot of football, basketball, and even hockey!)
Ok this next little snippet is totally unrelated but I thought it was funny while reading the wiki I shared a link to above:
So yeah, long story short, this school is surprisingly large and important to the state of Wisconsin which we don’t really get much of an idea of in the show like a lot of Vlad’s complicated history with Danny’s parents. Speaking of parents, the tuition is nothing to sneeze at with about 10k for in-state students and 37k for out of state at least from 2019-2020 which is not including room and board and all that which makes me wonder...how did these three pay for it? Think about it, Vlad didn’t become a billionaire until much later so who paid for their college education?
Personally I like to believe Maddie’s family has a strong military background with some science splashed in while Jack’s family is also scientific but to be fair we know that they’ve been researching/hunting ghosts since the 1600′s so maybe they have money from selling their various inventions whether they were ghost related or not. On the other hand, I usually picture Vlad’s father as a businessman who could have easily sent his son to a college like that. That said, the most likely answer is actually the Master’s family was already pretty well off money-wise from the start because they’re related to the Wisconsin Dairy King. At least, I assume so going off what we know when Vlad still became rich even without his ghost powers in “Masters of All Time.”
Apart from that, I could see Maddie and Vlad getting into college on their own merits through a fully paid scholarship given how brilliant they are. Don’t get me wrong, I think Jack’s smart too but I think it’d make more sense personally if his parents paid for his college tuition plus room and board themselves so he could focus on his studies. And yeah good luck with that given Jack’s short attention span lolz! That’s why I can’t really see him focusing long enough to get a scholarship unless Maddie personally helped him through it so they could go to college together.
Speaking of, since Jack and Maddie have so much natural chemistry when we were talking about it on my discord we thought that it’s most likely that they knew each other before they met Vlad and I got the impression he was kinda treated like the 3rd wheel in this episode “Masters of All Time” whenever Jack and Maddie were together. I mean, it makes sense because they are obviously a canon couple but it’s still kinda interesting, especially if it turns out Vlad and Jack only met Maddie in college...
Guess it depends on what route you wanna take story-wise. Because on the one hand, Maddie and Jack could have possibly been childhood/highschool sweethearts that managed to get into the same college where they met Vlad. Or I think they could have possibly met Vlad during their senior year in high school at the earliest and again, Jack and Vlad agreed to be roommates, but it seems more likely they met as Freshmen in college. We just don’t really have any info to go off of!
Going back to my Good Vlad AU, just as a reminder, my version of him realizes pretty early on that he was never in love with Maddie. In this version, Vlad just wanted to impress her since he admires her as a peer in the scientific field. And with Jack it’s pretty much the same as above in that I think Vlad and Jack had a pretty strong friendship with each other at one point and enjoyed performing various ghost experiments and hanging out together. Which reminds me, I do kinda have to wonder how Vlad ended up interested in researching ghosts in the first place.
Like, did Vlad become interested in it because of Jack? Or for canon Vlad was it only because he wanted to get closer to Maddie? Could Vlad have already had a fascination with ghosts long before meeting Danny’s parents? Who knows! But I do think we can all agree there has to be some reason Vlad ended up researching ghosts beyond when he became the first half-ghost himself. In the end, we may never know.
But, there is one thing we do know for sure...
Regardless of how long Jack and Vlad were roommates for or how long either of them have known Maddie, it’s a shame we know pretty much nothing about their friendship in the show or anything about how the three of them met. All we can do is ask ourselves, why they decided to try and make a ghost portal together in the first place? What’s the canon reason why Jack and Maddie didn’t visit Vlad even once while he was in the hospital? And most of all what it was like when the three of them were friends and did more than just research ghosts together?
While there’s no way to know for sure, I do hope I gave you guys something interesting to think about too! Because as far as my Good Vlad AU is concerned, the main premise is that even though they did have to part ways it’s because Vlad didn’t want to hold them back and he needed to sort out his new powers for himself after recovering from his condition which left him hospitalized for years. But since my Vlad WANTED to see his two oldest (possibly only) friends again one day that’s why he invited Jack and Maddie to their 20th college reunion since he was planning on coming clean to them about why he distanced himself too all these years...
However, all that changes when he discovers their son, Danny Fenton, is also half-ghost and decides its better for both of them at least for now to keep that a secret. Still, Vlad’s glad he’s not alone anymore and has someone he can actually help since they have the same “condition.” That almost makes letting Jack and Maddie move on with their lives totally worth it because now that he’s reconnected with his college friends in a positive way...Vlad gets to be an uncle to their children and a mentor to their son and everything has come full circle for them. And most importantly, Vlad can be part of the family and part of his best friend’s lives again...
What more could he possibly want?
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New Deltarune theory video, all about Dess Holiday, and how her fate and whereabouts might tie into a curious line from Spamton’s shop. :o
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Hi, sorry but I wanted to vent a bit about something that bothers me regarding Saeran’s AE message (although it’s not really the message but how a lot of people here interpreted it). I’m a Spanish speaking player (My English is not very good, sorry if it’s not understood in several parts hehe) after finishing Saeran’s After Ending and thinking about his story I understood that forgiving someone doesn’t mean that you want to have a friendly relationship again or something like that with that person who hurt you and that it’s not really mandatory to forgive, if you don’t want to forgive just don’t do it and go on with your life, nobody can judge you for it. That’s fine, you make your decisions and no one should force you to change that decision (Coff V’s After Ending Judge or forgiving Coff coff) The thing is, several players here treated Saeran like a jerk because he forgave all the people who hurt him and applauded Saeyoung for doing the opposite. They said “learn from your brother, Saeran, lol”. That outraged me, why don’t they respect Saeran’s decision like his brother did? Saeyoung never judged him or was upset that he forgave his father, he respects his decision just like Saeran will too, they just want to live happily together in peace. At that time I just wanted to tell them to learn respect like Saeyoung rather.
The game never forced us to forgive Rika, V or the prime minister. It was never about “forgive all those who hurt you because then you will find peace and be happy.” ….
As I have seen in your blog you talk about this topic, you are right that some people are helped by forgiveness while others are not.
Ahh, I’ve also seen others comment that the fact that Saeran forgives everyone “dehumanises” him, “that no one in the world is as good as him to forgive at that level” Ehh… you can’t say that there is absolutely no person in the world who chooses to forgive their abusers. As I said before and you said it too, it’s not like Saeran was “SO GOOD”, it wasn’t like “I forgive them all and I think everyone should give them a chance so we can be friends and live happily ever after, we should all forgive because it’s the best thing to do YEYYYYYYYYYYY”. Throughout the AE I saw Saeran wanting to keep his distance from them, he also told us about his dreams of wanting to live with the people he loves (MC and Saeyoung) he didn’t seem interested in those other people who hurt him, he just wanted to know why they did what they did. Now he just wants to live life as the person he wants to be: a kind and caring person. Although I don’t interpret those words as him forgiving everyone who crosses his path, rather he just wanted to get rid of that hatred he had for a long time but that doesn’t mean that then the feelings of anger go away for everything, those feelings are inherent but now he knows that there are several ways to handle things. He wants to be a better person and now he has the freedom he longed for, he will continue to grow.
Oh, I have to say that I also agree that rather than forgiving his abusers he was forgiving himself for the damage he did to MC and himself so that he could move on.
I’m sorry if that was too long. I was glad to find people like you who understand that forgiveness is a broader thing and that Saeran taking that path doesn’t ruin his character or make him a fool for it.
And most importantly: you decide whether you forgive or not, no one is forcing you to go down the path you don’t want to go down.
And I love your blog ^^
PS: something I’ve also seen a lot of people saying is that Saeran seemed to depend a lot on the MC for everything, which I don’t understand because I see him making his own decisions in the whole AE until the end (I think one of the scenes in the game where that “dependence” is noticeable is when he asks us to go with him to rescue Saeyoung because he feels safer…). Well I didn’t want to let him go alone to a dangerous place with 4 enemies where we can be killed while the RFA is asleep, that doesn’t happen every day xD) but that’s another topic.
Absolutely. I’ve explained the moral of the After Ending many times to people who aren’t quite sure of what it means to choose to forgive and what it means to not forgive. When you forgive somebody, it isn’t an open invitation to have them back in your life. Saeran’s motive in all of this is that he wants to know why the people who hurt him did what they did because he wants those conclusions to move forward in his life. He knows why he did what he did and he’s been trying to make peace with it for a while, but I’m gonna be honest here, even if he’s not saying it—
GE Saeran is holding onto the shame and guilt that Ray and Suit Saeran felt over what they did to you, the player. He hasn’t forgiven himself. By challenging his abusers and those who failed him, he’s trying to make peace with himself and understand himself. He wants to forgive himself, and he thinks, to forgive himself, he needs to say that he forgives those that hurt him. He chooses to let go of his anger to finally be free. Saeran has been angry for so long… he’s tired of being angry.
He wants to let go of anger and be happy forevermore. He’s not saying he forgives the people that hurt him because he wants to be around them. He doesn’t intend to interact with them again. He’s made peace with what he needed and he’s said what he needed to say. Even as Saejoong leaves at the end of the After Ending, you know that he’s saying goodbye forever. Saeran made that pretty clear with him. He hopes that Rika, V, and Saejoong can make peace with themselves and be happy in their own way, but he’s not going to be around to see it happen.
However, Saeran can now forgive himself and move forward, living with you happily and his brother, making sense of his freedom and the happiness he yearns for in his life. The game doesn’t force you to forgive any of them. You can choose to do it and it won’t affect how you play in the end. You have a chance to help Saeran get what he wants emotionally but you aren’t forced to accept apologies or give forgiveness.
A lot of people who have been abused will never forgive those that hurt them… and others will choose forgiveness in their own way. It is up to the victim to decide how they handle this path. Only you get to decide what you want to happen. Nobody should shame you for your choice, no matter what it is. Frankly, nobody should nag Saeyoung for keeping his anger and hatred. He has a right to never forgive that man. I’m much more like Saeyoung, myself. You have a right to never forgive someone. You have a right to hold onto your anger, as long as you aren’t hurting yourself or others.
Saeran isn’t a saint for choosing forgiveness and Saeyoung isn’t a monster for choosing to never forgive. These are things that people will choose to do and they have a right to it.
And don’t even get me started on the whole “Saeran and MC are a toxic co-dependent couple.” There is a reason why V and Rika are the foil to MC and Saeran. V and Rika are the toxic models of what it means to behave a dependency on another person. They are meant to show you what it means if you give up everything for another person, even if destroys you in the process. V gave up on himself for Rika’s safety and Rika feed into V’s devotion to love even though they both understand their love was never something good. It’s a mess and it really exhausts me to have to explain this over and over again.
V and Rika were never good for each other, point-blank. They are the ones that foil Saeran and MC. Saeran isn’t forced by us to do anything and vice-versa (unless it’s a Bad Ending where you make him do it but we’re talking about the Good Ending.) He asks your view and thoughts but he makes his own choices, and he always respects your choice. There’s a huge fucking difference.
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Lizzie’s character at her core is someone who protects others.
She spent the first part of her taking care of Jimmy’s egg and waiting for him to hatch for literally hundreds of years. When she learns that killing the dragon will bring destruction to the realm she’s the only one of the codvengers who tries to save it. She helps her allies whenever they ask. She’s definitely not someone who’s generous with anyone but she will try her hardest to fight on the behalf of those she cares about.
But when have they done the same for her? When has she needed help and reached out? So far whenever she’s had a real problem like the mutations she tries to hide it and solve it on her own. She seems unwilling (perhaps even guilty) to admit that she needs help, even when she wouldn’t hesitate to help a friend in her position.
I really hope she’ll need that help soon. Some kind of big problem that even she knows she can’t solve alone. Or maybe she tries to solve it alone and her allies come help her anyways. She’s a strong person but even she isn’t invincible. She can’t stand alone forever.
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idk quackity threatening to murder sam gets to me. they used to be so close, sam used to consider quackity his son. sam gave him that armour and those tools to keep him safe. and then quackity used their relationship to get into the prison because in his mind that was more important. something about not only biting the hand that feeds you but twisting it behind their back to get what you want
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Do you ever think about how Sasha reacted when she got to Amphibia?
Like, she was immediately tied up and kidnapped by frog soldiers that could have killed her. She wasn't given time to grasp the situation, wonder where her friends were, figure out where she was, etc. Just thrown into chains.
She didn't have a nice farm family to ease her into it, or a king to help her find her friends and let her explore the worlds culture. She was literally a prisoner. The only reason they didn't kill her on the spot was because she was an anomaly that they wanted answers from. They wanted to know if there were more humans, and she knew that.
As far as she knew, the only humans in Amphibia were her best friends, the friends that she knew since they were toddlers, The friends that she needed to protect, the friends that she needed to find. She had no idea where they landed, or if they were even safe. She might've assumed that they were in a similar situation to her. At that time, her main goal was probably "escape and find the girls".
Anne and Marcy were probably one of her biggest motivations to escape. Sasha was locked up in a cell, with nobody but the occasional guard that gave her rotten food, and she exploited the fuck out of that.
She turned on her popular-girl-charm and thrived. She pissed off one of the most feared toads ever for fun. She got multiple guards to quit their own job by only talking to them. She learned their interests, their hobbies, what made them tick, and used it to her advantage. She knew how to get close to them, because thats what she'd do in school.
She got the girl who took Annes snack to give it back, she got the teacher to let them go to the bathroom, etc. Because she was popular. When your popular, you know learn to make small talk, how to be charismatic, you learn how to manipulate.
She thought out her options, her surroundings, and the people, then managed to dig herself up from the fucking grave.
she taught the people how to be better. She taught them breathing exercises, food recipes, optimism, and a lot more. Sasha made herself a crucial weapon to them, and to put her in chains again would be a mistake. She made that fact clear when she defeated a giant blood-thirsty monster with cheerleading. She had more skill with cheerleading than any of the toads in there.
She built a friendship with the soldiers, and taught their leader how to interact. At this point, she could have left, but she saw potential.
She was given a castle,
She was partying,
And she let it go to her head.
Her end goal was always to go home with her best friends, and that never changed. When she was a captive, when she was a soldier, even when she was the bad guy. she wanted to get home.
But that wasn't her priority.
Sasha wanted to have fun first. She didn't care if the girls went home before her, because she had a choice to leave. Earth was an end goal, not her main goal. Sasha wanted to rule over a kingdom, be treated as royalty, to live her fantasy life.
Sasha had the same dream as Marcy, but the difference is that she didn't want it to last forever.
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this scene got to me because on one hand, we have amity being confused and scared about the way her feelings for luz make her act, the way they're something so new and different, and here's another consequence of letting her emotions take the lead, but - just like emira said - this isn't a bad thing, because despite it all luz still makes her happy, happy in a way she wasn't before.
but on the other hand we have luz - luz, who we know already feels so much guilt over things beyond her control, who feels like her arrival on the Boiling Isles made everything worse for everyone (and it hurts because she's so wrong about that). and she probably heard that 'everything's changed since you came here' as just a bad thing, even though that isn't what amity meant. and she's crying but she still smiles and tries to make light of things and admits that hey, she does stupid things around amity too because she's also starting to fall for amity, so on top of everything, there's the weight of her feelings now and I'M JUST -
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Next person who tries to correct my theories or "inform" me about stuff in Undertale by linking me to the wiki is getting their bones stolen. I have literally memorized large chunks of the game and explored multiple character interpretations. The wiki is shit anyways. Proof the wiki is bad for in depth analysis especially in regards to Papyrus:
"DON'T WORRY! Though he enjoys reading advanced books on the mechanics of puzzles and this would typically imply Papyrus is intelligent, he also enjoys children's books and is probably sentimental about his childhood possessions and is therefore a dumbass."
If I'm remembering correctly, HE IS LITERALLY THE ONLY CHARACTER WHO POINTS OUT THE HUMAN IS COVERED IN DUST. Everyone else is like "oh boy your face sure does me a heckin frighten" and not once is the dust mentioned. They should know what it looks like. They should be concerned when SOMEONE IS COVERED IN IT. THAT'S LIKE WALKING AROUND COVERED IN BLOOD. BUT "OBLIVIOUS PAPYRUS" IS THE ONLY PERSON TO MENTION IT? 🤔🤔🤔🤔 (Not the complete text but the most obvious contradictions to the accusation of obliviousness):
I have gone over this before but Sans and Papyrus are BOTH sentries. Papyrus got Sans his job (which the article even admits!) and Undyne says herself that Sans only does enough to not get fired from his sentry job. If you think Papyrus isn't being paid for almost single-handedly maintaining puzzles, doing daily patrols, and turning in DAILY REPORTS you are delusional.
Undyne doesn't want Papyrus to be an Official Guard because she's certain that when they are freed the second war against humanity will start, and she doesn't want to put Papyrus on the front lines. SENTRY DUTY =/= GUARDSMAN STATUS! PAPYRUS CAN BE A SENTRY AND NOT A GUARD MEMBER! JUST LIKE SANS IS! If you honestly think Sans earns more than Papyrus (or that Sans is somehow a Real royal guard despite being Undyne’s #1 underachiever) when Sans is a TERRIBLE employee for Undyne, while Papyrus is basically the mayor of Snowdin and is one of her hardest workers and best friend, then you have a shit opinion of Undyne.
This take is not only a disservice to Papyrus’ character, but also a poor reflection of Undyne’s character. SO ANYWAYS PAPYRUS MAKES MONEY! HE LITERALLY SAYS HE PAYS TAXES! SANS IS NOT THE SOLE PROVIDER AND IF YOU COME INTO MY HOME AND SAY THIS TO ME I WILL FLING YOU INTO THE SUN
I mentioned that I wrote this a year ago (March 29th 2020) because I went to the wikia just now because I want to make sure sources cited aren’t still garbage, and guess what, nothing has changed since I wrote this rant in March of 2020! I used key words from each of my screenshots to find them quicker and GUESS WHAT! THE PAGE CALLS HIM OBLIVIOUS THREE DAMN TIMES
The undertale wiki is garbage don’t link to it on theory posts unless you get up in the morning by jumping out of bed and straight into honking clown shoes, pal.
And, if you do genuinely just want to know more about UT, start with the wiki but recognize that it’s likely inaccurate and then look for primary sources, like let’s plays or screenshots of the game like from the UT encylopedia blog (which I will not tag here because I don’t want to tag them in this very angry post, I feel that would be frightening perhaps fbsdjkgsbdsjkgd)
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[Image Description: an Undertale chat box with the name "PAPYRUS", in all caps and Papyrus font, in its center. On its left is a talksprite of Papyrus sweating anxiously, and on its right is a talksprite of Papyrus wearing sunglasses. End I.D.]
The Great Papyrus is the most popular Undertale character among the fans surveyed here. 19.6% of responders chose him as their favorite. That’s a total of 519 fans! (Wowie!!)
Not all Papyrus fans are unified on his characterization, however. The most obvious divide was between fans who call him a “cinnamon roll” or “precious baby,” and those who find these takes infantilizing. A lot of people like the friendliness and optimism of this character, while others recognize this but highlight his maturity too. Fans who worry about his infantilization seem most concerned with how he can be portrayed as naive or dumb by the fandom. A portion of fans specifically mentioned this naivety as a point in his favor, though the marginally more popular take seems to be that he is not naive, regardless of how he first appears. This fandom divide seems to relate to Papyrus’s autistic or ADHD coding. Many fans relate to him as ADHD and autistic themselves.
Fans also related to him in his desire for friends. Many responders think of him as a friend and a comfort character, so at least in one way his wish has been fulfilled.
The phone calls were a major reason that fans said they felt connected to Papyrus. Thanks to these calls, he has the most dialogue of any character in the game. His humor and dialogue were often highlighted as favorite qualities.
While fans may disagree on some aspects of Papyrus’s personality, it is clear that his fans all value his optimism and kindness. His fans do not see his kindness as weakness. Many talked about the complexity of his character and the strength it took for him to show mercy to the player character, even when the player doesn’t show it in return. He believes in himself, and he believes in you! This kindness and trust has inspired his fans to be kinder themselves.
Papyrus fans were also drawn to his mysteriousness. Several responses pointed out that he is a more mysterious character than Sans, who is also often loved for his mystery. As shown in the phone calls, Papyrus will put on fronts depending on who he is around, making it even more difficult for fans to uncover his secrets. Some people in other sections of the survey found this frustrating, but Papyrus fans tend to see it as another point in his favor.
Among the greatest proportion of responses were from fans who couldn’t choose a favorite trait, or who just love everything about Papyrus. While these responses may be less lengthy, they are still as full of love as the essay-length answers. These responses tended to say phrases like “cool dude” or “Papyrus my beloved” or “THE GREAT PAPYRUS.”
(You were overcome by writing about such a handsome skeleton. He understands.)
Highlights: (under the cut)
Honestly Papyrus just feels like joy. Funny, incredibly kind, with a few mysteries/weird quirks about him that are fun to ponder over. I especially love how he often acts proud and self aggrandizing without putting others down, and in fact sometimes uses that to lift his friends up alongside him. You don't see this take on proud characters often.
Papyrus is strong. Strong in body, but also morally strong. He knows what is right, what it means to be merciful and kind, even in the face of danger or death. Some think him naive. And yet, even facing death and seeing the dust of those he knew, he did not falter or turn from his ideals of mercy and change for the better.
BECAUSE HE IS THE GREAT PAPYRUS
His optimism and his overall personality is endearing! You're always having fun with him :D
He's meeting all of my standards.
Papyrus is very under appreciated, and overlooked, and it's very frustrating to me—he's a complex character but people treat him like he's a baby!!! I like him because he's kind of goofy with how he talks and he's just very charming and kind.
He's weirder than Sans, and it wasn't acknowledged for years because he acts oblivious and dumb, even when he's clearly not. Quite frankly, I find it iconic. Also, his entire personality helps a lot.
I'm ND, trans, and projecting!
OK SO he's just a friendly guy!! A dude who likes cooking for his friends!! We love a hype man!! Also smart as hell and I feel like fanon majorly overlooks this. Making good, fun puzzles is HARD and setting up a flamethrower to go off wirelessly is complicated. Like even if that bridge puzzle didn't go off the components were complicated. Love that cool dude!!!!
I heavily relate to Papyrus as a character and consider him my favorite fictional character of all time. He is a very well-written and thought out character with several quirks and layers in his personality. It is headcanoned by some (myself included) that Papyrus may possibly be on the Autism Spectrum due to his nature, his interactions with others, and overall how he displays himself to the world we see.
I could talk about Papyrus forever, and you have made a grave mistake in allowing me to do so. He is a charming, strong spirited, well intentioned, complex character that is often wildly misinterpreted, and I think originally this is why I was drawn to him. He is presented as one thing and in fact acts as one thing (though not the same way as presented by fandom), and in reality when you look closer than you are meant to he is not, in fact, any of these things. It was intriguing to me. Secondly, and rather contradictorily, another thing that drew me to him is that he is very true to himself, when it comes to idiosyncrasies and moral values. It's true that he does not offer much in the way of personal backstory and feelings, but he offers very much indeed in the way of personality. What a guy! He wears silly crop tops and bright colors, he speaks in a manner specific to him that sometimes doesn't make sense, he cares about something or someone and goes whole hog with it -- he's passionate, damn it! I love him and his weirdo, goofy self with all my heart. He cares about other people to a fault, too. He would sacrifice everything to help someone, and his belief in the potential of both others and himself is indomitable. When faced with the responsibility of a kingdom, his friends gone, his brother lying to him, and himself all alone without a reliable support system, he recognized what he was facing and still bucked up and became determined to get through it. When faced with a murderous, over powerful enemy, someone who had killed many of his friends and fellow monsters, someone who had repeatedly been rude and borderline aggressive and showed no signs of stopping, he saw that they were having difficulty and offered to help and to care for them, and didn't regret his decision or change his opinion on what they needed and their potential for change, even when quite literally killed by them a moment after. Even in death, even directly after a betrayal like that, he never stops believing that they can get better, that anyone can be a good person if they want to be. That's important, I think; that concept of giving people the chances they need to grow and to change. I have a tattoo of that moment on my thigh, it's that important to me. I guess I really like Papyrus because even though he is fictional, watching him out there makes it easy to believe in people, in our inherent goodness and desire to love each other. He makes it easy to see that we can change, that no matter what you've done in the past or who you currently are, no one is inherently a bad person, and no one is incapable of learning how to be a good one. It is just a step by step process that we have to take day by day.
[Image Description: A wordcloud shaped like Papyrus. His gloves, boots, and cape are red; his Battle Body is blue, yellow, and white; and his bones are white. Some of the most visible words are: Kind, Love, Good, Cool, Relate, Funny, Friend, Mystery, and Papyrus. These are the words that responders mentioned most in their essays about him. End I.D.]
Read the full list of responses shared with permission by clicking this link! (The document is 25 pages long, so you may want to make a copy to prevent lagging.)
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Phil’s reaction to Michael
If you missed it, in Phil’s latest stream Tubbo and Ranboo introduce him and Fundy to Michael, their adopted son. If you aren’t following Tubbo or Ranboo’s storylines you may have missed that they recently got canonically married and the zombie piglin baby they rescued from the nether on Valentine’s Day is now being recognized as their son (originally was meant to be a pet).
Phil and Tubbo have had a bad relationship starting during the Butcher Army when Tubbo tried to execute Techno for his part in destroying L’Manberg the first time. Phil, being close to Techno, took his side despite being a citizen and ultimately joined Techno in Doomsday and then moved with him to their snow commune. Since then Tubbo’s been on bad terms with both of them, and they haven’t interacted since.
This is the first (arguably?) canon interaction we’ve seen between them since that day, and it’s clear even Phil is a bit on the fence. He makes it clear at one point on the way to Snowchester that he hasn’t forgotten, and doesn’t even want to get into everything Tubbo’s done, but for the most part they were able to converse amicably. I wouldn’t doubt Ranboo’s presence made a big difference there, and Phil knowing that Ranboo is close to Tubbo now will make it harder for him to hold onto negative feelings.
They introduce Phil to Michael and at first he just doesn’t know what to say. Which is... valid. I mean 2 teenagers taking in a zombie pigman child and raising it as their own? What do you even say to that? He gives them vague compliments and laughs a bit at the ridiculousness of the situation.
And then... he starts to question their parenting. He asks why they’re keeping him cooped up, hidden from the world. He, along with Fundy, argue with them about their parenting tactics and question their capability. He even jokingly puts Michael in danger, when Fundy was killed by Tubbo for something he said and Fundy threatened to hurt Michael if he came back and stuff was missing. Phil put all of Fundy’s items in a chest except for his armor and weapons and waited to see it play out. Luckily Fundy realized Phil had them and got them back, but if Fundy hadn’t waited to hear it out Michael could’ve died. Tubbo chastises Phil for being dangerous, and Phil laughs and says Wilbur turned out fine. And then he’s reminded of his son, and how he actually turned out, becomes somber and he sees himself out.
This is arguably one of the first instances we’ve really seen Phil talk about Wilbur and take responsibility for what part he had in how Wilbur turned out to be. His mood changes immediately when he realizes what he was saying and he leaves the house, and ends up accidentally drowning Ghost Squeeks because he set off a creeper that blew up some ice and got Squeeks trapped under. He mutters to himself that everything he touches dies, and then he leaves Snowchester.
I think this is such a interesting character moment that a lot of people might miss because it happens unexpectedly and is like 4 hours into a 5 hour stream. But it’s important to Phil’s character, if only because we’re finally seeing some regret from him in how he raised Wilbur, what his parenting or lack thereof did to someone who was once as little and innocent as Michael is now. I think seeing Michael, happy and waddling around his nursery filled C!Phil with regret and perhaps even envy, because Tubbo and Ranboo have the chance to do it right, and he knows that even if they make mistakes they’ll probably do a better job than he feels he ever did.
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Alignments explained through DSMP characters:
Lawful Good: Tubbo
"Tommy. I am so, so sorry. Dream, I have come to the decision that will be best for the nation, the most logical thing to do. For Tommy to be exiled from L’Manburg."
Seeking the best outcome possible, even if it doesn't feel so warm and fuzzy.
Neutral Good: Captain Puffy
"It's time to finish the symphony... even if its a whole different song."
A classic hero archetype, here to help.
Chaotic Good: Tommyinnit
"Wilbur, look at me, look at me. Please don't do this, you don't have to blow this all up...Wilbur, this is our home and we can take it back, man. We're not the villains.”
Heart of gold shines through in every action.
Lawful Neutral: Awesamdude
"My job is not to keep the visitors alive, as awful as that sounds. It's to keep the prisoner locked up, and I did do that."
Rules to live by, a code to follow.
True Neutral: Fundy
"You're always pranking me...you've always been there for me.! Every single time!..except sometimes!...when I needed you the most..!"
Internal, amoral motivations, such as a desire for love and belonging.
Chaotic Neutral: Quackity
"I know how to handle myself...I know what to do on the inside. Just give me a few minutes with him...and that's all."
The ends justify the means, no matter what has to be done.
Lawful Evil: Schlatt
"Well... That was pretty easy. [...] Y'know what I said, the day I got unbanned from the Dream SMP? And the day I said I was running? An election that I won, by the way. I said things are gonna change. I looked every citizen of L'Manberg in the eyes and I said 'You listen to me. This place will be a lot different tomorrow.' Let's start making it happen."
Atrocities committed within an orderly framework.
Neutral Evil: Wilbur Soot (Pogtopia Era)
"Look, our nation's gone. Our nation's far behind us, Tommy. Let's blow that motherfucker to smithereens. Let's blow the whole thing up! I say, if we can't have Manberg, then NO ONE - NO ONE CAN HAVE MANBERG!"
A proud villain who will cross any moral line.
Chaotic Evil: Dream
"Tommy... I've never been on your team." "I DIDN'T CARE ABOUT YOU, I wasn't your friend. I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING!" "In the end, chaos wins."
The cruelty is the point.
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say what you will, Etho immediately folding to Scar’s demands that he sign the contract under threat of taking back the life he gave Bdubs was the most endearing thing I’ve seen from Etho in at least a while
there wasn’t even a moments hesitation. As soon as Scar brought Bdubs into the situation, Etho was all “I’ll sign it, I’ll sign it, I’ll sign it!” while Bdubs literally hid behind him. He shouldn’t have had to sign a contract as Bdubs was the one who received the life and he had already signed a contract, but Etho didn’t want to risk anything happening and gave in anyways.
this proves that one analysis post I saw floating around earlier. Bdubs is straight up a weakness of Etho’s.
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How would GE and SE Saeran shows their jealousy?
GE Saeran is only human and he does have moments of jealousy. He’s not very irritated or anything when he feels like he wants more of your attention, really. All he does is interlock your fingers together and pull you in for a hug. He’ll kiss your cheeks and murmur his love until you return the favor. He’s a simple man when it comes to what he wants so you really don’t need to worry about him making a scene or anything. You just need to remember to kiss his cheek when he looks to be in need of a smooch and comment.
SE Saeran is more sardonic and crass when it comes to how he shows what’s on his mind. He’s not going to growl or hiss at anyone but he does make a point of wrapping an arm around your waist and shooting a glare at anyone who gets too close to you. He doesn’t care for that. He would prefer if people didn’t get so close to you but he can’t stop that from happening... you’re the one good thing in his life and he doesn’t want to lose you... he just can’t find a way to say that to your face directly.
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c!dream's tale is not a tale glamorizing his obsession but a cautionary tale that reminds us tragedy almost always starts with obsession
like yes he started off as a person. that's the point. he still is a person. he's a person who made horrific decisions because he was blinded by his obsession with other people's attachments and what they meant for him and the people around them. because he was right: attachments are powerful, and they are at their core one of the things that leave us human. and then he proceeded to forget that they are what makes us whole, and isolated himself, and tried to pry his way into the most private parts of other people's hearts so that he could hold it above their head and watch them dance.
he starts off as a guy that we can laugh with, who could be our friend or our neighbor or somebody we know, cripples himself, sets himself up for failure, and then he falls. hard. to where he's alone, to where he's reviled, to where he's distrusted because of his obsession.
it's not meant to be pretty. it's not really meant to be subtle, either. it's a fucking warning: don't try to take what's not yours. don't throw away what you have, or you'll end up with quite literally nothing.
it's an ugly, ugly tragedy.
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ik we talk a lot about fanon interpretation but it literally blows my mind how most of the fandom seems to see dreamxd. i see posts about him and it's literally like oh haha can't believe god is a gogy simp. when that's? a ridiculously small part of his character???
did we all miss the part where dreamxd was meeting george in his dreams, creating all sorts of hallucinations to make him question reality? and torturing the dream versions of his friends, displaying an incredibly fucked up sense of morality and humor while still being weirdly attached to him???
the takeaway here should not be that he's whipped for george but that the god of this world is by no means a benevolent one
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The thing that makes c!Tommy such a dynamic character is that he constantly subverts expectations.
Like, from his standoffish nature and constant insults and brash attitude, you'd think he's just an asshole who thinks he's hot shit and doesn't care about others, but then his whole story is built around being loyal and self sacrificing, and he's characterised by being incredibly sentimental, and you get these moments where he's speaking softly to someone, and when he's vehemently defending his friends, and it's that duality of 'he cares so goddamn much but at the same time struggles with getting attached and showing that care".
And from the way he fits the hero role and is always at the forefront of conflict and recklessly throws himself into danger to protect others, you'd think he'd be the typical protagonist who's very openly selfless and moral and wholesome, and is doing all of that because he wants to heroically better the world, but no, he's actually just a kid who gets unfairly targeted, and he's tired and worn, and he isn't even the moral paragon of the story, and he'd much rather just live a normal life and vibe with his friends, but just because he and his family and home are constantly threatened and he refuses to give in, he has no other option than to be molded into that role.
And from his reckless attitude and carelessness and love for mischief, you'd think he'd be destructive and more prone to tear down rather than build, but no, he wants to build, he repeatedly refuses to destroy and tear down and give up on things, he wants to keep working and preserving and help the environment around him flourish, not burn, it's just that, with being raised fighting as he was, he's still waiting for his hands to loose their calluses.
And from his relentless humor and loud voice and egotistical jokes and boundless optimism, you'd think he has it all together, that he loves himself, that he knows himself, that he's confident and assured and will always get back up again without struggle, that he's the furthest thing from vulnerable. But then you see all that he has gone through, and how quickly he slipped through the cracks and into self destructive tendencies when left alone, and how he's adressed himself as just a problem, or the cause of them, and how utterly conflicted he can get about his feelings and relationships and wants, how he outrighted admitted he doesn't know who he is by himself, and it becomes incredibly apparent: this boy is the furthest thing from okay.
And from his tendency to use simplistic words and slang, his strange monologues and metaphors, his suttering rambles and general supposed innocence and ignorance, he gives off the impression of being uneducated or confused, of being less aware than other characters, immature, when in actuality, he can be pretty observant, and is often very aware of the reality of the situation, the dynamics at play, more so than many other characters, and can be quite attentive to others' motivations and priorities, and can have clever plans, and is more aware of his own feelings than people often give him credit for... he's smart. It's just that, he has so many thoughts and feelings in his brain, that get only more tangled up as the trauma keeps building, that he can get stuck in his own head and struggle with expressing himself. He might not speak in theatrics, in clear speeches and well formulated explanations, but that doesn't make his thoughts any less abundant or important, and his way of speaking is no less valid or meaningful - it is simply different.
Like... he's just, full of contradictions, except they're not contradictions, they make sense. They make sense because he's three dimensional, he's complex, and he simply refuses to be broken into any simplistic, easy to summarise box - he will break out of it. He will break those walls, and he will continue to try to thrive and exist as a fully fledged out, ever evolving person.
And I just think that's so freaking cool.
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One of the things that gets me about "Padme couldn't tell the Council about Anakin's actions on Tatooine because they wouldn't have understood his attachment to his mother as a good thing" is like.
What. What kind of an excuse is valid for baby murder.
Please tell me what the council was supposed to understand about the baby murder.
If someone up and slaughtered some preschoolers IRL--which has happened!--are you going to be one of those "Well, he was mentally ill" people or are you going to point out that this person shouldn't have access to deadly weapons in the first place and needs to face either prison time or an extraordinary amount of counseling before being allowed to interact with society sans supervision again?
Exploring Padme's understanding of the Tuskens as subsentient because she's not from Tatooine and doesn't realize they're people in part because she's a little space racist is a thing I can get behind, but "Padme recognizes they're people and all, but she takes Anakin's side because the Council would be too harsh" is like. How harsh is too harsh when someone's killing kids.
Like "he really loved his mom" is not an excuse that should fly in real life! He killed children! "They wouldn't understand" I WOULDN'T WANT THEM TO UNDERSTAND THE POV LABELED "BABY MURDERER"
I love Anakin I really do but some of the 'logic' I see about justifying Padme's actions post-massacre is just. What. I understand Anakin refusing to confess, and I even understand Padme not snitching, but her actions were inherently selfish and I feel like people try to justify it to a point that's not really sensible.
I feel like I need a tag for Tusken Massacre discourse, holy shit I just keep having feelings about the absolute clusterfuck this plot point represents.
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Character development is Wilhelm going from hesitant kisser..
to full blown aggressive make out master by just accepting his love for Simon
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I don't know if anyone else felt like this, but when Sylvie killed Kang, to me it felt... anticlimactic almost? It felt hollow. Empty. It bothered me at first until I thought more about it and realized it was supposed to feel that way. It was supposed to be unsatisfying, unfulfilling, and disappointing.
The way Loki and Sylvie reacted to Kang's speech about killing him and starting another multiversal war was very telling to both of them as characters and what we've learned of them through the show. Sylvie did not trust Kang one bit. And Kang was right when he said, to an extent, she didn't trust Loki either. She doesn't trust anyone but herself because her life experiences have taught her that it's safer that way. Loki, on the other hand, knew it was possible Kang was lying, but believed that he wasn't because Loki has been in Kang's position. Lying and manipulating to get what he wants. To get the throne, to keep the power. And he can tell that Kang isn't doing that.
Sylvie doesn't trust Kang. He's lying, he's stealing free will, he's acting like a God. He needs to be stopped. He needs to die. Loki agrees that what Kang is doing is wrong and he needs to be stopped, but maybe they are going about this all the wrong way. They need to take a minute and think this through.
But Sylvie isn't listening. Kang is stealing free will. He's ruining lives. He needs to die, it's for the best of the universe. Loki is saying no, but what if it's not? If what Kang is saying is true then by killing him, Sylvie and Loki could be making things much worse for the entire multiverse.
The problem? In that moment, Sylvie does not care about the multiverse.
Before Loki, Sylvie has never had the chance to care about anyone except herself. She's been on her own for years. Because of this she has been blinded by her, at it's heart, selfish drive to get revenge on Kang for all the shit she'd been through in her life. Kang stole her free will. Kang ruined her life. In that moment she is thinking about herself and her own pain. The cause of all her pain is right in front of her and she can finally get her revenge. She's trying to reason and justify the decision to kill him regardless of his warning by saying she's protecting free will, but that's not what's really driving her.
Loki, on the other hand, knows what it's like to care about other people. Frigga, Thor, Asgard, Mobius, even Sylvie - people who will be effected if they kill Kang and just carelessly unleash the wrath of his variants and the multiverse. And we've seen this - before Lamentis-1, Sylvie didn't care that the Hunters she killed were variants too - they still needed to die as a means to an end. Loki is the one who says "wait, if the Hunters are variants then they need to know so we can help them." Because he's thinking about Mobius. He's thinking about other people, not just what he wants. (That's why, when Sylvie accuses Kang of being a monster for killing innocent timelines as a means to an end, he said "grow up, hypocrite. We've all done terrible, horrendous things to get here. We're all villains.")
Sylvie wants to kill Kang because this is what she's been running towards her whole life. This is all she has. Getting revenge on the cause of her pain and suffering. She says it's for the good of the universe, but really this moment is for her. Loki is saying "this might be what you want, but that doesn't mean this is what is best for everyone. We have to think this through." But she doesn't care.
Instead, she sees the care and affection Loki has for her and in that moment, she uses it as a means to an end. She may genuinely care for him, but in that moment, she kisses him as a distraction. She uses his affection for her to her advantage to get him out of her way. Because she only knows how to think about herself and what she wants.
But when she does finally kill Kang... it's not this big, triumphant hero moment. It's cold. It's empty. There's no heroic music playing. There's no celebration to be had. It's just... silent. Outside, the timeline is cracking, thunder is rolling. He's dead, it's over. She looks around and falls to her knees, she breaks down. She's done it. The thing she's been fighting for for years. She's gotten revenge on the person who ruined her life. But now what? She's alone. She achieved her goal, but she pushed away the one person who ever cared about her to do it. This should feel good, we should feel excited. Instead, we feel dread. This should feel good, but in that moment it feels like we did something wrong.
She killed Kang and freed the multiverse... but at what cost?
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