#classical languages

[lingthusiasm]

Lingthusiasm Episode 88: No such thing as the oldest language

It's easy to find claims that certain languages are old or even the oldest, but which one is actually true? Fortunately, there's an easy (though unsatisfying) answer: none of them! Like how humans are all descended from other humans, even though some of us may have longer or shorter family trees found in written records, all human languages are shaped by contact with other languages. We don't even know whether the oldest language(s) was/were spoken or signed, or even whether there was a singular common ancestor language or several.

In this episode, your hosts Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne get enthusiastic about what people mean when we talk about a language as being old. We talk about how classifying languages as old or classical is often a political or cultural decision, how the materials that are used to write a language influence whether it gets preserved (from clay to bark), and how people talk about creoles and signed languages in terms of oldness and newness. And finally, how a language doesn't need to be justified in terms of its age for whether it's interesting or worthy of respect.

Read the transcript here.

Here are the links mentioned in the episode:

Lingthusiasm episode 'Tracing languages back before recorded history'

'My Big Fat Greek Wedding- Give me any word and I show you the Greek root' on YouTube

Glottolog entry for 'classical'

Wikipedia entry for 'Complaint tablet to Ea-nāṣir'

Wikipedia entry for 'Bath curse tablets'

Wikipedia entry for 'Cuneiform'

Wikipedia entry for 'Mesopotamian writing systems'

Wikipedia entry for 'Home Sign'

Lingthusiasm episode 'Villages, gifs, and children: Researching signed languages in real-world contexts with Lynn Hou'

Wikipedia entry for 'Al-Sayyid Bedouin Sign Language'

Wikipedia entry for 'Kata Kolok' (also known as Benkala Sign Language)

True Biz by Sara Nović on Goodreads

Gretchen's thread about reading True Biz

You can listen to this episode via Lingthusiasm.com, Soundcloud, RSS, Apple Podcasts/iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also download an mp3 via the Soundcloud page for offline listening.

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Lingthusiasm is on Bluesky, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Mastodon, and Tumblr. Email us at contact [at] lingthusiasm [dot] com

Gretchen is on Bluesky as @GretchenMcC and blogs at All Things Linguistic.

Lauren is on Bluesky as @superlinguo and blogs at Superlinguo.

Lingthusiasm is created by Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne. Our senior producer is Claire Gawne, our production editor is Sarah Dopierala, our production assistant is Martha Tsutsui Billins, and our editorial assistant is Jon Kruk. Our music is ‘Ancient City’ by The Triangles.

This episode of Lingthusiasm is made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike license (CC 4.0 BY-NC-SA).

#linguistics #language #lingthusiasm #episodes #podcast #podcasts #episode 88 #language history #oldest language #classical languages #ancient languages #sign language #home sign #cuneiform #writing technology #writing systems #SoundCloud

[thearchaicsmile]

Ancient Greek Word of the Day

τύχη | tyche (from τυγχάνω, "happen, come to pass") — fate, chance, fortune, success [or lack thereof]; the act of a god or other force that is beyond human control

#wotd #word of the day #ancient greek word of the day #ancient greece #ancient greek #classics #classical languages

[octoberhorse]

I love how, whether intentionally or not, some aspects of DMC Vergil are reminiscent of the poet Vergil. Vergil is “the storm that is approaching.” In the Aeneid, storms are an important plot device. In both book 1 and 4, there’s the idea of the “magno misceri murmure,” the sea/sky starting “to mix with a great roar” in what is obviously a storm. These storms precede important events, namely Neptune’s rebuke of the winds and Aeneas and Dido entering the cave. Moreover, as Urizen Vergil’s goal is to feed the Qlippoth Tree human blood to produce an apple, essentially acting as a sort of grim farmer. The poet Vergil wrote the Georgics, a sort of ode to farming. It’s fitting, then, that the character sharing his name also embodies these elements of his works.

#all DMC Vergil needs now is BEES #latin language #classics #vergil #vergil dmc #dmc5 #Georgics #vergil’s aeneid #the aeneid #bury the light #ancient rome #roman literature #roman poetry #classical latin #classical languages

[squid-with-five-eyes]

Not Strong Enough by boygenius translated into Latin!

Foramen atrum in culina

Horologia aberrant

Meliorare energia solum posset

Nescio ob causam sum

Modo quo sum

Non fortis tantum ut tui vir 

Conatus sum

Non possum sistere flabbelo

Torqueoque de rebus non occuratis

Spirans in exque

Aurigantes per ancram

Canentes “Flent Non”

Videsne nos ex via descobinari?

Nescio ob causam sum

Modo quo sum

Non fortis tantum ut tui vir 

Mentita sum

Affligo sole nunc spes tui

Animae dimidia alteram confundens

Coniveo arte

Semper angelus, deus numquam

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Nescio ob causam sum modo quo sum

Aliquis in procella est

Experior revelationes

Excitans sede antice, cassa paene 

De via antica erra nostri ique domum

Domum i sola

#latin #latin langblr #latin language #boygenius #phoebe bridgers #lucy dacus #julien baker #classical languages #translation

[zenosanalytic]

Random Musings

So I just saw This Pyropes Fanart(It's Gr8: Plz Look at It) and, for whatever reason, THIS was the time that, thinking about them, it occurred to me that there's something Really Interesting going on with their names like:

We know that Terezi, at least, claimed Redglare as an ancestor, and Latula sees her as an alternate version of herself, and they're obviously all "related" in some sense as their culture defines it because 1)they all have the same symbol and 2)they all have the same type of lusus. But Terezi and Latula have "Classical" names and Redglare has a "English" one(And HALF of the Ancestors do, now that I think about it: Dualscar, Mindfang, Highblood, Redglare, Handmaid, Darkleer).

I don't really know what to do with this other than to point out that:

canonically by the time of Karkat and his crew this "English" linguistic tradition seems to have been excised from Troll society, and

with the exception of the Condesce it seems to have been a middle- and upper-class thing? Like: all of the "lowblood" ancestors have latin-derived titles(we never learn their names) and the "English" naming starts at Teal.

Which is interesting cuz I've typically headcanoned "Classical" elements in Troll to be historically upper-class and the "Vulgar/English" elements to be historically low ala our own society, but this naming thing seems to suggest it might be the other way around(of course there could have ALSO just been, like, an era where having "land-dweller" names was fashionable)? So when the trolls say something partially "Vulgar" like thermal hull instead of the wholly "Classical" Refrigerator, they're trying to be Fancy???

#Homestuck #The Pyropes #Homestuck Trolls #Troll Names #Classical Languages #Vulgar Languages #Homestuck Analysis #Homestuck Headcanons #Troll Language #zA Analysis

[ihavedonenothingright]

Lord, what is it with people who claim to like classics, but hate classical languages? Specifically, but not exclusively, people who treat the reconstruction of classical languages as a worthless endeavor. Ignoring the fact that language as a spoken medium is integral to any culture, how is that not in the least bit cool to you? Why don't you want to know what Latin and Ancient Greek and Old Persian might have sounded like? You don't want to reconstruct an accurate picture of the classical world? You don't want to figure out how it all intersected?

I'm not even touching on the debate of whether these languages should be taught conversationally, or solely taught to be read (though personally, I'm in the camp of, "you will learn to sight read better if you also learn to speak.") I've encountered an outright hostility toward the idea of learning these languages from people otherwise interested in classics, and it baffles me. People studying classics at a university level who think Latin and Greek are a waste of time, and theoretical pronunciation, vernacular reconstruction, etc. are all pointless. Who claim this attitude was actually fostered by their professors.

I am um. Well. Angy.

#rant #people get so downright grumpy at the idea of learning new languages in general but they get downright hostile abt classical ones #this is directed at the upperclassmen who told me their profs said learning conversational latin was a waste #like dude idk what to tell you. the grafitti in pompeii isn't formal writing #you do have to learn the chill stuff #classroom-only latin doesn't even give you the ability to read ACTUAL INSCRIPTIONS #also my personal experience with professors has been like #“oh wait i've been pronouncing this word like modern greek. theoretical classical pronunciation is this instead. thought you should know.” #most classical works were written to be read aloud #they were written TO BE SPOKEN #agh anyway dex out #classics #classical languages

[femalefemur]

reading cicero like

#yes i will call him by his praenomen #i think it's funny to do so #cicero #latin #classics memes #classical languages #i'm so sleep deprived #i dont know why i made this but the thought of it made me laugh so

[jayjtheunsispiciousmelodicathem]

Whoo boy learning ancient greek is gonna be a fun one

I've been learning Latin for about four years now, so this is going to be very interesting.

#greek #ancient greek #linguistics #language learning #langblr #classical languages #I can already see similarities in the grammar

[tryingtostudyblr]

10.05.22

Hello friends! Today's been up and down but overall much better, I got an email to confirm I can read as part of the Herodotus marathon on 1st June too!

Today I:

Memorised the new section of my French IRP presentation

Did more research for my IRP

Learned some verse vocab for Latin

Read more of Medea in English and made notes on characterisation

I hope you're all doing well and exam seasons are going well if you're going through them or preparing atm :)

Currently stuck in my head: End of Spring - Onewe

#studyblr #langblr #am i a studyblr? #classics #studyspo #lawyerd #greek #latin #study notes #french #Irp #classical languages #Classical Greek #Medea #tryingtostudyblr

[little-bloodied-angel]

Guys, if anyone please knows someone who knows Latin and could help me translate something, it's just two sentences, I'm kinda desperate and would be grateful for any help

Signal boost if you don't know anyone

#me #personal #my writing #help #latin #classical languages #classics

[eastern-lights]

Studying Ancient Greek be like

#languages #classical languages #greek #ancient greek #linguistics #gotta love my textbook

[thearchaicsmile]

Ancient Greek Word of the Day

γένεσις | genesis (from γίγνομαι, "come into being") — beginning, origin, birth; the act of creation; a living creature or sentient being

#wotd #word of the day #ancient greek word of the day #ancient greece #ancient greek #classics #classical languages #ever wonder why the first book of the bible is the book of genesis?

[biggest-gaudiest-patronuses]

the fact that shakespeare was a playwright is sometimes so funny to me. just the concept of the "greatest writer of the English language" being a random 450-year-old entertainer, a 16th cent pop cultural sensation (thanks in large part to puns & dirty jokes & verbiage & a long-running appeal to commoners). and his work was made to be watched not read, but in the classroom teachers just hand us his scripts and say "that's literature"

just...imagine it's 2450 A.D. and English Lit students are regularly going into 100k debt writing postdoc theses on The Simpsons screenplays. the original animation hasn't even been preserved, it's literally just scripts and the occasional SDH subtitles.txt. they've been republished more times than the Bible

#due to the Great Data Decay academics write viciously argumentative articles on which episodes aired in what order #at conferences professors have known to engage in physically violent altercations whilst debating the air date number of household viewers #90% of the couch gags have been lost and there is a billion dollar trade in counterfeit “lost copies” #serious note: i'll be honest i always assumed it was english imperialism that made shakespeare so inescapable in the 19th/20th cent #like his writing should have become obscure at the same level of his contemporaries #but british imperialists needed an ENGLISH LANGUAGE (and BRITISH) writer to venerate #and shakespeare wrote so many damn things that there was a humongous body of work just sitting there waiting to be culturally exploited... #i know it didn't happen like this but i imagine a English Parliament House Committee Member For The Education Of The Masses or something #cartoonishly stumbling over a dusty cobwebbed crate labelled the Complete Works of Shakespeare #and going 'Eureka! this shall make excellent propoganda for fabricating a national identity in a time of great social unrest. #it will be a cornerstone of our elitist educational institutions for centuries to come! long live our decaying empire!' #'what good fortune that this used to be accessible and entertaining to mainstream illiterate audience members... #..but now we can strip that away and make it a difficult & alienating foundation of a Classical Education! just like the latin language :)' #anyway maybe there's no such thing as the 'greatest writer of x language' in ANY language? #maybe there are just different styles and yes levels of expertise and skill but also a high degree of subjectivity #and variance in the way that we as individuals and members of different cultures/time periods experience any work of media #and that's okay! and should be acknowledged!!! and allow us to give ourselves permission to broaden our horizons #and explore the stories of marginalized/underappreciated creators #instead of worshiping the List of Top 10 Best (aka Most Famous) Whatevers Of All Time/A Certain Time Period #anyways things are famous for a reason and that reason has little to do with innate “value” #and much more to do with how it plays into the interests of powerful institutions motivated to influence our shared cultural narratives #so i'm not saying 'stop teaching shakespeare'. but like...maybe classrooms should stop using it as busy work that (by accident or designs) #happens to alienate a large number of students who could otherwise be engaging critically with works that feel more relevant to their world #(by merit of not being 4 centuries old or lacking necessary historical context or requiring untaught translation skills) #and yeah...MAYBE our educational institutions could spend less time/money on shakespeare critical analysis and more on... #...any of thousands of underfunded areas of literary research i literally (pun!) don't know where to begin #oh and p.s. the modern publishing world is in shambles and it would be neat if schoolwork could include modern works? #beautiful complicated socially relevant works of literature are published every year. it's not just the 'classics' that have value #and actually modern publications are probably an easier way for students to learn the basics. since lesson plans don't have to include the #important historical/cultural context many teens need for 20+ year old media (which is older than their entire lived experience fyi)

[squid-with-five-eyes]

I, Carrion (Icarian)... IN LATIN!!!!

translated one of my favorite songs off unreal unearth into latin for a project, the full translation is under the cut! credit to @buzzkillgirls for suggesting the song. my emphasis here was on making the translated lyrics fit the original meter more or less (which it does if you pronounce w elision) over exact one to one translation. ive got some notes at the end talking abt some of the choices i made! please feel free to ask me anything abt this and maybe suggest changes to the mistakes i inevitably made!

Si vertit ventus et ventum accedo

Tellus iter inveniat bruteum mihi

Gravitas mea est factus humiliter

Permeavi finem volatus

Pneuma una a caelo

Perveneram altam perrariorem

Pondus omnum onus oblatus nobis mundo est

Etsi adolesco, qui possum cado

Cum ego tollor verbis omnis tui

Si aliquis possum cadere umquam

Mundus mecum cadit

Causas me fluitare quam penna in mare

Cum sis gravis quam mundus

Quem tu manibus substas

Meditavi quodam die de fundamento

Video diu, amor o, caelum totum tenebas

Relinque, eo soli

Si necesse est, cara, innite mihi

Fluitabimus, sin cademus

Oro sole, non cade mecum

Habeo non pinnas, non habebo

Volans insuper mundum quem portas

Si alta cassum causant

Tum sim tui

Occidendus Icarus

Si vertit ventus et ventum accedo

Tellus iter inveniat bruteum mihi

Si cado illo die

Oro sole, non cade mecum

notes:

“Si vertit ventus et ventum accedo” bit of chiasmus here

“Tellus iter inveniate bruteum mihi” hyperbaton; no specific poetic reasoning other than i liked the flow of the line this way

“Gravitas mea est factus humiliter” "my weight has been made low" the specific word choice here ties into the song's theme of his love allowing him to let go of societal pressures, as gravitas means both weight and grandeur/importance, while humiliter is low, small, humble, obscure

“Meditavi quodam die de fundamento/Video diu, amor o, caelum totum tenebas” glosses as “one day i pondered about the foundation/i see, love, you were holding the entire sky for a long time” i really wanted to find an equivalent to “you all the way down” in roman cosmology i could use but nothing was super snappy

“Relinque, eo soli” instead of sky-bound, im saying “i go to the sun” as a more direct reference to icarus

“Habeo non pinnas, non habebo” so so proud of the parallel chiasmus structure here! when i wrote this i was mentally high fiving myself

“Si alta cassum causant” cassum is glossed as fall, but also plight, fate, calamity, disaster

“Occidendus Icarus” THERE IS NO WAY TO TRANSLATE THIS LYRIC SATISFACTORILY OH MY GOD YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW IMPOSSIBLE IT IS TO GET EVEN CLOSE TO THE ORIGINAL ENGLISH LYRIC'S WORDPLAY AND IMPACT AND MEANING. COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE. ultimately decided to go in the direction of using the unique features of Latin to create a new artistic choice instead of trying to translate the untranslatable. used a gerundive to express a sense of helplessness and fate; “Icarus who must be brought down/killed”

#hozier #unreal unearth #i carrion (icarian) #latin #latin language #latin langblr #classics #classical languages #classics student #classics major

[maekar76]

Classical Greek Prepositions

#classics #Classical Greek #Prepositions #Greek #classical languages #Attic Greek

[prokopetz]

In the native dialect of Lesbos, Sappho's name is spelled "Psappho". I sometimes picture what it would have been like if that had been the spelling modern English had gone with. Imagine being psapphic.

#history #language #linguistics #word nerdery #orthography #classics #ancient greece #sappho #wlw