#cr speculation

[inconmess]

I've been building up this post for quite a while so I think everything in this post is kinda out of order and looks like a bit of a big word vomit... So sorry in advance. Also since it is kinda longer than I realise, I am putting it under the cut. And I am open to any discussion.

(Personally think I may have gotten a few things wrong and if so, please correct me?)

I think the thing about Orym and grief is... A part of him has never let himself grieve his loss properly. He has accepted that they are dead and will never come back, yes. He makes it a point to live up to them everyday, yes. But acceptance is not the same as grief, it is a part of it but not the same.

And this was an interesting discussion I was having with my friends and I feel that it strikes so true here, is the fact that you remember the worst moments of your life more vividly than the happiest moments because in your happy moments, you don't question what happened to you as much as you question your worst moments in life.

And Orym has lived with that question for six years. Now, the same could be said to Ashton and Imogen and Fearne and the rest of the Bells Hells really but as pointed out in this post by @caeslxys. (a really good pot btw) Even though the others have had their questions as to why a particular bad incident happened, Orym has had the shortest time to actually cope with it while for the others, it has been years at this point and maybe they have sort of come to peace with most of their shit before it came back to hit them in their face. And for some, it just hit them recently.

And for Orym the question of "Why?" resurfaces again and again the more he seeks out answers and when he does get the answer... I don't think anyone would really love to learn that the two most important people in their lives were dead because "it was just collateral damage. They didn't really have to die but they did." Not when you were having a happy, peaceful life. They signed up for this, yes. But it is also not fair to have your whole life cut short just because a big shot wants to test a theory.

And I am not trying to say that Orym bringing up his losses every time they have a discussion about the Vanguard is right or wrong because he has every right to and may be wrong at the same time because he is biased. Because at this point, he is very biased.

Apart from what I mentioned above, Orym watched Otohan kill his husband and father. He fought Otohan again and this time lost his life, Fearne and Laudna. He fights Otohan again and nearly loses Keyleth. Fights Otohan again a fourth time and knows that there would've been more losses if FCG hadn't sacrificed themselves. Not to forget Otohan killing Eshteross, something I think Orym internally blames himself for because she read his mind for the information. And even if Otohan is now dead, the loss stays.

I also think that seeing Will when he died had more of a personal impact than he realised because I know while seeing the dead person can sometimes bring some comfort, at the same time, when you are trying to live up to them, trying to answer questions that are just beyond you when you really haven't had the chance to completely grieve and accept, the grief possibly just hits you more.

SO while the Hells have had their personal losses with the Vanguard and Otohan, I think Orym has had the longest beef with the group among them all. He didn't know about the Vanguard 6 years ago, yes. He discovered their name along with the rest of the Hells. But loss wise, Orym was the first of the lot to suffer due to the Vanguard.

This is not me trying to put an exact scale or measurement of the loss cuz it is intangible and stuff. But he's been dealing with it for 6 years. Maybe not for harbouring revenge, but the resentment hasn't completely gone but rather festered the more he seeked answers. So he is going to be extra jaded.

But not to forget the fact that up until Bordor, he did try to see the Vanguard's point too, still kinda does (the locket he took from a Vanguard member as a reminder) but I think by the time of Bordor's betrayal, he's had too many losses with the Vanguard to actually care of their point of view because all he's seen of their group is innocent people getting killed or almost killed for no reason at all.

Bordor's beef as a person from the Vanguard had been against Laudna, Orym and Ashton but he still nearly killed Prism and would've probably marked it off as collateral if she'd died. Dropping off the locket with Bordor doesn't mean that he left all his empathy but at the same time, like he mentions, they are at war. And war doesn't really discriminate amongst people. It just takes.

Like he said to Imogen, I think he still tries to believe the Vanguard can have some people who are good and not all of them are evil but all he's know from the Vanguard at this point is loss and Liliana's blind faith towards Ludinus or Predathos doesn't help.

So back to the recent episode.

Do I think that it is wrong for Orym to bring up to Liliana about his dead family as an answer to her response. No. Do I think it was a wrong time to bring it up? Maybe. Because Liliana was not being confrontational but Orym was turning confrontational the more the discussion happened.

But the thing about Orym saying it to her face is that... It is one thing to know that there have been deaths and even if Liliana didn't directly cause it, she was a part of the group that did and brush it off as collateral damage. And no one does a census or survey post the "collateral damage" on how it affects the other person because now, they have what they want to there is no use to go back there.

And Orym is kinda like that mirror which is like... "SO you had a loss because of the gods and now are going around leaving collateral damage you want to fix stuff? Guess what? Your collateral damage was my life that you just uprooted just like the gods/god people did yours, so are you really any different from the people you hate and the change you want to bring about?" (which is kinda the parallel between Orym and Bordor I find really interesting because this is a cycle that is never ending at the end of the day)

And did Orym need that outlet? Hells yeah. GIVE THAT MAN A HUG!

#long post #critical role #critical role spoilers #orym of the air ashari #the downsides of being a psych student #you analyse the shit out of stuff #at least I do #messy thots #cr speculation #orym needs a hug #Also have 3 continuous exams so if I am going to edit (and later on hate on how I have worded this post...) it will be after 3 days. #character analysis

[featherlesswings]

Saw a video today that looked like more clickbait about the supposed downfall of Critical Role, and I thought it was going to be like, “and in conclusion, that major character death was planned, actually, as a publicity stunt because Bells Hells aren’t as popular as Mighty Nein and Vox Machina were.”

BUT it was actually, “hey, so you can’t measure their current Twitch stream views against the numbers they made before they split the stream between Twitch and YouTube, nor can you measure it against their views during Covid, because duh, Covid. Plus with it being pre recorded, there’s less of a reason to catch the livestream, when you can just wait and watch the VOD. They’re fine, don’t listen to clickbait weirdos.”

I was pleasantly surprised.

#critical role #cr spoilers #cr speculation #critical role spoilers #cr campaign 3 #cr3e91 #youtube bullshit #clickbait

[fjorests-of-wildemount]

Hey so.

Remember when, during Calamity, Loquatius got left behind when the Seelie Queen called everyone home and sealed the Feywild entrances?

And Ludinus was consuming Fey creatures because they were Similar to what he is?

And Ludinus started going into the Feywild frequently within memory, possibly, maybe, following Artagan's Door?

And the Unseelie Court is VERY involved in Ruidus and the Vanguard?

What if Ludinus isn't an elf . . . What if Ludinus is Unseelie? Trapped in Exandria during the Calamity?

#cr spoilers #critical role #bells hells #c3 e85 #ludinus da'leth #cr speculation

[jinxknight]

On October 15 2015, Vox Machina travelled to Whitesone and found eight bodies hung on the Sun Tree as a message.

And on October 13 2022, almost seven years later, the Bell's Hells will fight Delilah Briarwood in Whitestone for the soul of one of those bodies to bring her back to life.

We've come full circle.

#critical role #cr spoilers #vox machina #bell’s hells #c3e36 #cr3 #cr speculation

[definitionofacritter]

Ashton and Fearne.

Ruled and ruined and reborn through chaos.

Fated to bear the weight of the might of the emperor and empress of the primordial titans.

Chaos incarnate.

#cr spoilers #critical role #fearne calloway #ashton greymoore #cr meta #i feel sick i feel ill i feel unhinged #cr speculation #LISTEN IDK IF FEARNE WILL BE THE ONE. HOWEVER. THE DOTS ARE CONNECTING #this ain't even a shipping thing (tho it can be)

[dumpster-fire-sapphic-failgirl]

okay, so we all know that Imogen’s “suck my soul” was a bit unhinged

but what if it wasn’t like a devotion thing or a teach-laudna-not-to-do-that thing

imagine, if you will, Laudna sucking in a bit of imogen’s soul. just delicately reaching for the tiniest bit possible

and then Imogen, once that particular tether has been established, grabs on to it and dives whole ass in with her entire soul

and in whatever dark metaphorical corner Delilah Briarwood is hiding in lights up with jagged reddish purple sparks

“I already told you once, Delilah Brairwood. I. Will. Sunder. You.”

#critical role #critical role spoilers #cr spoilers #laudna #imodna #imogen temult #bells hells #delilah briarwood #cr speculation #imogen is basically jean grey #and she has only gotten more powerful #while D is having to recover

[somewhatsentientspellbook]

There's something juicy about Laudna correcting herself when talking to Delilah

"The ones I love - the one I love"

Codependency? Did she correct herself because she's continuing to prioritise Imogen over everyone else in the party?

Self-hatred? Did she correct herself because she doesn't think Bells Hells (sans Imogen) reciprocate her love - so why bother trying?

Possessiveness? Did she correct herself because she thinks she's the only one left who truly loves Imogen?

#i could also be overthinking it - that's a very real possibility for someone like me #but idk it's just interesting #critical role #critical role spoilers #cr spoilers #bells hells #imogen temult #cr laudna #imodna #delilah briarwood #cr meta #cr speculation

[masterqwertster]

I've always played with Ashton being a bit more elemental than the average genasi due to the dunamancy brain and the Luxon being the supposed progenitor of the primordial titans. But now we know Ashton is titan blooded, has been titan blooded ever since their Shift to genasi.

So now I'm wondering:

Did the dunamancy stick because of the titan blood?

The Luxon originally split itself to help the titans reach enlightenment. Wouldn’t it be eager to embrace this dying little titan to bring them into the reincarnation cycle it was trying to establish?

And there's more than one way to not get along. Like, a child wanting to cuddle a squirmy puppy. The child wants to impart affection and love, the puppy would like to go chase the squirrel. They’re not exactly "getting along," but it can certainly get there.

#MQ blathers #critical role #ashton greymoore #cr speculation #cr meta #the luxon

[gorgynei]

The Somnovem and Predathos Theory

Can we talk about Predathos and the Somnovem? I've been dying to talk about Predathos and the Somnovem. There's something here, I smell it.

Theory under the cut, its a doozy.

First of all, "Factorum Malleus" (translates to Creator Hammer) and "Malleus Keys" (translates to Hammer Keys). Aeor and Predathos have a concrete, canonical connection. Ludinus went deep into the Genesis Ward, found the Factorum Malleus project, and developed it further into the Keys to release Predathos. It's unclear whether Aeor also wanted to release Predathos, or if they were just trying to use part of its power to create god-killing weapons, but regardless, Aeor knew about Predathos. Thats a big deal and it explains why the entire pantheon held a ceasefire during the Calamity to completely wipe them out.

Knowing that Aeor has a connection to Predathos makes their fanatical Cognouza ward more suspicious. It's possible that the Somnovem were actually worshiping/serving Predathos but all record of it's existence was wiped with Aeor's falling, so we never knew.

When the Nein first learned about Cognouza, it was due to a psychic wave put out by Vokodo in his final moments, flashing them all into Vokodo's memories. This is similar to the flash that Imogen put out when she gave into Ruidus's power in e33-e34, even down to Bell's Hells being forced into their own memories. While not concrete, the shared usage of emotion-driven psychic waves and memories is notable.

The Somnovem believed in the power of the mortal mind and imagination. In other words, they believed that a brain could manifest psychic power, and they were right: Imogen Temult is living proof of that. They share in the ideas of the power of the mind, even down to the Somnovem communicating telepathically and in dreams.

The Somnovem, or at least members of it, also share many sentiments with the Ruby Vanguard. The Ruby Vanguard wants to release Predathos in order to destroy the pantheon, release mortals from fate, and embrace freedom in that. Ira, upon meeting the Nein, says "Creation is born from destruction, and if all that is worthy of us is destroyed, then so much more can be created or forgotten. All the Gods and the fates that threw us to torment and death, they all will pay" (c2e137) which mirrors that idea extremely closely. Timorei says "You know the terror of the end, mortal ones. The nothing, the acceptance of fate or even oblivion. We-- we cannot end. No, at all costs, oblivion must be destroyed" (c2e137), once again bringing up the idea of disrupting fate and the natural order of things. It's possible that what was originally interpreted as the Somnovem being split on whether to bring Cognouza into the world could have actually been a much larger debate on whether to bring Predathos into the world and destroy pantheon, at least in part.

When Cognouza was transported into the astral sea, it was harassed by a "terrible psychic storm" that drove them mad. Psychic storms haunt all of campaign 3. There's the red storms on the surface of Ruidus and Imogen's dreams, both intimately connected to Predathos and to the power of the mind. Cognouza could have targeted by a powerful psychic wave directly from Predathos, which would explain the strange mind-melded state they end up in and the madness that permeates the entire city and anyone who gets too close.

Additionally, Ruidus flared in 836 PD. Cognouza was also destroyed in 836 PD. It's impossible to know if these are completely connected or pure coincidence, but if Cognouza was a long-running Predathos plot, it's destruction would likely warrant an outburst from the moon.

While delving in Aeor, Lucien discovers a mural depicting "a ring of nine red ovals, with a dazzling starburst in the middle, and that decorated with a single open eye. Enlightenment" (from the Nine eyes of Lucien). Every other symbol of the Somnovem has been just nine red eyes. This "starburst" in the middle could be a subtle nod to Predathos, especially with the way it seems the nine ovals are inferior to this one, greater eye. Lucien seems to believe this represents enlightenment, and he's probably correct. The Aeorians are famously non-religious, so fanatical devotion to a god-killer and it's ideals may have still only looked like extreme belief in a particular school of thought, rather than worship to a particular entity.

There's the obvious too: the nine eyes being red. Red can mean a lot of things. There are plenty of red things in Critical Role that are totally unrelated to Predathos and Ruidus. But when red is the primary colour and representation of unchecked alien energy, and a strange fanatical city with possible connection to that energy is also red? It stops being so chance. Not a big thing on its own, but worth mentioning.

When Cognouza was destroyed, Kingsley felt the "strange black chains that invisibly wove through that city" break and heard an "angry, unknowable, primal, ancient cry". It's widely assumed that this is Tharizdun due to the chain-imagery and general madness that the city is connected to, and I do think that's likely, but if Tharizdun is actually somehow connected to Predathos (both of them are alien beings that got locked away, after all), it could be both of them.

*gestures wildly at all of this* do you see?? do you SEE???? There's something. There's something here.

#btw if you're curious about how i know that malleus keys translates to hammer keys: malleus is a small bone in your ear that's also #known as the hammer (bc its shaped like a hammer) and factotum is a word meaning ''someone who does everything'' so #factorum -> creator and malleus -> hammer #cr spoilers #critical role #cr speculation #cr theory #critical role theory #predathos #somnovem #cognouza #aeor #mighty nein #bells hells #bell's hells

[wizard-hubris]

Okay but what if - BUT WHAT IF - (and please note that I say this in a kicking-my-feet-twirling-my-hair-kind of way and not as too serious speculation) the next M9 reunion is gonna be a heist style visit to Xhorhas to break Essek out of trouble? What then??

(Like...we don't know how long Trent had time to fuck around and actually spread the word if he intended for that to be more than a threat...yeah he expected Caleb in the evening but also he was an incredibly powerful wizard. If Caleb can pop around all across the continent so can he, probably)

(But also please the amount of plotbunnies all the different possibilities are giving me........)

(Also also I know Matt's final words were probably meant to nod to Bells Hells but do they mean we're gonna get more M9 involvement in the solstice aftermath? As NPCs or otherwise? Because pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease I misses these assholes so much <3 )

(Edit: NO BUT WHAT IF THE NEXT M9 REUNION IS THE WEDDING????? JESTER CAN'T HAVE A WEDDING WITHOUT HER JESTIE THERE!! ALSO PLEASE WE NEED ANOTHER WEDDING ONESHOT)

#critical role #critical role london #cr spoilers #critical role spoilers #cr speculation #(kind of but not like serious serious) #mighty nein #mighty nein reunion #mighty nein echoes of the solstice #essek thelyss #fjorester #sorry for everbody who might go ???? at that tag combination bc of blocked tags or such #it's several thoughts

[cassafrasscr]

Okay but imagine if Sam's new character is FCG.

NOT Fresh Cut Grass - a DIFFERENT Aeormaton who also happens to be a Faithful Caregiver model.

Maybe they go to Aeor to investigate the tech Ludinus has been gathering and run into them there. A different person with a different personality and voice. Wearing the same face as their fallen friend.

The angst potential is so juicy. 🤔

#critical role spoilers #cr spoilers #cr3e92 #c3e92 #cr3 #critical role #fresh cut grass #fcg #cr speculation

[inconmess]

I thought about typing this out multiple times but forgot each time so after thinking about it the 20th time today, a very small part of me wants to believe that Dorian didn't reply because there is a possibility that Robbie could reply to that message personally instead of Matt doing it for him... You know, like the other episode where Matt had him record a response?

But that is just a tiny part of me trying to justify Dorian not replying to a delay instead of considering the fact that he didn't actually receive the message (not possible as Caleb did get it and I refuse to believe Dorian is dead), the lake monster meddling with Orym's receiving of it or Dorian being actually asleep when the message was sent. Or preoccupied. That too. Who knows?

But man I died when Orym asked Imogen on why Dorian didn't respond to the sending. Poor man, please give him a hug 🥺🥺🥺🥺

#messy thots #critical role #critical role spoilers #cr spoilers #orym of the air ashari #dorian storm #cr speculation #Couldn't help it #intrusive thoughts

[tadfools]

Taliesin walking back to the table from the green room when he hears that half of Bell’s Hells is going through the Savalirwood

#caduceus clay #let’s manifest this girlies #critrole #critical role #taliesin jaffe #cr3e55 #cr speculation

[faltermoth]

I think we’re witnessing CR history right now; the group is genuinely considering pursuing resurrection outside of the party’s means. With Vax, his god reached out to him to brung him back as a temporary avatar. For Mollymauk, the M9 didnt have the connections or access to any resurrection spells at the time of his death, the situation they were in made it impossible. And every other character death had been successfully resurrected by party means.

But this is a very different situation - they have Jiana, they have Keyleth, they have the DeRolos in whitestone, they have Eshteross - they have a solid network of powerful entities, and its super interesting to think about how they might quest to bring her back, and what might be owed if their pursuits come to fruition.

#critical role #cr c3e34 #cr spoilers #cr speculation #laudna #dnd #very very interesting….

[definitionofacritter]

Some more tweets from Matt following this week's episode:

All important and good to hear. That second to last tweet instills dread and hope and comfort. Dread that Liam and Ashley (and Marisha?) would choose to pursue another character. Hope that they won't, because Ashley was just talking about how much she loves Fearne, and Liam has been waiting so long for Orym, and Marisha is loving Laudna and Lady D.

Most of all: comfort that, even if they get an obvious retcon, it's at the request of the player and prioritizing their "home game" experience rather than the audience.

Trust the process. Breathe through it. We will make it through.

(Bonus: this is the only clear theory tweet in Matt's likes and, seeing how it was a comparison I made last night and it's the only one like this in his likes, I am eyeing it suspiciously—)

#critical role #matt mercer #bells hells #orym of the air ashari #fearne calloway #cr spoilers #cr speculation #trust the process trust the dm trust the experience

[mehoymalloy]

Here's my opinion that nobody asked for (but mostly just a factual recap) on the end of c3ep90, specifically regarding one Liliana Temult. I saw a teeny bit of speculation of Otohan potentially being the source of 'Did she know?' based on the accent Matt used, so of course I had to go back and listen to the scene a few times to check.

Obviously Matt left us on a cliffhanger for a reason, so very few statements can be made conclusively. The main one being: we know the scream was from Liliana.

From Fearne's persepctive (timestamp: 4.21.00):

Right as Fearne finds Ashton and FCG, the red energy around her (and simultaneously around Imogen, Matt notes) starts to brighten, and, "through both of your minds, you hear this high pitched scream, this earth-shattering scream of fury and horror, and then with that, the scream is gone."

When Laura asks if she recognizes the voice, Matt says, "Maybe. You've heard a lot of screams in your days." Laura asks if she can hear it even with the circlet on and Matt retcons a lttle, saying, "You felt it. It wasn't in your mind directly, but you felt it."

Just as Team Explosion start moving again, the music hall explodes: "this blast of bright energy with like a pinkish tone. You see the top of a shell-shaped building explode, and chunks of it fly out and stop and float in space. Immediately you see, like a bullet out of a gun, this singular lavender streak of power and energy that enters and kind of lifts and floats in the sky."

We then immediately cut to Team Infiltration.

From Imogen's perspective (timestamp: 4.29.58):

She sees the music hall explode from the balcony they are using to exit the tower ("Catching up," Matt clarifies). Matt says, "and you immediately know the source of the scream you heard earlier," confirming to Laura that it was Liliana.

Team Infiltration repel down from the balcony and keep moving. Matt then says, "You see that purple flame flickering in the air, and in both of your heads, you just hear, 'Did she know?'"

The cast all assume it is Liliana voicing the question (and that she now hates Imogen lol).

-

Ok now getting into opinion rather than fact:

To me this reads as the scream, the explosion, and the question all happening in quick succession, which implies Liliana is the source of all three.

As an aside: I adore that Imogen's immediate reaction is relief that Liliana is alive (she gasps, stares with wide eyes, and puts her hand over her chest). Imogen reaches out for Laudna with one hand, and Laudna even reassures, "I knew- I knew she was gonna be alright."

Considering the scream is of "fury and horror," specifically, I really lean toward the Ruidusborn Liliana had been gathering all being severely injured or killed during the assassination attempt. Seeing a bunch of young people you claim to protect grievously or fatally wounded would certainly be enough to trigger another exaltation, in my mind (though again, we don't know for certain Liliana exalted, it just reads that way to me); it would also explain why she just blew the roof off and flew directly into the air—if there was no one left to fight or protect. And I truly do think Liliana does care for the younger Vanguard recruits, based on what she says to Imogen in their dream conversation:

LAURA Mama, I want you to leave him. There's a fight coming. I don't want to fight you. MATT "Imogen, there are children here–" LAURA I know. MATT –"like you, that rely on me." LAURA Can't we just make sure he never wakes up? Put him to sleep. Get rid of Ludinus and keep him asleep. MATT "I don't know if that would just be delaying the inevitable. Being so close to this, I feel like I can guide this the best way it can be. I'm surrounded by some very dangerous people, but they need me, I can feel it, and they listen to me. I'm scared of what would happen if I wasn't here. What would happen to these children? These people?"

This is why I interpret that furious "Did she know?" as referring to those that were caught in the crossfire of the assassination attempt as collateral damage, not necessarily the attempt on Liliana's life specifically. Again, we don't truly know what went down there and who all survived, but I lean toward Liliana being the one of the few (or hell, maybe even the only one) to come out mostly unscathed based on the "fury and horror" tone of that scream.

That's not to say she wasn't also just straight up pissed that her daughter was seemingly complicit in an attack on her life lol because I'm sure she was, but like, it's layered. If anything, she'll tie her fury to the kids as this justified and righteous sort of anger, just to make herself feel better (ie less guilty about her own hand in leading all these recruits to their possible deaths).

And I really should not have to say this, but this post is not me defending or justifying Liliana's behavior or actions. I simply adore messy, deeply flawed characters. And I find it infinitely more fun to dig into their heads and attempt to view things from their perspective than to simply say "they're awful, I hate them."

Because yeah, they are awful and I do sort of hate them, but that's what makes them interesting to me. They're fictional characters—morality and even overall likability have no bearing here. All that matters is what gives my brain the zoomies, and for me, that's deeply fucked up antagonists and villains and their fucked up logic.

#critical role #cr3 #liliana temult #c3ep90 #cr spoilers #critical role spoilers #cr speculation #malloy sometimes speaks