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zhuzhubii2 days ago
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roubao: thanks! what a pretty set-up! but my god!!! what language is that translated publication in? why have i not yet received any advance copies for oversees publications!! i thought none of them had been printed yet! could it be that the jjwxc agency would go so far as not sending advance copies to me?
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roubao (1): thank you! because i go through the third party agent jjwxc, the website does not let me and the publishing houses communicate directly, but jjwxc ought to have a responsibility to send me advance copies, but they didn鈥檛 send them, and didn鈥檛 tell me my books had already been issued, right now i鈥檓 at a loss for words with this website.
roubao (2): i鈥檒l go right away to ask jjwxc, i鈥檓 at a loss for words with this website.........unexpectedly through twitter, when i was talking to my reader friends from other countries, only then did i find out the progress of publications in other languages. my god......
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roubao: thank you, now i know! i have to go ask them! thank you so much!
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......its a low bar, but i hope they have at least been paying her, and its just been mixed in with payment for vip chapters......
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hunnibee262 months ago
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References and Allusions to Male Same-Sex Relations in Chinese Literature
I am tired at this point of reading and watching Danmei/Dangai and be exposed to the same 鈥渃ut sleeve鈥 reference to allude to male same-sex attraction and relationships.
Don鈥檛 get me wrong, I thank the creative team and the writers for finding such a unique (?) way of bypassing censorship but there are so many more literary and historical references that they could use to allude to same-sex attraction. I鈥檓 kinda over the same old 鈥淐ut Sleeve鈥 reference. 馃槚
Here are some of the most popular allusions used by writers in Chinese literature to reference male same-sex desire.
The Four Male Love Icons of Chinese Literature
I鈥檓 pretty sure that, if you are into Chinese history, folk, literature, etc, you have heard of the four beauties of ancient and imperial China. You have the four most beautiful Chinese women and the four most handsome Chinese men.
The same thing is true for the tradition of male same-sex love. Those are:
Mizi Xia (褰屽瓙鐟) and Duke Ling of Wey (琛涢潏鍏)
Lord Longyang (榫嶉櫧鍚) and King Anxi of Wei (榄忓畨鍍栫帇锛
Prince Zixi, Lord of 脠 (閯傚悰瀛愮殭), and the Yue man (瓒婁汉)
Emperor Ai of Han (婕㈠搥甯) and Dong Xian (钁h尝)
Other literary allusions include:
Pan Zhang (娼樼珷) and Wang Zhongxian (鐜嬩徊鍏)
Lord Chan of Anling (瀹夐櫟鍚) and King Xuan of Chu (妤氬鐜嬶級
Hu Tian Bao (鑳″ぉ淇) as Tu鈥檈r Shen (鍏斿厭绁)
The four revered bottoms of Chinese literature and history are:
Mizi Xia (褰屽瓙鐟)
Longyang (榫嶉櫧鍚)
Dong Xian (钁h尝)
Chan (绾), Lord of Anling (瀹夐櫟鍚)
If you ever come across a poem or prose that mentions any of those names to refer to a male beauty, just know that it鈥檚 an allusion to their stories. They were considered the peak of bottom literary reference.
The Passion of the Half-Eaten Peach (椁樻鐧) 馃崙
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Art above credit: Felix d鈥橢on (@FelixdEon on Twitter)
The story of Mizi Xia and Duke Ling of Wey (534-493 BCE) takes place in the Zhou dynasty in the state of Wey (not to be confused with the other Wei). It was recorded by Han Fei (闊撻潪) in the legalist classic Han Fei Zi (闊撻潪瀛). The story goes as follows:
Squire Mi gained favor with Duke Ling of Wey due to his beauty. There is a law in the land that states only the duke himself can ride in the duke鈥檚 carriage and that, if someone else dares to do the same, they will have their feet cut off. When squire Mi learned that his mother was sick, he took the ruler鈥檚 carriage and rushed to visit her. The duke, far from reprimanding him, praised Mi鈥檚 filial piety and his willingness to risk his feet be cut off to visit his sick mother. On another occasion, Mi and the ruler were strolling through an orchard. He got a hold of a peach, started eating it, and, upon noticing how sweet and delicious it was, he stopped eating and gave the other half to duke Ling. He praised Mi鈥檚 attention and lack of regard for his own appetite in order to please his ruler. When Mi鈥檚 looks started to wane, the duke鈥檚 love did the same. Then, the squire was accused of a crime and the duke stated it was not surprising since he had broken the law before to ride in the ruler鈥檚 carriage and disrespected him by giving him a half-eaten peach to eat.
Han Fei recorded this story as a cautionary tale of what happens when one depends on the fickle nature of their lord for favor rather than one鈥檚 own merits. One day, you are praised and, the other, you are labeled a criminal and beheaded. From this story, we get 鈥渢he passion of the shared peach (鍒嗘鐧)鈥 and 鈥渢he passion of the half-eaten peach (椁樻鐧)鈥 allusions to male homosexuality.
The Passion of Longyang (榫嶉櫧鐧) 馃悹
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The next story comes from the Annals of the Warring States, Zhan Guo Ce (鎴板湅绛), in the section of the 鈥淪trategies of Wei鈥, Wei Ce (榄忕瓥). There is not one author signaled out as the sole writer and it鈥檚 theorized that the annals were written by multiple people. This Zhou dynasty story goes as follows:
Lord Longyang and the King Anxi of Wei went fishing on the ruler鈥檚 boat. The favorite, at first, was delighted at catching so many fish in a row. However, after he caught a big one, he started to sob and lament. The king asked his favorite why he was crying to which Longyang expressed sadness at the realization that, upon catching the latest fish, due to its incredible size and desirability, he wanted to throw away the previous ones he had caught. Longyang further confessed that he was afraid that the ruler would one day grow tired of him upon learning of other beauties and would discard him away in the same manner he had planned to do with the previous fish he caught before. With an air of resolution, the king Anxi declared that anyone who mentioned other beauties in his presence would be executed along with his entire family/clan.
This dramatic story serves as a way to illustrate how male favorites in ancient China that obtained favor at court and, with it, enormous privilege, would try to hold on to those positions as much as possible. From this story, is where we get the 鈥淧assion of Longyang (榫嶉櫧鐧)鈥 and 鈥渁 better catch鈥 allusions that are included in poems regarding male love. The former, most notably, in one of the Emperor Jianwen of Liang鈥檚 (姊佺啊鏂囧笣) love poems to his favorite.
Song of the Yue Botman (瓒婁汉姝) 馃幎
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The following is an extremely interesting story. The earliest text translated into Chinese from a foreign language that we know of comes from 鈥淪ong of the Yue Boatman鈥 (瓒婁汉姝). It is a poem of unknown authorship and origin that details the pleasure the singer feels at having met the prince (Lord of 脠) for the first time. What makes it special is that it鈥檚 the only written account we have of the Yue language spoken by the Yue people who are an ethnic group who lived to the South of the Yangtze River. The song isn鈥檛 written using the Yue language itself, instead, compiler Liu Xiang (鍔夊悜) in his book, Garden of Stories (瑾嫅), used Chinese characters to write down the sound of the words. In Garden of Stories, in the section, 鈥淰irtuous Speech鈥 (鍠勮), Liu Xiang details the story of official Zhuang Xin (鑾婅緵) and Lord Xiang Cheng of Chu (妤氳鎴愬悰). The story goes as follows:
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Soon after being enfeoffed (being given land), Lord Xiang Cheng visited his lands decked out in precious garments and sporting a jade sword. Upon arriving at a river, his attendant asked whether there was someone who could help Lord Xiang Cheng cross the river. Official Zhuang Xin, who grew enamored with the sight of his lord in finery, stepped forward and said he was willing to help in exchange for the lord to let him hold his hand. Xiang Cheng was speechless and disgruntled due to the lack of propriety the lower official showed by asking to touch the hand of a man much higher in rank. However, Zhuang Xin asked his lord whether he had heard of the story of the Lord of 脠 and his boatman.
Here is when the author introduces a story within a story.
Lord of 脠 was traveling in his barge when he heard one of his boatmen sing in a foreign language. Intrigued by this, he asked one of his servants to fetch an interpreter. After hearing the translation of the song, the lord grew endeared towards the boatman, hugged him, and covered him in his embroidered quilt (had sex). Once the tale was over, the official Zhuang Xin asked his lord how could it be possible that he thinks he sits higher than the Lord of 脠 enough to refuse a humble official his hand when the Lord of 脠, who is a prince, had 鈥渆mbraced鈥 (had sex) a low boatman.
Although the English word used is boatman, due to the Chinese language not being gendered, the gender of the boatman is not explicitly mentioned. Although the character 浜 can be used to refer to a man, its principal meaning is person or people. Therefore, 瓒婁汉 is more closely translated as Yue person/people. As such, there have been scholars who believe that the song is most likely sung by a woman and not a man. I don鈥檛 agree with this interpretation, however, for multiple reasons.
The first is the context. Liu Xiang added the song, which was written centuries before he was born, to his chapter on eloquent speeches as a tool the official Zhuang Xin used to convince his lord to let him hold his hand. Zhuang Xin found Xiang Cheng attractive and wished to physically express that attraction. Thus, he used the song and the story of Lord of 脠 as a precedent to convince his lord that a low ranking man could take the initiative to begin physical contact with another of much higher rank. If Liu Xiang didn鈥檛 perceive the boatman to be male and his relationship to the Lord of 脠 to closely mirror that of Zhuang Xin and Xiang Cheng, then he wouldn鈥檛 have included it in the first place.
The second reason why I don鈥檛 think that the Yue boatman was a woman is because Chinese scholars who read the tale back in its original form and with the same historical and lexical sensibilities, considered the boatman to be a man. Multiple Chinese writers included references to the 鈥淪ong of the Yue Boatman鈥 story with Lord 脠 in their own writings to explicitly symbolize male love such as Ming dynasty scholar Feng Menglong (棣あ榫) in his History of Love (鎯呭彶) anthology, Emperor Jianwen of Liang鈥檚 poem to his favorite catamite (瀛岀), Liang dynasty poet Liu Zun (鍔夐伒), and influential Qing dynasty poet Yuan Mei (琚佹灇). They have all used fragments of the story such as the expression 鈥渆mbroidered quilt鈥 in conjunction to Lord of 脠鈥檚 name as well as other male-love allusions in their poems. This indicates that Chinese scholars themselves, even those who lived closer in time with Liu Xiang, interpreted the tale and the boatman to be symbols of male love. From this story we get the 鈥渆mbroidered quilt鈥 expression, Lord of 脠, and his boat as male love allusions.
The Passion of the Cut Sleeve (鏂疯涔嬬櫀)鉁傦笍
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The next story was featured in History of the Former Han (婕㈡浉), also knows as The Book of Han, by Ban Gu (鐝浐) in Volume XI, 鈥淎nnals of Emperor Ai鈥 (鍝甯濈磤). Dong Xian鈥檚 autobiography and the story are written on the section dedicated to favored courtiers.
Emperor Ai of Han favored greatly a minor official by the name of Dong Xian and they often slept together. One afternoon, after waking up from a nap, the emperor noticed that one of his sleeves was caught under the head of Dong Xian who kept sleeping beside him. Rather than disturbing his lover鈥檚 sleep, the emperor decided to cut off his sleeve. From this story we get the terms, 鈥渃ut-sleeve (鏂疯)鈥 and 鈥渢he passion of the cut-sleeve (鏂疯涔嬬櫀)鈥
That鈥檚 it, that鈥檚 the story. Compared to the others, I don鈥檛 understand why it鈥檚 so iconic and well-known, probably because Dong Xian鈥檚 biography as a male favorite was much more detailed than others contained in the book.
Mount Luofu Joint Burial (缇呮诞灞卞悎钁) 鉀
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This tale originates from the Three Kingdoms and Six Dynasties period in Chinese history and was recorded in a compilation titled Anthology of Tales From Records of the Taiping Era (澶钩寤h) by Song dynasty scholar Li Fang (鏉庢槈). The tale goes as follows:
A beautiful and poised scholar by the name of Pan Zhang drew the attention and admiration of others, not only due to his bearing but also due to his talent as a teacher and writer. Wang Zhongxian of the state of Chu came to know of the scholar鈥檚 reputation and requested to become his student and learn together. Upon meeting for the first time, they fell in love at first sight. Afterwards, they decided to live together in the same home where they shared the same sheets and pillow while being intimate with each other. They grew so close to one another that people would say they loved each other as much as husband and wife. After they died, the townsfolk buried them together at Mount Luofu (缇呮诞灞). On the peak, there grew a tree soon after with green leaves and long branches that embraced each other. Considering this a miracle, the townsfolk started to call the tale the 鈥淪hared Pillow Tree鈥.
Such a wonderful and happy story between teacher and student! One of the few ones with a happy ending and overall positive feelings in Chinese literature. It reminds me of an alternate reality 2ha where Meatbun doesn鈥檛 rip out our hearts. Also, many of these stories of male love either take place in Wei or Chu; interesting鈥rom this tale, we get the 鈥渟hared pillow tree鈥 reference.
The Yellow Springs (榛冩硥) 馃敟
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Another story that comes from the Annals of the Warring States and takes place in the state of Chu (again) is the one of Prince Chan or Tan (澹), Lord of Anling, and King Xuan of Chu. This specific account is mentioned in the section of 鈥淪trategies of Chu鈥, Chu Ce (妤氱瓥), and goes as follows:
Prince Chan or Tan, was favored by King Xuan of Chu. However, as he grew older, he became increasingly worried that he may lose favor once the physical signs of aging started to show. In an attempt to establish a deeper connection with his king, he consulted with the ruler鈥檚 advisor, Jiang Yi (姹熶箼). The older man told him that his position in Chu was precarious because he had no family members in the state, nor had arisen at court due to talent. Instead, he received a high salary and others were made to bow before him when he walked past simply because he received the king鈥檚 favor. However, the position of a favorite, just as that of a concubine, was never assured. Jiang Yi proceeded to advise Prince Chan that what he needed to do was to say that he would follow the king to the afterlife. Essentially, to claim that he would sacrifice himself for the ruler. Three years passed and Chan had yet to do what Jiang Yi told him because the opportunity to say something like that had not yet arrived. One day, the king went hunting. Upon shooting an arrow at a great distance that landed in an ox鈥檚 head, the king, pleased with his accomplishment, asked who could possibly share his joy 10,000 years and 1,000 autumns from then. Seizing the opportunity Chan answered that he was willing to go to the afterlife (榛冩硥) and sacrifice himself for his king. As a result he was promoted and given the lands of Anling. From that day on, the people of Chu held him in great esteem.
The story features, both a cautionary tale and a lesson on the importance of listening to advice and waiting for the right opportunity to seize the moment. From this story we get 鈥淎nling鈥 as term used to allude to same sex love but also to symbolize devotion, self-sacrifice and loyalty.
Rabbit God (鍏斿厭绁)馃悋
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Another story that originates on the south of China is that of Hu Tianbao, also known as the Rabbit God (or deity). The tale where he鈥檚 featured and that gave rise to his legend was compiled by influential Qing dynasty writer and scholar Yuan Mei in his collection of supernatural stories titled What the Master Would Not Discuss (瀛愪笉瑾). Despite it being compiled and published in 1788, the tale has its origins as part of Fujian Province (绂忓缓鐪)鈥榮 oral tradition. It goes as follows:
During the Qing dynasty, there lived a handsome provincial official in Fujian. A lowly soldier, by the name of Hu Tianbao, became instantly attracted to him. He followed the official wherever he went, even to other districts. After a while of being stalked, the official grew increasingly worried but dismissed it. While the official went to the toilet, Tianbao hid nearby behind some bushes in order to get a glance at the official鈥檚 buttocks. However, Tianbao was caught and interrogated. He confessed his love, attraction, and admiration for the official but the latter was disgusted by Tianbao鈥檚 affection and wanted none of it. He condemned the soldier to death. A month later, Tianbao appeared as a rabbit at night in the dream of one of the villagers of his hometown. Although resigned to his fate and agreeing that the punishment of death was just, Tianbao declared that his actions were born from a pure feeling and that love between men should not be condemned. He asked the man to build a temple in his honor from which he would help men find a male significant other. The temple was erected and became so popular in Fujian that the Qing authorities targeted it for regulation.
From this story, we get the terms 鈥淐ult to Hu Tianbao鈥漚nd 鈥渢he Rabbit God鈥. Rabbits were used before this story was even compiled in late imperial China to refer to homosexuals in general. If you are ever wondering, 鈥渨hat is up with all of the rabbits in Danmei/Dangai media?鈥 There you go, now you know.
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Other literary allusions to male love and sex include:
Mandarin Ducks (榇涢处) 馃
Although these animals have been used throughout Chinese literature and history as symbols of love in general, both same-sex and heterosexual, it was first used to symbolize 鈥渇raternal love鈥. The ancient Chinese considered mandarin ducks to be symbols of love and loyalty because they believed the animals mated for life.
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The Rear Courtyard (鍚庡涵) 馃崒馃崙
One popular phrase writers used, mostly towards the end of Chinese imperial history, to allude to anal sex and buttocks was 鈥渢he rear courtyard鈥 (鍚庡涵). Variations include 鈥渢he pleasures of the rear courtyard鈥 and 鈥減laying in the inner courtyard鈥. You will find those expressions in multiple works by Ming and Qing dynasty poets and writers.
Male Mode & Southern Mode (鐢烽ⅷ) & (鍗楅ⅷ)馃挩
Literally translated to 鈥渕ale wind鈥 and 鈥渟outhern wind鈥 they are both references to male-homosexuality. For some reason, the south of China has been more historically and culturally inclined to same-sex love than other places. We find this from the many mentions of the state of Chu in early works of literary reference to male love, in the lesbian Golden Orchid Society (閲戝叞浼) in Guangdong Province (骞夸笢鐪), and in the male-male marriages of Fujian province. In fact, homosexual practices were such a staple of southern Chinese provincial life that multiple writers satirized it in their works such as Qing dynasty playwright Li Yu (鏉庢紒).
And that concludes this veeeeeeeery long post. If you read all of that then, damn, you really are bored lol. But I thank you, nonetheless. I apologize if I mixed traditional and simplified Chinese characters. I tried to use traditional characters for the names to preserve their aesthetic appearance and authenticity. I will leave some of the resources I used for this post. I welcome you to take a look at them whenever you want.
With that being said, I only scratched the surface of literary references with this post. There are many, many more, however, I touched on the general ones. With how rich the male same-sex love Chinese literary field is, I cannot help but grow frustrated and tired at the lack of usage by modern Danmei/Dangai creative teams. Let鈥檚 leave the cut-sleeve to the side for a while and focus on the other awesome male-love references in Chinese literary history. Ok?
Anyways, 鎷滄嫓 馃憢
hunnibee26
Resources:
Birrell, A. (1982). New songs from a Jade Terrace: An anthology of early Chinese love poetry. Routledge. [Translation of Birrell of Xu Liang鈥檚 classic anthology of the same name]
Hinsch, B. (1990). The passion of the cut sleeve. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Owen, S., & Swartz, W. (Trans.). (2017). The poetry of Ruan Ji and Xi Kang. (S. M. Allen., P. W. Kroll, C. M. B. Nuget, S. Owen, A. M. Shields, X. Tian, D. X. Warner, Eds.) De Gruyter.
Stevenson, M., & Wu, C. (Eds.). (2013). Homoeroticism in imperial China: A sourcebook. Taylor & Francis.
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momolieea month ago
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Ultimately, I鈥檓 just worried about mxtx.
Apart from the rumors around whether or not she鈥檚 in jail, her popularity has finally reached a level that harms her rather than benefits her. Now, those in charge of censoring, know her by name and target her work specifically. They list her works out when discussing the new censorship rules for donghuas, video games, web novels and even dramas. She鈥檚 on their blacklist and everyone on their team is on a look out for her.
So yes I鈥檓 worried about her. She was still a college student when she wrote tgcf, she鈥檚 still so young with her whole future stretching out ahead of her. Too young for rumors about whether or not she鈥檚 in jail to go around, too young to already have so many people watching out for her, too young to be publicly slandered like that. I hope she鈥檚 safe and well, I pray she鈥檚 at her home rn, sipping hot chocolate as she laughs at how she angered all those people by writing about two men kissing. I hope she鈥檚 far away and unreachable and about to get hella rich from the English novels that are about to come out.
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midnight-sun163 months ago
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Honestly I love how MXTX's couple dynamics are all like well intentioned bringer of chaos (Shen Qingqiu, Wei Wuxian, Xie Lian) and househusband that could break your bones in alfabetical order (Luo Binghe, Lan Wangji, Hua Cheng)
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pumpkinpaix3 months ago
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on translation (again), 鐭ュ繁, "soulmates", danmei, and cdrama subtitling
aka, cyan wanders off into the weeds and lies down to be swallowed by the earth because whatever.
almost two months ago, i made a brief impromptu salt post after encountering something frustrating at the end of a long day. i didn't actually want to have a conversation about it, but then everyone kept talking in the replies and i said fuck it and wrote like 7k words in an emotional frenzy before shoving it into my drafts because i couldn't stand to look at it anymore. but hey, i came back to it and did my best with whatever the fuck this ended up being, so here, have the full avalanche of only marginally organized thoughts. take it or leave it.
if you're new here, you may want to read my last big post on translation. there are two other posts linked at the beginning of that one which provide context. they will (hopefully) give you some idea of where I stand when it comes to translation as an art/practice if you don't already know.
i am also going to be blunt: those posts were made over half a year ago and i had a LOT more patience to spare back then for anglophone cdrama/danmei fandom. these days, i can't even browse fic for five minutes without losing my temper, so like. you know. fair warning, I am still trying to be kind, but I hit my breaking point sometime back in 2020 my dudes.
if you're still with me, cheers to u mate let's go
basically: at this moment in time, I despise "soulmates" as a translation for 鐭ュ繁 in the contexts of english subtitles for danmei live-action adaptations. when CQL first came out, I was neutral-critical of the translation--it wasn't what I would have chosen, but I understood why the choice was made, and it was tolerable to me in most cases. there are even certain situations where I still think it makes fairly good sense, ignoring metatextual concerns. however, approximately *checks notes* two years later and after the entrance of SHL onto the anglophone danmei cdrama fandom scene, I've revised that opinion to no, actually "soulmates" is bad and i hate it, specifically for how it's been picked up and misconstrued in anglophone fandom spaces and the consequences thereof. i swear to GOD if i had KNOWN how much psychic damage I was going to take because of this translation choice, I would have salted and burned the earth under it at the outset!!!! hindsight is 20/20 (ha) or whatever!!!
i know that that's a controversial take, but if you wanna hear me out, i shall continue forthwith beneath the cut
anglophone fandom goes fucking wild for 鐭ュ繁, from "omg and they were soulmates" jokes to screaming about netflix's summary for the untamed:
In a magical world of inter-clan rivalry, two soulmates face treacherous schemes and uncover a dark mystery linked to a tragic event in the past.
not gonna lie it was only funny the first few times haha yes indeed these two omg ~soulmates~ how did they get this past censorship etc etc. but now? i just find it aggravating. on particularly bad days, i have to put the internet down gently or I'll start crying.
look. i get it. there is a delight in seeing what feels like a daring flaunt of government restrictions, especially when it's something close to your heart, something close to your personhood. get wrecked, wangxian too gay for the censors etc. we cannot be suppressed. or, perhaps in more familiar terms, "we're here, we're queer, get used to it."
there's a flavor to the way a lot of these offhand comments and jokes about gay couples somehow "getting through" censorship in BL cdramas that makes me flinch when I see them. it's hard to pinpoint and describe--but maybe it's the lack of fear. chinese governmental censorship of the media is. not a joke, you know? there can be severe consequences for crossing the state. do you remember the case of tianyi? do you remember the disappearance of fan bingbing? do you remember li wenliang?
do you remember this post?
what troubles me about 鐭ュ繁 and "soulmates" in particular is how it's often held up as some kind of evidence of how brazen and cheeky the media in question is being--to the point where sometimes people will claim or imply that translating 鐭ュ繁 as anything other than "soulmates" is somehow queer erasure. that 鐭ュ繁 in the contexts of both CQL and SHL carried explicit romantic intent and to not encode that romantic tone within the english translation/subtitle would be, idk, the equivalent of calling wangxian and wenzhou galpals or whatever.
im. okay. im gonna be real with you right now. this just isn't fucking true. moreover, i find this kind of attitude to be such a shallow, one-dimensional approach to the politics of queerness in text, especially in the contexts we're dealing with here. this kind of rhetoric runs adjacent to painfully recent, american-centric chronically online discussions on representation and visibility in pop culture/media that I often find lack complexity and compassion. it feels intensely tied to the american culture of gay pride, the notion that being loudly, explicitly out is the best or only way to embody queer progress and that to do otherwise is, on some level, a betrayal. this isn't even a new conversation. here's a piece that appeared in salon from 1999 in which the author talks about his own misgivings about the culture and focus on pride. it's dated, certainly, but i can't pretend i'm not like. kinda depressed about the fact that so many of his points feel acutely relevant to me, almost exactly 22 years later.
you cannot measure chinese media with the same standards you might measure US (or UK or whatever) media because they are produced within very different cultural, political and historical contexts. being queer in the US or being POC in the US does not automatically give you a privileged understanding of the issues that surround the chinese media industry! i am fucking chinese-american and i had to do a lot of fucking personal work just to understand what little I do right now because it would be ridiculous to say that my heritage somehow gives me perfect access to the whole picture.
i don't. usually like to talk about my academic qualifications--most of the time I see people flexing on that front, I remain highly suspicious because well. look, I also have a college degree in Something Or Other and i was Not Impressed with like 80% of my peers. i know exactly how little you need to do to get a degree at a good, private university in the states. but I think it's tangential to my point, so: I come from an academic background that gave me access to a lot of knowledge and modes of thought which make me uniquely suited to talking about these sorts of subjects, and despite all of that, i still don't feel comfortable outright passing judgment on the majority of issues surrounding danmei fandom/media/etc. it fucking boggles my mind that there are some of you out here really trying to position yourselves as moral arbiters of something most of you can't even grasp in its original language, much less its rich cultural context. you may have noticed that my stance on almost everything is "it's complicated! here's what I believe i understand" so tbh the hubris on display is quite frankly astounding. my irritation with the "soulmates" effect is just a minor facet of *gestures* everything.
i know that the language i'm using is not particularly gentle. i hope you can understand and forgive me for having some ugly, vicious emotions after an ugly, vicious two years, both within fandom and without. i am not trying to punish anyone. i'm just. you know. running really low on good faith and patience.
i ultimately can't blame people for latching onto the soulmates translation--it's compelling, it feels unexpectedly explicit, and it was provided by "official sources" (oof). this is more an entreaty to spend a little more time thinking about some assumptions you may be holding or to reconsider your stances on a few things. maybe you'll ultimately disagree with me--that's fine. i don't want people to agree with me just because I said it, I want people to agree with me because they considered my words and judged them to be sound. but the fact still remains that 鐭ュ繁 isn't revolutionary or even particularly daring. you could call it capitulation and even that wouldn't be inaccurate. it is a socially acceptable way to label an intimate bond between two men in stories, platonic or otherwise. of course they're 鐭ュ繁. it's not the use of 鐭ュ繁 itself that makes an onscreen relationship more or less explicitly romantic but the context of the rest of their interactions. 鐭ュ繁 has multiple valences, and to pretend or assume that the romantic one is the only relevant reading of it is an oversimplification that I feel devalues both the depth of the term itself and, more broadly, love that does not take a romantic form. at its core, 鐭ュ繁 is about intimacy--in many shapes and at many levels.
before i continue, please read @hunxi-guilai's post about 鐭ュ繁 and how it can vary in meaning and gravity depending on context. I'm gonna quote the paragraphs that are particularly relevant to my points here because no offense, i don't trust anyone to read anything or put in the effort to meet me halfway anymore.
first:
People seem shocked when 鐭ュ繁 zhiji is a term dropped in casual conversation or daily dialogue, and they really shouldn鈥檛 be; it is as weighty or as casual as someone makes it in the moment. It is a living, breathing word that is actively employed in vernacular vocabularies, not some ancient artifact only pulled out and dusted off for the most significant/dramatic of occasions.
and second:
In the 銆婂ぉ娑銆 audiodrama, Zhou Zishu calls Wen Kexing a zhiji聽just for noticing that he鈥檚 sunning himself on the street (because Wen Kexing is the only聽one who sees through Zhou Zishu鈥檚 disguise at that moment, and doesn鈥檛 take him for a beggar). At that point, they haven鈥檛 even exchanged a single word, and Zhou Zishu remarks to himself that he hadn鈥檛 thought to meet a 鐭ュ繁 zhiji. He makes no more of it than that鈥搄ust the acknowledgement聽oh, someone understood me,聽before moving on with his day.
i think problems arise for a few reasons.
1) a lot of people just do not understand translation from a practical standpoint, which I blame on a combination of flawed education systems and a failure to apply critical reasoning to situations involving translation. i think this is definitely a problem in the US specifically--that's the public education system I grew up in and have personal experience with, and I can say that with a fair amount of confidence. because of this, I see a lot (and i mean a lot) of people insisting on one-to-one translations of terms, concepts, etc. there is a lot of concern with "accuracy" and "what's the correct/proper translation for x then". if you read my last series of posts on translation that i linked up at the beginning of this post, you may have noticed that trend and my frustrations with it. this is less an issue with "poor" or "bad" translations themselves, but with how people have learned (or perhaps, not learned) to interact with translations.
2) a related issue to point 1 is that beyond not understanding the basic complications inherent to all translation is the subsequent (predictable) lack of understanding regarding different types of translation and how different branches of translation will prioritize different things entirely and implement completely different techniques. literary translation is very different from legal translation, which is very different from subtitling for mass market release, which is different from academic translation, which is different from comics translation, which is different from video game localization, which is different from machine translation, which is different from live interpretation etc. etc. etc. this is a problem not only for laypeople but also for professionals who work in translation industries that have little to no interaction with other types of translation. a professional legal translator isn't automatically qualified to talk shit to me about literary translation (and vice-versa) because we have fundamentally different goals, philosophies, and concerns. furthermore, translation as a trade vs translation as an art require different knowledge bases and skills--I'm a terrible medical interpreter, but an excellent literary translator.
3) so put these two gaps in general knowledge together, combine them with an explosively growing fandom, two languages that are notoriously difficult to translate between, the unfortunate political snarl surrounding the source material, then add a dash of tumblr-twitter university-flavored social justice rhetoric, a heaping metric fuckton spoonful of sinophobia, and you get the unfortunate, "鐭ュ繁 EQUALS SOULMATE IF YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE IT'S BOWING TO CENSORSHIP STOP ERASING QUEERNESS FROM MEDIA" take.
is this a (somewhat unkind) hyperbolic representation? i mean, yeah. but please remember, this take also manifests in things like "then what's the proper translation for 鐭ュ繁 [or any other complicated term]?" and "but 鐭ュ繁 is a way of getting around the censors by implying romance, right?" and "well, how do you keep the original [romantic] meaning of 鐭ュ繁 in translation then?" and "omg they really said soulmates" and "CQL/SHL said SOULMATE RIGHTS" and "wangxian/wenzhou are soulmates 馃槶馃槶馃槶馃槶" and, as i've stated, my least favorite: "CQL/SHL said fuck the censors they're soulmates".
these are fairly innocent on their own--like I said, despite the very serious digression i took up there, I get it. I understand the impulses, I understand why it's fun, but when it piles up and gets repeated over and over, it starts to wear. just. please think twice before idk, hinging entire premises on the misconception that two characters are "canonical soulmates" or making yet another fucking censorship joke or hot take that i personally have to see. stop using chinese state-sponsored censorship as a prop in your bids for internet clout and/or self-absorbed political agendas projected onto fictional characters.
okay.
with that said, i guess now it's time for some more regularly scheduled cyan programming: obsessive opinions about translation choices.
besides often finding online fandom's current preoccupation with explicitly stated queer representation simplistic and uncompassionate or whatever, I also, for petty, personal reasons, just think it's just such an unbelievably boring and unimaginative way to engage with language and literature--with the power of things that are left unsaid, with subtext and subtlety! yes, there is great power and value in explicit statements, but there is also power in the implicit. the wholesale dismissal of anything less than open declarations results in, i think, some pretty hollow takes (and some seriously lackluster writing).
so what are the artistic reasons for why I don't want to see "soulmate" for 鐭ュ繁 anymore?
as hunxi explained in her post, 鐭ュ繁 is a term that changes meaning and gravity depending on context and situational usage. just as it can be used with great significance, it can also be a totally casual thing. taking into account the tendency for fandom at large to think of translation as a one-to-one equivalency, when you consistently translate 鐭ュ繁 into "soulmate" you end up with... issues.
i think this is specifically due to its immutable register--"soulmate" is an inherently weighty term, something that is not true for 鐭ュ繁. furthermore, "soulmate" is likely to carry a romantic connotation in english, which, once again, is not true for 鐭ュ繁. this leads to, I think, a lot of misunderstanding and analytical mistakes when discussing both CQL and SHL, because even if people do understand that it's not an exact translation, there's still a persistent belief that 鐭ュ繁, like soulmate, is inherently weighty and sometimes almost explicitly romantic.
let's talk about CQL and SHL to illustrate my point. that's why most of you are here, isn't it?
CQL first. ep 25. the godforsaken iconic 鐭ュ繁 exchange.
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[ID: screenshot from episode 25 of the untamed during the 鐭ュ繁 conversation. lan wangji and wei wuxian face each other in profile. there are no words onscreen. /end ID]
this bitch.
here is the original dialogue:
LWJ: 浣犳妸鎴戝綋鎴愪粈涔堜汉锛 WWX: 鎴戞浘缁忔妸浣犲綋浣滄垜姣曠敓鐭ュ繁 LWJ: 鐝惧湪浠嶆槸
there are numerous translations of these lines--both netflix and youtube (as of 15 june 2021) render 鐭ュ繁 as "confidant": netflix:
LWJ: Who do you take me for? WWX: I once treated you as my lifelong confidant. LWJ: I still am.
youtube:
LWJ: who do you take me for? WWX: I had once taken you as my whole-life confidant. LWJ: Still, I am.
however, the version that I know most people latch onto/are familiar with is the one where wei wuxian's line is subtitled as something like, "I once saw you as my soulmate of this lifetime". if I remember correctly, the WeTV subs originally had this, as did netflix. the episode description of 25 on wikipedia notes that "Wei WuXian answers that he used to treat Lan WangJi as a soulmate." other instances of 鐭ュ繁 are also now rendered as "confidant" (or "true friend" in one instance), but you can see some of the original translations in screenshots collected in this tweet from december 2019.
on the off-chance that the tweet is moved/deleted, here is a screenshot of the images in question:
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[ID: four screenshots from the untamed with different pieces of dialogue that include the term "soulmate". /end ID]
top row, left to right are from episodes 7 and 25. the bottom row is two moments from episode 43, in case anyone is insane like me cares. yes i did pull that almost entirely from memory rip my brain storage space
if I were forced to keep soulmate for at least one instance, i would pick the bottom right scene in 43, where wei wuxian remarks: "浜虹敓寰椾竴鐭ュ繁, 瓒崇煟." // "to have a 鐭ュ繁 in one's lifetime, that is enough". unless i'm forgetting another instance, i would argue that this is wei wuxian's weightiest use of the term throughout the entire series: this is in the present-day arc (so after *handwaves* all that trauma), lan wangji just stood beside him publicly and declared his loyalty on the steps of jinlin tai in front of the most prominent figures in their sphere, we're getting close to the resolution of the plot, and wei wuxian has just learned about lan wangji's punishment, aka the depths of his devotion. to go a little deeper, this is a quote from 20th century poet lu xun and is written in an elevated register. putting aside that this is a 20th century literary reference in fantasy ancient china (but then again: there's really no point in trying to "accurately" date CQL. you may as well try to "accurately" date game of thrones), i think the register is meaningful because wei wuxian moves between registers depending on context, but in everyday speech, is most likely to sit comfortably in a colloquial range. an elevated register carries significance for him, unlike lan wangji for whom this is the norm. (yet again: see hunxi's post on linguistic register in CQL for the rundown on that)
this is in stark contrast to the moment in episode 7 depicted in the top left image. wei wuxian and lan wangji have just presented the yin iron to lan xichen and lan qiren and explained their little adventure at the cold springs. wei wuxian speculates on how everything is connected and lan xichen confirms his reasoning and adds, "Wangji, when you asked me before, I couldn't reveal the truth to you." wei wuxian, realizing that he and lan wangji have had the same thoughts about the situation, goes, "鍝燂紝鐭ュ繁鍟", which basically means "hey, we're 鐭ュ繁!" if i really wanted to capture the tone of this little interjection, i would say the mood is closest to something like: "yo, we totally vibe/we're on the same wavelength/you get me/samesies!" etc etc. this is about as casual as you can get--it's literally just 鐭ュ繁, prefaced by a particle that's roughly equivalent to "hey/yo/oh!" and followed by an auxiliary particle to express a mild sense of enthusiasm.
you can make an argument to use "soulmates" again in this situation. after all, it's not unusual to hyperbolize semi-ironically in english-- "yo, we're totally soulmates" or "hey, soulmate alert" etc. I don't think these specific (exaggerated) examples are appropriate for CQL for obvious reasons, but i think that, in a vacuum, subtitling this as, "hey, it's like we're soulmates" could work.
HOWEVER, as I said before, im now anti-soulmate and I Would Prefer Not To, so let's explore that.
as established, 鐭ュ繁 can naturally vary in gravity, while I personally don't feel that soulmate does. so in order to keep the "soulmate" translation, I think you have to create a reading of tone that's not exactly true to the character in the moment. if someone says, in a situation like this, "yo, it's like we're soulmates", it's understood that there's an irony to it. they're exaggerating for effect, etc. this isn't necessarily OOC for wei wuxian in general, but I don't think it's true to what's happening in this specific scene and more importantly, to the purpose of the 鐭ュ繁 motif throughout CQL. I believe that 鐭ュ繁 is being used earnestly, if lightly.
the 鐭ュ繁 motif is a CQL-only choice; it is not present in the mdzs novel. the use of 鐭ュ繁/鐭ュ繁-adjacent dialogue (i.e. dialogue concerning familiarity, recognition, understanding, insiders vs outsiders) over the course of the story is one of the ways that I think CQL was trying to illustrate a subtextual relationship that would be accepted by the censors. because it is a motif, I understand why we would want to translate the term with some degree of consistency in order to preserve its purpose.
i believe this hinges on the way that 鐭ュ繁 can naturally vary in tonal weight from very light to very heavy: it's anything from "hey! we vibe" to "you are the only one who truly understands me". to use "soulmate" as a blunt, one-to-one equivalence is a) bad because of my earlier points about how translation is never a one-to-one etc. and b) not to my taste specifically because "soulmate" lacks this natural fluidity, so even if you can make interesting artistic choices by varying the sincerity of how "soulmate" is used (as i showed a few paragraphs up), I think this has a subtle but profound effect on the way wangxian's relationship is presented.
CQL wangxian are quite different from mdzs wangxian in a number of ways, but what's relevant here is how their relationship has a much more fated/meant-to-be flavor to it in CQL rather than in mdzs. from the beginning, CQL emphasizes their special connection, even if neither of them has fully come to terms with those feelings. wangxian's first moonlit duel is way more of a big deal in CQL than in mdzs, for example. other examples include: their tagteam adventure in the cold springs with lan yi; their symbolic forehead ribbon marriage; the lantern scene; meeting songxiao and emphasizing their special connection; the emotional farewell in the rain; i could go on. this is a very different relationship to wangxian in the novel, in which wei wuxian is really so caught up in his own problems before his death that the bulk of wangxian's relationship is actually built up and reciprocated during the present-day arc instead. which i prefer!!!! but that's neither here nor there.
"but cyan!" i hear you saying, "surely that means that soulmate is a good translation? what is a soulmate if not a fated/meant-to-be person??" to which i say, HERE'S MY REBUTTAL: to use "soulmate" as a catch-all translation for 鐭ュ繁 changes the axis upon which the relationship moves. instead of gravity, it becomes sincerity. and this, I think, is not a good reflection of what 鐭ュ繁 (and related dialogue) is meant to convey throughout CQL.
one of the personality traits of wei wuxian that CQL doubles down on is how seriously he takes the important things, regardless of what kind of outer demeanor he presents. jiang yanli says to jiang cheng within the first few episodes that "you know that a'xian never fools around when it matters". that doesn't mean he doesn't have fun! he still buys the 澶╁瓙绗 liquor when he goes to fetch the invitation from caiyi after all. he likes to mess around, he likes to play tricks and he is blessed with a light heart. but we see over and over again, even as a schoolboy, that he is sincere and heartfelt about important things. once again: see the lantern scene.
to me, I think this is enough reason to step back from trying to use the "soulmate" translation because it necessitates that kind of hyperbolic/ironic tone in english in that moment in episode 7, when I think it's actually narratively salient that wei wuxian is being earnest. this is especially important for one of the first uses of 鐭ュ繁 in the story. 鐭ュ繁 grows heavier with each subsequent use as CQL progresses: it goes from something casual to something much more significant, but I don't believe it's ever used ironically--as i said, i believe the thematic axis is gravity. if we confine ourselves to using "soulmate" as a one-to-one translation for 鐭ュ繁, we inevitably hit snags because the terms just do not function the same way.
"well, ok cyan, then what the hell are you proposing we do instead" you all fucking ask me because heaven forbid i complain about anything without providing an itemized list of proposed solutions
after thinking about it for a really long time, i think my preferred solution is actually fairly simple--instead of trying to translate 鐭ュ繁 as a rigid, one-word noun, just... translate what it means.
if you don't already know, the two characters that make up 鐭ュ繁 are 鐭 "to know" and 宸 "self". so someone who is 鐭ュ繁 can literally be described as "one who knows me". i think that to know and to understand are both english verbs that have the same natural weight variance as 鐭ュ繁. you can, completely sincerely, say both "oh yeah, I know her," and "but i know her" for very different effect. i think that with some work and thought, you could come up with subtitles that not only circumvent the problem of reinforcing one-to-one translation tendencies and the misconceptions that those tend to breed, but also preserve the intended thematic throughline and are an acceptable length for actual subtitle timing and encoding.
this post is already way too fucking long, but in for a penny in for my entire life savings i guess: one of the considerations of subtitles that tends to get ignored or forgotten, especially in fansub territory, is timing and relative length. good subtitles must both convey meaning well and convey it in a length that an average viewer can absorb and understand in the time that it is onscreen. fansubs play fast and loose with this because there's no concern over the idea of capturing and/or maintaining an audience. for the most part, fansubs are for people who are already fans. plus, there's (theoretically) no money/profit involved. for media corporations, this is going to be a much bigger concern--capturing and maintaining an audience is critical to profit. and we all know how much people hate subtitles generally anyways (especially in anglophone countries :)), so they had better be a) clear and b) easy to access if you want to keep your viewers.
this is a significant challenge for chinese -> english subtitles because of the way the languages work. i talk about this at length in my post on lan wangji's speech patterns and the difficulties associated with rendering them into english. if you'd like to see an example in action, here's a screenshot of my aegisub workspace for the SHL special ending easter egg subtitles:
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[ID: screenshot of the subtitling program aegisub, displaying a segment of an episode. in the CPS column, a few lines are pale to medium red. the line displayed is "Will Senior please offer critique!" for 璇峰墠杈堟寚鐐 /end ID]
honestly, not too bad! my worst character per second (CPS) ratio is 23CPS, which is the first line.
but look at this screenshot from my aegisub workspace for HIStory3: Trap, episode 1:
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[ID: screenshot of the subtitling program aegisub, displaying a segment of an episode. in the CPS column, several lines are medium to bright red. the line on display is "Another division says they can snatch him away, so they just snatch him," for 鍒殑鍗曚綅璇存姠灏辨姠 /end ID]
god the hilarity of seeing HOW LONG the english is compared to the mandarin. if you look at the numbers, you may notice that i have a 49CPS and also a 39CPS line right next to each other. that is Bad! this was a personal project, so I was unconcerned. however, this would be unacceptable for official, mainstream release subtitles.
netflix's guidelines for english subtitles are publicly available online. if you scroll down to the sections on reading speed for english subtitles for foreign language source material (II.17), you will see that netflix's standard for adult programs is 20CPS. and i hope by now it's clear why that can be such a bitterly challenging metric to meet in a show like CQL.
this is not to defend the netflix subtitles. or the wetv ones. they're absolutely fucking abysmal, even by the standards laid out in the netflix style guide. I could pick through the document and point out every way in which I believe the CQL subtitles laughably fail to meet the standards (and the infuriating consequences thereof), but that's another post for sure. there is some leeway for "industry requirements" but I'm getting real tired of this excuse when it's clear that the real problem is a) the people in charge of the subtitles simply don't care enough/don't pay enough for good subtitles and b) subtitling/specialized translation isn't really considered a serious, difficult art that requires creative skill to be done well. it's truly fucking enraging.
what i'm trying to do by really driving down on all of these minute details is to hopefully (!!) prompt people into shifting their paradigms re: translation/subtitling and more fully understand how simple misconceptions driven by singular translation choices can ripple out into complex and unexpected forms, harmful or not. i am well aware that the amount of thought, time, energy etc. that I've put into this One Translation Choice is completely unfeasible as a mainstream standard. it's obviously ridiculous! but I think there is a middle ground somewhere that wouldn't have caused so much unintentional damage. "soulmates" is the tip of the goddamn iceberg. (every time i see a one-character name, i feel another piece of my soul crumble away)
for CQL specifically, I've gone back and forth between whether I would prefer using "to know" or "to understand" as the fulcrum of the 鐭ュ繁 translation, and I... think..... I would go with "to know". at least right now. there are a few reasons for that tentative choice, one of which is simply that "know" is only four characters while "understand" is ten. the other is that, after messing around with both in each scenario, I think "know" ultimately flows better sonically.
i'm only going to break down the exchange in episode 25 because i'm exhausted, but here:
ep 25:
LWJ: 浣犳妸鎴戝綋鎴愪粈涔堜汉锛 WWX: 鎴戞浘缁忔妸浣犲綋浣 [new line] 鎴戞瘯鐢熺煡宸 LWJ: 鐝惧湪浠嶆槸
there are actually a couple things with this exchange I want to talk about in addition to 鐭ュ繁. first: the way that lan wangji's first line is subtitled: "who do you take me for?"
this is a poor translation because it has absolutely the wrong tone in english. "who/what do you take me for?" is an idiomatic, rhetorical question, that's usually followed by something derogatory. one of the more common forms you'll see is "what do you take me for, an idiot?" it's not appropriate for this serious, vulnerable question that lan wangji is posing.
a much better translation, in my opinion, would be "who am I to you?" which also has some pretty specific connotations in english. it doesn't have to be romantic, but it does often appear in romantic scenarios where someone wants to know where they stand in relation to another. this, i think, gets you the hint of romantic intention that feels appropriate in this scene without the heavy-handedness of "soulmates", and also just. more accurately reflects lan wangji's intentions.
(an aside: i speculate that the reason we got "who do you take me for" is because the chinese sentence structure more or less literally translates to something like "you have taken me for/regarded me as/made me into what kind of person?". depending on tone, you can use it in the same way as "who do you take me for" in english, but unfortunately, that's not what's happening here. it seems like a very unsurprising mistake for a machine translation.)
so the 鐭ュ繁 line. this one is HARD because it's long! and the subtitles split right before 姣曠敓鐭ュ繁 because wei wuxian pauses. I think the power of the line rests in keeping the answer wholly after the pause. the original was, I think, "I once saw you as [pause, new subtitle line] my soulmate of this lifetime."
ugh!! it's so awkward and weird, ESPECIALLY following a "who do you take me for" GOD. here's my proposal:
I once thought you were someone [pause] who would know me for a lifetime.
it's long!! yes it's long, but we have a little wiggle room because there's a lot of heavy silences during this exchange, so we might actually be able to make the CPS limit. or almost. what the fuck ever. I could shorten it further by just saying "I once thought you [pause] would know me for a lifetime" but this is the wrong form of answer for the question "who am I to you?" so I think it's worthwhile to keep "were someone" despite how many characters it adds.
and lan wangji's final response (yes, I have thoughts on this too): we have both "I still am" and "Still, I am". I feel strongly that "Still, I am" is better than "I still am" because lan wangji being lan wangji is using a more formal construction. the 浠 character he's using for "still" is usually literary. putting "still" at the front of the sentence creates a more elevated tone in english, and emphasizes it, which more closely reflects lan wangji's intention.
NOW HOWEVER, if we are going with my dialogue proposals, I would say that we should change this to "Still, I do" because the relevant part of "someone who would know me for a lifetime" is the knowing and the implication in that is "i don't know if you know me right now" or "i don't know if you will actually know me forever" or "you knew me once, and i thought it would be forever, but now I'm not so sure". so i feel that lan wangji's response should be to that implied uncertainty, even if it shifts the grammar a little. I do still know you. I know you right now.
putting it all together, my proposed dialogue would look like this:
LWJ: Who am I to you? WWX: I once thought you were someone [new line] who would know me for a lifetime. LWJ: Still, I do.
DO YOU SEE WHY I THINK THIS IS BETTER THAN SOULMATES. what's powerful about this scene is what isn't being said! it's the tone! it's the fucking reaching out and trying to cling to someone you're afraid you're in the process of losing. fucks sake. what is more intimate than really knowing a person? i hate everything. soulmates my ASS.
all right, let's pivot to SHL, which presents a different set of challenges with its use of 鐭ュ繁. there are two exchanges involving 鐭ュ繁 that I think are particularly noteworthy: once in ep8, the moment we all remember when wen kexing says it, and once in ep30, when jin-wang says he had always thought zhou zishu was his 鐭ュ繁.
in these two lines in SHL, there is an emphasis on 鐭ュ繁's function as a title/role, whereas in CQL I think there's more room to bend the structure of the dialogue around 鐭ュ繁 without losing sight of its original purpose. both of the lines in SHL use 鐭ュ繁 in direct contrast to another, lesser term: in wen kexing's case, he's saying, "you only think of me as a friend? after all this? but I think of you as 鐭ュ繁". jin-wang, on the other hand, is saying, "I always thought you were my 鐭ュ繁, but it seems you're nothing more than an ordinary person". it's much harder here to try and retain the punch of the parallel structure of these moments without the use of a shorter, one-to-one translation: "friend" vs "someone who understands me", and "someone who understands me" vs "ordinary person"--they're such unequal length that I think the overall structure starts to get clunky, especially in episode 30 when it's all said at once. the mandarin has an elegance because each term is two characters: 鏈嬪弸 (friend)锛屽焊浜 (mediocre/ordinary person)锛岀煡宸
since i never met a translation challenge i didn't charge at headfirst screaming, let's give this a shot. why the hell not.
here's my problem with using "soulmates"--even though I think it does work in episode 8, it really doesn't in episode 30. i think the reason the moment in episode 30 produces such a visceral recoil is because it's using a term that's perfectly appropriate in the social context, but still feels like a desecration because of how that term has been given a different meaning through the rest of the show. as it is right now, the translation "soulmates" feels like a distraction from the intensity of the moment because it doesn't really fit--again, it's the romantic connotations of soulmate that are making things difficult. jin-wang very obviously does NOT mean 鐭ュ繁 in a romantic context (though that can be a valid and fun dynamic to play with in fic etc.) this is a much closer to a patron-minister manifestation of the 鐭ュ繁 relationship, and it centers around ideals, politics, shared vision etc. (for background on this aspect of 鐭ュ繁, please avail yourself of one of hunxi's posts if you're unfamiliar with it idk look, hunxi just has a lot of backlog i can conveniently cite ok)
when I read "soulmate" on the screen it took me right out of the moment--it's such an out-of-place term for the situation! i think it diminishes jin-wang's charisma a lot because it sounds so... laughable?? idk. in any case, jin-wang is beiyuan's ex and I Would Llike To See It
so what i'm looking for is a one-to-one translation that can work in both scenarios, and after a lot of thought on this front, the best I've been able to come up with in english is "kindred spirit". if I were forced to give a general one-to-one translation of 鐭ュ繁 for all-purpose use, this is what I would choose as well. but again, it's far from perfect. I would just prefer it over "soulmates" or "bosom friend" or what the fuck ever as a catch-all.
anyways, episode 8:
WKX: 浣犳庝箞涓嶉棶鎴戝綋浣犳槸浠涔堬紵 ZZS: 绠′綘褰撴垜鏄粈涔 ... WKX: 鏄 鐭ュ繁
YT subs:
WKX: Why don't you ask me what I think of you? ZZS: I don't care. ... WKX: You're my soulmate.
my proposed alteration:
WKX: Why aren't you asking how I think of you? ZZS: Who cares how you think of me. ... WKX: I think of you as [new line] my kindred spirit.
episode 30:
JW: 瀛ょ帇杩樹竴鐩翠互涓 [new line] 浣犳槸鎴戠殑鐭ュ繁 [new line] 鍘熸潵 [new line] 浣犱篃鍙槸涓焊浜鸿屽凡
YT subs:
JW: I always think [new line] you are my soul mate. [new line] But it turns out [new line] that you're no more than an ordinary person.
my proposed alteration:
JW: This lonely prince had always thought [new line] that you were my kindred spirit [new line] But it seems [new line] you were nothing more than another ordinary person.
i... want to do explanations of my choices, but I really am running on nothing but fumes at this point. the only thing I want to mention, I think, is the prince's use of 瀛ょ帇 as a pronoun. most of the time, when speaking with zhou zishu, he refers to himself as either 鏈帇 or simply, 鎴. i did a quick check, and i'm fairly confident that 瀛ょ帇 carries the connotation of solitude/loneliness. it's not an uncommon pronoun (for royalty), but I think it's important that he switches to this one in this moment when he laments that he and zhou zishu aren't what he had once hoped they could be.
if I were translating only for myself, I would probably still try to somehow work with "someone who understands me" because I think that just hits harder than "kindred spirit". so like, "I think of you as someone who understands me" and "This lonely prince had always thought that you were someone who understood me", that kind of thing. i think it gets more precisely at the core of what makes 鐭ュ繁 such an important concept in SHL. but i did think it was worthwhile to show how one might translate 鐭ュ繁 in a different context while restricted to a one-to-one term, just as proof of concept. we can have better subtitles that still meet style guidelines. yes, this is fueled by my own bitterness and spite. im fucking tired of the excuses for piss-poor subtitles when the problem clearly is one of value, not possibility.
so where does this leave us, at the end of approximately 7k (yikes)? i... talked about a lot of things, so if you made it all the way to the end, congrats and thanks for sticking with it. i've been trying to figure out how to end this post since i started it, and I haven't found a good answer, but I'll try.
in early 2013, I met a lesbian activist from china at a conference. she was there with a small delegation, maybe about five young queer people, who worked in beijing, or maybe shanghai--it's been a long time, and I don't remember most of the details. what I do remember was that I was anxious, that I still didn't feel comfortable with a label, and that I was at least half-convinced I was faking whatever queer mishmash of feelings I had going on. and I remember that these were the first queer people from china i had ever knowingly met. they talked about the work they were doing, their own coming out experiences, the antagonism and support they'd received--the woman I spoke to mentioned that they had a lesbian print magazine publication, and I naively asked after the presentation if there was any way they could mail it to someone overseas (me) who was interested in reading it. she hesitated somewhat apologetically and said, "well, no, not really. it's still an illegal publication, you see. we can't distribute like that." this was nearly six years before the webnovelist tianyi was sentenced to a decade in prison for printing and distributing her BL work.
in august 2020, about a year after CQL aired, the organizers of shanghai pride announced that they were halting all activities indefinitely after 11 years. new laws instated early this year on self-publishing are increasing restrictions on free speech.
something a little closer to home: you remember 227 right? do you remember some of the cold, callous reactions to the news? like this one? what about the incessant trickle of hot twitter takes that all seem to start with "I know censorship is bad, but"?
at the end of the day, perhaps this is just my sad, tired entreaty once again to think more about how you interact with stories in translation, how complex the act of translation can be. before you blithely make jokes about chinese media censorship and how shows "get around it" based solely on your view through the small and cloudy window of low-quality subtitles, i ask you again to take a moment to reflect. before you tweet a thread about how even though censorship is bad, it forces creativity and produces interesting art, all while holding up misinterpretations of those subtitles as evidence--look, i don't give a fuck. the hays code produced interesting cinema too. many terrible things produce interesting art.
on a more personal note: before you start a fucking dissection of a language you don't understand on my personal vent post, before you barge into someone's askbox with this entitled attitude about language, before you ask any of us to act as your personal tour guide without doing us the basic courtesy of a five second google search, before you try to impose culturally ignorant moral judgments on the text, just. take a minute.
this post is as much a summary of my feelings on 鐭ュ繁 and translation as it is a messy, bitter reaction to the straws that are this close to breaking the camel's back. how many times must i reiterate that translation is not and never will be uncomplicated and bloodless before you all stop demanding easy, simple answers? stop asking me to exploit a culture I barely feel belongs to me for your fanfiction. stop asking me to gut myself to make your media more palatable.
i don't have a coherent thesis for this post. i don't want to have a debate. make your own post if you want to have a discussion because I really don't.
as i sit here staring at all the places where I revised my words to be softer, where i put a disclaimer asking for forgiveness, i debate undoing it all and speaking as harshly as i feel. why should i have to disclaim my emotions every time I have them? why should I have to make everyone comfortable when I have been trying with every fucking fiber of my goodwill to be gentle this whole time, only to be backstabbed, insulted, used, talked over, dismissed? must even my anger be eloquent to be valued? what do i need to be forgiven for?
i miss finding joy here.
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honeypie-ice-cream4 months ago
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GUYS????? SEVEN SEAS ENTERTAINMENT JUST ANNOUNCED OFFICIALLY LICENSED ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF ALL MXTX NOVELS????? COMING OUT IN DECEMBER???? AND PREORDERS ARE OPEN NOW IN BOOKSTORES?????
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minmoyu3 months ago
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MXTX OFFICIAL EN TRANSLATIONS | Licensed By SevenSeas - NOW AVAILABLE FOR PRE-ORDER
Pre-order from sevenseasdanmei.com
Hey guys omg so big news that happened while I was ASLEEP so I鈥檓 a little late but this is BIG. Remember when I said EN translations aren鈥檛 going to come easy?!! Well there are OFFICIAL EN TRANSLATIONS NOW and y鈥檃ll can buy them. So no more weird shit about how you can鈥檛 navigate JJWXC and shit. A lot of international book stores will be picking them up and the publishing of each volumes will run until 2023 BUT if you can afford please buy them now?!
It鈥檚 a HUGE-ass step for the EN fandom for danmei works so please do support!!! Although not the first time danmei works have been translated and sold officially (Via Lactea), these three are the BIGGEST ones so far.
And the best thing is we no longer have to rely on *cough cough* EXR for the EN translations cuz MDZS is being retranslated properly, and SUIKA IS ON THE TEAM STILL FOR TGCF RETRANSLATIONS SO IT IS THE BEST THING EVER!!!
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Here鈥檚 what Suika has to say about it!!!! I think these will be the best EN official translations ever 馃槶馃槶馃槶
Does this open the gateway to more proper translations in the future? Hell yes, but I suppose it鈥檒l take time and proper negotiation for profits. But MXTX novels are the biggest we can get out there already that have the largest international fanbase as a whole so 馃槶馃槶馃槶
Also although the hard copy costs basically like鈥. Usual book prices which is steep even for me BUT SevenSeas says that there鈥檒l be DIGITIAL ECOPY as well! And apparently Right Stuff Anime is selling them the cheapest for now
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kuronekonerochan8 months ago
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After reading a whole lot of danmeis by several different authors, I find the difference mindsets on morality by three of the most popular ones sort of funny :
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MXTX: actions have consequences and when ppl have power those consequences might be terrible even if the intentions are good. Still staying true in one's heart is important. Also, fuck mob mentality, social media and peer pressure, and celeb internet culture. Anonymous masses are vultures and they can both be terrible on their own or easily manipulated and weaponized. (this last part is really the metaphoric message of the novels, not a reference to any lead actor鈥檚 scandals...which makes the whole irl thing even more ironic...and yes I know I鈥檓 using it wrong but if Alanis Morisette can, so can I).
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Meatbun: Okay, the protagonist is scum. Not just regular scum. Psychotic Genocidal Totalitarian scum (also very into BDSM). Do you think he's bad in the first chapters? Oh he gets worse. Do you feel like stabbing him yet? Good! Only he is the biggest victim of them all and he is now horrified with his actions and bc actions matter regardless of personal excuses, he's gonna suffer with that knowledge forever. Suffer along as the lead pines, despairs and crawls on his path of redemption and neither you nor the characters will ever truly emotionally recover. Conclusion: If you honestly repent then there is a chance at redemption no matter the crime (how very catholic).
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Priest: Be Gay, Do Crimes, Have Fun Storming the Castle!, Murder Parties for all! No need to feel bad, or sorry. Just find a kindred ruthless bf, stir shit up and then retire together into a little cottage somewhere. The world is chaos, do what yo gotta do to survive, don't sweat it. The ends justify the means. Morality is optional, a strong sense of patriotism is advised (" For the Greater Good/ The greater good"), being utterly devoted to your loved one is mandatory tho!
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stringsofwangji6 months ago
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鈥淲ell, I鈥檓 beyond happy that you kissed me so early. It was my first kiss, after all. Congratulations, HanGuang-Jun.鈥
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taruolentowa month ago
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鈥樷榠t鈥檚 been so long since someone listened to me talk鈥欌
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