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chipperydoopcg · 1 year

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Hey Deltarune Fandom

I know its 3am as I wright this but I think I found something online that might be important- or at least, be something to consider- food for thought and all that jazz-

you see, I was scrolling thought reddit when I came upon a particular post...

it starts of seeming very normal, right? I mean, it's just your average detarune fan asking about equipment advice, right?

but.. somethings... off, to say the least......

Not only is the wording weird when talking about Spamton, (with the phrasing of "Spamton dude" being particularly odd, as to get to Spamton's shop, you need to get fairly familiar with him and his character, but this user seems to be acting like this is their first time meeting him.) But Spamton HIMSELF seems to look... Different than usual. Or, at lease, different than his usual shop sprite that is...

and I was not alone on this sentiment, as the comments noticed too!

which leads to wonder....

... yeah, that...

To which OP provided an... Interesting answer....

D-.... Didn't have the money? But, deltarune is free game? Or, at least, Chapter's 1 and 2 are...

you see, a while back, Toby mention online that Chapters 3, 4, and 5 would all be released together, and, unlike the first two, cost money. (or as a certain salesman would phrase it, cost some [[Sweet, Sweet KROMER]]!!!)

Not only that, but its kinda ironic that this user pirated a copy of a free game, and have the one character who has a history with shady links (or in other words, [[Hyperlink Blocked]]) be the one who's changed... Almost as if this bootleg game has its own bootleg of Spamton... The one character who literally tries to be a bootleg of ANOTHER character in-universe. *Cough cough* Swatch- *Cough cough*

But this also leads to question... are there any other differences in the game? I mean, it is a pirated game, surely there has to be some other differences from the original game other than some seemingly random shop sprite of spamton, right?

luckily, I was not the only one who was curious about this and a user by the name of kuro50 ask OP to quote:

To which OP responded:

how... convenient.....

I mean- don't get me wrong- I get that feeling not having any program to record with (though than again OBS Studio exist)- but even still, all of this seems a little bit too, odd to just let off as something "normal"...

but, than again, its not like there's anything necessary wrong about it either, right? I mean, sure, it weird that someone pirated a free game, but, maybe they're just some gullible kid online?

...Except, a user by the name of ThePotatoPerson510 pointed out a few striking things...

And then... it all stared to click...

I went to check the profile and, just as ThePotatoPerson510 had said,

"u/ThatDudeTobias, Cake day December 27, 2022, made 12 hours ago..." the same hour as the spamton post was made... almost as if the account was made just so they could post this.... (Note: the previous image in this post of the spamton post says it was made 10 hours ago. This time gap is because I have been writing this post for 2 hours straight now- coming onto 3 hours- as such, I give you this screenshot showing both the post and the profile, and thus, showing they were in fact made in the same hour-)

MID WRIGHTING UPDATE: It seems as if there WAS a time gap between the two post, as its 5:24am and I just took THIS screenshot showing the time gap. Take this how you will I suppose ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now, about the name... It seem kinda... on the nose, to say the least. I mean, Toby, Tobias, seems a little to similar, right? But, at the same time, knowing Toby, he would be the type to use a seemingly obvious while still not TOO obvious name to fuck with us (he DOSE have a history with being a troll when it comes to his games ¬_¬||)

Also, looking back at the spamton image and comparing it to the name "Tobias", they both share one thing in common... They're both SIMILAR to their originals, to the point where you can tell what they're based off of, but, somewhat off...

As for the one other post on the account, well...

its..

... A comment on MeIRL?

Well, what's the original post?

A..... Video of some guy walking up the stairs, only to keep looping up the same steps, unable to get to the end?

Well, that's... anticlimactic..... Sooo.... Is this just some random account then? Was all of this just for nothing? Was it all red hearings in the end? Well, that's what I thought..

For you see, I realized something....

Toby Fox is a well-known fan of anime, but, not just any anime.... specifically, JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE. How do we know this? Well, in undertale, there is an item in the game called a Punch Card

When this card is used in battle, it says, "OOOORAAAAA!!! You rip up the punch card! Your hands are burning!" This increases your attack. "ORA" Is a common phrase screamed in JOJO' when one of the Jostar's are attacking.

Not only that, but in deltarune, main antagonist of chapter 2 is Queen.

her battle theme? Attack of the Killer Queen

Killer Queen is the stand of Yoshikage Kira. The main antagonist of JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE: Diamond is Unbreakable. Which is the 4th Chapter of the series.

So, what dose ALL of this have to do with the video "Tobias" commented on? Well, you see, in JOJO'S BIZARRE ADVENTURE: Stardust Crusaders, when Polnareff, one of the main protagonist, tries to walk up the stairs to face DIO, the main antagonist, he finds himself in the same loop as the man in the video. Continuously walking up the same set of stares, unable to reach the end.

Meaning, the video that "Tobias", or, as we presume, Toby commented on was in fact...

A JOJO REFFERANCE, AND THUS, MAKES PERFICT SENCE AS TO WHY HE WOULD COMMENT ON IT

...... And so with that last tidbit out of the way, we are left with 3 conclusions that we can come to... 1. This "Tobias" is actually Toby Fox teasing us about Chapter 3 and or some other upcoming scheme of his he has up his sleaves.

2. This "Tobias" is actually Toby Fox just fucking with us

and 3. This is some third party not affiliated with Toby but still making something and teasing it (possibly and ARG or something of sorts) .... That or I've just spent over 3 hours of my life typing this up only for it to be a shitpost by Temmie or something :/

either way its 6:41am as I type this and I have not slept all night so I hope you liked this deep dive analysis into this possibly important reddit account that could hold significant lore for the upcoming chapters of deltarune and if you'll excuse me I'm going to go collapse on my couch for the rest of the day :) have a wonderful time zone <3

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thunder-cube · 3 months

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#deltarune #deltarune chapter 2 #spamton #big shot spamton #spamton g spamton #spamton deltarune #young sheldon #sheldon cooper #big bang theory #the big bang theory #deltarune meme

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deargodhelpmeaaa · 3 months

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Evidence that Krerdly will/could in fact become canon

So usually when I ship something Im like yea this is not going to be in the actual thing but I always see other people all like "PLEASE LET THIS BE IN THE ACTUAL THING" and I genuinely can't tell if they're joking or not like do we actually care that much are we stupid do we need mental help

Anyway here's my evidence as to why it will (could) be(come) canon because fuck you.

Berdly saying he has a crush on Susie is extremely unreliable, as he just kind of randomly decides he has one out of the blue and it's obvious she doesn't like him back and he's stupid very smart and terrible great at reading the room and therefore thinks she does anyway.

the following dialogue is after the queen battle:

(some trivia: dextrose refers to a type of sugar, I think our little boy was trying to sound clever with a big word and didn't use it right, or he meant to say "dexterous" which he would ALSO be using wrong btw, as it means "clever" and right now he wants to be stupid which makes him calling them clever out of character. )

There's his first lot of dialogue. Then interact with him again and he says this shit

His reasoning?

There's a lot to unpack here.

Berdly tells Kris he must turn them down because he thinks he likes Susie and is under the assumption that she likes him back. Nowhere is it implied that he is not actually interested in Kris; it is only indicated that right at this moment Berdly's sights are set on Susie because there are things about her that he really admires, and so his interest is set on her. Notice how he refers to his life as a VN. That means visual novel. He sees himself as a man amongst a variety of love interests, and believes he can only choose one, as is the case with a typical visual novel, which indicates that Berdly thinks he is monogamous (I say "thinks" due to the popular theory that he might not truly desire romance at all and just claims to since that is what he currently equates any form of intimacy to). Among the people he has marked as love interests are Susie and Kris, and so therefore he is not necessarily uninterested in Kris. He sees them as a potential match, but they are not the one he's focused on.

He says Kris is being insistent about something. While this could be him misinterpreting them showing concern for him for romantic affection, as he does have this weird fixation on romance, this line of dialogue is actually really weird for a variety of reasons if we really look at it.

He says that Kris is being "insistent" on something, and that he "must turn them down." While it is easy to assume interacting with him caused Berdly to think that showing him additional concern by talking to him means you like him romantically, you must also consider the fact that throughout the game Kris is implied to say things on their own, but we ourselves never actually get to see what they are saying. Take for example here:

I'm certain this is the case with non cutscene moments, too, where you interact with NPCs and stuff. I can only really think off the top of my head to how even when u interact with one of the swords in ur inventory Noelle tells you to stop hitting you with it, and also there are times where Kris is moving on their own despite the soul not having wandered off like in the offscreen Ralsei dialogues, plus there's Kris removing their soul sometimes which always follows us controlling them... essentially they DO still have some control over themselves even when we are controlling THEM and they can still talk on their own, which I don't see how that doesn't include interacting with NPCs outside of battle or cutscenes. I just am too lazy to open the game up again and scour it for more NPC's responding to something we didn't hear Kris say, so instead I gave you an elaborate explanation of how Kris works and it works just as well so fuck you. But feel free to look for examples of NPC's outside of battle or cutscenes responding to something Kris probably said anyway and rb this with your findings that would be great.

Back to Berdly turning Kris down. Both of Berdly's dialogues are in response to something. This second line in particular looks really suspect, and makes me believe Kris may have actually done something overt in order to cause Berdly's focus to shift towards romance, and the reason Ralsei never says anything about it is so we don't notice that our character acted on their own- as he is definitely judging them for saying that LOL. I just don't see how it makes sense for him to just say that unprompted (granted, he is a weirdo, but in a cute innocent sort of way, and not the perverted incel freak some fans make him out to be but); it just feels to overtly a reply to something said to him than it does to him SIMPLY being interacted with.

Counterargument for this second point now: it's very possible that when we interact with Berdly, Kris did something to just comfort him, like put their hand on his shoulder or something like that, and them doing it more than once causes Berdly to mistaken the gesture for a romantic advance, and I was just over analyzing it because I ship them and I relate to Berdly which means I'm a nerdy idiot genius just like him. This still does not negate point number one, though.

3. Berdly is not disgusted by the prospect of romance with Kris. His reasoning for turning them down is because he's focused on Susie; nowhere is it said that it is due to their gender or appearance or anything like that at all. I assumed he was doing some hetero-normative thing with how Noelle and Susie are both girls and he's a boy but Kris lacking a gender and him not being like "eww no" to them indicates to me that he wouldn't necessarily mind something queer going on.

I want to look at the visual novel thing some more because I've honest to god never seen anyone else talk about it.

I think that he sees Kris, Susie and Noelle as potential partners. He's not interested in Noelle himself and says that he only pretends to be because he thinks she is. It's obvious he thinks that if he were to not, she might leave him, as this romantic interest he thinks she has in him is what he believes is the reason why she even tolerates him in the first place. Were she to ask him out (she wouldn't; this is from his perspective), Berdly undoubtedly would say yes, even if it isn't really what he wants, because what he really wants is to keep her around since he literally relies on her for his studies. He confesses to not liking her in chapter 2 because he wants her to know that his sights are set on Susie and doesn't want that to break her heart.

Susie is a new one, as he suddenly finds himself admiring her and confuses this admiration for her for romantic affection. He is undoubtedly going to continue trying to pursue her until he is inevitably not only shut down but learns about her and Noelle.

Lastly, there's Kris, who, besides Noelle, is one of Berdly's only friends. While he is their rival, he does show a lot of affection for them throughout the game, even back in chapter 1. In the library he tells Kris that he was worried about them.

He also offers them a random discount on the overdue book just really randomly, which is so sweet of him honestly. There is a layer of pretentiousness, smugness, and condescending-ness throughout his dialogue in the library, which is just him trying to prove himself better than Kris.

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It is implied/shown that he sees a lot of potential in them. He refers to Kris as the third smartest student in class, which, despite seeming like an insult at first, is still a bit of a compliment in its own way. Talking down to Kris is sort of a defense mechanism for him. I think this is displayed really well in the scene below:

He does, however, really care about Kris at the end of the day and it's clear he values them. I really want to bring up the scene where you give him the present. First, he doesn't even EXPECT you to be gifting him, and walks into the scene assuming you're not on his side, taking it personally when he sees you with Susie. Then, when you do give him the present, he's initially shocked, then genuinely really happy and appreciative of it, to the point that he kind of almost drops the snarky attitude. I also really want to note that he doesn't even say thank you. Like he doesn't even know how to react. Poor guy.

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Throughout chapter 2, we see that the two of them have played video games together, that Berdly trusts Kris enough to want to do puzzles with them while he's struggling to do them alone in the mansion, and so yeah, it can be concluded that despite Berdly's attempts to push Kris away and prove himself as their superior, he does genuinely care about them a lot.

So, Krerdly.

Krerdly.

The only thing getting in the way right now is that Berdly is focused on Susie. Though he might think what happened was a dream in the pacifist route, he probably is going to be fixated on her both there and in the neutral route due to now assuming he has a crush on her and her liking him back; he doesn't realize that he's mistaking his admiration for and desire to get closer to her for a crush. What will kill this for him is when he finally gets to see her with Noelle and realizes neither of them liked him romantically. He'd probably then turn to Kris and ask them if they liked him, since they're the one other person on that list of love interests I just did. And regardless of whether or not you say yes, he'd still be left thinking about them a little bit, and start to seek intimacy with them since Susie and Noelle are now fixated on eachother, and Berdly thinks he needs romance so he's looking towards someone who could potentially bring him that as well: his close friend who is still single.

And then you can date him and yay Krerdly real.

That's my theory.

Goodnight.

#krerdly #kris deltarune #kris dreemur #kris dreemurr #berdly #analysis #deltarune #deltarune analysis #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune chapter 2 #susie deltarune #krispy chicken #suselle #noelle holiday #ralsei #theory #speculation #shipping #Youtube

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s1ck-pupp3t · 2 months

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HOT, NEW, DELTARUNE, AU!!!!!

[IMAGE_FRIEND] Steals all of the teeth and puts them in a zip lock bag and sells them to the tooth fairy

LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE FOR More.....SCARY... DELT(A)R(U)NE......!!!

#deltarune theory #deltarune chapter 2 #spamton #spamton g spamton #spamton deltarune #deltarune au #my art #my artwork #I did it #Please love me #I have no teeth #But I must bite

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snowysobsessions · 2 years

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You know the message in the tab name of deltarune.com/chair ?

"But what if it could..." "...get darker than dark?"

A lot of people have discussed the idea of creating a Dark Fountain inside a Dark World. Which is pretty clearly implied to be something you can do through this page, and Berdly almost doing that in Chapter 2 before Ralsei quickly stopped him.

But I realized something when going back to the final battle with Queen. I think she actually name dropped these Dark Fountains within Dark Worlds.

[Text in image: Queen says "Focusing Into Her Blade, She Will Create A Neo Dark Fountain"]

Indeed, if Noelle had created a Dark Fountain in the Cyber World it would be a Dark Fountain within a Dark World.

Or as Queen calls it, a Neo Dark Fountain. Darker than dark.

So not "neo" in the literal sense of being something new, but in the way the word has been used in Deltarune and Undertale: Meaning something new, again, and more powerful than ever before. Like with Mettaton NEO and Spamton NEO.

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alpacacare-archive · 1 year

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Not to post knight papyrus on main or anything but

#huh #deltarune #papyrus #undertale #knight papyrus #please dont come for me i saw people getting VIOLENT over knight papyrus i want no part of that #i just think this is neat #i dont like theorizing and dying on theory hills (if you don't count dadster? id kill for that guy) but i do like the idea of #papyrus playing a larger role in this story #because his character fits the narrative and i also love him. a lot.#but please dont like. start fights in the notes. ill call your parents if you dont behave #its not that deep #anyway #when i played chapter 2 for the first time and saw this line i immediately thought GASTER cus pea brain and also one of his motifs #is the word interesting #but honestly i like this possibility much more #deltarune analysis #?

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hollyrogerbay · 8 months

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anyone else notice how Deltarune seems to be getting more advanced each chapter, diegetically?

chapter 2 introduces the Recruits system, and updates save points to show all 3 slots in-game. chapter 1 was not retroactively updated to include the feature - it's an in-universe change. (although i believe chapter 1 npcs are automatically recruited once the system is introduced.)

and is it just me, or does it almost sound like the soundtrack is getting more advanced, too?

chapter 1's soundtrack was almost all soundfonts, chiptune, more retro synths, etc. - and the same goes for chapter 2, mostly. (mostly except for Susie, notably. her and her maybe-synth, maybe-live distorted guitars.)

we don't have much to work with, so this may not be anything worth mentioning, but the three songs for chapter 3-5 we've gotten sound noticeably more "real," i'd say?

"Hometown Day" is definitely the least notable of the three in terms of this, but still sounds relatively "realistic"/live

"My Funky Town" was what gave me this thought in the first place. the more live-sounding guitar in the left ear, something about the drums i can't quite describe accurately, the electric piano being played/recorded live. of course, it's not entirely "live" sounding, notably the saxophone being straight from the Touhou soundfont. but still much more than anything in chapter 1 and most in chapter 2.

"Green Room" is an odd case in general, considering it's pretty much just a remix of "Hip Shop," unlike any other song i can recall. but, yet again, it does sound a lot less "digital," would you agree? more effects on pretty much everything, the spacey drums and electirc pianos, everything.

this may not go anywhere, but i figured it was worth noting. the idea of chapters becoming more and more advanced as each one is added could also definitely be theory-crafting material methinks

#my truth #deltarune #utdr #deltarune analysis #deltarune speculation #deltarune theory #<- not really a theory but could turn into one #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune chapter 2 #deltarune chapter 3 #deltarune chapter 4 #deltarune chapter 5 #deltarune ost #deltarune soundtrack

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sea-salt-sky · 8 months

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Deltarune and Party members

(hi this is my first post ever)

So I was re-watching Andrew Cunningham's comment response stream to his video on Kris's SOUL, and he said something about Noelle during the Weird Route that caught my attention.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxH4y3Jasb0PXrPCIRRccfB5VuC6JKIwnE

"It's sorta getting at like, rpg party members and how they don't necessarily make sense within the diegesis, like you can order them around, but how much free will do they have? it's lampshading that, by having you make Noelle do things she'd never do, and it… breaks her consciousness."

Got me thinking, we have Kris here as a metacommentary on what it's like to be a protagonist, but do the other 3 main characters exist as commentary on the idea of "party members"?

We have Ralsei, who just does what you say no matter what. He keeps saying this is a world where you don't have to fight, and calls out Susie for unnecessary violence, yet he won't complain when you tell him to fight. He's even surprised by the idea of you thinking of him as more than a lacky

"*H-huh? Y-you mean...

*(Y-you think of me as more than a lackey...?)"

In other words, this guy is like a Skyrim follower or something, being willing to just murder for no reason other than you said pretty please.

And then there's Susie, who rejects the idea of it being your party entirely in Chapter 1, and refuses to obey anything you say. She's the opposite of Ralsei in that regard.

And then there's Noelle, who only goes through with Snowgrave through manipulating her into thinking that she has to keep getting stronger, because Kris is her friend. And she doesn't think that her friend would ever lead her astray, or something like that.

Thoughts?

#deltarune theory #deltarune analysis #deltarune #deltarune chapter 2 #deltarune chapter one #deltarune chapter two #andrew cunningham #noelle holiday #susie #ralsei #weird route #deltarune weird route #deltarune snowgrave #snowgrave

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snowdewdreams · 8 months

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When I was playing Deltarune a while ago, I was doing some backtracking so that I could recruit all the monsters when I happened upon this line of dialogue:

You get this from inspecting that particular ferris wheel graphic, found in one of the areas where you travel with Noelle for a bit.

At first, there's nothing out of the ordinary with what Ralsei is saying. However, it's very strange that he has knowledge of Susie and Noelle's ferris wheel ride to begin with — he was not present for it and, to my understanding, Susie never explicitly explained what happened when she was alone with Noelle. To make this dialogue even odder, Ralsei is blushing in his portrait, suggesting he may even be aware of the event's intimacy.

It's common knowledge in many theorist's circles and to those who pay close attention to the game's writing that Ralsei clearly knows more than he let's on. This moment to me implies that he either has some strange omnipotence or knowledge of how future events may play out, which raises even more questions about that prophecy of his — how detailed is it? Is it some kind of divine foresight that predicts events that are fated to happen?

Regardless, Ralsei's enigmatic background and nature are one of my favorite parts of his character and I look forward to learning more about him in the future chapters.

#deltarune #deltarune theory #deltarune chapter 2 #ralsei #susie #noelle #deltraune theories

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nukedimplosion · 2 months

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Why I believe Spade King will be redeemed

The Spade King is a... controversial character to say the least. From what I've seen, opinions of him range from a complete monster to an abusive douche with little leeway.

So, making a post about how this villain will be redeemed in future chapters may seem like a slap in the face. Let it be known that none of this is to upset real survivors of abuse, but instead it is to highlight the many indicators I feel show that Spade King is not beyond redemption.

I personally have had this theory since around when chapter 2 came out, and time has only solidified it, but this is the first time I actually got the confidence to post it.

That being said, let's get into the evidence.

THE FOUNTAIN

In the 6th anniversary stream for Undertale, Fangamer played through an edited version of Deltarune with Toby Fox making comments about development, the characters etc.

When facing the Spade King, Fangamer talked about how they hoped Spade King had been a good dad 'before the other mouth grew in'.

Toby Fox then says this;

'I mean, I think that fountain definitely changed his behaviour. For sure.'

This quote is stated around the 3 hour mark of the livestream video below.

So what does this mean? You may want to argue that Toby was not be literal when he made this statement, and that the fountain was a simple temptation instead of something that directly effected his behaviour. But then there's the queen...

The queen seems to have also experienced this fountain brought phenomena despite only wanting to use it to serve the Lightners instead of oppose.

She threatens and attempts to kill the Lightners. She establishes a regime significantly more strict then the last. She won't stop going on about the Knight. These are all things the King does as well.

It seems that the fountain abstracts the behaviour of their respective rulers for the sake of the Knight.

Okay, so the fountain impacts the King's behaviour, great. Doesn't change the fact that he threatened his son, and refuses to apologise or acknowledge his wrong doing now the fountain is closed.

Well, that leads me onto the next part...

HIS SON

Let's immediately establish one thing; the Chaos King does care for his son. While how genuine that care is is debated by the fandom, I would like to make the case that he was a good dad and does want Lancer to be happy.

First of all is the quote about the fountain that Toby made in the anniversary stream, which was a reply to a comment about how Fangamer hoped that he was a good dad.

Replying then seems to indicate that the fountain did impact his ability to be a good father.

More importantly is his dialogue in jail.

Here, he asked directly if his son is happy, in hesitant, even reserved manner. This is in direct contrast to how he mocks the Lightners with his boisterous grin or cruel frown.

Remember when he was yelling that he'll 'KILL ALL OF YOU' while his subjects dragged him away? An insurrection led by his son, who he called a traitor? Despite this, he seems to hold no ill will towards his son or his fellow darkners (we'll get to that). This behaviour I believe was caused by the fountain, thus the attitude change.

And yes, I do acknowledge that he has lied for sympathy before (his act before Ralsei healed him in chapter 1), but this is different. There is no reason to lie at this point; there's no way they would believe him.

He also admits that if he HAD let his son go, Lancer would have just... bounced. He then calls his son a bouncy little pumpkin. This line is notably similar to a line right after Susie casts pacify on him, calling her a 'sweet little pumpkin', again hinting that he was a good dad before the fountain and his love towards Lancer isn't a lie.

'But' you may argue, 'Lancer was afraid! He knew his son was scared of him but kept threatening anyways!'

Which is a valid point, and is obviously horrible.

BUT combined with the fountain being an impact for his decisions, I think it is also a valid idea that there's more to it than 'The Spade King is abusive'.

Both the Queen and King are callous when it comes to the opinion and wellbeing of others. Queen spends the entirety of Chapter 2 attempting to force Noelle to do as she says, even threatening to kill her classmates (and crush) for the sake of her goal.

What King does is similar, making Lancer watch as his friends get killed because he didn't do as he said. It's cruel, yes, but this is another case where you can argue the fountain may have led to this mutual behaviour.

(You may argue that the Queen has the excuse of being a computer who isn't completely in tune with peoples emotions. This argument doesn't really make sense because she actively uses Noelle's emotions against her in a way that shows she understands how upset it makes her.)

I do believe that Spade King knew his son was upset and still went along with it. This post isn't some elongated argument for Spade King's sainthood.

But I do have to say, him being aware and still going along with it may explain why he's hesitant to talk about Lancer in his jail cell. He knows he messed up and is feeling guilty post-fountain, he's just too prideful to up and say it to the face of the enemy. What he did is not a show of Spade King's abusive inhernet nature but an example of the fountain clouding his full judgement at that moment.

Also, you may argue that Spade King was neglectful of his son, leaving him to Rouxls Kaard to be cared for. I do believe that there has been a bit of exaggeration on this point. Yes, he does put his son in the care of his employees perhaps more than he should, but he's also straight up a King. He's a busy guy.

'Oh, but he doesn't feed him, the poor boy is starving!'

Honestly, my big question is why he's cooking in the first place. He's a King, he has subjects literally fanning his son and he can't afford one chef? It seems like this is more a downtime thing he does with his son for the sake of family bonding (may explain where the food based nickname of 'sweet little pumpkin' came from) and he knows his son will be fed by his employees when he's busy.

Again, too dependent, but I don't see any signs of such an intense neglect to call him a bad dad.

Of course, this is more in the assumption category. It is possible the neglect is more active and that the King is just a douche, but I feel that we are being purposely mislead here.

Now, onto the final point.

HIS SUBJECTS

Let's talk about why Spade King did what he did.

Spade King hates Lightners, that much is obvious. He calls them scum, says that 'their existence goes against our own' and feels absolutely no guilt towards trying to kill them post-fountain.

Which isn't really not justified. Darkners were made to keep Lightners happy, only to be abandoned by them. The Chaos King has to watch as the kingdom, HIS kingdom, rotted without meaning. He had to raise his son with the understanding that he would never be 'truely happy' because the so called only source of happiness for Darkners left them to the wayside.

So, when the Knight came, is it really that surprising he would try to create a 'new purpose' as he said? Yes, perhaps world domination is a bit insane (maybe he's dramatic like that, maybe it was the fountain, he does hate Lightners so it's likely both) but the core of his ideals, that darkners can be something beyond what they are to Lightners is not only justified but correct.

In the scene where the gang are walking to the castle in Chapter 1, Lancer acknowledges how happy he is to be here, feeling like he's doing 'something important'. Ralsei replies that this is because he is serving the Lightners and that is the purpose of the Darkners.

Susie is notably uncomfortable, and dismisses Ralsei's point as 'weird purpose' talk and simply says that Lancer is just happy because he ate a weird berry. This is the first sign that the plot beat of Darkners only gaining happiness from Lightners is not just going to be an accepted status quo by the main cast and that there is likely to be more contention about the subject in the future.

(I would also like to mention that Ralsei in this scene asks if the Spade King is happy, in which Lancer very hesitantly says he's not sure.)

Then, in chapter 2, Ralsei is shown to be confused about friendship. He starts to understand that friendship is more than just being nice all the time and that he should be more 'Ralsei-like', meaning more like himself.

The problem is that he doesn't know what that is. He's spent all this time forming himself into the perfect companion but he doesn't know how to be himself. This is a result of his purpose, his wish to be the perfect Darkner for his friends. Now, his purpose seems more cloudy. Should he continue being the perfect little angel for his friends or should he become someone who is more genuine on their own terms, like what his friends seem to want?

While Ralsei is still doing everything he can for the Lighteners, he is slowly becoming his own individual, which is what the King wanted for all Darkners.

Then there's the general themes of control. Be it Kris, the secret bosses or the Spade King, all of these people wish to be more than the binds that control them. While the Spade King is acting on behalf of the Knight, he does so to free his people from the influence of the Lightners, to make purpose on their own terms and be their own people.

Just like how Kris wishes to be free from, you, the player, also making their own purpose and be their own person. May I remind you that the Darkners are media and toys, fun things meant to be enjoyed. They are in universe equivalents of video game characters, made to entertain Lightners, just like Kris, Ralsei and Susie are made to entertain us. The only difference is that the latter is closer to the forth wall.

So yes, while his world domination thing was wack, I believe the Spade King is righteous in his core values.

So why doesn't any other character seem to agree?

Ralsei completely believes that Darkners can only gain happiness from Lightners, Queen does everything she does for the sake of Lightners, hell, the town that the Darkners live in isn't named after the Prince or anything but you, a Lightner. They even call you boss!

At this point, the only character who cares for Darkners having a purpose outside of Lightners is locked in a jail cell.

Now, it is possible that Toby Fox introduces another character who has Spade King's beliefs but is less nasty about it, but that's lame. It's also possible that Ralsei has an epiphany and realise that Darkners deserve better and that becomes the result of his arc. Better, and I can see him going in that direction, but I still think it's less satisfactory.

In any route in which you don't get all recruits, the King is the only person who acknowledges this and is actively upset about it. Even the Queen is hesitant yet still ultimately okay with leaving her subjects behind because the Lightners are onboard.

The goofy cutscene where he asks for cashews? Gone. He simply remarks on how you left them behind like Lightners left the Card Kingdom darkners behind and tells you to 'Begone'. The first line is said with a smile, knowing that he's been proven right but after that, the smile leaves and he's just... cold. He seems genuinely upset about what happened to the Darkners you left behind, portrayed with a '...' in his second line and the loss of his smile. He is not trying to trick you, you simply disgust him at this point. He cares for Darkners in a way that no character has shown yet (aside from Nubert (the goat))

This is why the title of this post is why Spade King is GOING to be redeemed and not me saying he SHOULD be. The difference in levity between an interaction with the Spade King post full recruits and not full recruits indicates that by getting recruits, the King is more willing to acknowledge you and, perhaps with time, your points and intentions. If Spade King was supposed to be this abusive bastard, having characters such as the Queen be on positive terms with him seems strange. You can argue nuance all you want, but the Queen, a character who we're supposed to like, being friends with a character we're supposed to end up hating seems like a strange writing decision no matter how you slice it. Especially if he's a straight up child abuser.

(yes I know she might not know but are you really expecting an epic drama where Queen finds out he's an abusive scumbag and calls him out? Having a morally positive character be friends with an abuser can work but in this situation, it is objectively a weird choice and I will argue on that)

He asks for cashews in this chapter and suckles out a giant hamster water container. Maybe the second serves to make him look pathetic, but then the Queen apparently has the same thing but bigger. The cashew bit is played off as endearing more then anything.

This is all because you got those recruits. Without them, he doesn't even talk to you. Therefore, it can be concluded that Spade King does have a chance. After all, if all of him was completely against you and believed you would be bound to abandon them, he would not be talking to you in any route. It's only when you prove it directly that he stops.

Toby Fox uses the recruit dialogue to endear you to him, which I presume is to set up a redemption if you continue to go down the recruit everyone path. By proving him wrong in future chapters, I presume he will talk more about himself and his ideals and perhaps listen to the Fun Gang and his son in turn.

CONCLUSION

My prediction is that over the course of the chapters, players will see more and more endearing aspects of the Chaos King, with things such as his theoretical neglect and love for Lancer being properly clarified and elaborated on, but only if you keep all recruits. He will still be sceptical, perhaps even leading to him going against you when the Knight returns, but he will ultimately fight by your side if you have successfully convinced him through your treatment of the Darkners that Lightners aren't bad after all.

Hopefully by the ending point, Ralsei would have had enough of an extential crisis to hear the Spade King out on his whole 'Darkners deserve to be happy without the Lightners' deal. Susie would absolutely be on board with her friends finding happiness without needing Lightners (I can see her arguing with Ralsei about it in a future chapter).

I can see him sacrificing himself, but I don't want Lancer to deal with that.

The final point I would like to mention is his place in the narrative. A lot of people have argued that all he is meant to be in an objective evil to prove that Ralsei was wrong about fighting never being the answer and that a redemption would ruin that, and yes, that is his role is chapter 1.

But if that was his only purpose, bringing him back as the only person to actively acknowledge the consequences of your lack of recruits seems pointless. Giving him moments of endearment and clarifying he loves his son is unnecessary. You, again, can argue it's for the sake of nuance but I think at this point I have clarified that there is a lot more to it than that.

Besides, what would be more satisfying to see than the most stubborn character of your journey, the only one you could not convince in the chapter he appeared in, joining your side as a result of you sparing every darkner you can?

In a game with only one ending, making routes like full mercy seem worth it is kind of important if you want players to bother caring about those mechanics. The few dialogue changes we do get really don't cut it.

But witnessing the development of a character who you started off hating but then becomes your ally due to your decisions and comes to help you in your darkest hour?

That would be worth it.

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Thanks for reading this theory! It's been a while since I've written a theory like that. Do say your opinions, I know this is a desisive topic but I am still happy to hear people's perspectives!

#deltarune #spade king #chaos king #deltarune theory #deltarune analysis #deltarune chapter 2

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m-chromatic · 1 year

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#deltarune #Deltarune theory #Deltarune knight #Deltarune chapter 2

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skullndaisy · 2 years

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Conversations With Susie; Part 2

To be continued...

Part 1 can be read here.

(Part 3 can be found here)

#deltarune #deltarune comic #susie #susie deltarune #susie x noelle #ralsei deltarune #deltarune ralsei #noelle deltarune #deltarune fanart #deltarune chapter 2 #deltarune theory #deltarune kris #kris deltarune #kris #kris dreemurr #ralsei #sans deltarune

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kooldewd123 · 7 months

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heartbreaking: character you love gets a redesign representing their growth throughout the story but you like the old design better

#been watching a lot of deltarune theory videos lately and it reminded me how much cooler susie looked with her eyes covered #the chapter 2 portrait sprite is fine but the new overworld sprite has never stopped weirding me out #uuh just for some of other examples #pearl and garnet at the end of su #peridot at first but it grew on me #oh and serena from pokemon #i feel like i should like her second outfit more than i do but something about it in motion doesn't feel right to me #koolmathgames.com

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eksvee15 · 6 months

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MORE PROOF THAT MEGALOVANIA IS THE PLAYER'S THEME

THANKS TO DELTARUNE AND SUSIE FOR PROVING US RIGHT ONCE AGAIN!

So we all have this constant argument of whether MEGALOVANIA is Sans' fight theme or the Player's (it's not Chara's. Stop) fight theme. Well, I believe Deltarune's use of the soundtracks solved that issue for us.

There is a firm belief that in Undertale, and by logic Deltarune, the theme heard is the theme of who initiates the battle. Undyne starts the battle against us, both times we hear her theme - Spears of Justice and Battle Against A True Hero. Flowey ALWAYS starts the battle, so we hear his themes - Your Best Nightmare and Finale, also counts for Hopes and Dreams given he and Asriel are one and the same. And it's pretty evident that whoever has the first turn DOES NOT ACTUALLY MATTER, it is misleading and is canonically not actually relevant - Undyne herself specifies she's letting us have the first turn, in any fight, she's fair, and ALLOWS US the first turn. Sans gets the first turn to catch us off guard, which is what he does during the ENTIRE fight, ATK 1 DEF 1 yet takes multiple attacks to be defeated and will obliterate your health bar, suddenly has laser weapons, dodges, can manipulate space and gravity, teleport, stops time, his entire character is "surprise bitch", no wonder he gets that first turn - heck on the third turn he won't even finish his "beautiful day" speech and start attacking MID SENTENCE

There is, aside from Sans, one other occasion where the Player initiates the battle - that being Monster Kid. Yet MEGALOVANIA doesn't play there, instead, we hear the OST "In My Way" which is ONLY played against Monster Kid and Flowey in No Mercy. But I believe it's intentional, think of your first Genocide playthrough - you still kind of feel iffy, like it's wrong. It's not much of a challenge as it is a chore at this point. You just killed Papyrus. You just killed Toriel. Two people that have shown love, care, and so much genuine friendship to you, it feels awful. You're a danger, but not yet, a megalomaniac. (Side note, I think Etika's playthrough of No Mercy shows us how LOVE affects the actual player, because killing Toriel is a pain, killing Papyrus feels absolutely awful, but then when you get through Undyne the Undying? Etika celebrated beating her, then stopped and said "Wait no, why am I celebrating, I just killed her". THIS. LV affects us and how we view the Undertale characters, from being friends and caring about them, to being a challenge to overcome in the end. And not a lot of people realise that fact)

Now that I've established all this, where does Deltarune come into play? Well, specifically in Chapter 1, we fight Lancer a number of times. And he has that memorable bouncy theme when you fight him, Vs. Lancer. We all know that theme. However there is ONE moment where we DON'T hear Vs. Lancer DESPITE facing Lancer in battle.

The Susie V Lancer battle in the Card Castle's prison.

There, Susie alone engages battle against Lancer. And we know she engages because Lancer doesn't want to fight her, heck he even avoids to attack her at some point. The battle engaged is ENTIRELY Susie's intentions to put Lancer in his place. And the theme that plays, is Vs. Susie. Because SHE engaged the battle. So it's not Susie against Lancer, it's Lancer against Susie, despite US controling Susie. Just like it's Sans against us, despite us being in control.

This is proof. Proof that we hear the theme of who engages in a battle. You could also take as back up proof the Spamton NEO fight in Snowgrave, because he has every reason to engage against Kris - they're threatening everything Spamton COULD have, so of COURSE Spamton engages, furthermore because Kris goes from puppeted to puppeteer in his eyes. Sans never engages in battle against us. We engage against him. Because we're trying to get it over with.

MEGALOVANIA is most definitely the player's theme in late No Mercy run, and we know this thanks to Susie evolving the opposite way in Ch1 that we do in No Mercy.

Thank you for reading!!

#undertale #deltarune #undertale theory #deltarune theory #deltarune spoilers #undertale spoilers #sans #megalovania #susie #lancer #vs susie #vs lancer #theory #undertale genocide #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune chapter 2 #undertale player #monster kid

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