#did i mention he's rescuing robin in this issue

[adjit]

So what really happened in Red Robin between Dick and Tim?

Because I am constantly seeing misrepresentations of it, I want to talk about the actual events of Red Robin, and Dick and Tim's relationship during it. It's a favorite storyline for fandom to use and riff on, and so for people who haven't read the source, it's hard to know what is canon and what is fanon.

Honestly? It might be easier to just go read the issues. The majority of what I'm going to discuss here all happens in the first 4 issues of Red Robin (though I cover some stuff through the first 12), and I enjoyed that entire run, but if you'd rather hear a random internet user tell ya their take on it, read on.

This is going under a cut because it's long. But TLDR? Dick is not the bad guy in this situation. No one is the bad guy in this situation. If we had to name one... poor coping skills? And though they do fight, they ultimately reconcile because Tim and Dick are brothers who love each other.

Damian

First things first, let's talk about Damian. Did Dick give Robin to Damian without even informing Tim, so Tim had to find out by Damian showing up in the Robin costume? Not exactly.

So, some technicalities. Damian had worn the costume before the infamous Batcave scene. In Batman: Battle for the Cowl #3, he's given it by Alfred and goes with Squire to save Tim. So, not only has Damian worn the costume before, Tim has seen it.

However, arguably this is also before Dick has accepted the mantle, so the scene in the cave is still notable as it is Dick specifically informing Tim that Damian will be his Robin. And Tim had also worn the costume out for a one-time rescue months before he officially became Robin (also enabled by Alfred), so I'm still of the idea that the cave scene is The Scene about the Robin mantle being passed down.

That being the case, I'm still going to defend Dick anyway.

Firstly, he told Tim before Damian showed up. But it's true that he didn't give Tim a choice, and that Tim was NOT okay with it.

Damian shows up and talks some shit, Tim punches him in the face, and then storms out.

Overall, it went pretty terribly! But I'm of the opinion that there was no good ending here. Damian needs the family connection that the mantle of Robin would give him in order to feel accepted, not to mention the close supervision that the duo of Batman and Robin would provide. But Tim is extremely attached to Robin 14 years after this comic and he still hasn't given it up and would never be happy being asked to give it up, especially when he's already lost so many things. One of them was going to end up unhappy. (Fwiw, I'm of the opinion that Dick is right, and Damian needs Robin a lot more than Tim does. But that doesn't mean that that decision wouldn't hurt Tim, too.)

Arguably, Dick could have been a bit nicer when doing this, but let's be fair to Dick: his father figure has just died, and suddenly he has to be Batman, and he now has a young child he is partly in charge of. That's a lot to be dumped on his lap, not to mention that he didn't want to be Batman (he initially refused despite Bruce's wishes, and only took it on after basically being forced to after Jason tried to take on the mantle, killed a bunch of people, and injured both Damian and Tim), and said child is a highly traumatized child who is still in the process of basically cult de-conditioning! So Tim could also be asked to be a lot more understanding than he's being. But Tim's too wrapped up in his own grief to see that. Just like Dick's too wrapped up in his own issues to properly deal with Tim.

He has a lot of shit going on and he can't juggle it all. Tim is coping incredibly poorly with his own circumstances. They clash and neither comes out happy. It sucked. But to say that Dick is the bad guy here... He made the best decision he could when given no right options. I do think that he made a mistake here in his approach, but to call his entire relationship with Tim into question due to it... doesn't make as much sense to me (especially because of the events which follow!)

Self-isolation

So, did everyone abandon Tim? Did his family forget him and leave him out to dry?

Absolutely not. The opposite, really. Tim pushed everyone away, despite them repeatedly reaching out to him.

One thing to note about Tim here is that he is self-isolating extremely hard. Even after their argument about Robin, Dick keeps trying to reach out to Tim. Tim pushes him away. Tim pushes everyone away. And this is not even subtle- it's shown in the text very clearly.

Multiple people try to talk to Tim, and Tim absolutely refuses them.

Tim is pissed even at the idea that Dick might be checking up on him. And Tim and Steph's relationship is super rocky right now, and he takes her concern for him poorly. Part of that can be attributed to an ongoing fight between them, a lack of trust implicit there, but combined with everything else it's also clearly Tim pushing away all of his lifelines.

Cassie also comes to try to check on him- after he dodges her attempts to contact him, she flies all the way to Gotham. But when told that a man who everyone knows as dead, and whose body was recovered and buried, is still alive, she doesn't believe him. (And considering Cassie has already dealt with Tim's grief regarding Conner and his suuuuuper rational reaction there, one might understand even more why she doesn't believe him right away.) And Tim immediately pushes her away for it. He doesn't try to give her any explanation, doesn't respond to her concern, he just immediately cuts the cord.

(And just a note that when Cassie doesn't know who else to turn to about Tim? She turns to Dick! Because she knows how important Dick is to Tim. And yes, right now Tim is mad at Dick and resents that Steph and Cassie go to him, but that doesn't change the fact that when people think about caring for Tim, Dick is the first person they go to.)

Dick and Tim's argument

Did Dick refuse to believe Tim, despite Tim having evidence, call him crazy and threaten to throw him in Arkham? NOPE.

That is entirely fanon. And one of the more pervasive, and annoying, misrepresentations of Dick's character, as it causes people to talk shit about him.

So. What actually happened? (We're getting into full pages here because I am not letting anyone get this conversation twisted.)

Dick shows up and speaks to Tim compassionately, though decisively, about the fact that Bruce is dead and they need to learn to move on and deal with that grief in a healthy manner. He then offers help to Tim once more, and is rejected, Tim instead opting to start a fight in classic emotionally-repressed Bat tradition. (Which, sidenote, do you think they do this just so that panels during a long conversation are more dynamic instead of two people standing there talking to each other?)

Tim pleads his case to Dick....to an extent. Notice, however, that he never mentions that he has any reason to believe what he does. Doesn't even try to convince Dick to believe him, really. Just insists that he's right after he makes a good case on why he does in fact sound crazy.

And then, Dick offers help. He suggests that Tim talk to a therapist. This person is, notably, NOT ARKHAM ASYLUM. Isn't even secretly Arkham, because they're in Metropolis!

And, frankly, the idea that someone suggesting therapy to his brother who is dealing poorly with grief has been equated to "calling him crazy and trying to get him thrown in jail/committed" is absolutely bonkers to me. I know that it's more likely that someone escalated the stakes for drama in their fanfic or something, and for some reason that's the version that circulated, but from here to there is a LEAP. And for people to claim it's canon is frustrating to say the least.

And finally. Tim tells Dick to let him leave. And Dick does. Dick stops trying to stop Tim, and lets him go. He trusts in Tim enough to let him do what he thinks is right, even if Dick himself disagrees. He does it because Tim asks him to.

Is it a mistake? Maybe. Does it make Tim forgive Dick for choosing Damian as his Robin? Definitely not. But it's very clearly not because he doesn't care, not because he's too busy to pay attention to Tim. It's an act of respect, of treating Tim as an equal who is capable of making his own decisions. In that way, it's showing his trust to Tim.

I have an entirely separate post on the subject of why Dick not believing Tim is narratively supported to make later (EDIT: posted here!), so I'm gonna go on a little Tim rant here instead. Because this post isn't long enough.

During this time, Tim is consistently begging for people to believe in him, while also refusing to play all his cards. The picture that started his hunch is never brought up. Frankly, I'm not sure that even if he did show it to everyone that people would believe him, but I think it's telling that he doesn't.

First, I kind of see it as Tim engaging in a "relationship test". They're the kind of thing that only people who are deeply insecure or in a bad place think to do- if I stop talking to all my friends, how long will it take people to notice? Who's going to notice that I'm upset without me saying anything, who really cares about me? If I share an insane theory, who is going to believe me point blank?

They're the kind of thing that is....not healthy in any way, shape, or form, and really aren't fair to the people you're testing. Sure, someone "passing" the test may show that they care for you (and, ultimately, the only person who believes Tim without reservation is Kon, once he comes back- and that unquestioning belief and loyalty is meaningful), but "failing" the test doesn't mean that they don't care. And they're ultimately a sort of self-sabotage, because you know that most people are going to fail because you know the test is unfair.

And that's exactly what it is: self-sabotage. As previously mentioned, Tim is massively self-isolating during this part of the arc, and pushing people away because they "don't believe him" is just one facet of that self-isolation. But he also doesn't try to get them to believe him, doesn't even give them that chance, because his ultimate goal is not to actually get anyone on his side, but to push everyone away. That's not to say that he secretly doesn't want people to believe him, but... he's acting mostly irrationally. He wants people to believe him but won't let them close enough to meaningfully give them the chance to do so.

Second, as much as Tim says that he's positive he's right and he's going to prove it, he's straight up lying, and he's actually not that sure at this point. And he's probably terrified that if he does show his proof, that someone will see it and still not believe him, and he'll have to face the fact that his only piece of evidence is extremely flimsy and that his conviction is based much more on grief than it actually is on logic.

So. Yeah, no one believes him. And that does suck, and it's a hit to him. But he didn't exactly give them a chance. He's preemptively cutting people out before they have a chance to hurt him or point out where he's wrong.

Tim is still a pitiable character here. He's a disaster and a wet puddle of a man who is living through the worst time in his entire life. But he's not a poor victim, scorned by his family and the world at large, thought to be crazy for no reason at all! Instead, he's (much more interestingly, imo) a kid dealing with his grief incredibly poorly, self-isolating and refusing every outstretched hand, clinging desperately on to his last hope that maybe his world hasn't changed as much as it seems like it has.

Blackest Night

Blackest Night is a huge crossover event that happened during the Red Robin run; technically speaking, you can skip it without missing anything in the plot of Red Robin, but it does have some good moments that highlight Tim's mental state and his relationship with Dick.

So, Tim leaves Gotham, but when Black Lantern Rings start bringing a bunch of people back from the dead in the form of zombies, including Dick and Tim's parents, Dick calls him back to Gotham. And Tim, looking at the decaying zombie corpse of his parents, is also arguing that he can save them.

When faced with an evil zombie that is trying to kill him, Tim still says "I can still fix this, I can save him". And Dick, as compassionately as ever, tries to talk sense into him. It's the exact same situation as with Bruce, but this time Tim is absolutely wrong.

And with this situation as a parallel, I think it's a lot clearer how unreasonable Tim's mental state is. He might seem like he's just a misunderstood genius in Bruce's case because he happened to be right, but the fact of the matter is, he's not thinking clearly. And he'd cling onto the same hopes even when he's wrong. With Bruce's case, he got lucky.

Also! This panel.

Even with all of this between them, Tim still answers Dick that he trusts him, with no hesitation. Of course.

Reconciliation

So, does Tim come back to Gotham, replaced and forgotten, and become isolated from the rest of the Bats?

Nope! There is, actually, a reconciliation of sorts between Dick and Tim. Admittedly, there is no scene where Dick outright says he's sorry, and Tim says he forgives him. But in my reading, there are interactions that serve a similar purpose, if you read between the lines.

After Tim finds proof of what's been going on with Batman, had a whole thing with the League and the Council of Spiders, and blown up a bunch of League bases, he returns to Gotham where Ra's is enacting a plan to get revenge for Tim acting against him: destroying Batman's legacy. Everything he loved and everything he built is in the crosshairs.

And when he's trying to figure out what Ra's is planning, he meets back up with Dick.

Tim is spewing crazy theories, and with absolutely no proof or explanation, he turns to Dick and asks him to trust him. And this time, Dick tells him, Of course. The fraction between them that preceded Tim's departure from Gotham is repeated, and this time Dick tells Tim he trusts him, and asks what he can do to help.

(This time, Dick does call Tim crazy, while he's muttering to himself. And then he chooses to trust him anyway.)

Granted, this is not an actual apology. But it feels like a second chance. One more bid for connection, and this time Dick meets him in the middle and reciprocates.

Anyway, since when do siblings actually verbally say "I'm sorry"?

And then... quick summary, in case you want the real details for the following events:

Ra's sends assassins after all the people Batman cares about to distract Tim from the fact that he's getting Hush (who is impersonating Bruce Wayne) to sign over Wayne Enterprises. But Tim wins because he finally stops self-isolating and gets his many friends to protect everyone who needs protecting while Tim faces off against Ra's. (Which is, ultimately, a climax of his character arc for this story- reaching out and trusting people again. Team up guy back in action!)

Tim's able to keep Ra's busy long enough that Lucius can file the paperwork to make him the majority shareholder of Wayne Enterprises, thwarting Ra's' attempt at a takeover. However, Ra's wins the fight, and Tim ends up plummeting to his death out of the window.

And then Dick catches him.

Later, Dick asks Tim how he could have planned for Dick to be there to save him.

And Tim says "You're my brother, Dick. You'll always be there for me."

This scene has been talked to death, because most people are at a consensus: this is a fucking lie. Tim didn't know that Dick would be there, and was fully prepared to die.

However! I'm not here to rehash this. I just want to add my take. It's a lie, but. Tim is a good liar. And every good liar knows that the best lies have a grain of truth in them.

I do believe that Tim didn't know that anyone would be there to save him. But I also believe that he fully means what he says here, that it's not just to placate Dick. Tim is telling Dick that he trusts him, that he believes in him, that they're brothers. It's forgiveness.

I could keep citing all the places where Tim shows an unconditional belief in Dick that happen after this arc, to prove that their relationship is truly mended after this and that they don't continue fighting, but that happens often enough that you could just read any comic including Tim and Dick and I'm sure Tim will say some fanboy shit eventually.

So, that's it! If you take nothing else from this post, take this at least: Tim and Dick LOVE each other, and they might fight, but they forgive each other, and if you try to talk shit about Dick Grayson, Tim will be one of the first to fight you, guaranteed. Suffice to say:

#Tim Drake #Dick Grayson #Batman #Red Robin #dc comics #batfandom #this post is half Dick defense half I can't shut up about Tim #actually half of this is just summarizing red robin and then a fourth is dick defense and a fourth is me rambling about tim #and like...fandom is transformative and ultimately if you want to make Dick your bad guy you Can #but at least know what the original was and where you're differing so that is a Choice and not just something you do bc it's what's done #I originally was going to delve into Dick and Tim's relationship in general #including first meeting and Tim's Robin tenure #(parts of it at least there's a lot of Robin time) #(and I haven't finished the Robin comics oop) #but this post got out of hand. So now it's just a recounting of what happened in Red Robin with my analysis of the text and their relations #and it's still a Lot #also I haven't read ALL the batman comics leading up to this arc so if I'm missing any context I'd love to hear about it! #mostly I know I'm missing some stuff with his beef with steph

[artiststarme]

Exes and Oh’s

Based on a prompt from @nburkhardt and some comments from @i-less-than-three-you. I hope you guys like it and please leave your thoughts in the comments!

Title brought to you by @kissaphobic-kas

~*~*~*~

When Robin told Steve that she and Nancy were dating, he was happy for her. Of course he was, his best friend was finally in a true relationship and he was thrilled that Nancy could be who she needed. He had no reason not to be happy and supportive of them. And yet, there was still something holding him back from giving them his full support. 

While it had been literal years since they dated, Nancy had broken his heart. She’d torn it from his chest, trampled all over it, looked at the bottom of her shoe, and called it bullshit. Deep down, Steve was afraid she’d do the same thing to Robin. 

Robin was his best friend and he didn’t want to see her hurt. He’d already had to coach her through the disappointment and dejection of losing the potential of dating Vickie and he’d seen how upset she was after that. He couldn’t even imagine how she’d react to getting her heart broken by Nance or how depressed she’d get when Nancy called her bullshit. It had taken Steve months before he could even look at Nancy without feeling his heart break and he certainly didn’t want that for Robin. 

With every happy smile he gave them came a look of wariness and after a few weeks, everyone started noticing it. 

Robin started creating more distance between them, Nancy started glaring at him when she picked up Robin from work, and even the kids started calling him out on it. Dustin, in particular, made sure to voice his thoughts on the matter. 

“You have to move on from Nancy, Steve! She’s with Robin now. You had your chance with both of them and now it’s just pathetic!” Dustin told him one night when he picked him up from DnD. The little bastard had staged some sort of subpar intervention for him. 

Steve was not amused and was quick to come to his own defense. “What the hell are you talking about? I don’t have a thing for Nance or Robin. I’m happy for them!” 

“Steve, we can see that you still like Nancy but Robin is with her now. You have to get over her,” Lucas said gently. The other kids nodded in agreement and even the other Hellfire guys tilted their heads in agreement. The only kid that didn’t nod or make a nasty remark was surprisingly Mike Wheeler. He had a look of understanding in his eyes like he understood why Steve was hesitant and it was throwing him off. 

Steve sputtered at them, unsure of what to say to make them believe that he truly was 100% over Nancy Wheeler. Eddie, as usual, came to his rescue.

“Hey, listen up you little shits. Steve says there’s nothing going on so that means there’s nothing going on. Drop it or your characters are going to take some serious hit points.”

The kids grumbled a little bit but they did drop the subject for the time being. They all shuffled around to collect their items before marching outside to plan yet another ambush on him, probably. 

Then there was Eddie. His boyfriend that he’d been dating all summer, the best friend turned boyfriend that no one knew about yet. Steve could tell that he was curious. When wasn’t he? But he was trying his best to be respectful despite the obvious tension between Steve and the rest of the Party. Steve couldn’t help but love him just a little bit more for having his back when no one else did. 

Steve mentioned it to Eddie the next day while they were lounging around the Munson’s trailer. “You know I don’t love her still, right? Like Dustin said? That ship has sailed, definitely.”

Eddie’s eyebrow quirked and his face brightened with a cocky smirk. “Yeah Steve, you had my dick in your mouth an hour ago. That ship hasn’t just sailed, it sank to the bottom of the ocean and disintegrated into dust like your heterosexuality. What’s the real issue that’s got you so upset?”

Steve gave him an unimpressed look at his crass but he had a point. Eddie had absolutely nothing to worry about between him and Nancy. He deserved to hear the full story. 

“You remember what happened at Tina’s Halloween party?” Eddie nodded. He’d already told Steve in the past that he’d heard the entire train wreck of a conversation through the thin walls of Tina’s house so he’d had a front row seat to their breakup. “Nancy really hurt me. She called our entire relationship bullshit. She called me bullshit! And that really fucked me up for a long time, still does sometimes. I can’t even hear the word ‘bullshit’ without feeling like a failure even still. I just… I don’t want Robin to have to feel like that. You know?”

Eddie thought for a second before he nodded. “You’re worried about her, that’s understandable. Nancy hurt you and she might hurt Robin too. But she might not. And Robin knows the risks, you told her about how Nancy hurt you, right? She knows what she’s getting into and she’s willing to take that chance.”

“Um no, I haven’t told Robin about it.”

Eddie’s head jerked over to him and he looked at him in shock. “Why not? She’s your best friend, why wouldn’t you complain about your crappy ex with her?”

“Well first of all, that crappy ex is her current girlfriend-” Steve started. 

“I mean before she started dating her and you know it-”

“Second of all, it’s embarrassing. What was I supposed to tell her? ‘Hey Robs, I wanted to let you know that Nancy broke my heart and hurt my feelings because I was a bad boyfriend and I don’t want her hurting you’? That wouldn't go well.” Steve shook his head. No, he didn’t quite know how to fix things with her but talking about his past heartbreak wasn’t going to do it. 

“Stevie, baby. You just have to talk with her and she’ll understand. You guys are Platonic with a capital P soulmates. Just tell her and she’ll understand,” Eddie murmured to him. He kissed the back of Steve’s hand and rubbed the back of his neck. 

“You really don’t care?” Steve asked him. 

“Do I care that you’re concerned for your best friend? Stevie, you could be doing so much worse. Caring for your friend isn’t a red flag. I was accused of murder, which is a pretty big red flag, and you’re still with me,” Eddie laughed. 

“Well that’s because you didn’t do it!” Steve protested. 

“Steve, you could do anything and I would still love you,” Eddie told him earnestly.

“What if I actually killed someone?” 

“Then we’d have to bury the body and then move because my reputation can’t handle any more murder accusations.”

What was Steve supposed to do in response to that besides kiss him?

He did end up talking to Robin a few hours after his talk with Eddie. There were tears, hugs, and a particularly memorable shovel talk between Steve and Nancy. Everything went back to normal and it stayed like that until Mike Wheeler walked in on Steve and Eddie making out. Then, the tentative understanding that existed between them flew right out the window. 

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#Steve told Nancy that if she hurt Robin he would steal one of her guns and shoot her with it #she told him that if he even tried to touch one of her guns she would shoot to kill #Robin and Eddie watched them like a tennis match until Nancy started threatening Steve about his relationship with Eddie #Then Eddie conveniently disappeared through the back door #I'm too tired to proofread this- if you find a typo let me know #stranger things #steddie #fanfic #steve harrington #eddie munson #robin buckley #nancy wheeler #mike wheeler #lucas sinclair #hellfire

[wasted-women]

ROUND 1D, MATCH 7 OUT OF 8!

Causes of Death & Propaganda Under the Cut:

Martha Wayne

Cause of Death: Shot in an alley way with her husband; in some versions, she dies of shock after her husband is shot

Propaganda:

Why is she great? We don't know! We only know that she was killed. But more people know that about her than most any other character in this category. The loss of Batman's parents is one of the most culturally well-known character-exists-only-to-die-to-make-the-male-MC sad. While Thomas Wayne also dies, Martha's death is used significantly more often by other characters as a lasting impact on Bruce -- the loss of a caring maternal figure connected to his inability/refusal to healthily understand and express his own emotions. The misogyny inherent in focusing on Martha's loss as a cause of Bruce's emotional issues is what makes this fridging.

I feel like in so many versions of Batman (like the Chris Nolan movies) they always mention how much his father meant to him and the way that he impacted him. Why do we fall? So we can learn to get up. That crap. But there is never any info on his mom. Who cares she died! The only version I know that mentioned the mom extensively was really the Earth 1 comics and that's nothing compared to all the ways the dad is always more relevant.

Sarah Essen Gordon

Cause of Death: Shot in the head

Propaganda:

[No Propaganda Submitted]

Stephanie Brown

Cause of Death: Tortured for several days before succumbing to her injuries

Propaganda:

Steph was a wildly popular character who was made Robin for a couple month specifically in preparation to kill her off in the War Games cross over event. During her time as robin comics fans responded so well that one of the writers asked if they should keep her alive and let her have a real run but an editor refused. Instead she was horrifically punished by the narrative for... doing exactly what every robin has done always. Not listening to batman, rescuing him, trying to earn his approval. Unlike the other robins she was murdered in a way that implied some kind of sexual assault while none of her friends or mentors looked for her. Did i mention she was 15?

#wasted women poll #round 1 #round 1d #martha wayne #sarah essen #sarah essen gordon #stephanie robin #batman #poll tournament #character polls #polls #poll bracket

[hoffmannwrites]

On My List

1  - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 + 1 Masterlist

Author’s Note: I'm gonna just post part 2 now because the response has been overwhelming and also I need to ride this train until it runs outta steam, yfm?

Pairing: Steve Harrington x Eddie Munson

Description: 5 Times Steve and Eddie kiss as friends, and one time they don't.

Warnings/Tags: Everyone lives, Nobody dies, 5+1, Kissing, Fluff, Idiots to Lovers, Friends to Lovers, some pretty brief mentions for drinking, smoking, being inebriated (the gang is drunk here but nothing too bad, just in a fun way), uhhh they're gay your honor, no beta we die like Barb, vague medical issue, fainting, let me know if I missed anything?

Every Breath You Take

Two

The second time Eddie and Steve kiss it’s not really a kiss at all. Robin and Steve are working a shift at Family Video - well, trying to work at least, because Eddie’s there which means everyone’s just sort of dicking around. Steve is processing some returns while Robin and Eddie argue about some sort of incomprehensible music shit. They’re both such fucking nerds about it that it makes Steve’s head hurt hearing them discuss the rhythm vs the beat and the symbolism of the song's accompanying music videos. Steve doesn’t understand why they have to analyze everything, why they can’t just like shit.

He’s not really paying attention until he registers the panic in Robin’s voice as she suddenly pushes off the counter and says Eddie’s voice just a little too frantically. Eddie has slumped slightly forward over the counter, eyes rolled a little too far back, and not responding to her calls for him. Steve immediately jumps into action, thinking about seeing Max in an eerily similar situation, about the fits Will had when he came back. Steve grabs Eddie and lays him gently in the ground, immediately crouching over him to do CPR, not bothering to check for a pulse or breathing. Just starting compressions, counting the way he learned how while hanging out at the hospital waiting for Max and Eddie to wake up. He couldn’t just sit there, and the hospital offered free training courses in shit like this, so he went. And he’s so glad he did as he starts doing rescue breaths on Eddie, ignoring Robin’s “ohmygodohmygodohmy-“ as she struggles to remember Hopper’s number when she finally stops freaking out enough to grab the phone. It doesn’t matter though, because by the time Steve is halfway through his second set of 30, Eddie’s eyes are fluttering open and he’s breathing heavily, but just fine on his own.

“Oh thank fuc-“ Robin starts as she drops to the ground on the other side of Eddie. “Are you okay? What happened? You just-“ Robin starts rambling, panicking that this meant the worst wasn’t over.

“Robs. Give him a minute. Go grab a water bottle,” Steve softly commands, his instinct to protect and help and heal outweighing his ability to do anything else. She does as he asks, and Steve starts to help Eddie move to a sitting position. “Easy does it, man. You can keep laying on the floor for a little if you need.”

“No, no. I’m okay. Sorry. I just, uh, had a minute. It happens sometimes. Happened a lot more when I was little. Stress, ya know? Was real bad right around the time I started living with Wayne. Had a really bad couple of weeks after Bonham died, too. But since, ya know- everything, it’s been happening again.” Eddie explains, rubbing the middle of his chest where Steve had previously been pressing. Steve just nods as Robin hands him the water bottle, watching, waiting for everyone’s adrenaline to slow.

“Jesus, dude. I think you almost cracked a rib. Way to put those muscles to use,” Eddie jokes, in between sips. Steve cracks a smile, but his eyes are still filled with worry. “Thank you for trying to save my ass, but in the future, I’m just fainting. No CPR required. Just make sure I don’t hit my head on the way down,” Eddie explains.

“Sorry,” now it’s Steve’s turn to ramble. “I just went into panic mode and I didn’t even check for a pulse or-“

“Don’t sweat it.” Eddie cuts him off. “I appreciate you wanting to save my life. Again.” He adds that last part a little quieter, knocking shoulders with Harrington. As Steve helps him to his feet, he adds even quieter “You sure you didn’t just wanna plant one on me again, Big Boy?” And Robin is too busy fussing over Eddie and asking questions about his fainting and yelling at him for not warning anybody that they’re both too busy to notice the blush that creeps up Steve’s neck and the way he flexes his hands like touching Eddie hurt. 

A/N: Not so fun fact! John Bonham, drummer for Led Zeppelin died in 1980 after a heavy drinking binge. This would have been absolutely devastating to a young Eddie Munson, as it was for everyone else with ears and a soul at the time.

Also, Steve does the Pride and Prejudice hand flex every time he touches Eddie. Convince me otherwise. I dare you.

#Steddie #steve harrington #eddie munson #Steve x eddie #Steve Harrington x Eddie munson #stranger things #fluff #hoffmannwrites #5 + 1 #5 + 1 fic #everyone lives/nobody dies #they're gay your honor #idiots to lovers #friends to lovers #stranger things au #stranger things fanfiction #Steve Harrington saves the day #kinda #on my list

[fancyfade]

Are there any canon Damian and Babs interactions? I couldn’t find any. What‘s their dynamic like? Same goes for Babs and Tim

Babs and Tim is easier so I will start with them :P

I think this panel + commentary (link) in Showcase 94 showcases their dynamics well. Tim is an easy kid for babs to get along with. He appreciates her help and gets along with people she gets along with. He sometimes gets a little smug about her not knowing his identity at first, but that seems to be just a joking thing between them. They have a pretty good rapport and I can look up specific issues for them if u wish.

Babs is very protective of Tim, and she authorizes Huntress to use lethal force to rescue Tim in Joker's Last Laugh.

Damian is harder. Heads up: I will not be counting anything past 2011 because that is just no. I don't like how they handle her post new 52. So we've only got a few interactions to use.

In Batman: Streets of Gotham #6, Damian questions Babs' usage of resources (sending Huntress instead of him after Man-Bat) and Dick complains "This is what I have to put up with" and Babs generally agrees with him (He's a charmer all right).

In Batman and Robin 2009, Babs tries to prevent Steph from interacting with Dick and Damian in the field (and is justified in this as Steph accidentally freezes Damian immediately afterwards XD). In her internal monologue Babs is annoyed at Steph, but when she speaks out loud she seems to be defending steph and again is sarcastic w/ Dick about Damian ("Tell me you didn't enjoy the quiet ride home") and dick agrees with her ("I did"). dick refers to steph as reckless and babs refers to damian as murderous. but they do not interact directly much in this plotline, its more dick and babs talking ABOUT steph and damian.

in general babs seems like another adult who does not have a lot of patience for Damian in the 2009 era batfam, which is almost everyone in the batfam at that time. they do work together when they need to, damian will follow her orders (just while complaining about it) and get stuff done. And i don't think this is really unrealistic or OOC for babs.

First, as we've mentioned, nearly NO ONE in the batfam has much patience for Damian verbally at this time (including dick, as we've seen in all of these interactions Dick has either been instigating the "haha damian's insufferable" stuff or agreeing with it).

Secondly Babs is just not a person who has a lot of interpersonal patience or tact to begin with. She cares about people. A LOT. but she still messes up a lot, and she can get pretty brusque when she's stressed. I think that if she was put in a position where she HAD to interact with Damian more, she would be a little bit more understanding (b/c second chances are a big theme for her (trying to reform savant, link1, link2). But she doesn't have to be patient with Damian, because he's not her responsibility, and he's hard to get along with, so she doesn't.

I think they could have a lot of potentially interesting interactions, but most of them would be skill based (babs helping Damian with hacking, for example) and not very touchy feely. Neither of them are very touchy feely characters.

#anon #ask #damian wayne #dick grayson #barbara gordon #batman: streets of gotham #batgirl 2009 #robin #oracle #batfam

[lavenoon]

(I was gonna start this with a scream, and then realized I am, uh, very hyped for these chapters knowing full well it was Sun suffering times kjfhdkgh)

Ok, ok, so first Sunset!

I was laughing so much at the fact that Sun is already so competitive on the caretaking side of things XD Since his love language is acts of service, it's so freaking funny that he's like "Mealtime is my territory, back off partner" in a lighthearted manner kdjhfk And then offering to make breakfast for them, this competitive goof XD

(Sidenote: The worry at the commitment issues dksjhgkjfdhg I could practically hear him worrying about that possibly meaning that dating wouldn't be in table after all (well actually my first thought was marriage but then remembered oh yeah, they aren't even dating yet kdhgkjfdh))

But ahhh, as soon as he mentioned breakfast I knew he wouldn't be back for it. Robin just looking at the clock in worry knowing something must be wrong.

Ohh, and the little reflection about them not really being intimidated of Dawn, but being scared that him taking pride in being a good agent would make him disapprove of them (cough cough, hide reverse AU under the rug, don't let canon Robin in this point of the timeline see how that goes regarding that specifically because uuuuuh, yeah XD, there was an adjustment period in that one)

And ahhhhh I know Moon gives them grief for it later, but I found it so touching that they DID eat something, thinking about how Sun wouldn't want them to work on an empty stomach ;o;, getting better at taking care of themselves because of the people that care about them!!

And gosh, River! I find her so interesting, because she genuinely seems to care for the agents, not just as workers but as people, even though in her position she probably has to be really careful about it. This time there is no option to turn a blind eye, or dance around the subject though. Whether she was implying that getting fired was a very real possibility or not, she did want Dawn to come back to be able to hear about it, better than not having him return at all even if they did.

And omg, Abra Fez is quite harsh. Not to say The Agency TM isn't but they really roughed him up. Ha, the pep talk comment got a chuckle out of me though XD He keeps calm and was sure he would get out on his own, even if he was nervous, which is expected given he is a star agent! (My morbid curiosity makes me wonder if Moon was awake to see the moment they tore his ray off, or if that was what woke him up maybe, since keeping his composure might have been a bit harder on that one gkldhgkl) And awww, Sun. Even when he is the one being rescued, he worries about not letting the backup get hurt. I assume he feels responsible for them, since even if he was taken by surprise, it must sting that he got caught at all.

And gkdfjhgkjh poor Robin must have been so distraught as they searched all the rooms for him, and the reunion was touching, but also I laugh at how you switched the roles compared to the comic you made because Sun was the one swooning, and Moon was like "focus, lover boy". But you know, Sun had a rough day, he can simp as a treat XD

And aaaahhh, when they get back! River really is putting herself on the line for this one, even though she's trying hard to stick by the rules. I imagine it must be a tough decision either way because in a way, when this gets to the higher ups, she would also be questioned on why she didn't separate them at once and instead let this go on. Seems she really has a soft spot for Robin, hehe. And Sun commenting how he needs to learn from them, because it's true! He might be the smooth talker, but Robin is the one that has been at this place for long, so they know how much they can push and how to deal with River too!

After, what caught my attention the most was Moon though. Sun was trying to deflect, maybe automatically because he's on edge from everything, going for banter about how Moon wants to be with Robin now, but Moon is having none of it. He knows what Sun went through, and he's being very direct about him getting a break. It's just... so sweet of him? We've seen them banter over their worries before, but the fact that he was so direct about this got to me dfkñgjhfkj

Hehe, the comment about getting Robin to take care of themselves being the hard part though X3 But ahhh, y/n really needs those days off, since it's obvious such a risky event so close to the last one has shaken them up a lot. Moon is on caring duty tonight.

And maybe Sun will try to make up for the missed breakfast the next day as well haha

All around, awesome couple of chapters Luce! <3

I just realized I can still start answering in the morning, even if I won't have time to finish

So without further ado, let's get into it!

Spoilers for Sunset and Nacreous Cloud under the cut, though if you've read Chaotik's ask it's already too late gfdhsj

It was also a little time for scary agent Dawn, so he got a little bit of revenge for the hurt! Grab and squeeze <3

Sun: I actually cook for you, you know? I don't just slap some cold ingredients together - Y/N: Sun, honey, I'll have a light dinner (sandwiches) and you can spoil me for breakfast, it's not a competition I promise Sun: That breakfast is going to be so good (and then it wasn't </3)

It's not even that he feels territorial about it, a good bunch of it is just him joking around and teasing Moon behind his back! But there is that crumb of fishing for reassurance - "You still like what I make you, right? This isn't going to replace that because it's easier?" And Y/N, in love with two idiots and unaware, so readily replies "I'll eat anything you two make for me whyever would I not"

(The worry is also the thought "Wait, are you not actually oblivious, just pretending to be because you're scared? Do we have to change tactics?" meanwhile Y/N is like "Wait why did I say that he'll think I'm scared of relationships! ... Why is it important that he doesn't think that." and then neither of them actually analyses it more because they get distracted <3)

I had a lot of fun with that whiplash - the joking and soft promises to Y/N alone, waiting, knowing something is wrong... Had to do it, you know? <3

And yeah, definitely! We all know that what we approve and disapprove of is biased - that one person that could say "I like soup!" and we go "Yeah I bet you fucking do" - so Sun now looks at little dangly charms on bloody batons and thinks "ahw they're so adorable" meanwhile in Reverse AU (and oof, Hatchling!) Dawn is just mentally picking it up with two fingers and flinging it far away from him </3 That's how it is sometimes, and so their anxiety isn't quite unfounded! And they think so, too, making it worse

Moon gives them grief for it, but when they get home and quietly explain that they simply couldn't eat more, he softens, too. It's easy for him to only focus on nutrition and the lack of it, because he's never had anxiety twist his stomach into knots and nausea making swallowing anything impossible. They tried, because they didn't want their boys to worry (and because yes, the loved ones override is strong in Robin - something I admittedly projected, but also felt like it would resonate!)

River is my blorbo from my brain fr - I never planned to make her that much of a presence, now I'm so so close to making a ref sheet for her. If I get to work on the Glamrocks, I might just make a reference for her, too gfhdjs She's been a supervisor for a good while - and she's always been Robin's supervisor. She watched a greenhorn agent first butt heads with the established work force (and with her, too - baby Robin didn't have the fear that everyone else had for the "if you have her full attention, you're fucked" supervisor) and then harden at the continued rejection. Rise the ranks, complete missions, and yeah, it's not like they're friends and River felt that need to intervene at the isolation. But when Dusk (and Dawn) show up, and the former starts working with Robin, she sees them warm up to the newbie. By the time Sun moves in with Robin she's already aware that Dusk is a good influence, and together they tackle missions that no one else would dare to complete. They have a few bumps, where they distract each other more than they focus, but all in all? River looks away, and decides to let things play out. She keeps testing them, just a little - fishing questions, until the breaking point in First Aid, when she wonders just how little these three share (she assumed they would find out much sooner), and gives Robin the information they're missing. It's intentional. She still has to follow protocol - Simon Says is not a merciful employer. But she has enough credibility within the agency that her plan can work - so when there's no hiding anymore, she helps her idiot trio. She doesn't want to be involved much more, she's not a mentor - but she cares, and she sees these three care for each other, so so much, and so she helps them in the way she can. Pretty sure if Dawn hadn't taken the lead, she would have suggested the three take the fall, but stay in town - "Let's talk again in a month, after Simon sees what kind of bullshit firing you would invite." She'd frame it as a unpaid leave being sort of its own punishment, so after that they'd be fine. She didn't need to, obviously, they found another workaround - but she's on their side, more than the elusive and distant big boss

The rays sure are sensitive (: I do think Moon woke up with the very sudden, very uncomfortable pain from the dislocated shoulder though. That happens before the ray, when Dawn first got overwhelmed, so he's been there for the entire interrogation, including the very cowardly "Okay, dodging the one still functional taser hand, let's make this hurt" ray ripping. Until then Dawn tried smooth talking (threatening) his way out of the situation, but after that they, uh. They kinda activated the mule kicks, oops. But even so, yeah, Dawn is a star agent for a reason - he would have gotten out on his own, too. It would have taken a bit longer, and wouldn't have been as easy, but he stayed calm and has good motivation. As impressed as he is with the quick reinforcement, he immediately feels responsible - those are agents (as he assumes plural) who are only in danger because of him, and now that he can prevent it, why would he let anything happen to them? Especially if it's just ground support, who doesn't see action as often!

(And then it's just one, feral in their concern neighbor, and he has to process that a little. Oops <3)

Fez is harsh, because they caught a hostile agent in their new (attempted) branch office, someone with a lot of info on their rival agency. They don't hold back - but Dawn doesn't either. He didn't just go down with the first hit obviously, and there's a reason they decided to keep him as immobile as they can. It's the rougher side of their job, and one I haven't touched much before, but it was fun to explore!

So I explained some of River's reasoning already - but yeah, once the even higher ups hear? She'll definitely receive some scrutiny, even if she gives her full reasoning. They did good work together, none of them seemed to realize, and separating them after the address change would have been obvious, too (see Zugunruhe, lmao. River was not the higher up who greenlighted that transfer in that timeline). So that's why she has to be more careful with the cover up, and get some results to also use in her argument.

And yeah, Sun is very used to his own scripts, but he doesn't know River like Robin does! Because Robin spent a lot of time testing the limits (more or less unintentionally), something Dawn never dared and Dusk never cared to do. Gotta sprinkle in some of that senior agent and newbie dynamic still! (Though Dawn and Dusk are pretty established at this point, too)

Moon... Moon was stuck the entire time, during a time when he should be out, and then even later for that talk with River because he's just not good at that kind of stuff, and he has a lot of pent up frustration. He felt useless, barely a backseat driver, stuck in that uncomfortable situation, all while his routine would demand he do something, because it's his time. So when Sun is deflecting Moon has no patience for it. He had to watch, without being able to intervene, for most of it all - he was awake before the switch time because of the pain Sun endured. By the time they're out and safe and got to keep their jobs it's around 2AM, maybe - and he's been up for around half a day already. he felt all those seconds tick by, too. He's feeling restless, and not in the mood to entertain bullshit. Too much pent up concern, and both Sun and Robin get the brunt of it.

I also just... I really wanted some Moon time, after these chapters were very Sun centric. That's how it is sometimes, yes, sometimes one boy gets more attention than the other. But for something so major in the timeline he couldn't be uninvolved, even though that sucked for him (sorry Moon </3)

And yeah, they're all taking that time off, and it'll be some funny "No you just cared on me, now I get to fret" switcheroo as they're all pretty rattled and need to feel in control again. Lots of cuddles that still don't clue Y/N in, but it's fine, we know they'll get there, soon! <3

They definitely get that breakfast though, you know it <3

And ahh, I'm so glad you enjoyed it!! I had so much fun writing it (especially once the dam broke on Saturday - before that, words were kind of hard, though also honestly still fun), and I was very hyped for all these little things - explain how HQ finds out about the identity reveal, set up the introduction for the Glamrocks, Simon says namedrop, and exploring that post reveal pre confession dynamic between the idiot trio! I'm really happy with the reception so far, glad it's hitting well <3

#answer let luce #chaotikanvas #accidentally undercover #1.7K words of a reply and im guesstimating (im bad at that) another 1K for your ask #879 words that's not too bad for a guesstimation #but yea yea yea I was so so hyped to get this out it just kept getting more and more important fhdjs #went from “canon Dawn love” to “oh hey what if I revamp that doodle page -” to “omg HQ finds out” to “A B R A F E Z” #sucked at keeping it all a secret given how talkative I am on discord but it still hit well!! im so happy!! #thank you for your thoughts I am still chewing on them <3

[addictedtostorytelling]

Hi! I hope this ASK finds you well.

I have always been curious on the possible conversations between CSI Team Graveyard when they found out about GSR after Sara's Rescue (Living Doll/Dead Doll). I have read a couple of fanfics but I am interested in your headcanon.

Do you think all of them readily accepted GSR as a couple or there is/are person/s that might blame Grissom for Sara's abduction? If Grissom isn't dating Sara, Natalie would not have kidnapped Sara.

Do you think Catherine or Brass would have been upset that Gil did not tell her/him about GSR even though they have been friends for a long time?

Will there be someone who will remember a memory that confirms GSR has been ON for a long time?

Will Team GY help in confronting Ecklie not to be stringent regarding lab policy when it comes to GSR? so Ecklie will not fire GSR...

Will Team GY found out that GSR is living together?

Will they be shocked about GSR living together?

Is there anyone in Team GY including Brass/Robins/Super Dave that have suspicions and has proven that they/he/she is/are correct?

Do you think Brass would have mentioned the interrogation scene in Butterflied (04x12), in which he will tell to Team GY as evidence of Grissom's deep love for Sara?

Do you think Catherine would have been horrified with her Lady Heather scoop to Sara during TGTBTD since she found out about GSR?

Do you Greg/Nick/Warrick will be jealous or resentful to Grissom because of GSR?

Who will pry Grissom away from Sara's hospital bed so he can get food and sleep?

Do you someone will go to GSR home to get clothes/toiletries for Sara/Grissom and make sure Hank gets a dog sitter? If yes, will this someone do a little snooping inside GSR's home?

Will anyone confront Sara for not telling them about GSR since they can't confront their Boss Grissom?

Do you think Ecklie has a prior conversation with Grissom before Ala Carte (08x02) since Grissom would need approval for his LOA to take care of Sara during her recovery?

Do you think Hodges will be full of himself telling anyone who can hear that he knew all along about GSR?

Do you have headcanon dialogue about my questions?

Sorry about my very long ASK.

I always appreciate your response

hi, @hiei29!

so in order to tackle this litany of questions, first we have to acknowledge that not only does canon not give us much information to go off of regarding the issue of “the team finding out about and reacting to news of grissom and sara's romantic relationship following sara’s abduction” but what little information it does give us is more complicating (and confounding) than helpful.

obviously, in the moment when grissom blurts out that natalie is targeting sara in order to take away “the only person [he] ever loved” as an act of retribution for the death of ernie dell, we only briefly get to see team graveyard's stunned (silent) expressions before grissom then immediately remembers the detail about forum user noturlittlebisquedoll and rushes out of the room, leaving both the team and the moment behind, after which point both the investigation and the episode move on.

from then on, there is never really a second of pause in the desperate rush to rescue sara until she's actually found and safe, so the team can't really afford to take any time to react or process the news of grissom and sara's romance, much less ask questions about its logistics or try to retroactively fit pieces of the puzzle together, until the events of episode 08x01 “dead doll” are concluded.

unfortunately, because the episode ends with sara's rescue—and even her rescue still in progress, as she has yet to arrive at the hospital at the point when the episode actually concludes—we are never then given access to the immediate aftermath (if there is any) to grissom's gsr revelation to the team, and particularly not as, within the universe of the show, there is over a four-month time jump between the events of episode 08x01 “dead doll” (which takes place, in-universe, on 05.18.07) and the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart” (which takes place, in-universe, on 10.04.07), which purposefully skips over any kind of fallout there might be during that timeframe.

however, while it might be natural for us as fans to assume that there is fallout during that four-month period of time that we simply don't have access to, the show itself then complicates this notion by what it presents in episode 08x02 “a la cart,” when sara first returns to work and we are shown our initial glimpses of how things have shaken out for team graveyard in this new “post-gsr reveal” era.

as i talk about here,

in some ways, the idea that sara is away from the lab (and grissom away with her, for the most part) for over four months seems very viable, but in others, it’s difficult to accept.

on the one hand, it does make sense that after enduring such intense physical and psychological trauma—severe dehydration; broken bones; shock; severe sunburn; numerous abrasions and lacerations to the face, hands, and arms; possibly internal injuries and organ damage; etc.; to say nothing of the ptsd—sara would not return to work for several months, and particularly not as her job is one that requires lots of stamina and dexterity to fulfill.

however, on the other hand, if over four months really do elapse between those two episodes, then sara should, by all accounts, be much farther along in her physical recovery process when she returns to the lab than what we’re shown, specifically in terms of her facial injuries...

moreover, one would think that there would have been more discussion about her and grissom’s relationship by their coworkers in the time while they were away from work than what little there seems to have been.

are we really to believe that in over four months of knowing about grissom and sara’s romance, nick and greg have never discussed the subject with each other and compared notes prior to the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart”? if so, it seems odd that they haven’t.

from a storytelling perspective, it’s understandable that the writers wanted to save some of the questions surrounding this “brave new world” of grissom and sara’s romance being a known entity to their teammates and employers to be answered at a point when the audience was actually around to hear what got said rather than just dropping us into a situation where the answers had already long been given, as doing so allowed them to play off of the anticipation and curiosity we felt in a productive way in-episode.

i mean, that moment when we first start to see sara walking toward ecklie’s office but we’re not shown her full person right away is just a fun tease, you know?  

however, the fact that said questions are shown to still be lingering four plus months after the fact in show time is also, frankly, weird and does in some ways strain credulity, just in terms of human behavior.

like.

had the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart” taken place six weeks after sara’s rescue, that would’ve been one thing, but since they take place over four months later, that’s another.

by that point, it’s just odd that there seemingly hasn’t been any larger conversation among the members of team graveyard regarding grissom and sara’s romance. it’s odd that ecklie apparently hasn’t been able to pin grissom down to talk since his return to work. it’s odd that whatever disciplinary action the department is going to take against grissom and sara for their violation of lab policy hasn’t already been decided upon and implemented. it’s odd that everyone is just starting to determine how they feel about grissom and sara being a couple, as if they’d only found out about that they were one very recently.

and all that oddness makes it difficult for us as viewers to figure out how to interpret the whole situation.

there’s so much that just plain gets skipped over, falling into the time gap between those two episodes, never to be brought up again.

there’s so much that given the existence of that time gap just doesn’t really make much “real world” sense.

and even beyond what is skipped and what is nonsensical, there’s also this—i don’t know quite how to describe it—but almost outright refusal on the parts of the writers to see some of the plot hints they’d made previously through to their logical narrative conclusions, as doing so would require them to place more mainline focus on a romantic relationship than they were at that time comfortable giving.

like.

in s7, it is consistently implied that grissom and sara have good reason to fear that various teammates (including nick, warrick, and catherine) might, once they found out about it, be upset with them for lying about their relationship and/or not approve of said relationship, given the fact that they work together. however, come s8, we are never given any indication that anyone on team graveyard is at all upset to learn that grissom and sara are together and that they’ve been lying through their teeth to everyone about their entire lifestyle for the last 2+ years. there’s no sense that anyone feels at all betrayed or confused or offended or even has any professional qualms about the potential legal implications of their actions.

i mean, what grissom and sara did is something their friends could have reacted to both personally and professionally, possibly taking issue with it on the level of “we’re supposedly friends, but you guys lied about something super important for a very long time. how are we going to trust you after this?” AND/OR on the level of “you guys lied about something that affects us all professionally. your relationship status might call into question the legitimacy of cases we solved together. it could lead to overturned verdicts. lawsuits. hurt the overall reputation of the department. affect the future of our team. and you guys made us complicit in this whole mess, just by virtue of our association with you. you unilaterally decided that you were okay taking on these risks without giving us any opportunity to weigh in on that choice, let alone decide for ourselves. what right do you have to play with our work and our careers that way?”

and yet the show never got anywhere close to broaching these issues or depicting these potential reactions, despite having raised the possibility for them previously.

see, for example, in episode 07x13 “redrum,” sara and warrick’s conversation about how sara hates deceiving people and warrick hates being deceived, which obviously has some big potential gsr implications and yet is never followed up on in any way after warrick becomes aware of grissom and sara’s deception following episode 07x24 “living doll.”

in a way, it’s like the writers were saying, “grissom and sara were worried that their friends would be mad if they found out. but guess what? they weren’t! of course everyone is just happy that they’re happy. yay love! good guys would never be against love.”

—which would maybe be a fine conclusion for the storyline to have arrived at eventually; a kind of “all’s well that ends well,” “eventually everyone came around to it” kind of beat.

but the thing is, not only do we not see any exploration of any more complicated feelings about the gsr reveal play out on our screens in episode 08x02 “a la cart” or later episodes, but there’s really also no suggestion that such feelings may have existed at any point during the time gap between episodes 08x01 “dead doll” and episode 08x02 “a la cart,” either. there’s no indication that anyone ever had to “go on a journey” to arrive at the point of being okay with everything that happened.

and the fact that there isn’t is, again, given previous characterization cues, frankly, odd.

while in general, the writing of the early seasons is solid, this place is one where i personally find it weak because there was story there to be told, but the writers deliberately avoided telling it because they didn’t want to delve into something that could potentially be messy or awkward.

this is one place where they dropped the ball by not probing deep enough.

and that’s not to say it’s entirely unrealistic that the team would eventually be accepting of gsr, and especially not four months in to them having found out the truth, but it is to say that the show doesn’t even bother to justify why everyone is being so cool about the issue; it just presents it as a given that they are. 

there’s really no characterization work done to show how characters who had previously expressed opinions that at least suggested that they might be opposed in principle to two of their coworkers having an illicit office romance—for example, catherine, who had always been outspokenly against the concept of “fishing off of the company pier,” or nick, who has always gotten his feelings hurt when lied to (see episode 07x13 “redrum”)—could have plausibly come around to accept grissom and sara’s coupledom by the time that the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart” are taking place.

it’s all just very much glossed over.      

what we get is a complete nonreaction from the team going both backwards and forwards across the narrative line.

the storytelling just plain “doesn’t go there,” either to justify why it is that everyone is okay with what happened OR to show that maybe everyone isn’t so chill with how things were handled after all.

there’s nothing to show that it currently is or even ever that it might have been difficult for greg, who has always had a crush on sara, to come around to the idea of her being with grissom or that catherine might resent grissom for jeopardizing the integrity of the team in order to date one of their subordinates. it’s just assumed that everyone finds the situation copacetic (and that they always have) because, really, why wouldn’t they? the narrative acts as if the question doesn’t even need to be asked, let alone answered.

the subject just basically gets dropped after the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart.” from then on, it’s just accepted that grissom and sara are together and that everyone is cool with the fact that they are.

the new normal is already firmly in place, bearing no residual evidence of how it came to be that way to begin with.

so.

all of the above is to say, answering your questions is going to be difficult because there is such a dearth of discussion in canon on this topic. very little is even actually implied, and, really, we have more questions than answers.

the best we’re really going to be able to do is to wildly speculate.

with that disclaimer in place, if you’re interested in wild speculation, discussion after the “keep reading,” below.

__

we’ll take your questions one at a time, okay?

do you think everyone on team graveyard readily accepts grissom and sara as a couple? is anyone upset either about them getting together or the manner in which they did so?

as per what we see in canon, it seems like everyone does accept grissom and sara as a couple—or at least we’re not shown anyone who outwardly objects—by the time the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart” are taking place.

that said, as i mentioned above, just because “blanket acceptance” is what we seem to see in canon at that point doesn’t mean a) that’s necessarily what we should see—or at least that it’s not what should be shown to us without some explanation—OR b) that things necessarily always were that way.

there is actually a lot of canonical evidence to suggest that various members of team graveyard could or even should have been upset with the news of grissom and sara’s relationship for various reasons, at least to start out with.

certainly the show itself never touches on the issue, but the possibility does exist that at least somebody—if not multiple somebodies—might’ve been upset with grissom and sara initially and we just didn’t get to see it during that four-month time gap. 

as mentioned above, catherine has frequently over the years expressed her patent disapproval of workplace relationships, opining that they never work in the long term and often foment awkwardness in the workplace when they inevitably flame out (see episodes 04x12 “butterflied,” 06x03 “bite me,” and 07x23 “the good, the bad, & the dominatrix”), so it stands to reason that she at least potentially might not be thrilled with the idea that two of her coworkers had been having a romantic relationship on company time—and especially not when their doing so could possibly have ramifications for the team, their cases, and even her own career trajectory. 

she also just might not understand the relationship itself as a concept.

by s7/s8, catherine and sara have finally developed a pretty good working rapport with each other and certainly get along much better than they did when sara first moved to vegas. however, that’s not to say catherine would necessarily get why grissom would choose sara for his romantic partner and/or approve of his choice.

as i talk about here,

specifically for catherine, while she has over the last few years come to respect sara a lot more than she did when sara first arrived in vegas, she has also always had this kind of view of sara as a “kid,” remaining highly aware that she’s got 10+ years of life and work experience up on her.

in all honesty, though she has come to view sara as a friend on her own terms, she’s never quite understood grissom’s attraction to sara and has only been able to rationalize it as a kind of “okay, well, he’s obviously going through a midlife crisis” deal; otherwise, it hasn’t really computed for her why someone his age might want to be with someone who’s still so incredibly young (and, in her view, oftentimes markedly immature).

while i can see paths down which catherine could eventually be persuaded to support the relationship—in the 20+ years of their friendship, never has she seen grissom so happy, and the fact that he is is worth something to her—and even to accept that her general opposition to “fishing off of the company pier” as a practice notwithstanding, gsr is somehow an “exception to the rule,” i don’t necessarily think it would be automatic for her to feel entirely at ease with the situation.

like.

yes, in episode 08x01 “dead doll,” she is going to reassure grissom of the chances of sara’s survival and play the part of the good, supportive best friend, showing up to help him find the love of his life with nothing but words of encouragement and actions of aid, and she’s definitely going to be thrilled and relieved and happy when sara is eventually rescued, but in the days and weeks afterward, might she wonder what the hell grissom was thinking in getting involved with a subordinate (and especially one fifteen years his junior)? could she possibly be pissed that grissom and sara had undermined the work of the team and the lab through their reckless behavior? might she be somewhat judgmental about their choices? feel just kind of bewildered that they of all people had ended up together? just plain not see what appeal sara would hold for grissom as a life partner, given her youth and (seeming) immaturity? 

sure. certainly. no doubt.

i mean, i’m not saying she’d be actively anti-gsr or that she’d hold a grudge about what happened (and particularly not forever), but i am saying there is at least the potential with her for some more complicated feelings about the issue than what the canon narrative actually depicts.

she might have to process some things. make a conscious decision along the lines of, “you know what? i’m just gonna have to let this go because done is done. they did what they did, and now whatever happens, we’re all just gonna have to deal with it.” just take a deep breath and move onto the next thing.

i mean, it’s a real possibility that she wouldn’t just immediately be on board with this whole sea change.

the same goes for warrick, who, as mentioned above, has in the past expressed his resentment at being deceived and who might then experience at least some initial upset that grissom and sara had not only lied to him and the rest of the team but had done so for so fucking long.

while i think he’d be less perplexed at the fact of the relationship itself than catherine might be—he has a good enough read on grissom and sara both to recognize some of the more deep-seated ways that they’re compatible—he still might not feel as if grissom and sara were justified in playing roulette with everyone’s careers and the integrity of the team in the ways that they did. much as is the case in episode 07x13 “redrum,” he might be offended that they had essentially chosen to make him complicit in something that could potentially affect his future without giving him the choice to opt out.

again, that’s not to say that there’s no way he might ever forgive them or that he couldn’t eventually come around to see why they felt they had to do things in the manner that they did, but it is to say (once again) that it’s not necessarily a foregone conclusion that he might take some umbrage to the way they’d chosen to conduct themselves.

he very much could be annoyed that they’d lied and he might require an apology before he could be expected to come around to them being together as a concept.

he might be somewhat hurt that they’d felt the need to lie in the first place (i.e., “we trust you with everything. why couldn’t you have trusted us with this?”).

along those same lines, out of everyone, nick has the perhaps the greatest potential for upset about gsr.

again, looking to episode 07x13 “redrum” as a guide, we can see that nick takes it hard when his team family lies to him, not only on a professional level but also on a personal one. 

he might really have a hard time understanding how grissom and sara could justify going to such extraordinary lengths to keep everyone ignorant of their living situation—it’s no small feat to hide the fact that you’re cohabitating from your team of trained observer coworkers; there’s some real and deliberate planning that would go into maintaining that kind of illusion for as long as they did—and find that it was difficult for him to trust them going forward, questioning how much he really actually knew them at all.

he might be angry that they felt they couldn’t trust the team to have their backs and keep their secret for them or at least support them in bringing the truth of their relationship to the administration.

he might start to second-guess significant moments from his history with the two of them, wondering how many of their interactions with him were really “real.”

while, again, i don’t think it’s entirely unrealistic that eventually he could come around to being okay with the whole situation—and especially after he got to see “gsr in action” and realize that grissom and sara were still basically the same grissom and sara he had always known, not significantly different as a couple than they were “individually”—he might be the member of team graveyard who needed the most time to cool off in the wake of everything; the hardest sell, as things were.

either before grissom and sara got back to work or afterward, he might end up having some kind of outburst of the “how could they/you lie to us like that, man?” variety. then afterward, he might be standoffish with them for a while, acting curt toward one or both of them when they were forced to work together.

eventually, he might end up having to hash it out with one or both of them, confronting them about the breach in trust.

like warrick, he might require an apology before he felt things were okay.

of course, canon gives us no indication that nick is at all upset by grissom and sara’s choices or that he ever was, as he is (quite literally) the first person who greets them in their public debut as a couple in episode 08x02 “a la cart” and is nothing but warm and accepting toward them when he does so.

but that’s one of those areas where i feel like the show glossed over something that maybe should have been interrogated more.

certainly, nick’s prior characterization to that point suggested that he of all people might find it especially difficult to swallow not necessarily grissom and sara’s relationship itself but definitely the way they’d gone about conducting it.

as for greg, while i don’t think he’d necessarily be shocked to learn that gsr was a thing—as i talk about here, he of everyone on the team has perhaps had the most “up close and personal” view of grissom and sara’s dynamic over the last several years, so once he actually figures out what’s what, he can probably look back in retrospect and identify a lot of previously ambiguous evidence for what it actually was—i also don’t think he would necessarily be thrilled to learn the truth that they were together, either. 

while he might not be as annoyed about the principle of thing as catherine or as personally hurt about as nick, i still think the news that grissom and sara were together might kinda knock the wind out of him, just given his feelings toward sara.

as i talk about here, sara has always sort of been greg’s dream girl and while after s4/s5, he has mostly given up on ever having any actual chance with her romantically (settling comfortably into the position of being her platonic best friend), i still think it’s probably a situation where learning that she is with grissom throws him for a loop.

much like catherine talks about in episode 06x01 “bodies in motion,” the great thing about a fantasy is “the possibility that it might come true,” so having that possibility taken away “sucks.” 

sara has always kind of been greg’s fantasy, so it might potentially be a bit rough on him to realize she was “off the market,” and especially in such a serious way—and particularly given the grissom of it all.

knowing that his long-time crush is in a long-term, committed relationship with their boss, whom he thinks of as a father figure, probably messes with his head on freudian levels. like. if he was having anxiety dreams about having sex with sara while grissom was watching/scrutinizing him before (see 05x16 “big middle”), one can only imagine what he’s dreaming about now.

ultimately, while i don’t think his hurt/upset would run very deep, it still might cause him to act a bit squirrelly around grissom and sara once they got back to the lab after their leave, at least at first.  

as for brass’s reaction, i think of everyone he might be the most understanding.

after all, he has himself in the past had an “office affair” of his own (see episode 05x20 “hollywood brass”), so i think he’d very much get that when two people in a high-intensity job work together closely for a long period of time, sometimes sparks fly. 

while he might be confused that grissom would have looked at sara as a potential romantic partner rather than as something more like a daughter figure—after all, brass and grissom are about the same age, and that’s certainly how brass thinks of sara himself—once he knew they were together, i think his reaction would be to just shrug and say, “sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants, you know?” secretly, he might even harbor a “you know what? good for them” kind of attitude, taking some comfort in the idea of two lonely people finding companionship in each other.

though he wouldn’t be ignorant of the fact that their flaunting of department policy could have potential ramifications for the team and even for the lvpd at large, i think that he’d get that people are messy, and especially when it comes to love.

so.

all of the above said, while i don’t think it’s a given that any member of team graveyard necessarily would oppose grissom and sara’s coupledom or be upset about how they’d hidden their relationship for so long, i do definitely think it’s possible that at least some of them could have done so, for the reasons previously outlined.

that said, i do also think that it’s likely that even if some of grissom and sara’s teammates did initially disapprove of their relationship or at least how they’d gone about conducting it at first, they would for the most part all eventually come around to the idea and support it in the long run, given the passage of time and their increasing exposure to the grissom and sara as a couple.

i don’t think it’s likely that this reveal would have been a “deal-breaker” for any of them when it came to their friendships with grissom and sara or their willingness to work with them going forward.

it just might be a case where maybe there was slightly more pushback at least at first than what the show allows us to see.

the whole process might have been much more dynamic than what canon seems to suggest.

does anyone on team graveyard blame grissom for sara's abduction?

personally, i somewhat doubt it.

certainly, the show never suggests that such is the case during episodes 07x24 “living doll” and 08x01 “dead doll,” but even beyond the issue of what canon does (and doesn’t) show us, i just think, from a character perspective, that it’s unlikely that they do.

while grissom—notorious self-flagellator that he is—likely does blame himself, thinking that if only he’d caught natalie sooner or hadn’t been so handsy with sara in public, sara might never have become a target, i believe that most of his and sara’s friends, if asked, would remind him that no one is ultimately responsible for natalie’s actions except for natalie.

claiming that grissom is responsible for sara’s abduction makes about as much sense as claiming that any of natalie’s other victims had brought their own murders upon themselves.

like.

while some of them were repugnant people, none of them deserved to get brutally murdered or brought their murders upon themselves; they just had the unfortunate experience of being in proximity to a serial killer and her bleach kill-trigger. it wasn’t their faults (or the faults of their friends and family members) that they got killed. 

it was natalie’s.

no matter how the various members of team graveyard might feel about grissom and sara being together or their secrecy regarding their relationship, i think all of them have been doing their jobs well enough to know that both grissom and sara are victims in this case; i don’t think any of them would have hard feelings toward anyone but natalie for what had happened.

grissom was already doing everything he could to solve that case as fast as possible, and he and sara were being about as discreet about their relationship as two people could be.

after all, they’d successfully hidden it from their teammates for years.

there wasn’t really anything he or they could have done differently to change the situation, and especially not knowing what (or whom) they were really up against. the members of team graveyard are all practical enough to realize as much.

do you think catherine or brass would have been upset that grissom didn’t tell them about their relationship even though they have been friends for a long time?

as talked about above, while i do think catherine might have reason to be upset once she learns the truth about gsr, i don’t think she’d be upset for this particular reason. 

imo, catherine knows grissom well enough to realize that he was probably never going to confide in her about his love life, regardless of whom he happened to be dating. 

for all of the ways in which their friendship is a very close one, that topic has just always been a one-way street for them; catherine may tell grissom about her adventures and misadventures with dating (and even complain to him about her “dry spells” on occasion), but grissom is never going to do the same with her, and she knows as much. it doesn’t offend her. she gets that that’s just the way things are with him.

she might even understand that in this particular case, he perhaps felt it was important to shield her from the truth so as to insulate her from potential professional fallout in the event that said truth was discovered by their superiors.

(after all, had she known about grissom and sara’s relationship and not “turned them in,” she could have gotten in trouble with the administration just as much as them. “aiding and abetting” in this instance could be a fireable offense.)

so of all the reasons she might be pissed at him for his behavior in this situation, i honestly don’t think this one ranks very high on her list.

the same probably goes for brass.

again, having himself had an office romance in the past, brass is aware that it’s just one of those things that one keeps to themselves. the more people one tells, the more likely the secret is to get out and the more potential damage will be done once it is.

he’d probably understand grissom and sara’s reasons for keeping this particular secret to themselves.

i don’t think he’d take it too personally, knowing that they did so not out of dislike of or distrust of him, per se, but just because that’s just how “secret affairs” are typically conducted.

once they learn the truth, do any members of team graveyard recall past events that now in retrospect seem to be obvious indicators that grissom and sara have been together for a very long time?

oh, yeah, definitely!

probably everyone on the team has at least one or two “looking back now, i definitely should have known!” type memories where gsr is concerned (and even some, “wait. were they together even way back then?!” type ones, too).

i mean, the truth is, grissom and sara have never exactly been subtle about their feelings for each other—and in fact, that’s kind of the reason they’re able to “camouflage” their relationship from their teammates for so long.

it’s the type of deal where because they have always in many ways acted like a couple, no one actually noticed when they became a couple officially, but then once they were a couple officially and finally “out,” their friends could look back and go, “oooh! so that’s the reason they were acting that way.”

i mean, warrick might remember a moment like the one where grissom brings sara the veggie burger in episode 07x01 “built to kill” pt. i and go, “oh, shit, i get it now!” or, thinking about it, nick might suddenly have an epiphany about how there was probably a reason why sara seemed a bit down/distracted during the four weeks that grissom was out of town on his sabbatical last year.

i’m sure everyone can think of some flirtatious exchange or weird interaction between grissom and sara that they’ve witnessed over the years that now, upon reflection, takes on a whole new significance, given the knowledge that grissom and sara are in love (and have been for a long time).

i’m sure there is a “5 + 1” fic to be written on this topic for anyone so inclined.

would team graveyard lobby for ecklie to be lenient with grissom and sara in terms of the rules violation?

eh, i don’t really think so.

i mean, regardless of what their personal feelings on gsr might be, i think the members of team graveyard know that the lab has the policies it does re: romantic relationships between team members for a reason.

there are a lot of serious ethical issues that could arise from two members of the same criminalistics team dating each other, and particularly when one of them is a boss and one of them is a subordinate, in terms of potential for the exertion of undue influence, and the legal liability in such a situation is very real. regardless of whether or not grissom ever did pressure sara to perform her job duties in certain ways in order to please him/earn his favor, just the possibility that he could have calls into question the validity of all of the work they did together.

i mean, even without them actually being in a relationship at the time, we see a defense attorney employ this very tactic in order to discredit sara/team graveyard’s work in episode 03x02 “the accused is entitled.” nora cross also gestures toward a similar point in reboot episode 01x04 “long pig.”

so while i don’t think anyone on team graveyard is happy about things having to change, i think they all understand that the fact that they do is somewhat inevitable.

grissom and sara can’t both keep working as supervisor and subordinate as long as they’re still in a romantic relationship together, and while maybe it might’ve been possible to shift the hierarchy of the team in order to allow them to still both remain working on the same shift together had they been more proactive about reporting their relationship rather than reactive about doing so—as ecklie suggests in episode 08x02 “a la cart,” perhaps catherine could’ve become sara’s supervisor or something along those lines, had they just come forward earlier—the fact is that, ultimately, they did break the rules, and there has to be some consequence for them doing so.

honestly, they’re actually lucky that neither one of them got fired or demoted.

in the scheme of things, sara having to switch shifts is a relatively minor punishment, given both the nature of their deception and the scope of it.

for as much as their teammates might not like sara having to move to swing, i don’t think anyone would argue that ecklie is being unreasonable in making her do so. like grissom and sara themselves, they probably realize that this outcome is one that they just have to accept for what it is.

does team graveyard find out that grissom and sara are living together at the same time they learn about their relationship?

yes.

i mean, considering that grissom takes four plus months off from work to stay home and nurse sara back to health after her ordeal, there’s really no avoiding the fact of their cohabitation.

would team graveyard be shocked to learn that grissom and sara were living together?

to my mind, the most shocking revelation in this situation would just be the fact of the relationship itself, so once they knew that grissom and sara were a couple, i don’t actually think it’d be that surprising to them to also find out that they were living together.

that’s just what people in long-term, serious romantic relationships (most often) tend to do.

that said, i do think they might be a bit incredulous that grissom and sara had managed to hide their living arrangements for as long as they did. 

like.

the amount of work that must have gone into them keeping up the charade that they had separate lives/residences must have been extraordinary—to the tune of them purposefully leaving the lab parking lot in different directions at the end of every shift, staggering their comings and goings from work, maintaining a separate address for sara somehow (likely still paying rent on her old place so that they could tell hr that was where she lived), hiding the fact that they had a dog for whom they shared care responsibilities together, never eating leftovers for lunch in the breakroom lest someone notice they had obviously had the same meal for dinner the day before, remaining silent when the other person answered work calls while they were at home together so that no one could recognize their voices on the other end of the line, just never slipping up and saying to each other “see you at home” when someone else was around to hear them, etc., etc., etc.

it’s not easy to pretend you don’t live with the person you live with, and especially not when you work with a bunch of trained observers whose job it is to notice details.

they would have had to be so fastidious in order to keep their secret secret, and i think that’s the thing their teammates would find shocking: not the fact of their cohabitation itself but that they managed to pull it off for two full years.

is there anyone in team graveyard (including brass, doc robbins, and/or super dave) who might have had their previous suspicions about grissom and sara’s relationship status proven correct?

mine is an unpopular opinion, but i honestly believe that prior to the events of episode 07x24 “living doll,” no one on team graveyard knows that grissom and sara are in a relationship or even has real suspicions that they are.

while at various points throughout the early seasons, some members of team graveyard might suspect that grissom and sara have feelings for each other of some kind (or that at least one or the other of them does so) and while some of them might even suppose that maybe they had some kind of prior romantic history together before sara moved to las vegas, i don’t think anyone actually realized that they were dating between 2005-2007.

for my money, here’s how things shake down:

catherine is dead convinced that grissom and sara were having a sexual relationship prior to when sara moved to vegas and that they then continued to have one for a brief period of time after she moved, as well. however, by the time the events of s7/s8 are taking place, she figures that their “thing” is ancient history, so she is completely blindsided by the revelation that they are currently together. while learning that they are a couple might seemingly lend some credence to her suspicions about grissom and sara’s past, i don’t think she was savvy enough to their “present” to be vindicated in that sense.

as i talk about here, “we don’t get much information regarding what warrick knows about gsr, except that in episode 01x20 ‘sounds of silence,’ he states that sara doesn’t like it when grissom has other women in his life—a statement which reveals that, at the very least, he is aware that sara is attracted to and possessive of grissom. in s6, warrick is part of a group that teasingly refers to grissom as ‘single boy,’ which suggests that warrick is oblivious to the fact that grissom is dating anyone at the time, let alone that grissom is dating sara (see episode 06x23 ‘bang-bang’). in s7, he witnesses grissom and sara acting coupley around each other in the ‘i got you a veggie burger’ scene in episode 07x01 ‘built to kill,’ pt. i. however, the show gives no indication that he picks up the vibe that grissom and sara are throwing down. (and, in fact, part of the joke in the scene is that warrick asks ‘where’s the love?’ without knowing that it’s right in front of him, between grissom and sara.) given warrick’s reaction to grissom’s revelation in episode 07x24 ‘living doll,’ it seems that he is probably fairly oblivious to romantic gsr prior to that point. so to sum up: warrick may have known that sara had a crush on grissom early on, but the thought that grissom and sara were in love with each other and in a committed relationship probably never crossed his mind prior to the big reveal.”

nick is straight-up clueless. he tells us so himself in episode 08x02 “a la cart.”

meanwhile, while greg suggests to nick that he was knowledgeable of gsr prior to s7, i don’t he actually was. to quote from the same post linked previously: “i’ve always been of the opinion that greg is kind of messing with nick and bending the truth when he says that he had special knowledge concerning gsr prior to episode 07x24 ‘living doll.’ he’s not lying, exactly—but he is taking what is probably his nebulous sense that something was going on between grissom and sara from 2005 to 2007 and making it sound like he had an absolute knowledge of their dating relationship during that time, even though he almost certainly didn’t. if you look at the way nick and greg’s conversation plays out, nick asks if sara ever said anything to greg about her relationship with grissom. nick asks this question knowing that grissom would be unlikely to disclose personal information about himself to anyone on the team, though sara might confide personal information about herself in someone, and especially greg, who is her best friend. nick’s question seems to take greg somewhat by surprise; greg’s body language shows uncertainty. ‘not in so many words,’ he hedges. his answer suggests that, at the very least, he has never had an actual conversation with sara about her and grissom’s love life (i.e., that sara has never actually sat him down and confided her and grissom’s secret in him), and, even more likely, that if he knew anything pre-reveal about gsr at all, it was all things he read between the lines—clues that only really make sense to him in retrospect, now that he knows the context for them. nick senses greg’s hesitation/equivocation, so he presses greg’s answer. ‘so you knew about the two of them?’ he asks, annoyed that he somehow may have missed something that greg was able to pick up on. greg shrugs—a gesture which suggests that he is again equivocating and maybe even stretching the truth. ‘yeah,’ he says awkwardly. based on greg’s responses and body language in this scene, it seems to me that greg probably didn’t know anything concrete about grissom and sara being together before grissom made his big reveal at the end of s7—he just wants nick to think that he did because he knows nick will be miffed about having been ‘kept out of the loop,’ and greg and nick never miss out on an opportunity to razz each other. sara never sat down with greg and said she was dating grissom, and greg probably didn’t know anything about gsr for certain until after grissom revealed that he is in love with sara and the truth about their relationship became public when natalie davis had sara kidnapped.”

i’m also maybe the one person in the fandom who doesn’t actually believe brass knows about gsr pre-episode 07x24 “living doll.” you can find my reasoning here.

i also don’t think either doc or super dave know just because it’s never even hinted at that they do.

so all of the above said, while i do believe that various members of team graveyard might’ve been able to say, “hey! i was right: sara has always had a crush on grissom!” or “oooh, so when i thought that one interaction between them seemed ~weird~, it was,” i don’t think any one of them can truthfully say that they believed grissom and sara were dating each other prior to the big reveal.

to me, that’s part of the whole joke of s7.

they’re all so close to the truth and yet so far.

would brass mention the interrogation scene in episode 04x12 “butterflied” to anyone else on team graveyard in order to offer proof of grissom and sara’s longstanding and deep love for each other?

personally, i don’t think so.

while he may himself realize in retrospect the significance of that particular moment, i think if he does, he also realizes just how deeply personal it is and knows it isn’t his place to talk about it “out of school.”

grissom was essentially “unburdening himself to the void,” and brass just so happened to overhear it.

grissom had no expectation that anyone in that room would understand what (or rather whom) he was really talking about.

just like he had no idea that sara had listened to him make his confession, either.

brass knows as much, and he’s discreet enough to keep what he is aware of to himself.

do you think catherine is horrified when she realizes the implications of her whole “wears the chaps” spiel speculating on grissom and heather’s possible past sexual involvement to sara in episode 07x23 “the good, the bad, & the dominatrix”?

no.

honestly, even once she learns about gsr, catherine still might believe that grissom and heather had slept together at some point in the past (just like many csi viewers do), so i don’t think, given that she is generally a fairly shameless person, that she’d feel at all bad about speculating to that end—even given that she now knows that sara is grissom’s current girlfriend.

hell, she might even think the situation was funny, in retrospect—her going on and on about grissom and (in her view) his past lover’s sex life, all while grissom’s current lover was standing there, unable to say anything a damn thing about it or even let on that she had a vested interested in the topic. kind of hilarious, no?

in catherine’s mind, it’s a fair game subject to speculate about, particularly considering that sara, as grissom’s girlfriend, probably is already aware of his sexual history anyway (at least the way she sees things).

do you greg, nick, and/or warrick are jealous or resentful toward grissom once they find out that he is with sara?

i don’t think nick or warrick ever has any kind of legitimate attraction to or romantic feelings for sara period*, so i doubt that they care about grissom dating her, at least on those grounds.

* while they may both play-flirt with sara at times (and she with them), it’s always done in a very jocular way. at least to me, i don’t think there’s ever any serious intention behind it.

however, as someone who has always had a crush on sara, greg, on the other hand, might be a little jealous and resentful, not to an extreme degree—i don’t think he wishes ill on grissom and/or grissom and sara’s relationship—but to the extent that he might wonder exactly what sara sees in grissom that she doesn’t see in him and (as discussed above) feel a little bit disappointed that his dream girl is no longer available to him.

fwiw, i do think we see at least a hint of this jealousy/resentment in play with greg’s curtness toward grissom in episode 08x08 “you kill me,” when he seems to blame grissom for “causing” sara to leave vegas in a way that no one else on the team does.

who on team graveyard pries grissom away from sara's hospital bed so he can get food and sleep?

no one.

the end of hospital visiting hours forces him to leave eventually.

does anyone on the team go to grissom and sara’s place to get clothes and toiletries for grissom and sara and make sure hank gets to the dog sitter? if yes, does this someone do any snooping inside grissom and sara's home?

i don’t think anyone does go to their house, as

no one would have needed to deal with hank, as he would’ve already been at the sitter’s at the time of sara’s abduction anyway, given that she had already left for work by then (stopping to grab a quick bite at a restaurant on her way to the lab, as per what is shown in episode 07x24 “living doll”) and grissom was already at the lab himself during that interval, as well,

and, as stated above, grissom would eventually have to go back to the condo himself anyway once visiting hours in the icu were over, at which point he could procure everything he and sara needed himself without having to direct someone else to do it.

to my mind, the first time anyone gets a glimpse of “grissom and sara’s inner sanctum” is in the deleted scene from episode 08x12 “grissom’s divine comedy,” when catherine shows up at the condo to talk to grissom about the case of the day. 

certainly, her snooping behavior in that scene tells us that she’s never been to grissom and sara’s place before, and if she hasn’t, then i doubt that anyone else on the team has, either. 

does anyone confront sara for not telling them about her and grissom’s relationship since they can't confront grissom as their boss?

i don’t personally think so—or at least not in an angry, aggressive kind of way.

while that’s not to say that no one potentially would have hurt feelings toward her, i tend to believe that in a lot of ways the timeline of events plus her status as the victim of a crime helps to spare her any kind of truly fraught conversations.

of course, at the moment when grissom reveals the truth to their friends about their relationship, sara is not present to be reacted at. 

then, even after her initial rescue, she’s in the hospital, where her teammates only have very limited access to her, probably in much worse shape than we as viewers are even shown, for a long time hovering in critical condition and then even afterwards still banged up and busted enough that it would take a kind of truly heartless person (which of course none of her teammates are) to show up in the icu or step-down unit and chew her ass for previous duplicitous behavior. 

even once she’s discharged, she’s on leave, which means she probably a bit difficult to pin down.

while other fans may (and probably do disagree), i tend to think grissom and sara don’t really invite anyone over to their place while sara is convalescing, probably for myriad reasons; in all likelihood, they just “drop off the grid.”

all said, for four plus months, no one really probably has much of a chance to give sara a piece of their minds, no matter how much they might be inclined to.

during that timespan, i’ve got to believe that a lot of the initial kneejerk reactions her teammates have to learning the news temper and eventually even dissipate as the months wear on. for however mad they may have been at her (and grissom) initially, the more time passes and life continues, the more they get over having been lied to, and especially because, at least insofar as we’re shown, there never does seem to be any real professional reckoning for grissom and sara’s actions for team graveyard—i.e., no cases of theirs ever do get overturned, no lawsuits are ever filed, nobody gets fired or demoted, and sara is the only one who ends up having to change shifts in the end—meaning that for all their fear of what might happen when “the other shoe drops,” the drop doesn’t actually ever occur. it just becomes a moot point.

ultimately, for as reckless as what grissom and sara did was, it turns into a “no harm, no foul” situation.

that so, i tend to suspect that by the time sara does finally come back to work in october, her friends have mostly moved past the point of even wanting to confront her; by then, they’re all just happy to see her alive and well (which is certainly what canon seems to depict in episode 08x02 “a la cart”). any anger or resentment there had been has long since been muted.

and especially because it’s probably difficult to feel anything but sorry for sara, considering that she is still pretty hurt, even by the time she finally does come back to the lab. it’s hard to yell at the girl with her face all cut up and her arm in a sling, you know?

while there might be some conversations along the lines of “you could have told us, you know”—i can particularly imagine this type of discussion between her and warrick or her and greg—i don’t think that when/if they happen, they are had in anger. i also think that when sara explains, at least in part, her and grissom’s side of things (“we didn’t want to drag anyone else into it. it was our thing”), her teammates accept the reasoning/intentions behind the action, even if they don’t necessarily agree.

as for whether or not anyone ever confronts grissom: i think it’s more likely that he gets confronted than sara does, even though he is the boss, both because he comes back to work earlier than she does—we’re not told how much earlier exactly, but we’re clearly shown in episode 08x02 “a la cart” that he’s already back to working cases while she’s still making arrangements to make the switch over to swing—and because, unfortunately for him, in some ways he is the less sympathetic party in this case.

i also don’t think that grissom is necessarily the kind of boss the members of team graveyard would feel too intimidated to confront. i mean, they’ve always called him out on his bullshit in the past (see, for example, their comments to him in episode 02x15 “burden of proof” or nick’s heated conversation with him in episode 04x11 “eleven angry jurors”), so it stands to reason that they’d be comfortable doing so in this situation, as well, particularly given how his actions might potentially impact them/the team/the lab.

whether or not anyone actually yells at him, i don’t know. possibly they could, but even if they don’t, i do think it’s likely that maybe his reception upon his return to the lab is a bit frosty or that someone makes at least some kind of comment to him indicating their displeasure at some point.

(my bets would be on catherine or nick.)

do ecklie and grissom have any kind of conversations regarding grissom’s leave of absence after sara’s rescue and prior to the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart”?

the show completely glosses over the logistics of grissom taking leave, but the fact is that he would have to communicate with both ecklie and catherine in order to coordinate with them while he was away to make the situation work.

based on the statements sara makes in episode 04x23 “bloodlines” indicating that she has (at that time) ten weeks’ worth of vacation on the books, we can calculate, based on her having worked at the lab for four years by that point and never having taken a vacation to date aside from maybe attending a short conference or two here or there, that the csis each likely receive between 2.5 and 3 weeks of vacation time per calendar year. 

considering that by the time of sara’s abduction, grissom has worked at the lab for about twenty-two years and has seldom taken any of his pto to date, he likely has well over a years’ worth of vacation time available to him at that point to take—and, legally, if he requests to take it, the lab has to let him.

that so, i think it’s likely that he flat-out tells ecklie, “i’m not coming back to work for the next few months,” and ecklie just kind of has to deal with it.

and especially because sara was injured more or less on the job by someone on the lab’s payroll.

like.

while it wasn’t actually the lab’s fault that sara was abducted, it still would have been a bad-faith move with potentially damning pr implications to deny grissom the opportunity to stay home and tend to her. 

however, even though grissom can basically take as much vacation time as he sees fit without ecklie being able to say boo about it, he still probably has to communicate with ecklie enough to hand off his cases and supervisory duties to catherine and potentially other shift supervisors—somebody from day or swing or even ecklie himself likely has to step in while grissom’s away in order to give catherine her nights off—and make sure that his team isn’t left even more in the lurch than they inevitably are, missing both him and sara for several months on end.

it also might be the case that on occasion, he would have to come back to the lab in order to prep his substitutes for upcoming trials or even to take part in said trials himself.

for as much as he’d be loath to leave sara home alone while she was recovering, i’m sure she’d be the first to tell him, “i don’t want you to let murderers walk free for my sake. please go testify in this case. you’re the only expert entomologist at the lab, and your findings are the only thing that’ll put this guy away where he belongs. i can have one of our neighbors come sit with me. i’ll be okay for a few hours without you. i promise.”

all of that so, i very strongly believe grissom probably has spoken with ecklie—and probably even regularly emailed with him and had phone conversations—prior to the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart.”

it’s just that they haven’t yet talked about the elephant in the room by then, you know?

—probably as much due to grissom’s dodging as ecklie’s own awkwardness about broaching the subject.

say what you will about ecklie, but i genuinely believe that, as he indicates in episode 08x02 “a la cart,” he takes no pleasure in administrating this particular issue. he probably doesn’t want to discuss grissom and sara’s looming disciplinary action while they’re both still away from work, particularly as he knows sara is still very much in recovery. chances are, he’s only too happy to put that conversation off until they both return to work, knowing that until then there’s really not much to be done anyway.

part of him probably wonders if they’ll even ever come back to work at all (particularly sara), especially in the immediate aftermath of the abduction. he’s probably wondering, “is this the kind of deal where what starts out as an extended leave of absence just turns into them never really coming back? am i gonna be looking for their replacements a few months from now?”

would hodges be full of himself, telling anyone who’d listen that he knew all along about gsr?

i mean, potentially.

certainly, that would be one way to write his character in this situation, and i don’t necessarily think it would be ooc to have him behave in that way.

that said, i think it’s maybe a bit more fun to imagine a more nuanced version of his behavior, where in the aftermath of sara’s rescue, everyone keeps kind of expecting him to play that “of course i knew all along” braggadocio role, but he kind of just, well, doesn’t.

imagine a scenario where the news of grissom and sara’s romance has started to spread around the lab, beyond just with the main players on team graveyard. now it’s the hot gossip. every tech and trainee and secretary is playing the “well, did you know? what tipped you off? did you see when x, y, or z thing happened between them?” game, sharing their own “close encounters of the gsr kind” stories with their friends, trying to pin down the logistics of the whole affair.

rumors are swirling—“grissom only hired her because they were an item before she moved from san francisco, you know;” “did you hear they have a secret love child? he’s eight and he already goes to harvard;” “someone told me that they got married a few years back during that time when sara got suspended;” “they’re into all kinds of bdsm and have threesomes with lady heather on the reg;” etc.—and everyone is just wildly speculating about their sex life and their home situation and which of the other members of their team actually knew about them and when.

at some point, the lab rats are all going on about it over lunch in the breakroom and hodges is uncharacteristically quiet. archie tries to get him to contribute to the conversation, but he just kind of demurs. henry even goes as far as to tease him (“he’s sitting over there all quiet and mysterious-like, just hoping we’ll ask him what he knows so that he can pretend that he knew all along”). but hodges just gets up and leaves.

while the other lab rats suppose that he’s just being a sore sport because he can’t actually to pretend to have known anything more than they did—“he was just as clueless as the rest of us”—wendy gets up and follows him and asks him to explain himself.

at first, hodges just tries to brush it off, but wendy is nothing if not persistent, so eventually she gets him to open up.

turns out that hodges is kind of shaken.

grissom is his hero, and after what happened with sara, well—

hodges just can’t get that look on grissom’s face out of his head; how haunted he looked, how small.

maybe while everyone else is treating grissom and sara’s love life like a cypher to be decoded, hodges is just worried because “if something like that happened to the woman i loved, i don’t think i could come back to work at the place that made it happen. i think i’d have to walk away.” 

of course, wendy can’t promise that grissom will be back—and hodges does actually make a good point; it would be difficult to willingly return to the darkness that had almost swallowed your true love whole—but she can reassure him: “if grissom and sara do walk away, i don’t think it’ll be a sad ending.”

“no?”

“i don’t think it’s ever the wrong thing to choose love. and besides—”

“what?”

she touches over his fingers where his hands rest on the desk. “—this lab will still be in good hands.”

do i have headcanon dialogue about your questions?

i tried to pepper a little into my answers here and there, but honestly these scenarios are not ones to which i have devoted a ton of brainpower to imagining, not for any particular reason—i mean, i’m certainly not averse to this part of gsr history in the same way i am the later seasons of the show—but just because i haven’t.

i don’t really have concrete headcanons about how everyone reacts to the news—like i’ve said, i could pretty easily be convinced that certain team members have much more complicated reactions (at least initially) than what we’re shown by the point that the events of episode 08x02 “a la cart” are taking place, but i could also believe that maybe they’re all fairly quick to accept the new status quo, as long as a convincing enough rationale was provided as to why so they did—and i especially don’t have fully mapped out scenes in my head for everything that happens.

anyway.

thanks for the questions! please feel welcome to send more any time.       

#answered #hiei29 #asks: csi #** #my meta #meta: csi #meta: gsr #season 8 #hypothetical scenario #speculation csi #let's talk shop #csiverse

[agentrouka-blog]

There is several mention of Eyrie and Storm End is impregnable and untouched by war. Seems like in TWOW it's going to be changed. Both Lysa and Robin keep saying that Eyrie is untouched by war whereas Sansa and Tyrion think that no castle will remain impregnable. Considering Tyrion himself armed Mountain clans to attack Vale. Aegon is going to take Storm End.

We shouldn’t confuse the Eyrie (a mountain castle and the summer residence of House Arryn), which is considered “impregnable” (except by dragons...),  with the Vale (a region ruled by the Arryns), which is “famously fertile and untouched by war”. 

As impregnable as the Eyrie is, it’s difficult to provision and starvation is a serious issue in the long run. Even the short siege by the Lords Declarant saw them reduced in the food available to them. 

And since the Eyrie has been abadoned for winter, its “impregnable” state is entirely irrelevant. The Vale, while protected by mountains, makes no such boast. The entire court is down at the Gates of the Moon now, inviting guests for a tourney. 

“Impregnable” Storm's End held out a year during the Rebellion, and the defenders almost starved, but they were able to smuggle in some onions by sea until they were rescued. But it’s the same here, the point is already moot.

According to TWOW, Arianne II, Storm’s End has (presumably) surrendered to Aegon and Jon Connington.

"Has no one told you?" Halden Halfmaester favored her with a smile thin and hard as a dagger cut. "Storm's End is ours. The Hand awaits you there." (...) 

“A ship will have the princess there in half a day or less. There is an army descending on Storm's End from King's Landing. You will want to be safe inside the walls before the battle."

Will we? Wondered Arianne. "Battle? Or siege?" She did not intend to let herself be trapped inside Storm's End. 

"Battle," Halden said firmly. "Prince Aegon means to smash his enemies in the field." (TWOW, Arianne II)

How did they do it? 

“If Storm’s End is so impregnable, how do you mean to take it?” asked Malo. 

“By guile.” 

Homeless Harry Strickland disagreed. “We should wait.” 

“We shall.” Jon Connington stood. “Ten days. No longer. It will take that long to prepare. On the morning of the eleventh day, we ride for Storm’s End.” (The Griffin Reborn)

What does that mean, what did he prepare in ten days? I have no idea. (I’m sure there are excellent theories out there, though.)

A castle is only as impregnable as the person who rules it. What is impossible to take by storm can choose to open up in the right circumstances.

#eyrie #vale #storm's end

[strangertheories]

I saw people saying that this was something that correlates to Eddie, or at least I assume that was what was being said. Regardless, I don’t think that’s the case. I can’t imagine why in the world a child would end up in prison, but i’m sort’ve leaning toward this being what leads up to Eleven returning to the lab? It’s clear that she’s taken from Rink-O in some kind of van, and then somehow she ends up at a diner way later at night. Again, the issue of her even ending up in police custody strikes as a point of contention, but it’s strange that Eddie of all people would be pulled from jail by a “familiar face” (who i’m 50% sure is Dr. Owens) when he’s a newer character. Also, pretty sure we see two 1980s black sedans out front of the aforementioned diner lol.

There’s also this little thing I noticed between the cards, but I doubt it’s major.

Iirc Eddie has a dad (that’s what I read at least, take it with a grain of salt), so the kids stopping by the trailer before Lover’s Lake (where he’s hiding, assumedly) could be our intro to him. In the case that it isn’t though, and Eddie is attacked by Vecna, I wonder how it’ll end.

This has changed my POV on that first monopoly card. I originally thought it was Eddie being rescued by one of the older people in the Hawkins gang (Robin, Nancy, Steve) because they were in a black car at the trailer park and seem to be with Eddie later. Whilst this could still happen, I think your analysis makes a lot more sense.

One thing I'm not sure about is why Eleven is arrested. I don't think she is taken from rink though. For one thing, she is wearing different clothes. However we see in a promo image that she is with the Cali gang whilst wearing the same dress that has now been stained meaning she went home after the events. I think at the rink she had a drink thrown on her so she tried to use her powers but failed, which is referenced in the cards and also would be a good subversion of expectations. I think I mentioned this before in response to one of your posts. But if she wasn't taken from the rink, what did she do to warrant an arrest? She doesn't have her powers back when she is arrested because if she was taken into custody because of her powers, why wouldn't Dr Owens who I, like you, believe takes her out of police custody call her out when she says she doesn't have any powers?

Maybe the bullies frame Eleven for something that they did? But I don't know if they'd have two framings (Eddie) within one season. Eleven could've maybe done something illegal out of anger but again I'm not sure what this could be. It could've been an accident such as stealing something (she's done it before except on purpose) due to a misunderstanding of social signals which I assume she'll struggle with because she spent her childhood in a lab? I think a misunderstanding is the most likely solution, but this is something I'm not too sure of. Either way, she gets arrested, picked up by Dr Owens and then that night she is taken to the diner to discuss her future.

I'm not sure what you're saying about Eddie's dad. But yes, I think Eddie could get put in a Vecna trance. The card could also be referring to Chrissy as I believe she'll live in the trailer park hence the body bag in the st4 trailer. But I think it is more likely Eddie as his trailer seems to be involved in Upside Down shenanigans as it is a location in the monopoly game and also where Eddie seems to be playing his guitar in the trailer.

Thanks for the ask! (:

#stranger things #stranger things four #stranger things theory #stranger theories #stranger things analysis #eleven hopper #dr owens #eddie munson #chrissy stranger things #eddie stranger things #eleven stranger things

[batarangsoundsdumb]

okay but this is hilarious

#i love dick being fun and quippy #i love him in general #yeehaw #dick grayson #nightwing #nightwing (2016) #red hood #jason todd #robin #damian wayne #did i mention he's rescuing robin in this issue #and then damian makes fun of him for taking so long #it's funny #also there's this one filler issue right after where he basically babysits roy (arsenal) and damian and it's hilarious #tim drake #red robin #batman #dcu #dc #dc comics #bruce wayne #batfam

[magnumdays]

4.01 ideas

So season 3 leaves a lot of different ways for season 4 to start.

I have to believe there was an actual reason for sending Juliet and Ethan off to Africa so hopefully it will be good. I don’t know what the producers are thinking/ planning for the next season but here are some possible plots I would LOVE (and in some cases NEED) to see.

Miggy reunion (hug) - so this would mean we start at the end of the six months (or some months into the Kenya adventure). This is the one plot/scene I absolutely would hate if we didn’t get. But I mean, come one, they have to give us our Miggy reunion! 

(Or like more than one. Maybe we can have both Higgy and Magnum have dream reunions. And then like somehow have one airport reunion and then a welcome home hug and just... actually I legit wouldn’t mind if the whole episode was just Miggy reunion feels...)

But really we need and will most likely get this no matter what’s going down in 4.01...

Juliet in trouble 

I think this is one of the most obvious ones. 

I wrote about this back when the whole “riding off into the sunset” thing was a thing, like how I didn’t think they’d actually have Juliet leave. But if they did they just HAD to do an episode with her getting into trouble over-seas and the boys coming to her rescue. Since I was wrong and they did have Juliet and  go with Ethan, this just means there is a chance for this plot to become real! 

It would go something like; Juliet gets herself into trouble in Kenya and Magnum fly across the world to save her, fighting bad guys and just being all around super cool. We get a dramatic almost dying for each other and Miggy reunion. 

But with Higgy having been kidnapped just a few episodes ago, I don’t know about the likelihood of this...

Ethan in trouble - Same deal, only here we have Ethan being the one in trouble. Kidnapped to preform a surgery on an weapons’ dealer or something like that. 

We would get high stakes, Magnum/Higgy working together to save E, angsty Magnum because he loves Higgy but he has to save her boyfriend and Juliet having trauma about possibly losing the man she loves. Then maybe have Magnum almost get shot saving Ethan and she’s even more shook about that and decides Magnum is where it’s at and bye-bye Ethan... 

All around I think this one would make for a great 4.01 (or 4.02.)

Spy related

Something to do with Higgy’s past as a spy comes back to haunt her in Kenya. This could lead to a Higgy/ Ethan break up without Magnum or the guys even having to show up. Because I don’t think Ethan is actually cool with dating a spy. As tough guy as he sometimes tried to act around the gang.

Plus spy gadgets are cool and MacGyver is over. Which brings us to...

MacGyver cross over

How amazing would this be... I mean MacGyver is over so it’s highly unlikely but it would be great if we could get Mac, Riley, Boozer making a quick appearance. Just saying, could be fun, and a great way to bring over some MacGyver fans to Magnum PI! (Come to the dark side, we have fancy cars, palm trees and slow-burn...)

Magnum/ Higgy long distance - So this is not something I’d love to see for anything but like one episode. Like starting off the episode with them skyping/facetiming while Magnum is on a case or something and then having it cut to her for some stuff going down with her or Ethan (or just her preferably.) Maybe to set up that possible 4.02 kidnapping of Ethan... These Kenya scenes could also show-case how Ethan and Juliet are basically on the cusp of breaking up...

Juliet / Ethan long distance - Perhaps we get this for part of the season? I hope not, but depending on how they do it, this could be interesting. Maybe like Magnum starts dating someone else? Juliet realizes she’s jelly and that’s not right and breaks up with Ethan but doesn’t tell Magnum and he still thinks they’re long distancing and is dating this new girl? For the drama? IDK. This is not a fave but they might be able to do it to some effect if they want...

Magnum visiting Juliet in Kenya - no one’s been kidnapped and Magnum is just there. Hanging out. Making Juliet miss home. They’re go on safari and picnics and romp in the fields. Ethan is no where to be found. It’s basically a fluffy pre-getting together romantic get away. Maybe they solve a case. A cute one. Maybe for some reason Hiapo is there. And the lads. And the Ferrari...

Looking up and she’s there

Like the first episode Magnum is solving a case, consulting with Higgy. Then sudden she isn’t picking up. He’s getting worried. Then at the end when the case is solved, he’s all “I’m going to call Ethan, to see she’s okay.” But Rick is like “No need bro.” And he nods behind them and Juliet is walking into La Mariana. He couldn’t reach her because she was on a flight to Hawaii for the past 14 hours!

They look at each other and you can just see how much they missed each other. And then it cuts to black before we get their sure to have been epic hug. And that’s how 4.01 ends...

(Maybe we open with that hug in 4.02, because I want the Reunion Hug badly.)

Ethan who? 

So how fun would it be if season 4 just totally ignores the season 3 finale and Higgy is just back. No one is like “welcome back! how’s Ethan?” It’s just like Ethan never existed and we never mention what happened, how they broke up or that he even was part of the show and that she went with him, ever again.

(Because honestly we’re all quite tired of him, even if he got great hair and abs, so him being missing would just be like ‘okay whatever’)

I know they won’t do this. Wouldn’t really want it when there are so many other great fun things (and it would make feel 3.16 feel totally hollow for any future re-watches) and would not let us have a Miggy reunion. But it would be kind of amusing too. Like... Ethan Who? Nope. Let’s just pretend he didn’t even exist.

Things I don’t want (early season 4)

Dead or hurt Ethan (come on! we got one dead fiancé, let’s not add another one)

Ethan breaking up with Higgy (they can mutually decide but he can’t be the one doing the relationship ending, unless it’s made super duper clear he’s doing it because he can totally tell she has more feelings for Magnum. Which would not make sense unless it was something like M getting shot to save E and J or something.)

An Ethan/ Higgy engagement lasting more than 2 minutes

Magnum and the lads still not getting along (come on, we need them to be friends!)

TC/ Rick bringing up feels. Like a little hinting is fine. But just a bit. Don’t be too obvious even if this is going to be the Miggy season (and if it’s not going to be that, don’t have feelings talk at all. My poor heart can’t handle it!)

More visa issues/ Juliet still owning Robin’s Nest and being smug about it/ money issues (Yes. I would like her to use these six months to re-apply for her employment visa and just give Robin back Robin’s Nest. Because the money needing thing was not that fun of a plot line)

Rick and Susie having started dated off screen. They’re so cute. I want to see them being cute and their relationship developing!

What Are We Most Likely To See?

I’m not sure they will actually do a major part of 4.01-2 anywhere but Hawaii. When they’ve had episodes taking place in other locations around the world, there have often been jungle / Hawaii like which makes me think it’s all still filmed in Hawaii right? (correct me if I’m wrong.)

There was however some reason they sent Juliet off with Ethan. I also think there was a reason they had Juliet tell Ethan about MI6. Somehow it will be relevant in season 4. 

Probably early season 4.

I say early since thy won’t drag out Ethan/Higgy’s relationship for long next season. He needs to be used to further the Miggy plot a little more, then keeping him around much longer will simply impact the show negatively too much.

Because if we’re being honest like majority of people watch this show for the Magnum/Higgy dynamic. And I think they know that. (Even if people don’t ship, they still want those two on screen, not Juliet and Ethan.) 

And with the new NCSI Hawaii show coming to film there...I don’t know it that bodes well for season 5 or not. I think they realize they have to move forward.  Treat season 4 as a possible series finale. And that starts with 4.01.

So I’m torn. 

What was the point of Africa if we don’t get an episode or some scenes from there? What’s the point of a separation between our main leads if we don’t get a great reunion? What’s the point of Ethan if not to bring Magnum and Higgy closer together? Magnum going ‘we are currently just friends’ if that’s not going to change or be an issue in the early parts of season 4?

But also, I kind of just want to get back to normal. Hawaii. Miggy banter. Crazy not quite making sense cases. No Ethan. The guys hanging. Kumu being her bad ass self. The Ferrari being red and shiny. Jin being wacky.

So perhaps just having the season start with Magnum being excited Higgy is coming home would be...fine? 

Picture this. 

He’s just hanging with the guys at La Mariana. 

It’s only been four months. 

They’re all like “so four months? Not six? Why she come home early?” and Magnum is all “I guess we’ll find out soon” and gets up to go to the airport to get her. We get a Miggy reunion hug. Some what’s the same, what’s different feeling out moments.

Anyways, they get a case, Magnum try to get her to talk about what happened with her coming home early and at the end of the episode she’s all “I realized he wasn’t the one.” They give each other heart eyes. And we’re just back to normal Magnum PI fun and games (and starting at your currently only friends business partner like s/he’s hung the moon and the stars...) for 4.02. 

I mean that would work... but it would also leave a little to be desired. Feel like some lost opportunities. You know? 

What are your thoughts on openings / season 4 starts? What possibilities do you see/ would like explored?

#Magnum PI #Magnum PI season 4 #MacGyver crossover? #MacGyver #Please tweet this to NBC so they know what to do #I mean pretty please do what i want #Miggy #OTP #I need my babies to figure things out #Thomas Magnum #Juliet Higgins #well this got longer than I meant

[peppersonironi]

Duke Thomas/The Signal Fic Recs

This is for @capttain-emo who saw me reblog this wonderful rec list by @stories-from-the-batcave , and asked if I knew any more. (I highly recommend those, btw, I love all the fics on that list! Yes, that includes the one I wrote in there) Duke Thomas is my favorite Batfam member, so I have a bunch! Unfortunately, there isn’t as much Duke content out there as I’d hope - people just don’t seem to like him as much for some reason? It’s sad. So, there are gonna be a couple here written by me. Rest assured, I have way more Duke content on the way - including a WIP coming out this week! (Ao3 linked out at the top of my blog)

I love recommending Fics, so hit me up in my inbox if there’s a trope or character or relationship (platonic or not) that you’d really love to read! I also write fan fiction, and my requests are always open!

1. Siblings: The Truth of the Matter by Me!

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & his siblings

Duke had a strange family. Two of his siblings had been raised from birth to be assassins. One was born in a circus. One had been a crime lord for a time. Yet another was the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company by the age of seventeen. All of them dressed up in spandex every night to punch bad guys.

So when he was woken up by icy water being splashed in his face, tied to a chair in nothing but his boxers, he wasn't surprised. Now, that's not to say he wasn't worried. Duke was definitely worried. Especially since it was these two.

AKA Duke gets tied up and questioned by his siblings, all while drugged with Truth Serum!

2. Bliss by Me!

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Damian

Duke walks in on a sleeping assassin child in need of comfort, and takes a chance. Brotherly bonding ensues!

3. An ever growing family of birds and bats by alicecrow6

Rating: General Audiences/Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Damian

a series of Batkids Age Reversal fics where Damian comes first, then Harper, then Duke and so on.

4. look at me, all the things I can do by Aelig  

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Cass, Duke & Bruce

"Duke took a bite of his toast, gaze still on Bruce. His foster father was sipping at his coffee, eyebrows frowning. To an outsider, you would think he was reading the morning news on his tablet, like always; Duke knew better. Bruce's look was a little away from the screen, his lips downward.

It was almost funny, to watch Bruce internally panic."

OR: It's the morning, and Duke is going back to school for the first time since his injury.

5. The Batchair(s) Issue by NightFlier

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen w/ background ships Relationships: Duke & Cass, Duke & Steph, Steph/Cass Trio & Batfam

Duke Thomas feels like an outsider, and not just because he's part of the new Outsiders team roster. He's the newest member of the legendary Batclan and hasn't yet formed the close bonds that the others share. Not to mention, he's the only active Meta on the team. As if it wasn't hard enough to relate with people with such colorful, unique backgrounds.

But it's okay! Duke has a plan and it'll probably work for a while before crashing & burning. BatShenanigans ahead.

6. All That Glitters is Gold (Unfortunately) by IndefiniteIceCube

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Tim, Duke & Steph

The world is gold and Duke can't breathe.

He can't breathe.

He was sitting in AP World History just a minute ago.

Was it a minute ago? It seemed like a minute ago but it could have been hours because all he can focus on is that he can’t breathe. His lungs won’t fill and- and he’s trying he swears but he just. can’t. breathe.

And the gold—

-----

Duke's powers emerge.

It doesn't go well.

7. Be the Light that Helps Others See by Ace_Corvid @ace-corvid

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Batfam

Duke didn't really know what to expect from movie nights with the Bats.

He could only assume they approached this with the same determined intensity as they approached everything else. They were all so extra it was like their gauge for normal was completely broke. He wasn't really prepared for this.

And yet here he was. Surrounded.

(Alternatively; Batkid's have a movie night.)

8. I've Made a Million Mistakes by Sohotthateveryonedied

“Y’all need Jethuth.”

Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Batfam

“Don’t worry,” Dick says, throwing his arm around Duke’s shoulders. “Everyone in this room has had their teeth knocked out at one point or another. It’s a rite of passage around here.”

“I don’t know how to tell you thith, but that doethn’t happen to normal people. We acthually prefer to keep our teeth, believe it or not.”

“Wait until you get your first major battle scar. Trust me, they’re cool.”

“Y’all need Jethuth.”

9. Children (All of Them) by TheFalconWarrior

Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Batfam

In which Tim is not stupid but Jason might just be, Damian is furious, Dick kind of feels like he should be doing…something, Steph is ecstatic, and Duke wonders how long he can survive.

10. In the Dark of the Night by Aelig

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Jason, Batfam

"Duke was woken up by someone sliding into his bed. Someone big judging by how the mattress shifted.

Because Duke was a well-trained vigilante, his first reflex was obviously to kick whoever was being creepy right now and push them out of his bed.

It was only when the someone landed on the floor with a yelp that Duke realized that he was at Wayne Manor, which was incredibly secure – normally. He could recognize the voice, too."

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: none

OR: The Batfam and their way to deal with nightmares.

11. Welcome to the Family by angstyelephant

In which Duke Thomas goes back to the beginning.

12. Family-- by incorrectbatfam

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & batfam

“Your assignment over the weekend is to write a poem about your family.”

13. I'm Still Climbing(Even When the Rest Have Fallen) by anidear

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Dick, Duke & Damian

After his first exposure to the Fear Toxin, Dick checks in on Duke.

14. The cat and the newcomer by Fleur_de_Violette

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Alfred the Cat

Duke always found people talking to their pets about their problems silly. And yet here he was.

15. Duke-napped by NightOwl1600

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Bruce, Duke & batfam

The others don’t really bother Duke with his business. They all care about him, he knows, but outside of the vigilante business, they don’t really care to ask aside from the typical “How was school?” or “Can you buy me some chilidogs after you’re done with whatever you’re doing?” So he’s a bit concerned if they’ll even notice when he’s been kidnapped as Duke Thomas, Bruce Wayne’s newest ward. But he’s not about to panic; as the others seem to be so determined that traumatizing new experiences are part of Bat-initiation.

Meanwhile, the rest of the family freaks out because “Did anyone go over the do’s and don’ts of getting kidnapped with Duke?!”

16. Nightmare/Hallucination by FearfulKitten @fearfulkittenwrites

Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Jason

Duke found himself staring at the ceiling again. His heart was no longer racing, but he wouldn’t exactly say that he was calm either. This is the moment after the end of a race you lost, when all of the adrenaline is starting to wear off and the hopelessness sets in. That’s it. You’re out of the competition, buddy.

Except that this isn’t a race, and Duke hasn’t just lost his spot for the finals. He had simply lost sleep.

17. Jason Todd, Big Brother Part 8792 by Gemini_00

Rating: General Audiences Category: Other Relationships: Duke & Jason, Duke & Damian

Robin and the Signal sneak along the Outlaws mission in order to steal a bazooka and hang out with Kori. Jason has to deal with two little brothers and feeding a team of outlaws. He's putting this on Bruce's credit

18. "What's wrong? What's happening?" By FearfulKitten @fearfulkittenwrites

Rating: General Audiences Category: Other Relationships: Duke & Tim

Duke runs into trouble during his daytime patrol, and ends up needing some back up. The resident over-productive insomniac bat picks up the call.

(A little bit of and Duke interaction for a nice tumblr Anon :) I hope you like it!)

19. Nightmares by FearfulKitten @fearfulkittenwrites

Rating: Teen Category: Other Relationships: Duke & Dick

Filling the nightmare square on my bingo card with the help of an anon on tumblr who asked for a fic where Duke has a nightmare and asks for the help of one of the older batboys!

"Duke checked the time again. Two minutes had passed.

Time was ticking too slowly. He was tired, but sitting alone in the dark was definitely not a good idea right now.

He’d have to ask for help."

20. Brothers in Arms by TheFalconWarrior

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Batfam

...possibly against each other. Batkid prank wars are the worst.

Duke is learning. Tim is evil. So is Damian. Dick is embarrassing. Jason is dramatic. Steph is brave. Babs is all-knowing. Cass wants in. Alfred is a little amused, and Bruce is so. Tired.

21. First rule of Robin, right? By ALzzza

Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Damian,Duke & Dick

"Nothing’s going to hurt you—you got that, nothing.”

Duke doesn’t have anything better to do but it’s not like that matters. Hell, he’d drop everything and run—always in time to catch this little bird.

Or, Damian’s Been Having Nightmares, Duke To The Rescue—Dick Always With The Reassurance

22. Duke's Diary by fiery_day

 Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Batfam,Duke & Dick

This is a couple of journal entries by Duke as he learns to become Signal. He relates his thoughts on the batfamily and aspects of the vigilante life he now leads.

23. Significance of a Gala by nxttime

Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Batfam,Duke & Jason, Duke & Tim

This year’s Wayne Gala would be Duke’s first, and he had no clue how to feel about it.

 25. The cloud that looks after each other by Batmango

Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Bruce, Duke & Goliath

Duke wakes up the Bat cave after a fight with the Joker.

For MashpotatoeQueen5 as a thanks for using so many of my prompt in the excellent January Jot-Downs.

Prompt: a hurt comfort after an injury/illness? Or just cuddles. I love me some cuddles.

26. The One You’ll Know By by Redrikki

Rating: Teen Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Bruce, Bruce & Alfred

After losing his memory, Bruce asked Alfred not to tell him about his vigilante life, but he's beginning to think his butler left a few other things out. Like, say, his kids.

27. Duke Thomas Hates Bullies by Gemini_00

Rating: Unrated Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Steph, Duke & Tim, Duke & Bruce, Duke & Damian

Everyone loves that Duke Thomas isn't like all those other crazy Waynes. Everyone loves that the Signal isn't trying to get himself killed. Duke may not see Bruce as his dad, but he is definitely part of the bat family. and nobody is going to bully his family. Or, Duke Thomas Kicks Ass.

28. batman is dancing to fortnight and this might as well happen because vigilante life is already so *Goddamn* weird (Duke Thomas: A Memoir) by MashpotatoeQueen5

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Bruce, Duke & Batfam

You may not have time to unpack all that, but Duke Thomas does.

(He doesn't get it either.)

(He loves his new crazy family nonetheless.)

29. In a World Where You Can Be Anything, Be Kind by RedHoodie1723

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Bruce, Duke & Batfam

Day Six of Batfam Week 2020: Take Your Child To Work Day

It was Duke's first time visiting Wayne Enterprises, and he couldn't help but be intrigued by the Martha Wayne Foundation.

30. You’re My Brother by blackpercy

Rating: General Audiences Category: Gen Relationships: Duke & Dick

Duke's missing his parents a lot and Dick comes in to help his little brother.

And that’s it for the list! I hope you enjoy these thirty works! Once again, send me an ask if you have requests for fics, recs, or if you have general questions!

#duke thomas #the signal #batfam #duke fic recs #batfam fic recs #fanfiction recs #dc comics #batman comics #fanfiction #request

[lonestarfangirl2014]

LONESTARS GUIDE TO THE WAYNES AND KANES OF GOTHAM CITY PART ONE REDUX

BRUCE WAYNES UNCLES AND AUNTS(Including by marriage) EDITION

WAYNES

“Waynes never stay down. We RISE”

The Wayne's are one of the so called first families of Gotham

also known as the Founding Families of Gotham or more simply, the Five Families are the five families affiliated with the creation of Gotham as a city.

AGATHA WAYNE

First appearance: Batman issue 89 February 1955

Agatha has been discribed as Thomas Wayne frail elder sister. She occasionally visits Bruce when he’s a adult. On Earth Two where she originally debuted it’s been said that she helped out the next person on this list with young Bruce whenever she could.

It could be possible that either Agatha or the next person on our list was the one to inherit the families gotham based ancestral home based on earth two/Golden age Bruce buying a mansion to live in shortly before becoming Batman

Agatha has a counterpart on new earth/post COIE who is said to be the only sibling of Thomas Wayne(still as a older sister.).

It is unknown if she has ever had kids. On Earth Two there is evidence that Bruce has at least one possibly 1st cousin on his fathers side who I will talk about in another post I’m planning on making about Bruce’s cousins.

PHILIP WAYNE (Not to be confused with Martha’s brother of the same first name whose farther down this list)

First Earth-One appearance: Batman issue 208 February 1969

Originally introduced in the earth-one era of comics it is later revealed that a Philip Wayne did exist on the earlier earth-two in Secret Origins Vol 2 #6 (September, 1986)

On both Earth-One and Earth-Two Philip Wayne was the one who took young Bruce in after he was orphaned.

It is unknown who is older between him and Thomas but based on the appearance of Earth-One Philip(white hair and mustache) I would say that Philip was the older one at least on that earth where both he and Thomas took charge of the family business AKA Wayne Enterprise.

On Earth-Two Thomas was the one to inherit the family fortune suggesting that he was the eldest of the two Wayne sons on that Earth. Earth-Two Philip is only seen once and it’s only a silhouette of him.

It is unknown if he has ever had kids. On Both Earth-Two as well as as Earth-One there is evidence that Bruce has at least one possible paternal 1st cousin on each. Both of them I will talk about in another post I’m planning on making about Bruce’s cousins.

Vanderveer Wayne SR.

first appearance: Powerless episode 3

For the sake of this post I will say a Fourth Wayne sibling to my knowledge has never appeared in the comics HOWEVER a paternal Uncle Of Bruce was introduced in the short lived TV show Powerless as Vanderveer Wayne SR.

Vanderveer Wayne, Sr. was the original boss of Wayne Security, before passing the job to his son Vanderveer Wayne Jr and taking a position on the board of directors of Wayne Enterprise.

Patricia Wayne

First Appearance: Pennyworth episode One

The elder sister of Thomas Wayne. She has been described and shown to be a typical rich party girl who according to Thomas apparently likes to cause scandals that drag the Wayne name through the mud. The foolish sibling to Thomas responsible sibling. They bicker and she calls him names but like any typical siblings they still love eachother.

ON PRIME EARTH/NEW 52 it is said that Thomas Wayne was a only child. As of may 4 2021 none of the other Wayne siblings has so far made a appearance in Any Comics set on Prime earth. But hey screw Canon right?

KANES

“We Stand TOGETHER”

The Kane family was cited as being so rich that the only parts of Gotham that were not owned by them were those owned by the Wayne Family.

NATHAN KANE

First mentioned in Batman Incorporated(don’t quote me on that) taking place on New Earth And is confirmed to exist on Prime Earth as well.

Not much is known about Nathan. We don’t even have a proper picture of him. What we do know is that he is the eldest son(Batman Incorporated vol 1 #4)and he was the one who inherited both the family fortune as well as the family Crest Hill Estate after family Patriarch and Matriarch Roderick and Elizabeth/Elisabeth(seen it spelt both ways) both died. He is called the golden scion of the family.

On New Earth He married the original Batwoman aka Katherine Webb-Kane the year Batman became active in Gotham. He was apparently 40 when he started dating 25 year old Kathy Webb-Kane, 43 when he finally married(the year Batman age 25 debuted in Gotham) and 47 when he died.

Kathy Webb-Kane/ Katrina “Luka” Netz.

First Earth-One appearance: Detective Comics #233 (July, 1956)

First Earth-Two Appearance: The Brave and the Bold #182 (January, 1982)

First New Earth Appearance:Batman #678 (August, 2008)

First Prime Earth Appearance:Batman Incorporated Vol 2 #10 (June, 2013

The Original Batwoman!

Strap in because this is a long one.

On Earth-One her history is as follows: Kathy Kane was a wealthy heiress who gained great acrobatic skills during her career as a circus trapeze artist and stunt cyclist. Becoming infatuated with the Batman, she fashioned herself a costume and secret hide-out and started operating as Batwoman. At first she upstaged Batman and his sidekick Robin in capturing crooks. However, Batman eventually learned her true identity and tracked her to her secret cave hide-out. Showing her how easily it was for him to learn her identity, Batman pointed out that criminals could probably do it just as easily and tried to convince her to drop out of crime fighting. Disobeying Batman's advice, she tried to capture mobster Curt Briggs. During this caper, Batman went missing and Briggs, struck with amnesia, left thinking he was Batman. Ultimately the real Batman reappeared, and Biggs was turned over to the police. Afterwards, Batwoman went back to retirement. However, Kathy Kane became tired of the dull life of a rich heiress and came out of retirement once more in order to recapture a criminal named Elton Cragg. It was during this case that Batwoman gained super-powers and after her heroic deeds, she convinced Batman to let her continue her crime-fighting career. Ironically, around this time, Kathy started dating Bruce Wayne and she started to fall in love with Batman, unaware that they were the same person.

When Bruce Wayne was framed for a crime he didn't commit, Batwoman teamed-up with Robin in order to clear Batman's name. During an undercover mission, Batwoman was captured by a criminal leader and was rescued by the Dynamic Duo. When both Batwoman and reporter Vicki Vale were nominated Gotham City's "Woman of the Year", both tried to upstage each other to get the lead in the contest. With the help of Batman and Robin, both Vicki and Batwoman captured Moose Molloy's gang and both were crowned woman of the year. When Batman and Robin were trapped in a cave in, Ace the Bat-Hound guided Batwoman to help free them and capture the criminal Dr. Midas. Batwoman next helped the Dynamic Duo capture Firefly, aided them in preventing Lex Luthor from atomizing Superman, and helped them capture the Spinner. Batwoman later met with Bat-Mite and working together, they captured some crooks to save the Dynamic Duo.After this adventure, Bat-Mite became infatuated with Batwoman and tried to become her sidekick, creating chaos for everyone until he realized his mistake and left. When trying to solve the mystery of who murdered Professor Lacy after his discovery of a living caveman, Batwoman was saved by the caveman who sacrificed himself to save her from Lacy's killer: Harbin, Lacy's assistant. When Kathy Kane purchased a mystical belt, she becames a target of the criminal Star-Man. The belt sucked Batwoman's life energy from her body and she was saved by Batman and Robin, who arrived in time to stop Star-Man.

When Kathy's niece Betty Kane came to visit her, the young girl learned of her aunt's double identity. Kathy agreed to train Betty to be her sidekick, thinking that the young girl would eventually lose interest. However, to her surprise, Betty proved capable and became Batwoman's sidekick Bat-Girl. On their first mission, the two women helped Batman and Robin defeat King Cobra and his gang.Batwoman then became a victim of Luthor's experiments, who manipulated Kathy and gave her super-powers to fight her allies. After a long struggle, Superman managed to break Lex's control over Kathy and she returned to normal.When Batman and Robin were briefly transformed into alien creatures, Batwoman was one of the few who actually believed they were the real Dynamic Duo, until they were restored to normal.She later helped Batman and Robin capture the "Rockets" Rogan Gang. Later, after Batman and Batwoman were captured by the Moth, they were rescued by Bat-Girl and Robin. Later, Kathy went on a date with Bruce Wayne to an amusement park that was previously the location where the Justice League of America recently had a battle.As Batwoman, Kathy joined Batman on a trip to Washington D.C. to testify to the Senate Committee, leaving their young sidekicks to defend Gotham City in their absence.She next aided Batman and Robin in capturing the criminal known as the Vulcan.

Kathy's romances with Bruce Wayne and Batman became rocky, first during a period where Bruce Wayne was briefly transformed into a child, he made it appear that he's seeing another woman in order to keep Kathy away,and later when Batman, while under the effect of a love potion, fell in love with a woman named Elsie.Kathys romance woes became more complicate when Alpha, the Experimental Man fell in love with her, until the artificial man sacrificed himself to save her from falling off a cliff.

When helping Batman and Robin solve a murder during Mardis Gras, she got into a feud with Vicki Vale over who is the right person for Batman, forming the first of many competitions for Batman's affections.She later helped Batman capture Catman.

When she and Batman were briefly transported to another dimension by invaders from that world, their mortality was in question unless they were freed. During this period, Batwoman managed to get Batman to warm up and admit some of his feelings toward her before they were rescued by Robin and Bat-Girl.

Batwoman's feud with Vicki Vale heat up again when both women tried to determine if Mirror Man's assertions that Bruce Wayne was really Batman were true. When Batman scolded Batwoman for getting in the way of his attempts to capture Catman, she faked her intentions to join the criminal as Cat-Woman, until Catman seemingly died in the battle.Batwoman and Bat-Girl later helped the Dynamic Duo end a feud between the Joker and Clayface,and helped Batman and Robin capture the Terrible Trio

Once more suspecting that Batman and Bruce Wayne are the same man, Kathy Kane was convinced otherwise when Superman posed as Batman. However the plan went awry when a bomb goes off seemingly killing "Batman" and necessitating Superman to pose as the ghost of Batman for a time.

When Batman was briefly transformed into a gigantic creature, Batwoman teamed-up with Robin and Ace the Bat-Hound to track down the crooks that have the cure. After this, Catman reappeared and discovered his costume had mystical properties that gave him nine-lives, allowing him to continue on his crime spree. With her Cat-Woman costume, Batwoman helped Batman and Robin capture him.

Following this adventure, Batwoman went into retirement and disappear from Batman's life almost entirely. She become the owner of a circus, but often longed to return to her former crime fighting career.

Batwoman came out of retirement to aid Batgirl(Barbara Gordon)against Killer Moth and the Cavalier, but her return was never intended to be permanent.Kathy Kane was then present at a surprise party for Bruce Wayne at Wayne Manor.When Batwoman was later disintegrated into nothingness on Barbara Gordon's doorstep, Batgirl and Robin teamed-up to find the cure and restore Batwoman to her normal form. Shortly after this, Batwoman met the Huntress from Earth-Two and aided her in capturing Catwoman, Poison Ivy and Madame Zodiac. When the Freedom Fighters of Earth-X searched for a group of criminals known as the Warmakers, their search led them to the carnival owned by Kathy Kane. Kathy, as Batwoman, aided the Freedom Fighters and Batgirl in defeating the Warmakers. In her last recorded adventure, Kathy Kane was murdered by the League of Assassins who were being manipulated by Ra's al Ghul. Her death was eventually avenged by Batman.

Katherine Kane was also known as Batwoman in the Earth-Two timeline. Her history and career are said to reflect that of her Earth-One counterpart, except for that version's untimely death. When Kathy adopted the role of Batwoman, Batman wanted her to retire from the role for fear that she would be hurt in her costumed exploits. Kane would continue to operate in her costumed identity until she learned that Batman had become deeply romantically interested in someone in his unmasked identity. While Wayne never revealed his identity to her, or explicitly told her of his private life, she said she knew of his change in his attitude to her and assumed as such. She largely retired from her costumed role soon after this. Years later, she learned that Wayne was the original Batman when his costume identity was revealed to the general public after his own demise. Not long after this, Kane resumed her costumed identity when she learned of the presence of a "new" Batman. When she found him, Kathy learned that this Batman belonged in the alternate timeline of Earth-One, but the emotional shock of seeing Batman alive was still great. However, Kathy realized that he was not the love of her life reborn, but was a completely new person.

On New Earth her history is as follows

By age 25, Kathy Webb was an underground film director, a poet, and something of a wild child. But when she met Nathan Kane(who we already established as being a brother to Martha Wayne) , he bought her a circus, and she fell head-over-heels in love with him. They were together for seven years and married for four of those same years(thus making her a aunt by marriage to Bruce,Kate, Beth, And Bette) before he died of a stroke. After this, she was approached by a secret organization called Spyral to find out Batman's secret identity. Assessing the information on the Caped Crusader, she decided the best approach was to make him chase her. To that end, she brushed up on detective skills, martial arts and motor-biking, got a costume and started calling herself Batwoman. Her plan worked, and within a few months they were an item. However, Batman was careful not to give her his secret identity, and in fact worked out hers first. This, coupled with her feelings for Batman, lead her to try and break off ties with Spyral. However, her employer, the mysterious Agent-Zero, turned the tables on her, forcing her to break off on both sides, which she did. She was believed to be killed by the Bronze Tiger on behalf of the League of Assassins. The second Batwoman Kate Kane(who like Her cousins Bruce and Bette is Kathy’s relative by way of marriage) investigated the murder, but could not find anything. That was because she was never killed; after a staged death, she worked behind the scenes with Spyral to stop Leviathan. She eventually succeeded in shooting Talia al Ghul during her final standoff with Batman, before claiming that she would not be meeting Batman again, leaving to continue leading Spyral.

On Prime Earth she is Katrina "Luka" Netz one of Spyral's oldest members and the daughter of the former Director of Spyral Herr Netz. Kathy presumably being a alias that she used. Based on what I read in the comics I believe her role as Batwoman is still be canon due to nightwing recognizing her voice at one point and if not then at least her marriage to Nathan Kane is still canon.

PHILIP KANE

First appearance: Batman vol 2 issue 21 August 2013

Introduced during Zero Year(the volume he’s introduced in isn’t in the hardback version however) on Prime Earth Philip Kane ran Wayne Enterprise in Bruce’s absence. While Bruce was traveling the world training, Philip held down the business with his adviser Edward Nygma(we all know how well that turned out)

He had studied to be a geologist as a younger man, he was on a Expedition in northern Mexico when his father Roderick learned that he was dying and had came to get Philip to take him back home. Philip and his father fought because he didn’t want to go. Their fighting resulted in Philip splitting his head open which resulted in him getting a metal plate in his head.

He had given up that dream to take up the responsibility of helping to run the family business. During the Time that Bruce was abroad Philip managed to in his own words “Finally Merged the families” with both families companies(Kane Materials/Kane indrustries, Wayne Industry)seemingly merging into Wayne Enterprise.

Philip was the one who had Bruce Wayne declared legally dead which Bruce originally didn’t want to reverse. Philip Kane was also the one who was able to mostly track where Bruce was during his training. Not even Alfred knew where he was.

Philip was unfortunately blackmailed like many other citizens of Gotham by Red Hood One into joining the Red Hood gang. Being branded “Red Hood 347”, Philip did the bidding of the gang leader until Kane turned. During Batman’s assault on Red Hood One at the Ace chemical processing plant(which ironically on new earth used to belong to the Kane family as Kane Chemicals before being sold and the company Renamed Ace Chemicals )Philip gave his life to distract the Red Hood while the villain was going to kill Batman.

Trivia:Philip Kane was the one who originally own the Giant Penny whose forging he had overseen himself.

THE UNSEEN UNNAMED PARENTS OF MARY ELIZABETH(Bette) KANE

No names or appearances have ever been given for these two.

Bette’s mom was mentioned in one issue of Batwoman and that was it. Seriously it was one where it's implied she already gave up on her daughter surviving her injuries and so she was off panel implied to be talking to the doctors about donating bettes organs or something when Jacob kane was rambling besides a comatose bette. Yeah it was implied that they moved out to the west coast and lived in California because I believe that's where bette grew up in most continuities.

Next up is one every one who kept up with Bat related related comics since 2011 should be very familiar with

JACOB KANE

First New Earth Appearance: 52 #7 (August, 2006)(in a photograph alongside his second wife)/Detective Comics issue 854 August 2009

First Prime Earth Appearance: Batwoman Vol 2 #0 (November, 2012)

A lifelong soldier, Jacob had been a field officer with USSOCOM for most of his career, leading numerous tactical operations across the globe

He and his first wife Gabi are parents to twins Beth and Kate Kane

Jacob has earned the following military awards: the Army Achievement Medal, the Kosovo Campaign Medal, the Afghanistan Campaign Medal, the Iraq Campaign Medal, the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal, the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, the NATO Medal for Kosovo, the Kuwait Liberation Medal, the Presidential Unit Citation, the Meritorious Unit Commendation, and an Army Aviator Badge. Jacob has worked extensively with military intelligence services.

The Kanes often moved due to the nature of Jacob and Gabi’s work. Jacob was frequently away from home, since his duties included intervention in various international military crises.

They eventually moved to Brussels in Belgium, since the parents were now serving at NATO. However, the family was soon torn apart due to a terrorist attack. Gabi took her daughters out to celebrate their twelfth birthday, and they were kidnapped by heavily armed men. Military intelligence eventually located the hostages, and Jacob was put in charge of the tactical unit sent to rescue them. However, they were too late, as his wife had been executed and his daughter Elizabeth was believed to be dead. He rescued Kate himself, but she was traumatized by the sight of her dead mother and sister.

Colonel Kane plays an important role in his daughter’s Batwoman operations. He provides her a one-man command, control, and communications center. They stay in constant radio link, with the elder Kane being able to run searches, provide advice, and generally work in the background using his considerable knowledge, contacts and experience. Colonel Kane primarily uses his connections and his intelligence-gathering and management skills. He has access to numerous databases that are normally only accessible to military and law enforcement personnel to provide intel to his daughter.

Jacob is the next kane sibling most people would know about in part thanks to both his comic appearances In multiple bat comics as well as his appearance on the arrowverse batwoman tv show.

Gabrielle Kane(knee Goldstein in the arrowverse)

First New Earth Appearance: Detective Comics 855 September 2009

First Prime Earth Appearance: Batwoman volume 2 issue 27 March 2014

Captain Gabi Kane is the mother of Kate Kane (who later became Batwoman) and her identical twin Beth Kane. A member of the US Army’s 525th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade, she married another soldier, Jacob Kane. Both Kanes worked extensively with military intelligence services, and often moved as a result, even after their children were born. On Prime Earth When her sister-in-law Martha died she went to the funeral with both her husband and Kids. She reminded her husband that not all of Martha was dead(referring to Bruce) Eventually, the Kanes moved to Brussels, Belgium, since the parents were now serving at NATO. The family, however, was torn apart due to a terrorist attack. As Gabi was taking her daughters for their 12th birthday, they were kidnapped by heavily armed men. Military intelligence eventually located the hostages, and Jacob was put in charge of the tactical unit sent to rescue them. However, they were too late, as Gabi had been executed. Jacob rescued Kate himself, but she was traumatized by the sight of her dead mother and her supposedly dead sister.

TRIVIA: Gabi had a tattoo of the Special Forces arrowhead insignia on her right bicep; her daughter Kate later copied this.

Catherine Hamilton-Kane

First New Earth appearance: 52 #7 (August, 2006)(in a photograph alongside her husband)/Detective Comics Vol 1 #856 October, 2009

First Prime Earth Appearance: Batwoman Vol 2 #0 (November, 2012)

Heiress to the Hamilton arms fortune(called Hamilton dynamics in the batwoman tv show), and second wife of Jacob Kane.

Cathy is a jet-setter and socialite involved in politics.The Hamilton fortune was built upon guns. Catherine family owned the enormously successful Hamilton company, which apparently became a household name during the days of the Old West Firearms. Appears to care greatly for her niece by marriage(one can assume she might feel the same for Bruce if and when she finds out he’s Batman) if the way she reacted to finding out about Bette being a vilgilante in the comics is any indication.

#dc comics #batman #batfamily #kane family #wayne family #agatha wayne #philip wayne #van wayne #Patricia wayne #philip kane #jacob kane #kathy kane #Katherine Hamilton #gabi kane #waynes and kanes #info #bat lore

[longitudinalwaveme]

Longitudinalwaveme Reviews Some More Old Comics (and One New One), Part 2

Batman #321, “Dreadful Birthday, Dear Joker...!” 

The story opens with Commissioner Gordon receiving an invitation to the Joker’s birthday party. “Black tie optional, funny hats mandatory”. A few seconds later, everyone in police headquarters doubles over laughing, the victims of Joker’s, well, Joker gas. 

Batman is on the scene only a few seconds later, and starts punching out Joker’s goons. Unfortunately, by the time he’s finished doing this, both Joker and Commissioner Gordon have disappeared. 

Eminently Quotable Joker: “Ah---the Batman! What an expected surprise! And what a waste of a perfectly good window! Couldn’t you have used the door?” 

As Joker leaves in his Jokermobile, the police officers tell Batman that the Joker also captured Robin earlier that day (by pretending to be a woman with car problems!) 

Meanwhile, Selina Kyle, Lucius Fox, and Alfred are talking when the Joker bursts in and kidnaps them as well. Notably, Selina mentions that she’s been having terrible headaches. 

Selina Kyle wakes up in a room with Batman; the other kidnapees wake up in the Joker’s “Ha-Hacienda” on his “victim-go-round”. 

Eminently Quotable Joker: “Tomorrow is my birthday, and by way of celebration, I intend to eliminate all you who’ve crossed me, while all of Gotham watches! It’s not exactly the catcher’s mitt I really wanted...but it’s a pretty fair second place! HAHAHAHAHAHA!” 

Hawkman stars in a Hostess cupcake ad! 

The Joker murders one of his own henchman with his “BANG!” flag gun for not laughing at his joke. 

Eminently Quotable Joker (in response to Robin saying “You’re out of your mind!”): “Gloriously so! Isn’t it wonderful?” 

In order to get his audience, the Joker put an ad in the newspaper that states that the “Harlequin Baking Company” will be inviting all of Gotham to  sample its wares at the Seaside Coliseum. AND IT WORKS, because everyone in Gotham has the IQ of turnips. A bazillion people come to the Coliseum to get free food. 

Joker dramatically reveals himself to everyone and explains that he’s going to blow up all the people he hates with a giant cake bomb. Then Batman arrives and offers himself in exchange for the other hostages. This goes exactly how you’d expect it to go, but Batman manages Batman his way out of the trap, saving both himself and all of his friends. 

Joker runs away and jumps into a boat. Batman follows him, they fight for a bit, and then the Joker apparently blows himself up. But he’s not dead, because nothing can kill the Joker. Batman even says so. 

This would’ve made a great episode of B:TAS. 

Batman #322, “Chaos--Coming and Going!” 

And now for something completely different! 

Catwoman looks at a bunch of old newspaper clippings of herself, as the comic hints fairly subtly that she might be unwell (just as her headaches last issue did). 

Meanwhile, a van is delivering issues of the tabloid The Gotham Guardian...when a thrown bundle of newspapers is intercepted by a boomerang! Captain Boomerang is in Gotham City! 

The two men in the van react by promptly trying to run Digger over....only for him to slice their van in half with a boomerang!

Digger yells at them to tell their boss that this was only a warning: the mysterious boss owes him a million dollars, and he wants it in 24 hours or else. 

Then Batman shows up out of nowhere and he and Boomerang get into a fight. Digger distracts Batman by using his exploding boomerang to damage a nearby building. This causes some rubble to fall on one of the drivers. Batman goes to rescue him, and Digger vanishes. 

Green Arrow stars in a Hostess fruit pie ad! 

Batman talks to Alfred about Captain Boomerang, telling him to ask Lucius Fox to find out who owns the Guardian, since he’s probably Boomerang’s next target. He also refuses to call the Flash in for help. “The night I can’t handle a punk like Boomerang is the night I hang up my cowl!” 

Catwoman goes to a doctor and it’s confirmed that she is, in fact, dying. She has less than a month to live and the only cure is some Egyptian herbs that have been lost to time. 

Meanwhile, Captain Boomerang lets us know that he hates Gotham. “Lor’, but I hate this cronky town! I never would’ve come her from Central City if it wasn’t for my million quid!” 

Apparently, Captain Boomerang set up a retirment fund for himself and is ticked off that has money was subsequently stolen. 

“It’s really rum--downright ironic! The one time I play the game by their rules--and it’s me who gets taken for a sucker! Well, nobody crosses “Digger” Harkness--and gets away with it intact!” That’s our Digger! 

Also, he has a giant boomerang hidden under a tarp. 

Catwoman goes to the museum to see a display about cats...and conveniently, some ancient Egyptian medicinal herbs are there. Catwoman determines to take them so she can save herself. 

Batman asks the most Irish Irishman to ever walk the pages of the comic book about where he might be able to find Captain Boomerang, but he hasn’t heard anything. Then Alfred calls Batman and tells him that Lucius has discovered that the Gotham Guardian is owned by a corporation which serves as a front for a guy named Gregorian Falstaff. 

The man in question is eating dinner at a hotel when he is rudely interrupted by Captain Boomerang, who knocks out Falstaff’s bodyguard and demands his money. Falstaff plays dumb, claiming that the whole thing was an unfortunate accident and offering to write him a check. Boomerang insists that it’s cash or nothing (since he doesn’t trust Falstaff). Then Batman shows up, and Digger throws a smoke bomb boomerang that distracts Batman long enough for him to knock him out with another boomerang. 

“You gave it a fair dinkum try, cobber-but fair ain’t enough when  you’re dealin’ with the likes of me!’” Didgeridoo! Crikey! Steve Irwin! Can you tell I’m Australian yet? 

Selina Kyle tries to call Bruce but can’t get ahold of him, so she decides to take matters into her own hands and pulls out her Catwoman costume. 

When Batman comes to, he’s been tied to the giant boomerang. 

“Nothin’ permanent, mate--you’re simply tied to my giant rocket-powered boomerang! Only Flash’s super-speed saved him from the original--and without super-powers you’ll never escape this improved version!” So...which one of the giant boomerangs you used to launch the Flash into space are we talking about here, Digger? Because there’ve been at least four at this point. 

Boomerang launches the boomerang into the air and it explodes. Digger is naturally convinced that he’s killed Batman, only for Batman to promptly prove him wrong by showing up alive and well. “Nobody could possibly survive a flight on my Doomerang!” Oh, Digger...

Batman explains that he survived by “maneuvering my bonds toward the Doomerang’s rocket-jets--and the ignition-flames freed me! Then I simply slipped away under the cover of all that smoke before the Doomerang took off!” I love that Batman also calls the thing a Doomerang (with a totally straight face, mind you.) 

Then Digger throws a boomerang at Batman at the same time Batman throws a Batarang at him. But because Batman is Batman, he wins the boomerang duel and knocks Digger out. Way to take away Digger’s only accomplishment there, Batman. It’s like if Superman won any of his races against the Flash. 

Batman decides to investigate Falstaff. 

Meanwhile, at the museum, someone who looks like Catwoman is stealing one of the exhibits....

Flash #286, “The Color Schemes of the Rainbow Raider”

This issue introduces the greatest villain of all time...the dreaded Rainbow Raider! 

After a long day at work, Barry Allen is heading home...only for an alarm to go off at the Centrex Art Museum! Barry has to promptly go into action as the Flash as Barry thinks about how tired he is. Apparently, his new police chief, Darryl Frye, has made him work overtime three times in one week alone. 

Suddenly, a rainbow appears, bewildering Barry, as it hasn’t rained for the past week. Barry runs inside the museum to find the guards crying inexplicably. Barry deduces that the thief has been altering their emotions and realizes that this is probably not one of his established Rogues. 

Sure enough, he soon comes face-to-face with the Rainbow Raider!

“Welcome, Flash! I didn’t think you and I would be meeting so soon...but sooner or later we were bound to clash! Allow me to introduce myself! I am the Rainbow Raider---the most colorful criminal this city’s ever seen!” Oh, Roy. You’re so amazingly silly, and we wouldn’t have it any other way. 

Roy shoots a beam of blue light at Barry, who somehow deduces that this was what enabled him to mess with the emotions of the guards. Barry dodges the blast of blue light, but it hit and knocked out by a blast of black light. 

The police are suitably baffled by the Rainbow Raider, who, incidentally, signed his crime scene with “The Rainbow Raider was here!” That’s amazing. 

Meanwhile, the Flash runs home, for the Rainbow Raider has...uh....sucked all of the color out of his body! Somehow! Wha? 

Meanwhile, in a mobile trailer, Roy is gloating to himself. “Now I know I’m ready for the big leagues--on a par with seasoned criminals like Captain Cold and Mirror Master!” Uh...sure, Roy. 

Batman and Catman star in a Hostess cupcake ad! 

“Roy G. Bivolo is compelled by higher motivations--like art appreciation!” 

Roy reveals that he suffers from achromotopsia, a rare form of colorblindness that means he sees the world entirely in greyscale. This fact apparently scuppered his burgeoning artistic career, because the art critics of Central City have never heard of black-and-white artwork even though it totally exists. 

Also, Roy’s dad was apparently a, quote, “leading world-renowned optometrist”, and he tried to create goggles that would allow Roy to see color. He passed away shortly after Roy turned 21; having finished the googles just days before. 

When Roy tested them a few weeks later, he found that they hadn’t cured his colorblindness...but that they could shoot out “bands of multi-colored solid light particles that I could literally “ride” through the sky”. Roy then uses his father’s notes to unlock even more abilities with his goggles. Eventually, his mother also passed away, and Roy decided to turn to crime. 

“Since I was robbed of a brilliant art career as a painter--I think it’s only fitting that I rob others....rob them of the pleasure they’ve derived all these years from priceless works of art I myself have never been able to enjoy! If I can’t see them in all their glory---then neither will anyone else!” Roy...that’s insane. 

Barry Allen fails in his attempt to flirt with Fiona Webb, then exposits about pseudoscience. “The color black appears black because it absorbs the light waves of all other colors...without reflecting them! Those black beams the Rainbow Raider enveloped me with must’ve had a similar effect--saturating my body with radiation that prevents me from reflecting any and all light-waves...leaving me totally colorless!” SCIENCE! 

Barry uses makeup and hair day to make himself look normal. As a result, he’s 20 minutes late to work and gets chewed out by his boss. 

Also: “The unnatural inner-vibrations from this color drain are steadily sapping more and more energy from my molecules by the minute!” More SCIENCE! 

Barry is about to get to work when he hears about the opening of the Skytop Art Gallery. Assuming that this would be an ideal target for the Rainbow Raider, he goes into action as the Flash. 

Roy has created a distraction by using his emotional manipulation powers to get all of the art patrons to fight each other while he escapes. Barry runs up a building and onto Rainbow Raider’s rainbow...whereupon Raider shoots a blinding light at him, causin him to slip off the rainbow and almost fall to his doom. Luckily, his ability to vibrate through anything saves his life, as he manages to vibrate through a green car he was about to land on. 

Barry then finds that he’s turned totally green. ‘I must’ve been vibrating on the precise wavelength of the color green when I passed through this heap--somehow allowing me to regain my capacity to absorb green light-waves!” SCIENCE! He then starts running through vehicles of other colors to regain his capacity to absorb those light-waves, too. Since Raider is colorblind, he can’t figure out what the Flash is up to. 

When Raider takes one last blast at the Flash, the effects restore him to normal, and Flash is able to make quick work of the Rainbow Raider. 

I love the Rainbow Raider so much.

#flash comics #batman comics #dc comics

[ayamari-no-goshi]

So you read a lot of comics, yeah? I have a question

How did the batfam actually get jason to.. *stop* trying to murder them? Like? Nobody ever mentions that fact?

I'm not quite as well read as I seem. I don't know if this is across the board or not, but a lot of the ones I end up reading/attempting to read will reference events and give you what issue that event occurred in. It makes things a little easier.

Before I get into this, I'm not an expert on this by any means. I'm also not completely certain if the first 2 story lines I mention are still cannon. BECAUSE DC CAN'T MAKE UP ITS MIND

Anyways, the easy answer is the batfam took more of a passive approach on it after he started showing signs of reform. Once he rejoined them, Bruce did set some rules for allowing Jason to operate in Gotham.

Line break because people care about spoilers.

You can argue 'reform' starts in "Batman and Robin: Revenge of the Red Hood". Most of this arc was another "elaborate" scheme by Jason. At the end, Bruce is believed to be dead, and Jason is yelling at Dick why didn't he think to use the Lazarus Pits for Bruce while being taking to prison.

Then we get into "Batman and Robin: the streets run red." Jason has some fun with the prisoners in traditional Red Hood fashion before a group of mercenaries who state they're to deliver him to his former partner, Scarlet, broke him out. He ended up teaming up with Batman, Robin (Damian), and Nightwing to rescue Scarlet who had gotten captured. After everything is said and done, Jason and Scarlet escape via helicopter, because why not? As Batman and Robin are chasing them, Jason says he's hidden bombs throughout the city causing them to stop. He has not - it's a bluff. Nightwing makes a mention that he's starting to reform and will rejoin them when ready.

From there, then we get into Red Hood and the Outlaws with him teaming up with Arsenal and Starfire (there's also a series that's called Red Hood/Arsenal where it's just Jason and Roy). Here, he's actively working on bettering himself and reconciliation with his family occurs.

Now, Bruce and Jason have had repeated falling outs. One dealt with Bruce trying to figure out how Jason came back to life after Damian died so he could bring back Damian (I believe the resurrection where he woke up in his coffin is what's referenced). Another, which actually got Jason kicked out of Gotham for a time, was when Jason fired a blank within inches of Penguin's face. The force of the blast destroyed Penguin's monocle which then acted like shrapnel and hospitalized the villain.

To me, it honestly seems like allowing Jason to have someone to care about has done more to center him than any forceful attempt.

There's a newer storyline I still need to read that gives more insight into Jason's relationship with Bruce when he was Robin. AND FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT IT'S CALLED T_T

So, there's also Red Hood: the lost days. That views what happens from his resurrection to right before the start of Under the Red Hood. And in a way, it's almost like he was led to give in to the obsessive thoughts

#thanks for the ask #I tried my best to answer

[makerkenzie]

Sansa learns the limits of Family.

An idea that keeps coming up in Sansa’s arc is what I describe as: “Family is not destiny.”

Does Sansa love her family? Of course. She loves them, she misses them, she will always regret not having more time with her mother and Robb. 

Westeros is a setting in which politics are tangled up with family dynamics. A noble family represents power as much as it represents love. Members of noble families, especially children, are treated as assets of their Houses before they’re seen as individuals. Examples: any noble marriage ever, fosterage, squiring, service, hostage-taking, and expectations of combat service. 

Sansa knows this; she’s lived it. Her marriage to Joffrey would’ve represented an alliance with House Baratheon and, because we’re talking about the royal family, it would’ve given House Stark much more influence on the governance of the realm. Her being kept as hostage was meant to affect her brother’s political ambitions. Her marriage to Tyrion was supposed to put House Stark’s assets under the Lannisters’ control. She grew up with Theon as a de facto sibling but his purpose in the Starks’ household was to keep his father under control. 

In this system, the family determines the individual’s reputation. Individuals from more powerful Houses are generally treated with more deference and generosity than those from poorer and lower-positioned Houses. From the perspective of a noble child, individuals from the “right” Houses are to be trusted and those from the “wrong” Houses are to be regarded with the most uncharitable assumptions.

In the culture of Westerosi nobility, one is viewed by one’s surname, first, and one’s actions...later. 

As the child of a Paramount-level family---especially, having grown up with loving parents and affectionate siblings---it would be understandable if Sansa bought into this culture. Her own mother’s House motto is “Family, Duty, Honor.” It would be understandable if Sansa were inclined to conflate family ties with one’s sense of duty and honor, and assume everyone else did the same. 

Having been forcibly separated from her family for so long, while kept hostage by people who don’t care to make her feel safe and welcome...it would be understandable if Sansa became more entrenched in the belief of surname as a representation of character.

She’s going in the opposite direction.

Sansa has interacted enough with the royal family to see that they are not a monolith. The non-viability of her marriage to Tyrion is a separate issue from his behavior. When Aunt Lysa asks, Sansa recalls Tyrion as...kind. 

She knows Podrick Payne is related to Ilyn Payne and she doesn’t hold that against him. He’s a nice kid trying to survive in the Red Keep and he didn’t ask to be born into the same House as the official headsman. 

In an early chapter in AGOT, King Robert is making a loud drunken scene at Cersei, and Jaime is the only man there who tries to get him to settle down. Even after Robert knocks him on his ass, he keeps his cool. This is in Sansa’s POV. Contrast that with Ser Barristan, and Renly, and oh, all the other men at the feast who could have intervened, and didn’t. 

When Joffrey was having his Kingsguard knights beat her, Tyrion was the one who put a stop to it, and Sandor Clegane--a kingsguard at that point--used his cloak to cover her. This happens in front of the court in the throne room. Tyrion’s move is the bolder one but Sandor’s kindness is still meaningful. By putting that cloak on Sansa’s body, he is quietly showing the court that he sympathizes with the Stark girl, not the king. Later, he rescues Sansa from the mob in Flea Bottom, and not on Joffrey’s orders. She remembers Sandor coming to her aid. Meanwhile his older brother is leading the Lannister troops’ invasion of the Riverlands. Sandor is nothing like his brother and Sansa knows that. 

She knows Tyrion is not like Cersei. Tommen is not like Joffrey. Podrick is not like Ser Ilyn. Jaime is not like the other Kingsguard. Sandor is not like his brother, not like the other Lannister vassals, not like the other Kingsguard, either. 

Either way, Littlefinger takes her out of the Red Keep and up to Aunt Lysa and Cousin Robin at the Eyrie. It’s the first time she’s been around blood relations since her father was executed. First of all, Aunt Lysa starts talking about marrying Sansa to Robin, which, first of all, yuck, and second: because Lysa is the only adult family member presently available to Sansa, she’s not really in a position to refuse. Anyway, because Sansa can’t catch a break from people trying to plant their flags on her ass, Littlefinger starts molesting her. Aunt Lysa, being the nearest equivalent to a parent in Sansa’s life...treats her like a homewrecker.

Aunt Lysa was born into House Tully, the one whose motto is “Family, Duty, Honor.” When she sees her new husband behaving inappropriately with her teenage niece, she tries to toss the girl out the Moon Door. Is that what Family-Duty-Honor looks like? Granted, Lord Hoster fucked up with Lysa pretty hard, but there’s no need to take that out on your sister’s daughter. 

Now this much is bad enough: Sansa’s own aunt is trying to kill her out of jealousy. There’s that. The much bigger issue is where the conversation goes as Littlefinger talks Lysa down from the literal and figurative ledge. She mentions that she killed her first husband, Hand of the King Lord Jon Arryn, using the poison Littlefinger gave her. She wrote to Catelyn, at Littlefinger’s instructions, and told her the Lannisters killed Jon. 

If we recall: Ned and Cat spent all of AGOT trying to prove the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. The fallout from that investigation started the War of Five Kings and cost Ned his life. Because of that fallout, Sansa was held hostage at the Red Keep and forced into marriage with Tyrion. Because of that fallout, Cat and Robb have just been murdered at the Red Wedding and Arya is off who knows where doing Seven only knows what. Far as Sansa knows, her brothers Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon Greyjoy and she has no way of knowing Arya is even alive. Aunt Lysa is the only family member left in a position to take care of Sansa now, because of the war she and Littlefinger started. 

In more news of Littlefinger’s machinations: because he conspired with the Tyrells to frame Tyrion for Joffrey’s murder, Sansa’s life at the Red Keep went from uncomfortable to untenable, with Littlefinger being the only one ready to rescue her. She’s dependent on him because of his political sabotage, so now he’s molesting her at her aunt’s house, and her aunt has to be coaxed and cajoled out of killing her. 

It’s because of Littlefinger’s machinations that the Lannisters became the Starks’ enemies. Granted there’s no version of this story in which the AGOT-era Starks and Lannisters are buddies, but there could’ve been a story where they haven’t been actively trying to kill each other. 

Sansa’s been places and met people enough to know the Lannisters are not consistently villainous and her own family are not reliably safe. 

Unbeknownst to her Sansa (yet), Tyrion’s squire Podrick Payne is traveling around with a big warrior-lady carrying a Lannister-branded Valyrian steel sword. A gift from Jaime Lannister. Cersei’s twin brother, and the one man with the backbone to ask the drunken king to stop embarrassing himself. Unbeknownst to Sansa, Ser Jaime has just deserted his army because he’s helping Brienne and Podrick rescue Sansa out from under Cersei. 

They have this assignment because Catelyn stepped away from her animosity to the Lannisters for a moment long enough to give Ser Jaime a chance to do the right thing. That Jaime is rejecting the Lannister regime in favor of Stark-Tully interests has a lot to do with Brienne’s influence, while the likely success of their mission will probably have to do with Sansa’s conduct at the Red Keep. It’s Podrick Payne who’ll recognize Sansa with her hair dyed brown, and Podrick who has the best chance to convince Sansa that Lady Brienne is good and Ser Jaime is on their side. 

Winter is Coming. The Stark motto isn’t nihilistic; it is a call to action. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. It’s the spirit of mutual protection, care, and cooperation that keeps the pups alive in the darkest and meanest times. 

Sansa is gradually learning that “the pack” isn’t just those who share her family tree. The pack is made up of the ones who show up. When the wolves are tossed to the four winds, the pack may welcome the strength of lions. Unbeknownst to Sansa, the Hound showed up for Arya and may yet appear and join her pack. The real danger is the mockingbird. 

It was Sansa’s own family---her mother’s sister and foster brother---who created the conflict that drove the Starks into war with the Lannisters. Now it’s Lannister associates coming to her rescue. There may yet be a story in which the wolf and the lion work together and learn to trust each other. Sansa can help write that story. 

#asoiaf meta #sansa stark #westerosi culture #noble Houses #house stark #house lannister #littlefucker started the war #lysa arryn helped #brienne of tarth #jaime lannister #podrick payne #sandor clegane #tyrion lannister #arya stark #catelyn stark #cersei lannister #robert baratheon #joffrey baratheon #tommen baratheon #asoiaf themes #asoiaf speculation #theon greyjoy #the wolf and the lion