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First guest appearance! Transcript below the break

Hello and welcome back to The Rewatch Rewind, the podcast where I count down my top 40 most rewatched movies. My name is Jane, and in this episode I will be discussing number 34 on my list: 20th Century Fox and Argyle Enterprises’ 1965 musical The Sound of Music, directed by Robert Wise, written by Ernest Lehman with the partial use of ideas by Georg Hurdalek, adapted from the stage musical book by Howard Lindsay and Russel Crouse which was based on the autobiography of Maria von Trapp, and starring Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer.

This is the story of Maria (Julie Andrews), a postulant who is struggling to maintain the discipline required to become a nun, so she is sent to the home of widower Captain Georg von Trapp (Christopher Plummer) to be a governess to his seven children for the summer, and accidentally catches feelings. Also it’s Austria in the late 1930s and bad times are coming.

In previous episodes of this podcast, I’ve talked to you by myself, but in this discussion I will be joined by my dear friend Christina Ailor, whom I met online a few years ago due to our shared appreciation and support for independent filmmakers like Shipwrecked Comedy, the Tin Can Brothers, and Ashley Clements – all of whom have YouTube channels featuring brilliant projects that you should absolutely check out if you’re unfamiliar with their work. Christina and I also share a love for The Sound of Music, as you will be able to tell from this very long, detailed chat that we had about it. Hope you enjoy, here it is!

Jane

Hello!

Christina

Hi!

Jane

Thank you for joining me on my podcast.

Christina

Hi, thank you for having me.

Jane

I'm so excited to have you as my first guest.

Christina

I feel so honored.

Jane

Because the first time we met in person, we watched a movie together. And it was not this movie. But it did have Christopher Plummer in it. So…

Christina

That's true. Oh, my goodness. I didn't even think about that connection. Yeah.

Jane

But sadly I don't get to talk about Knives Out on this podcast because I've only seen it eight times. But Sound of Music. I have watched 15 times and we have watched it together.

Christina

It's true. Virtually.

Jane

Yes, so the first time I watched Knives Out was with you and the most recent time I watched Sound of Music was with you, so it's all. It's all connected.

Christina

Yay! Well, I just watched some of it this morning to refresh myself and I don't know how many times I've watched the Sound of Music, but it's definitely one of the most watched of my life, and the episode that you just released a couple days ago was Princess Bride, which is also like one of my top most watched movies. So I was like, wow, like this week. It's just in the Jane rewind rewatch. It's it's all about. What Christina watches all the time.

Jane

Yes, we have similar taste in movies. So do you remember the first time you ever saw Sound of Music?

Christina

I am not sure exactly when the first time I saw it, but I do have a memory of receiving the video cassettes for my birthday and I'm not sure it was either my 4th or 5th birthday. I know that for certain because we were living in a house that we only lived in for a couple of years. And I remember being so excited. I think that I had the audio cassette of the songs and I also had a picture book or something where it came with an audio cassette and it would like have a sound to turn the page and it kind of told an abbreviated story of the Sound of Music. So I was already familiar with, like the general plot and the songs. And then I got this two-VHS set and was just thrilled and looking back it's like hilarious to me that I was already, like, so fully formed at like 4 years old. And it was just like, yes. And you know, a few years ago, like, as I got into my late 20s, I was like, wow, like, do I really love Sound of Music because it's great or because of the nostalgia factor? And then when I started rewatching it again, I like, tried to have a more critical eye. And I just thought, you know what? I think this is a really great. I think I just had really great taste, starting from the age of four.

Jane

Yeah. That's fair. Yeah I feel like I got into it later than that in life like, I was aware of it. And I think it was another one of those movies where it was just like always on TV or it was on TV at certain times of year. So I know I watched like bits and pieces of it. And I remember we watched at least part of it in school in like third grade, and I have no idea why, but I have this memory of watching it in my third grade classroom.

Christina

Yeah, I think you know, like if you're trying to teach, like, Nazis are bad, it's a it's a great, like primer and it's rated G. Like there's not that many movies that talk about Nazis being bad, that's also rated G.

Jane

Yeah, yeah. No, that's true. Well, and. And I had a very deprived childhood because we didn't have a VCR until I was, like, 10.

Christina

What?! Whoa!

Jane

So I couldn't watch movies at home that much unless they were on TV, like we had cable and we had some, like, movie channels, so like.

Christina

Wow this puts this, the whole concept of this podcast and like, how much you rewatch movies into this whole new context for me, I'm just…

Jane

Yes.

Christina

Wow, this is a whole new perspective has opened up for me. I feel like you need to do an episode that's like just about your journey of like becoming a film buff.

Jane

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I probably should do a bonus episode explaining that, but bits and pieces will come out in the episodes. Uh, but yeah, so, I didn't ever have it on VHS. I'm pretty sure that I must have gotten it on DVD around 2004 because that was like when we got a DVD player for the living room. So then we started getting DVDs. So I think it was around 2004 and that year I watched it four times. And so that was when I was like really into it and it was also around the same time I got into Mary Poppins. So I was like, really having a Julie Andrews phase right then.

Christina

I mean. That's the best kind of phase to have

Jane

Yeah, for sure.

Christina

And Princess Diaries came out like, right around then too, didn't it?

Jane

Yeah. Yeah. I think Princess Diaries was 2001 and that was like… I like, was aware of who Julie Andrews was before then, but that was really what got me into Julie Andrews was Princess Diaries, which seems a little backwards.

Christina

Whatever gets you there, to the Julie Andrews obsession.

Jane

Yes, absolutely. So, yeah, so that was at that point because like, my freshman year of high school was 2004 to 2005, and that year I told people that Sound of Music was my all-time favorite movie and I watched it a lot in that era. But then again, it was kind of like I didn't watch it for a while and thought like, OK, maybe it's just nostalgia. But then rewatching it later, I was like, oh, this movie is great. And then I went to several sing alongs of it. I think I looked back, I'm pretty sure I've been to four Sound of Music sing alongs.

Christina

Wow, I have been to one sing along and it was, I went with my family. I don't know if you, like what your sing along experiences were, but I went with my family and there was varying levels of enthusiasm within my family about attending, but I was so excited and so my mom's dad was a marine and served in West Germany when she was a kid, so they actually lived in Berlin for part of her childhood. So we have like, in my family we have a lot of, like dirndls and lederhosen. I don't know. We just, like, have those in our family closet. And so I was, you know, dressed up in a dirndls. And then my brother was wearing this like Austrian looking hat. And during the there was like a costume contest at the beginning and he actually won because everyone else got up and they were like, I'm dressed as this child and he got up and was this little 10-year-old boy and he said he was dressed as Uncle Max.

Jane

Ugh, amazing.

Christina

And that got a huge laugh. And then people were like, oh, like you get the prize.

Jane

Yeah, I've never participated in the costume contest part of the Sing Alongs, but they they always have them at the beginning and it's fun to see like, what creative things people come up with cause a lot of times it's like people dressed as the characters. But then, like, they'll be like dressed as some of the favorite things from the song. Or like this one time there was a group of people that were dressed as hills that were alive and they were like labeled as hills from the neighborhood and stuff. So that was fun. The first time I went to one, it was because one of the pastors at my church at the time had mentioned it in a sermon that, like that was a thing that happened at this theater nearby. And I was like, what? I need to go to this. I did not know this existed. And so then I like messaged her and she, like, kind of it wasn't an official church event, but she sort of put together like various people from the church that she thought would be interested. And so we all went and saw it together. So nobody else from my family went. It was just me and a bunch of other people I knew from church. And that was really fun. And I like, distinctly remember at intermission being like, oh, my gosh, I love this movie so much. And one of the kids that was there was like, well, yeah, it's a great movie. And I was like like, Yep, Yep. It is. So then the next year was the 50th anniversary of Sound of Music.

Christina

OK.

Jane

And so I went again with, like, my family and friends, and that year was the year that Duane Chase, who played Kurt in the movie, actually came to the Sing along.

Christina

Oh wow.

Jane

Because he lives kind of nearby in this area now.

Christina

Oh, OK, cool.

Jane

So he came to that and that was really fun because, like, at the sing alongs, they give you, like stuff to do and say at certain points.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

It's like you're supposed to cheer whenever Julie Andrews comes on screen and Boo the Nazis and stuff like that. So then every time Kurt did anything, everybody was cheering for him. And it was really fun. And then afterwards I got a picture with him.

Christina

Nice.

Jane

But he seemed, it seemed like he was getting kind of tired of being there because he, he stopped acting after his childhood, so he's not really into like being in the spotlight, but it was fun that he came for that.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

I think the year after that they didn't have one because where they do the screening around here is like a stage theater and they were doing Sound of Music the stage show that year, so they didn't have a movie sing along. But then the following year I went again. And then I kind of stopped doing it cause I was like it gets to be a little repetitive if you go a lot, but it is really fun and it's it's just great to be in a whole big theater full of people who love the movie. But then I went again at a different place when I was visiting my siblings the year before last. So that was really fun too. Just being in a completely different part of the country and doing the same sort of thing. So I love those singalongs.

Christina

Awesome. Well, should we talk about why we love this movie so much?

Jane

Yes, we should. So do you have a favorite part? Do you have a favorite song?

Christina

Well, I oh, I don't know if I could choose a favorite. You know, I'm I'm more of the my favorite things theory of life. You just list out all the things you love, but then we would be here all day.

Jane

That's true.

Christina

But I did, I have my many notes here, and one thing that I just always get so excited about when the movie starts is it's probably one of my favorite openings of a movie of all time.

Jane

Me too.

Christina

I love you know the aerial shots. It's so beautiful. And then I love the sound of it and how it just starts with the wind blowing. And then they bring in the birds, and then they gradually layer in the orchestration of the hills are alive song and then, just like zooming in on Maria spinning around on the hill. Just every time I watch it, I A) am just like this is so beautiful and B) think gotta get myself on a Viking River cruise to actually like, go to there and like, I just want to go to Salzburg every time I watch. I'm like, should I? Should I become a hiker? Should I learn how to climb mountains so I can be there?

Jane

Oh, my gosh. That opening is so good. And I think it's really interesting because in the stage show, Maria sings a like little verse before the hills are alive, like there's a little “my day in the hills has come to an end I know,” and in the movie they don't sing that, but they just play that like, that's the instrumental like introduction. And I think that's really interesting. I don't know why they chose to do it that way, but I really like it because it's like kind of like more gradually building into the song and then just like having it the first lyrics be, “The hills are alive.”

Christina

So can we agree that Julie Andrews is like one of the greatest singers of all time?

Jane

Oh 100%.

Christina

So yeah, it's just like we're going to give you exactly what you want, like, right away, and just let her, like, belt out this line. Like she doesn't have to work up to it. And it's just, it's like starting on a climax. And it's so beautifully cinematic. And I think that there's, you know, there's so few movies that shoot on location to that extent, and especially so many Hollywood musicals were shot on soundstages. Completely and now, they're very rarely shot on location like that. And so it's really, just one of the most immersive movie musicals that I can think of. And I just love how it goes right into the opening credits is like all these shots of Salzburg as well. And it just really like puts you in this place, and… “time” – I’m doing air quotes for time.

Jane

I mean, it's a very ‘60s version of World War II.

Christina

And it's also so just before we talk more about the movie, just some more background about me and Sound of Music in general is I have never seen the stage version actually, and I knew that there were some changes and I have like looked up the differences. I think that I’m so obsessed with the movie, I don't know if I would really fully like seeing the stage version at this point? Because all of the changes that I've seen them make, I'm like, yeah, I agree with that. But I also have read the actual Maria von Trapp autobiography, and I think I read that when I was like in middle school or high school. And so her actual story with the von Trapp really took place in the 20s. And then they were married for, like, a decade. And then the Nazis showed up and tried to get him to work for them. So they, you know, they definitely took some artistic license. And I agree, like some of the hemlines in this movie I’m like that is not a 1930s hemline, that is a 1960s hemline. But you know, it's still beautiful. So yeah, we're going to let it go.

Jane

Yeah. So I've seen three different productions of the stage version, I think. But one of them, I don't know if it really counts, cause it was like a youth theater, like it wasn't a professional thing. But I saw that one first because my brother was the student stage manager. But then the person who was supposed to play the main Nazi dropped out. So my brother ended up playing the main Nazi character too. So I saw that one and then I saw it at the 5th Ave. which is the theater where I see the sing alongs. They did their own stage production of it and that was pretty good. There were a few things about it that I was like, oh, but the movie is so much better, but it was interesting to see. And then I saw there was like, a national tour of it a couple of years later. And that was amazing. The singing in that was so good. It was no Julie Andrews, but it was still really good. So I enjoyed the stage version and a lot of it is very similar to the movie, but certain things changed and it was interesting to see those changes. Obviously I prefer the movie, but I'm biased because I've seen it so many more times. But yeah, I enjoyed the stage show. But I think what you said about the location thing is so true cause so many movie musicals feel very, like contained in a soundstage. And this feels very open and like it is its own little world, but it's also like part of the real world. And I think that's really part of what makes it so powerful is like, yeah, it is its own, like, musical world. But it's also like real and yeah, it's not really the real story, but like, it feels like it's part of the world.

Christina

Yeah, and I also think like the historical beats that they're hitting are real, like the way that the play and the movie ends is not actually how they escaped Austria, in part because there's not a border right there. But I do think, like what it's trying to tell us about, like that political moment there is some, some truth there and it's valuable I think. Comparing it to other movie musicals, when I was watching it this morning, one that came to mind was the new West Side Story.

Jane

Oh yeah.

Christina

I haven't seen the old West Side Story in a little while. I know that that one also starts with an aerial shot and they were actually worried about the Sound of Music being seen as copycatting that.

Jane

Oh really?

Christina

Yeah, so it shared some production team and then the, I think it was the screenwriter, like, insisted on the aerial shot of the Alps. And they're like, uh, like people just saw that with West Side Story, so they're probably not gonna like that. But then according to Wikipedia, they couldn't think of anything better.

Jane

Oh, that's so funny because, yeah, I guess they, they are similar, but I never thought of them as being similar before because it's such a different setting that they're showing you.

Christina

It's such a different setting and also like you know, it's written by such a different team. You know it's they're both from that era I guess, but the new- what I was going to say is like the new West Side Story is really a beautiful movie and they put so much work into the details of taking us back to that New York, but at the same time it doesn't have that expansiveness that they were able to have by just like shooting on location in Salzburg because the New York of West Side Story, you know, no longer exists. It kind of like never existed. They just made it up for that musical but like, you know, the New York of the 1950s, like, truly no longer exist. So they really had to create sound stages and sets for that. And despite like the enormous amount of detail and scale that Steven Spielberg was trying to put into it, you just can't match it with like an actual mountain.

Jane

Yeah, that's so true. Also I have to, I have to mention because Julie Andrews mentions it a lot, that that spin that she does that's captured by the helicopter shot. Every single take of it the like downdraft from the helicopter, it would completely knock her over right after they shot, so she would spin around and then she would fall over and they kept doing it. And she so at one point she was like, trying to gesture to the people, like, do a wider turn so you don't knock me over. And they just like waved, they're like,” oh, hi, yeah, we're doing this!” So she fell over on that hill a lot.

Christina

Oh no! Yeah, you can definitely, if you're like, watching very closely to it, you can see her do the spin and then then they immediately cut to

Jane

Yeah, to a close up of her, yeah.

Christina

Yeah, that's so funny. Also, apparently the stream that she crosses is like plastic.

Jane

Oh yeah, and at one point, like a farmer in the area destroyed it because they were mad about, like, people filming there.

Christina

That's fair. I can't, I can't blame him. It's like stop putting plastic streams on this natural beauty. That's it's so funny to me that I understand why they when she like, walks through the Birch trees. I mean that is like so perfect. I was like, I bet they brought those Birch trees in and they did. But with the stream, when I found out that was fake, I was like, you couldn't find a real stream? It seems like they would be all over the place.

Jane

Yeah, I don't know. But moving on from the opening scene, so the next song is how do you solve a problem like Maria? And I just like, I've always loved that song. I think it's very fun, but I remember as a kid I definitely misunderstood what it was about. And I thought that they were asking, How do you solve a problem the way Maria solves problems?

Christina

Oh my gosh, that is so funny.

Jane

Like I didn't realize they were calling her a problem. I thought like, oh, she's such a good problem solver. How do you how do you emulate that, and then later realized what it was actually about? And I was like, oh, OK, that's very different song.

Christina

OK, I actually have half a page of notes just about this song.

Jane

Oh wow. OK.

Christina

And I like knew what it was about the whole time, I'm pretty sure. And I really identify with this song and love it. And like in the same way that you know, on this podcast, you're often talking about, here's my aroace perspective on things and and like looking back on watching these movies, you're realizing maybe why you connected with certain elements. So I definitely do that now that I realize that I'm neurodivergent and had undiagnosed ADHD as a child. And I'm like, oh, like so many things make sense. And this song I am like, oh, like, this is why I loved this song so much because I as a kid was so often criticized for not doing things the way that other people did them, and I was always late and I was always daydreaming and I was just asked by a lot of authority figures in my life. They, you know, they were always like, you're so sweet, and you're so smart. Why can't you just, you know, do things the way that other kids do them? And I think that I found this song very validating, first of all, to see I wasn't the only person in the world to be criticized for that and then to have that person end up being the hero of this story and the central focus of this story, I think, meant a lot to me. And it's, it's part of why I think I always identified with Maria. But I also love that this song is in part people complaining about her, but in part people defending her.

Jane

Yeah.

Christina

Bringing up over and over again all these reasons that they love her and that they find these things that are, you know, weird about her, also to be endearing. And it really holds a special place in my heart because of that.

Jane

Oh, wow. That's great. That makes a lot of sense. The reason I love this song is not anything near as personal as that. I just, I've always loved songs that have a lot of fun lyrics and I just love that there's all these really silly words in it and stuff, and so I've always loved singing along to it because of that. And also it's very fun that Marni Nixon is one of the nuns in that song because she was frequently the singing voice of actors who couldn't sing in movies, and I talked about in the Mary Poppins episode that Julie Andrews was not cast in My Fair Lady because she hadn't done a movie before, and Audrey Hepburn was, even though Audrey Hepburn did not have the singing voice for that character, and so her singing was dubbed by Marni Nixon, who makes an appearance in the Sound of Music, which is kind of funny, that connection there because she didn't often her face was not often in movies, and she was usually uncredited as the singing voice cause the studios wanted to maintain the facade of like, look our stars are such good singers!

Christina

Oh studios. Well, I'm glad that she got to have her due in this one.

Jane

So she's sister Sophia. She’s just in that one scene, I think.

Christina

Yeah, but they all have, like such individual personalities and make such a strong impression, all those nuns.

Jane

Yeah, definitely. And that's also true of the children, which I think is great like that they have seven children and you would think they would kind of blend together, but they really are all distinct. Even the ones that don't get to do very much, like I think Louisa is probably the least developed of the children.

Christina

Yeah, and it's funny, apparently, that Louisa, like the second oldest daughter, is like the one that the historical Maria von Trapp was brought to be her tutor. And was not going to be like a governess for all seven of them. So, you know, they supposedly like probably had the strongest relationship at the beginning of the story historically.

Jane

But they all had different names in real life too, right?

Christina

Yeah, actually that the real life second sister was named Maria, which was part of why they changed all of the names of the kids.

Jane

That would have been confusing.

Christina

Yeah, they're just like, no, this is not necessary. Yeah so I love how do you solve a problem like Maria? And I also love that they bring it back as their wedding song?

Jane

It's just like, yes, of course I will walk down the aisle to song about how I'm a problem.

Christina

I mean, it's crazy cause like if they just played the theme then it would be just like a fun, you know, musical reprise. But they actually have the nuns sing the words!

Jane

Well, and and they don't go in the church, which I'm like, are nuns, not allowed to go to weddings. Is this a rule?

Christina

It seems like it is a rule it because, you know, they're brides of Christ? I don't, I mean, I'm not Catholic, so I, I can't weigh in on this, but I think that it has something to do with like the barrier, and also they were always upset with Maria for just randomly leaving the Abbey and they had all of these rules about that, so maybe they're just like we need special permission to go through these gates.

Jane

Yeah, I don't know. That's always been weird to me, that they're just like standing outside singing the Maria Song while she's getting married. It's like.

Christina

We’re just like, never forget that we thought you were weird.

Jane

And she’s like, This is why I left you guys.

Christina

Yeah, she's just like you know what? It makes me even more glad that I'm committing to this family. OK, so jumping ahead slightly. Maria is with the von Trapp family. OK, so she starts off at the convent. Then let me just go through the whole plot. She starts out at the convent. They're like, you're weird. Please go be a governess for “a while.” Again air quotes because I think that Mother Superior was like, I don't think it's going to work out here, and was like, looking for a long term way to get her out.

Jane

Bye.

Christina

And then she leaves, and then she is like having all these conflicted feelings about Captain von Trapp so then she goes back to the convent. She has always planned to take her vows as a nun and that has always been her dream. And it's always been her dream to serve God and so she's just feeling very conflicted about it. And then when she goes to Mother Superior, which I believe is the scene where Mother Superior sings climb every mountain to her.

Jane

Yes.

Christina

But part of their conversation is Mother Superior basically saying, we serve God here by taking our vows, but that's not the only way to serve God and to have faith, and if you love this man and want to be a mother to these children, that is another way to serve God and you can take your faith out into the community. And I was someone who was raised as Jane, as you know, I was raised in the Christian faith and I think that's another reason I always really connected with Maria was like that longing to connect with God and serve God. But I think another reason I really love this movie is because that is one of the messages is that you can bring whatever your light is, whatever your you know, spark is, there's a lot of ways that you can bring that to the world and be a good in the world and you don't necessarily have to be following like a really strict lifestyle like being a nun.

Jane

Yeah, well, and I think it's sort of backwards to me because they're saying like it's OK to get married and have a romantic relationship. But I think like, part of the way I interpreted it is that there's no correct path.

Christina

Yes, exactly.

Jane

There's no one path for every person like you have to do what feels right for you. And so for Maria, it was very clearly marrying Captain von Trapp. But like, if people are saying the correct path is to get married and have a family like that doesn't mean that everybody has to do that.

Christina

Yeah, that's not going to be for everyone.

Jane

Yeah, so I think that it's even encouraging in that it is a romantic story, it's encouraging for people who don't want that kind of relationship too, to be like, well, but that was right for her. They're not saying everybody has to do that.

Christina

And I don't actually know how you say out loud the the word for ama-normativity?

Jane

Amatonormativity? That's how I say it. I don't actually know if that's how you pronounce it.

Christina

As you have brought up before this idea that is pushed on us by culture, that like there is one way like the normative part of it and then the amatonormative part of it is relationships and romantic relationships, like you have to be in one to be living the right life and, yeah, I definitely think that this movie and this musical is trying to say there is no right way and you can't say being a nun, you know isn't the right way, but then being in a relationship is. No, like, that was what was right for her and what was right for Uncle Max was being a musical group producer and leaching off of his rich friends, and I do think that it ties in to the anti-Nazi themes of the movie because I at least associate a lot of that movement, and like fascism in general with the idea of like there is only one right way.

Jane

Oh yeah, that's a good point.

Christina

And we're going to force people to be this one right way. And the heroes of this movie are all saying that's not how people are. People are going to be different and they need connection and they need to have faith in each other. So yeah, I think those are all…hopefully I've teased out these, these themes that I'm trying to.

Jane

Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. That, like the movie, presents the only wrong way to live is if you're denying the way you actually feel.

Christina

Right. I also think I was mostly thinking of this topic in comparison to other Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals. I wasn't really thinking about like other musicals or movies in general. But I really think that, despite how much I love other songs from Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, I don't love any of them to the extent that I love this one, and I think that part of it is that this movie is about two people who, their arc is to recognize what their values are and then very purposefully try to shape their lives around their values. And that's really like the arc of Maria and the captain. And I don't think that that's necessarily the arc of most of the Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, and some of them actually, although they're like, seen as the pinnacle of book musicals, are a little bit messy thematically. Whereas this one Maria is figuring out, OK, I thought that serving God was my only value, but actually family and being in touch with my creative spirit are also very important values for me. And once she's able to choose those things, that's how she ends up being part of the von Trapp family, and then, you know, moving with them to Americ. And the same with Captain von Trapp. Like he's kind of in this place in his life at the beginning of the movie where he's just bogged down in grief. But then during the course of the movie, in addition to him realizing, oh I want my life centered around my children, I again want to connect with like that creativity and the music, and then also for him a big part of it is... I guess, like I'm trying to think of the right word, but like being an Austrian and like having like principles of not giving in to what the Nazis want him to do. He really decides for himself that he has these strong values and then they decide, oh, we can shape our lives around these together. And that's really the arc, like there are two emotional arcs like converging.

Jane

Yeah.

Christina

I'm doing a hand motion that the podcast listeners will obviously really appreciate where I’m moving my hands together.

Jane

Just just imagine the hand motion. Yeah, no, I think that that makes a lot of sense and it's less, I mean, obviously there's romance involved with that, and it's not just like they're getting together because it feels inevitable, but like, I think that that's definitely a big part of it is realizing like that they have similar values and want to live their lives together, and I think that there's, there's a perception of the way the plot is that like the bareness is the villain that's trying to keep them apart and stuff. But like, if you actually watch it, I have very strong feelings. The Baroness did nothing wrong, OK? She was just trying to keep her man. But she realized that they weren't actually meant for each other, and they had different values, and…

Christina

Yeah, she's pretty chill. Although she does bring up sending the kids to boarding school.

Jane

Right. But also like, the kids were probably going to boarding school anyway to be honest. Like we just see them during summer break like we don't know what their normal school is like.

Christina

That's true.

Jane

And also, apparently the children were- this is a thing that bothers me about the movie. They talk about how awful the children are and how they always like terrorized their their previous governesses and stuff but when we see them, they are like the sweetest, most well behaved children.

Christina

We put a frog in Mario's pocket and a pine cone on her chair. Are you just going to ignore these indiscretions, Jane?

Jane

It just doesn't seem like they actually did that though. Like, I mean, I know they supposedly did, but I just can't imagine those children actually doing that. They just they seem too nice.

Christina

Well, I don't know Brigitta is…

Jane

Oh yeah, she's a little mischievous.

Christina

…pretty judgy. I think that if you like a movie too much, you can start thinking a little bit too hard about it. And there's definitely some, like, timeline things because I was like, OK, so Gretl’s five, so their mother can't have passed away more than five years ago, and they've had 12 governesses in five years. So like, they're really going through these governesses fast. And also so Liesel was like 11 when all this started. So I feel like maybe at first, she was like she and Friedrich, like, started out by, like, playing tricks but like, surely they would have aged out of that a little bit by now. And now it's more like Kurt and Bergita who are getting up to these antics. But Gretel and Marta, they've, they've never done anything wrong. Those two sweet angels.

Jane

Oh, yeah, that's fair. And it's also very clear that the children just want attention, and Maria provides them more productive attention. So then they

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

They stop being such troublemakers because they're excited about the singing part.

Christina

And I think in part we could say, oh, you know, it's a, it's a movie and they didn't have the screen time to show us. I mean, they could have, at this…once you hit 3 hours, why not just add in a couple more scenes? But you know, because they're kind of compressing the timeline they wanted to show them just liking Maria immediately. But, you know, maybe also if you're looking at it from, if you're trying to justify it from the perspective of a fan, maybe the idea is that other governesses have come in and like gone along with their dad with the whistling stuff. And they've just been like, yes, we are going to be very regimented. And so from the very first impression, they kind of lumped all of these governesses in together as you're just part of this system that our dad has created to put a cage around his grief and not deal with his feelings and also not deal with us as human beings. And then Maria comes in and just says, No, I'm not going to do that. So maybe even just that first impression they were like, ugh, like we'll just do a frog and then and then by that way, they're singing my favorite things with her, so

Jane

Yeah, well, that's good. And also she comforts them during the thunderstorm. So I think that really, that really broke the ice. And I also I have to share my favorite story about that scene, because apparently that was pretty early on in the shoot. And Julie Andrews taught the kids supercalifragilisticexpialidocious because Mary Poppins hadn't come out yet when they were filming it, to sort of like, break the ice with them. And so they felt really at ease with her in real life, as well as the characters starting to feel at ease with her. So I think that's very cute.

Christina

That's lovely. Yeah, that's so cute. I love, there's a couple little scenes that it's just Liesl and Maria talking, and they really did find a good dynamic there of like, this older girl being like, I need more of a friend than, or like a mentor and less of a governess or a mother really. And I I love their relationship.

Jane

Yeah I always felt sad because when she, when Liesl sneaks in her window after singing in the gazebo in the rain and Maria says “OK, put your dress in the bathtub and then we'll have a talk.” But then they never get to have the talk because the kids come in and it's the thunderstorm. And I'm like, I want to see that scene!

Christina

I think that later they did have a talk. I hope Liesl.. alright, well, like, since we've brought up the topic of Liesl, I have several things to say. First of all, 16 going on 17 such a catchy song

Jane

It really is.

Christina

and it's, it's in my head all the time and it's a great song But it's also…full of red flags.

Jane

Oh yeah, for sure. I don't remember if it was you. Somebody when we were watching it virtually commented that like Rolf, is taking this song very seriously. And Liesl kind of sees it as like flirtatious, like, role play kind of thing. And I think that's exactly what it is. She doesn't realize how serious he is about it because she's into the like little fun, flirty aspect of it. But if you listen to what he's actually saying it's like, Oh dear.

Christina

Like, “I am a men's rights activist and a Nazi.” And then she's just like, “oh, you!” Um, yeah, but having been a 16 year old girl who liked guys, I really enjoy that song still because now I can see, like, how much Rolf sucks. But I also can see how many of the guys that I liked when I was around that age sucked. And like how bad I was at seeing red flags, and you know, nothing really ever escalated to the extent that it does for Liesl’s family. But I do have like a lot of sympathy for her there. And ugh, man, men's rights activist. It just makes you think like they will find any reason to be upset. They can have someone as gorgeous and as fun as Liesl trying to flirt with them, and they're just like, “But what if we were Nazis?”

Jane

And like your dad should be a Nazi. Like, that's what we should be talking about right now.

Christina

Yeah, he basically says that in that scene. He's just like, have you ever, like, told your dad to be a Nazi? And, you know, she doesn't really know what's going on. It is interesting. When I was rewatching this again, I was like, it's interesting how they're able to convey that Nazis are so bad, but they don't actually ever get into, like, why they are bad. They're really relying on the audience to have some of like that historical and cultural context. Like they don't even make it clear that there is going to be a war, really? I mean, they kind of they they do cause they're like we're we need Captain von Trapp to come serve in our military. But they just really like gloss over, like the horrors that are to come and that they're escaping from. They're just like we need to escape.

Jane

Yeah, it. And it is interesting because they do say the thing about like “The Anschluss happened peacefully” or whatever. But like, they don't explain what that means.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

They're just like, OK, cool. And I mean, there is that tension. I think it's good that they have Max there as a character cause I feel like he sort of voices what most people were probably feeling at the time of like, this is just going to happen, we have to accept it. And Georg being a little bit more unusual with his like, “No, this is horrible. We don't want this!”

Christina

Right.

Jane

But again, they don't really explain exactly what's going on, and I think that probably at the time, well and even like because the stage musical was from 1959 and this is 1965. So people like knew. Like the war had only been like 20 years earlier, like people knew what happened. But I think it's interesting that like this is such a timeless classic and like it's still very much in the pop culture conversation. Like people know Sound of Music. But like, we're much farther removed from the events now, and I do think it's interesting that like a lot of people consider the Baroness the villain of the film and like, are more focused on the love triangle thing. It's like, the Nazis are right there!

Christina

Yeah, Nazis are definitely the villains of the film. I agree with you that the Baroness does nothing wrong.

Jane

She steps away gracefully.

Christina

Yes, but I will say that we see in that scene when Max is like, “what's gonna happen is gonna happen, and it's not my fault that I'm not a political person and I can't help it that other people are,” and then Georg says, “Yes, you can!” And that's really the first time that we're seeing Captain von Trapp recognizing, I have these, like, strong values that I want to shape my life around. And the Baroness is just kind of like, “Everyone, like, chill out.”

Jane

Yeah.

Christina

She is not really siding with Captain von Trapp. And saying, “Yes Georg, like I agree with you. Nazis are so bad!”

Jane

Which Maria does. Yeah, because there's definitely that scene when Max says, “You need to talk some sense into him. He has to cooperate with these people,” and she says, “I can't ask him to be less than he is.” And it's just like, she gets it. The Baroness does not. So, yeah, I agree that the Baroness and the captain do not belong together.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

But I also don't think that she's like, the most evil character in the story, but yeah, she is again kind of like the typical Austrian or German of like, I'm not a Nazi, but I don't want to stand up to them.

Christina

I would say that the most evil actually is the Butler. He turns them in and it's like…

Jane

It's very subtle, though they like, don't explicitly say that, but then you just see him looking ominously out the window when the Nazis show up.

Christina

Yeah, but it is, gosh, it's so interesting. I know that most or probably most of your audience is not going to be familiar with the more recent musical, Spies Are Forever. I know you are, Jane.

Jane

Well, actually most of my audience is probably my friends who are familiar with it, but yeah.

Christina

That's true, but just in case, there's anyone who's not familiar. It's a musical that you can see on YouTube in full, and it takes place in, like, the 60s. And it's like, sort of a James Bond theme spies thing. And Nazis kind of try to make like a comeback in that, which I guess they do in James Bond as well all the time. They recently did a concert version of that, that musical and the creators were talking about when they wrote it in 2015, they just didn't realize that Nazis actually would make a comeback in 2016, and they would be part of our national conversation so much. Yeah, like during the years of 2016 to 2017, I think a lot of people realized that just random people in their lives actually agreed with very conservative and fascist viewpoints. That because we just didn't talk about our personal politics as much, we didn't realize that about each other. And so that moment of like realizing that your Butler has been a Nazi sympathizer this whole time actually, like, isn't that unrealistic of a moment.

Jane

Yeah ,going back to Max too, like, Georg even says to him like, “Sometimes I don't believe I know you” or something like that, when he he expresses like we should just get along with people is like, yeah, I think that that happened to a lot of people in the sort of 2016 era of like, assuming that everyone agrees with you that certain things are bad and then realizing like, oh, you don't think this is that big of a deal.

Christina

Right. Yeah.

Jane

OK, didn't didn't see that coming. Like Georg always, like he knows what kind of person Max is, that he's like, just trying to make, make a buck as quickly as he can, and like exploiting singers to get money from them and stuff like that. But I think he didn't realize what that would translate to. And I think that Max has a nice arc in that at the end, he helps them escape, even though he knows that's losing him money.

Christina

Yeah, the greatest sacrifice anyone could make: Max giving up the chance to win money.

Jane

Yeah, exactly. And that that escape is so good. I love the way they do it. It's amazing.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

The way that they sing So Long, Farewell, like a reprise of So Long Farewell and just kind of sneak away. And nobody thinks anything of it. And then there's the lady who bows like 15 times.

Christina

Yes, the bowing lady!

Jane

I love her.

Christina

Yeah, they just keep bowing at each other!

Jane

I know this doesn't actually make sense, but I like to think that she was somehow in on it, and she was trying to do her part to help them escape by delaying their announcement.

Christina

Oh man, she's so great. I also love, at the end when they're like, hiding in the cemetery, and then they leave in the caretakers car and the Nazis’ cars won't start. And then the nuns are like, “Mother Superior….”

Jane

“I have sinned!”

Christina

“I have sinned!” and then they show that they've stolen the parts. What a great moment! Like that is just…

Jane

Yeah, and that's like that's like basically how the movie ends, cause it cuts from that to them walking across the mountains and…

Christina

And just like hearing the song Climb Every Mountain playing over that. Yeah, but like, what a great, like the nuns get the last laugh in the end and I love that for them.

Jane

Yeah, I think, I mean, what you were saying earlier about, like other Rodgers and Hammerstein shows, I'm not actually like that familiar with most of their other shows. Like I've seen most of them, like at least once. And then I guess the one I'm most familiar with is their version of Cinderella, and those songs were actually written for Julie Andrews, to make everything come full circle. But like I just a lot of their other shows, I have like major issues with a lot of the the aspects of them like they're kind of racist, they're kind of misogynistic. They like, have a lot of problematic elements and there's like a little bit of that in Sound of Music. I do think like, I mean, I love that Maria and Liesl have a conversation, but I think that that 16 going on 17 Reprise has a lot of, like problematic moments in there like that. Like “lo and behold, you're someone's wife and you belong to him” is a little bit like, ergh…

Christina

That's very strong written by a man vibes.

Jane

Yeah, exactly. It's like, we got to remind you that it's written by a man, but I feel like it has less of that than their other shows.

Christina

Oh yeah, I feel like most of their other shows, it's like maybe the ending is supposed to be, like kind of happy, but also there was definitely at least one tragic death that we're supposed to just ignore.

Jane

And also just like that, the the romantic leads actually don't have a healthy relationship and you're just kind of like I, I don't actually want them to be together? And so I think that the fact that this one is like they do have a healthy relationship, they clearly do belong together and also like it's more about getting away from the Nazis and standing up for what you believe in than promoting toxic, dysfunctional relationships that I think is part of why this one has become like the one that everyone talks about, and it was their last collaboration because I think Hammerstein died shortly after.

Christina

OK. I didn't realize it was their last one.

Jane

The musical premiered in 59 and Hammerstein died in 60. And so there's a couple of songs that were added for the movie that were just written by Rodgers without Hammerstein because he had died already.

Christina

Oh wow.

Jane

So like I Have Confidence and Something Good, I think.

Christina

And I love those songs. Well especially I Have Confidence, like that is such a great song.

Jane

Yeah, yeah, but some of the lyrics are a little weird, and it's like, maybe they could have used Hammerstein to help with that?

Christina

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I yeah, that's true.

Jane

But it does. It is very a very powerful song and I love that scene a lot.

Christina

Yeah, I guess Something Good is…I'm glad that they put it in there, but, it is like, what? Like it is like, you really have to listen to the lyrics to understand what they're talking about sometimes. Like it's very convoluted logic where they're just like, “I was a bad kid. But I must have done something good to be with you,” and it's like what like?

Jane

Yeah, I don't, and I don't really understand like it does, it seems kind of out of place. I feel like they could have made it better by like, making it be like, “I've never felt at home before. Like, I've always felt like I didn't fit in and, and you make me feel like that.” Like that would be a better message to have in that song instead of just being like, “I'm evil. But I must have done something good to deserve you.”

Christina

So I gotta ask as a as an aroace person, do you just like really avoid glass gazebos in general? Because it's seems like…

Jane

[laughter]

Christina

Based on the Sound of Music, like they're only allowed to be used for romantic moments.

Jane

Romantic songs. Yeah, every time I see one I'm like, “Ahhh! Run awaaay!” Umm, no, I hadn't ever really thought about that before. I do remember thinking that the Something Good scene was very boring and and then I also think just like, finding out that a lot of people love this movie because like they find Christopher Plummer really attractive, was very strange to me. Or like they watch it because of the love story. Because I was always like, yeah, it's there, it's it's fine, whatever but like, I was watching it for like the kids becoming appreciated and people figuring out who they are and stuff and to tell people like, “Oh yeah, Sound of Music is like my favorite movie,” and people would be like, “Oh, yeah, Christopher Plummer!” And I'm like, “He's the dad… Like, what are you talking about?”

Christina

OK, so I'm going to bring my allo perspective here. As someone who finds people attractive, yeah, like Christopher Plummer is so great in this. Also, apparently, like he helped build out the character somewhat from the stage musical version. And a lot of what makes the character in the movie so great came from Christopher Plummer's input so I think like, I just want to give him, like more credit than just like, wow, what a great performance because he he brought so much to it. But I was thinking about it today and I think that one reason people are so drawn to this love story is the way that it's portrayed in the movie, and not not necessarily in the musical or other places, is he basically made Captain von Trapp like a dad version of Mr. Darcy.

Jane

Yeah, I can see that.

Christina

Maria shows up. Really Rich guy is all, like aloof and he's like, “you're all weird and stuff,” and they get into all of these big arguments at the beginning. And you know. She's playing kind of an Elizabeth Bennet, like “I am witty and I'm going to stand up for myself. As opposed to like everyone else in your life who's going to be a yes person, I'm going to speak my mind to you.” And then they, you know, realize “oh, like, I actually really like you.” I think that it is that, like it's not that opposites attract, but it is that being willing to admit that your first impression of this person was not correct and that you actually do have a lot in common, but also that like that is so attractive: the man who starts out aloof, and then his barriers melt and he has a face like Christopher Plummer.

Jane

And he manages to propose to you without insulting your family, so even better than Mr. Darcy.

Christina

Yeah, well, he's improved on the formula. He also like, doesn't, you know, do your sister great harm by separating her from her true love.

Jane

Yeah, that's true too. So even better is if if you want someone better than Mr. Darcy: Captain Georg von Trapp.

Christina

Yeah, but I like, apparently the the real Captain von Trapp, he was not, like, emotionally withholding from his kids at all. And I think that they, like played up that piece for the musical, but then also like the humor that he has and like a lot of his really funny lines are when he's talking to Max actually, like their whole friendship. It’s just like so cunning, but apparently a lot of that originated with Christopher Plummer.

Jane

That makes sense because he, like he does that so well, and I love his little, like he's got a little twinkle in his eye. And when he does his little like teasing thing. Especially the scene when the kids go to say goodbye to Maria and then they come back and they're telling him that they were bery picking and all of that and he's just like letting them dig themselves into a hole is so great. And he does that so well. And then he, like, goes back into the house. You see him do his little chuckle like, “Oh, my kids are so silly.” But oh, that he lets them say that it's blueberries and then he's like, “Oh, it's the wrong season for blueberries,” and so then Friedrich goes, “Well, they were strawberries. It's been so cold lately, they turned blue!” is like one of my favorite moments. And then he just looks, Frederick looks so disappointed in himself. It’s so great! Oh man, there's so many just fun moments like that that I think are part of why I keep rewatching it because it is, it is almost 3 hours long, so I think I would watch it more if it was shorter, but I also like, I don't feel like it drags. I feel like it's engaging the whole time.

Christina

Yeah. I agree with you that probably the slowest part is Something Good.

Jane

Yeah.

Christina

Like I kind of feel like they they have to have it in there. Like, you know, it's like to move from not married to married, they have to have something there. But it is such a slow song and when I was a kid I definitely fast forwarded through it because I was just like, adults having feelings for each other? Whatever. Like this isn’t interesting. And, you know, compared to that amazing dance scene in that same setting with 16 going on 17 and then you just like see them standing in shadow being like, “I think I love you!” You're just like, oh, man, this is ugh…all right, I'm going to get up and like, get a glass of water or something.

Jane

Well, and it just it almost like undermines the message of like, yes, they have the same values and they're belonging together. It's like, “oh, wow, I don't deserve you because I was horrible.” And it's weird to like, have that be the song that they sing there, and I don't know, in the stage version, I don't know if they had a different song there or if they just…

Christina

They do. I looked it up and it's called An Ordinary Couple. I haven't actually listened to it.

Jane

I'm kind of thinking that they might have cut that out of more like modern productions.

Christina

Yeah, I think maybe they just like replaced it with Something Good in more recent stagings.

Jane

Yeah, I I'm trying to think. I don't remember how it was when I saw it on stage.

Christina

But yeah, I feel like now that I know that Hammerstein wasn't involved with that song, I'm like, you could even take another pass. Like you could even try for a future staging of the musical, like try something else there. Something that actually like talks about like in this moment, why they are into each other. At least we have some perspective on Maria, like being criticized when she was a child and a young adult. And then, like, feeling like she, you know, kind of was like, struggling to find her place in the world but that is not at all like anything that we've ever heard about Captain von Trapp, and so the fact that that's what they're singing about, it's they were clearly just like, “We need a song about people being in love with each other.” And then Rodgers was like, “What about this?”

Jane

Yeah, let's just, throw this in. Yeah, but it just it seems weirdly out of character for both of them to be singing about like, “I'm so awful and I don't deserve you,” because they they're more like confident and more self-assured than that.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

That I think that it's, it's weird. I guess they're being vulnerable with each other and that's what we're supposed to take out of that.

Christina

I think that what Captain von Trapp and Maria need is a song where he's saying, like, “I was trying to stop myself from feeling things, but like, I feel comfortable feeling things when I'm around you.” And then Maria being like, “I never felt like I fit in, but I feel like I fit in when I'm around you.”

Jane

Yeah, exactly. And that would that would make more sense, but…OK, we fixed it. We fixed Sound of Music, guys.

Christina

I mean, we we figured out how to fix it. I don’t know that…we didn't actually write the song.

Jane

That's true. Yeah, OK.

Christina

We're getting there. We're getting there.

Jane

Don't want to get too critical of the movie though. But yeah, that's, I think that the the Something Good part and the 16 going on 17 reprise are like the two parts that really bothered me.

Christina

Yeah, it is one of those musicals that I feel like some musicals fall victim to: Act One, it's like there's so many great song. And then in Act Two they get to a point where they're like, “oh, like, we have so much plot to do before we can get to the end, and so there's not going to be as many songs, or if there are songs, they're going to kind of just be, like, shoehorned in because we've really got to do all this plot right now.” And there's like, so much that happens. You know, they get married and then they have to, like, get to the point where they're in the festival and escaping and they're like, “alright, I guess like we better have Maria and Liesl sing a little song here in the middle just so we have a song.” But it's not like an inspired one. I also, honestly, could cut the goatherd song.

Jane

Oh, I love that song. I mean, it has nothing to do with anything and it could easily be cut. But I just love it so much.

Christina

I mean, I think it does serve a narrative purpose in that it's showing like the way that the von Trapp household has now been transformed and like you know, everyone's having a good time together again and it's all thanks to Maria. But the song is longer than it needs to be, because first they tell the story about the goat herder and then they're like we're going to tell the same story, but just about goats?

Jane

Yeah, I think it's really funny that like they have to turn them into goats before they make the thing about “soon the duet will become a trio” like it's OK that there's a baby goat. If we talk about baby humans, that's going too far. Like we can't imply sex in this show.

Christina

OK, maybe I I never understood that, but I still maintain there's too much of that song.

Jane

Oh, for sure. Yeah, I agree. But I also love it and I think it's really fun seeing the like the kids trying to do the puppet show and like all of that, I I think it's very fun. It is completely unnecessary and way too long. I'm trying to think like what my f- I don't know what my favorite song is, I love so many of the songs, but I do absolutely love the Do Re Mi scene. Even though that goes on way too long. Like it's a very, very long sequence.

Christina

No because they’re going all around Salzburg. No, I I wouldn't cut one second of that song.

Jane

It's so fun. It's so good.

Christina

Do Re Mi and they, they do like all the different versions and stuff. And oh man, I love it. I wish it was that easy to learn how to sing in harmony.

Jane

Yes! Yes, I also love that they're like, “We don't know any songs” and then they're just immediately singing every song.

Christina

Yeah and then when their dad shows back up and they're singing, The Hills are Alive, and then he comes in and starts singing it like I'm not bothered by the fact that he just knows the words because it's a musical. But what is amazing to me is that they're like, oh, like, not only did our governess teach us this song, but we just automatically know how to, like, go into choral, like vocal backing parts for our dad.

Jane

Well, it's it's unclear how much time has passed because clearly the do-re-mi sequence takes place over multiple days because they changed their clothes. I don't know where they got those clothes because she had to make them clothes out of curtains because they only had their like, really like fancy clothes.

Christina

So, OK, so here's my theory. So they have their like uniform clothes, and then she makes them the play clothes. And when they're like, sitting around on the grass and doing more physical stuff, they're wearing the play clothes. And like when they're on the lake, they're wearing the play clothes. But then when they're touring Salzburg and they're like walking through the gardens and in a carriage, that's when we see them in these other casual clothes, and I feel like maybe those were clothes that they did have that were like for some other purpose. Like you wouldn't want to get them dirty so they're not considered play clothes, but maybe they did have more than like 2 outfits to wear.

Jane

OK, OK. That's fair.

Christina

That's my headcanon. I have put a lot of thought into the costuming in this movie, so I do have headcanon about every outfit that people wear.

Jane

OK, that's fair. Because I was thinking like, well, maybe she like takes everybody else's curtains in the area and makes just makes a lot of clothes out of all the other curtains.

Christina

I mean, maybe. The other thing that I noticed when I was rewatching that sequence is they each have like three outfits and they wear them in different combinations at different times, so it is kind of like, like they have the play clothes and then it seems like they each kind of have two non play clothes, non uniform outfits. And there's like, different scenes where, like Maria is wearing her striped dress in one scene. And I don't know. I'm just saying that it seems like it's taking place over like maybe a couple weeks actually, and they just have these three outfits that they're differently cycling through. What I'm trying to say is the costuming department did a great job of telling me the story of like, over time them going out on all these different adventures and it not just happening over a couple of days while their dad was out of town.

Jane

Yeah, because because I don't think they ever officially established how long he's gone. I know that like before he leaves when Maria is talking to Frau Schmidt, she says the last time he went to visit the Baroness, he stayed for a month. So it's implied that it's going to be for a little while, but it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't really matter, but it's nice that they're able to show like, yes, he was gone for a long time without like making it take a long time for the audience.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

By showing all the different combinations of outfits. But I must admit that, like a lot of the time, I wasn't even really paying attention to that because I don't tend to pay that much attention to costumes.

Christina

That's fine. Since we're on the topic of costumes, though, I do want to bring up my probably favorite costume moment in the entire movie, which is: when she first comes to the von Trapp household, she's wearing this grey dress which multiple people insult her about, and she and the captain have a great exchange where she says, “I don't have any other clothes. All of our clothes are given away to the poor,” and then he says, “What about that outfit?” And she says….

Jane

“The poor didn't want this one.” It's like my favorite line.

Christina

So what I love is that in the second act, when she goes in to talk to Mother Superior, right before she goes in, we see someone who is just entering the convent and she's wearing, like a snazzy green dress and then Mother superior is like, “Go off and we’ll get you wimple” or whatever she says. And then Maria comes in and they have their whole talk. And then when Maria shows back up at the von Trapp family house, she's wearing the snazzy green dress.

Jane

Yes!

Christina

And I love that they took the time to be like, we know that we set up that like they have terrible clothes at the convent, but there is a reason that she is, like dressed to the nine right now.

Jane

It is so great and like it took me so long to notice that. I think I always assumed that the reason they showed the new person coming in is like she was replacing Maria and to be like, yes, Maria needs to leave kind of thing of like, there's no reason for her to be here. We have another postulate lined up.

Christina

We have so many nuns. Don't worry about it!

Jane

It was a relatively recent viewing for me where I was like, “Ohhhh, she's wearing THAT DRESS! OK.” And that's great. I agree. That's amazing. And they don't really like, they don't hit you over the head with it. It's just very subtle, but it's there and it's great.

Christina

Yeah, yeah. So there might be other plot holes in this movie, but that is not one of them. They're like, “Don't worry. We tied this one up in a nice little bow like they added in like a whole little scene.

Jane

Just for that dress.

Christina

I mean, it's like one line, but still. OK, so one of the things that I wanted to ask because I feel like in most of your episodes so far, you've like pointed out like the possible ace identifying characters in the movie and obviously we have a bunch of nuns. So like, there's a lot of people who are celibate but like Max is

Jane

Yeah!

Christina

definitely the one who’s just like, “I’m not interested in like…” And he has friends. You know, it's not that he is like, “I don't need people,” but he's just like, “I'm not out here looking for love. I'm looking for a singing group I can take advantage of.”

Jane

Yeah, I feel like Max is definitely like very queer-coded, and he has, like certain… just the way he reads his lines and certain mannerisms, I feel like could be interpreted as stereotypically gay or something.

Christina

Interesting, I hadn't even thought of that. But now that you're saying it? Yes, I get that.

Jane

Yeah, I feel like that's, I don't know if other people see it that way. And I didn't always see it that way, but in more recent viewings. He doesn't have a partner that we know of and that could just be because that wasn't socially acceptable. But also like being aroace is also queer. So it's not necessarily that he has to be gay.

Christina

Yeah.

Jane

But yeah, and we don't see him showing any sort of like… because I think there is sort of a tendency to be like, OK, well if the Baroness doesn't end up with the captain, maybe like with Max?

Christina

No way.

Jane

But I I love their dynamic as like friends and sort of like, co-conspirators a little bit because I think that Max does want the Baroness and the captain to end up together, at least at first. I don't know how he feels about Maria to be honest, we don't really see them interact very much. But yeah, I definitely feel like he is…he's another example of like there's no one right path, right? That like he knows exactly what he wants out of life. He's not looking for a romantic partner. He's looking for a singing group that he can manage and make money off of.

Christina

Yeah. Well, I will say like, I think that he kind of does ship the Baroness with Captain von Trapp, but then I think he's also just like, yeah, like you guys are adults and like if that doesn't work out like I'm going to be just as welcoming to Maria and I'm going to be happy for Georg for like, finding the person that he actually wanted to be with plus she’s encouraging him to sing.

Jane

Well, and he he uses their their honeymoon as like, “Oh, while you guys are away, I'm going to just like, casually enter your children into a singing contest without talking to you about it, because uh, that's that's cool, right?”

Christina

Yeah, I can't believe they left them alone with Max. I mean, I guess the housekeeper was there.

Jane

Was Max supposed to be like their guardian during that time? It's not really super clear.

Christina

I mean, I guess he, you know, I don't know if he was supposed to be their guardian. I think he was just, like, staying at the house and was just like, “Oh, like, you know, I'm here. You're here. What if we enter this singing festival?”

Jane

Yeah, we don't, we don't actually see how that comes about. We cut from the wedding to them rehearsing, basically. But yeah, I I love that. I think that's so funny being like, “Yeah, just take as long of a honeymoon as you want. I'm just gonna make your children sing. It's all good.”

Christina

Yeah. All right. Well, we've gotten through all of my notes.

Jane

OK. Well, any any other last thoughts?

Christina

Oh man, just that I think I just want to say I think that the musical, the stage musical, has a reputation as being like, way too sweet. And like hokey or something. But if you have never seen the movie, or if you haven't seen it in a long time, I highly recommend revisiting it because the cinematography is beautiful, the acting is amazing, and the dialogue is very witty. And there are just some really funny scenes with Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer and, and they like, they really made a movie that I think has great themes that are told really well, so it's good. Watch that.

Jane

Yeah, I hear it being criticized for being too saccharine and I'm just like, but it's not really though, like there's a lot of really serious moments in this and and

Christina

Yeah, yeah.

Jane

And I feel like the the good ones feel earned like they are not just like oh, but everything's fine now. It's like, but we had to work to make things better again. And I do love that. I also want to mention: Best Picture winner. So I did. Watch it. When I was watching through all the Best Picture winners.

Christina

OK. Yeah.

Jane

What I noticed when I was watching through all the Best Picture winners is that most of them are very long war movies. And this is this kind of fits with that because it is very long and there is a war involved, but it's a little bit more fun to watch than some of the just like 3 hour people fighting.

Christina

One of the most fun World War Two movies there is.

Jane

It truly is. Yeah, I would agree with that.

Christina

Because there's hardly any war in it. It's just sort of like right before the war, so…

Jane

Yeah, the war is implied.

Christina

Yeah, I would say the best part of any war is before it happens.

Jane

Yeah, probably.

Christina

Yeah. What a great note to end this podcast on.

[laughter]

Jane

Anyway, thank you so much for being my guest. My first ever guest.

Christina

Thank you for inviting me. And I just want to say that being your friend is one of my favorite things.

Jane

Oh, I feel the same way!

Oh, that was so much fun! Christina is always so insightful. I hope you enjoyed hearing from her as much as I enjoyed talking to her. I have a few more guests planned for future episodes, but next week will be back to just me as I move on to the shorter of two movies that I watched 16 times, which will also be the first black and white movie I'll be talking about on here, though certainly not the last. As always, I will leave you with a quote from that next movie: “When I find myself in a position like this, I ask myself what would General Motors do? And then I do the opposite.”

#rewatch rewind #sound of music #friends chatting

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endlessly-cursed · 1 year

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hp women appreciation week, day two; favourite women that are not mine

agata della rovere; she's such an interesting and multi-layered and complex woman, I was besotted with her the moment I saw her @potionboy3

gaia alden; I know she remains a mystery but she's my emmie's descendant and i'm also in love with the concept of her and olympia (make them a couple challenge!!!) @cursed-herbalist

verna malinda; the first character of gryff that I met and I fell for. She's brave, tragic, heroic, and like me, one useless lesbian. I love her and she remains in my loml list @gaygryffindorgal

astraea mckenzie; she's beauty, she's grace, she's my baby and bestest girl of the founder's era. I fell in love with her and she remains a fav of this era ♥ @magicallymalted

ava campbell: reading book two of tpr made me fall for ava quickly: reckless, badass, with a strong sense of justice and one of the strongest characters of the saga, ava is a well-developed and written character and i can't wait to dive into her stuff @lifeofkaze

ophelia burke; she's such an interesting character, and the true embodiment of abba's 'money money money'. She's cunning, smart and knows how to play the game, and i can't wait to see the last part of symphony @the-al-chemist

brianna o'rourke; she's an underrated baby, someone i highly relate to and her character alone without her li is so interesting and fun to read! A comfort character of mine @unfortunate-arrow

virginia scott; another underrated b!tch, she's literally what i aspire to be someday, not to mention an instant crush and fav, she deserves to be in this list @slytherindisaster

adelia selwyn; a crush of mine before i came into the fandom (and later inspired me to join it!) Her beauty matches her intellect and she's one of the most all-time iconic women of the era. This legend is worthy to be here @thatravenpuffwitch

siobhan llewellyn; ofc shiv should be here!!! she was another of the inspos to join here and one of the first ocs i interacted, as well as her owners. She's badass, with a soft side, funny and witty, same goes for her owner 🤍 @kc-and-co

odette bellerose; yet another underrated baby, she's literally living my dream: live in marseille in a big ass mansion in late victorian england. she's such a complex and interesting character, she deserves to be here @kathrynalicemc

miriam cairncross; of our brokencross universe, miriam was the first lady i was introduced to and she was an instant fav!! She always shows that she's not just eli's wife and is interesting in her own right. She deserves to be here as well @cursebreakerfarrier

mathilde coventry; a recent one, she's such a badass as well! Poisoning her way through everything and ofc her special relationship with my bruna is one of the best girls out there @camillejeaneshphm

abbi bennett; ofc i had to put my wife here! She's one of the best characters, and alongside roxie, is a fav of mine. I'm forever thankful that you chose her to be ernest's wife 💜 @mjs-oc-corner

#hpwomenaw #agata della rovere #gaia alden #verna malinda #astraea mckenzie #ava campbell #ophelia burke #brianna o’rourke #virginia scott #adelia selwyn #siobhan llewellyn #odette bellerose #miriam cairncross #mathilde coventry #abbi bennett #myedits*#mine*

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ernestlaytonpolls · 3 months

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quite frankly mod ernest you are doing wonders for this fandom. from one layton poll blog to another… keep up the hard work soldier. you don’t get nearly enough appreciation what with all the effort you’re putting in!! thank you for your dedication :-)

Thanks anon! I was like a week? Now I don't remember the time exactly, putting posts in the Queue. I even got the limit posts one day jsjsjs

#Not poll #Good anon #Now I put only in queue the finished posts #So the rest I do nothing now #Mod ernest

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calculatedliterature · 2 years

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Thursday, October 13th

This week has been so full. I took a midterm today and will be starting a take-home midterm tomorrow. I’m working on my third problem set of the week and will have to read through the first half of The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway by Tuesday.

My laundry is running, a tray of brownies is cooling on the counter, and it’s raining outside. I’m sitting at my desk watching the fog and rain and working on a math problem set while drinking apple cider. It’s FALL and it feels like it. This is what it’s like to romanticize life and live in the moment. Even though I’m working, it feels cozy.

I’ve also used some free time to get to Part 2 of A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. I haven’t read it since middle school and even though I despised it then, I appreciate the poetry and humor of Dickens’ writing much more now. I may even like the book!

#studyblr #student #annotation #booklover #college #annotating books #classic literature #study blog #classics #dark academia #studyspo #a tale of two cities #charles dickens

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outoftowninac · 2 years

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THE HAREM

1924

The Harem is a three-act play by Ernest Vajda adapted by Avery Hopwood. It was originally produced and staged by David Belasco. It starred Lenore Ulric as Carla and featured William Courtenay.

The story is set in Budapest.

Carla is the actress wife of Roland Valetti, a Budapest musician. Quite by accident, someone carelessly upsets a can of water on Manon, an attractive divorcee, who stops at the Valetti residence to rest and dry her gown. Remarks lead to a bit of philosophizing between Carla and Manon. Valetti, coming in unawares, mistakes Manon for his wife and plants a passionate kiss upon wet lips. Whereupon Carla proceeds to put Manon's theory to the test. Manon avers that every man has a harem, and that no husband will remain true to his wife. Roland is intrigued into a visit to Manon's apartment. Carla goes there, too, as a Turkish princess. In this guise she succeeds in deceiving her husband, and the play ends with the customary cross-questioning, false explanations. and final confession.

Lenore Ulric (1892-1970) was discovered by David Belasco in 1913. He would go on to manage her stage career, in which she was noted for portraying fiery, hot-blooded women; the typical vamp. Belasco managed her stage career until shortly before his death in 1931. In a tribute to Belasco, she said:

All of us who were with him depended upon him so much that we'd just flounder around and say, "What do I do now?" He was a good soldier, a hard worker, and a great director.

The Harem opened in Atlantic City at Nixon’s Apollo Theatre on November 10, 1924. It then moved on to Washington DC at The National, and Fords in Baltimore.

The Harem opened on Broadway at the Belasco Theatre (111 West 44th Street).

About the Venue: David Belasco built it in 1907 with all the luxuries available. Best of all was a ten-room duplex penthouse apartment he built for himself. After his death, the theatre was leased to Katharine Cornell, then Elmer Rice. The Shuberts bought it in 1949 and, after leasing it to NBC for three years, returned it to legit use in 1953.

“There never was such a harem as this, not even to represent a Ziegfeld folly or a John-Murray-Anderson dream in chiffon. It is a gorgeous room hung in billowing silk and lighted with a smoldering Belascoan passion.” ~ BURNS MANTLE

Comparisons were inevitably made to its similarity to The Guardsman, by Ferenc Molnár, a play with a similar theme and storyline.

In early March 1925, New York theatres came under fire for immoral content. The District Attorney’s office got involved and producers, including David Belasco, were asking to revise their scripts or face suppression. Even Eugene O’Neill’s Desire Under the Elms was deemed “fundamentally bad”.

At the insistence of District Attorney Banton, Manager Belasco last week called several midnight rehearsals of ‘The Harem’ and succeeded in making numerous changes, even against the expressed and, I gather, rather vociferous opposition of Lenore Ulric.

In the second act, the bedroom upstage has been removed and in its place there is now a grand piano topped with a vase of roses.

Here is a cleaning up indeed. Nothing certainly can be more chaste than a grand piano. Unless it be two grand pianos. And what could more sweetly suggest home and mother than a vase of roses?

But will the play juror appreciate this? If Miss Ulric, as the lady of the play, should walk up to that section of the stage and remark: "Here where I stand, and where my bed used to be before they moved in this d---- piano, I say to you, musseer, I am not going back to my husband this evening!"

More scandal then rocked The Harem...

Lenore Ulric and Belasco had not been on speaking terms since he sold the screen rights to Kiki, a play she devoted three years of her life to, to United Artists, who would certainly cast Norma Talmadge in the title role. [Which is indeed what happened.] Ulric was also not happy about the play being censored and felt that Belasco did not fight hard enough for the play. Ulric suddenly gave two weeks notice. Belasco set into action to recast the role, summoning Vivienne Osborne, whom he had seen in another play still running on Broadway, to his office. She accepted his offer to replace Ulric and gave her two weeks notice to the play she was then appearing in. Broadway managers cried foul, claiming Belasco breached their gentlemen’s agreement about poaching actors. Others carped that Belasco was a ‘law unto himself’ and ran roughshod over others. The unions, however, confirmed that as long as two weeks notice was given, the actors were within their rights. Rumors persisted that Ulric was about to get married to actor Sidney Blackmer, who was also appearing on stage at the time, in a play in Brooklyn. As for Ulric, she denied that she and Belasco had fallen out, and claimed she was leaving to nurse her failing voice. Ulric’s final performance in The Harem would be on May 9, 1925.

Two weeks after Osborne’s first performance, Belasco posted a closing notice for May 30, 1925. The play scored 183 performances.

To bolster Miss Osborne, Belasco announced that he ‘may’ make the actress his next big star. But this was simply to save face. Although Osborne returned to Broadway in 1927, she never again worked for David Belasco. In 1926, Ulric returned to work for Belasco and they stayed together till his death. In 1929, Ulric married Sidney Blackmer. They were together ten years. She accepted the blame for their divorce.

“I don't think I'm comfortable to live with. I have a temper. I'm difficult. I'm too quick and too impulsive. And men have a right to be comfortable.”

#David Belasco #The Harem #Lenore Ulric #1924 #Atlantic City #Broadway #Broadway Play #Vivienne Osborne

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owlallthumbs · 1 year

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Magical March [1.1] ₊˚ʚ 💙 ₊˚✧ ﾟ.

“Only those with tenacity can march forward in March.” ― Ernest Agyemang Yeboah

A 3-month hiatus must never prolong! Hello, studyblr and my fellow narcoleptic, nocturnal, and nerdy owls! ✨

So much has happened, will happen, and will keep happening. Every day is a step towards our dream. Let's fill the year with acknowledgment, appreciation, and achievements.

Stay glad and grounded! 🙆🏼‍♀️

School? Still there! Same goals, improving habits, and inspiring people. I just received my report card for the 2nd Quarter last Friday and my general average just got 1 point higher! Though most of my grades in major subjects are the same, I'm glad that I was able to maintain them and I'm totally driven to take 'em all up! My grade in Arts and Physical Education went a few points down due to having a low score on the test. However, there's nothing to be down in the dumps, I've been raising the stakes higher and the Lord's always here for me. 🙏🏼

❗ Important Event: HS Promenade

Our theme is Midnights: Amidst the Stars (yes, stream Taylor's album here!). The ball will be on the evening of this Saturday at a hotel just near my home!

Dress : ✔

Accessories : ✔

Self : 🙂

I hope this week will mark a great beginning of March and tell me that this month's going to be stark awesome!

I'm also planning to post my first vlog on my YouTube channel this Friday. It's time to welcome you into my videographic life, stay tuned! 🤩

#owlallthumbs #study #studyblr #students #school #strssdstdntsscty #magical march

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mattabboudarts · 2 years

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Surrealism

Hello! welcome to my first blog post of the surrealism series. For the next three weeks, I will be posting about Surrealism and topics related to it.

The Beginning

What is Surrealism - Surrealism aims to revolutionize the human experience. It also balances a rational vision of life with one that asserts the power of the unconscious and dream

Why Surrealism Important- Surrealism taught the world to see art not merely visually and literally; but to appreciate it on a subconscious level as well

Co-Founder- André Robert Breton was a French writer and poet. He was best known as the co-founder of surrealism. His writings about surrealism are included in his Manifesto, in which he defines surrealism as "psychic automatism". This means the thought in the absence of all control over moral or aesthetic concerns. The artwork below is titled Egg in the church or The Snake, the media is a photographic collage. He describes the title and subject of symbolic cryptic Surrealist/ dreamlike interest in the female body as form, as well as an interest in themes concerning sexuality and religion

-Andre Breton

Egg in the church or The Snake,1932

Surrealism dreamlike Imaginary

Intro- Surrealist dreams-like imagery is probably the most recognizable element of the surrealism movement. Each artist relied on their motifs through their unconscious mind being painted. At its basic, the imagery is perplexing and even uncanny, as it is meant to complex the viewer's mind. Some motifs that artist use in their works Include: Max Ernst was obsessed with birds and Salvador Dali include ants or eggs.

Die Verwandlung (The Transfiguration) – 1977

Artist #1- Speaking of Salvador Dali, was a Spanish surrealist artist renowned for his technical skill, precise draftsmanship, and striking and bizarre images in his work. This piece is titled The Persistence of Memory, he described the melting watches are a senseless symbol of time and space, its also thought of as the collapse of knowledge of cosmic order. He said he was inspired by Albert Esiten’s theory of Special relativity.

The Persistence of Memory, 1931

Artist #2- Max Ernest is a German painter, sculptor, printmaker, graphic artist, and poet. This piece is titled The Triumph of Surrealism he stated that he tried to create a sense of chaos and destruction because He forces the viewer's mind to think of these elements in a biblical sense. Ernst draws his audience to imagine the angel in the painting as if it were the angel of death from the seven plagues.

The Angel of the home,1937

War Effect on Surrealism

Intro- Most surrealist artists had to change their art to help express their moods and their unconscious minds about certain wars or periods. What was originally sweet-like dream settings become more monster-like and depressing.

Artist #1- Another painting by Salvador Dali and its titled Soft Construction with Boiled Beans. He created it to represent the terror of the Spanish Civil war, he also painted it only six months before it began. He claimed that he was aware the war was going to occur before it began because of the power of his subconscious mind. He also described it as the monster pulling its body parts, like my country is being pulled apart by the civil war.

Soft Construction with Boiled Beans, 1936

Artist #2- Max Ernst, who fought in the trenches during World War I, began his painting "Europe after the Rain II" in France in 1940, before leaving Europe and arriving in New York in 1941. He said he wanted to show emotional desolation, physical exhaustion, and fears of the destructive power of total warfare combined - after the rain of fire

Europe after the Rain II, 1941

Surrealism in 3D

Intro- The newest form of surrealism was being formed and had to do with the sculpture's media, called assemblage. Surrealists believe this had the power to puncture the thin façade of our reality and tap into our minds. They also stated to aid the structured insanity of all the senses.

Artist #1- This piece is called Breakfast in fur created by Méret Oppenheim, who is a German-born Swiss Surrealist artist and photographer. She wanted the piece to cause the viewers different feelings within like for one she described the object to be relaxing but not causing aggression because of the fur or when the fur is nice to pet or touch but uncomfortable if drinking.

Breakfast in Fur, 1936

Artist #2- This piece is called Dining Table and was created by Michael Beitz who is still alive he does sculptures, drawings, and functional designs to examine his relationships and anxieties. He described this piece to look at "the silent tension that often exists between close people and the inability to communicate." He says loves doing surrealism in the real world because he loves to change everyday items and change their structure

Dining Table, 2011

Artist #3- This piece is called Knot and another one was created by Micheal Beitz, he described this piece as the need the cancellation within the sofa and it represents the no longer comfort and leisure. How he describes his works are very serious but somewhat pleasing to the viewer and funny and funny. This is stated isn't true the only thing funny things come from uneasy places.

Knot, 2011

Surrealism and Graphic Design

Intro- Companies try to strive to craft refreshing items, this new refreshing can be a surrealist technique because it is an element of surprise for the design world. Customers can be caught off guard by a contrasting color palette, unusual pairs of images, and typefaces that stretch how a letterform can bend. Because of these wacky elements, it can create a unique language and viewers out of their traditional experiences into a different world.

Artist #1 This logo is created by KisaDesign and is titled Sandbox, it was for Sandbox Films which is a production studio that illuminates the art and beauty of science. The logo is creating a surreal look by changing the sand into the mountain.

Sandbox films,

Artist #2 This logo was created by Yiying Lu who is an award-winning artist, entrepreneur, educator, and bilingual speaker. She was named a “Fast Company's Most Creative People in Business” I couldn't find who she design this look for but again created the dream-like motif of making you second guess yourself. Couldn't find what the logo was designed for but this an example for of her surreal work

Thank you for tuning in this week of my blog, tune in next week for the next topic of Surrealism in different mediums.

See you Next Week!

#blog post #art

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the-firebird69 · 20 days

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So Trump started his s*** with us this morning and hasn't stopped and he is getting hit and he's getting taken down and his are doing some sort of asinine dance and he refuses to shut his mouth would go somewhere else. He lost interest in the Washington group and he is going down that group is the one that runs the mall then he is out of there shortly he only has like 5% and then he's a dead man no but he's out of the mall and he is an a****** sitting there screwing around with our son he does it every morning and it sits there in his truck with a damn door open threatening say he's going to try and get his weapon out and we're going to take care of that. And we're going to make him pay now he is a big huge a****** and he is issuing threats right now and we're going to take care of him for what he's saying sitting there threatening his balls off now we're like 10 minutes he does it every morning every single morning that's this twitch routine this should have routine and finally he leaves and we're going to make him pay for it. There's a huge loser and spends his time tying people up so he can sit there and harass our son with a 5 year old child would. We're going to eradicate him in his permanently

And Garth is now asking for it and further we do not appreciate your appearance in the first place and your mouth is going to get you killed and his as I don't care for it says who gives a s*** what you care for adhere to some simple rules or die pig in our son said that to him it looks over and says I can take you said let's f****** wrong with you deaf boy and he's in pain he says he tell you that and stuff and then you suffer damage so he's sitting there going out ouch ouch let me hit and he says waiting to make it up to me since we start hitting you again today and we are and his got wiped out never pulling his computers out. Guys are freaking moron my son says he's going to blow through all the stop signs so we're going to blow through his ass and we're going to take him down along with the staring freaking moron Trump and he is such a free and idiot said we tell you not to do something you go ahead and do it and you get hit every time you're just going to continue to get hit and our son and daughter say we can have to and now Dan is doing it so we're going to start hitting that stupid phone so we're killing people using assassins and your mouth is open again. And it starts saying I'm not accustomed to it I said you'll get accustomed to it in a few weeks they'll be just you left you'll still be the same a****** but it'll be your turn so he started saying this we don't have any hope at all and say that I hope so I hope not and screaming it and I'm saying I hope not so they don't really get what they're doing and how stupid they look they will shortly cuz everybody wants their stuff and their money and all that stuff they took and an adjusted doing very badly this morning as hell and these two won't shut up no matter how many times they die so they're going to have to continue to until it's over and they demand it. I'll tell you what we're going to start debating I don't want them taking stuff through the islands or ships

Thor Freya

I'm remembering something trying to be careful what you look like what we look like are a bunch of ninis having him do the job. Come to think of it Cassandra and her brother and he does not have any intimacy with her and says she is a heinous heinous fat ass s*** ass b**** and gross and you can't talk to her and she is that way and would not shut up in the Dollar general for any math or purpose. I looked at her after he was in there I said you're dead for this s*** such a f****** a****** and I figured out what's going on and yeah from movies no they're taking people augmented them and putting them against each other the code began with augmentin and Ernest and can be traced and we're going to do that and to Max back in westborough and these guys don't have a presence of mine to fight it and it's terrible it is very hokey we're doing here is probably wrong a lot of people don't care and don't come back any means you stupid idiots Garth at this time she's mulatto and then she wants to be Melissa and we don't want her around or you your Hondo and your friend him then Sarah was her the whole time and then you threatened him on the mountain and he said this on the way home I know you're up there for and you're not going to see me for quite a while and I don't like your kind and stay away from me or I'll kill you by hand and he was astounded and told him to shut up whenever he tried to talk so is in the car give me a ride he's trying to do it back and the two are telling him to shut the f****** because he's an idiot and he was an idiot the first time and he says I'm making an attempt Hawaiian island an idiot to attempt at what stupid and that opened it up and these people have to go and Tommy f is the biggest offender and everyone wants him gone but they're too stupid to figure it out it's a rickety crappy system to begin with this guy Tommy have threw it into high gear nobody can pull out most of the garbage is pure s*** now and I did out of this and Tommy enough you got to go get shot at him and gothamar is you're a total f****** idiot with Garth Myers you're a f****** moron all of you are but boy do you take the cake you couldn't figure it out and if you do you start turning on everybody an instance you're just a terrible person you're a horrendous liar and a massive boob you have to practically break your bones to get you to do something I could not stand you in westborough I can't stand you here and he's right you're so stupid you're a turd and you're in there in the hospital and it's an act and I said I'd rather sit next to him at least he knows what he's doing and doesn't harm me on purpose because he'd get hurt or his people and it's smart and you're so damn dumb you try it all the time and you're an animal I'm going to write this up to get rid of

Mac daddy

Olympus permission to print granted

I am so happy that guy is such a dunce and an a****** he comments about everything and is a spewing f****** loser and boy what an example cuz they're the same they just don't say it all all the time they have him say it like the mouth of sauron and stuff

Hera

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Text

Up From Slavery: Part 17

of 18 parts. Chapter XVI. Europe

In 1893 I was married to Miss Margaret James Murray, a native of Mississippi, and a graduate of Fisk University, in Nashville, Tenn., who had come to Tuskegee as a teacher several years before, and at the time we were married was filling the position of Lady Principal.

Not only is Mrs. Washington completely one with me in the work directly connected with the school, relieving me of many burdens and perplexities, but aside from her work on the school grounds, she carries on a mothers' meeting in the town of Tuskegee, and a plantation work among the women, children, and men who live in a settlement connected with a large plantation about eight miles from Tuskegee. Both the mothers' meeting and the plantation work are carried on, not only with a view to helping those who are directly reached, but also for the purpose of furnishing object-lessons in these two kinds of work that may be followed by our students when they go out into the world for their own life-work.

Aside from these two enterprises, Mrs. Washington is also largely responsible for a woman's club at the school which brings together, twice a month, the women who live on the school grounds and those who live near, for the discussion of some important topic. She is also the President of what is known as the Federation of Southern Coloured Women's Clubs, and is Chairman of the Executive Committee of the National Federation of Coloured Women's Clubs.

Portia, the oldest of my three children, has learned dressmaking. She has unusual ability in instrumental music. Aside from her studies at Tuskegee, she has already begun to teach there.

Booker Taliaferro is my next oldest child. Young as he is, he has already nearly mastered the brickmason's trade. He began working at this trade when he was quite small, dividing his time between this and class work; and he has developed great skill in the trade and a fondness for it. He says that he is going to be an architect and brickmason. One of the most satisfactory letters that I have ever received from any one came to me from Booker last summer. When I left home for the summer, I told him that he must work at his trade half of each day, and that the other half of the day he could spend as he pleased. When I had been away from home two weeks, I received the following letter from him:

Tuskegee, Alabama.

My dear Papa: Before you left home you told me to work at my trade half of each day. I like my work so much that I want to work at my trade all day. Besides, I want to earn all the money I can, so that when I go to another school I shall have money to pay my expenses.

Your son,

Booker.

My youngest child, Ernest Davidson Washington, says that he is going to be a physician. In addition to going to school, where he studies books and has manual training, he regularly spends a portion of his time in the office of our resident physician, and has already learned to do many of the duties which pertain to a doctor's office.

The thing in my life which brings me the keenest regret is that my work in connection with public affairs keeps me for so much of the time away from my family, where, of all places in the world, I delight to be. I always envy the individual whose life-work is so laid that he can spend his evenings at home. I have sometimes thought that people who have this rare privilege do not appreciate it as they should. It is such a rest and relief to get away from crowds of people, and handshaking, and travelling, to get home, even if it be for but a very brief while.

Another thing at Tuskegee out of which I get a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction is in the meeting with our students, and teachers, and their families, in the chapel for devotional exercises every evening at half-past eight, the last thing before retiring for the night. It is an inspiring sight when one stands on the platform there and sees before him eleven or twelve hundred earnest young men and women; and one cannot but feel that it is a privilege to help to guide them to a higher and more useful life.

In the spring of 1899 there came to me what I might describe as almost the greatest surprise of my life. Some good ladies in Boston arranged a public meeting in the interests of Tuskegee, to be held in the Hollis Street Theatre. This meeting was attended by large numbers of the best people of Boston, of both races. Bishop Lawrence presided. In addition to an address made by myself, Mr. Paul Lawrence Dunbar read from his poems, and Dr. W.E.B. Du Bois read an original sketch.

Some of those who attended this meeting noticed that I seemed unusually tired, and some little time after the close of the meeting, one of the ladies who had been interested in it asked me in a casual way if I had ever been to Europe. I replied that I never had. She asked me if I had ever thought of going, and I told her no; that it was something entirely beyond me. This conversation soon passed out of my mind, but a few days afterward I was informed that some friends in Boston, including Mr. Francis J. Garrison, had raised a sum of money sufficient to pay all the expenses of Mrs. Washington and myself during a three or four months' trip to Europe. It was added with emphasis that we must go. A year previous to this Mr. Garrison had attempted to get me to promise to go to Europe for a summer's rest, with the understanding that he would be responsible for raising the money among his friends for the expenses of the trip. At that time such a journey seemed so entirely foreign to anything that I should ever be able to undertake that I did confess I did not give the matter very serious attention; but later Mr. Garrison joined his efforts to those of the ladies whom I have mentioned, and when their plans were made known to me Mr. Garrison not only had the route mapped out, but had, I believe, selected the steamer upon which we were to sail.

The whole thing was so sudden and so unexpected that I was completely taken off my feet. I had been at work steadily for eighteen years in connection with Tuskegee, and I had never thought of anything else but ending my life in that way. Each day the school seemed to depend upon me more largely for its daily expenses, and I told these Boston friends that, while I thanked them sincerely for their thoughtfulness and generosity, I could not go to Europe, for the reason that the school could not live financially while I was absent. They then informed me that Mr. Henry L. Higginson, and some other good friends who I know do not want their names made public, were then raising a sum of money which would be sufficient to keep the school in operation while I was away. At this point I was compelled to surrender. Every avenue of escape had been closed.

Deep down in my heart the whole thing seemed more like a dream than like reality, and for a long time it was difficult for me to make myself believe that I was actually going to Europe. I had been born and largely reared in the lowest depths of slavery, ignorance, and poverty. In my childhood I had suffered for want of a place to sleep, for lack of food, clothing, and shelter. I had not had the privilege of sitting down to a dining-table until I was quite well grown. Luxuries had always seemed to me to be something meant for white people, not for my race. I had always regarded Europe, and London, and Paris, much as I regarded heaven. And now could it be that I was actually going to Europe? Such thoughts as these were constantly with me.

Two other thoughts troubled me a good deal. I feared that people who heard that Mrs. Washington and I were going to Europe might not know all the circumstances, and might get the idea that we had become, as some might say, "stuck up," and were trying to "show off." I recalled that from my youth I had heard it said that too often, when people of my race reached any degree of success, they were inclined to unduly exalt themselves; to try and ape the wealthy, and in so doing to lose their heads. The fear that people might think this of us haunted me a good deal. Then, too, I could not see how my conscience would permit me to spare the time from my work and be happy. It seemed mean and selfish in me to be taking a vacation while others were at work, and while there was so much that needed to be done. From the time I could remember, I had always been at work, and I did not see how I could spend three or four months in doing nothing. The fact was that I did not know how to take a vacation.

Mrs. Washington had much the same difficulty in getting away, but she was anxious to go because she thought that I needed the rest. There were many important National questions bearing upon the life of the race which were being agitated at that time, and this made it all the harder for us to decide to go. We finally gave our Boston friends our promise that we would go, and then they insisted that the date of our departure be set as soon as possible. So we decided upon May 10. My good friend Mr. Garrison kindly took charge of all the details necessary for the success of the trip, and he, as well as other friends, gave us a great number of letters of introduction to people in France and England, and made other arrangements for our comfort and convenience abroad. Good-bys were said at Tuskegee, and we were in New York May 9, ready to sail the next day. Our daughter Portia, who was then studying in South Framingham, Mass., came to New York to see us off. Mr. Scott, my secretary, came with me to New York, in order that I might clear up the last bit of business before I left. Other friends also came to New York to see us off. Just before we went on board the steamer another pleasant surprise came to us in the form of a letter from two generous ladies, stating that they had decided to give us the money with which to erect a new building to be used in properly housing all our industries for girls at Tuskegee.

We were to sail on the Friesland, of the Red Star Line, and a beautiful vessel she was. We went on board just before noon, the hour of sailing. I had never before been on board a large ocean steamer, and the feeling which took possession of me when I found myself there is rather hard to describe. It was a feeling, I think, of awe mingled with delight. We were agreeably surprised to find that the captain, as well as several of the other officers, not only knew who we were, but was expecting us and gave us a pleasant greeting. There were several passengers whom we knew, including Senator Sewell, of New Jersey, and Edward Marshall, the newspaper correspondent. I had just a little fear that we would not be treated civilly by some of the passengers. This fear was based upon what I had heard other people of my race, who had crossed the ocean, say about unpleasant experiences in crossing the ocean in American vessels. But in our case, from the captain down to the most humble servant, we were treated with the greatest kindness. Nor was this kindness confined to those who were connected with the steamer; it was shown by all the passengers also. There were not a few Southern men and women on board, and they were as cordial as those from other parts of the country.

As soon as the last good-bys were said, and the steamer had cut loose from the wharf, the load of care, anxiety, and responsibility which I had carried for eighteen years began to lift itself from my shoulders at the rate, it seemed to me, of a pound a minute. It was the first time in all those years that I had felt, even in a measure, free from care; and my feeling of relief it is hard to describe on paper. Added to this was the delightful anticipation of being in Europe soon. It all seemed more like a dream than like a reality.

Mr. Garrison had thoughtfully arranged to have us have one of the most comfortable rooms on the ship. The second or third day out I began to sleep, and I think that I slept at the rate of fifteen hours a day during the remainder of the ten days' passage. Then it was that I began to understand how tired I really was. These long sleeps I kept up for a month after we landed on the other side. It was such an unusual feeling to wake up in the morning and realize that I had no engagements; did not have to take a train at a certain hour; did not have an appointment to meet some one, or to make an address, at a certain hour. How different all this was from the experiences that I have been through when travelling, when I have sometimes slept in three different beds in a single night!

When Sunday came, the captain invited me to conduct the religious services, but, not being a minister, I declined. The passengers, however, began making requests that I deliver an address to them in the dining-saloon some time during the voyage, and this I consented to do. Senator Sewell presided at this meeting. After ten days of delightful weather, during which I was not seasick for a day, we landed at the interesting old city of Antwerp, in Belgium.

The next day after we landed happened to be one of those numberless holidays which the people of those countries are in the habit of observing. It was a bright, beautiful day. Our room in the hotel faced the main public square, and the sights there—the people coming in from the country with all kinds of beautiful flowers to sell, the women coming in with their dogs drawing large, brightly polished cans filled with milk, the people streaming into the cathedral—filled me with a sense of newness that I had never before experienced.

After spending some time in Antwerp, we were invited to go with a part of a half-dozen persons on a trip through Holland. This party included Edward Marshall and some American artists who had come over on the same steamer with us. We accepted the invitation, and enjoyed the trip greatly. I think it was all the more interesting and instructive because we went for most of the way on one of the slow, old-fashioned canal-boats. This gave us an opportunity of seeing and studying the real life of the people in the country districts. We went in this way as far as Rotterdam, and later went to The Hague, where the Peace Conference was then in session, and where we were kindly received by the American representatives.

The thing that impressed itself most on me in Holland was the thoroughness of the agriculture and the excellence of the Holstein cattle. I never knew, before visiting Holland, how much it was possible for people to get out of a small plot of ground. It seemed to me that absolutely no land was wasted. It was worth a trip to Holland, too, just to get a sight of three or four hundred fine Holstein cows grazing in one of those intensely green fields.

From Holland we went to Belgium, and made a hasty trip through that country, stopping at Brussels, where we visited the battlefield of Waterloo. From Belgium we went direct to Paris, where we found that Mr. Theodore Stanton, the son of Mrs. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, had kindly provided accommodations for us. We had barely got settled in Paris before an invitation came to me from the University Club of Paris to be its guest at a banquet which was soon to be given. The other guests were ex-President Benjamin Harrison and Archbishop Ireland, who were in Paris at the time. The American Ambassador, General Horace Porter, presided at the banquet. My address on this occasion seemed to give satisfaction to those who heard it. General Harrison kindly devoted a large portion of his remarks at dinner to myself and to the influence of the work at Tuskegee on the American race question. After my address at this banquet other invitations came to me, but I declined the most of them, knowing that if I accepted them all, the object of my visit would be defeated. I did, however, consent to deliver an address in the American chapel the following Sunday morning, and at this meeting General Harrison, General Porter, and other distinguished Americans were present.

Later we received a formal call from the American Ambassador, and were invited to attend a reception at his residence. At this reception we met many Americans, among them Justices Fuller and Harlan, of the United States Supreme Court. During our entire stay of a month in Paris, both the American Ambassador and his wife, as well as several other Americans, were very kind to us.

While in Paris we saw a good deal of the now famous American Negro painter, Mr. Henry O. Tanner, whom we had formerly known in America. It was very satisfactory to find how well known Mr. Tanner was in the field of art, and to note the high standing which all classes accorded to him. When we told some Americans that we were going to the Luxembourg Palace to see a painting by an American Negro, it was hard to convince them that a Negro had been thus honoured. I do not believe that they were really convinced of the fact until they saw the picture for themselves. My acquaintance with Mr. Tanner reenforced in my mind the truth which I am constantly trying to impress upon our students at Tuskegee—and on our people throughout the country, as far as I can reach them with my voice—that any man, regardless of colour, will be recognized and rewarded just in proportion as he learns to do something well—learns to do it better than some one else—however humble the thing may be. As I have said, I believe that my race will succeed in proportion as it learns to do a common thing in an uncommon manner; learns to do a thing so thoroughly that no one can improve upon what it has done; learns to make its services of indispensable value. This was the spirit that inspired me in my first effort at Hampton, when I was given the opportunity to sweep and dust that schoolroom. In a degree I felt that my whole future life depended upon the thoroughness with which I cleaned that room, and I was determined to do it so well that no one could find any fault with the job. Few people ever stopped, I found, when looking at his pictures, to inquire whether Mr. Tanner was a Negro painter, a French painter, or a German painter. They simply knew that he was able to produce something which the world wanted—a great painting—and the matter of his colour did not enter into their minds. When a Negro girl learns to cook, to wash dishes, to sew, or write a book, or a Negro boy learns to groom horses, or to grow sweet potatoes, or to produce butter, or to build a house, or to be able to practise medicine, as well or better than some one else, they will be rewarded regardless of race or colour. In the long run, the world is going to have the best, and any difference in race, religion, or previous history will not long keep the world from what it wants.

I think that the whole future of my race hinges on the question as to whether or not it can make itself of such indispensable value that the people in the town and the state where we reside will feel that our presence is necessary to the happiness and well-being of the community. No man who continues to add something to the material, intellectual, and moral well-being of the place in which he lives is long left without proper reward. This is a great human law which cannot be permanently nullified.

The love of pleasure and excitement which seems in a large measure to possess the French people impressed itself upon me. I think they are more noted in this respect than is true of the people of my own race. In point of morality and moral earnestness I do not believe that the French are ahead of my own race in America. Severe competition and the great stress of life have led them to learn to do things more thoroughly and to exercise greater economy; but time, I think, will bring my race to the same point. In the matter of truth and high honour I do not believe that the average Frenchman is ahead of the American Negro; while so far as mercy and kindness to dumb animals go, I believe that my race is far ahead. In fact, when I left France, I had more faith in the future of the black man in America than I had ever possessed.

From Paris we went to London, and reached there early in July, just about the height of the London social season. Parliament was in session, and there was a great deal of gaiety. Mr. Garrison and other friends had provided us with a large number of letters of introduction, and they had also sent letters to other persons in different parts of the United Kingdom, apprising these people of our coming. Very soon after reaching London we were flooded with invitations to attend all manner of social functions, and a great many invitations came to me asking that I deliver public addresses. The most of these invitations I declined, for the reason that I wanted to rest. Neither were we able to accept more than a small proportion of the other invitations. The Rev. Dr. Brooke Herford and Mrs. Herford, whom I had known in Boston, consulted with the American Ambassador, the Hon. Joseph Choate, and arranged for me to speak at a public meeting to be held in Essex Hall. Mr. Choate kindly consented to preside. The meeting was largely attended. There were many distinguished persons present, among them several members of Parliament, including Mr. James Bryce, who spoke at the meeting. What the American Ambassador said in introducing me, as well as a synopsis of what I said, was widely published in England and in the American papers at the time. Dr. and Mrs. Herford gave Mrs. Washington and myself a reception, at which we had the privilege of meeting some of the best people in England. Throughout our stay in London Ambassador Choate was most kind and attentive to us. At the Ambassador's reception I met, for the first time, Mark Twain.

We were the guests several times of Mrs. T. Fisher Unwin, the daughter of the English statesman, Richard Cobden. It seemed as if both Mr. and Mrs. Unwin could not do enough for our comfort and happiness. Later, for nearly a week, we were the guests of the daughter of John Bright, now Mrs. Clark, of Street, England. Both Mr. and Mrs. Clark, with their daughter, visited us at Tuskegee the next year. In Birmingham, England, we were the guests for several days of Mr. Joseph Sturge, whose father was a great abolitionist and friend of Whittier and Garrison. It was a great privilege to meet throughout England those who had known and honoured the late William Lloyd Garrison, the Hon. Frederick Douglass, and other abolitionists. The English abolitionists with whom we came in contact never seemed to tire of talking about these two Americans. Before going to England I had had no proper conception of the deep interest displayed by the abolitionists of England in the cause of freedom, nor did I realize the amount of substantial help given by them.

In Bristol, England, both Mrs. Washington and I spoke at the Women's Liberal Club. I was also the principal speaker at the Commencement exercises of the Royal College for the Blind. These exercises were held in the Crystal Palace, and the presiding officer was the late Duke of Westminster, who was said to be, I believe, the richest man in England, if not in the world. The Duke, as well as his wife and their daughter, seemed to be pleased with what I said, and thanked me heartily. Through the kindness of Lady Aberdeen, my wife and I were enabled to go with a party of those who were attending the International Congress of Women, then in session in London, to see Queen Victoria, at Windsor Castle, where, afterward, we were all the guests of her Majesty at tea. In our party was Miss Susan B. Anthony, and I was deeply impressed with the fact that one did not often get an opportunity to see, during the same hour, two women so remarkable in different ways as Susan B. Anthony and Queen Victoria.

In the House of Commons, which we visited several times, we met Sir Henry M. Stanley. I talked with him about Africa and its relation to the American Negro, and after my interview with him I became more convinced than ever that there was no hope of the American Negro's improving his condition by emigrating to Africa.

On various occasions Mrs. Washington and I were the guests of Englishmen in their country homes, where, I think, one sees the Englishman at his best. In one thing, at least, I feel sure that the English are ahead of Americans, and that is, that they have learned how to get more out of life. The home life of the English seems to me to be about as perfect as anything can be. Everything moves like clockwork. I was impressed, too, with the deference that the servants show to their "masters" and "mistresses,"—terms which I suppose would not be tolerated in America. The English servant expects, as a rule, to be nothing but a servant, and so he perfects himself in the art to a degree that no class of servants in America has yet reached. In our country the servant expects to become, in a few years, a "master" himself. Which system is preferable? I will not venture an answer.

Another thing that impressed itself upon me throughout England was the high regard that all classes have for law and order, and the ease and thoroughness with which everything is done. The Englishmen, I found, took plenty of time for eating, as for everything else. I am not sure if, in the long run, they do not accomplish as much or more than rushing, nervous Americans do.

My visit to England gave me a higher regard for the nobility than I had had. I had no idea that they were so generally loved and respected by the classes, nor had I any correct conception of how much time and money they spent in works of philanthropy, and how much real heart they put into this work. My impression had been that they merely spent money freely and had a "good time."

It was hard for me to get accustomed to speaking to English audiences. The average Englishman is so serious, and is so tremendously in earnest about everything, that when I told a story that would have made an American audience roar with laughter, the Englishmen simply looked me straight in the face without even cracking a smile.

When the Englishman takes you into his heart and friendship, he binds you there as with cords of steel, and I do not believe that there are many other friendships that are so lasting or so satisfactory. Perhaps I can illustrate this point in no better way than by relating the following incident. Mrs. Washington and I were invited to attend a reception given by the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland, at Stafford House—said to be the finest house in London; I may add that I believe the Duchess of Sutherland is said to be the most beautiful woman in England. There must have been at least three hundred persons at this reception. Twice during the evening the Duchess sought us out for a conversation, and she asked me to write her when we got home, and tell her more about the work at Tuskegee. This I did. When Christmas came we were surprised and delighted to receive her photograph with her autograph on it. The correspondence has continued, and we now feel that in the Duchess of Sutherland we have one of our warmest friends.

After three months in Europe we sailed from Southampton in the steamship St. Louis. On this steamer there was a fine library that had been presented to the ship by the citizens of St. Louis, Mo. In this library I found a life of Frederick Douglass, which I began reading. I became especially interested in Mr. Douglass's description of the way he was treated on shipboard during his first or second visit to England. In this description he told how he was not permitted to enter the cabin, but had to confine himself to the deck of the ship. A few minutes after I had finished reading this description I was waited on by a committee of ladies and gentlemen with the request that I deliver an address at a concert which was to begin the following evening. And yet there are people who are bold enough to say that race feeling in America is not growing less intense! At this concert the Hon. Benjamin B. Odell, Jr., the present governor of New York, presided. I was never given a more cordial hearing anywhere. A large proportion of the passengers were Southern people. After the concert some of the passengers proposed that a subscription be raised to help the work at Tuskegee, and the money to support several scholarships was the result.

While we were in Paris I was very pleasantly surprised to receive the following invitation from the citizens of West Virginia and of the city near which I had spent my boyhood days:—

Charleston, W. Va., May 16, 1899.

Professor Booker T. Washington, Paris, France:

Dear Sir: Many of the best citizens of West Virginia have united in liberal expressions of admiration and praise of your worth and work, and desire that on your return from Europe you should favour them with your presence and with the inspiration of your words. We must sincerely indorse this move, and on behalf of the citizens of Charleston extend to your our most cordial invitation to have you come to us, that we may honour you who have done so much by your life and work to honour us.

We are,

Very truly yours,

The Common Council of the City of Charleston,

By W. Herman Smith, Mayor.

This invitation from the City Council of Charleston was accompanied by the following:—

Professor Booker T. Washington, Paris, France:

Dear Sir: We, the citizens of Charleston and West Virginia, desire to express our pride in you and the splendid career that you have thus far accomplished, and ask that we be permitted to show our pride and interest in a substantial way.

Your recent visit to your old home in our midst awoke within us the keenest regret that we were not permitted to hear you and render some substantial aid to your work, before you left for Europe.

In view of the foregoing, we earnestly invite you to share the hospitality of our city upon your return from Europe, and give us the opportunity to hear you and put ourselves in touch with your work in a way that will be most gratifying to yourself, and that we may receive the inspiration of your words and presence.

An early reply to this invitation, with an indication of the time you may reach our city, will greatly oblige,

Yours very respectfully,

The Charleston Daily Gazette, The Daily Mail-Tribune; G.W. Atkinson, Governor; E.L. Boggs, Secretary to Governor; Wm. M.O. Dawson, Secretary of State; L.M. La Follette, Auditor; J.R. Trotter, Superintendent of Schools; E.W. Wilson, ex-Governor; W.A. MacCorkle, ex-Governor; John Q. Dickinson, President Kanawha Valley Bank; L. Prichard, President Charleston National Bank; Geo. S. Couch, President Kanawha National Bank; Ed. Reid, Cashier Kanawha National Bank; Geo. S. Laidley, Superintended City Schools; L.E. McWhorter, President Board of Education; Chas. K. Payne, wholesale merchant; and many others.

This invitation, coming as it did from the City Council, the state officers, and all the substantial citizens of both races of the community where I had spent my boyhood, and from which I had gone a few years before, unknown, in poverty and ignorance, in quest of an education, not only surprised me, but almost unmanned me. I could not understand what I had done to deserve it all.

I accepted the invitation, and at the appointed day was met at the railway station at Charleston by a committee headed by ex-Governor W.A. MacCorkle, and composed of men of both races. The public reception was held in the Opera-House at Charleston. The Governor of the state, the Hon. George W. Atkinson, presided, and an address of welcome was made by ex-Governor MacCorkle. A prominent part in the reception was taken by the coloured citizens. The Opera-House was filled with citizens of both races, and among the white people were many for whom I had worked when I was a boy. The next day Governor and Mrs. Atkinson gave me a public reception at the State House, which was attended by all classes.

Not long after this the coloured people in Atlanta, Georgia, gave me a reception at which the Governor of the state presided, and a similar reception was given me in New Orleans, which was presided over by the Mayor of the city. Invitations came from many other places which I was not able to accept.

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psychreviews2 · 28 days

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Object Relations: Melanie Klein Pt. 3

Getting her act together

As Melanie Klein put her past behind her, she began conversing with analysts in England. There was a mixture of skepticism with a sense of wonder and mystery about her process. She appeared both as a riff raff in the psychoanalytical community, but others were curious to see if she had been underrated, a diamond in the rough. Alix Strachey got the impression that "Mélanie is rather tiresome as a person—a sort of ex-beauty and charmer—and she’s unpopular with a certain section of the [Society] who pretend she’s quite sound in practice, but feebleminded about theory." Melanie felt that she was ahead of Hug-Hellmuth, because she found the Oedipus Complex with her play technique, whereas the former had not. "She’s not only got vast hoards of data, but a great many ideas, all rather formless and mixed, but clearly capable of crystallizing in her mind. She’s got a creative mind, and that’s the main thing." Hug-Hellmuth on the other hand was an influence to Anna Freud, who went more in the direction of Ego psychology.

Even as Melanie was keeping her personal life secret in many ways, like not talking about her estranged husband, she was willing to live life fully. "She’s really a very good sort and makes no secret of her hopes, fears, and pleasures, which are of the simplest sort." The two were in Berlin and living it up at dances and balls, despite having different personalities. "While Melanie was extremely perspicacious about analysis, Alix found her limited as a person." Regardless, Alix was sending copious letters back to England with the insights she was learning from Melanie. The translations into English were difficult but when Klein arrived in England, she found the experience positive overall and wanted to stay. "In 1925 I had the wonderful experience of speaking to an interested and appreciative audience in London—all members were present at Dr. Stephen’s house because at that time there was not yet an institute where I could give these lectures. Ernest Jones asked me whether I would answer in the discussion. Although I had learnt a lot of English privately and at school, my English was still not good and I remember well that I was half guessing what I was asked, but it seemed that I could satisfy my audience that way. The three weeks that I spent in London, giving two lectures a week, were one of the happiest times of my life. I found such friendliness, hospitality and interest, and I also had an opportunity of seeing something of England and I developed a great liking for the English. It is true that later on things did not always go easily, but those three weeks were very important in my decision to live in England."

Her impact was immediate and Melanie was starting to network with other experimental child psychologists in England, and she began taking the extra money she was earning to dress more professionally and reinvent herself after her failed marriage. Ernest Jones responded to Freud's objections, with a crossed out word that the author Phyllis Grosskurth thought was a slip that revealed his new allegiance. "I know that Melanie Klein’s work has met with considerable opposition in Vienna and also in Berlin, though more at first than later. I regard the fact as indicating nothing but resistance against accepting the reality of her your conclusions concerning infantile life. Prophylactic child analysis appears to me to be the logical outcome of psycho-analysis." Alix at the time was growing tired of Melanie's fastidiousness and goody-two-shoes persona, but she still respected her knowledge. "However, I like her, and she’s very impressive in her line, there’s no doubt of it. (I now think that Anna Freud simply hates her on personal grounds because she thinks she’s a 'low' woman. Someone ought to speak to her about her general sniffiness, don’t you think?)"

Melanie was also involved in a fling with C.Z. Kloetzel, in her last days on the continent, but it was a mismatch between a woman who wanted a long-term relationship alongside a strong sexual compatibility, but "Melanie Klein was too intense, too serious, too depressed for the kind of lighthearted liaison Kloetzel had in mind. She seems, however, to have continued to exert a strong sexual attraction for him since, according to Eric Clyne, he made periodic trips to England to visit her. She was an intelligent woman who was capable of losing her head. The man whom she always considered the love of her life seems to have regarded the relationship as one of a series of trifling flings." When she was invited to England to analyze Ernest Jones's children, it ended up being the last time she saw Berlin or Vienna.

Around this time, Melanie's analyst, Karl Abraham, died at a young age leaving her analysis in limbo. For her it was "a great pain to me and a very painful situation to come through. When I abruptly finished my analysis with Abraham there was much that had not been analysed, and I have continually proceeded along the lines of knowing more about my deepest anxieties and defences." She loved Abraham because he defended her in Berlin, but after his death, the Berlin Society increased their attacks on her. Sandor Radó in particular was very jealous and refused to publish Klein's works, because he was passed on Freud's papers from Ferenczi to read, and so he felt close to the source of true knowledge. A continental vs. English rivalry was beginning to brew.

Criticism

When Anna Freud was beginning to publish, she was having trouble getting acceptance in England. Her theories on child psychology differed from those of Melanie's. For instance, Anna was less into interpreting everything that arose within children and wanted to allow more simple explanations, to avoid being too suggestive, but ironically, she supported an educational mentorship, partially because children are still developing and need to learn so many practical things. They also disagreed on what the transferences meant, both positive and negative towards the analyst. The big differences between Klein's methods and Anna's was the differences in ages of the children. Melanie wanted to go as far back as possible, whereas Anna felt that this could be too intense for the children. Those convinced by Melanie Klein found that the analysts themselves may have had their own blocks to their infantile lives, and their fears of penetrating more deeply were limiting their progress. Even Ernest Jones wrote to Freud about the benefits of not waiting. He wanted to engage the neuroses while they were "still in a plastic state, than after the mind has become set and organized on an unhealthy basis and at great cost." He deftly avoided saying that Melanie Klein was analyzing his children, to spare Freud's feelings.

Sigmund Freud responded by disavowing Anna's theories as well as Melanie's, especially her theories of an independent super-ego in younger children. In terms of the superego, he agreed more with Anna. "I would like to contradict Mrs. Klein in this point, that she regards the super-ego of the children [to be] as independent as that of adults while it appears to me that Anna is right in emphasizing that the infantile superego is still under the direct influence of the parents." Anna then responded with her own papers on connecting to the Oedipus Complex in the classical timeline.

In the end, both theorists claimed results in their methods. Certainly there are similarities despite differences in the timeline. Both theorists explain emotional investment as a build up of tension and then a release, like the sex act. Anna emphasizes skill development, which Melanie wants the child to do more on their own accord, and this may be a weakness in that the child cannot always be counted on to develop any of the requisite skills to deal with life's challenges. After an interpretation in the Kleinian method, some children do go into their own searches for solutions in their family life, and let go of rumination at the same time. Anna's weakness could be that the education from the analyst may impose too many restrictions on the child and make them dependent on the analyst, like a parent or teacher. Also, the analyst may not know the child or parents well enough to make those decisions, so in many circumstances it would be better to let the child make their own determinations, especially when it comes to hobbies and interests.

Children, like adults, all have desires and are affected by obstacles and frustrations that stand in the way. This is true in the early days of an infant's life as well as throughout adolescence and adulthood. Rumination is let go of when there's discharge and venting, but especially when problems are solved and put behind oneself. Otto Rank was criticized for his birthing pains theory, but his acceptance of a meditative response is very instructive in that it can help to save energy. Venting has its limits if there are no solutions to problems. Endless venting may result in a lack of tact in social situations. Some problems also cannot be solved, so a certain amount of letting go of endless interpretations can save energy that is more needed in the arena of skill development. A daily meditation practice that goes along with work, to check in on one's breath and to relax any unnecessary tension, to let the breath move on it's own, can clearly demarcate attachment and resistance in the Buddhist way, but also in the psychoanalytic way, one can see the beginnings of wasted energy when thoughts begin to dwell on unnecessary topics or on things that cannot be controlled. Venting, on the other hand, can then be more appropriate when there are severe shocks and misfortunes. Part of the reason why venting is so helpful is that it's part of a grieving process where a misfortune cannot be changed, so the patient can exhaust emotions in grieving until acceptance arises naturally. In situations where it would better to face problems and solve them in a practical way, a more constructive and active approach is efficacious. Helene Deutsch also noted that all desires always end in larger or smaller depressions, so the child may not necessarily be autotelic enough to just quickly pick up new goals to regulate emotions. They may not think that this is what is needed and be stuck in depression. Goals can also be tiring, and a meditative rest is desirable for a burnt out psyche. On the other hand, both Melanie and Anna supported a resilience and persistence with Ego in some cases, because being intolerant of delays in gratification would limit skill development. It isn't always skills that should be analyzed, but also goals. Many goals are futile, and therapeutically helping the patient let go of those types of goals is a way to teach the patients on how to be autonomous and use their own agency to make choices without the need for added suggestions, education, or more analysis.

Object Relations: Otto Rank Pt. 1: https://rumble.com/v1gvrq9-object-relations-otto-rank-pt.-1.html

Object Relations: Otto Rank Pt 2: https://rumble.com/v1gvsf5-object-relations-otto-rank-pt-2.html

Object Relations: Helene Deutsch Pt. 1: https://rumble.com/v2wrvg5-object-relations-helene-deutsch-pt.-1.html

Object Relations: Helene Deutsch Pt. 2: https://rumble.com/v2yepky-object-relations-helene-deutsch-pt.-2.html

In the text, Freud-Klein Controversies, the British Psychoanalytic Society saw the danger of the different methods splintering into their own schools with autocratic leaders and administrators punishing heretics, like in Freud's own circle, so they intelligently agreed on a compromise where people just joining the association could choose among three avenues. There was still some control over theoretical divergences, but the flexibility allowed for new advancements. "The Kleinians were organized around Melanie Klein’s contributions to theory and technique, the Viennese or ‘B’ group, as it was called, around the approach to psychoanalysis and technique supported by Anna Freud and her colleagues, while the 'Middle' group (later referred to as 'Independents') carried on the tradition and technique of the indigenous Members of the British Society, while maintaining their right to learn from all reasonable sources of knowledge."

There were a lot of competing theories around at this time on how to be a good analyst. Those criticizing Klein offered that Kleinian analysts didn't express their emotions enough so a rapport with the patient couldn't develop. The lack of social reassurance and physical contact created a non-therapeutic atmosphere. Despite this aloofness, critics also felt that Kleinians were too active paradoxically, and didn't allow the patient to do more of the insight work themselves. The most common complaint, which is leveled at all psychoanalysts, is the invasiveness of interpretation. Critics felt that interpretations alienate clients so their personal story remains buried under theory. Negative feelings were also a bone of contention, since many people look at therapy as a way to become happier. Those types of critics were more interested in the role that love plays in Melanie's theories than the dark side she explored. The worry was that negative thinking would be habituated. Exploration takes a long time in psychoanalysis, and so cognitive behavior therapists felt that they were more efficient by just focusing on conscious thinking, and by clarifying distortions there, many of the same results would manifest, and in some cases, there are even better results because clearer thinking improves thinking skills directly so the client could apply those very skills immediately after therapy. Because psychotherapy focuses on the past, both patients and cognitive behavioral therapists often wanted to focus more on the future, since that is the only place where opportunities for change emerge. As important as transference was, critics felt that it could be interpreted too much and not always reflect accurately. Not everything needs to be traced back to the primal scene in family life. Finally, many patients simply have skill deficits and nothing will improve until they are addressed.

In response to these criticisms, Kleinians felt that expressing their own emotions too much would interfere with the transference, since the goal of the analyst is to be a screen to land on, for projections from the patient to reveal themselves. As pointed out in Part 2, patients are bringing their current level of social skills and predictions, so they can't help but demonstrate these to an analyst that is a blank canvass at the beginning of therapy. When it comes to being social and physically welcoming, Kleinians are more comfortable with a friendly, non-judgmental attitude, because without dealing with underlying problems you are still stuck in a surface situation like in any other. Any therapeutic hugging or petting risks being too shallow and ineffective in the long run. Kleinian interpretations may seem too active, but as they relieve stress bit by bit, the therapy is actually progressing in depth. By also interpreting negative feelings, a lot more information could be discovered with negative transferences. Those insights further relieve anxiety for the analysand and allow a natural opening for love and a positive transference to arise, like a sunny day after the clouds disperse. Like in meditation, love is considered something that is naturally there but covered over with rumination. This means that negativity is not actually being strengthened but instead it's being understood. With strong supportive internal objects in the mind through positive transference with the analyst, the need for psychoanalysts to be just a teacher of skills can then offload that responsibility to patients, who will probably want to do it themselves and enjoy the pleasure of making their own choices. The future is also important for Kleinians, but without dealing with the past it is likely that habits will repeat themselves regardless of the skills taught. If teaching skills was all you needed then you could just replace therapists with a trainer. Finally, if cognitive therapy and clear thinking was all that was needed, how do they deal with behavior that is unconsciously driven?

The mind's creative expression

Because the unconscious is a very intuitive place, where in real time experience ideas pop out of nowhere, it made sense that Klein would want to explore creativity and play as it pertains to child psychology. From her point of view, play was just another language that could describe the inner world of a patient, and transference itself is a kind of creativity, where you take the inner world and make it manifest in the outer world. From Klein's point of view, both methods can expose the current skill level of patients, which includes their arsenal of reactions that are used when there are obstacles or there is a delay in gratification. How do they adapt to reality? "At a very early age children become acquainted with reality through the deprivations which it imposes on them. They defend themselves against reality by repudiating it." One of the markers of a good adaptation to reality is if the analysand has enough patience to tolerate how things are. "...One of the final results to be attained is successful adaptation to reality. One way in which this shows itself in children is in the modification of the difficulties encountered in their education. In other words, such children have become capable of tolerating real deprivations." The earliest deprivation for psychoanalysts of all stripes is being able to tolerate the Oedipus Complex.

As children grow up, through many weaning processes, they have to gradually become more independent and choose ever more appropriate relationship choices all the way up to adulthood, and somehow make a satisfactory final choice. For most parents, they want a heterosexual result with the opportunity to have grandchildren, so they can watch the inheritance they leave behind, to bring solace to the last years of their lives. It's their stamp of immortality. How typically people find new object choices is by being disappointed with the current one, for one reason or another, and then trading up for the next available person who appears more sympathetic or helpful. For adults, this can be good if the current object choice is pathological and dangerous, but it could be frivolous if they underrate their current choice. This often appears after a disappointment and then love transfers to another object-choice based on the lifestyle they provide, as well as an initial flattery and a welcoming flirtatiousness. Prospective partners need some skill at seduction. In fact, this mechanism can be exploited in toxic relationships, which starts with "love-bombing," and a welcoming with slutty demonstrations, but sooner or later, the adult who traded up will have to experience deprivations again as normal life resumes. They now have to decide if they made a mistake or not. Whether you call it "grooming" or conditioning, even an adult mind can be hacked easily, because most people react unconsciously to ALL flattery in a positive way. Even ugly people can appear sexy if they show signals that you are free to go all in and use them as you will. Though, a cold mechanistic feeling may arise if the relationship has no authentic connection beyond flattery. It requires some life experience, including about typical love triangles, and reflection to see beyond the warm and fuzzy feelings.

The Lovebomb - Narcdaily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh9SXcJnILk

Daft Punk - Instant Crush (Video) ft. Julian Casablancas: https://youtu.be/a5uQMwRMHcs?si=cZxxiaFy_yNx6KKw

Rick Springfield - Jessie's Girl: https://youtu.be/qYkbTyHXwbs?si=bEdxRXzEIRczVUeO

New Order - Bizarre Love Triangle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkOr12AQpnU

For children, they instead do this in their restricted environment with their nuclear family. "In a number of children's analyses I discovered that the little girl's choice of the father as love-object ensued on weaning. This deprivation, which is followed by the training in cleanliness (a process which presents itself to the child as a new and grievous withdrawal of love), loosens the bond to the mother and brings into operation the heterosexual attraction, reinforced by the father's caresses, which are now construed as a seduction...On the other hand, however, the oral and anal deprivation of love [by the father's competition] appears to promote the development of the Oedipus situation in boys, for it compels them to change their libido-position and to desire the mother as a genital love-object." So for more heterosexual boys, they get jealous of the attention that the mother gets from the father and their rivalry makes the mother a stronger object choice. That then loosens because of it's inappropriateness and the boy then has to find a mother replacement, especially since the bond between mother and father is mutual and aligned more often. The heterosexual girl is in the same situation and has to find a father replacement. The united parents for the children provide the most potent relationship template, and the children will likely soak up identifications and repeat that template throughout their lives, especially if this is done with zero awareness of psychology. The influence of encouragement and discouragement can also go throughout life with people trading up and playing people off of each other. People who are rejected by others are discouraged by them, and make a transference to others who look similar, like having a similar personality, sex, or sexual orientation. Their similarities trigger a negative response, or transference, to the old situation. People who find candidates who apply flattery, act slutty, welcoming, and non-judgmental, they will have a strong feeling of encouragement. The mind is always looking for replacements in desires, and if it can't find it in one place, it will consider other options and possibilities. There's also the influence of lifestyle, where providers and nurturers of all different kinds are trying to meet up in whatever combination can be found. People can also adjust their contribution as a provider or nurturer depending on the vicissitudes of life as they happen. Sometimes people have to switch roles.

The Oedipus Complex now can be seen as the sum total of the reactions and inhibitions that arise when there are human obstacles to wish-fulfillments, goals and desires. It doesn't stop with parents, as René Girard pointed out, and some people are stuck with endlessly perceived challenges and obstacles, and will be attempting to trade up for their entire lives. All these psychoanalysts also had to accept that children have different constitutional dispositions and may respond to the same shocks differently. "I cannot determine whether it is neurotic children whom the early working of the Oedipus complex affects so intensely, or if children become neurotic when this complex sets in too soon." Children absorb their parental and familial role models and reenact their behaviors and also internally control their own minds with the same introjected personalities. This process starts with incorporation, which is a sampling of what is good and bad in the limited environment of the person, then it goes into introjection, which is a preference found in said environments, and then a habit of introjection of the same actions can turn into an identification, which phenomenologically appears as an image of oneself as the main agent acting in the world, devoid of the role models that supplied the earlier influences. Lesser identifications down the line may include more images of people who influenced you and a psychological distance between self and internal object is seen more clearly. If one has a meditation practice, and it is used for internal reflection, one can catch oneself, for example, imitating a way of speaking from another person, and you may see an image of that person while you're speaking in their same manner and accent. With a strong identification, that image of the role model doesn't appear and it feels like your sense of self. This is why imitation can be a sly and unconscious process. If you didn't invent something that you feel is the real you, you can improve clarity by asking "where did I imitate this from?"

The Origin of Envy & Narcissism - René Girard: https://rumble.com/v1gsnwv-the-origin-of-envy-and-narcissism-ren-girard.html

Our role-modeling goes beyond speaking and can permeate our play, which is why authenticity is more connected with culture than many of us are willing to accept, and has more to do with our current skill levels on how to deal with obstacles and challenges, and the zeal or taste we can sense when we can see our way through obstacles successfully. If people are open enough as adults, they need to look at how their wish-fulfillments are almost 100% taken from family and culture, and any originality has more to do with original mixes of those influences. Play is another illuminating method for children to reenact what they copied in their household and it provides clues for the analyst as to how developed the child is. Skills = Development. They also point to those original influences that have gone under the radar of the analysand, as well as unresolved negative emotions. "A fundamental and universal mechanism in the game of acting a part serves to separate those different identifications at work in the child which are tending to form a single whole. By the division of roles the child succeeds in expelling the father and mother whom, in the elaboration of the Oedipus complex, it has absorbed into itself and who are now tormenting it inwardly by their severity. The result of this expulsion is a sensation of relief which contributes in great measure to the pleasure derived from the game. Though this game of acting often appears quite simple and seems to represent only primary identifications, this is only the surface appearance. To penetrate behind this appearance is of great importance in the analysis of children. It can, however, have its full therapeutic effect only if the investigation reveals all the underlying identifications and determinations and, above all, if we have found our way to the sense of guilt which is here at work."

For Melanie, guilt is more powerful in the child, because the ego is too weak to accept mistakes and come up with adult solutions, but if the therapeutic result is achieved in child analysis, the child's nascent ego can now handle things at the appropriate level that the child is expected to be at. "As the analysis of children teaches us, we strengthen that ego when the analytic procedure curbs the excessive demands of the super-ego. There can be no doubt that the ego of little children differs from that of older children or of adults, but, when we have freed the little child's ego from neurosis, it proves perfectly equal to such demands of reality as it encounters demands as yet less serious than those made upon adults." Children of course have limitations on what they can do, because they have many years of education ahead of them. "Children cannot change the circumstances of their lives, as adults often do at the end of an analysis. But a child has been very greatly helped if, as a result of analysis, we enable him to feel more at ease in the existing circumstances and to develop better. Moreover, the clearing-up of neurosis in children often diminishes the difficulties of their milieu. For instance, I have repeatedly proved that the mother's reactions were much less neurotic when favourable changes took place in her children after analysis." The child begins to project, or predict accurately the behavior of parents, and is now not surprised or vexed. Interpretations help to understand reality so the thinking becomes less distorted and children know what to expect, which is important because inaccurate expectations usually lead to stress and rumination. Expectation is stressful because it has a mental element of control, which is felt as an exertion, especially when expectations are dashed. Expectations met are encouraging, and disappointments are discouraging, or inhibiting. If the children know better how to respond to situations, then rumination decreases in daily life. Even more of a prophylaxis is if the child can prevent a pathological secret from developing in the mind, and learn skills so as to avoid being in highly shameful situations.

Object Relations: Melanie Klein Pt. 2: https://rumble.com/v435lsq-object-relations-melanie-klein-pt.-2.html

When interpretations are done well, the child saves energy from the rumination found in the severe super-ego, and that translates into happier play and it creates a positive transference with the analyst that now appears so helpful. "The pleasure in play, which visibly ensues after an interpretation has been given, is also due to the fact that the expenditure necessitated by a repression is no longer required after the interpretation. But soon we once more encounter resistances for a time, and here matters are no longer made easy in the way I have described. In fact, at such times we have to wrestle with very great difficulties. This is especially the case when we encounter the sense of guilt." Guilt is difficult for a child as it is for an adult, because if there's any perfectionism and a lack of acceptance towards mistakes, the self-preoccupation continues unabated as a low self-esteem and can begin a masochistic streak in the patient. Developing a learning mentality is crucial for parenting to be successful and helps to avoid pathological secrets from developing and metastasizing in behaviors.

As noted in prior reviews, any of these feelings of guilt are usually about traumatic or embarrassing sexual encounters, early masturbation that was punished, or the result of severe conflicts with others. The tension and discharge in sexuality inevitably moves into any tension and discharge with regular activities. If the embarrassment and guilt is connected with sexuality, and any other forms of passionate exploration in play and hobbies, it can stunt the growth of a child. They freeze at a particular level until a learning mentality is discovered, usually after a surrender and acceptance of imperfection in the self. If children freeze they will not be able to make any more approaches towards challenges. This is why Melanie focused on the Oedipus Complex to try and get an awareness to appear in the child through interpretations. "Inhibitions in play and in learning have their origin in an exaggerated repression of these phantasies and, with them, of all phantasy. Sexual experiences are associated with the masturbation-phantasies and, with these, find representation and abreaction [catharsis/discharge] in play. Amongst the experiences dramatized, representations of the primal scene play a prominent part and they regularly appear in the foreground of the analyses of young children. It is only after a considerable amount of analysis, which has partially revealed the primal scene and the genital development, that we come on representations of pregenital experiences and phantasies...Consistent interpretations, gradual solving of resistances and persistent tracing of the transference to earlier situations, these constitute in children as in adults the correct analytic situation." Again one sees a learning mentality being trained in the child, which brings awareness to the child of how the brain functions and provides the live-and-let-live experience of self-forgiveness and self-belief that one can try again next time and develop more appropriate behaviors. A sympathetic analyst can also provide a non-judgmental atmosphere that expects children to learn from mistakes and not constantly freeze in self-preoccupation and perfectionism. They have to understand that development is what human life is all about and that no human is born fully formed.

Guilt can also be connected with hatred for the human obstacles in one's life and lead to scapegoating, even if the victims are only toys. This can appear in play unconsciously, but if an interpretation is accurate enough, it can point to the real struggles that are looking for solutions, release, and freedom. "For instance, children begin to distinguish between the 'pretense' mother and the real mother and between the wooden baby-doll and the live baby brother. They then firmly insist that they wanted to do this or that injury to the toy baby, only the real baby, they say, of course they love. Only when very powerful and long-standing resistances have been overcome do children realize that their aggressive acts were directed against the real objects. When this admission is made, however, the result; even in quite little children, is generally a notable step forward in adaptation to reality...It has always been my experience that the effects of such knowledge, gradually elaborated, is in fact to relieve the child, to establish a fundamentally more favourable relation to the parents and thus to increase its power of social adaptation."

Beyond a simple education to tell the child what is right and what is wrong, Melanie wanted the children to reason things out through the consequences of their phantasies in their inner worlds. They unconsciously want to do something bad, but when made conscious, they see more clearly that they would prefer to try something else more appropriate. "When this has taken place children also are quite able to replace repression to some extent by reasoned rejection. We see this from the fact that at a later stage of the analysis children have advanced so far from various anal-sadistic or cannibalistic cravings (which at an earlier stage were still so powerful) that they can now at times adopt an attitude of humorous criticism towards them. When this happens I hear even very little children making jokes to the effect, for instance, that some time ago they really wanted to eat up their mummy or cut her into bits. When this change takes place, not only is the sense of guilt inevitably lessened, but at the same time the children are enabled to sublimate the wishes which previously were wholly repressed. This manifests itself in practice in the disappearance of inhibitions in play and in a beginning of numerous interests and activities." They accept that they are a kid and that they are growing and learning. They can laugh at themselves, because it's a part of their development. This is also one of the ways to alleviate that compulsion to repeat, where a patient repeats their bad experiences because they haven't really learned how to regulate their emotions to move to another level. The important realization for all patients is to see that there is more love and connection when one takes on attitudes and actions that make it easier for others to do the same. In fact, when patients start seeing ways in which they can be more harmonious with others, that is a successful pathway after a bout of analysis.

In each child, there are different manifestations of a severe super-ego. In one patient, Erna, it was a more paranoid one. "In her play Erna often made me be a child, while she was the mother or a teacher. I then had to undergo fantastic tortures and humiliations. If in the game anyone treated me kindly, it generally turned out that the kindness was only simulated. The paranoiac traits showed in the fact that I was constantly spied upon, people divined my thoughts, and the father or teacher allied themselves with the mother against me, in fact I was always surrounded with persecutors. I myself in the role of the child, had constantly to spy upon and torment the others. Often Erna herself played the part of the child. Then the game generally ended in her escaping the persecutions (on these occasions the 'child' was good), becoming rich and powerful, being made a queen and taking a cruel revenge on her persecutors. After her sadism had spent itself in these phantasies, apparently unchecked by any inhibition (all this came about after we had done a good deal of analysis), reaction would set in in the form of deep depression, anxiety and bodily exhaustion. Her play then reflected her incapacity to bear this tremendous oppression, which manifested itself in a number of serious symptoms. In this child's phantasies all the roles engaged could be fitted into one formula, that of two principal parts: the persecuting super-ego and the id or ego, as the case might be, threatened, but by no means less cruel." Exhaustion keeps coming back as long as the pathological responses to family and the community are not resolved and understood, and also because resistance and stress is exhausting, full stop.

When children feel helpless, they begin to proactively take the place of the powerful one that made them feel so vulnerable. "In these games the wish-fulfilment lay principally in Erna's endeavour to identify herself with the stronger party, in order thus to master her dread of persecution. The hard-pressed ego tried to influence or deceive the super-ego, in order to prevent its overpowering the id, as it threatened to do. The ego tried to enlist the highly sadistic id in the service of the super-ego and to make the two combine in the fight with a common enemy. This necessitated extensive use of the mechanisms of projection and displacement. When Erna played the part of the cruel mother, the naughty child was the enemy; when she herself was the child who was persecuted but soon became powerful, the enemy was represented by the wicked parents. In each case there was a motive, which the ego attempted to render plausible to the super-ego, for indulging in unrestrained sadism. By the terms of this 'compact' the super-ego was to take action against the enemy as though against the id. The id, however, in secret, continued to pursue its predominantly sadistic gratification, the objects being the primal ones. Such narcissistic satisfaction as accrued to the ego through its victory over foes both without and within helped also to appease the super-ego and thus was of considerable value in diminishing anxiety."

So in this case, the child needed an excuse for the super-ego to accept the sadistic id so that it could be discharged in aggression while the ego is being morally supported by that same super-ego. Roleplaying can illuminate if there is serious fragmentation in the psyche when the patient doesn't have a core self and is just acting out endless roles in daily life. It means that the same ego, and superego, which need the energy of the id, or desire, can attack itself and others, draining energy, becoming entangled in internal personality contradictions, and covering over the potential mental peace that could be had in more harmonious relationships with self and other. The cost of course was the exhaustion that Erna felt. "...in Erna's case it broke down completely because of the excessive sadism of both id and super-ego. Thereupon the ego joined forces with the super-ego and tried by punishing the id to extract a certain gratification, but this in its turn was inevitably a failure. Reactions of intense anxiety and remorse set in again and again, showing that none of these contradictory wish-fulfilments could be sustained for long." This leads eventually to an adaption to reality, to abandon unrealistic wish-fulfillments, or it can lead to psychosis where the dreaming takes over as well as draining internal conflicts. In an obsession example, in another case study, the child persisted in rituals that didn't function in reality, which is also exhausting and another waste of energy. Melanie also noticed that some children had more or less helpful imagos, which could be examples to strengthen and condition in the child. Those positive imagos can provide a sense of autonomy, and self-reliance, especially if they are hopeful, helpful, practical, and realistic, like the adults who have already modeled those positive behaviors for the child. The more severe the pathology, the more resistant the old behaviors are to treatment, leading to more repetition. These frozen states of being can manifest themselves at differing levels of development and remain into adulthood.

Throughout development, there is a pressure for the ego to take on the different identifications imitated from all the different role models in the child's life and to fuse them into a cohesive personality. "The more extreme and sharply contrasting the imagos, the less successful will be the synthesis and the more difficult will it be to maintain it. The excessively strong influence exerted by these extreme types of imagos, the intensity of the need for the kindly figures in opposition to the menacing, the rapidity with which allies will change into enemies (which is also the reason why the wish-fulfilment in play so often breaks down) all this indicates that the process of synthesizing the identifications has failed. This failure manifests itself in the ambivalence, the tendency to anxiety, the lack of stability or the readiness with which this is overthrown, and the defective relation to reality characteristic of neurotic children. The necessity for a synthesis of the super-ego arises out of the difficulty experienced by the subject in coming to an understanding with a super-ego made up of imagos of such opposite natures. When the latency period sets in and the demands of reality are increased, the ego makes even greater efforts to effect a synthesis of the super-ego, in order that on this basis a balance may be struck between super-ego, id and reality[-ego]." A meditation example of this would be to use the present-moment-ego to follow the breath and use the breath as an anchor while setting up goals and knocking them down. Different super-ego personalities may interrupt the good intentions of the ego and send one into a repetitive cycle of regression with archaic personality goals. It would manifest as a feeling of a comfort zone that prevents development. The different personalities and their weaknesses would manifest different types of internal distractions, like with examples above of obsession or paranoia. Each person has to see what their particular problem is. A wholistic personality, in ideal circumstances, has less internal battles. Since the id is desire without a cultural example to imitate, it is flexible precisely because of that. If you have wish-fulfillments that conflict with each other, because you have conflicting role models in your life and culture, you'll have super-ego reactions that want to punish other super-ego tendencies, which leads the id to wasting more energy. If the ego can pursue goals that do not trip up the conscience of any of the super-ego internal role models, then a feeling of unity and consolidation can be felt. This is felt in the amount of peace that manifests.

The value of play is further seen when the child's projections manifest in how the toys are used, and the splitting is readily apparent when certain toys are treated with more or less antagonism or cooperation. A toy becomes either all good or all bad. Projections appear in play and the child can then find satisfaction that cannot be found in the real world. Maybe the evil toy gets their way. Maybe in another battle, good wins out. "By their means the synthesis of the super-ego, which can be maintained only with more or less effort, can be given up for the time being and, further, the tension of maintaining the truce between the super-ego as a whole and the id is diminished. The intrapsychic conflict, thus becomes less violent and can be displaced into the external world." Anxiety, guilt and stress can then be emotionally released in the play, like an adult being caught up in a good movie. Ultimately, no amount of entertainment or play will replace realistic solutions, so the best forms of art will solve a problem in a way that an audience member can see how it would work for themselves. Play can also be a way to think through a problem and try out different responses until an optimum one appears. "...Every step forward in adaptation to reality involved the releasing of large quantities of anxiety and the stronger repression of phantasies. It was always a great advance in the analysis when this repression was, in its turn, lifted and the phantasies became free as well as more closely linked with reality." Adaptation described here is to see the pathological skills come out of the unconscious, be made conscious, discharge emotionally along with the understanding, then in ideal situations, the child may start to look for better solutions so that the phantasies can begin to conform to reality and increase both external and internal harmony.

Children as they develop can then separate their play into fiction and non-fiction. By having both forms of tension and release, there's more opportunity for more flexible children to find gratification in life with play and responsibility. Responsibility also has a belief in oneself, a confidence, and self-efficacy, that one can achieve goals in life. "Normal children are able to master reality in better ways. Their play shows that they have more power to influence and live out reality in conformity with their phantasies. Moreover, where they cannot alter the real situation they are better able to bear it, because their freer phantasy provides them with a refuge from it and also because the fuller discharge that they have for their masturbation-phantasies in an ego-syntonic form (play and other sublimations) gives them greater opportunities of gratification." So simply, it's not just love and work, but play as well.

As distortion in the super-ego decreases, the good and evil in mental objects begins to be more realistic, so the underrated becomes conscious as well as the overrated in people. "...The analyst must simply be a medium in relation to whom the different imagos can be activated and the phantasies lived through, in order to be analysed. When the child in his play directly assigns to him certain roles, the task of the children's analyst is clear...With children as well as with adults, we have to infer from the analytic situation and material the details of the hostile role attributed to us, which the patient indicates through the negative transference. Now what is true of personification in its open form I have found to be also indispensable for the more disguised and obscure forms of the personifications underlying transference. The analyst who wishes to penetrate to the earliest, anxiety-inspiring imagos, i.e. to strike at the roots of the super-ego's severity, must have no preference for any particular role; he must accept that which comes to him from the analytic situation." This can be a little scary, considering how traumatized many kids are, but Melanie made a compromise. "When children ask me to play parts which are too difficult or disagreeable I meet their wishes by saying that I am 'pretending I am doing it.'" Empathy for Melanie becomes a hallmark of development. "In ontogenetic development sadism is overcome when the subject advances to the genital level. The more powerfully this phase sets in, the more capable does the child become of object-love, and the more able is he to conquer his sadism by means of pity and sympathy." So when children can empathize with others, meaning they can love others, and themselves, that object-choice is going to be more healthy because of the reduced sadism. You're not going to be taking things out on them, and you don't expect perfection from them.

When it came to the use of toys, Melanie wanted the toy to dictate less what kinds of games would be played and instead require the child to use their projections to make them what they will and more clearly take on different roles that exist in the child's real life. "I believe that the toys provided by the analyst should on the whole be of the type I have described, that is to say, simple, small, and non-mechanical...In such games the child frequently takes the part of the adult, thereby not only expressing his wish to reverse the roles but also demonstrating how he feels that his parents or other people in authority behave towards him—or should behave. Sometimes he gives vent to his aggressiveness and resentment by being, in the role of parent, sadistic towards the child, represented by the analyst."

The aggressiveness may lead to damaged toys which can create a sense of guilt in the child over what they might do to their family members. Interpretations that connect the destructiveness to the reality of home life bring the sense of consciousness to the problem and an opportunity to see reality more closely, that the object was underrated, and bring possible solutions to more adapt to the reality of those relationships. A reparation. Everything about reparation is about adapting to reality and changing tactics when one method or another doesn't work. It's for repairing relationships. "Feelings of guilt may very soon follow after the child has broken, for instance, a little figure. Such guilt refers not only to the actual damage done but to what the toy stands for in the child's unconscious, e.g. a little brother or sister, or a parent; the interpretation has therefore to deal with these deeper levels as well. Sometimes we can gather from the child's behaviour towards the analyst that not only guilt but also persecutory anxiety has been the sequel to his destructive impulses and that he is afraid of retaliation...By then we have been able to analyse some important defences, thus diminishing persecutory feelings and making it possible for the sense of guilt and the urge to make reparation to be experienced...Reparation in this sense is a wider concept than Freud's concepts of 'undoing in the obsessional neurosis' and of 'reaction-formation'. For it includes the variety of processes by which the ego feels it undoes harm done in phantasy, restores, preserves and revives objects. The importance of this tendency, bound up as it is with feelings of guilt, also lies in the major contribution it makes to all sublimations, and in this way to mental health." And for those who feel that Melanie Klein pursues the darkness too much, one can easily see a danger if the darkness is not approached and unconscious reactions are left to play out in life. In the real world, a toy dismemberment can translate to murder and dismemberment in actuality. Perusing any crime stories or stories of war, one can see dehumanization, which is to make humans into pests, to make it easier for the super-ego to accept murder. A populace that engages in little reflection and is easily slighted will have consequences in predictable violence, kleptomania, and genocide.

Another criticism against Klein's therapy modality has to do with the capacity of the child to understand. "'Are young children intellectually able to understand such interpretations?' My own experience and that of my colleagues has been that if the interpretations relate to the salient points in the material, they are fully understood. Of course the child analyst must give his interpretations as succinctly and as clearly as possible, and should also use the child's expressions in doing so. But if he translates into simple words the essential points of the material presented to him, he gets into touch with those emotions and anxieties which are most operative at the moment; the child's conscious and intellectual understanding is often a subsequent process. One of the many interesting and surprising experiences of the beginner in child analysis is to find in even very young children a capacity for insight which is often far greater than that of adults. To some extent this is explained by the fact that the connections between conscious and unconscious are closer in young children than in adults, and that infantile repressions are less powerful. I also believe that the infant's intellectual capacities are often underrated and that in fact he understands more than he is credited with."

Because Melanie analyzed children as far back as she could go she felt that object relations were almost always there, and for any child that doesn't remember their birth, the reality is that they are becoming aware of their connections with others and developing enough of a memory and story of their lives which can't exist without object relations. "I found that object relations start almost at birth and arise with the first feeding experience; furthermore, that all aspects of mental life are bound up with object relations. It also emerged that the child's experience of the external world, which very soon includes his ambivalent relation to his father and to other members of his family, is constantly influenced by—and in turn influences—the internal world he is building up, and that external and internal situations are always interdependent, since introjection [to take in what is desirable] and projection [a defense] operate side by side from the beginning of life."

The mind is already reacting to the good and the bad experiences at the beginning of life, with splitting judgments of good and bad, then integration of the good and bad in objects help the judgments match reality more accurately, which is the insight that humans display a variety of good and bad behaviors within the same person. Eventually a feeling of wanting to take care of imperfect people, the feeling of pity, empathy, and sadness develops, kind of like seeing the good and the bad in people, but also witnessing their weak skills and behaviors with a non-reactivity and sympathy as to their imperfect attempts at managing life. They may hurt people sometimes, but they often mean well. Even if these experiences start early in life, they are reintroduced again and again with more and more added depth and complexity found in adults. "The conclusion to be drawn from the experience that depressive anxiety arises as a result of the ego synthesizing the good and bad (loved and hated) aspects of the object led me in turn to the concept of the depressive position which reaches its climax towards the middle of the first year. It is preceded by the paranoid position, which extends over the first three or four months of life and is characterized by persecutory anxiety and splitting processes."

As Melanie advanced her theories further, by adding a lot of material from younger and younger patients, a new more independent category of analyst was beginning to dawn: Those who were eclectic and integrative enough to not care what school a theory comes from, but only care that those theories explain real situations.

The end of the German Republic

In the lead up to World War II, Melanie's idea of being in England or the United States, was starting to be a good idea for other Jewish intellectuals looking for a safe haven. Repudiation of Judaism in Germany included even secular Jews. NAZIS were socialist, in that they attacked capitalists, but they preferred public coercion of the private sector as opposed to Marxist ideas of total government ownership, though many people found not much difference in totalitarian methods because all these labels cover the same power dynamic, where a powerful group of people give orders and everyone with less power has to obey, and this included rejection and retaliation towards supposed "thought crimes." The kinds of books that were burned or banned in the German example included non-affiliated socialist books, any books that were considered decadent or perceived as undermining NAZI prerogatives. Any books that supported social justice and wanted to improve working conditions were targeted. Naturally, Jewish authors' books, like the books of Albert Einstein and Sigmund Freud, went up in flames. Even Ernest Hemingway's and Helen Keller's books were not spared. "The first group of German-Jewish analysts from Berlin had begun arriving in Britain in 1933 after the Reichstag fire...The passing of the monstrous Nuremberg Laws, which deprived Jews of citizenship, forbade marriage between Jews and Aryans, and barred Jews from the liberal professions, made 1935 a crucial year...Eitingon had gone to Palestine. Erich’s former analyst, Clare Happel, settled in Chicago, as did Hans’s analyst, Ernst Simmel, before moving on to California. Melitta’s original analyst, Karen Horney, had already moved to New York; and Helene Deutsch, who had always regarded Melanie as a rival, was by 1934 establishing orthodox analysis in Boston. Klein’s old enemies in Berlin, Franz Alexander and Sándor Radó, settled respectively in Chicago and New York...By 1938 one-third of the analysts in the British Society were from the Continent. A comparison of the 1937 and 1938 membership lists shows the number of new names that were added—Bibring, Eidelberg, Hitschmann, Hoffer, Isakower, Kris, Lantos, Stengel, Schur, Stross, Sachs, Straub—and of course Sigmund and Anna Freud."

Book Burning - Holocaust Encyclopedia: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/book-burning

Book Burnings in Germany - PBS: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/goebbels-burnings/

With the arrival of the Freuds Melanie was in a panic that she would soon lose her cocoon. "'It will never be the same again,' Melanie Klein lamented to Winnicott. 'This is a disaster.'" After being an early champion of Melanie, Ernest Jones was already beginning to retreat into an ambivalence between the two schools of psychoanalysis, especially after Anna Freud's The Ego and the Mechanisms of Defence was released. Other analysts were also making their choices and aligning with more conservative views or accepting some of the updates that Melanie was proposing, like the theory of internal objects. Many others, like John Bowlby remained independent.

Those escaping fascism found English people more tolerant and they enjoyed the beautiful walkways and parks in contrast to the chaos of banishment and war, but they still suffered from confusion and homesickness after being uprooted. The Vienna and Berlin cultures were also refined up to the hilt, but now regressing to a barbarism. Even advanced societies can lose their freedoms. Both Anna and Melanie started separating their clients based on their different theories. Anna felt that those "who had been analyzed or otherwise trained by analysts holding different views would not be likely to benefit from her teaching." Sigmund Freud was very ill at this time and he gave his blessing before his death that London should now be the center of Psychoanalysis. Over time the divisions between the two schools gave way to some back and forth where the education side of the theories could reduce confusion and a synergy could develop where new analysts could pick and choose which parts of which theory they liked and discard what they didn't. Those interested in younger children, and the promise that psychoanalysis could nip any problems in the bud, so to say, would naturally be curious about Melanie's ideas, and those who felt that older children, adolescents, and adults, was where the action really took place, and because they are easier to communicate with, would prefer more orthodox methods.

Love, Guilt and Reparation: And Works 1921-1945 (The Writings of Melanie Klein, Volume 1) by Melanie Klein: https://www.isbns.net/isbn/9780743237659/

Envy and Gratitude and Other Works, 1946 - 1963 (2nd Edition) by Melanie Klein: https://www.isbns.net/isbn/9780743237758/

Melanie Klein: Her World and Her Work by Phyllis Grosskurth: https://www.isbns.net/isbn/9781568214450/

Freud-Klein Controversies - Pearl King, Riccardo Steiner: https://www.isbns.net/isbn/9780415082747/

Melanie Klein Dr Julia Segal: https://www.isbns.net/isbn/9780761943013/

The New Dictionary of Kleinian Thought by Elizabeth Bott Spillius, Jane E. Milton, Penelope Garvey, Cyril Couve, Deborah Steiner: https://www.isbns.net/isbn/9780415592598/

The Language of Psychoanalysis by Jean Laplanche, Jean-Bertrand Pontalis: https://www.isbns.net/isbn/9780367328139/

Psychology: http://psychreviews.org/category/psychology01/

#anna freud #castration anxiety #castrationcomplex #child psychology #creativity #depressive position #ego psychology #ernest jones #melanie klein #oedipus complex #paranoid-schizoid position #psychoanalysis #sigmund freud

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Indeed, what distinguishes Coco Chanel’s affect is her need to create women’s clothes that was each modern and practical, to inject ease and luxury into day-to-day style. chanel clothing Most notable in this vein is the Little Black Dress, described as the ‘Ford’ of clothes. Beyond the LBD, nevertheless, Chanel ensured that monochrome pervaded the brand’s image, from the packaging of a Chanel No.5 bottle to the unique 2.fifty five handbags in black leather and two-tone pumps in beige with a black toe. While she by no means shied away from brighter tones, her dedication to rendering outfits in black and white – magnificence without the frills – is an enduring legacy. During the German occupation of France, Chanel received concerned with a Nazi army officer, Hans Gunther von Dincklage. She obtained particular permission to stay in her apartment on the Hotel Ritz in Paris, which also operated as German army headquarters. Over the years, with No. 5 being an enormous source of revenue, she repeatedly sued to have the phrases of the deal renegotiated. Part of the proceeds of the public sale will go to Fondation des Femmes, a French charity for women affected by violence and abuse. 10 Inexpensive Manufacturers To Get The Chanel Look Most of the sellers are from China, but the wholesale items are shipped across the world. They settle for various payment strategies similar to a letter of credit score, T/T, Western Union, electronic check fee, PayPal, bank card, Master Card, and VISA. Sign as much as our newsletter to remain up to date with our latest provides, merchandise and designer news. This export and import wholesale/retail web site relies in Hong Kong however ships all over the world. The web site is a large wholesale platform and home to 94 of the a hundred topmost reliable wholesale sellers that promote globally. The on-line wholesale and retail platform did not gain 1,5 million international patrons identical to that. Years of glad and successful transactions made this occur. Dhgate can be thought of the premier designer replicas website because of the posh items that you just get corresponding to Gucci, LV reps, Chanel reps & more. The Chanel logo must also be raised, as opposed to being etched or printed on the bag. A large telling sign for us as regards to the chain strap was the stitching on the leather-based intertwined between the chain. On the authentic handbag (gold-tone hardware), you will note that the stitching is clear and seamless. Sandro is yet another French brand that I've sworn by for years. The quality is unmatched, and every merchandise looks like a wearable assertion piece. That is an ideal way of summing up Chanel's work on its clothes collections. If there's a designer accessories model that stands head and shoulders above the remainder, it’s Chanel. Now you can buy stunning Chanel dupes jewellery with out having to pay designer prices. Check out these Chanel CC necklace dupe models Amazing Gold CC emblem Luxury Necklaces Among the most effective ... Chanel’s clothes are also highly coveted and are known for his or her feminine and stylish designs. We encourage everybody to avoid duplicate outlets and pretend items. The Chanel 2.55 or the flap bag was the very first handbag designed by the model. The 2.55 Dupe’s supply the identical great appearance and really feel as the true bag for less than a fraction of the value. In an authentic Chanel bag, the lining fits snugly inside with no bumps. It is normally very troublesome to separate the liner from the bag. When we in contrast this to the reproduction, the liner was dishevelled and unfastened and intensely straightforward to pull out from the bag. You also can see how the reproduction bag (silver-tone hardware) folds extra from a birds-eye-view (it is thinner at the top). The chain straps also start additional back on the genuine model. You can see on the duplicate Chanel chain (silver-tone hardware), there is a double layer on the top flat a part of the leather. AliExpress has a piece referred to as Featured Brands the place you'll find some unimaginable reductions of great products. However, they're normally Chinese branded products, great brands are slowly coming into Aliexpress too. You simply get one shot of questioning an change and also you ought not to squander it if the seller is talking a extra drawn out time in delivery the merchandise. That is an easy method acquired by loads of retailers to protect them from question rising in a while. A few postings don’t say the model of the factor and some others could have indistinguishable spelling to a marked merchandise. Its collection of tailored workwear and tweed jackets rivals all of them. If the Chanel emblem or name is misspelled, you understand you're coping with a fake. It is well-known that Chanel is a so scorching model name, which you may be able to by no means deny. You can regularly see that many well-known feminine stars carrying Chanel footwear be current at various events. wikipedia handbags You need not to envy them anymore, since we are right here to offering you the most modern and comfy Chanel Shoes. You want an outfit that exudes the style of a trendy girl without compromising your comfort, so perhaps a CHANEL T-shirt for women is a good idea. The product is shipped only after you examine and approve the purchase. The reproduction Chanel baggage at DesChanel.nu aren't just identical in looks but in addition in durability and reliability. The luggage are sent out after every of the hardware confirms smooth and correct functioning. This is the DHgate Top Sellers List which replaces what was previously known as the trusted sellers list.

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