#faramir critical

[lesbiansforboromir]

I'm sick and in bed and that means I get to be mean to Faramir. SO! Whenever the topic of his character comes up (who he is as a person and what he values etc) the only quote from him people ever seem to use is the 'I love that which they defend' schpiel, despite Faramir having... A LOT MORE quotes about his worldviews than just that one. But fine! Let's talk about JUST THIS one quote and how it reflects on Faramir.

The quote (as used in gifsets, fanfic and artworks) is written thus; 'but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory, I love only that which they defend.' The assumption being that ‘that which they defend’ is referencing the people of Gondor, thereby affirming Faramir as a pacifist who loves his people, yes?

But the thing is no one needs to make assumptions about what ‘they defend’ means, that quote is cut off mid sentence! It ACTUALLY continues; 'that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom.'

See here, Faramir isn't talking about the PEOPLE he and his soldiers are defending. The population of Gondor and indeed Middle Earth at large that is being defended in Gondor’s perpetual war is a complicated mix of ancestries that include the middle men Faramir later despairs of emulating. They are certainly not all part of ‘the men of numenor’ nor are most at all invested in Gondor’s ancientry etc. He is talking about the political entity of Gondor as a remnant of the lost Numenor that he so idolises and the history it represents. It is a nationalist sentiment.

To Faramir, 'glorifying war' (as he perceives it) is an aspect of lower men, of lesser culture, not befitting high men. Not going to war mind you, it is just the glorification of such that he despises, the fact that it is a necessity of these times that warriors are lauded; “For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days.” 

It is already dismissive and callous to ascribe a LOVE of war to the Rohirrim, who appear just as aggrieved by loss and suffering as anyone, but what Faramir calls ‘love of war’ is really just the preparedness for it and those who respect others for that preparation and practice. The Rohirrim have never gone to war as a sport. He means duelling, wrestling and encouraging people to learn to defend themselves because as he says! ‘Such is the need of our days’. 

But those things, to him, are uncivilised, the mark of “we too have become more like to them [the Rohirrim], and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things.” So Faramir, in his claim of not loving a sword for it’s sharpness etc, is distancing himself from those men, showing in fact a callousness for the people he protects, holding idealised concepts of racial superiority and nationalism over defence. 

Denethor accuses him of just this! 'your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. [-] but in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death [-] with the death of your father and of all your people whom it is your part to protect'. Notably, Faramir replies, 'So be it'.

Anti-war sentiment is fine! Yes war is bad in general and shouldn’t be entered into lightly. But the message in LotR is not so simple and specifically Faramir's reasons for being anti-war-GLORIFICATION are not so selfless or noble as people like to believe. The war in LotR is not some political mess organised by higher powers and forcing those lower than them to suffer for their inscrutible machinations, it is a war of necessity in defense against (as Faramir puts it) “a destroyer who would devour all.” The wars that were for self gain and expansionism were what enriched Gondor and allowed it to become the ‘Queen among Queens’ that Faramir is yearning for. How can one be anti-war and yet idolise the colonialist Gondor of history? You can't.

The Gondor of old that is 'feared only as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise' that Faramir wants to emulate does not exist and Gondor's beauty was always supported by its King-lead military conquests to the east and south. But Faramir still wishes 'the silver crown return', for the King to come again and for this to somehow return his country to it’s former glory. Only under the Steward’s rule were Gondor's borders receded by design, and under Aragorn it proceeds to 'subjugate the South' once more. Minas Tirith is certainly at peace in the future however, it does not see siege or desperate battle again, which is the peace Faramir is looking for, 'Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair.'

So! Faramir is not Anti-war, nor does he love his people. Faramir resents the loss of the illusion of a wise paternalistic Gondor 'queen among queens' that does not have to bother with such lowly pursuits as war for the sake of self preservation and the praise that comes with it. HE LOVES ONLY THAT WHICH THEY DEFEND! (The great history of passive and magnanimous Gondorian supremacy that he has made up in his own head) I am so dizzy and my heart is beating way too fast I hate being sick adieu

#faramir #erran vs tolkien #lotr meta #tolkien meta #gondor #text post #denethor #faramir negative #faramir critical #lord of the rings #tolkien #lotr

[anghraine]

I feel like the lighting of the beacons scene is kind of a microcosm of my issues with the LOTR films as a whole, in that:

Cinematically, it's absolutely gorgeous and stirring

The visuals are lifted even further by the score

It's a reference to a thing that is actually in the book, just highly re-contextualized (the beacons exist in the book and have already been lit, but serve a different function; it is the Red Arrow that is used to ask for Théoden's aid, with the specific remark that Denethor is asking for aid and not demanding it; the messenger who brought the arrow is caught and decapitated on his way back to Minas Tirith and so Denethor can't know if the message got out without using the palantír)

The lighting of the beacons in the films is tied into the story they're telling, in which basically all the NPCs other characters are much more self-doubting and self-sabotaging and it's up to Our Heroes to get them to do the right thing or the heroes just do it themselves (see Treebeard, see Théoden, see Faramir...)

Specifically, the necessity of lighting the beacons in the films is a direct byproduct of making film Denethor malicious and incredibly incompetent

The quiet, almost incidental tragedy of the messenger's death in war—not in a big battle, not in any glorious way at all, just this random guy being casually chased down and killed—is lost in favor of something dramatic and show-stopping and cool.

It is dramatic and show-stopping and cool! But sacrifices were definitely made in order to work it into the story at all and I think those sacrifices were very representative of the films' adaptational approach.

#rip to hirgon. and denethor's characterization #anghraine babbles #legendarium blogging #legendarium fanwank #pj critical #denethor #big giving faramir's dream to éowyn as part of a shippy scene with aragorn energy #anghraine rants #hirgon

[borom1r]

look there r critiques to be made abt the characterization of movie!Faramir but he’s actually so important to me. the fact he Is tempted and that his temptation mirrors Boromir’s in that they’re both centered around love means so much to me, actually

#Boromir’s love for his people vs Faramir’s desire to be loved by Denethor #showing how much Denethor Had whittled away at Faramir. #*would* he have been tempted by the ring if he hadn’t been constantly belittled by his own father? I think that’s a valid question #or even if Boromir had been alive #in that moment Faramir had lost the one person in his direct family that cared for him genuinely and openly #like Denethor is all he had left. and Denethor cannot stand him. Denethor wishes he was dead. #*but maybe if he returns with the ring* <- and that is like. soso important to me for realsies #not to mention the arc of him overcoming the temptation before it’s too late and sending Frodo and Sam on their way #which like. As A Boromir Enjoyer. I think is so critical #like. if you raised someone. wouldn’t you hope that they’d take what they learned from you and become better? not repeat your mistakes? #Boromir adored his brother and Faramir was tempted but he didn’t fall. he learned and he became better. he didn’t repeat Boromir’s mistakes #idk I think obviously there are things that work in a book that don’t work on film and I really do enjoy movie Faramir I think they #crafted a very cool little guy #lotr

[headcannonballs]

LOOKING FOR A DISCORD

Where we can all discuss on the various ways PJ had messed up Tolkien without needing to defend ourselves from movie fans.

I personally love the movies as great fantasy-action-adventure movies but the only part I consider Tolkien at all is the soundtrack. I want somewhere where I can vent with like-minded people on how absolutely and completely PJ messed up the themes, characters and plot, but without having to worry that I will be bombarded by tons on "you obviously don't understand the difference in medium".

I do, in fact, understand changes needed to be made from book-to-script. I just happen to not agree with 99% of the changes made. I don't deny the original trilogy is made by fans of the book from a place of love, but I do deny PJ & Co.'s headcannons that now movie fans consider canon.

I want to be able to rant about all the character assassinations of my favourites (Legolas, Pippin, Faramir, Bilbo, Thranduil, ...) without having movie!Aragorn, movie!Boromir and movie!Thorin fans butting in.

I want to be able to discuss actual thematic stuff like the nature of the Ring and how it works without being bashed over the head with cookie cutter theories like 'absolute power corrupts'.

I want to be able to read a reply and not having to wonder if the other person has ever read any book by Tolkien because it is so far divorced from canon I can't even picture it.

Anyone, out there? Or do I have to start one myself?

#lord of the rings movies #the hobbit movies #criticism and critiques #damn but i really hate the characterizations in these movies #shall I name every single one they screwed up? #or just the most major ones? #character assassinations in LotR #no more angsty teen Legolas #Pippin is naive but not dumb #justice for Faramir #the Hobbit is about Bilbo #in defense of Thranduil

[winged-wolf-dreamer]

Will and Mike can't die yet, they and the rest of the Party need to see the live action Lord of the Rings films!

#byler #byeler #they will all be there opening night for each of the films #and they will love them #and also be critical of stuff like faramir in two towers

[bitchfaramir]

Tolkien: "I think you misunderstand Faramir."

I think you misunderstand Faramir. He was daunted by his father: not only in the ordinary way of a family with a stern proud father of great force of character, but as a Númenórean before the chief of the one surviving Númenórean state. He was motherless and sisterless (Eowyn was also motherless), and had a 'bossy' brother. He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful.

I think he understood Eowyn very well. Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul).

I did not, naturally, go into territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting, and in the earlier years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence.

A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and a least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor.

from The Letters of JRR Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter, letter no. 244, a draft to a critical reader

#FARAMIR #eowyn #lotr #lord of the rings #tolkien #jrr tolkien #lotr meta

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

There are so many posts that are like "Tolkien making Éowyn a healer at the end of LOTR is sexist, it's like forcing her back into a woman's role" and it's so frustrating. By all means criticize sexism in LOTR but can we PLEASE recognize that the most prominent healers in LOTR are male? You know, like Elrond. And Aragorn. There's all that stuff about how the hands of the king are the hands of a healer and THAT is how the people of Minas Tirith recognize Aragorn as their king. It's also not entirely clear from what Éowyn says that she intends to go into medicine. What she says is, "I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren." The other thing we know is that she and Faramir turn Ithilien into a "garden." It sounds to me like she became a healer of the earth, a gardener basically, not a physician. It's a bit vague and open to interpretation. In any case, I get very tired of these posts that are like "It's so sexist to make Éowyn a healer!" Guys. Healing isn't a gendered profession in Middle-earth. And you can bet Tolkien knew a lot of male doctors during WWI so I see no particular reason for him to consider it inherently women's work OR anything lesser. On the contrary, I am sure Tolkien held healers AND gardeners in the highest esteem. It's kind of a theme of his books.

#Eowyn #LOTR #my writing

[whiteladyofithilien]

Okay here to talk Eowyn and how the slights and disrespect she gets are more annoying than listening to Gollum talk to himself all day...

People who act like Aragorn dislikes/disdains her just because he doesn't return her romantic feelings are living in that incel mindset that women can only be admired as matrons or sexual objects. Aragorn the king of wholesome masculinity admires the heck out of Eowyn. Refers to her as the fairest thing in Rohan. He values her friendship and her place as a fundamental bullwark of her people.

People who act like she's somehow pathetic because she falls for someone who doesn't return her affection are not living in reality. They're lost in some Hollywood/porn centric view of romance where women are always sexually desired and if they aren't well then something is wrong with them. Faramir very clearly lays out what happened. She who had been treated rather like a utility in her household meets the last and greatest of the men of Numenor. Truly a man above all others. And of course she's bedazzled. Then there's the fact that he seems to truly see her (albeit on his side just platonic admiration and desire for friendship) and she matters and of course for someone who has been sidelined to tending to her aging uncle this draws her in. There's no fault on Aragorn but as any girl whose femininity and/or personhood has gone largely ignored will tell you it can be quite heady when someone actually notices you as a whole person, femininity included.

And finally her moment with the Witch-King being stolen from her like she did nothing. Ignores all these facts

1. Merry wouldn't have been there to stab him if not for her

2. It's very clearly a dual credit thing both in the passage and in the appendix footnotes

3. Nothing explicitly says that without Merry and his barrow-blade that she couldn't kill the witch-king. She's not a man while Merry is not a Man. The whole thing was based off of an elven prophecy which prophecies seldom are straightforward in their wording and don't even always come true (ask Treebeard) so there's nothing conclusive to say that her jamming a sword in his face wouldn't have done the trick with or without Merry. His role is certainly important because if nothing else prophecy or no he did distract the Witch-King with his blow allowing Eowyn to press an advantage but absolutely nothing there discredits her accomplishment in slaying the Witch-King of Angmar and people trying to act like Merry "made it easy for her" need to shove a barrow-blade where the sun don't shine

Small note here too. People who want to criticize her cooking are wrong in multiple aspects.

A. That's only in the films and a deleted scene at that.

B. It's sexist as hell to base a woman's merit off of her cooking skills. You go hamstring an oliphant and make a souffle then anonymous dudebro hating on Eowyn

C. If you think Eowyn's only accomplishments are "masculine" she does have a great talent with "feminine arts" as in she's a healer and gardener in Ithilien and by virtue of her spouse she's a freaking princess given Faramir is the Prince of Ithilien

So in conclusion if you want to diss Eowyn for any of the above mentioned off base arguments you can kiss Gollum's scrawny arse

#lord of the rings #eowyn #shield arm of rohan #white lady of rohan #Rohan #ithilien #tolkien #jrr tolkien #prince of Ithilien #faramir #aragorn #aragorn elessar #gondor #houses of healing #eomer #eomer of rohan #eowyn of rohan #witch king #witch king of angmar #angmar #merry #merry brandybuck #meriadoc brandybuck #the shire #barrow downs #tom bombadil #lotr #princess Eowyn #i do not desire the speech of living men

[emilybeemartin]

If Boromir lived, would Denethor still despair quite so much?

My first thought was "no because he'd be dead," but you're right, he wouldn't have Boromir's cloven horn, would he? And Gandalf would show up and say he'd survived and was coming to defend the city. I've always operated on the assumption that the events in Minas Tirith and Osgiliath would be the same up through the battle of Pelennor Fields, but the situation would be different for both Faramir and Denethor, wouldn't it? Faramir because he would only be holding the defenses temporarily, rather than being saddled with the Captaincy, and Denethor because he'd have the conviction to hold on until his favorite son returned.

Tbh, this is where a Boromir Lives AU gets sticky, because his death is so critical for Faramir's development and the deliverance of Minas Tirith. It's not an element I've dived into that much because I mostly like exploring Boromir's emotional journey post-Amon Hen and drawing him happy and not dead, but the result is that it takes away from the burdens on his brother and father that are needed for the narrative to be as powerful as it is. Even Aragorn needs the void Boromir leaves to really step into his role as king.

If anybody has fic recs that flesh out this dynamic, drop them in the comments!

#boromir #faramir #denethor #aragorn #lotr

[iconuk01]

From: "The Lord of the Rings: A Musical Tale" at the Waterside Theatre, Bagnor, near Newbury.

Video is not mine, but this show was AMAZING

When you arrive at the theatre, you don't go into the theatre at first, you all gather in a large garden area behind the theatre, which is set up with wooden benchs and tables, and a large, raised, circular stage.

This is the setting for the opening ten minutes, as the cast arrive, in character, and help set up for Bilbo's birthday, playing ringtoss games on the stage, or just wandering the tables, saying hello to the audience.

Then we start the folk music, and the cast join in on their instruments (Nearly every one of them plays at least two instruments as the show progresses, so they're providing their own music as they go along, with cast not involved in a scene usually providing background music from just off stage) as they have the birthday party, Bilbo gives his speech, disappears, and then the audience enters the theatre for the rest of the show (Well, almost, but that would be telling)

The choreographer, Anjali Mehra, combines English folk dancing, Morris dancing, as well as many elements from various Indian dancing that I don't know the names of, but recognise as being from there, and some just fun random stuff. (See video above)

Sam and Frodo

Legolas arriving at Lothlorien

The Lady Galadriel

I need to sleep now, or I'd try to describe how they did the Nazghul on a budget as well as a stunninly effective, if abstract, Balrog, and an utterly TERRIFYING Shelob, all in a tiny theatre (it only seats 220)!

But I will say their Sam (Nuwan Hugh Perera) is utterly endearing, and at the other end of the scale, their take on Gollum (Matthew Bugg) is astonishing, an utterly physical performance with the actor crawling around the stage, the galleries, the balcony itself, all whilst screeching or wheedling. He even gets a sort of duet with himself... and the later scene where, listening to Sam and Frodo sing "Now and for Always", a song of quiet Hobbit heroism, Gollum starts to relax and smile to himself and somehow visibly starts to come round to his Smeagol side again, before the encounter with the angry, distrustful Sam which drives him away, is heartbreaking.

Sam is singing lead here, with Frodo (Louis Maskell) sitting in front, Bilbo (John O'Mahony) and Rosie (Charlotte Grayson) in the background, with Pippin (Amelia Gabriel) on lute, Merry (Geraint Downing) on cello, Arwen (Aoife O'Dea) on harp and Elliott Mackenzie (ensemble) next to them.

Just beautiful!

Is it perfect? Well, it crams a lot into it's three hours, but cuts quite a lost of bits out, especially character development and quite a few major characters. As one critic noted, intros and motivation are basically reduced to "I am Xxxxx, I'm a zzzzzz and I'm friends with him but I don't like him and here's why"

So Rohan doesn't feature at all, Theoden and Denethor are sort of combined into one "Steward" and and Faramir isn't there at all... I guess if you're on a budget, the cavalry are the first to go. I also suspect if you don't know the story already, it's a bit of a skip over a LOT of things you need to know.

But that being said, the cast are sincere, the music is great and the staging is STUPENDOUS, so all in all, a great evening.

#The Lord of the Rings: a musical tale #The Lord of the Rings #theatre #Youtube

[lesbiansforboromir]

Hii, do u have any headcanons about Boromir and Faramir’s relationship? I find it interesting, as they were close in childhood (I believe the wiki says Boromir was very protective over Faramir??) but also Faramir is quite critical of Boromir later on. I hate it when people make it out as Faramir is perfect and Boromir bad- they’re both complex characters and neither are perfect. So yeh, do you have any headcanons on their relationship as children and how it changed?

OHHH I HAVE... so so many lemme see how well I can describe this.

So, yes, there's this little overview description in the appendices that says when they were children Boromir was 'ever the protector of Faramir'. But the dynamics of childhood siblings and the ones that appear later in life are going to be different, aren't then? Especially as complex opinion and personal morality divide them further.

And also, honestly, I'm not entirely sure Faramir needed this protection. Because essentially what Boromir grew up with was an intense feeling of concern for his family that was heavy enough already when he was very little and losing extended family members to this or that battle, but peaked when he lost his own mother to some complex interaction between Mordor's proximity and her own chronic ill health. I go into that whole aspect of his childhood more HERE but essentially Boromir blamed himself a great deal and was pushed into this feeling of needing to make up for it.

And it also made him slightly obsessive over the health and safety of his family. Hence, he was Faramir's protector. (This is also supported by a letter in which Tolkien describes Boromir as 'bossy' which I do find quite telling.) And little Faramir appreciated this at first! Sometimes it was a bit overbearing, but for the most part having his cool older brother around a lot to stick up for him and to keep him from danger and to help him get whatever he wanted was never going to be a bad thing. Indeed, Faramir became even more confident and outgoing with this foundational Boromir support system than before.

But Faramir also of course had his own issues and hangups surrounding both his mother's death and the doom to the east that was rapidly approaching all of them. I go into more detail about that HERE but again to be brief, little Faramir finds comfort in being angry about the lot fate has assigned him, rather than sad, because it feels more in control. And in order to be even more in control, he leans into his very heightened love of history and books that he and his father share to try and understand his position in the world. This leads him to want to be essentially 'too special to die' like the faithful heroes of old Numenor etc. And with Gandalf's introduction into this complex emotional thicket, he turned that desire into an intense need to be faithful. He has to be THE MOST Catholic essentially, he gets a sense of catharsis and satisfaction from determining where Gondor (and his family) have 'gone wrong' and how tragic and sad that is and how he has to be better than all of them.

This change in Faramir also likely coincides with Boromir's protectiveness going from 'supportive' to 'frustrating'. Faramir feels stifled by Boromir's worry and it gets more aggravating when Boromir is going off to war as Hurin of the Keys (Then Captain-General Hurin) squire and participating in battles of his own volition and against Denethor's wishes before coming home to be worried about how late Faramir is out or something.

So Faramir is starting into that teenage stage of oh my god I have opinions and I have to be so loud and hard line about them in the midst of Boromir's leaving that stage and being confronted even more heavily with the hopelessness of their people, it's a volatile mix. Boromir also, around this point, has accepted that he is gay. It's not such a devastating blow to him but it is also just another difficult little obstacle in him that makes his life harder. He is also navigating the idea of whether or not that makes him ill fated, is he just corrupted on the inside? Is he fundamentally doomed? (Cultural concepts of homophobia HERE) It's not the kind of mental state that needs a little brother's religious convert ramblings about the fall of man and Gondor's failure and the lack of the faithful etc.

So Faramir starts talking like he is fundamentally more wise that Boromir could ever be and Boromir's interactions with the horrors of war makes him more overprotective which makes Faramir more frustrated and incites him to patronise Boromir even more just to antagonise him and... well the vicious circle is started. Not to say that their relationship just obliterates itself of course, they still like each other's company most of the time and Denethor is there to mediate their fights, to ask for Boromir's patience with his younger brother and ask for Faramir's understanding etc.

But they get into a big fight when Faramir says he also wants to be a part of the Military. Because Faramir knows in order to be special and noble and heroic for the times, he has to be a warrior too, no matter how much he resents that fact.

Boromir still doesn't understand why he's doing this, just to be better than he is? (Sort of, but not for the reasons Boromir thinks he's doing it, not for this need to be the best in order to somehow save everyone, because no one else seems to understand.) And doesn't he realise war isn't a game or a competition?

Faramir thinks Boromir just wants to be overprotective again, and also 'claim the glory all for himself' despite how much his brother hates that assumption of him, FARAMIR knows it must be true, must be why Boromir does anything! His grandfather Adrahil told him so (more on Adrahil HERE).

And this one cannot be solved so easily by Denethor, whom is also against Faramir going to war and cannot be quite that impartial, my son there are other ways to defend your people, other needs of Gondor. But Boromir agrees with him too readily and Faramir believes it's just an excuse Boromir is using. Boromir blurts out 'I won't be able to protect you! You could die!' and Faramir says he never wanted or needed Boromir's protection, he can look after himself! And this hurts Boromir's feelings and pride just a bit too much. And he goes quiet and he says fine, do what you want. I will stop protecting you.

The argument is technically over and Boromir hurries to stop feeling hurt or angry or worried about it and turn his feelings stern and apathetic as Faramir is flushed with triumph and drive enough to forget his own hurt and frustration. He also tries hard to forget the fear and heartbreak on Denethor's face as his father realises that, all too soon, he will have to start thinking of both his sons as assets in war, not the soft babies he held in his arms. But it DOES start Faramir's sensation that he has to protect and shield his father from his and Boromir's disagreements, Denethor being so tragic in his eyes, just not up to the task, just not quite masterful or wise enough to understand and lonely without their mother as well. So Faramir extends this patronising care to Denethor too and moves on.

Boromir takes up the mantel of 'Captain-General' when he is 24 after a wildly successful execution of a plan he and Prince Theodred devised to combat the movement of orcs and easterlings into the wastes around the black gate. Many had called it risky, but the pair had ordered the prolonged engagement well and succeeded in driving all hostiles away from North Ithilien. His success and prowess assured the military councellors that he is ready and more than able to accept the position as Warden of the White Tower. At nearly the same time, Faramir enters the Military proper after finishing his own squireship with the Captain of Adrahil's Swan Knights in Dol Amroth (this he persuaded Denethor to agree too for Elphir would soon be ready to come and be fostered by Denethor for his preparation to be the Prince of Dol Amroth after Imrahil and he and Faramir had always been good friends, it would be good for him to have a friend in Minas Tirith so he did not feel too alone or intimidated when he arrived.)

And Boromir was true to his word. He ordered the army as was best for it and specifically did not favour Faramir's companies in safety or comfort. And despite everything, this was a surprise to Faramir. He just hadn't expected Boromir to treat him like everyone else and with the years they had spent away from each other, only sending letters, it was clear that they had both changed and that their relationship now was more strained. The awkwardness did not last long, they still were brothers whom had been too close for too long to stand on ceremony. But they argued more, Faramir saw Boromir more as a political opponent in the field of Gondor's cultural and moral heart, Boromir saw Faramir more as an obstacle to his goals for defending the country and all the while Denethor saw less and less of both of them and grew less and less aware of how difficult their relationship had been growing. He had his own focus after all.

Faramir began very very subtley trying to undermine Boromir's position in the eyes of Gondor's people and her soldiers. This wasn't for any nefarious purpose, he genuinely believed that Boromir was leading them to baser instincts, to less noble goals and that his tactics were, if not barbaric, certainly too 'rohirric' for him. Obviously Boromir countered this and did well enough in the debates and discussions and social events that Faramir or his friends voiced such opinions in, but it was still yet another fight Boromir had to win and it dragged on his energies and patience and cast Faramir in an even less warm light in his mind and heart. In the end, Faramir just made him tired and he did not feel secure in his brother's support of him off the battlefield, even if he knew he was an excellent captain. (Though Faramir also often found ways to circumnavigate his orders into some more noble action that gained his soldier's admiration but made the greater picture of Boromir's tactical maneuverers harder or sometimes just downright unworkable and needing complete rethinks on the fly.) 'Lord Faramir is an equal captain to his brother, he is just less reckless' etc etc.

And this state of things continued for much the rest of their lives. War keeps them distant from each other and slowly wears down their connection until thinking of love for one another is more a frustrating fact of life than a treasured feeling 'god that faramir is annoying but I love him, I can't help it' kind of sensation. That is, until (not weeks before the final attack on osgiliath) Faramir discovers Boromir's secret. The letters he finds are too well ciphered to really discern any details, but two things are clear; they are obviously romantic and they are obviously from a man.

And isn't this just the most aggravating and unjust thing? That still Gondor holds Boromir as 'the best man in Gondor' when he is so ill-fated? So wrong? It is so indicative of Gondor's fallen state, Faramir thinks to himself. But that Boromir should be so weak in the face of his... struggles? Of this burden? It is both vindicating for him but also infuriating. He confronts Boromir about it, it is not so satisfying as he expects it to be. Boromir is icey cold, refuses to engage with his attempts to connect to him, his offers of help, his well meaning chiding, he truly wants only the best for Boromir! Boromir only asks, will you tell the Steward? And Faramir replies no, I wouldn't do that to him, he has enough to worry himself. And this at least, Boromir agrees on.

And somehow to Faramir's annoyance the whole subject is dropped in favour of sudden war. Dreams and the loss of bridges and such pyrrhic victories that cost so much and nearly see his own death, it all just twists into his own sense of frustration and 'specialness' that he can't believe Boromir is sent on the quest. If Faramir were only to reveal what he knows to the council, the one fact that would clearly make him the better candidate than doomed Boromir... but it would be too much a shock for his father and too sorded a debate for Faramir himself to be involved with, especially at such a time of war (and Faramir is not unheeding or careless of such things, Gondor needs a sturdy defense and this would undermine confidence too readily.)

But in the end, he does come privately to his father. And he tells him, with gentleness and concern, what he knows. Denethor is silent and his face that unreadable mask it often becomes, and eventually he tells Faramir to leave as he needs to think. Faramir is as understanding as possible, he knows it's a shock. And yet he is not recalled and Boromir leaves Minas Tirith the next day at dawn and he does not say farewell to his brother.

It is only much later, after many months of he and Denethor working together in Gondor's defense, that he finds out Denethor is angry at him. Angry for the way he treated Boromir, for what he calls a lack of care. He is also angry about his concealing of his and Boromir's troubles, for the lack of trust and communication he has shown his father (but also his colleague in war now, their cooperation so vital in these times). But Faramir was doing all of this FOR his family! They just refuse to see the truth of it all, of their fallen state! If only they would listen to Gandalf and to him! But no, Faramir feels like his care has been rejected and his resentment for all this only grows, until he finds two hobbits in the woods. He realises almost gleefully that Boromir had failed, he had seem him dead and heard the horn and now he realised that Boromir had been judged and found wanting. Now he had an opportunity to succeed where Boromir failed. But he has to make sure these hobbits know that, to know he is better, special. He just wishes his Father could see it too.

#boromir #denethor #tolkien #erran vs tolkien #soap operas in mannish sindarin #chats #rightful-king-of-gondor #it's very funny to me that aragorn's coming and being like hey... whats up with these brothers #ANYWAY there it is finally down on paper the whole sorded tale #faramir critical #homophobia #gandalf critical

[anghraine]

I got a comment that was like ... people are only mad about film Faramir because he doesn't act exactly the way they personally imagined him, and tbh I'm torn between being annoyed at how deeply disingenuous that argument is and slightly impressed at the sheer audacity of pinning the Faramir Controversy on difference from random people's headcanons rather than the book itself.

...then I got to thinking about how the whole time-consuming and wildly out of character handling of the temptation of the Ring is one thing, and justifiably gets a lot of attention, but Faramir allowing his soldiers to beat Gollum for information is quite comparable in my mind. They're his men! Gollum is an unarmed prisoner! I guess it's meant to show the exigencies of war or something and I'm just like ... hahaha no.

In a way it reminds me of film Aragorn just straight up killing the Mouth of Sauron in a way that seems meant to show their desperation in a badass cathartic way, and meanwhile, I'm thinking ... oh, our heroes murder ambassadors now. I feel like it's the same underlying kind of rationale, and quite far from not matching people's headcanons.

#faramir ordering his men to handle gollum gently and aragorn not actually killing sauron's (human) envoy are not people's headcanons #they're things that objectively happened (or didn't happen) in the source material being adapted #like the argument about how significant the divergences are is one you can have (obviously i find them very significant) #the argument about whether the comparisons should be made at all is one you can have (obviously i think comparisons are fine) #but 'people are just mad about not seeing their headcanons on screen'? nah. points for effort though. #anghraine rants #legendarium fanwank #legendarium blogging #pj critical #jewel of the seashore #húrinionath #vagueblogging intensifies

[from-the-coffee-shop-in-edoras]

A few final thoughts from my 14 year old niece, the first time LOTR reader, before she heads home tomorrow:

1. She loves Éowyn and she loves Faramir, but she does not love that Éowyn married Faramir. She wanted Éowyn to be a single lady out raising hell somewhere, perhaps with Faramir in tow but ONLY as a buddy. Her suggestion was for Éowyn to run Rohan’s army since “she did better in battle than anyone else anyway,” and that would allow Éomer to focus on “other stuff” as king. I don’t really know what other stuff she had in mind, but, whatever it is, I’m sure he will look extremely handsome while doing it.

2. She skipped all the poems and songs that were more than 6-8 lines long. I can’t criticize this choice, as I don’t think I learned to really like and appreciate them until I was college-aged, and I didn’t get everything from them that I could until I had a lot more context for the many 1st and 2nd age references. So maybe she’ll come back to the poems on a future reading someday (if there is one). She’s already pretty certain that she’ll never find the Bombadil sing-songy verses appealing, though.

3. We’ve established that Legolas is her favorite major character (runners up: Éowyn and Sam), but, like many of us, she has her own favorite minor characters that she is emotionally invested in to a level that is disproportionate to their place in the story. Hers are Bill the Pony (“way better than Shadowfax”) and Ioreth (“she reminds me of grandma”). When she heard who my own little minor obsessions are—Háma, Théodred, and Elfhelm—she had to be reminded who they are because they apparently didn’t make much of an impression on her. But she very politely listened to my case for all 3 of them and agreed that they sound “kinda cool, I guess.” I’ll take it.

All in all, I cannot possibly recommend the experience of talking about the books with a first time reader highly enough. I am so jealous of her for getting to experience some of this magic in that special way that can only hit you on the first time through, when you have no expectations or preconceived notions and it’s all just washing over you. Getting to hear her impressions brought some of that back for me in a vicarious way, and I loved it….though she will hold over my head the fact that she read over a thousand pages at my request until the day I die.

#lord of the rings #lotr #tolkien #first time reader thoughts #my niece is a certified Bill the Pony stan #the kids are alright

[thesummerestsolstice]

So I got an ask about how I write orcs (like Garthaglir) and I'm working on answering it, but I feel like first I need to make a post about why orcs in canon bother me so much. This post is going to be a lot less fun than a lot of my others, but I think it's really important to critically examine the Legendarium. That said, mind the content warning.

CW: discussions of racism (in real life), dehumanization

So I have three major issues with orcs in canon. I'll start with the least serious and work my way up.

Messy worldbuilding: Tolkien proposed about five different backstories for the orcs and doesn't seem to have been happy with any of them. The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings clearly shows us that the orcs are sentient; but he claimed at one point that they were essentially non-sentient puppets of Morgoth. That explanation was a way to get around the idea that Morgoth had created a race of sentient brings which he didn't like for Catholic reasons. The idea that orcs are corrupted elves is the most well-known of the orc backstories (and the one I like the best), but the actual text doesn't really address this? There's no indication that orcs could have once been elves or elf-like. They certainly aren't treated anything like elves or men, even corrupted ones. Which leads to problem two:

Narrative dehumanization: so fantasy and sci-fi have "faceless evil horde" as a recurring trope– and it's a trope that has some worldbuilding issues baked in. In the orcs' case, there's a whole sentient race that is universally, inherently evil. Either they all "chose" to be evil, which is basically impossible, or they've been so corrupted that they don't have a choice, which makes them victims more than villains. But the narrative doesn't treat them like victims; their lives have essentially no value. Sam in the books (Faramir has this line in the movies) thinks about a dead human soldier fighting for Sauron; wondering if he was evil, and how he came to be dragged off to war. In comparison, Legolas and Gimli count orc kills. Even heroic characters who are supposed to be compassionate have no regard for the orcs, because even if they're clearly sentient, the story doesn't treat them that way. And I hate that. I think the orcs should be treated like people, and not mindless monsters.

The racism: this is definitely the worst problem with Tolkien's orcs. So the orcs are the result of a lot of ideas; corrupted soldiers, biblical concepts of shadow and darkness, and yes, racial caricatures. In one of Tolkien's letters, he describes them as a "degraded" version of "Mongol-type" humans ("Mongol" here being an outdated and offensive term for Asian people as far as I know). Source for the quote here; the author of this article makes interesting points, but I disagree with some of his conclusions, including him backing down from saying the orcs are racist. So, yes, Tolkien's orcs are in-text racism– they're far from the only example either, Maeglin and Eol's story, as well as the LoTR representations of "Easterlings" and "Southrons" have similar problems. I hope I don't need to explain why I don't want to perpetuate these harmful ideas in the stories I tell. I've tried to tell an orcish story that isn't racist or dehumanizing. I hope others will try to do the same.

#jrr tolkien #tolkien #silmarillion #silm meta #orc meta #tolkien legendarium #mind the cw

[saentorine]

Patriarch vs. Parent

I feel like the films and by extension much of the fandom overlook how Denethor is not only Boromir and Faramir’s father, but also their lord and commander. There is ongoing tension between the personal and political dimensions of their relationships, which honestly explains like 99% of what can feel “mean” about Denethor’s treatment of Faramir. Indeed, part of Denethor’s arc is recognizing his personal love for and reframing his role as father to his son just as Gandalf predicts: Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end.

Denethor is invoking the political dimension of their relationship when he bids Faramir return to defend Osgiliath: if there is a captain here who still has the courage to do his lord’s will. Even as their discussion references Boromir and their personal relationship, Faramir makes his points about conditions in the role of a captain and Denethor ultimately commands him as is his right as the highest point of authority. And the command is not even a necessarily bad one: Denethor is a ruler in a desperate position, seeming even more desperate by the information he’s gleaned from the palantir, and is using the best resources he has left to defend the realm. Even as Faramir begs his father to “think better of” him personally, he accepts his commander’s instructions as he must as a captain of Gondor’s military.

Denethor’s choice of Boromir for the journey to Rivendell was also more political than personal. In the books Denethor initially prefers Faramir for the assignment but is convinced to send Boromir, who by political measures is the better choice: his heir, the titled Captain-General, the more experienced of the two brothers. The council favors him. Even in his bitterness Faramir acknowledges that it was “the lord of the city” that made that choice-- Denethor as ruler, not father, even if the consequences are deeply personal for both of them.

In general, Denethor seems to lean more heavily into his role as his son’s ruler and commander-- something which we can easily imagine has colored the lifetime of their relationship: duty over desire, public service over personal warmth. In the patriarchal inherited power structure of Gondor, especially in wartime, Denethor’s primary concern with his sons would be their efficacy as an extension of his rule. Under the pressures of the Stewardship of a struggling realm, no shit he’s too burnt out to sustain a warm father-son relationship distinct from the political, especially by the time his children are grown-ass adults sharing this responsibility. However, he is more father than commander in a few notable moments, which become more significant over the short period of time we see him. Faramir in the books (and Mablung in the movies) states that death is the penalty for flouting the Steward’s orders to waylay travelers and apprehend those of political interest. However, when Faramir returns from Ithilien, even though he has done precisely what Denethor hoped to avoid by allowing a strategic resource to leave their domain, Denenthor doesn’t even mention capital punishment. He literally ignores the stated law as it pertains to his only surviving son. He does throw some sharp fatherly jabs-- Faramir’s persistent naivety about the harsh realities of ruling during wartime, his relationship with Gandalf, comparing him to Boromir, etc.-- because indeed, Denethor must be especially disappointed that his own son cannot be trusted to respect his laws and the chain of command. But he also affords him major grace considering the established consequences that would presumably be enforced for anyone else.

Denethor’s fatherly grief for Boromir is also what first starts to compromise his efficacy as Steward, along with his use of the palantir. Gandalf is critical when Denethor’s priority upon his arrival is to discuss his son’s final days with Pippin rather than the state of the ongoing war. (And here is a place the books and movies differ significantly: in the book Gandalf and Pippin see that Denethor has already called for aid from Rohan and has set his people to work repairing the Rammas Echor; it is only in the film that Gandalf accuses him of having “done nothing”). And we only see Denethor after this point, which seems to be why a lot of folks assume Denethor is paranoid and incompetent and always has been-- but both Faramir and Imrahil, close to Denethor, observe that he is not himself. The man has held shit down up until that point; Gondor has lasted as long as it has because of Denethor’s rule, not despite it.

And when Faramir is returned to Minas Tirith on death’s door, Denethor flips dramatically, withdrawing his attentions from the siege to focus entirely on the fate of his dying son. (And he truly believes he is dying!). He renounces his command and soundly rejects Gandalf’s entreaties that he return to the defense of the city as his role demands, and chooses instead a private death alongside the child he believes already doomed by the choices he made as Steward. (In addition to reasserting autonomy over Gondor and his own fate-- but that’s another post).

It doesn’t end well, and it certainly doesn’t afford any opportunity to live a renegotiated, repaired relationship, but Denethor does indeed remember it ere the end that he loves Faramir and is first and foremost his father.

#gandalf makes such a point of telling faramir that denethor will remember he loves him only to be like BUT NOT LIKE THAT lol #denethor #faramir #boromir #gondor #hope and despair #denethor's A+ parenting #where my denethor apologists at? #meta #lotr meta #lord of the rings #tolkienverse

[velvet4510]

let’s talk about LOTR book vs. movie differences.

Overall, I prefer the book over the movies. The book just has even more depth, even more great character moments, and of course, all the lore (particularly the appendices) that could never be squeezed into a film, even a film trilogy.

The movies were perfectly cast - every actor was born to play their respective role - with magnificent direction, music, cinematography, and SFX. But the script has many problems when compared to the book.

These are, IMO, the worst changes that the films made (in no particular order):

Far too much emphasis on action/battle scenes. Helm’s Deep is 1 chapter long in the book but the equivalent of at least 5 chapters long in the movie. Ridiculous. LOTR has action scenes, but it is not an action story.

Frodo sending Sam away and going into Shelob’s lair without him. Everything about this added scene is an absolute atrocity. Enough said.

The entire butchering of Faramir. It’s really quite tragic. For the sake of drama, the films stripped Faramir of everything that makes him the incredible character that he is in the book.

Deleting the Scouring of the Shire. I get why (pacing), but it’s the true climax to the hobbits’ storyline and character arcs, and is just a better ending IMO.

Not including any of Frodo’s moments of impressive strength from the book (saving his friends from the Barrow-wight, fighting back against the Nazgûl at Weathertop, defying the Nazgûl at the ford, saving Boromir from a troll in Moria, and choosing all by himself to go to Mordor alone). He has so many bad*ss moments in the book that Elijah Wood would’ve nailed, but the movies made him too helpless and didn’t give a true talent like Elijah nearly as much to work with. (Elijah himself, though, is absolute perfection in the role, and it pains me to think how many great moments from the book he was robbed of.)

Cutting Tolkien’s beautiful songs, especially the “Man in the Moon” from the Prancing Pony. Why couldn’t the film have been part-musical???

Gandalf’s fall looks like he just…lets go. For some reason. In the book, the Balrog’s whip drags him down immediately, but onscreen he grabs onto the cliff and then lets go himself. Makes no sense.

All the stupid hamfisted foreshadowing of Boromir’s attempted theft of the Ring. The script bashes it over our heads, especially in Galadriel’s scene, and I have no idea why any of this was added. Why not just show Boromir glancing at Frodo and the Ring several times, like the book describes? That’s all that was needed.

Making so many jokes at Gimli’s expense because of his height and reducing him to mere comic relief. In the book his character is treated with dignity and has such depth.

Reducing Faramir and Éowyn’s phenomenal love story to a single 30-second scene. Screw pacing, those two deserved a full half hour (at the very least) of screentime dedicated to just them.

The butchering of Tolkien’s point about the Ring’s power by making Isildur’s failure seem like a personal flaw, to the point where it’s the reason Aragorn doesn’t want to be king. A refusal to destroy the Ring isn’t about the Ring-bearer’s own internal character; it’s about how the Ring’s power is absolute and no mortal has a chance of directly destroying it. Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn, et. al. are fully aware of this in Tolkien’s canon. This change makes it seem like there’s something wrong with Isildur and Frodo specifically for not destroying the Ring.

Cutting the pivotal moment of Sam’s entire character arc where he takes the Ring from Frodo’s body, decides to try to continue the Quest alone, and then wears the Ring to hide from the Orcs. The movies just cut all of this critical content just for the sake of a surprise reveal of “omg Sam’s got the Ring!”

Deleting the CRUCIAL scene where Frodo curses Gollum outside the Cracks of Doom. The whole point of Gollum’s fall is that it’s not caused by a physical struggle between him and Frodo (as the movie portrays), but rather by his own actions, breaking his oath to Frodo and ignoring the warning within Frodo’s curse. The movie instead makes it into the climax of a typical action film.

Apparently this doesn’t bother most fans, but it most certainly bothers me: reducing Rosie to distant eye candy for Sam who he’s never talked to. In the book their relationship is so much more substantial because they grew up together and know each other inside & out and Sam’s love for her actually feels real. In the movies, the relationship just feels so shallow.

Referring to Frodo’s ride to Valinor as “the last ship to leave Middle-Earth.” A flat-out lie when you know Tolkien’s canon, completely ignoring the fact that Sam will be allowed to sail West eventually and they will reunite. They don’t even include Frodo’s line “your time may come, Sam.”

Sam, Rosie, and their children apparently not living in Bag End at the end. One of the book’s most beautiful developments is that after years of being too big for bachelors, Frodo’s generous parting gift to Sam finally enables Bag End to be a family home. It shocks me that the trilogy ends on a closeup of a random yellow hobbit-hole door instead of Bag End’s iconic green door.

On the other hand, there are a few book-to-film changes that I really like:

Arwen helping Frodo at the Ford instead of Glorfindel. I just love the idea of giving Arwen something important to do in the actual narrative, besides just being Aragorn’s wife. At the same time, as I said, I feel like the way the film did it made Frodo too helpless. My ideal version would be a mix of the two: Arwen meets the travellers in Glorfindel’s place but then sends Frodo off on her horse by himself, like Glorfindel does.

Boromir training and playing with Merry & Pippin.

Boromir carrying Frodo out of Moria.

“Give them a moment, for pity’s sake!”

Boromir saying “they took the little ones” instead of “they took the halflings.”

My favorite of all of the screenwriters’ additions that aren’t in the book is the immortal “Roast chicken” exchange.

Giving Théoden a sadder, more realistic reaction to his only child’s death.

Just giving Éowyn more screen time and showing why she falls in love with Aragorn. In the book, she only talks to him a few times and her love for him feels quite rushed; one of the book’s few flaws, in my mind.

Pippin being the one to directly save Faramir by jumping onto the pyre and rolling him off of it to safety.

Denethor realizing too late that Faramir is alive; a heartbreaking moment.

Théoden getting to see that Éowyn is the one who saved him and say a proper goodbye to her. It’s so unsatisfying in the book how he never knows she was there; I much prefer how Éowyn in the movie gets that moment of closure with her beloved uncle.

“I can carry you!” is the scene with the greatest page-to-screen adaptation, hands down. Everything from the acting to the gut-wrenching addition of “do you remember the Shire?” to the music is flawless. Makes me choke up every single time without fail.

The Ring lingering on the lava’s surface, trying to survive, and only melting when Frodo chooses Sam over it. Absolutely phenomenal.

Frodo saying “I’m glad to be with you” to Sam on Mt. Doom instead of “I’m glad you’re with me.”

“You bow to no one.”

Expanding the timeline of Frodo’s last months in the Shire after their return from 2 years to 4 years. I love Jackson for gifting Frodo more time in the Shire before his departure than Tolkien gave him.

I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts about their favorite and least favorite book-to-film changes!

#lotr #jrr tolkien #lotr books #lotr movies #lotr book vs film #lord of the rings