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faislittlewhiteraven · 9 days

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Undertale/ISaT crossover thoughts 3

(aka the 'Sif and family explore The Island' edition)

Had a lot of Undertale/ISaT crossover thoughts (here's the post for how I'm crossing them over in general, and here's the post for an overview of each of the three major plot lines) but most of my actual thinking has been about Sif and family exploring The island so I'm gonna go into some depth for once rather than overview and hope this is useful for ideas for anyone writing any sort of 'Sif and family go to Sif's homeland' fic rather than the Undertale crossover centric stuff most of the other posts have been.

Side note: Location names in my notes is very minimal at this point as I generally look up names last when plotting anything. But er, working name of the Island is The Isle of Chara (because Undertale's Chara is kind of a big deal in this actually and good odds the final name will probably have Chara in it) so please keep that in mind in case I somehow end up typing that somewhere here in my notes.

---

Start:

Sif and family's plot starts with the return of colours and memories (caused by the breaking of the Barrier by the monsters). A day is spent kind of just 'emotionally reacting' to all that (Sif's kind of overwhelmed and in tears) but next day the group actually sit down and discuss whether it's worth them going or not because, yes they are the Saviours of Vauguard and yes they're right next to Bambooche but well, who knows what state the Island is in right now and if it turns out to be... Unpleasant, it is definitely going to hit Sif hard.

Siffrin, naturally does want to go, but am definitely having Sif mentally going over all the potential horrors of the situation (everyone just... Vanished without a trace leaving empty streets and homes? Piles of skeletons because everyone died in an instant? His parents completely untouched by the passage of time wondering why he, an adult stranger covered in scars is claiming to be their missing child?) before confirming with the others he's up for this and that they'll need his Island language skills in case of survivors and for reading signs and records anyway.

How do they get there:

At first the think of taking a boat but well, turns out the Island wasn't the only thing erased from memory and as they reach Bambooche it becomes apparent that- Oh! That 'spooky hill everyone just avoids' is actually a really big and complete with steel, concrete and 'our world modern' tar road bridge, that goes all the way out over the ocean and clearly extends towards the Island.

Cue Party stopping by Bambooche's harbour and the local House of Change to get an idea of options: The House also wants to send people to Vauguard's new/old neighbours (in general all the Houses in Vauguard are very curious and there's a ton of messengers and 'Message Craft' going back and forth everywhere right now) and they promise to get the word out to everywhere (including the press) that the Saviours of Vauguard are investigating so no one has any reason to worry. Cue awkward/nervous Mirabelle laughing and trying not to freak out at the pressure of being so important... Again! While many local sailors are willing to make the trip but well, prepping the ships for an unknown landing will take a while and everyone is nervous about the 'was apparently always there' giant bridge looming overhead (what if bits of it fall?).

So after a bit of back and forth the party go for the bridge. It needs people to check it for structural damage and Sadnesses anyway and the party have people capable of handling both (gives Nille construction analysis skills) so welp!

Bridge:

Actually approaching the bridge the party spy some weird 'metal lumps' that as they approach several members of the group (not just Sif) recognise as long abandoned cars. Which are everywhere, to the point its genuinely hard to get around them, and the group realise the 'little building next to the bridge' is actually the entrance for an underground car park. Cue the group finding a 'building' built into the base of the bridge; sadly the door is locked and despite Isabeau and Nille's best efforts they can't smash it open, but Sif's pretty sure it's probably the door to a train station judging by the glass and metal tube they can see running from the side of the building base all the way under the bridge.

Cue talk on what the crab a train even is as they make their way back onto the actual bridge and start climbing and hopping over the sea of cars (Odile wants everyone to know she hates all this jumping btw), but the silly vibes stop dead when the groups starts seeing the remains of car wrecks and some never buried corpses left at the wheel/caught between two lots of crumpled metal (it's been like 18 years so they're pretty much all picked clean skeletons but yeah, Bonnie is definitely having their eyes covered by Mira). ...Isabeau points out that all the cars and remains here very definitely indicate that the people of the Island were not instakilled/frozen in time by whatever happened and, most likely, they were hit by the memory erasure effect and those who could remember how tried to flee the Island for places less detrimental to their psyches but... It's honestly kind of amazing that there aren't more crash wrecks and bodies given how mentally distressed everyone driving must have been.

It doesn't help cheer anyone up but the observation is noted (Sif keeps getting shoulder pats from everyone since well, this isn't the worst case scenerio but it's pretty bad), and the group continue walking until finally they reach a 'Craft' Station (think gas station but like, magic wish stuff for fuel or something. Thinking there's a favor tree 'tank' next to the building and everything) where they find a few scribbled notes in Vauguardian from the last worker there (bilingial type, lived on the island, trying and failing to remember the island and 'something, someone?' important they left there, decided to head for Vauguard but only after noting down everything they can and making sure all the 'time preserving seals' on the food storage containers are working properly. Just in case someone needs them) and a whole heap of fridges and 'glass cases' with somehow still fresh food inside them. Sadly the cooking implements in the building weren't nearly as resistant to the flow of time but the group decides they'd rather spend the night outside in their tents anyway so they set up camp, Sif shares more of what they do and don't know about all this weird stuff they keep encountering (some but not a lot; Sif recognises the appliances and roads but their coastal hometown was much more 'traditional' and they don't have a clue how all these high tech craft machines actually work outside of making sure they're set up right and flicking a switch) and have a nice dinner before going to sleep.

Next day is walking, with a side order of more walking. Mood is a bit better after talks and rest, but most of this gets skipped (during which the precipitation that collected on the bridge during the cold night evaporates into a thick fog, and then starts slowly clearing up under what looks like strong sunlight) until the group finally see the actual island itself for the first time and- Oh wow. That's an actual city (for an idea of the visuals please imagine the city in the background of the Undertale credits scene where Papyrus is driving along a bridge in a car). Group are blown away because, damn, somehow they weren't expecting that (this is waaay too big a place for them alone to explore, thank goodness the Houses will be sending teams in soon) except for Siffrin who promptly recognises the place as something of a tourist/heavily Vauguardian influenced city that he used to visit on rare occasions with his parents: Usually for big events like going to see a big theatre production on his birthday or to attend the Island's biggest Change festival (brought over by the large Vauguardian immigrant population) which his mom's family always loved attending.

The City:

Takes the group another hour or two to actually reach the city itself (walking takes time alas) but when they get there, yep there sure are a lot of signs in Vauguardian and little Change God statues everywhere. ...Also a lot of signs of looting and unchecked plant growth and 'feral' animals everywhere but most of the buildings look pretty good (Odile is still instantly 'none of us are entering going up or down any floors past ground level in any of these without good reason before Nille/other professionals can check them over for instability' though), and though it takes a bit of awkwardly trying to read a rotting signpost map, Sif is able to guide everyone to the central train station...

Which still has its automated trains working!!! (Sif takes a moment to brag about how 'of course they're still fine! All public transport systems are safe guarded by the best protections applied Wish craft can manage' before wondering why they feel so proud of that something their dad used to say a lot?) Cue party quickly finding the 'Vauguard line' which, yes is working and is just waiting for passengers, and (before proper discussion of 'do we take the train back to Vauguard and unblock the station doors on the other end' can be had) a trainline that stops by Siffrin's home town down by the Island's Southern coast.

...Needless to say, they go for Sif's hometown first (they're 100% planning on unblocking the Vauguard station's door at the nearest possible opportunity afterwards though).

Cue silly scenes of everyone boarding the train, comments being made of the silly 'mascot' figures in black and white everywhere (thinking I may cameo Ingo and Emmet in setting), Odile mentioning that she remembers riding trains -much less sleak and automatic than these ones- in Ka Bue during her youth (presumably their use being associated enough with the Island they were forgotten about when the Event happened), Isabeau turning out to be majorly freaked out by the closing doors and general nice vibes before whooosh they're off to Sif's hometown.

Siffrin's hometown:

Party get a nice scenic view of the coast and a lot of 'old fashioned if fancy' looking coastal buildings as the train zips along and pulls into an elegant if overgrown looking station (I'm thinking greek column/smooth plain stone everywhere vibes and IDK why).

One side of the station leads away from the coast in the direction of what looks an actual town, while the other goes towards the coast and in general seems like a much quieter 'district', with lots of more old fashioned looking buildings (some clearly more damaged by the years without care than others), lots of trees, boat houses and cobbled pathways.

Naturally Sif immediately heads in the direction of the coast, at first slow then running ahead as he recognises the streets and houses before finally stopping at a house in very good condition. Party catch up and yeah... This is Sif's home. That tree had a swing, the marks on the door are from when Siffrin got it into his head to try carving 'stars' on everything for 'good luck', that over there is the 'public door' to Dad's observatory he left open to the public because all Islanders deserve to have unrestricted access to the stars but just as often people from town would just walk right through the house to get there because Mom loved having so many guests and their 'private family rooms' all had locks so letting people freely wander their home was fine and-!

...Yeah Siffrin is terrified of going in alone but fortunately their family of choice is there and well, in they go.

Everything inside is in equally good nick (the place itself is simple and homey but also clearly high quality stuff everywhere) and somehow only very barely dusty, though the group are quick to notice that all the cupboards are bare, there's clear signs of someone searching and packing away things (books all over, things left open, scattered things like bowls and cups -someone trying to decide what to take?) and well. There's a bunch of notes, written in Vauguardian on the kitchen table. Odile reads it out:

The writer cannot remember her name, or where she is, her family which she knows she must have because there's three plates here, just as there are three bedrooms and one of each is for a child she can't remember she can't remember but. She can think enough to write things down, to check on her neighbours and get them to eat. ...No one can stay here. She remembers Vauguard so it must be safe, and... There's a boat, in the warehouse, she and others can take. She and the friendly boulanger she can't remember he's her friend but she can't remember know how to rig and sail it and they're more coherent than most everyone else so... If they head there, maybe things will be fine? She's always liked Vauguard and the Change religion, always thought about changing herself a little even if he likes her as she is She can't read that last line and Changing would be nice, she thinks. ...though, if the family she must have are looking for her, she'll need to keep some things the same. Darkless kinky hair is unusual isn't it? Especially with the darker skin she inherited from her Vauguardian mother so she'll keep those, but... Oh what if she makes herself really stand out in other ways? Then. Then maybe they'll notice and be drawn to her even if they can't remember any better than she does! She lists the things she does remember about herself once more, where she plans to lead everyone (Dormont is a nice place. The quiet slow pace there might help the others adjust), all the supplies she plans on taking (a porcaline doll. Her 's favorite. Hugs it constantly even though it feels awful), a few complaints about people who absolutely refuse to leave even though they're every bit as mindblanked as the rest of them and leaves an end note inviting anyone who reads this account to please enjoy their rest in her home but to please, please please not damage anything because- Someone else might not want it damaged and. She can't remember, can't handle even entering some of these rooms it hurts too much but. Please. She wants everything here to remain where it is, until the people who belong here can return.

...

So um. Yeah.

Big group hug and tears are had but Sif being Sif tries to push on quicker than they should, group reluctantly accept that he might just need some time to process and with Sif's blanket permission ("It's my family house. You're my family, so you can go wherever you want") most split into smaller groups inspecting all the rooms and things, with Odile and Isa checking out Sif's dad's study, Bonnie immediately poking their nose into Sif's childhood room dragging Sif along to tell them all about everything in there (Sif is having like all the nostalgia, heart ache and 'genuinely wanting to show Bonnie all the cool things, oh! The toy aeroplane that actually flies =D' moods right now), and Nille and Mira giving the more rummaged areas a quick look over since well. Good odds they may be here a while and knowing where stuff is might be handy.

During this period thinking Mirabelle should have something of a mild freakout for many reasons over the thought that Euphrasie -her mother/mentor figure- could possibly be Siffrin's mindwhammied birth mother because Dormont was mentioned, and the Head Housemaiden never really talks about her past and she knew of Wish Craft, and has that genuinely really rare darkless kinky hair and the hand writing on the note seemed familiar and aaaaaaa!!!! Cue giving Nille a scene of trying to help calm Mira down' mostly by pointing out there's no way they could possibly know the truth right now, pointing out that post the return of colours they can't really be sure what 'darkless' they're even talking about here, and Sif still flinches whenever Euphrasie is mentioned due to how much he associates her with the loops so if they ARE related... It's probably going to be a good long while before they can even consider reconnecting anyway so Mira has plenty of time to sort through her feelings on this, talk to the related parties to confirm if her suspicions have anything to them, and Euphrasie would probably need even more time to process it all than Sif and Mira will put together (good odds she'd currently be going through a massive breakdown/freakout back in Dormont over realising she has a kid she has no idea the identity, well being or anything of).

Mostly out of direct 'scene to scene' stuff at this point but thinking the group end up spending the night in the Observatory, which is MASSIVE and Siffrin sort of manages to awkwardly get across that observatories not directly used for study are always like that because they're basically public churches for Islanders since viewing the guiding light of the stars with others is a holy/community kinda thing but... Also Sif's family on their Dad's side have owned this observatory/the 'star viewing area' on these cliffs for generations and it IS totally normal to spend every other night stargazing with random strangers and to be given near constant lessons on stars and proper behaviour by your Dad so all the other families know you're being properly pious and- Cue everyone being like: 'hey Sif, I think your family might've be a little less 'humble coastal folk' and more 'stupid rich' than you might've realised from the perspective of being a 13 year old, also the notes and diaries in your Dad's study scream political work and someone who arranges a lot of religious stuff' and Siffrin trying to wrap their brain around essentially being the Island's version of Mira but with like, a lot of money on top of that.

Other:

They 100% find the body of someone who killed themselves recently when looking around... Somewhere. (too many days ago for them to have possibly stopped this person but definite confirmation that survivors of the Island might've been hit hard by suddenly remembering and having no support)

Probably meet Undine on the rail system while looking for pockets of survivors still on the island - Undine is doing the same on behalf of the monsters trying to set up a new government so um. Yay happy first contact?

Once Sif's group has met up with the Undertale characters there' definitely gonna be some Sif and Frisk friendship stuff, though probably not before Frisk and Bonnie (and MK?) friendship causes mild craziness.

(...Must have Sif, Isa, Toriel and Sans pun off. I can't write for beans but I MUST! For the PUNS!!!!)

Scene where Siffrin learns the Elder guy who's been looking after all the kids in the Village by Mt Ebott (main area the monsters have set up shop so it'll probably be renamed by Asgore 'Home Town' soon), is their grandfather on their mother's side and a bit of family history. - namely that Sif's mother was half Vauguardian (grandma was sickly and died before Sif was even born), that travelling to other countries and marrying 'outside the island' was seen as something very odd (slight xenophobic attitudes to outsiders?) back in Grampa's day, and a lot of little tidbits about Sif's parents like how his mom loved fishheads so so much, it was Sif's dad who cooked amazing Malanga Fritters with green peppers, the two of them had something of a whirlwind romance bonding over making enchanted things together (dad better at ritual work while mom could just boom! Make things off the cuff without thinking too hard about it) and... yeah. Just... Sif finding one living relative who never, ever expected to see any of his relatives again to boot (also Elder immediately being all 'introduce me to your family- Ah so just like your mother you favor big handsome men! Oh and your little one Bonnie is precious!' the second he gets over the weepy 'I cannot believe it' awkwardness because dang it, Sif deserves to find some additional family on this otherwise incredibly heavy trip)

The exploration into the space warped and Sadness filled Island Capital eventially leads to a lot of weird/heavy revelations about the Island for Sif:

Sif on his dad's side is basically the heir to one of THE big families of the Island (they don't like royalty but the Asterion and Chara families were arguably that in all but name).

His dad was very concerned about the heir of Chara because they were never really seen in public despite the Chara family living in/basically owning the Capital.

There was a genuine fear of the Monsters returning and waging war for the sins committed against their ancestors and a union between the Asterion and Chara families was seen by many as 'Universe ordained' protection against this (Cue Sif having a lot of 'trying not to wonder if my country practiced arranged marriage' squick and really appreciating their parents' choice to keep them well away from the Capital/the really religious types here...)

The Chara family was apparently in charge of protecting and aiding any Monsters found outside Mt Ebott (of which there were actually quite a few!) but according to the official paperwork all of them requested to join the rest of the Monsters under Mt Ebott? (All monsters helping the party point blank state that no one, monster or human, entered the Underground from the Surface before Chara fell)

...Notes on how Monster dust is raw Wish Craft in physical form in the Chara house...

Notes in the Chara house on how the Chara heir wasn't particularly liked, to the point they weren't being given a personal name until they did something to earn it.

Horror lab eventually found in the Chara house. Lots of dusty cages, notes on how people injected with monster dust react to it, etc.

Chara's room. Bare and empty aside from a few potted golden flower plants, a few letters and pictures stuck up on the wall (cue Sif doing a double take recognising their childhood name on some of them -Chara was that penpal of theirs that never responded?), and a few loose floor boards which underneath have scribbled escape plans, very expired food rations, carefully drawn and folded pictures of non human figures crying in cages, and bandages.

--- And... yeah. That last part is very much the 'Chara plotline' stuff kicking in hard but trying to think of little puzzle pieces for Sif and Co to find and slowly piece together into a big old ball of 'Wow, I DO understand why this otherwise very nice and did not deserve this country got accidentally ERASED by this kid actually' hints so um yeah.

Hope you like all the world building/stuff before it gets all 'period horror/drama' at the end there and do feel free to use any of this/give feedback as well. I've spent too long typing this out, my brain is pudding and I'm done on this thinky think train for now XD

#isat #in stars and time #undertale #ut #undertale spoilers #isat spoilers #fais fanfic rambles #post game #fusion fic #writing stuff about the island #fanfiction #worldbuilding #having too much fun with the 'what else did everyone forget' thing #islander euphrasia theory brought up in universe (and set aside because yikes that's heavy given the circumstances)#Siffrin is not having a great time (learning a lot though)#Lotta horror aaaa stuff in the last part for Chara backstory #cw suicide mention #...I need stuff for the non Sif parts of the team to do. Outside of Sif I mean #Like Bonnie running off and uncovering 'kid secrets' with Frisk is easy #but still brain blank on the others mostly #eh got nothing for the undertale cast and loop either so later I guess #for now i sleep #oh apologies if bambooche is misspelt. forgot to look it up and too tired to edit it now so hopefully you all know what I'm on about anyway #cw car accident #cw mention of death #cw implied abuse

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randomnameless · 7 months

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Eh, i'm not sure i agree with the point about needing to have scenes where characters who did bad things apologize to the people they've hurt, especially when it can be inferred that they did so off-screen; Iruka wasn't in the war, Kurama and Naruto only go back to the Leaf after a timeskip, and then there's a 12-year timeskip in chapter 700, and Kurama could have easily apologized to Iruka for what he did during either of those timeskips, especially after Naruto reignited his faith in humanity. Characters can change, regret bad things they've done, and apologize to the people hurt by said bad actions, and i don't think it's necessary to have scenes where they list off all their regrets and apologize to everyone they hurt on-screen.

Also, i don't recall there being any proof Obito had anything to do with starting the Blood Mist tradition, though i could be wrong on that.

Also also, i don't remember the scene very well, but it's fine for Naruto to call Kurama a brother after they spent 12 years being on very good terms and the two of them being nothing but helpful to each other; it's bad if he says that he was one of his first bonds, sure, since that's blatantly wrong, but if he just said that he grew a close attachment to Kurama after all they went through in the og series, that seems perfectly fine to me.

In regards to the Raikage scene, Naruto wasn't arguing that he should forgive Sasuke outright, just that he shouldn't go out and kill him because that'd just cause the people in the Leaf who still cared about Sasuke to hold a grudge against the Cloud, which could spiral into something much worse given enough time; he never tells Ay that Sasuke should go completely unpunished for what he did, just that there's no reason to put out a kill-on-sight order on him.

With the convo between Naruto and Nagato, while it is kinda underwhelming, i think it still works decently, though not as well as Obito's; Nagato's worldview had just been shattered by not only being beaten despite considering himself an almighty god above humanity, but also by Naruto, someone whose life he'd just ruined and who admitted to hating him, refusing to act on his anger and wanting to listen to his side of the story, before proclaiming that he'd find a way to succeed where Nagato had failed and end the cycle of hatred. While it's a bit of a stretch that being proven wrong about being above humanity and seeing one counter-example to his theory that people can't truly understand each other and will always fall back on their anger caused him to change his mind as much as he did, i wouldn't call it a “bad” convo.

It's long so I'll put it under a cut!

Sure anon, but imo, it reads as another dark spot against Kishi's manga -

There wasn't enough screentime for the victims to gain reparation, but we always had the adequate screentime to get the villain's backstory?

As I said in an earlier post, we're eons away from Part 1 Gaara who, just after being beaten by Naruto, apologises to Temari and Kankuro while they're taking him away.

The anime and the manga are different, I know, but even Pierrot (who did wonders for this verse!) had time to show Ino'n'Sakura arguing about a trinket to offer to Naruto and Hinata for their wedding, but no time for, idk, while Naruto isn't sure he should ask Iruka if he can act as his "father figure", Kurama trying to resolve the situation and/or thinking he might be the problem because he killed Iruka's parents all those years ago and deciding to apologise for doing so - with Iruka basically rehearsing what he said in the very first chapter, Naruto is Naruto and Kurama is Kurama, he would have came to the wedding regardless of anything, but he is glad Kurama is now someone who can worry for others like Naruto, and not only the person who killed his parents -

I mean, something, anything else than "and they made up off screen during the timeskip when Naruto gave free wifi access to Konoha".

Also, i don't recall there being any proof Obito had anything to do with starting the Blood Mist tradition, though i could be wrong on that.

I've checked the wiki (i know :() but I was under the impression the Bloody Mist era started when Yagura was the 4th Mizukage? And when we know Yagura was manipulated through Genjustu by Obito...

It's funny because in Boruto we have his grandson (?) who says his family was basically ostracised in the Mist because of Yagura's actions - I guess no one told him or the people of the Mist that Yagura wasn't the demon and despot everyone remembers him as, he was acting like this because he was being controlled ? By Obito?

Grandson dies in the Boruto plot, so hopefully, no one will ever give a fuck about this "who did the Bloody Mist" anymore.

My Bad, I misremembered!

However, Naruto's pleas are completely worthless because, while I know "death for death" isn't solving anything, Ay's brother was killed by a member of Akatsuki - the same organisation Konoha (and Naruto himself!) has been hunting for years know.

Sasuke's situation is a bit complex, but usually, the second someone joins the Akatsuki, they're a missing nin, a criminal and are marked as threats who have to be supressed.

Sure Hidan'n'Kakuzu happened before Naruto talked to Pain, but I doubt Naruto stopped by the village of Waterfall to talk to people who loved Kakuzu to "break the cycle of hatred" and not take revenge on Konoha.

I don't remember if it's during this moment or later, but Naruto basically pleads for Ay to apply a double standard because Sasuke is his friend.

This is where Naruto as a manga completely fails, and the issue that brought this entire discussion lol - characters face no consequences for their actions, especially when it comes to dealing with victims of said actions.

In his novel (iirc?) Sasuke behaved like an adult - or the better man compared to Naruto - and ultimately went to Ay to apologise for his arm, the Kage Summit and everything else, and Ay accepted his apologies.

This is the petulant child/tantrum I was talking about, I'm sure if Nagato accepted to listen back the Tsunade instead of Shinra Tensei'ng her to oblivion, he might have had a change of heart, but he was full of himself because of his might in a "might makes right" mindset - as you pointed out, he believed himself to be a god, so he had to be beaten up before finally being willing to listen to people.

I liked the part where Kurama came out during their "discussion", I remember when the raws (a very long time ago lol) were released people were wondering if Kishi made a blooper with Naruto's eyes, but no! Kurama, was also pissed at his story/discourse!

Naruto being the better man/the adult and not bashing his head in was a great sign of maturity from his part* - but then everything failed, because that discussion he had with Nagato about the cycle of hatred and his backstory was... only between him and Nagato.

Nagato solves this issue before it can arisen, but when Choji will ask why his father died, what Naruto is going to tell him? When Sakura will ask for some sort of reparation/justice/consequence against the man who killed both of her parents (assuming they were in the village when it was destroyed), what is going to happen?

Why only Naruto, as a victim, was allowed to get closure/an answer for Nagato's crimes, and not the 48752 other victims who might have had the same grievances?

And again, the cycle of hatred created by Nagato broke, the second he died to resurrect everyone - so there's no hatred to deal with. Naruto had to deal with his own hatred and sadness, accepted to listen to Nagato, and Nagato "undid" all the hatred he created and on top of that, dies, so no one will ever talk him shit for what he did (and undid). That's it.

We don't know if Sakura would have reacted like Naruto, if Shikamaru would, if Chouji would etc etc.

I know the manga is called Naruto and not Choji, but when the answer is supposed to be an answer for the world, it's completely ridiculous that Naruto gives it, and later forgot to tell to the rest of the village what was the result of his discussion, instead basking in the fame of "having defeated Pain".

There's no greated discussion between Naruto and his friends and the village council or whoever about what happened to Pain, what was the "cycle of hatred" and how to prevent future Pains from popping up.

*even if I prefered Asta's version, but in this specific Naruto situation, instead of listening to Nagato's answer and ultimately only talking about Jiraiya this and Jiraiya that and forgetting the 2k people who died due to Nagato's warped vision of "peace", Naruto could have thrown him his og head protector, the thing he received from someone who should, by all means, hate him because the demon inside of him killed his parents - but no, that man put an end to that cycle and became the first person who ever acknowledged him and became his family - and in his trantrum, Nagato killed that man.

of course this entire arc was build around a "child of the prophecy" bullshit - which later needs zombitachi to remind Naruto that no, no one can do anything alone, they need to be surrounded by people and rely on them - so the "you gave up on ending the cycle of hatred but it doesn't mean you should kill anyone who still tries to get rid of it, like Jiraiya, Iruka, random konohasian 86 or even me" since only naruto/nagato had to have the answer, but well, to be fair, that arc and its entire premise was pretty shitty to begin with.

While it's a bit of a stretch that being proven wrong about being above humanity and seeing one counter-example to his theory that people can't truly understand each other and will always fall back on their anger caused him to change his mind as much as he did, i wouldn't call it a “bad” convo.

His theory completely sucked, because wow very surprising, when you kill someone's loved one that someone is going to be pissed.

Sure that's his entire backstory and motto, iirc, some konoha loldiers accidently killed his family (they thought they were other people?) so in the shortcutted Uchiha deduction by Tobirama (tm), the more you love, the more you're going to hate.

Also, the "people can't truly understand each other" theory is rich coming from the guy who hired a psycho like Hidan.

But in general, in Naruto, there's this weird conflation between "understanding" and "accepting" - people can and will understand each other by fighting, and the loser (if he survives) will understand the winner's pov? Or he died, so he accepted it ?

Take post Pain Arc Naruto, if he met, for some reason, Hidan who didn't die before. What was he going to say? To understand with a guy like Hidan? Would he be worried about spreading the cycle of hatred?

Would Naruto tell Shikamaru not to kill Hidan, the guy who nearly had a boner when he executed Azuma?

What did Pain/Nagato (or even Kishimoto in this manga) meant by understanding?

#anon #replies #blogging about naruto lol #i swear i had this post ready since last friday #but i forgot it in my drafts because i wanted to add tags...#anyways maybe it's me because i was a bit young when this arc happened #but imo the Pain arc and its entire building was like the thing that made me reconsider continuing this manga #but i was part of the fandom and those were the 'blessed days'#where you were waiting for raws then translated chapters and then talked to random people on the net and shared opinions and theories and #whatnot about what was going to happen #the entire 'child of prophecy' made me yikes because duh wtf do you mean naruto is a child of prophecy #back when reincarnation nonsense was still far far far away #it was also amidst this era where there was this trend in fandom in general #where sympathising with the vilain was seen as new and not as hamfisted as it is today #but even back then i was like 'why the fuck should i feel bad for this guy who nuked the village of randoms i knew since chapter 1?'#'you killed teuchi and ayame what the fuck are you even talking about teuchi was a guy making ramens'

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