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#grrm: daenerys wedding night was consensual
meanderingstar · 8 months
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the way Daenerys treats Irri in the books is incredibly disturbing and I hate how it's overlooked by both the narrative and the majority of the fandom.
Daenerys uses Irri for sex at least twice over the course of the story, once in Storm and once in Dance. I really, truly cannot overstate how horrific the power imbalance between them is: Daenerys is her khaleesi, her queen and her employer; Irri was formerly a slave in her service and is now her maid with absolutely nowhere else to go. She has evidently been conditioned to believe that displaying absolute obedience to her higher-ups, including sexual services, is her "duty", which Daenerys recognizes and still actively exploits for her own pleasure. This is also why consent between them is utterly impossible – contrary to some asoiaf blogs who claim that consent was not a major issue in this situation (lol) or that Irri freely consented, Irri’s conditioning means that she will never be able to freely consent to someone like Daenerys, who is her employer and holds absolute power over her. Daenerys herself acknowledges this and feels guilty (damning in itself), but ends up using her in such a manner anyway, despite explicitly recognizing that Irri's kisses "tasted of duty" and nothing more.
What makes this even worse is that despite using her in this way in Storm, Daenerys has no issue saying that Irri and Jhiqui (who are her age and have had the same, if not worse, experiences than she has) are "only girls" in comparison to her. She also dismisses their (pretty sensible, imo?) concern about her touching sick and dead people by calling them "utter fools" and saying the Dothraki were only wise when it came to horses. She says all this AFTER sleeping with Irri, which makes it twice as bad - Daenerys considers her a little girl and a fool when it comes to advising her, but still finds it perfectly fine to use her for sex? This condescension extends to their sexual relationship as well, where Daenerys refers to Irri as "the maid", "her handmaid" and "the Dothraki girl" as she has sex with her. It's patronizing, disrespectful and exploitative at best, outright dehumanizing at worst.
While I highly doubt this was Grrm's intention, Daenerys's dynamic with Irri is clearly reminiscent of the horrific way Cersei uses Taena Merryweather. Dany is obviously not as vicious with Irri as Cersei was with Taena but that really doesn't change the fact that she was still a queen exploiting her employee's obedience and conditioned sense of "duty" for her own pleasure, made even worse by the fact that Irri, as a servant and former slave with no family, no connections and nowhere else to go, was 10x more vulnerable than Taena was and certainly more dependent on Dany. It's bizarre how Cersei's treatment of Taena is recognized as fucked up by most of the fandom but Daenerys's treatment of Irri is not, even though the power imbalance between them is infinitely worse. (also: Grrm writing about TWO white queens using their brown maids/ladies-in-waiting for sex is flat-out racist. I'm also extremely uncomfortable with how both wlw interactions are dubiously consensual at best and arguably revolve around Cersei/Dany's relationships with men to some extent: Cersei uses Taena to reenact her trauma by Robert, and Dany not only "pretended it was Drogo holding her...only somehow his face kept turning into Daario's" when she was having sex with Irri, but also explicitly states that "it was Daario she wanted, or perhaps Drogo, not Irri").
Certainly, Daenerys and Irri's dynamic is part and parcel of Grrm's fucked notion of consent and piss-poor writing of wlw relationships (both of which he should be called out for far more than he is, btw), but it doesn't change the fact that in-universe, these are Daenerys's textual actions. Grrm seems to believe that Drogo didn't rape Daenerys (a 13 year old who was forced into marriage) on their wedding night because she said "yes", just like he seems to believe that Jaime didn't coerce Cersei to have sex with him over their own son's dead body because she eventually responded to Jaime's advances, but I clearly recognize them as rape and coercion. The same logic and same standards apply to Daenerys and the way she uses and exploits Irri and she should be judged accordingly.
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You know what's so funny about the Dead Beat Father Brigade and their allegations of 'performative Rhaegar hate'? It's actually the opposite in that hate for Rhaegar is not performative, but the stanning for him is. The amount of times I've seen comments that boil down to 'I didn't even care about Rhaegar but I defend him and like him now because so much of the fandom hates him OR I can't wait for R x L to be depicted as a romance in the books because it would piss off a lot of the the fanbase OR I feel need to defend Rhaegar for the sake of TaRg NaTiOn' is significant.
And it's just like......so you agree? The stanning of him is intellectually dishonest, in bad faith, and a lot of times the result of Oppositional Defiant Disorder? lmaooooo. Please spare me acting like you are in an oppressed minority group for liking a dead beat who got his chest relocated in the one and only battle that loser ever fought in his life.
Not the dead beat father brigade 🤣
You should coin that into the fandom lexicon next to the dead ladies club anon.
Literally what is performative about not vibing with a character because of their canonical decisions, like idgi do we win a prize or something?
The funny thing is the fandom doesn’t even hate him lmao, I’m pretty harsh on Rhaegar and I still acknowledge his character is pretty tragic and his character choices are still interesting. I think everyone I’ve seen comment on Rhaegar that isn’t a rabid stan acknowledges this.
R&L being perceived as a romance wouldn’t piss anyone off lol, most of the fandom expects it? - however just because it’s written as a romance doesn’t mean I’m obligated to like it ?? - GRRM mentioned calling Daenerys & Drogo’s wedding night romantic and consensual and I and most of the fandom has the ability to acknowledge that’s not a fair assessment.
“Childbrides were normalized in those times and GRRM said it’s romantic”…. Well sorry but I still think Khal Drogo was a disgusting piece of shit and Daenerys was a r*pe victim and child bride and could not consent.
Same way I think Rhaegar was a creepy weirdo for signaling out a child and later impregnating her as she could not consent. Don’t get me started on the creepy r*pe tower.
Targ Nation is a joke so I can’t even comment on that lol.
Honestly people can stan whoever they want, it’s okay to accept your fav did some questionable things lmao - a lot of my favs have? I think some of these folks just suffer from Stan brainrot where they can’t accept canon.
I also think if I’m being honest that a lot of people project Rhaegar onto Daenerys and therefore if you hate Rhaegar you hate Daenerys. Which is also pretty funny when you realize a big part of the Rhaegar - Daenerys connection is that she surpasses him in every single way and she was never meant to or expected to certainly not by him that believed he was the prince that was promised and then believed it was his son.
But that’s another conversation for another day.
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wikipediabr0wn · 3 months
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having been like 14 the first time I read asoiaf, and rereading daenerys's first few chapters in AGOT now as an adult is actually so haunting. she was literally 13 being forcibly married off to a warlord and raped repeatedly,,, and it's treated as this romantic thing.
grrm has described dany's wedding night in interviews as being "consensual seduction" which is disgusting. she was a baby.
asoiaf is near and dear to me, but now that my brain has developed a bit more, it's just so obvious to me how horrible and misogynistic grrm is to his female characters. the amount of rape and sexual trauma in the books is super gross and voyeuristic. it makes me sad that i read ab that stuff so young :(
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leahmovedagain · 4 years
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George should just keep his stupid opinions to himself and just finish the damn books
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lawonderlandwriter · 3 years
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To be fair to Tamzin, I think that the Dany that she was originally playing and that she was told about, was pretty different than the Dany that Emilia eventually portrayed. The staff admitted to major rewrite of the pilot, and mentioned Dany's scenes as one that really needed to be gutted and redone.
So I can't help but wonder if the script had been different for Tamzin if she would have taken the role. She mentions a few things about the pilot and contract that make me think whatever vision she had for the character to make it her character, didn't match what the directors and producers wanted; and she felt forced to go against how she saw the character that helped her make the decision to withdraw.
Well, no.
Emilia and Tamzin were given the same script. The script was to show Dany and Drogo "making love" on their wedding night and the scene being consensual. GRRM even said that the scene between Tamzin and Jason was so "hot" that Dany's horse (which is supposed to be female but for some reason was played by a male horse) got aroused and it was visible, making the entire crew crack up.
However, when Emilia joined the cast, she expressed concern about the order of events for her and Drogo's relationship. How, they have this great wedding night but then the next episode, she's crying while he's raping her, then it's back to them making love again.
And when Emilia expressed her concerns, Benioff and Weiss agreed that, while it may work in the books (it doesn't), it didn't work for the visual medium and so they changed the wedding night scene.
And for once, I just gotta say, they were fucking right. They may have ruined the greatest television show of all time, but in this instance, they were right. It makes no sense that George wrote this wedding night seduction scene only for Drogo to go on to not give a shit for all the other nights of their marriage until Dany takes back control.
I've never read George talk about the "other nights" of Dany and Drogo's marriage after the wedding. He is adamant that Drogo doesn't rape Dany on their wedding night, but has been silent about the other nights where Dany cries into her pillow and is so sore she can't even sleep afterward.
What is the point of that? Is it to make Drogo an even worse character? Like, he seduces her to get the marriage consummated and over with, but then he doesn't care because he got what he wanted? Or does George honestly not think the other scenes between Dany and Drogo where she is literally in so much pain she's crying, are rape?
But I digress...
It's interesting that Tamzin was so uncomfortable with the role and how she was persuaded to sign on by the producers anyway because it's exactly what they did with the actress who played Shae. Sibel Kekilli didn't like how Shae treated Tyrion in the books but the producers liked her so much, they changed the character so that she would agree to play her.
How fucking wild is that?
The change with Dany and Drogo's relationship makes sense to me because in the books, it makes little sense why Drogo's approach to sex changes so drastically from one chapter to the next. And the change in the show changes nothing about Dany's character on a personal level or her struggles. And people still ship Dany and Drogo even after watching those scenes.
But with Shae, that is her whole ass character. Shae isn't in love with Tyrion in the books so it adds a layer to Tyrion's character because he knows this. So for them to make that change, gahhh it just whitewashes Tyrion's character so much more. Like, ohh poor me, this woman actually loved me and THEN she betrayed me, and so he gets a free pass for killing her (and his father) and no one calls him mad for it....
LOL
Sorry, this turned into a clusterfuck of a random rant about a lot of things. No clue why the producers fought so hard to keep Tamzin in the beginning when she wanted to pull out and then ended up recasting Daenerys anyway. Maybe they could see her discomfort in the original pilot and realized they had been wrong to persuade her to stay, so they recast. That's my theory at least. As to what made Tamzin so uncomfortable with the character/part? No idea. From what Emilia has said about Jason, he was super protective of her so I can't imagine he wasn't the same way when filming scenes with Tamzin. Perhaps Tamzin was uncomfortable with GRRM calling her sex scene "hot" and she was creeped out by this creepy old man 😂
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The Jaime/Cersei sex scenes are complicated because the author himself has said that the sept scene is not r*pe in the books but at the same time he definitely avoided discussing the problematic issues at presence in interviews...
The fandom says that they both ignore each other's consent and that it is not a Jaime-only problem but the only example they have of that is when she tries to give him a blowjob in the White Tower which i think it's just her emulating him and not an usual thing. At least I believe that because she literally accuses him of not caring about her concerns as you mentioned.
Not only that, she also complains about how he "had to have her" back in AGOT when they were caught by Bran (and there as well, she did not want initially to have sex). And then there is the "not a man to be denied (sex)" quote that she has about Jaime in AFFC...So the pattern is the problem relying on HIM. But this fandom cannot bear the idea that she isn't the main abuser at all times...
I think we just need to accept that GRRM cannot write non-pedophile men and cannot write sex scenes and cannot write healthy relationships.
He’s married off 11 year old children, who started having sex basically right away and then died from childbirth. He’s married off 8 year olds. He’s given us a 13 year old with romantic interest in an adult man, who shared that interest. In one of my posts, I suggested that GRRM thinks he’s writing everyone 4 years older than they are, which I think applies here.
He also called Dany and Drogo’s wedding night consensual and romantic. It was neither. This is basically all three problems. 1) Dany was 13 which makes Drogo a pedophile, 2) he called it consensual when it obviously was not, and 3) he called it a love story which it also was not.
One way to look at the Jaime/Cersei sept scene in light of the above is that GRRM meant to write it as consensual and just completely failed at doing that. It wouldn’t need drastic changes to actually be so, for instance, Cersei could have said “but what about the septons?” and then when Jaime said nevermind them, enthusiastically agreed with him. Instead she says no, she struggles and bleeds, and she is angry afterwards. This is a case Cersei would probably win in modern court.
Now, GRRM definitely isn’t writing this as healthy. Jaime and Cersei are not good for each other. Jaime is a disillusioned knight and Cersei has internalized the sexism she’s dealt with her entire life. When Jaime tells his mother in his dream that he’s a knight and she’s a queen, Joanna cries because that’s not true. They aren’t honorable and powerful, they’re broken.
I definitely think that Jaime looks at Cersei much like he would a wife. Yes, he’s faithful to her, but he also seems to feel sex is his right. With someone like Cersei, whose wanted all her life to be given the same rights as a man, that’s going to lead to her acting the same way as he is. Except when Jaime says no, it’s a no, and when Cersei says no, Jaime does it anyway.
It’s very popular to put Cersei in the villain position so her brothers can be redeemed. To say she framed Tyrion and betrayed Jaime. But Tyrion gets to go to Daenerys and Jaime gets a “redemption” arc, and Cersei gets to be the mad queen. Except Cersei does think Tyrion killed her son and has good reason to, and Cersei has spent her entire life fighting to make a place for herself and is using the only things that society, that her own father, has told her she has. Certainly there’s an appropriate Watsonian explanation for this, but that’s not all we have to look at.
I think Jaime and Cersei will die together. I don’t think it will be Jaime killing her to prevent the burning of a city. I think the show took their plotline and gave it to Jon and Daenerys, which is a large part of why it simply didn’t work. Jon and Dany never had the toxic relationship with their house and with each other that Cersei and Jaime do, nor the trauma related to wildfire.
the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you
I think Jaime will kill Cersei to revenge the already destroyed city. This won’t be a heroic act. This won’t save lives. This will be an extension of Jaime’s trauma and their broken relationship, more violence that doesn’t need to happen. More abuse that Cersei suffers at the hands of a man. 
I’m sure some will see this as Jaime’s redemption. He kills Cersei as after she committed a great crime. Except Cersei is not Jaime’s to judge. His murder is his sister-wife will be a tragedy, not a redemption.
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missharpersworld · 5 years
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i’m listening to Game of Thrones on Audible and just listened to Dany and Drogo’s wedding night where they consummated their marriage and Drogo was so tender and patient with Dany and the whole scene was so tender and CONSENSUAL that I am even more furious with D&D for turning it into Rape in the show I could scream. I remember now how angry I was when I first saw the show. Dany and Drogo’s love story is one that I have loved throughout the years. GRRM wrote it as a true love story.  D&D turned it into rape to love story which is twisted. It was never that in the books. Drogo was always good to Daenerys. From the very beginning. 
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leahmovedagain · 4 years
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Apparently HBO has a documentary about the unaired pilot and most of the cast and grrm commented about what was wrong with it and George said that he didn't like the Dany/Drogo bedding scene in episode one because in his books is not rape because Dany consented the act. I mean is he aware she's a 13 old girl with grow man???
Yeah I’d like to beat him with a stick for saying it was consensual. Just because she was flushed and her heart was pounding (aka her body responding to his touches), she didn’t want to marry him or consummate the marriage at all.
What’s confusing for me is that grrm makes it very very clear in Daenerys first two chapters that 1) she’s terrified of drogo 2) doesn’t want to marry him and 3) that this is not a simple betrothal, but she’s being sold to her new husband.
Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo’s manse.
[...]
The old woman washed her long, silver-pale hair and gently combed out the snags, all in silence. The girl scrubbed her back and her feet and told her how lucky she was. “Drogo is so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars. A hundred thousand men ride in his khalasar, and his palace in Vaes Dothrak has two hundred rooms and doors of solid silver.” There was more like that, so much more, what a handsome man the khal was, so tall and fierce, fearless in battle, the best rider ever to mount a horse, a demon archer. Daenerys said nothing. She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian.
When she was clean, the slaves helped her from the water and toweled her dry. The girl brushed her hair until it shone like molten silver, while the old woman anointed her with the spiceflower perfume of the Dothraki plains, a dab on each wrist, behind her ears, on the tips of her breasts, and one last one, cool on her lips, down there between her legs. They dressed her in the wisps that Magister Illyrio had sent up, and then the gown, a deep plum silk to bring out the violet in her eyes. The girl slid the gilded sandals onto her feet, while the old woman fixed the tiara in her hair, and slid golden bracelets crusted with amethysts around her wrists. Last of all came the collar, a heavy golden torc emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs.
“Now you look all a princess,” the girl said breathlessly when they were done. Dany glanced at her image in the silvered looking glass that Illyrio had so thoughtfully provided. A princess, she thought, but she remembered what the girl had said, how Khal Drogo was so rich even his slaves wore golden collars. She felt a sudden chill, and gooseflesh pimpled her bare arms.
[...]
“She’s too skinny,” Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, “Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?”
“She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal,” Illyrio told him, not for the first time. “Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.” When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.
[...]
She was still looking at this strange man from the homeland she had never known when Magister Illyrio placed a moist hand on her bare shoulder. “Over there, sweet princess,” he whispered, “there is the khal himself.”
Dany wanted to run and hide, but her brother was looking at her, and if she displeased him she knew she would wake the dragon. Anxiously, she turned and looked at the man Viserys hoped would ask to wed her before the night was done.
[...]
Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her. “I don’t want to be his queen,” she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. “Please, please, Viserys, I don’t want to, I want to go home.”
“Home!” He kept his voice low, but she could hear the fury in his tone. “How are we to go home, sweet sister? They took our home from us!” He drew her into the shadows, out of sight, his fingers digging into her skin. “How are we to go home?” he repeated, meaning King’s Landing, and Dragonstone, and all the realm they had lost.
Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio’s estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him. His fingers dug hard into her arm, demanding an answer. “I don’t know …” she said at last, her voice breaking. Tears welled in her eyes.
“I do,” he said sharply. “We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo’s army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will.” He smiled at her. “I’d let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying.”
Dany turned and saw that it was true. Magister Illyrio, all smiles and bows, was escorting Khal Drogo over to where they stood. She brushed away unfallen tears with the back of her hand.
“Smile,” Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. “And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts. Gods know, you have little enough as is.”
Daenerys smiled, and stood up straight.
[...]
Daenerys Targaryen wed Khal Drogo with fear and barbaric splendor in a field beyond the walls of Pentos, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man’s life must be done beneath the open sky.
[...]
Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid……until the day of her wedding came at last.
[...]
Dany had never felt so alone as she did seated in the midst of that vast horde. Her brother had told her to smile, and so she smiled until her face ached and the tears came unbidden to her eyes. She did her best to hide them, knowing how angry Viserys would be if he saw her crying, terrified of how Khal Drogo might react. Food was brought to her, steaming joints of meat and thick black sausages and Dothraki blood pies, and later fruits and sweetgrass stews and delicate pastries from the kitchens of Pentos, but she waved it all away. Her stomach was a roil, and she knew she could keep none of it down.
There was no one to talk to. Khal Drogo shouted commands and jests down to his bloodriders, and laughed at their replies, but he scarcely glanced at Dany beside him. They had no common language. Dothraki was incomprehensible to her, and the khal knew only a few words of the bastard Valyrian of the Free Cities, and none at all of the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms. She would even have welcomed the conversation of Illyrio and her brother, but they were too far below to hear her.
So she sat in her wedding silks, nursing a cup of honeyed wine, afraid to eat, talking silently to herself. I am blood of the dragon, she told herself. I am Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror.
[...]
As the hours passed, the terror grew in Dany, until it was all she could do not to scream. She was afraid of the Dothraki, whose ways seemed alien and monstrous, as if they were beasts in human skins and not true men at all. She was afraid of her brother, of what he might do if she failed him. Most of all, she was afraid of what would happen tonight under the stars, when her brother gave her up to the hulking giant who sat drinking beside her with a face as still and cruel as a bronze mask. I am the blood of the dragon, she told herself again.
[...]
And after the gifts, she knew, after the sun had gone down, it would be time for the first ride and the consummation of her marriage. Dany tried to put the thought aside, but it would not leave her. She hugged herself to try to keep from shaking.
[...]
The last sliver of sun vanished behind the high walls of Pentos to the west just then. Dany had lost all track of time. Khal Drogo commanded his bloodriders to bring forth his own horse, a lean red stallion. As the khal was saddling the horse, Viserys slid close to Dany on her silver, dug his fingers into her leg, and said, “Please him, sweet sister, or I swear, you will see the dragon wake as it has never woken before.”
The fear came back to her then, with her brother’s words. She felt like a child once more, only thirteen and all alone, not ready for what was about to happen to her.
They rode out together as the stars came out, leaving the khalasar and the grass palaces behind. Khal Drogo spoke no word to her, but drove his stallion at a hard trot through the gathering dusk. The tiny silver bells in his long braid rang softly as he rode. “I am the blood of the dragon,” she whispered aloud as she followed, trying to keep her courage up. “I am the blood of the dragon. I am the blood of the dragon.” The dragon was never afraid.
Afterward she could not say how far or how long they had ridden, but it was full dark when they stopped at a grassy place beside a small stream. Drogo swung off his horse and lifted her down from hers. She felt as fragile as glass in his hands, her limbs as weak as water. She stood there helpless and trembling in her wedding silks while he secured the horses, and when he turned to look at her, she began to cry.
[...]
He removed her silks one by one, carefully, while Dany sat unmoving, silent, looking at his eyes. When he bared her small breasts, she could not help herself. She averted her eyes and covered herself with her hands. “No,” Drogo said. He pulled her hands away from her breasts, gently but firmly, then lifted her face again to make her look at him. “No,” he repeated.
It’s just gross and confusing to me. I don’t understand why if he wanted to make it come off as consensual, why did he write her to be absolutely terrified of drogo, have her tremble and cry, make it clear she’s a glorified slave for him, make it clear she doesn’t want to consummate the marriage, to just then turn around and say “Well it was consensual.”
Does he know that just because a persons body responds physically doesn’t mean they’re consenting to a sexual act? Does he know that a child cannot consent to a sexual act? It’s concerning and confusing for me.
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