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#i do think we're definitely getting queerbaited but!
loveyourownsmiilee · 9 days
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I definitely think something is absolutely shifting this season with Budide, I think we're gonna get our first confirmation of Buddie canon this season, IDK what it will be but we're gonna get it. That's the only reason to explain all this massive publicity involving just Oliver and Ryan.
Ryan and Oliver haven’t done publicity together since season 2. They’ve actually been super distanced considering Ryan was in pr jail. Oliver took on most of the publicity for years. And nowwww they’re doing joint publicity again???? When we have been told by both men that this season is one in which both of them will get closer than ever? That they’re gonna go on this lovely journey together??? I mean if we weren’t supposed to get any ideas then why are they glued at the hip and lookin like they’re so happy to be there together? They can’t just stick them together knowing what the fans want and will choose to take away from it if it’s all for nothing. Not only that but even Oliver is out here showing Ryan off as much as he can when he’s refrained from doing so since s3!!! Like this man is afraid of saying or doing anything to even put the idea of queerbaiting in peoples minds. So if he’s doing it then that fear has been removed and he’s doing so happily because he knows what’s coming. And he’s genuinely getting us ready. I’m honestly shaking bc this season everything feels completely different especially those two together. It’s happening. They’re literally preparing us. The showrunner, the writers, the boys. They’re getting us ready yall 🥹🥹🥹
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neonscandal · 3 months
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Thanks for your posts and metas, @neonscandal .... Before I found your blog, actually I ship tododeku and kiribaku. But thanks to you, I became bakudeku shipper (until now). Your metas are amazing and always based on canon. Sorry, I'm not good with words, but I hope you know how great your blog is (you are definitely one of my favorite tumblr blog). 💐🌷
And WOW these last 10 - 15 chapter, really are the best. Even my mutuals who are anti-bkdk can't deny Bakugou and Midoriya's bond anymore. Also, love Uraraka and Toga's bond....
Do you think it's possible that at the end of BNHA, Bakugou and Midoriya have ambygous relationship (kinda like Tiger and Bunny)....? I know it could be hard to be canon in shounen series.....
P.s Do you think SatoSugu (from JJK) is queerbaiting?
⚠️ Vague spoiler warnings through chapter MHA 410 at best. Covers JJK S2 with a vague mention of a character who pops up later in the manga.
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It's funny you say that because I also love a good tododeku or kiribaku situation. Like yea, people have their OTP but... realistically? Characters should be just as messy as people in real life. ✨ They're going to date around before things fit together with that OTP, right? At least that's how I look at it. So I love exploring offshoots.
You are far too kind in these rough times but I appreciate you saying that (and reaching out). The swarm of asks lately have been so funny. I tend to carve out time to address them quicker than some of the other things bouncing around my head (literally, the exact opposite happens with fic updates 🥺) so I'm just happy I'm writing something. If someone else enjoys it then that's the whipped cream and caramel on my sundae.
DUDE. I hadn't read 409 or 410 yet because holiday chaos but I feel like we're beyond allegations at this point haha ALTHOUGH, I didn't see the cliffhanger from 410 coming at all so I wonder what that means for the larger story.. Got any theories?
Regarding endgame... honestly the last two chapters gave me a little anxiety. "This is our tale?" Too good to be true. Especially when we know from chapter one "this is a story of how I became a great hero". Also, I've had some thoughts since 406 about how their connection is being framed up which I haven't had time to write but it feels like a lot of fanservice for Horikoshi (and subsequent editors, etc) to not commit. Additionally, in all the ways this story subverts the typical formula for shonen, it would also feel like a fumbled opportunity to turn everything on its nose with such a wildly popular series. So I'm holding out hope but conservatively preparing for one of them to just... not make it even if we get a confession *shudders in Supernatural flashbacks*.
I hope this makes sense as I struggled to recommend stories where this wasn't the case when asked about BL. In my opinion, good representation in mainstream stories (gender identity, orientation, race, religion, disability, etc.) is when, whatever makes a character different isn't their whole identity. Specifically in the context of more traditional stories (not centered on BL for instance), they should be involved if not just as integral to the plot as any other character wherein their diversity isn't sticking out like a sore thumb. But even that characterization requires nuance which is what makes it so hard to articulate? Maybe it's simpler to say that their character arc shouldn't just be based around identity. As a short answer to your question, I don't think that SatoSugu is queerbaiting. I think they are authentically and intrinsically coded to one another in subtext and out loud straight from Akutami but that, sometimes, relationships don't work out or love is unrequited. They may not have had the same feelings despite their inherent complement to one another and that's okay.
As above, characters should be just as messy as real people and that's what makes what didn't happen between them all the more tragic because it's heartbreaking in how relatable it is (not the cult leading and murder though). Seems like a convenient answer from a delulu shipper unless you take into consideration how Kirara Hoshi's identity is given the same level of subtlety. They aren't defined by their identity nor are the characters jarred by some particularly grandiose reveal nor are they perturbed by the nature of their connection to Hikari. I'm by no means an expert but I think that these characters are executed well in the sense that they have a complexity that doesn't hinge on what would otherwise make them different. They aren't "othered", it's just a fact of who they are and the story continues. It's a facet of who they are without cheaply being all they are. With Gege Akutami's own pronouns not expressly confirmed, perhaps that informs the care around those with differing identities.
I haven't seen Tiger & Bunny yet but now I know what to check out next!
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randomjreader · 2 years
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Thank you @azfellco for explaining to me the situation
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Honestly, if you want my opinion? I think this whole thing is so stupid, because how is it that after all these months Kit STILL has queerbaiting allegations??
First of all, STOP. ASSUMING. KIT'S (OR ANYONE'S). SEXUALITY. PLEASE. How many more times must the poor guy say that he's comfortable with his own sexuality and just doesn't want to disclose it to the public for personal reasons for people to LEAVE HIM ALONE. Like my god, how can someone watch a show like heartstopper then immediately start contributing to this toxic culture of forcing people out of the closet for your own selfish reasons? There's literally a whole storyline of how badly affected Charlie Spring was after being outed, but that CLEARLY flew over their heads for some reason. It's ridiculous. We're not his friends. We're not his family. We. Are. Just. Fans. We are entitled to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about his personal life.
Secondly, if for all those who are just so insistent that Kit just HAS to be straight because he held hands with someone of the opposite sex, and therefore should not be playing a queer character, do you even hear yourselves? I've already spoken in depth about my views on straight actors playing queer characters, my general message being that I think it's completely fine so long as they have been handling it respectfully and giving the community the respect it deserves, something I believe Kit has done wonderfully. But more than that, what's up with this weird assumption that someone is definitely heterosexual if they are in a heterosexual relationship??? There is more to sexuality than gay or straight. Take Maia for example. She is openly part of the LGBTQ community, so are y'all going to tell her she's straight and has been lying the whole time, simply because of that few second clip? I DIDN'T THINK SO. This is literally just promoting bi erasure, pan erasure, erasure of any sexuality that isn't simply attracted to the same sex (AND ON BISEXUAL VISIBILITY MONTH TOO???). Once again, how did you watch heartstopper, hear nick nelson say "I still like girls, but I like boys too." AND THEN GO AND DO THIS. I'm convinced some of these people just didn't watch the show and became fans through tiktok edits or something.
Finally, say that they are dating. So what? How does Kit and Maia's personal relationship affect Kit's job as an actor in heartstopper in any way shape or form? Were these people expecting Joe and Kit to get married or something? Or for neither of them to be in relationships with other people ever? I know that they're both the perfect portrayals of Nick and Charlie, but at the end of the day THESE ARE CHARACTERS THAT THEY ARE PLAYING. None of the relationships in shows or movies, romantic especially, need to be translated to real life for us to enjoy the work. If you're that type of person, then by that logic Kit and Maia are technically bringing on screen romance off screen, since they're starring in ACGGTTAT together. Seriously, you can't expect actors to bring every single romantic relationship they portray on screen into real life, that's entirely unrealistic. Also, while I understand the curiosity behind our faves' relationship statuses, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't guilty of that, at the end of the day it's really none of our business (going back to the point of how we are just fans and are owed nothing by public figures). If they're dating, that's great, I'm happy for them. If they're not? Also cool, we love to see a wholesome friendship. Speculate if you must, but don't go digging around the internet for evidence or god forbid, start harassing Kit or Maia about this. Just keep your theories to yourself or at most talk about it casually in a little chat with friends or something. Let's not blow this up into a huge thing and just let them be yeah?
So that's my two cents on this whole situation. Dating or not, I can't wait to see them both in ACGGTTAT, and ofc, I can't wait for season 2 of heartstopper <3
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amethystina · 1 month
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Shipper Tag Game
I was tagged by @a-very-fond-farewell! Thank you so much, darling! Though I'm not sure how good I'll be at it x'D
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1. What ship were you completely obsessed with when you were a teenager, but now you don’t care anymore?
Honestly? None. While I did have some ships I was interested in, I wasn't obsessed with any of them. And I kind of still care about them? In a very nostalgic way. So I kind of fail at both parts of this question x'D
2. Which ship would you consider your first one?
If I'm going with the one I got really invested in? Destiel tbh. Mainly because I was very much a late bloomer who didn't really discover fandom and fanfics until I was 20-21. I mean, I HAD read some before that but since I didn't have internet in my apartment until I went to university (I was too poor xD), it wasn't easy for me to access them. Shipping is just easier when you have internet.
But, once I had it, I DID revisit a couple of ships that were technically older than Destiel that I had never really gotten into before that, many of them from video games, anime/manga, and books I'd read. But they were all overshadowed by Destiel so that's the one I remember as my first.
3. Your first fanfic belonged to which couple?
Are we talking reading or writing? I guess I'll do both?
Reading: I think it was a Zell Dincht/Seifer Almasy one from Final Fantasy VIII that a friend printed out on actual paper and gave to me back when I was 16 or 17 (again, no internet). And I honestly can't say why he picked that pairing xD (I'm definitely more of a Squall/Seifer girlie now)
Writing: Sterek. Because it felt interesting but also not too intimidating. And I also just like werewolves?
4. Do you remember the first couple you saw a fanart over?
Not really, no. Since I've been drawing for so long I spent more time looking for art than fanfics when I was younger so I probably stumbled over a lot of them without even knowing it.
5. Did you ever get into ship discourse?
Not if I can help it, no. I tend to stay away from that sort of thing as best I can and just let people ship whatever they want. It's honestly none of my business.
6. Did you use to have any no-otp or have it currently?
I have several, mostly based on what I find triggering or squicky. But I don't announce them publically because that's just rude to those who DO ship them. And, as stated above, I try not to get involved in what other people ship or don't ship.
7. Who were the couples in the last fanfic you read?
Choi Yoon/Yoon Hwa Pyung from The Guest. Because who doesn't love some pining and Catholic guilt?
For real, though, I read very few fanfics right now and actually had to go check my history on AO3 to figure this out x'D The second to last fanfic was a Strangers From Hell one. And the one before that was a Guardian one!
8. Currently do you have any OTPs?
Several. Honestly too many to list x'D I'm one of those people who don't really let go of ships I like. They're not always at the forefront of my mind, though, but I remember them fondly and coo a little when I think of all the fond memories.
But if we're talking about the ones I'm the most focused on right now I'd say Kang Yo Han/Kim Ga On from The Devil Judge, Yoon Sa Wol/5-8 from Black Knight (currently struggling with chapter 6 x'D), the aforementioned Choi Yoon/Yoon Hwa Pyung from The Guest, and Shen Wei/Zhao Yunlan from Guardian.
9. Is there any couple that, to this day, you are extremely mad about not getting together?
Sterek. But that has less to do with my dedication to the characters and more to do with the queerbaiting and how extremely shittily Jeff Davis handled that whole thing. To use the Sterek shippers for publicity and hint that maybe it could happen, only to turn around and do everything within his power to not make it happen?
I take that personally, not because I have a huge stake in Stiles and Derek as characters, but as a queer person who, for once, thought that maybe we would actually get to see a couple we really liked get together, and then didn't.
I had more hope for Sterek than I ever did for Destiel, which technically had more in-canon queerbaiting, because the people behind Teen Wolf did their damndest to give me hope. Only for me to be ignored and basically told I was being gullible for ever thinking it would happen.
And that's a betrayal I'm probably never going to forgive.
10. Is there any ship you used to dislike but now you think they are kind of interesting?
Not... really? I can't think of any, at least. But that could be because I always have a pretty good reason for disliking the ships I dislike. As mentioned, it's usually based on triggers and squicks and those don't really change. So my opinion on ships I dislike aren't likely to change, either.
11. Do you have any ship that, in the past, was considered normal but now you would be cancelled over?
I mean, considering the social climate right now? Even Sterek qualifies because Stiles was underage when I started shipping them and Derek most certainly was not xD That said, I always prefer the fics when Stiles had time to turn 18 before any of the sexy stuff happened.
12. What was your favourite crack ship?
Okay, so, I've actually read a lot of fics for ships I don't actually ship, just for research purposes. Like, I find it FASCINATING to watch what other people like, how they choose to write about the things they like, and how they decide to portray the characters. Basically, I like to analyse authors just as much as I like to analyse characters. It's a hobby of mine.
And one of my absolute favourites was reading fanfics for Newt Scamander and the original Percival Graves from the first Fantastic Beasts movie (Sidenote: She-who-must-not-be-named is an asshole and this is not an endorsement of her franchise or shitty beliefs). And why I loved that so much was because the fics were about THE ORIGINAL Percival Graves who, technically, was never IN the actual movie (he might not even be alive anymore?). Like, it was Grindelwald all the time. We never actually SAW the original Percival Graves, just Grindelwald's impersonation of him.
And I just had so much fun reading various authors' takes on this character who was never actually seen but, based on Grindelwald's impersonation, can sort of be hinted? Because he must have done a good enough job of it that the people around Graves didn't notice? It was like an anthropological dig of Percival Graves transpiring right before my eyes and since I got on the train pretty early, I could see authors being inspired by each other and how the fanon developed over time. 10/10 would recommend if you're interested in watching a fandom evolve.
(also, some of the fics were so fucking good. So there's that, too xD)
13. Who is the couple you read most fanfics of?
I'm not entirely sure if it's Destiel or Stony, but definitely one of them (Sterek is most likely in third place). Partly because there are just so many to partake in (those fandoms are HUGE), but also because they've been with me for so long and numbers accumulate. That said, I haven't read any for those ships in a long, long time. But considering how many fics I devoured during the time I was the most active in those fandoms? It's going to be difficult for any of the ones I'm currently into to catch up.
Also because I tend to be in much smaller fandoms now >_>
14. What do most of your ships usually have in common?
WELL. A while back I would have said that even if there are some enemies-to-lovers tropes and antagonising in some of them, they're all mostly unproblematic and pretty healthy.
... I can't really do that anymore, can I? x'D
I mean, Kang Yo Han is problematic all on his own, but even HE is a green flag compared to Seo Moon Jo. That fucker is just a straight-up psychopath x'D
A more serious answer: An interesting dynamic. Which sounds like a given, but is actually a bit more tricky than that. Because I've only gotten more and more picky over the years. I've actually spoken to my wife and friends about this, because I've seen a pretty noticeable shift in my own shipping practices lately.
I gather fewer and fewer new ships and that's not because I watch/read fewer things, but because I'm getting pickier about them. There has to be an extra spark that interests me, often connected to the characters' personalities and how they play off each other, while, before, a bit of chemistry was enough.
But that also makes me more versatile, I guess? Because I focus less on tropes and more on characters and dynamics. But that also makes it harder to spot similarities xD
15. What do you absolutely hate in a ship?
I mean, hate is a strong word. But, again, it would mostly be connected to my triggers. I don't like ships that are too abusive and unbalanced. A little bit of danger is fine, but things like abuse, infidelity, grooming, non-con etc. don't work for me, personally.
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I don't really know who to tag so just do it if you want to! :D
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irispurpurea · 9 months
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good omens Discourse below the cut
Like… for the most part I’m confident that this is their love story. I can see and appreciate the intent behind saying “I don’t want to label it because I support people being able to headcanon them as whatever they want, but this is definitely a love story.” (And I don't think DT's comments in that interview are out of line with that). I trust that we’re not being strung along or set up to be pointed and laughed at for seeing this as a love story (even though some media outlets seem to be pointing and laughing anyway). I trust that they'll do right by Aziraphale and Crowley, and not back down from showing us the depth of their love for one another, however that love may be expressed. It's there, it's real, it's explicit. It's not subtext, it is the text.
But. There's still a part of me that can't help but think. Even though we have a poster where their wings form an actual heart, and another that literally reads "Angel hearts Demon" and playlists of their favorite love songs, plus an entire season 1 where the deep love and affection they have cultivated for each other over millennia is explicitly shown and explored, including with a 30-minute montage of the development of their relationship. Even with all that... it won't be enough. In the sense that there will still, after all that, be enough room left for people to say "sure, they love each other, but not like that."
And I don't think that's the fault of anyone involved in the show. I don't think this is or has ever been queerbaiting, in that I don't think they're deliberately skirting the line between implicit and explicit in order to attract a queer fanbase without ever following through on the textual promise of queer love. They have followed through, they have made their love explicit, and there's not much more explicit they can get about how much they love each other and how much they mean to each other. But there will always be people who, no matter what's on the screen in front of them, refuse to see the obvious because it doesn't meet their narrow, limited definitions and expectations. And it is deeply frustrating that, in telling the story they want to tell in the way they want to tell it, and in promoting the story the way they want to promote it, it still leaves room for people to say "yes they love each other, but not like that."
All this to say I understand the frustration. I feel it too. But in this case, I feel more frustrated with the people who refuse to see the obvious than the people who are trying to tell a love story they way they want to tell it.
And if season 2 airs and we still have to fight people who call it an "imagined romance" or a "bromance" or say we're just projecting... I won't be surprised but I will be very sad.
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chirpsythismorning · 1 year
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I dont even think the tag is dead at all tbh. We were really spoiled last summer with 2k post per day, and something crazy happening everyday like Mikhailgate, scriptgate, sock anon or people impersonating Ross duffer, but if you check most tags on this app, that's rarely the case. The thing is, it's been a year since season 4 came out and we're still getting around 300 posts per day and I need people to realise how crazy that is. Before season 4 the tag had like 5 k followers and there could be days without a single post. The fact that it's been a year and we still surpass 200 posts, AND we've already made it through the most content drought phase of the hiatus (since filming is about to begin and we'll increase the daily posts again) is crazy. This tag is still very much active, even for a show that hasn't released any new content for a year. And also AO3 is still active. The fact that for a whole year, there's been writers who still update fics or create new ones everyday is something I'm not used to coming from other smaller fandoms.
I get it's a bit more boring right now and we are looking back to the may-august craze, but we've already made it through the worst and we only need to hold on for one more month
This is definitely the best way to look at it!
I think I’m also maybe sad bc a lot of familiar faces aren’t as active, like some folks I remember seeing daily are gone. Which is fine!
And even despite that you’ll see posts in the tag get like hundreds of likes, so there are definitely a lot of people still lurking just not posting. Which is also fine!
It’s so true though that we are a lot more active than we realize.
Tumblr in general I used to think of as like a no man’s land pre-s4 bc it tends to really only be active in specific fandoms where like the unity is on point bc the content is just rolling in.
So many fandoms reside here at a point, but dwindle over time, and I feel like we are very fortunate to have made a big space here bc it is a cool platform when you have a lot of people that like a certain thing and want to talk about it.
And we’re fortunate enough to be so massive and not only that but this is sort of just the beginning. Imagine how many followers we’ll gain leading up to s5, during and after…? Or the aftermath of people coming here to look at theories and be like YOU GUYS WERE RIGHT! All the queer fans who kind of talked down on us (understandably) for potentially falling for queerbait, joining in and being like wow this is surreal, it finally happened. It’s going to be magical.
For now I guess it just makes me wonder if I should take a break too?? Like seeing yourself over and over in the tag is almost a wake up call that I should step back like everyone else is for the time being? Bc like idk if it’s maybe annoying to see the same person over and over? Or if it’s just the reminder of how inactive things are and that’s what makes people step back too?
Not even a bad thing necessarily like you said, bc this is still an unprecedented case of a fandom being quite active despite the circumstances.
Honestly though, even if there isn’t much news going into May and in the couple months after it, beyond like the bare minimum of what we’re expecting, I’ll try to embrace it and maybe step back or even focus on more detailed posts instead of the day to day fodder.
I also hate myself for this, but I rarely go in the top posts tag??? I’m always like living in the recent posts part of it and that’s probably also the problem 😭
So reminder to anyone that’s like me who does the same, we gotta support more of us that have top posts too bc I will literally remember the top posts exists, go there, find absolute gems (obviously it’s top posts???) and then be like why the fuck don’t I come here more often??? That’s another way I could probably curb my disappointment about us not being as active as I’m used to. And it’s super simple.
There’s a lot of stuff like that I could do better at to contribute to the solution of this being a better experience for myself and other still active on here!
Thanks for the pep talk anón 😇🙏
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ladyasc · 5 months
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Here’s a thought I’ve been thinking since I saw a post mentioning it two days ago, which you get to have sent to you because you’re my only skz mutual, and it made me think about ethical RPF/shipping dynamics:
Jisung and Minho are the Dan and Phil of K-pop. They both have/had marketing that heavily relied on their relationship, continue to deal with speculation about their relationship (even if it’s never publicly talked about the way Dan and Phil have talked about it), and have referred to each other as soulmates in public and have their own unique dynamic even when other people are around.
They also both made very loud references to their relationship today specifically (Minho talking about sleeping with Han in front of a large crowd of people, Phil referencing a very old very famous phan post in front of God and Twitter).
To top it all off, they have both been center points in their respective career fields on discussions around ethical shipping of real people, and the effects of it on the people involved. To me, Dan and Phil’s story and what they’ve shared about how shipping them affected them should serve as a caution for people as Stray Kids gets more popular and Han and Jisung get thrust more into the spotlight (particularly in front of Western audiences).
I am honored. Please, never hesitate with this stuff. I think about it all the time, and I really love discussing it with people.
You already know I write essays. Um. So. Enjoy? This is going to be totally just in the order that these thoughts come out of my head, so apologies if I get incoherent or mix a metaphor or send train of thought off the tracks at any point. Please feel free to hold me up to any holes in this argument, should you see them.
Right off the bat I have to cop to not fully understanding the Dan & Phil comparison--YouTube is a utility rather than a social media platform for me, so I've never really been up on those creator fandoms. My basic understanding is that they are/were shipped a lot, and loudly, and that (comparatively recently, perhaps?) one of them did disclose that they had/have been "involved" with each other, but that--among other things--the shipping made them really uncomfortable and for a long time stopped at least one of them from coming out. If I've got any of that wrong, please correct me.
That being said, if the lesson to be learned from them is that shipping real people--even if they are fully aware of and participate in the promotion of it--can materially effect their lives in negative ways, and people need to be cognizant of that, then yes, I absolutely agree.
Something I see a lot in my creepabouts on Twitter (but also on Tumblr, tbh, and we're not going to talk about YouTube because I used up today's 'rage against the world' allotment while at the office this morning) is a very black and white mentality about candid moments of idol participation in shipping. It runs in intensity from, 'they participate in it candidly, therefore they're totally cool with it as a running joke, carry on' to 'they participate in it candidly, therefore this is the clearest glass closet ever, when will they finally just fuck on camera and put the rest of us out of our misery?' but the defining factor is that participation is seen as wholesale, blank cheque approval.
And here's the part where I digress for a moment to take out my most medium-sized soapbox: a common refrain heard from people supporting the proliferation of idols participating in ship-based fanservice is the phrase, 'real people can't queerbait.' This is a disingenuous argument when applied to idols specifically, whether the people who make it realise that or not. Here's the definition for queerbaiting from Wikipedia, emphasis mine:
Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but do not depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ+ representation. Source.
The phrase 'real people can't queerbait' entered the zeitgeist in the past decade or so as a reaction to the consequences of fans calling out actors (primarily, although also some musicians) engaging with queer culture, or doing queer things in public. Its intention is to reinforce that people just living their lives, operating under their own steam, is not the work of a third hand, it's not a fiction, and especially, CRUCIALLY, that no one owes anyone else information about their sexuality--how do you know they're queerbaiting? they might be queer, they might be struggling with their sexuality, they might be straight and they're just into queer shit (because we're awesome). An actor from a popular television show in the US was forced to out himself over allegations that he was profiting from 'queerbaiting.' Real people can't queerbait -- that is how this argument applies.
But here's the thing: idols aren't 'real people.' No, I don't mean that literally--obviously they're human beings just like anyone else--but the personalities you see, even in candid moments--those are constructions. They're created personas. That's not to say they're 100%, entirely fake--the best stories have a basis in reality, and certainly there are some idols who come off less polished than others--but ultimately their literal job is to be entertaining in the way fans like best. Every second you see an idol with a camera or a crowd in front of them is a second that they are the paid employee of a company with a marketing department, and that marketing department has a strong incentive to give the fandom exactly what it wants.
This is extremely different to Western actors or musicians. They are (typically) not employees, they are employers or freelancers. Certainly they have publicists, and certainly their record labels or agencies have publicists who advise them, but they make or break themselves. Marketing yourself in a certain way, or being advised to do so, holds a massively different power dynamic to that of an idol as an employee of a major company like JYP being marketed as a certain kind of person or as a participant in a certain kind of wink-and-nudge relationship.
Real people can't queerbait. That's true. But idols are less 'real people' in this sense and more improv actors being given background from their 'directing' company employers.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled response to this question:
Yeah, MinSung are certainly aware of the fact that they're shipped, and they absolutely do candidly play into it on purpose. They do it in different ways -- Han tends to be reactive, making cute comments about their behavior with each other that are obvious jokes (like talking about how they are/should get married), while Lee Know's more likely to try to start shit (taking every opportunity to feel Han up on stage, announcing that they slept together--no, no, in the same room. obviously. gosh, where was your mind going?) This seems to line up fairly neatly with how they present themselves in general: Han is gently playful and prone to exaggeration, Lee Know gets off on subverting expectations and sowing chaos.
I'm not completely cynical -- even though I disagree that this kind of behavior (and I'm speaking here specifically about behavior with intentional romantic/sexual under or overtones, not any display of affection between two people) isn't queerbaiting, I don't think that it's maliciously intentioned or made from whole cloth. Like I said, the best fictions have a basis in truth, and there's a lot of reason to believe that these two are genuinely very (perhaps annoyingly, to those forced to coexist with them) close. And, I mean, in the case of Lee Know running his mouth over the weekend: they did actually sleep in the same room at a minimum, so the 'bait' is largely a matter of framing.
I'll only use this metaphor for one paragraph before I spare you, but: in scripted scenarios, the 'bait' is often set up to look realistic, like there are compelling reasons (story building, direction choices) to believe it may lead to a real reward (call this the 'real worm on a hook' scenario). Whereas in improvisational contexts like kpop ship dynamics, there are compelling reasons (like it being a known marketing tactic, the vast majority of fans not buying into it) to believe it's very pretty and also very pretend (call this the 'sparkly green rubber worm on a hook' scenario.) Me? Yeah, I write ship fanfiction. I like the idea of a world with sparkly green worms in it. I like talking with other people about what they sparkly green worm-filled world might look like. And hell, maybe there are sparkly green worms. Seems unlikely, but not impossible. I mean, probably not.
(But maybe...?)
It's not a perfect metaphor, okay?! I said I'm moving on!!
However, and I think this is where I'm coming back [insert gif of old Rose from Titanic beginning the exposition for her sexy romp with an actor I honestly don't get the fuss about] to your original comparison: the conflation of active participation with approval comes with a lot of potential dangers. And a major aspect of this is that confirmation bias really undervalues the flip-side of active participation: active distancing. Han and Lee Know do this as well. For every instance you can find of them talking about how they're married, or dating, or playing along with those Pick an Option signs fans carry at concerts, you can find examples of a member saying they should date and one or both of them saying something along the lines of 'ew, no,' or one or both of them insisting, 'it's friendship,' or looking extremely uncomfortable when a fan steps out of line and insinuates (or flat out says) something ship-related in a fan call.
Active participation is an act of pure agency at 'best' and an act of direction at 'worst.' And it's not really possible, as a fan, to parse what is a result of personal agency and what is a result of straight direction. And the reality is that, most of the time, it's probably both. That means it's a really, really fraught thing to assign significant logical weight to when trying to develop a theory of the world.
Active distancing, likewise, can be the result of pure agency or the result of direction. But unlike participation, distancing--regardless of its impetus--is a protective measure that should, at a minimum, signal that a line somewhere has been identified and overstepped. Unfortunately, the disregard of active distancing and participation's subsequent conflation with approval leads to fans getting way fucking out of hand.
Oh, fuck. I'm about to bring the worm metaphor back. Sorry, this is what happens when I write stream of consciousness.
Here's the thing: sparkly green worms are fun for fish fans to fantasize about, and you know what--they're probably pretty fun to use, too! You can spend all day fishing with real worms, but that feels a bit cruel maybe. You can spend all day fishing with rubber worms that are made to look like real worms, but fish have seen that shit before. I mean, it's fine, but eh. But sparkly green rubber worms?! Come on, even if you don't catch anything it's amusing to see it glittering under the water, and who knows--maybe you'll catch something with a brighter imagination than the guppies who like the real stuff.
Which is to say: 'baiting' for business and 'baiting' for pleasure probably aren't always mutually exclusive. You might do it cause it's good for business, but honestly its probably also amusing -- at least in low doses -- to watch people lose their minds over your chemistry and your *checks notes* longing glances? (You should blink more; your contacts will dry out.) Lee Know, especially, seems to be this type of personality--see again: chaos agent.
But what if you're having a great time fishing with your sparkly green rubber worm and you catch a piranha? And then another one. And another one, and suddenly those fuckers are growing legs and chasing you around the dock trying to gnaw your foot off (yes, I know piranhas don't hunt people and evolution doesn't work that way, let me live a little!) Man, you were having a great time when it was on your own terms, but now you've uncorked something and no amount of shouting 'it's a fake fucking worm!! it's FAKE!! stop it, I need that foot for driving to the hospital later!!!!' will ever get them to stop.
Okay, now I'm really, honestly done with the bait worm metaphor.
I want to be very, very clear: I do not in the least bit blame idols who actively participate in ship dynamics for the apeshit behavior that it brings out in some fans. Again--looking at them as employees, as improv actors, it's their directors and their employers who are at fault for pressing too hard. And again--I don't consider affectionate words or behavior to constitute 'baiting' or playing into ship dynamics, and it's certainly not any idol's fault that people can be horrifically narrow-minded when it comes to what platonic affection can look like. Let People Have Friends, Yes Even Friends They Cuddle and Sometimes Literally Share a Bed With, 2023.
And yes, ultimately, the massive danger of conflating active participation with approval is that lines get overstepped so, so quickly, and we do not know shit about these peoples' personal lives. Certainly, queer actors can be cast in queerbaiting films and television shows, just as straight actors can. Certainly, queer idols can do gay ship fanservice, just as straight idols can. Certainly, it is absolutely possible that MinSung are, have been, or one day will be romantically interested in or involved with each other, just as it is that they're both straights who've never had a blinking thought otherwise in their whole lives and this is just a weird quirk that's developed in their job description thanks to them platonically adoring the shit out of each other and being secure enough in their sexuality to look at another dude and say, '...damn, okay!'
Certainly, in not a single one of these circumstances is it logical to conflate participation with wholesale approval, and wholesale approval with reality, and reality with an invitation to, among other things: 1) make wild assumptions about strangers' personal lives to their faces, 2) encourage others to do the same, 3) act hostile toward anything they see as interfering with 'reality,' and thereby 4) creating an environment in which--actual reality nonwithstanding--the subject is trapped and has free agency actually stripped from them. For an example, the shippers who lost their goddamn minds when V from BTS was seen with Jennie from BLACKPINK. The number of insane theories fans came up with, the amount of hate Jennie got for daring to come between V and the shippers' chosen BTS pairing mate, is nauseating.
And with Dan & Phil, feeling crushed back into the closet, feeling like your private life has become a commodity that people will fight for viciously... man.
This has been a very long way of saying that I agree with you, 100%. Unfortunately, I don't know if there's an actionable way of making people take that caution, because fantasy is a hell of a drug and hindsight is 20/20 as they say, but surely this sparkly green worm is the real deal and everyone should know that, right?
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queerxqueen · 2 years
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Byler being queerbait - a deliberate dangling of the possibility of a queer relationship to string the audience along with no intention on delivering - doesn't make sense when you consider that most of this potential baiting would be happening in real time (june) between vol1 and vol2 (see: the massive increase in byler shippers). A gap that was never meant to exist bc season 4 was meant to be released as one thing. So idt the duffers deliberately wrote this stuff in with no intention of payoff bc they weren't planning this gap of ambiguity ahead of time and I think that's skewing with our perceptions. I think vol2 will build up byler even more and it will make more sense and feel less "baity" when watched all together as one season
I have a few Q's about queerbaiting in my inbox right now so hopefully this addresses all of them.
HmmMmMM. So.
Is Byler Queerbaiting?
The thing is, it's so impossible to determine whether it's queerbaiting until we actually see the ending. I'm honestly hoping it's really just a slow burn romance that we'll see blossom in Volume 2 but until we see what happens, there's no saying whether it's queerbaiting or not!
We don't know how much Byler will be built up in volume 2. We know that they're going to somehow address Will's feelings, so we are getting a canonically queer character which is great... But we don't know what Mike will do, which is where the real potential for queerbaiting lies, when they've hyped up Byler on social media and queercoded Mike through so many little details.
Even if it's not intentional on the Duffers behalf, even if they intended the season to be released all at once, it can definitely be intentional on Netflix's behalf.
Yes, this season is "unprecedented" in length and the Duffers said something about wanting to get it to us sooner, but there's no way this wasn't in huge part a marketing decision. They wanted to stretch out the release with rising competition in streaming. Whether this marketing decision is queerbaiting depends entirely on what happens next. If Mike rejects Will and ends up with Eleven and that's it? Then fuck yeah. They drew out the wait to appeal to queer people who might have hope based on the clear clues they've laid out. At this point, there have been too many posts about Byler from the cast and Netflix-affiliated accounts, and too much evidence from every season, and I would definitely feel queerbaited.
But if Byler is canon? I respect the hell out of the choice, and it makes total sense from a marketing perspective. They're hooking the homophobic viewers who might have boycotted the season if a queer ending were spoiled for them, getting people to watch the bulk of it, getting people hooked, before making the queer subtext actual text. I've sometimes wondered if the reason the Cali gang isn't in episode 7 is because they made a conscious decision to push the overtly gay shit to the last two episodes.
This is pure speculation, admittedly. But they've straight-baited before and I'd love to see them do it again, and it would make sense to do it this way from a marketing POV if they were doing Byler.
we're in such a schroedinger's cat situation. our ship is either dead or alive. we're either being brutally queerbaited or watching the most epic slow-burn-friends-to-lovers plot twist unfold in real time.
july 1st is so gd far away
thank you for the asks also uwu
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alarrytale · 6 months
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I think that along with L*ewe, which they've both been wearing a lot, and L*me and other stuff they're promoting, that the stunt is in part to undo the damage O*ivia did to Harry's image. They couldn't do another PR relationship like Holivia because people would turn against Harry completely as he's so overexposed so they had no choice but to make this one low key and unproblematic. They want people to be invested in it, and many are but there's many ignoring it too. It has definitely helped his image with some of the gp, who think the 'relationship' is cute. But I'm angry at him and his team. He made that romantic quote at his show, supposedly giving advice to a fan but no doubt the whole exchange was orchestrated, and it turned out it was something T*ylor also said and it was used to sell their relationship, they used the exact same tactic with Holivia. I ignored it with Holivia because that whole stunt was weird but when they used that tactic again it really made me question how genuine Harry's shows are. Even that 'daddy' exchange at his show it turned out that the guy works for Pleasing. That was a set up. Lol. How are we supposed to believe anything he says when it's used to sell stunts, and even his shows aren't safe from them. I also stupidly thought that he might CO or stop stunting after the queerbaiting backlash. I thought that the backlash was too much for HSHQ to ignore, it was all over the media and social media. Then he literally went into another pr relationship after. They learned nothing, except to make this pr relationship more low key. I hate this need for him to always be publicly in a relationship or if he isn't then he's linked to a different model every week. His success is so manufactured, he has got to where he is by connections only. He hasn't earned his position. He is a very talented musician but they don't lean into his talent to sell him, it's completely overshadowed by his PR stunts. They could have done so much else with him.
Hi, anon!
I still don't understand how a pr/bearding relationship is going to rehab the damage of another pr/bearding relationship. The only thing holivia did was make people sick and tired of his pr relationships. We are stunt fatigued. This is yet another one, but with added shit aka poorly disguised repetitive brand promo. The obvious brand promo is actually making the whole thing look more fake. I see more and more people calling H out on his bs.
Yes, they use the same tricks every stunt. They start seeding a relationship with small things like that, that makes sense in hindsight. And yes, so much H does that seems organic is preplanned, set up or contrived. Even at his shows. We see less and less of the real Harry. Everything he does or shows us is controlled and is connected to an agenda. Things that might seem innocent on surface level always seems to be tied to a stunt or commercial gain. He's a walking billboard, always selling us something. We don’t get any fan service to make up for it either anymore, that's were the issue lies. There is nothing good to make up for the bad (or the things we tolerate for his sake).
I do wish they'd have more faith in him as a talented artist. I wish he had more faith in himself too. I think everyone makes more money this way, but i don't understand how he's not embarrased and ashamed. He does look annoyed and pissed off in all the photos from the last month. Is a cranky H good promo for the citrus fruit brand or the german lion brand? Is the fandom making fun of it's ridiculousness good promo? I think we're all counting the days until this phase is over. He doesn’t need to stunt like this to rehab his image after O. As you say, there's loads of other things he could do that give him pr that everyone would love, including him.
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diamondcitydarlin · 2 years
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ok nandermo defeatists, I have some helpful reminders for you!
we don't know anything yet. It's WWDITS so we really don't know anything. Think of all the little clues we've gotten in the past prior to a season airing, all the assumptions one could come to about any of them, and how the show always ends up doing something completely off the wall that no one ever would have guessed. Did yall see Colin collapsing in on himself and becoming a baby? No. In fact as I recall most of the fandom thought he was dead for good (I didn't, so you have to listen to me lol) I haven't forgotten all the assumptions people came to about the glimpse of the casino vow renewal glimpses before we got those and none of them were right in the end.
Season 3 established the groundwork for Nandermo in such a way that they will eventually have to come back around to it, as indeed was their intention. Guillermo being jealous of Gail, Guillermo being confronted by his feelings for Nandor and running away, Nandor believing that he's been stood up by Guillermo without an alternative explanation. All of that is building up to something, just as everything in EVERY SEASON builds up to Nandor and Guillermo having some kind of watershed moment. No this doesn't definitively prove that they'll run off into the sunset together, but it does mean we probably owe more of a benefit of the doubt to the writers, esp at this point
WWDITS is not sherlock or supernatural or any of the shows from the era of queerbait and it is absolutely a false equivalency to compare them. like I understand tumblr fandom is burned from this, but I think it's been long enough now that we can kinda identify where we went wrong in expecting certain shows to deliver on things they clearly were never going to deliver on, and I think we're older and wiser enough now to accept that WWDITS is not cut from the same cloth. Also the fact that open queerness has already been established several times over, so yknow there's that.
we're not even pulling from trailers or screencaps at this point, just press releases and things quoted/explained by journalists that are missing and might have been taken out of context. this isn't a stable enough basis to be making assumptions. I'm having flashbacks to everyone deciding Nandermo was officially over before s3 when we heard about his love quest lol
anyway, all this in mind- no, there is no definitive proof Nandermo will happen, but there's also no definitive proof that it won't. Far from it, in fact. of course, do what is best for you, prepare yourself as you see fit for your own comfort, but I'm throwing this out there for consideration as it does sort of feel like a tradition on tumblr before a new thing comes out to go around convincing each other of disappointment based on crumbs of preliminary info. In some cases I totally get it, but idk I think WWDITS deserves better than that
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lunatic-fandom-space · 9 months
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I just finished season 4 and unlike with the others I didnt have a whole lot to say as a was watching, mainly because I was actually enjoying myself and thought the season was mostly really good ? absolutely wild. Nevertheless I have some thoughts
I LOVE Alya and Marinette working together, its a delight. When I talk about "man can you imagine if MLB did like a magical girl show and focused on female friendships instead of catfighting" THIS is what Im talking about!! And Idgaf about how this affects the Love Square at this point, this is all Ive wanted! Also, I feel like Alya and Nino knowing each others identities cheapens the Love Square conflict more than anything but I cant fully articulate why so I'll just leave it at that
The Love Square is in a very strange place where, when the identity reveal finally does happen, its simultaneously going to feel like its too little too late (a la the destiel confession bc this fucking show is just straight queerbaiting) and rushed because like. what kind of development is there between these two. They barely focused on romance this season (which is definitely part of why I think its better lol) but I dont mean that in the sense that we had less catfights and Marinette making a fool of herself for no reason, I mean that in the sense that it barely felt like they interacted at all, atleast to me so thats kinda odd
In the past Ive complained about how the civillian plotline usually feels very disconnected from the superhero/akuma plotline and I think theyve done a much better job, my favorite episode of the season is probably Qilin both for tying the akuma into the civillian plot and for having a somewhat unique conflict resolution. In general, I liked that we had people rejecting akumas as well as preventative measures in form of the charms, although I do think it sucks that a few episodes afterwards Shadowmoth just figures out a way to circumvent them and then its back to business as usual. I feel like a better workaround would be that the charms can only protect you from one akumatization each, so like, the charm Ladybug gave her grandfather in Simpleman can only protect him from becoming Simpleman again, but if he turns into Bakerix, she needs to give him a different charm. But I do find the charms cute
The new heroes all suck tbh, the only design I liked was Purple Tigress and Pigella came close to looking kinda good but then they made it this intensely unflattering shade of pink, which I find impressive because Rose is already wearing an completely different intensely unflattering shade of pink in her civillian form. One thing that I appreciated about whatever Mylenes superhero form is called, Pigella and Purple Tigress is that they had more justifiable reasons for Ladybug to pick them than most of the heroes in the last season, who were mostly just picked because They Were There ig. And then Penealteam rolled around and we were back to doing exactls that kind of bullshit. great.
Also, Ive already talked about this in a seperate post, but if they absolutely insisted on looking for a replacement for the Bee, it shouldve been Sabrina and they shouldntve invented a whole new character for it
Adrien got a little more focus this season and we actually got some insight into his character when hes not either The Object Of Marinettes Idolization or Ladybugs Punny Sidekick Thats Slowly Becoming Obsolete which I enjoyed because he has a lot of potential from a dramatic standpoint what with being Hawkmoths son and all, but hes usually so bland that I dont really care too much so this was pretty nice. And it only took us 4 seasons for him to get some focus, yknow, the other superhero in the title? Well better late than never I guess
Speaking of Adrien, Ive made quite a few posts where I said that this season would be ruined for me the second the Sentiadrien reveal happens but it never did, we're getting that in season 5 and I am not looking forward it especially considering the small taste Ive already gotten of it with Adrien being very obviously controlled by that ring. Like, I'll probably talk about it in more detail when it gets fleshed out in the show but for now I'll just say it doesnt make the stakes higher like the writers seem to think, it make the story wayyyy less interesting and it feels like its supposed to be an explanation for Adriens behaviour towards his father when we absolutely do not need one beyond "hes being abused"
I know I said that I thought this season was really good and now Im just just complaining mostly like I always do but idk, Im not as good at formulating my positive thoughts as my negative ones. The last thing I'll say is that I loved Scarabella and I loved her design and I loved the whole episode she was in, as well as the entirety of Sentibubbler, Alya really served this season
Thats it, thanks for reading :D
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allthefujoshiunite · 1 year
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Have you watched Buddy Daddies? If you have do you like it?
Random ask....Do you think anime like Free, Sk8, Jeweler Richard and Yuri on Ice are queerbaiting or at least have semi canon couples? I mean I love those anime series and my fav otps are from those series, but what do you think?
P.s Love your latest meta, it really made my day and when I read them, I also found answers to my internal questions my self...Thanks for sharing them...( I'm not the anon who asked that)...
💐🌷🥰🤩
Hello! Today's great coincidence that made me chuckle into my morning tea was getting asked about my opinion on queerbaiting by two different people, 1-hour apart 🤣 Thanks a lot, both of you! I'll put my two cents down about queerbaiting discourse in anime and I know it's silly to mention but just to be sure, these are all opinions, and my opinions only. 
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Before I start rambling about gays, no I haven't seen Buddy Daddies yet. I've been very excited about it ever since I've seen the PV but as you may know, I decided to review every first episode of the Winter 2023 season so I'm pretty much swamped... I'm saving Buddy Daddies to savor it! If you wait a bit, you'll be reading my first impressions of it soon. 
So. Okay. Queerbait. First of all, definitions because for the love of BL gods, people have been throwing words around without knowing what they mean. 
According to this interesting book that's been sitting on my TBR pile, Queerbating and Fandom: Teasing Fans Through Homoerotic Possibilities, the definition of queerbaiting is as follows: 
Queerbaiting describes an industry tactic where “those officially associated with a media text court viewers interested in LGBT narratives... without the text ever definitely confirming the nonheterosexuality of the relevant characters.” For this reason, the term is seen as exploitative, and when fans use it to describe a series, its marketing, or the actions of producers, they are engaging in a “form of queer activism.”
There are other terms coined by the scholars such as "covert courting" (i.e. targeting gay consumers using subtle elements not intended to be picked up by heterosexual audiences) etc. but in my opinion, these terms are built upon the presupposition that there is a queer audience to bait into consuming your media. And I'm not sure whether there's a group of audience that is acknowledged as queer in the minds of producers and/or creators in Japan. 
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What they want to tap into according to yours truly, however, is FujoMoney. No, it's not a new currency, although now I kind of wish it was. There's an interesting video on it that delves deeper into the topic but in short, they are after the buying and creating potential of shippers. Creating fan content is, in itself, a grey area legally but it's overlooked because the franchise profits from it immensely. A similar practice, if you're or have been into K-pop at some point, is the fansites. Normally, they shouldn't be allowed to make merchandise off of the artists and gain profit from it. However, they attend concerts out of their own pockets, take these photographs using their own cameras, and contribute greatly to the group or the individual artist's popularity. Tl;dr: it's free real estate for the companies. 
So I guess the term we're looking for is fujobait, rather than queerbait. What the higher-ups want to attract are shippers who are buyers and/or fancreators. Look at any sports anime and you'll see. There have been multiple times when I got into a series because I've seen a shippy fanart or a video edit of a character. And to be honest, if I was more fortunate economically, they'd be making that kind of monetary profit through merch off of me as well. xD
While queerbait and fujobait might seem like they mean the same thing, they eventually are not because the former capitalizes on real-life stigmatized identity while the latter relies on a consumer's practice of queering the content at hand. I'm personally not as interested in putting the label of "right" or "wrong" on these terms, so I'll leave it at this for now. 
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Moving on to the series you mentioned, they can't all be put into the same box, but can be divided into two groups where Free and Sk8 rely more on fanservice and the intricacies of the relationships are left to the shippers' imaginations while Jeweler Richard and Yuuri!!! on ICE are entirely different. Especially, Yuuri!!! on ICE because there's no room left for discussion or different readings that Yuuri and Victor are a couple. They literally get married, and the only reason some people still to this day question whether they are canon or not is because of eurocentrism/racism. I come across reels of real-life women taking a ring out and putting it on the ring finger of another woman with people cheering in the background and no one is asking to see their marriage registration in the comments. On the contrary, they congratulate them! The exact same scene is there in animated form, so why do we even question its validity? 
In the case of Jeweler Richard, sadly light novels aren't my thing. I have only seen the anime and have read the first volume of the manga. However, I've read an extensive blog post on the light novels comparing them to the anime adaptation. From the blog post, their relationship is evident even though to an anime-only it might come off as implied. I personally didn't think it was implied even in the anime, but if anyone else did, we have our answers in the source material. 
All of this then begs the question: does having things spelled out on screen matter? If yes, to what extent it matters? I mentioned in the previous meta post that the consumers of Asian media are already lucky when it comes to the existence and variety of such content. I'm personally someone who's in favor of having media to consume at hand instead of waiting for the Perfect Representation. I don't even want representation, because what is representation anyway for a non-monolithic community with a deep, rich history? I want portrayal, and while having things openly said is cathartic and something I want to have, I won't discredit the works I enjoy and find meaning in just for the sake of it. Especially content that come from countries with heavy censorship or a high possibility of GP backlash.
Plus, while I'm not in any Chinese BL or BL-adjacent work fandoms, I watched dramas here or there and have a lot of mutuals who are actively in the fandoms of certain series, so through osmosis, I learn a couple of things as well. I've seen people talking about the cultural significance of certain choices in these works that someone who's not well-versed in the codes of the Chinese culture won't be able to pick up, i.e. characters wearing red can be an insinuation on marriage because red is a color worn in weddings. Or there's no way I would pick up that Chinese BL dramas are dubbed over just so they can pass censorship. Would it be better if China were to be supportive of LGBTQA+? 100%. Should people there push for the content they'd like to see or portrayals that they see themselves in? Without a doubt. Should it mean that they should get nothing until they get exactly what they want? A hard no. There must be still works that portray such relationships even if they are implied because I see this attempt as getting a foot in the door. 
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To sum everything up: what I want is to enjoy what I read/watch and share it with others while trying to keep a critical eye on as much as I can. My background is in STEM and I'm not formally educated in humanities anyway. What I try to do is to read and discuss questions I have in mind, and writing helps me order and expand my thoughts. I find value in trying to keep an open mind instead of gatekeeping and micro-analyzing every little thing, or at least, I try not to let them take the fun out of it. To quote the great Maggie Nelson's The Argonauts:
I am not interested in hermeneutics, or erotics, or metaphorics, of my anus. I am interested in ass-fucking.
Easily one of the best books I've read in 2022. Pure brilliance.
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spikeisawesome456 · 6 months
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Coming to you again because we're both pretty about the same poll and I made the mistake of checking the notes and something I find very interesting is how the stucky fans are talking about history, but they do this by talking about what the /fandom/ did (fics, etc.) And I find this interesting because they realize that all the queerness there came from the fandom. Nothing (but queerbaiting) came from canon. What are y'all even talking about.
I should be working but I'm so invested it's so stupid 😂😂😂
Oh my GOD, right??? I feel so insane over this dang poll, but I can’t stop obsessing. I’m honestly going to be so glad when it’s over because it’s so distracting, ha.
But yeah, right?? Stucky is NOT really fandom history. Like, yeah, it’s there, but if I had to pick a truly “historic” ship, Stucky is not one of them. Then again, I was never super into Stucky. Steve always kind of bugged me as a character (no real reason, his character type is just one that I don’t like overly much), so I could never get into ships that involved him.
That being said, canon is not always the best gauge for if a ship is historic or not. Kirk and Spock is likely the most historic ships, and I don’t think it ever was anything close to canon (then again I wouldn’t know, I was never really into Star Trek). But BlackBonnet IS also historic for having a whole romance based around these two characters and not backing down from it. And YES, the real Stede Bonnet and Edward Teach were monsters, I completely get that. But this is fiction, guys. Personally, I can think of nothing more fitting than taking two horrible people and turning them into caricatures of themselves for the amusement of people hundreds of years separated from them.
Anyway, I completely understand the whole “I should be working” thing. I definitely had been checking up on the poll last week while surrounded by a dozen tiny elementary school kids. 😅😅😅 I called out sick from work today (for unrelated reasons!! Mental health day, more than anything), so at least I don’t have to worry about it all today.
Last I checked, the poll was being won by BlackBonnet, so here’s hoping it lasts!! Only 3-ish more hours to go.
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gold-pavilion · 2 years
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hello :) I just found your blog and I think your take on tkrv manga is interesting. May I know your thought about koko & inupi library kiss panel? Does he kissed him as he is or with image of akane in mind? do you think the said panel a queer bait or is there truly something between them? I've been wanting to know (neutral) translator opinion and not from shipper or antis view. Sorry if you have answered similar question, thank you! <3
Hello!! Thanks!! That's alright, it's an interesting topic to discuss and I've barely touched upon it!! To be honest, I'll take this chance to go in-depth, because Inui and Koko's story opens up a whole thing with LGBT rep in manga and the way it's taken by fandom.
Firstly, in order to define whether this is a concrete piece of LGBT content or a case of baiting, we gotta start from establishing what queerbaiting is.
The wikipedia definition is perfect:
"Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBT representation."
There's another concept that I always apply to this, and that's plausible deniability: where is the line between 'hinting' and 'depicting'? Are two people of the same sex, for example, saying they'd die for each other anyday 'hinting' at a romantic bond, 'depicting' a romantic bond or is it meant to be ambiguous? When we just can't be sure of what it is, there's plausible deniability; people who don't wish to see it as LGBT rep will say it's not, people who see it that way will say they do. I, for clarity's sake and to avoid being baited (because I am queer and tired), only consider a canonical depiction one where there is no longer plausible deniability, when no one could argue 'that was platonic, just a friend thing' or nothing is ambiguous anymore.
And when is there no plausible deniability? Normally, when the word 'love' is used or alluded to in a clear romantic context, or an unmistakably romantic gesture (such as a kiss on the lips) appears. Then it's no longer up to interpretation, but a concrete part of that media.
Now, given that Koko and Inui is a romance that took place, ergo, the romantic nature of feelings involved was made undeniably present (the kiss, among other context signs), I don't think we're being baited. It's not bisexual content "hinted, but not given"; it was very much given, fully intended and executed as romantic.
Having said that, I think fandom gets easily confused on what discussion they're having and what discussion they're trying to have. 
Is InuKoko a thing that canonly happened? Yes. It took place beyond plausible deniability and has been displayed numerous times in canon as a plot point of romantic characteristics. Is it LGBT? Yes.
Did it happen for reasons that were unhealthy? Did Koko take a romantic initiative because he was grieving? Or because he was projecting? Or because he was confused? Discussing those points doesn't make InuKoko less canon or less LGBT. It can mean we have a messy bisexual story on our hands, or even an unhealthy bisexual story on our hands if you wanna see it that way, but the fact remains that we have a bisexual story on our hands. Fandom can discuss whether Koko thought about Akane while kissing Inui or not; but the fact of the matter is still that he kissed a boy.
In other words, the discussion of whether it's a 'good' or 'bad' ship is free real estate. Have at it. Maybe Koko was a disaster and an absolute dickhead about it. Maybe Inui was too when he wouldn't talk about his doubts for years. But the discussion of whether InuKoko is a ship that canonly happened in Tokyo Revengers is… not a discussion; the answer is yes.
From the standpoint of someone who cares about LGBT rep and its scarcity in mainstream anime/manga, believe me, I find it frustrating when an LGBT storyline happens "for reasons rooted in heterosexuality" (ergo, Koko developing his homosexual interest in Inui as an aftermath and consequence of his previous heterosexual interest in Akane). And I find it frustrating precisely because it makes people confused about what is still, despite any why/how/etc, an LGBT thing. At the end of the day, the fault of that lies less with the content, but with people shifting the conversation to something it's not and putting validity behind gates of secondary relevance.
At any rate, I've said my piece on that. Back to the start of the question! Back to the library scene. 
Because, while it doesn't change things in terms that what happened has happened and what's canon is canon (and I wanted to make that very clear, as my top priority), I can sure give my own thoughts on the scene itself. For fun lmao.
We don't truly have anything that tells us, clearly and unmistakably, what was going through Koko's head that time. Personally, I think it may be intended to be ambiguous and/or to match his emotional state; that's to say, in process of figuring out what he felt. 
However, nothing in canon has ever pointed to Koko taking Inui as a replacement for Akane, nor confusing him with her in any way (in dialogue, in the recent chapter 252, that has been reestablished too). On the contrary, he's demonstrated to be very aware of Inui as Inui, and to be anguished precisely because of the push and pull of two feelings he has at once. If you ask me, I think there is a reason he said Akane looks like Inui, before likewise implying that Inui looks like Akane too; he has seen them both as themselves.
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I don't think any of these things are there for no reason either, as that simply doesn't exist in fiction. Every scene, shot and dialogue is part of a piece of fiction 'cause it is, in one way or another, relevant to be there. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the side of Inui's face that is towards Koko, that is so focused in the scene, is precisely the side with the huge burn mark; the side that isn't Inui-Akane's similarity, but just Inui. I believe there's a reason there for him to have broken down in guilt and grief about Akane after doing that, with someone who was not her.
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But that's up to anyone's interpretation.
As a translator, the most I can say is the little parenthesis two paragraphs above: that in the text, in the dialogue, there is no suggestion of replacing or confusion, but a messy case of feelings for two people. Always an Inui and Akane-san, never an Inui as Akane-san. Up until, of course, chapter 252 makes it simply Inui.
The rest is just my impression of the overall material I'm reading, and my take as someone very used to handling fiction. But I'm very happy to be asked about these matters and very honored to be considered someone neutral you'd send this message to!! I hope this has been helpful orrrr at least interesting, 'cause it definitely is to me.
Message again anytime!!
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thisiskatsblog · 5 months
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harry & louis have clearly broken up and it's time to accept that, my guess is 2014, early 2015 & they kept the larry shit up until 2016 (the coded messages or whatever) to keep us from being disappointed by it but now it's time to just let it go, they clearly don't want us in fandom and have made that clear time and time again, and it's not good or healthy for lgbtq+ people to stan people who clearly dislike them (both have shown signs they dislike larries, harry recently with his actions ie. taking known larrie things and using them in different contexts like giving his blue bandana to his friend, saying songs we associate with larry is about gemma, etc. and louis with another denial, it's obvious they've been showing contempt for us), it's healthy for all of us lgbtq+ people to just let them go and find other celebrities to focus on, it's torture to stan someone closeted when you're lgbtq+, it's not good for our mental health, even you are stressed and struggling with it so larries need to stop encouraging people to become part of us and just leave for our own good and the good of our mental wellbeing, harry and louis are evil villain gays and have made their beds, now they need to lie in them, we supported them, we created a safe space (despite interviewers and media and others claiming it was harry lol no honey that was all us), we made (most) of the fandom lgbtq+ friendly (you can hear that by the cheers and screams harry gets when he says "we're all a little bit gay" and does gay shit on stage etc) yet they still haven't or won't come out despite all we have done to prove it's safe and welcome for them to do so, whatever we have done is not enough and it never will be so we need to put ourselves first and stop investing our time, energy and money into them.
That’s one way of explaining things for yourself but I’m not sure if it’s the only way or the best way.
There’s definitely been references to a relationship between Louis and Harry since 2016 and in the years after that I actually did have the impression the support was much wanted. There has since been a shift, for sure, but it’s really up to every individual LGBTQ person in this fandom to decide how they want to deal with that.
To be honest, I’ve been receiving anons trying to stop me from “queerbaiting LGBTQ fans into a hostile environment” since long before 2016. But that was and still is a complete misunderstanding of the situation (and of what queer baiting is for that matter). No one lured in the LGBTQ fans. They were already here.
And the safe space that we’ve created, together with Harry, and with Louis - because I think their seemingly positive reactions certainly helped - that’s something I believe we did for those LGBTQ fans first and foremost. It was a positive and constructive outlet for all the frustrations which made the space safer for us.
And yes, we did “our part”, we did so much. If they haven’t come out it doesn’t mean we didn’t do enough. That’s not how coming out works, at all. Creating a safe space doesn’t create any obligation for any queer person to anything.
“Every queer person has the right to come out on their own terms and on their own timeline. They also have the right to choose not to come out at all.”
I repeat: if they haven’t come out,it doesn’t mean we didn’t do enough.
We know that we did, we know we did the right thing, and we know we did all we could.
If the “results” are disappointing compared to the expectations that may have (inadvertently) been created then that is sad, but I don’t believe it deserves anger.
What is more, i really think what we did made a big difference, for so many people in the fandom and, I believe, also for them. Harry picks up flags night after night. Louis’ shows has rainbow lights.
I honestly think that the rainbows in the fandom gave them a means to express themselves in a way that feels comfortable to them without having to say the words and if that is the case then I really think that is valuable.
But again - it was never just about them - it was always for queer fans first and foremost and those queer fans have become so much more visible and so much more comfortable in this fandom. And I think that is really valuable too.
Also I don’t agree that rainbows mean “it’s safe to come out”. It is safer. It never is completely safe. That’s societal homophobia for you. People have many reasons not to come out.
So I think every LGBTQ person in this fandom should make an assessment for themselves: does being here make me happy or not .
If it doesn’t, then by all means, draw your line in the sand.
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goongiveusnothing · 6 months
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YES it's a terrible storyline, this idea they're each others long lost star crossed lovers was just completely unbelievable. the only thing we saw them do together was have sex.
I fully believe Harry's participation in this movie was to satisfy the Gayrries sex fantasies of him with men and also to possibly get him more recognition as an actor if it had done well and gotten good reviews. It failed at both. Some Gayrries were satisfied, but I think deep down most realized he isn't actually gay because of how bad the sex scenes and the chemistry between the main characters was. Otherwise, why aren't most of them talking about it anymore? I've seen more people say they liked DWD even though that was surrounded by a ton of drama and people hated Olivia.
definitely. i think he knew the queerbaiting would be perfect for his audience to finally see him fuck a man. it's the only thing he knows full well his fans have always wanted from him.
and he also knows that when straight actors play queer male characters, it's total oscars bait. it's a bit less now of course, but i think harry still thinks old school about this and thinks that voters are still incredibly in awe a straight man would willingly be romantic with a dude and make it look good.
but yes, it flopped for what you said. the chemistry was appalling. nothing from harry's end. total deadness. and exactly. they claim harry has chemistry with every man. that this was his big gay outing. surely he'd want to go all in, surely we'd see how natural this was to him, the REAL him, finally we could see what a fantastic tantalising gay lover he is! how he seduces men! how he only has chemistry with dudes!
and it's awful. one reviewer said the scenes between them almost looked like rape because of how uncomfortable harry's character was, but i don't think it's the character, i think it's harry's acting.
and his sexual prowess is fucking bizarre. those devour face kisses he does on top of people's whole mouths, right away, without any build up. like does he know how to build up in sex? does he know what foreplay is? right away it's a big devour your entire face kiss as though that's what passion and sexiness is. but it's not, it's the slow burn, the real chemistry, the feeling we're watching something truly building up between people. he clearly doesn't understand that.
the fact that none of his fans ship him and dawson, and that those gifs or discussions or fanfic of the movie are almost non existent says it all. i never see anyone for example on twitter with a harry MP avatar. his fans realized it was a dud, got off to the sex scenes, and then pretended it never happened.
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