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missjackil · 5 years

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My 14x20 Season Finale Opinion

Moriah

This was absolutely AMAZING!! It ranks in there with the Season 4 and 5 finales with me! Definitely one of the best!! I came away from 14x19 saying “ooooh my boys done fucked the fuck up!” and came away from this with “OMG MY BOYS REAAAALLLYYY FUCKED THE FUCK UP!!!!” So without further ado, let's get to it.

Absolutely nothing I predicted to happen happened. Even with clues given from trailers, sneak peeks and spoiler shots, which is fantastic, because that means they can still surprise me, have not gotten too predictable, and the writing is STILL top notch!

I was completely and pleasantly thrown by the segment where no one could lie. This is the first finale that had a good strong dose of comedy, where it would seem to not fit but was so well done it was great! It was reminiscent of Lebanon which started off very light and humorous and quickly changed to deeply dramatic. Since the beginning, one of my favorite things about this show is its ability to take me through so many different emotions in just one episode.

We start off with a very angry Jack. Sam Dean and Cas looking on in terror as he emerges from the smoke. Sam, though a little terrified, actually shows a little relief that Jack made his way out. .Now Dean and Cas have at it, because Dean wants Jack dead and Cas does not. Which solidifies that this, season 14, is the first season in 10 years that had absolutely 0 Destiel moments (Thank you Dabb!!) not a welcome back hug, no “sex eyes” no stupid mixx tape... nada zip nothing :) so while so many of you have bitched since Dabb took over in S12, that he's breaking down the brothers’ co-dependency and is a Destiel stan, he has proven both accusations wrong by a long shot.

Now let's move on to the story. Jack walks through town and hears everyone lying to each other. One of the first things we know he has learned is that lying is bad. He’s expressed this a few times that he is uncomfortable with it, now even without a soul, he doesn’t like it, so he orders everyone to stop lying, simply by shouting it. I knew this was going to be fun.

Sam and Dean go to a facial recognition company to try to find Jack. Right away I notice that the sign says “Mirror Universe” and they hold the shot for a moment, making me wonder if this is something I might want to remember later. Not unlike in Lebanon when the boys walked up to the pawn shop and their reflections appeared over the sign “Precious Pawn”. Are these things a hint to something, like in 7x02 when Sam and Hallucifer/Dean got to the office building that was named “Morning Star Inc” (Lucifer is Latin for Morning Star)? Could just be a coincidence but Im going to put that on my “hmmmm” shelf.

Right away Dean comments about the nerds and Sam says “Takes one to know one” and we know they can’t lie either. We learn Dean is not only a geek also, but watches Jeopardy every night, and Sam’s favorite singer is Selene Dion! This tickles me because I love learning new things about Sam, and my little wincest heart sighs at the thought of My Heart Will Go On, Because You Loved Me, and It’s All Coming Back to Me Now are songs maybe he thinks about Dean to?

On that note, I must include that my good friend @supernaturalnardog pointed out that in the early years, being made to tell the truth, led the brothers to say biting, resentful things about each other, and now it was just silly brother teasing. How much closer and trusting they have grown since those days 😍

Meanwhile, we have Cas doing something that made no sense to me. After bitching at Sam and Dean about trying to contain Jack in the Malak box, he is now trying to get into Hell so he can see if he can put Jack in the cage?? Ummm sure yeah Cas, that's a much better choice. Jack goes to find Kelly’s parents, and sadly, they don't like him anymore. They looked him up and no one heard of him, and Kelly’s peers believe she is dead. Grandmom believes Jack killed her. She screams at him and all we see are glowy eyes and STOP!! Ugggh did he just Mary Winchester another grandmom?? Back at the ranch, Chuck shows up agrees with Cas that Jack is a problem and they go meet up with Sam and Dean. Dean is automatically pissed and breaks Chuck’s guitar, the office is crazy with people telling the truth, so Chuck zaps them all back to the bunker to talk. Emotions rise from there...

Cas splits to go find Jack, Chuck talks to the boys makes them a gun that can kill anything, but the catch is, that whatever the gun does to someone else, it also does to the shooter. Dean takes the gun.

After some monologuing between Cas and Jack, we go back to Dean in his room, filling a flask. Sam is looking for him, so Dean invites him in and asks him to have a seat. Here comes “the talk” that Sam must be all too familiar with now. Dean informs Sam that he’s going to kill Jack, and consequently kill himself as well. Looking for Sam’s approval, blessing, acceptance, or whatever, Sam isn’t having it this time. He admits he’s still angry with Jack and part of him still wants him dead too, but

“Dean, we never even tried to save him!” “He killed mom!” “He has no soul!” “And who’s fault is that?” I actually thought Dean was blaming Sam for a second, until Sam took the blame himself and Dean’s expression clearly showed that wasn’t what he was trying to say, he was trying to say it’s Jack’s fault he has no soul.

Sam says it’s his own fault because he brought him back, and Jack burned his soul off saving both of their lives. So Sam tells Dean if he thinks hes going to give him permission to go kill Jack and himself, so he can lose them both all at once, then no... just no.... he’s lost too much already. Sam peaces out.

Sam meets up with Chuck and the meta here made me a little dizzy to be honest. Chuck reveals that Sam and Dean are his guys, of all the Sams and Deans in all the universes, they’re his favorite. They’re SO interesting. And now Sam manages to make me feel guilty about watching them over and over and even writing fic. I empathize with Chuck a little bit here because he “writes” them this way because they're his favorites. They’re the most amazing heroes ever, they save the world but to BE those heroes, they need to go through tragedy. Show of hands here how many of you Sam girl’s write or enjoy fics with hurt!sam? Or Dean girls who write/enjoy hurt!dean? Wouldnt it suck if the boys in your stories started yelling at you to stop it?? What a dark and crazy thought! And I empathized with Sam too, because of how much I love episodes like Red Meat because Sam is badass... but now hes kinda saying, “why did I have to suffer like that to show you Im a badass??” ya feel me fam??

Anyway. Sam gets very angry and then Chuck tells him Dean already left. Dean is at the cemetery about to shoot Jack with the special gun, and Sam doesn't want this, Jack is on his knees, telling Dean he understands and its ok. It flashed me back to the end of S10. Dean cant do it and drops the gun. Chuck is like “nooo pick it up this is the big Abraham sacrificing his only son on Moriah and Dean’s like “nope” and he doesn't even care if Chuck brings mom back in the trade. He’s done, Chuck can fekk off... Chuck’s like fine snaps his fingers and the lights all go out and Jack dies, Dean goes after Chuck and Chuck flings him hard. Sam is completely done, gets the gun and is like fekk all “Chuck dies, I die, Dean dies, the whole freakin universe dies... GAME OVER!” But (un)luckily Sam misfired. And dont @ me Sam and Dean both are crack shots, but they also miss pretty often. And Chuck, from what Ive seen between the show and the fandom said “If all you can do is bitch about the show? Welcome to The End”

Now we are being shown all Sam and Deans hard work being undone. From the Lady in White in 1x01 to John Wayne Gayce’s ghost in Lebanon. All the demons rising and the graves spitting out their dead and ganging up on 2 pretty helpless Winchesters and a pretty useless angel. My boys done fUcKeD tHe FuCk UP!!!! Jack is in The Empty, he’s awake with The Entity and Billie... I cant even imagine where this is going.

Im fairly sure this storyline won't come to a close in a few episodes in the beginning of next season. Since its the final season (side eyes the haters who made sure of it by bitching and not just changing the damn channel like civilized humans would) it will probably be a season-long arc and have reconciliation between the boys and Chuck by the end. If we have learned anything from the past 14 years of this show, its that good intentions don't always turn out good, with love we can forgive some pretty bad shit, and unfortunately, we tend to hurt the ones we love most.

Overall I think this was one of the best finales we’ve seen. I plan to write about and meta the crap out of what's gone on this whole season, because I think the season itself, aside from a few crapisodes, (which every season has) was by far one of the best!

So on a scale of Bloodlines to Lebanon, Im giving this a 9. Well done everyone... well done!!

#supernatural #14x20 spoilers #Moriah spoilers #my opinion #great job

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elizabethrobertajones · 6 years

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not to play devil's advocate bc fuck that anon, but i don't think they were bitching about the destiel scene per se so much for the context of it, and the big romantic implication that we were waiting for was just a throwaway sex joke from a demon that we've heard the likes of so many times and it.. doesn't really move their relationship anywhere. i hope you understand.

Yeah, I do, when you’re not aggressive about it (thanks

I just feel like that anon’s aggressiveness was entirely about the sense of being promised an entire scene and then lashing out and blaming me/the fandom/the show?? for promising them something huge and taking their generalised disappointment/overall anger at the show and bundling it all into using this as the scapegoat for their anger. If they had just taken a mo to read those tweets again it came across fairly clearly to me that it was a single line and also one that was in the category of whoops and cheers and laughter from Jensen rather than “awww”s and other less bawdy reactions. The thing is that those spoilers weren’t hyping it up as anything more than what it was, and knowing now full well that it was a single line, re-read those tweets and it’s very clear that they were reporting faithfully on the moment while trying not to spoil it. Especially all 4 together in that post, which was the most popular I saw circulating, and I feel like anon in particular seemed to have been waiting for an entire scene and somewhere or other got very hyped up for something that no one had promised them from any of these 1st hand reports. Seeing the tweets again reminded me I had the anon in my inbox and I got pretty pissed off that they got so annoyed about it when I was taking another look at the spoilers with all the context… I just, like, really hate speculation and spinning enormous narratives like gold out of straw.

I didn’t really talk about the moment itself, but, yeah. It isn’t anything new - Dabb has even written 3 years ago an almost identical scene with the angels taunting Cas with the implication he and Dean are boning, but this one made the connection absolutely clear for the audience, with no leaps whatsoever to connect what he was saying to Destiel, vs it being Dean’s phonecall that set that angel to threatening to cut off Cas’s junk. And we’ve gone a pretty long time since that level of taunting. I’ve always liked that 7x23 was the last time we got a “he’s your boyfriend” for a pretty hefty stretch of Carver era… I’m actually struggling to remember if there ARE any direct implications in seasons 8 or 9, and then in 10 we get the “Deastiel” moment in 10x05, and the deleted boyfriends argument in 10x14, and overall Carver era is extremely low on these implications and ‘jokes’ compared to Gamble era. I DO think the direct implications without any actual representation or canon sucks especially because these heap up and up and up in the ongoing annuals of Dean n Cas implications which are starting their 10th full year now. Like, interesting as they are on a meta level and for rolling along with the story having fun etc, cumulatively they suck when that’s as visible as it gets.

I do think, though, that in general this line would have been treated with a lot more fun if it hadn’t been spoiled at all because even sensible people like yourself can build up an expectation that the line might not be another one of these, just out of hoping for the best/giving the show the benefit of the doubt. Like actually maybe it could be someone calling Cas on his feelings (like 13x04 and the Empty accusing him of having some secret love, which was profound rather than teasing and a whole other category of this stuff minus the whole har har it’s funny that you might be gay together thing which for me hands an enormous amount of leeway to the snide comments from bad guys as it creates the weight to the relationship which makes it more than something spun from nothing but needling from villains who think its a joke, whether they seem to believe it or not). So I do get the hope that you can build up that it might have been something else, even against the spoiler than Jensen absolutely cracked up at it (which to me, knowing how he laughs at these things in general, was really the thing that made me guess it was going to be pretty much what we got but I know I apply a lot of lowest possible expectations to thinks just to protect myself).

Being bitter and cynical about it without proper mental upkeep in the direction of positivity can be really wearing. *I* can be cynical because I don’t mean it as wank and I know I still love the show etc etc so I’m prepared for the event without it coming across as disappointment… But that’s a strong mental wall I made and I know not everyone wants to/can/thinks we should have to do that. I sort of feel ALL media can be disappointing or not what you were after and basically only stuff you make yourself and a rare few creators will scratch the exact thing you want without issues. So I don’t feel it’s weird to allow SPN leeway to do sucky things so much as it’s the thing I’m most invested in so I have to be a lot more clear about them, while if other media lets me down in some way I am way more casual and roll with it easier to start with. And with SPN being heavily invested for so long, I’ve weathered SO MUCH outrage over these things and worse and less that something like this is very easy for me to soak with my mental armour and take on the chin and see it for what it is in the first place and so on without having particularly bitter thoughts when I immediately divine what type of line it will be from the spoilers. It’s not a “oh it will probably be garbage gay teasing” it a much more gentle reaction, knowing that I’ve already watched this far knowing the show does it so one more instance is just another for the record books.

I mean there’s a feeling of collecting the show’s sins and weighing its heart when all is said and done in the future when the show ends. But that’s extremely morbid so I don’t linger on that part of this sort of disassociative permissiveness to the show’s nonsense :P

Anyways. It’s good to be excited about the show but when it comes specifically to wild destiel spoilers I do think this fandom seriously needs an overall better filter to decide what will truly happen, and there’s no one person to blame, it’s a mindset and we very easily get carried away, and I’ve had to learn the hard way that I need to set myself as a rock in that river and let it wash past me. And not make hard lines of saying not to get enthusiastic for ANYTHING because oftentimes spoilers about Dean n Cas working together or chilling together DO turn out to be really good and in no way should we approach the episodes like we’re going to be attacked, because that’s where bitter stan fandom factions come from. It’s so complicated, and I really was trying not to say anything about it but then I got frustrated and it’s hard to be completely perfect about keeping quiet on annoyances… :P

I don’t know what the tl:dr is here.. I don’t blame people for getting excited, for sure. But maybe just for lashing out at others when they don’t get what they want and are really incautious. The original anon conjured a whole scene up they wanted, not just a line, and that to me is the perfect example of fandom spinning straw into gold with hype, and something I really can’t stand and at that point I start to say there IS a personal blame/responsibility. Peeps who weren’t THAT irrationally expectant and then proportionately furious after are cool and I wasn’t blaming anyone else >.>

#Asks #14x01 #wank for ts #riverboat gambling

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missjackil · 5 years

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Season 8

I’ve seen a lot of discussion about Season 8 lately, most of you hate it, or at least the first half. Understandable really, it was a train wreck! I will go on record to say that yes, Sam was very OOC for not looking for Dean, but it’s canon, so we do have to accept it.

I do think however, I may understand what Carver was going for with it. I’m not saying it was executed well, but from what all happened in the previous seasons, I think it was very important to establish who the brothers are to each other. Looking back through every season before this one, though there were some very good broments a lot the way, there were a lot of unnecessary fights, lies, insults and mistrust. How could they really sell to us how deeply they love each other while they keep hurting each other so badly?

In this essay, I may come down hard on both brothers at times. Please dont take it that I hate either or that I’m a stan for one or the other. I love these boys... flaws and all, so if you’re okay hearing your fav isnt always perfect (whichever bro that might be) please continue :)

In the beginning of Season 8, we have this strange, awkward, and OOC clusterfuck that we all blame bad writing for. And it was, I agree, and so do Jared and Jensen, but they both love where it led and are proud of the finished product.

I’ll start with the major OOC elephant in the room that is Sam not looking for Dean. He never really gives us a reason, even though later in the season he says that his whole world imploded, came raining down on him and he ran. We have to keep that as the only canonical reason as to why he didn't, so we only have headcanons to fill in the blanks. My main concern with it really is just that I am sure that Sam would have at least established Dean was dead for real, before moving on. There were no bodies, or even any blood, to indicate that Dean might be dead. I do believe that Sam would have or should have at least bought an Ouija Board , but then what could he do? Everyone he knew who could help him was dead. All the lore books they’d been using for 7 years were burned up in Bobby’s house. All that was left was Dad’s journal which had very little information in it. So he accepts Crowley’s words “You are in fact truly on your own”, fixed up the Impala and drove.

I don't believe Sam was suicidal. Crushed yes, depressed as hell but he won't kill himself without helping people in some way. Same with Dean. They may have wanted to die and would welcome death many times, but they're selfless martyrs, they won't eat a bullet or drive off a bridge, unless it was for a greater good. So Sam didnt look for Dean, because “Dean wouldnt want that” as we saw how pissed Dean was at Sam in S4 when he thought Sam sprung him from Hell, Sam had to remember that. Sam also knows he wanted Dean to have a normal life when he was gone, and Dean was nearly successful. Also, in the very same episode that Dean apparently died in, Bobby told them both upon leaving, “when it’s your time... go” So Sam most likely thought Dean would be proud of him if he moved on. That IS why Dean taught him how to fix the Impala a few years back right?

So Sam tries to move on. I hated Amelia, but I dont think we were ever supposed to really like her or “ship” them, we were supposed to feel the fakeness, how awkward and just wrong it was. Sam never looked content with her, even though once she stopped treating him like trash, he smiled a lot, he never seemed happy. She was nothing more to him than a grief partner and a physical distraction. He probably enjoyed playing house though, having a dog, getting a paycheck, but it wasn't really his life.

Meanwhile, Dean is in Purgatory with Cas and Benny, fighting monsters every day all day for a year. And this isn't a bad place for Dean honestly, he even referred to it as his “happy place” later, but it wasn't home, and Sam wasn't there. So in addition to slashing monsters all day, Dean was trying to find his way out to get back to Sam and their life.

Dean comes out and finally, he meets back up with Sam. The reunion hug was amazing! One of my favorites. they both looked genuinely happy to be with their brother again, but it was sadly short-lived. When Dean told Sam he wasn’t dead, he was in Purgatory, you can see the color leave Sam’s face. Like “Shit, I fucked up, I should have looked for him.” and then comes Sam’s big reveal that he got out of hunting. Watch how he says this. He’s not hiding it, he’s kind of cheerful about it, not like when Dean came back from Hell and he knew he was doing something Dean would be pissed at, he may have THOUGHT Dean would be pleased that he tried to move on, but obviously, Dean was not.

Im not blaming either of them for what they felt. They’re both justified in it. Sam felt like Dean would want this for him, and Dean felt like Sam was out there looking for him, or at least missing him terribly, and needed to get back. Imagine if you will, as each other's spouse. One goes off to war, goes MIA and is presumed dead, though no body is found. It may have been established beforehand that if anything happened to the soldier, that his remaining spouse is to move on with their life. However the soldier isn't dead, he’s a POW and he busts his ass for a year to try to get home. You bet he’s going to be pissed off when he gets home to see his spouse DID move on and didn't even ask for proof he was dead first.

Now we have Dean angry with Sam, Sam feeling guilty, but not willing to take the griping, so he’s going to fire back, and start threatening to leave. We have known from day 1 that Dean doesn't want Sam to abandon him. But he feels like Sam abandoned him in Purgatory, and now he’s trying to abandon him in the real world.

I feel like, at this point, Sam felt like he had the upper hand. He had the “Stop nagging me or I'm out” card, but he didn't know Dean had a card left to play either. He had the “Leave me and I'll replace you” card. This takes us to when Sam met Benny. Sam had been looking at schools again, weighing his options, so Dean thought it was time to introduce him to Benny.

Dean hadn't seen Benny since they got back, so had he and Sam been in good graces, I don't think Dean would have run out to help him when he called, or at least he wouldn't have been secretive about it, but they were on shaky terms and if Sam wanted to play emotional chicken with him, Dean can play this game too. There was no reason at all for Dean to have told Sam to meet him at the dock. Dean had his car, Sam had to steal one to get there. Sam rushes because he thinks Dean needs him, and now he’s not answering his phone, and Sam is panicking. Dean had told him he was on this hunt with a friend, but Dean doesnt have any friends right? Certainly none he can trust to have his back in a hunt right? Dean must be in trouble! However, when Sam gets to the dock, Dean is pulling up with this big dude. The camera focuses on Sam and Benny’s hands long enough for us to notice that Benny’s hand is bigger than Sam’s. Sam turns from pissed off brother, reluctant hunting partner, to jealous spouse in 60 seconds. He goes for his blade, he’s going to kill this bastard! Dean shakes his head.... “no”. Sam had no idea Benny was a Vamp at that point, he was going to kill his replacement. Dean got this, oh so smug look on his face “Go ahead and leave me.... but don't think I’ll be alone”.

I'm going to leave it there because I don't want to analyze the entire season. What I want to show you is that Carver must have wanted to deconstruct the entire relationship, look at each piece of it, and show it to us, and then put it back together by the end of the season. By the end of Sacrifice, we learned Dean doesn't want to be without Sam but is willing to let Sam go and live his normal life, but to do that Dean wants to go out saving the world so Sam and everyone else can be safe. Sam doesn't want to be without Dean, but he thinks he's lost Dean’s trust, and he’s been replaced by Benny, Cas and holds Dean back from doing what he wants, so he’s going to save the world, even though it’s going to kill him in the process.

Dean had told Sam that he didn't burn Benny’s body when he killed him, and Sam said he understood, and he might need him later.

So I hope you can see why I feel Carver did this. I for one knew that Sam and Dean loved each other, but I honestly didnt see this “nothing comes before you” type bond before S8. So he took everything, from the very root, in the beginning, and laid it all out on the table for us, before giving us this epic defining moment in the Church between Sam and Dean. Sam would rather die than lose his place with Dean, and Dean would rather kill them all and let the world burn than to lose Sam,

So even though I think the beginning was poorly executed, I do appreciate what it was showing us and I love the finished product. There hasn't been a more defining season in the whole series. As much as you might hate S8, you probably wont ever put the church scene out of your mind, and what led up to it. So, in my humble opinion, rocky start Mr Carver, but well played 🙌

#spn #SEASON 8 #sam and dean #my meta

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elizabethrobertajones · 6 years

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Hi! I was watching the first episode for the second time (because I love suffering) and I kinda had the feeling that the angels weren't there to kill the boys. That they had a lot of occasions to mojo knock out or obi-wan and then kill. Do you think it's just for the plot, angels not strong enough or it could be something else? Cheers ~

Aaah I thought I answered this this morning when I was watching the ep again and then remembered that I hadn’t just now when I went to my inbox for something else… Haaa I am a tired disaster, sorry about the post-day-of-travel-with-fatigue blogging.

My thought process was “oh right the angels are only incapacitating Sam in the fight like that anon I answered earlier” so I guess that is the answer…

The angels came back really strong and dangerous this season because they’re finally an enemy against the Winchesters again. It’s actually fairly uncommon for the human dudes to fight the angels - Cas mostly handles it himself, or they banish them. I think Dean has more angel kills than Sam but by and large the plot has kept the angels away from them, because no matter how de-powered they get, they are still meant to be a million times more than a match for Sam and Dean. Angels seem to be pretty weak in the battles we see them in, usually against forces much stronger than the average angel lackey, but I think we just haven’t seen them punching Sam or Dean for a while.

I think Miriam had her own agenda and personality, while the other 2 were much more just representing Heaven generically - the guy who hated Cas and the other with the weird business casual trousers/shoes with no socks (I am still baffled tbh) who thought he deserved better. Miriam was scouting them out to see what they knew about Jack but she had a deep personal grudge against Dean - I’d actually think she might be a Cas stan who resents that Dean has taken Cas away and caused so much damage in Heaven, but not the sort of Cas stan who’s super protective of him, just pissed at what Dean’s done and all the chaos that’s spiralled from it… the same accusation Hester made in 7x21.

Miriam would have killed Dean because she was pissed off, and she stabbed Jack so “no one could have him” rather than because it was her mission. Before that the other 2 angels subdued Sam and made Jack so woozy and sick with the angel radio they were just carrying him out, so I think they really just didn’t *care* about the Winchesters being there, confident they were strong enough to overwhelm them and get the job done, but without any orders to kill Sam or Dean on sight. The angel who was kicking Sam could have easily killed him, because they were obviously shown to be stronger than the guys, and Dean only overwhelmed Miriam by being good at fighting, not really because he was stronger than her, and after she said her bit she headbutted him and got free, because she was stronger than him - and she probably only didn’t kill him there because she wanted to get to Jack and deal with that because it probably was a priority…

*squints sleepily at this reply* I hope that’s everything, because I hallucinated answering this which means there may be more answer in the dreamscape :P

#Asks #13x01 #angels

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elizabethrobertajones · 7 years

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I recently came across this blog that was very anti Dean/destiel. This was apparently because Dean supposedly was "an abusive person". Particularly towards Cas. Personally, I ship it, like.. a lot, but I scrolled down and I have to say that I read some valid points on that blog. Dean really treats him like shit sometimes and like, I could in some way understand why they thought of dean/cas's relationship like that. What's your opinion on this, like, do you think of Dean as abusive towards Cas?

If it was a Cas blog, those are all valid points, and you just let that go no matter how much you might stan for Dean :P Treat it as a free exercise in being zen towards your fellow humans and not thinking shit at them. Cas stans have been through enough, I was in fandom in season 10, I remember watching that despair >.>

(On the other hand there are some people who hate every aspect of the show at this point and are just completely fatigued with caring about it and may have a “Cas deserves better” line - but also hate 99% of everything that happens on screen so much that every aspect of the show is problematic garbage, which, of course, includes Destiel being an abusive trainwreck of a ship before you get to the fans romanticising every punch they throw at each other while gobbling up the queerbaiting and so on and so on)

There are some anti blogs that talk up it being abusive and whether they actually don’t ship it for that reason or not is a lot more blurry and (you can guess by the company they seem to keep) they might have got there via just finding something to “disprove” the ship or to justify hating it. In that case, long angry posts about why it’s so terrible are pretty much loudly agreeing with each other, and maybe hoping someone who ships it will stumble on the post and be convinced their ship is bad and they should feel bad. These same people will argue the ship is homophobic and its fans are homophobic, as well as abuse apologists, racist, whatever, because making a ship out to be unethical is a great way to subtly conduct a ship war while giving yourself high ground. It’s why when stuff like the cucumber water debate blew up, they were accusing us of being homophobic and saying drinking vegetable water made you gay, as if we are the racist uncle who thinks wearing a pink shirt means you’re a “pansy” or something, and that this line of homophobic reasoning is why we think Dean is gay and that they don’t stereotype people.

And there are people who genuinely don’t like the ship whatever angle they approach it because they feel it’s abusive in the sort of way where again you just respect that it makes them feel that way because it upsets or triggers them.

I’m now sure I sound like the next thing out of my mouth is going to be “so I guess Destiel is abusive then” but it’s a big fandom and different groups of people have different versions of the story :P

Lots of rambling about this under the cut:

When I was still fairly new to the fandom I stumbled on a Sam blog that was arguing with a great many examples of how Dean was abusive and of course sympathising with Sam in every fight and turning pretty much every interaction between them into a microaggression. I just wondered how you live like that and still watch the show? Like, if I found something so problematic I couldn’t even watch the 2 main characters who are onscreen all the time interact without getting upset every time one of the opens their mouth, I would just stop watching it. I *have* watched stuff where I then stopped watching because the characters pissed me off.

(I think this show has a secret magic formula to make you extremely over-invested in the characters to the point it’s like fictional character crack, and I may only stop writing meta for this show when I figure it out, take the secret with me, and go write a ton of novels with characters you’re similarly loyal too :P)

Anyway. There’s tons of people who don’t think Sam is abusive to Dean or Dean is abusive to Sam, and after I spent a day or so feeling really weird and uncomfortable about liking Dean so much when he was apparently awful I realised it had never affected the way I watched the show before, and that it had never troubled me about it either, because I never saw it that way.

When *I* thought about it, I thought Sam was very resilient, loved his brother, and had his clear boundaries, such as stomping off in 7x06 when he found out about Dean killing Amy or in season 9 after discovering the Gadreel thing, setting down very clear rules with Dean about where he stood after Dean crossed the line, and that clearly to Sam, he knows his own self, and 99% of the time, he’s fine with what Dean does in the grander scheme. Maybe they have fights and Sam is upset or angry with him for a while but in general if Sam thought he was being mistreated, he’s shown he can identify that for himself and get out and look after his own interest, and return when he and Dean can reach an understanding and have grown as characters from it. (I think altogether too much debate about characters treats them as if they have never grown when we see them learn and change all the time and are quantifiably different from how they started)

I think season 10 was the only time it crossed too far into really seeming a bit too domestic violence-y because of course Dean with the Mark of Cain had an ancient brother killing curse and Sam was still living under the same roof trying to help him, after being nearly murdered under said roof already once that year. But it was all extremely dark and fucked up for everyone, so unless I was stanning Sam, again it wouldn’t upset me any more than any other character’s messed up part in that arc, especially as Sam had his own part in being portrayed in a really negative light, and it seemed like Carver just wanted us to hate both of them at times.

Anyway by the time I ever read anyone complaining about how Destiel was abusive I’d already had to realise through thinking about that (and I read that before season 10 aired) that how we read characters and their behaviour to each other is as subjective as anything else on this show.

If we really, deeply care about Dean, Cas can be seen as abusive - that alley scene in 5x18 put people off because Cas attacked Dean pretty much out of personal anger when he could have just knocked him out with a touch and dragged his sorry butt home, and it made Cas seem cold and cruel to Dean, that he could turn on him like that and not care. Season 6 gives no respite to make Cas seem nice again, and then he goes and breaks Sam’s wall. By 7x17 when he comes back and Dean is all teary eyed about it and has the trenchcoat still you’re like why do you even fucking care, Dean? All he’s ever done is hurt you and Sam and break the world! and Dean’s suddenly in this position where he seems strung along loving someone who has only ever hurt them and been cold to them and his investment seems greater than Cas’s. And then as the story goes on, Cas’s attempts to redeem himself and apologise come across cold and calculating or emotionally manipulative and self-serving and yikes we’ve made it halfway through Carver era and Cas hasn’t done one single thing to earn Dean’s love or to seem truly selfless about his own. (I can’t be bothered to keep strawmanning this but honestly I have seen people who hate Cas argue the latter part, and people who never started shipping Destiel argue the first half about season 5 & 6 and why it never made sense to them)

I think it’s a violent, awful show where people do violent, awful things to each other. Sam and Dean already mutually did enough shit to make it easy to argue either was abusive to the other before Cas was around (eugh, extreme Dean girls hating Sam always feels like such a betrayal but they say some shocking stuff about Sam and how much of a useless whiny leech on Dean he is >.>) and Cas showed up also angry and a creature of violence, built in their exact mould, and they all kicked off from there.

At some point you’ve excused enough of this interpersonal violence and overblown emotional drama (which lends itself to manipulation and grand statements about betrayal or whatever) to watch the show and root for the characters and keep with them for up to 12 years and if you still LIKE the show and the characters, then you may have to consider when and how stuff would be abusive and be aware of not romanticising it, but you can still watch it and enjoy it and NOT find it abusive for your own take on it.

(I tag all discussion of Destiel crypt scene/mirrors of said scene, as “crypt scenes for ts” including gifsets that use their busted up faces in passing, for that reason, so people who find it abusive can selectively avoid it, and as a reminder to self that people see it that way and never to let myself think that these depictions of love breaking through violence are unproblematic. It’s an inherently problematic trope, and saying oh they were controlled by something else and it was romantic that they managed not to kill each other, is just too close to excusing someone who ACTUALLY hits someone and then saying, oh, but they managed to stop themselves from hurting them any more than they did and put down their fists after a while because they LOVE them. And the trope has been used 2 times with Cas and once with Dean so this isn’t saying either of them is more abusive than the other (especially as 10x22 was by far the most shocking, and, as I said about Sam, the Mark of Cain had been a domestic abuse metaphor the whole time))

But - and here’s the big but to literally everything above: if you still LIKE the characters and enjoy their relationship and it DOESN’T upset you too much to watch and you acknowledge where it can be seen as abusive but these things haven’t put you off, then there’s nothing harmful about either shipping them, OR saying you DON’T THINK THE SHIP IS ABUSIVE. And genuinely not thinking it is, overall.

I don’t, and for the same reason I explained about Dean not abusing Sam, especially that Cas still has agency and that his whole story has been about choosing the Winchesters over an INFINITELY more abusive family that HAS done all that shit to him and he’s been struggling to leave including the whole split loyalty still loving for them despite how much they hurt him thing and always being sucked back in despite how he must know by now angel stuff ALWAYS ends with him being hurt and angels dying. Picking Dean as his family over them seems a no-brainer.

For one thing, I don’t feel like there’s any malice in their day-to-day interactions, and that while Dean can be rough and rude to Cas, he doesn’t do it to exert control over him, JUST out of cruelty, or anything else abusive, just a pattern of “when Dean is sad or angry he will say insensitive and horrible things to the people around him” - because he’s human and messed up and angry/miserable (pick your week) and doesn’t think he even deserves their love half the time when he’s really trying to drive people off (his side of 5x18 :P). Your reaction to this pattern might depend on how you’ve been treated in the past and if it rings unfortunately too close to actual abuse to you, but without that trigger I think it is not impossible to read it as not aimed to control or emotionally manipulate the people around him, but normal expressions of emotion, with no intent to harm, and if you read the reactions of the people around him, no lasting damage to them as if his actions were abusive (e.g. Sam doesn’t get flinchy when Dean drinks or gets angry, as if emulating someone raised by a violent drunk; Cas doesn’t react when Dean yells at him but unless he’s in a very bad place for other reasons, gives shit right back to Dean and stands up for himself)

For another, Dean against Sam with the Mark was 100x worse than he ever was to Cas. 9x22 at the end showed a huge difference in how he treated them, and I don’t think that was putting on a nice face for Cas - I think that was meant to convey the Mark twisting Dean up AGAINST Sam and showing that he’d been poisoned against him, but it hadn’t affected how Dean felt about Cas, because he is not his brother, and the curse therefore doesn’t affect them. In the end he did attack Cas, and it’s their absolute low point, but it took a season and a half to hollow Dean out that far, as part of an episode showing in every way that we’d lost all parts of Dean that were good, while Dean took like 15 episodes from Mark of Cain to chasing Sam with a hammer. (And, of course, demon!Dean still retained parts of what made Dean good, making him at least complex, though obviously not “good” any more - Dean in 10x22 was genuinely more evil, empty and broken than when he was a demon, to compare Dean choosing to kill the kid with Dean selectively choosing to kill Lester because he thought his wife didn’t deserve it, never mind all his angsty moping and still deciding what he was and so on, suggesting he was struggling to let go of those last human parts.) Anyway, I didn’t think Dean had any sustained aggression against Cas and the arc was way more about a threat to Sam from Dean - as late as 10x20 Dean was still retaining his humanity and struggling to help Cas and do nice things on his behalf and play cute with Claire, while the season in general kept Cas away from Dean and I think that was a good idea in hindsight, because it both facilitated Dean’s descent (Cas keeps him on the level) and meant Cas didn’t have to take the brunt of Dean’s Mark-related dickishness. Aka, avoiding including Cas properly in any sort of sustained domestic abuse arc with Dean. In 10x18 they play happy families with Charlie, and it’s a fleeting GOOD thing with nice family dynamics. 10x21 laid it on thick that Sam was alone with someone who could swing around to violence and made it clear it was a domestic abuse metaphor between them. (Which, again, in Dean’s defence for THIS relationship, was a metaphor for one season, and I don’t think reflective on how he treats Sam normally, at all.)

As for Dean’s general behaviour, you have to forgive incident by incident on the assumption that Dean isn’t holding up a sustained campaign of abuse against Cas, but considers him an equal but who he often has GENUINE grievances against (and also that Cas is not a woobie and can take it - we may see him hurt a lot but he remains resilient). In season 6, Cas is shifty and won’t come to help them - you could argue Dean’s feeling entitled to that, but he’s upset because Cas is supposed to be a friend and his responses are underwhelming, and, importantly, Dean doesn’t feel like Cas is sharing when he WANTS to help. Dean can tell something’s up but Cas won’t even get into a real conversation with it, and wouldn’t have let Dean help anyway. So he’s pissed off at the start and gets MORE pissed off along the season, so he snaps at Cas and wheedles him to come help not because he feels like Cas is only good to help, but he’s fed up with Cas not coming, being weird, and being unhelpful, when they’re SUPPOSED to be friends.

I don’t even know how to explain how Dean acts towards Cas in season 7 if someone doesn’t get that the repercussions of Cas breaking Sam’s wall aren’t still clear in Dean’s mind, and he can’t talk to Cas about it because he’s never quite himself and ready to have the talk about these consequences. (I mean he sort of can at the end of the season but they’re aggressively not listening to each other even while trying to communicate) When Dean snaps at Cas, he’s frustrated, and angry and missing his friend, and upset on Sam’s behalf and it’s a mess, he’s not just yelling “no one cares that you’re broken” because he wants to hurt Cas. HE cares. He’s so fucked up about it that the entire end of the season rests on him reconciling with Cas, and so they need to show him unable to do that first… There’s more to it than just collecting a moment of Dean yelling at Cas or that bit where he throws the board game on the floor despite how it looks. They’re in the middle of the fight and Cas has as much of his part of it as Dean does, though he’s in a vulnerable state and Dean’s approaching him with anger, Cas knows Dean’s the injured party - this is the arc that starts with “I’ll find some way to redeem myself to you” - and it’s totally fucked up but this is how it plays out with Dean’s reactions to Cas’s avoidance and consuming guilt that won’t even let him face the problem head on until the very last moment. Dean approaches Cas gently, Cas finally makes a gesture to help and in this way their last conversation when they go collect Baby puts them back on EQUAL footing. And before that they were unequal but from both directions - Cas was broken/had no memory, but also Cas had the burden to make it right with Dean and he wasn’t making that move. He fixes Sam, which is the huge important step one, but after that he is “only playing sorry” and the argument goes BOTH ways with the need to reconcile, which means all the pissiness is fair game, NOT Dean being cruel to Cas and kicking him while he’s down…

I suppose I could keep on rationalising stuff they do forever but these are the examples I see the most when reading about it, and I just don’t feel in MY interpretation of it, that Dean has ANY cruelty to Cas, or even a sustained threat to him. That’s not to minimise that Cas took a LOT of beatings over recent times and ended up feeling depressed and alone and with PTSD and so on, but I read this as a carelessness that Dean desperately would not want to inflict on Cas if he knew and understood (and therefore could have reached out to him properly), and that at every opportunity when he even partially understands he reaches out and cares for Cas (like 8x08 and “talk to me” or many of the less dramatic heart to hearts where he tries to understand Cas or to reassure or comfort him about stuff, as well as generally attempting to apologise - I think he apologises 3 times for kicking Cas out the Bunker, though he can only truly repent after telling the whole truth, it ate him up and he WANTED it to not be this way and felt it was out of his control because from the last scene of 9x01 when Gadreel suddenly declares Sam can’t know, Dean immediately loses any control he thought he had over what happens next)…

Anyway, people are ALWAYS going to have opinions or still ship it but think some of my arguments don’t work and some of these examples were abusive but it won’t stop them shipping based on a more ideal version of the relationship, even divorcing from canon altogether and shipping the AU perfect version of the ship where it can always be happy and they never have the issues they do in canon. Some people will ship it because they LIKE that element of it, for one reason or another, and there will be people who write fic embracing really dark elements.

When it comes to reading what others have to say about ANYTHING you like, you have to decide for yourself how much it affects how you see it, and you have to remember people are coming at everything with their personal biases and feelings. You CAN argue Destiel is abusive - you can probably argue most ships are, especially ones with canon interaction, and especially LOTS of canon interaction because tropes like lying and manipulation (even gentle lies and manipulation) are rife in fiction. Writers make characters fight for drama, and once they do, someone’s going to find supporting the characters together is inherently problematic and awful.

If you make it this far in canon and HAVEN’T found the ship abusive in YOUR reading of it and based on YOUR emotional reactions to everything that happened on screen so far, then you are probably safe to keep shipping it at least on YOUR terms.

However, I would listen to what people say and make up your own mind just because if they’re bringing up things that are genuinely unsettling, you should probably work out if you support that or not, and if you ship at a safe remove (e.g. “the crypt scene etc were abusive and I don’t like it but generally I find the ship okay and they’ve made attempts to mend that and aren’t continuing in that behaviour so I can still ship them in canon but don’t want to see anything romanticising the bad bits” or “I find the things they’ve done in canon unsettling enough I would rather ship them in fanon and try to enjoy what they do in canon just for the good bits like when they hold hands” or whatever). As long as you are respectful to other people and understand WHY they see things the way they do, and don’t try and tell people who are genuinely hurt that things AREN’T hurtful.

(I’m not saying you would, but there are arguments in fandom I really don’t think we should be having as arguments, and this is one of them :P)

#Asks #abuse cw

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