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immaturityofthomasastruc · 3 years

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Gabriel Agreste: Interesting Villain, Horrible Character (400 Follower Special)

I'm honestly surprised more people didn't want me to talk about Gabriel, especially with how often I rag on how horrible of a person he is. But, three character analysis posts later, and we're going to talk about why the main villain of Miraculous Ladybug is a real letdown.

Gabriel Needs to give the Whining a Rest

The interesting thing is one of the few things I actually liked in Season 3 was Hawkmoth. His plans actually made sense (for the most part), and by playing the long game, he managed to turn Chloe against Ladybug and deprived her of several key allies. Granted, Season 4 immediately undid the latter, but I was still impressed by his strategy.

Generally, one of the better aspects of Gabriel as a character was just how over the top he was as Hawkmoth. Keith Silverstein is clearly giving it his all with his performance, and he is just so enjoyable to watch as a cartoonish supervillain.

And therein lies the first major problem with Gabriel as a character. While he is fun to watch as a simple supervillain, the show tries to give him more depth and unintentionally makes him worse.

In Season 2, when it was revealed that Gabriel was Hawkmoth, many fans speculated on what he needed the Miraculous for, until the Queen Bee Trilogy showed it was to save his possibly dead wife, Emilie. The idea of that is so the show can give more depth to its main villain, and I think it's an interesting idea in concept. After all, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

The problem is just how radically different Gabriel is normally compared to how he is as Hawkmoth. He always goes on about how he's “doing this for Emilie”, but it's hard to really sympathize with him when you consider he constantly gives evil monologues and evil laughs, really getting into the supervillain role. And let's not forget all of the “I'm going to wear Ladybug's skin as a suit” faces he loves to make.

Clearly this man is the picture of mental stability.

Gabriel's motivation for being Hawkmoth when compared to what he actually does as Hawkmoth is shady enough, but the thing is that the writers clearly want the audience to at least feel a little bad for him. They want to make the audience sympathize with him despite the way he acts with or without the mask. Without Miraculous Ladybug, he is routinely putting innocent lives in danger and never once shows regret for his actions. All he talks about is how “he's doing this for Emilie”, or that “he'll get their Miraculous soon”. There's no real reason to feel bad for him other than “because the script says so”.

Let's compare Gabriel to Malcolm Merlyn from Arrow. His big plan in the first season of the show is to create a machine that will cause an earthquake to destroy a crime-infested portion of Starling City, claiming to be trying to help everyone, but it's clear he is only doing it out of revenge for his wife getting killed by a criminal from that part of the city. In addition, throughout that season and future seasons, he always makes sure his plans lead to him benefiting in some way, showing he isn't just some noble man trying to achieve his goals with a less than noble method.

If we got some moments that showed that what Gabriel was doing was selfish, it would make him a more complex villain. But we don't get anything like that. What do we get instead? Well...

I Could Really Care Less About Emilie Agreste

We have known Gabriel's motivation has been to save his wife for a little over two years at this point, but at the same time, it's hard to believe that motivation because of how underdeveloped Emilie is as a character.

There have been a total of two lines in the entirety of the show that explain what happened to Emilie, and they're both vague as hell. One of them was from “Feast” that implied Emilie used the broken Peacock Miraculous.

Adrien: My mom used to have dizzy spells… just like Nathalie.

And the other that outright tells the audience what's happening to her in a clip show that most people will skip.

Nathalie: As I've watched Emilie falling deeper into an endless sleep, my sadness for her has deepened, too

That is literally all we get for an explanation, and nothing else. We have no idea of what she's like as a person or what her relationship with her family was like other than Gabriel and Adrien saying they miss her. Other than the way the narrative says she's important to Gabriel and Adrien, we don't really have a reason to care about her as a character. There have also been some lines that imply she went along with Gabriel's questionable parenting techniques, like how he was apparently only homeschooled as a kid (Origins) and never had a birthday party growing up (The Bubbler), so how do we even know if she's a good person? In fact, why not set up this question as a mystery to make the audience wonder if Gabriel has another reason to bring Emilie back?

It ultimately turns Emilie into a plot device and not a character that Gabriel and Adrien only bring up to make the audience feel bad for them, and meant to justify Gabriel's actions by saying that he's “doing this for his family”.

But hey, if he's doing this all for his family, surely Gabriel's redeeming traits come from his relationship with Adrien, right? Right?

As a Parent, Gabriel is Far From the Best

I've talked about this briefly before, but parenting in Miraculous Ladybug is written in such a black and white way, even by the standards of this show. Parents are portrayed in one of two ways. They're either amazing people who love and support their children unconditionally, or they're awful people who treat their own children like trash. And much like a lot of things in this show, there are times where the latter is treated like the former.

There are so many times where the narrative insists on making you see Gabriel as a troubled, but wellmeaning person who tries his best to be a good parent to Adrien, but it is far from the truth.

I'm not going to beat around the bush. Gabriel is a terrible parent. Like, he is awful at being a parent in so many ways, even before you find out he's Hawkmoth. In his first appearance, “The Bubbler”, he delegates getting Adrien a birthday present to Nathalie, his assistant. He literally can't be bothered to take time out of his schedule to get his own son a present for his birthday. And as the show goes on, he becomes more controlling and forbids Adrien from going out with his friends in other episodes (Captain Hardrock, Silencer). While this could be used to show Gabriel getting worse, it's never acknowledged in-universe, with Adrien continually defending his father essentially keeping him on house arrest.

“But IOTA!” You might say. “Gabriel has made efforts to bond with his son in some episodes.” While that might be true, most of those come right after his Akumas have almost gotten Adrien killed. He only hugged Adrien and made an attempt to learn more about him after Simon Says invaded their home, he only decided to watch that movie Emilie was in with Adrien after Gorizilla nearly dropped him off a building, and he only hugged Adrien again in public after he was turned into a gold statue by Style Queen.

In fact, let's talk about how Gabriel acts in the Queen Bee Trilogy. He actually decides to quit being Hawkmoth, but it's not because he realizes all the damage he's caused. Instead, he gave up because his “magnum opus”, a stronger than usual Akuma that only got the advantage on Ladybug ironically because of dumb luck, failed. Sure, he says he can't keep putting his son in danger, but he rarely ever acknowledges that he does so in the first place. When Riposte wanted to fight Adrien, Hawkmoth did nothing to stop her other than giving her a stern warning earlier on and nothing else. Where was this attitude earlier?

Hell, even then, he immediately goes back to being Hawkmoth as soon as he sees an opportunity, not even a day after his “mAgNuM oPuS” blew up in his face (because I guess Scarletmoth was just Plan B). If he made such a big deal about caring for his son, why didn't he try harder to spend time with him? Has he ever had doubts about what he's doing before? If Chloe didn't show up as Queen Bee, was he going to follow through on his promise and try to be a better father to Adrien instead of trying to get Ladybug and Cat Noir's Miraculous?

And yeah, the whole irony is that Gabriel is doing this for his family when he is unknowingly fighting his own son, which could lead to some interesting drama if done right. The idea of how Gabriel would react to his son being Cat Noir could really lead to some internal struggles for him to go through. But then we got “Cat Blanc”, which shows just how terrible of a character Gabriel is.

In an alternate timeline where he found out his son was Cat Noir, what does Gabriel do? Does he try to steal Adrien's Miraculous while he's sleeping? Does he reconsider his actions or realize he was endangering Adrien's life?

NOPE! He just decides to akumatize him all while emotionally tormenting him, before causing the end of the world.

This is honestly one of the most appalling things I've ever seen in any TV show, because it's basically an abusive father ordering his son to listen to him all while referencing his (kind of) dead mother to back up his point. And rather than use this to show how despicable Gabriel is, the episode decides to blame Marinette for this happening. Yes, according to the show, her present to Adrien caused several events to happen which caused Cat Blanc, but this logic makes no sense. It's like blaming the JFK assassination on the man who sold a gun to Lee Harvey Oswald, instead of, you know, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Not only was this episode yet another excuse to blame Marinette for something that wasn't her fault, it leads into the biggest problem I have with Gabriel as a character.

Sympathize with Gabriel? Surely, You Jest

After everything I've gone over regarding Gabriel as a character, after all the awful things I've talked about, are you really surprised that I don't feel bad for him at all?

Gabriel is just an awful character and a despicable human being, but the show just keeps wanting me to feel bad for him. It's just so hard to when you consider everything he's done has made him anything but sympathetic. I'm just saying, it's kind of hard to feel bad for someone who tries to start World War III with the only justification being “i'M dOiNg It FoR mY fAmIlY”, especially when he treats his family like crap.

The writers go out of their way to show how horrible Gabriel is as Hawkmoth/Shadowmoth, but they think because they throw in a few moments where he looks conflicted, we'll immediately feel bad for him. What makes so many people interested in seeing Chloe become a better person is that they can tell she's the victim of a troubled upbringing, and know that because she's only a teenager, she still has room to grow as a person, represented by having more honest moments of vulnerability. Gabriel is a grown man who once caused the apocalypse because of how terrible of a parent he is, and has even fewer sympathetic moments than Chloe does. Which one of these two is supposedly irredeemable? The answer may surprise you.

But the frustrating thing is that this kind of villain could have worked. Instead of making him this mustache-twirling psychopath, show how much Gabriel regrets what he has to do, but keeps pushing onward despite all the lives he's risking if it means that he can save his wife. Instead of making Gabriel like Lex Luthor, make him like Mr. Freeze, who is basic a better written version of him.

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But as it stands, there's a good reason why Gabriel gets little to no respect as a character in the Miraculous Ladybug fandom, as a villain, or as a father.

#immaturity of thomas astruc #iota #miraculous ladybug #miraculous ladybug salt #gabriel agreste #hawkmoth #hawk moth #shadowmoth #shadow moth #emilie agreste #adrien agreste #cat noir #chat noir #cat blanc #chat blanc #nathalie sancoeur #mayura #marinette dupain cheng #ladybug

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sage-nebula · 5 years

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I caught up on Miraculous Ladybug a couple days ago, so I thought I’d jot some thoughts down now that I’ve seen every episode and have a clearer scope on the series and characters as a whole.

First and foremost, let me just say that I think people take this show way too seriously. As I mentioned before, all I saw before I actually sat down to watch the second season for myself was hate and negativity. People bashed the show, the creators, and so on and so forth left and right. The thing is, sure, there are concepts in this show that could be taken deeper if this was meant to be a serious, deep show. But it’s pretty clear that’s not the case. Miraculous Ladybug is a bit like a ‘90s action cartoon, albeit one with a shoujo flavoring. It’s meant to have about as much depth as, say, Jackie Chan Adventures. The characters do learn lessons and develop, sure, but the creators don’t hold true and fast to those lessons because their main objective is to entertain via monster of the week battles and the occasional plot movement here or there. That’s not to say that there aren’t areas where the show could be improved, but it is to say that this show isn’t meant to be a sprawling epic and is instead just a shallow, fun show to watch and unwind with. But regardless of what it’s meant to be, I think that people in the Miraculous Ladybug fandom should remember that no one is holding a gun to their head, forcing them to watch. If the show isn’t to their tastes, if they’re not having fun, if all it does is make them angry and miserable, they should stop watching. That’s what I did with Voltron: Legendary Defender. Of course I still hear things about it that make me mad, but I’m far less devastated than I would be if I had to watch the nonsense unfold in front of me (not to mention that I stopped feeling stress leading up to new season releases because I stopped watching the show). This is a cartoon about teenage superheroes. You’re not obligated to watch. If it’s not fun for you, go do something else. Find a new series to get into. I promise you, your life will only improve if you do.

That said:

Aside from the above, probably the most unpopular opinion I have about this show is that Gabriel Agreste is hands down the most interesting character. It might be because I’m an adult rather than a teenager myself, but I’m not that interested in the high school romances the show has to offer (and when I am, I prefer rarepairs that will never happen, lol), but I am interested in Gabriel’s history, what led to him becoming Hawk Moth, and how he continues to deal with that in the present day. Romance-wise, I think that Gabriel/Nathalie has the potential to be the most interesting ship on the show. I think that episodes that focus on the Agreste family and their history are the most interesting ones. And while Gabriel is clearly a villain and has done some awful things, I’m interested to see if they’ll successfully make him a tragic villain, because I feel the groundwork has already been laid out for that to be the case.

I’m crossing every finger I have that when Emilie Agreste is awoken from her coma, it’s revealed that she’s ten times the villain Gabriel ever was. Part of this is because I heard it said somewhere that Mayura was Hawk Moth’s boss, and yet we know that’s not the case with Gabriel and Nathalie; part of it is also because I’ve seen so many “OMG I WANT EMILIE TO GET FULL CUSTODY OF ADRIEN!!11!!” posts that give off the vibe of “mothers could never be abusive” and that rubs me the wrong way. (Same with “Nathalie needs to adopt Adrien” posts; she clearly doesn’t care about him half as much as she cares about Gabriel, stop acting like she’s a better parent than Gabriel just because she has a surplus of estrogen.) We know that Adrien has fond memories of Emilie and that she took sweet pictures of him, but: a.) If she was nice to Adrien, that doesn’t mean she wasn’t a villain to everyone else, and b.) She could have easily been the type of abuser to guilt trip and manipulate rather than neglect like Gabriel, meaning that Adrien might not have recognized her abuse for what it was and might have instead felt that any time she was upset, it was his fault, and c.) It’s entirely possible that Gabriel would have taken the brunt of whatever abuse was doled out in order to protect Adrien, with Adrien being none the wiser Any one of those possibilities could be true, but the fact that people don’t even want to acknowledge that Emilie could be terrible to reeks of “she’s his mother, of course she wouldn’t abuse him,” which I just don’t vibe with at all. Gabriel is an abusive parent as well (though we can see that he does care about Adrien, though not enough to stop what he’s doing), but that doesn’t mean that Emilie is great. The fact that Gabriel’s love toward Emilie is so unhealthy speaks to the fact that there was more to her (and their relationship) than meets the eye. (And yes, Gabriel’s love for her is unhealthy, and severely detrimental to his quality of life. Since losing Emilie, Gabriel has: - Not gone outside even for a moment, instead staying locked up in his manor all day. It’s noted several times in both “Style Queen” and “Queen Wasp” that his appearance in the latter episode was the first time he’s shown his face in public since Emilie disappeared. - Cut off practically every relationship he has and socially isolated himself from everyone else, including those who would show him any sort of love or affection, to the point where it catches him off-guard when someone---even his own son---does. - Neglects any other kind of needs in his life outside of those that are either necessary to support his family (his work) or bringing back Emilie. We never see him having fun, spending time with others, or even taking time to relax and recuperate. - Become extremely paranoid and mistrustful of others, keeping secrets from just about everyone and casting a suspicious eye on anyone he comes across. He’s also paranoid about the safety of his one remaining family member. Particularly with regards to how Gabriel has isolated himself from practically everyone save Emilie, I would argue that Gabriel’s abuse and neglect of Adrien is continuing a cycle from what Gabriel himself has experienced as a result of Emilie’s “disappearance,” and possibly even beforehand. Which of course DOES NOT excuse what he does to Adrien, but it might explain it. All in all, the relationship we see between Gabriel and Nathalie is far healthier than what we’ve been given of Gabriel and Emilie, and I’m curious to see if this continues in later episodes.)

I love Luka, and I really hope that we see more of him. Additional thoughts:

Upon watching “Captain Hardrock,” I got the vibe that Luka might be on the autism spectrum somewhere. I hesitate to say this because the last time I made an autistic headcanon I was screamed at for it and deemed a horrible person, but particularly with how Luka said that it’s easier for him to communicate through music rather through words, how he often looks down at his guitar instead of right at people (though he does make eye contact sometimes), how he tried to joke around with Marinette but ended up hurting her feelings and looked genuinely panicked / upset that he did so . . . I don’t know, I just kind of got that vibe from him. Like maybe he’s on the autism spectrum and music is his special interest, particularly because it’s a lot easier for him to convey what he’s feeling / thinking through music rather than through words, particularly without upsetting other people (because most people don’t get angry or upset when they hear music, whereas they might with his words). I think it’s be really neat to have the cool, suave character on the autism spectrum, anyway.

I don’t understand why people say Luka has no personality when he has about as much personality as any other character on the show, particularly the classmates. How does Luka have less personality than Nathaniel, or Rose, or Max? I think the real reason why people want to say Luka is “cardboard” and therefore a bad character is because he “threatens the love square,” which is nonsense. All Luka is doing is living his best life. (And the same goes for Kagami, tbh.) Let him live.

On that note, though, I prefer Luka/Marinette to Marinette/Adrien at this point. Marinette/Adrien has had some really sweet moments as well, and I still ship it (and know it’s endgame anyway), but at the moment the way Adrien behaves when he’s Chat makes him feel like he has a Nice Guy complex toward Ladybug, and I’m not here for that. “Glaciator” was one thing, but how he behaved in “Frozer” was unacceptable. I don’t hate the ship, but I much prefer Luka/Marinette, particularly since Luka has genuine interest from Marinette and has never been afraid to treat her like a princess, but at the same time will encourage her to go be happy when he realizes she has stronger feelings for someone else.

I wish that Luka would get the Dog Miraculous instead of the Snake Miraculous, but at least he’s getting one regardless, I guess.

I do think it’s an issue that all of Marinette’s love rivals are antagonistic in some way or another. Chloe is . . . Chloe, Lila is a compulsive liar who’s addicted to evil butterflies, and Kagami . . . honestly didn’t do a single thing wrong, but she was still characterized as being somewhat forward and antagonistic rather than sweet and perfectly nice like Adrien’s love rivals. I feel that this show has a bit of an issue with pitting girls against each other over a boy, and since Adrien’s not even that great of a boy (I like him fine, but he’s honestly not worth ladies fighting over), it rubs me the wrong way and I hope that, in season three, Marinette and Kagami can become friends.

Rose’s English voice (in season two, at least) is literally the worst thing I’ve ever had the misfortune of hearing. She sounds like a chipmunk that sucked helium. No teenage girl actually sounds like that, what in the honest hell.

For that matter, Juleka’s English VA had a real bad day in “Zombiezou.” I’ve never heard more emotionless voice acting in my entire life, and for a zombie apocalypse parody episode, that’s a real issue.

For the most part I think that most of the “omg why can’t they recognize each other!!1!!!!111″ nonsense that I’ve seen around the fandom is just that, nonsense, because being unable to see through a paper-thin disguise is a superhero staple, and this show has even gone the extra mile to explain it’s the magic of the suits protecting their identities. That said, there have been a couple instances where I felt like Adrien and Marinette should have gotten suspicious or had questions, and most notably in “Frightengale.” Both of them had great reasons for not wanting to put on the Chat Noir and Ladybug masks, but what they both failed to consider or question is why the other person had such an issue. Like, Adrien knows that he doesn’t want to put on the mask because he’s the real Chat Noir and people will recognize him. But didn’t it strike him as odd that Marinette had similar objections to putting on the Ladybug mask? And the same is true in reverse. Marinette knew why she didn’t want to dress up as Ladybug for the video, but didn’t she ever wonder why Adrien was reluctant? I guess they were both too wrapped up in their own drama to consider it, which makes sense if you consider they’re teenagers, but it’s still something you’d think they’d ponder over later.

On that note, Plagg and Tikki are the real heroes for having to put up with this love square nonsense in-universe. Pour one out for them.

Adrien being a Nice Guy while he’s Chat Noir is an issue, but I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with what he said in “Malediktator” or “Chameleon”, and here’s why:

In “Malediktator”, Adrien was upset that the only person who provided him any company or friendship was leaving the country for an indefinite amount of time because she was upset, and he never even got to say goodbye to her. Note that (at least in the English version), Adrien never says that Marinette or the others can’t celebrate; he just says that he, personally, finds Chloe leaving to be awful, and objects to Marinette calling Chloe useless (which is a reasonable thing to object to, because in honesty saying someone is useless is pretty harsh and terrible). He then goes and sits quietly by himself, waiting for the party to be over. People have grown angry with him for this because Marinette was bullied by Chloe for years and they think that he should see her side of things, but the fact of the matter is that the people who make those claims aren’t seeing Adrien’s side of things, which Marinette herself realized when he left to go sit by himself. Here’s the thing: Neither Marinette nor Adrien were in the wrong. Marinette is perfectly entitled to be ecstatic that her bully is leaving forever, particularly since she’s Ladybug and said bully akumatizes people all the time and this will make less work for her. She wasn’t doing anything wrong by celebrating Chloe leaving, although again, saying that someone is useless is crossing a line (particularly since, as we find out later in the episode, Chloe already believes she’s useless because of her mother’s emotional abuse). Marinette didn’t do anything wrong. But Adrien is also perfectly entitled to be upset that his childhood friend---the only person who gave him companionship during his incarceration in his own home---is leaving on a bad note. If Chloe was leaving perfectly happily, I think he’d feel differently. He’d be happy for her. But he’s seen a side of Chloe that no one else has, and moreover, Adrien tends to be rather compassionate for other people’s struggles (something Kagami calls him out on). It’s perfectly understandable that he’s upset that his oldest friend is leaving on a bad note, and that he didn’t get to say goodbye to her besides. Moreover, since it was a shock to him, it’s natural that he didn’t realize how his words might have sounded to one of Chloe’s victims, especially since Marinette herself didn’t bring up the fact that Chloe had bullied her, but instead just said Chloe was awful and useless (which, as her friend, Adrien naturally rankled against). This isn’t a situation of one being right and the other being wrong. This is a situation of two people coming at a situation from different perspectives, and feeling differently as a result.

As for “Chameleon,” as I believe I’ve explained elsewhere, Adrien was looking at the situation from the perspective of Chat Noir. If they upset Lila, she’s going to get akumatized again. This is something he knows for a fact, because it has happened multiple times now (at least twice that he knows of). Akumatizing Lila over and over again isn’t going to accomplish anything meaningful. All it’s going to do is create more work for Chat Noir and Ladybug, which Adrien wants to avoid. Adrien is looking at the bigger picture, which is hoping that perhaps Lila can become a better person, and if not, it’s better to pick your battles so that you can ultimately win the war rather than picking a fight every other day. He wasn’t wrong, and I strongly feel that people who insist he was are those that are projecting onto Marinette and just want to live through her as she stomps her bullies into the dirt.

Which, on that note, I find it really funny how people who claim to hate Chloe are the same people that like fan content where Marinette is being “petty” and “salty” and no better than Chloe herself. I agree that Marinette’s friends (sans Adrien) didn’t have her back in “Chameleon,” and that Alya’s behavior was especially out of character (and kind of funny at the end, because . . . yes, Alya, we do think you’d let your best friend sit alone, because you already did that, lol), but to imagine that Marinette Dupain-Cheng would suddenly take every single opportunity to insult and tear them down is completely missing the point of who Marinette is and why she’s a better person than people like Chloe (at present) and Lila. Again, I can only imagine this is self-projection of the “I wish I had been able to do this” variety, but I still find it really ironic that the people who hate Chloe and Lila make Marinette act almost exactly like them. (Also, it says something if you think Alya being a jerk once makes it all right for Marinette to treat her like dirt. For two seasons Alya was the best best friend someone could ask for. She made a mistake in one single episode, and you think Marinette should turn on her? Should say she’s no longer worthy of the Fox Miraculous? Please. That’s not how relationships work. Sometimes there are bumps and low points, but you communicate, work through, and apologize when you make mistakes. No one is perfect, Alya included.)

The first time Gabriel akumatized the baby it was funny because it was clearly an accident and he was just working with what he had (and it was a struggle). The second time I suppose it just happened because of all the akuma that were out at the time. But why was the baby akumatized again in “Weredad”? What purpose did that serve? What were you doing, Gabriel? Why this, again? Part of me feels like it was done because the writers needed a giant akuma, but like . . . there have been others . . . why the baby when he didn’t even want to akumatize the baby in the first place, I just . . . why.

Chloe’s transformation sequence has a similar grace to it that Adrien’s does (and tbh I like it a little more, especially with the toe tap and whatnot), and it makes me think that she’s secretly as much of a weeb as he is and they probably watched Sailor Moon together.

I like the unique transformation phrases in the English dub, but I wish that there was a bit more variety. Three out of five are “on/off” variants, and I like it when they’re a bit more creative like “claws in/out” or “let’s pounce.” Hopefully the transformations for future Miraculouses will be a bit more creative.

There are probably other thoughts but this is all I have for right now. Curious about the upcoming episodes and I’m surprised we got season three so soon, but also I imagine the release schedule might not be consistent, so there’s that, too. In any case, this is a cute and fun show so long as you don’t take it too seriously. I’m enjoying it, at least, and as far as I’m concerned that’s all that matters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#/#//#///#////#/////#miraculous ladybug

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