With all the teases about Lian as a little kid, like how she was featured in the Infinite Frontier Secret Files story and the variant cover for Flash, it’s clear that the whole “Shoes” thing was a very last second development...
Or the team working on Catwoman hadn’t felt the need to tell everyone else until the other comics started featuring the nods about Lian which seems very unprofessional and was also one of the biggest problems with the New 52.
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Another character Jade could be connected to is Dinah. That’s the only other character outside of Roy and Lian I believe would work for Jade development-wise. And I agree, a lot of her connections with characters outside of those two are focused on her actions rather than her character, which hasn’t done her any good (*cough* Deathstroke *cough*)
YES YES EXACTLY
I was trying to figure out how to articulate that earlier but I had just woken up and hadn’t had caffeine yet.
And not to keep pulling Jade further into the Arrowfam but I think that she and Mia could have a lot of really cool things together and that maybe Mia could help her funnel her anger and hurt into doing good and preventing others from feeling the same hurt. Obviously Dinah wouldn’t let Mia near Jade until she was sure of her, but it would make for some really cool storytelling and a further integration of Jade into a family unit (and the Arrows work so well for bringing her in because of the rapport they have with other characters that are mercs- I think she’d feel less judged and more like she could be accepted)
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Don’t you think that DC needs to start connecting Jade to other characters besides Roy and Lian?
Yeah of course, but a big part of Jade’s character is that she doesn’t trust and open up, and Roy is the big exception to that. And part of the reason that she’s still so connected to Roy and Jade is that Roy is focusing on her and not necessarily because she’s the one establishing contact.
I think DC could do a lot of cool things with Jade finding out that her son isn’t dead. But again, Jade doesn’t really trust anyone but Roy, she has no reason to. She’s in a line of work where she and others are constantly backstabbing each other in team ups. And even when she’s with Catman and having his kid, she doesn’t choose Catman because she loves him or because she trusts him, she chooses him for physical qualities- and then steps back to raise Tommy on her own until he’s kidnapped and she’s told he’s dead (which again, her reaction to makes no sense for her when compared against her reaction to Lian’s death, but anyway).
It can’t be understated too that family and love are big themes for Jade’s story. Her own family is terrible, things get better with her adopted father Weng Chan, but then she’s married as a teenager to an assassin that she then kills. The Catman thing is really about Jade wanting to be a mother and have another child and essentially choosing a sperm donor. Other villains want to use her to produce heirs for their weird cults. Her narrative is about healing from family trauma and her desire to make sure Lian doesn’t suffer for her choices. Unless we get more plot lines about her brothers we’re sort of limited to Roy, Lian, and Tommy for familial vehicles through which her character can advance, and part of her character is prioritizing her children’s safety because she knows what it’s like to be unsafe as a child.
Jade already has plot lines that don’t involve Roy and Lian. But those plots are more about her actions than about her character because she doesn’t work with people she can trust. And I don’t truly think that she’d be able to start opening up and trusting others to make those strong connections with other characters unless she were to figure out who she is without Cheshire and without potentially even putting away her mantle.
And it should be noted, I’m completely open to the idea of Jade finding someone else that she can trust or maybe even love aside from Roy Harper. But I do think that Roy’s identity struggles could give him some good insight into how to help Jade through discovering who she is without Cheshire.
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[Image ID: a text block that says “What is your opinion on Cheshire? In modern comics, what would you like her relationship with Lian to look like?”]
I love Jade as a character. I think she's really compelling and has a lot of room for growth that goes underutilized. I was gonna include comic panels, but I got lazy, and was just looking forward to ranting so here we go.
I touched on this a little bit here in my answer to my thoughts on DC possibly bringing back Roy/Jade- but something I feel gets ignored or forgotten a lot is just... how traumatic Jade's childhood was. Jade's character was introduced in 1983, the Vietnam war had just ended in 1975, and while French forces officially pulled out of Vietnam in 1954 this does not mean that all the French left. We see this time and again with occupying forces, once the occupation officially ends on paper, there are always those who stay behind. For these reasons I think it's very telling that Jade's parents are a Frenchman and a Vietnamese woman (yes I know that in Birds of Prey: Sensei and Student it was revealed that her biological father is actually a US Senator, but the point still very much stands), there is a reason why Jade chooses to go by her mother's name, Nguyen, as opposed to her "father's", Chaumont. It's very telling that Jade's childhood was not a happy one, and that it was not a happy one even before she was sold into slavery. We don't get many details about her time enslaved, but we do know that the trauma drove her "insane" and that she became free by killing her master. She was then informally adopted by a freedom fighter named Weng Chan, and then at only 16 years old was married to Kruen Musenda (Spitting Cobra) who taught her his poisonous craft- and she killed him two years later. That's a lot to unpack. Jade takes on the mantle of Cheshire not because it's what she wants to be, but because it's what she's had to become, and it's what she's had to embrace being.
And this trauma in no way absolves her of her sins. She's a terrorist, she's an assassin, she's done horrible things. But she's also experienced terrible things- her character is really set up in such a way that her narrative continues to show these little peeks of vulnerability, ideas of what Jade could be without Cheshire, of a Jade that wants to heal from what was done to her and leave the violence and the pain behind. There is room in her story for growth, and so many of these opportunities for growth come when she lets herself be seen by others instead of disappearing like the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland. Her story is one of finding freedom, and she constantly has to fight for it, but in her bid for freedom she becomes something that others use (in Titans (Volume 2) #34 Drago wants to use her to produce an heir). Jade's story is about having and finding freedom, but her choices often put her in a position where she isn't free, and where she no longer has a choice.
This gets me every time, because it's a glimpse into Jade's mind that we don't often get this clearly, we're not having to read between the lines to see what Jade thinks or feels for once- and here Jade is behind bars and in captivity, and she's thinking of her family- of her time spent loving Roy Harper and with her daughter. I choose to interpret this as being what Jade would choose if she could- but a big part of her character is that she doesn't really know who she is without Cheshire, I think it would be really interesting to give her the chance to explore that on the page more.
I'm really tired of just seeing posts about her that are like "love my murder wife" or "sexy assassin babe" or like.... literally nothing about her as a character and just focusing on the fact that she's hot. Which she is, but there's a lot more to her character than that, and I think it does her a disservice to only focus on her being a sexy evil lady. I also think that newer comics have strayed away from her backstory which I don't really like, because there are elements of it that you can keep and easily modernize, and parts of it that you can let go of without taking too much away from what makes her Jade. (Also Young Justice really did her dirty and I'm gonna bitch about that forever).
But onto the second part of this question. What would I want Jade's relationship with Lian to look like? I do like the physically distant but loving thing Jade has going on with Lian, and with modern comics that have modern communication options it would be significantly easier for Jade to keep in contact with Lian from a distance, and I think there's a lot that could be done there. And I've mentioned this also in this response which I've also linked above, that I think Lian being allowed and able to see the good in Jade is very important. I think a big part of what I would like to see, especially from a narrative perspective, is that Lian will receive unfounded judgement because of who her mother is and because she loves her mother, and part of overcoming that I think would have to include Lian questioning Jade about why she became Cheshire and learning that story would be a really good character moment. I don't personally think that Jade (or Roy) would really want Lian learning the details of Jade's trauma until he's in her late teens and can really be at an age where she can understand and process it. But, and again this is from a story telling perspective, I think it would be really poetic and fitting if Lian were to take on the mantle of Cheshire, but as a hero- to take the manifestation of her mother's hurt and rage and to take it on out of love instead, and to use it to prove others wrong, and to showcase lessons she learned from her mother. Lian exists because Jade fell in love, and because Jade is someone a JLA member was able to fall in love with, and for her to combine her father's fighting style with her mother's name and mantle would be a touching and poetic way to sort of showcase their relationship I think. Because Lian and Jade's relationship really is about love- and it's about how love is hard, and fraught, and full of sacrifice.
Lian and Jade shouldn't have an easy relationship. Lian needs to see the good and the bad in her mother, but from what we've seen on Lian's character, and of the way Roy and Jade interact and their relationship, there will hopefully be attempts at understanding motivations without using that as a way to excuse actions. Lian should be allowed to be angry at her mother for putting her in this position, and for doing horrible things, while also acknowledging that her mother loves her and is good to her and that she loves her mother in return. These emotions can coexist and they make for great story telling, and I really think that if Jade won't find out who she is without Cheshire for herself that she would do it for Lian.
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Alright. I just finished season 2 of young justice and I’m gonna talk about it. For those who have no clue what I’m talking about, it’s a cartoon on HBO Max about the DC superhereos “sidekicks”. I recommend it if there’s anyone who likes superhero stuff and cartoons. It’s amazing.
*Spoilers for season 1 and 2 of young justice ahead*
Okay, at first I was a bit jarred by the five year time jump. But I really started to love the new characters. Blue Beetle and Impulse are my entire life now and I would do anything for them. I was very pleased to find that I wasn’t the only one who shipped them. Really loved Wondergirl too. She was sure trying her best and I respect that as a fellow klutz. Beastboy was great too. Loved the brother-sister relationship between him and Miss Martian. Adorable. I could really live without La’gaan. He’s just irritating. Sorry if there are any La’gaan stans but I really don’t like him. Also, I ship Connor and Megan and La’gaan is taking that away from me.
One small issue I had with this season is the amount of subplots going on at the same time. We had the whole ‘Impulse is scared of Blue Beetle taking over the world’ and then ‘Aqualad is a spy’ and then ‘Reach nonsense’ and plenty more and sometimes I feel like they jumped between plots pretty quickly. They would introduce a conflict in one episode and then focus on a different one completely the next episode. Pretty much everything was wrapped up at the end though so I can’t complain too much. That’s just a small critique I had.
I love how much Connor has grown! My baby is so mature now! And the fact that Wolf is an actual part of the team! I love that. Connor is a legend and I can’t help but stan. Also I have mad respect for Kaldur. What an absolute legend. My man has the love of his life die and finds out his real father is manta and STILL decides to do the right thing. He’s amazing. Not to mention he just immediately forgives Megan for frying his brain and risking him and Artemis almost losing their cover? He’s too good for us. Also some respect to be shown for Dick who has to put up with the team’s shit all the time. He’s gets the break he deserves <3
Alright there’s no way they just killed off my favorite boy KF there in the LAST EPISODE. You CANNOT do that to me. He’s gotta come back. The scarab said that he would “Cease” and he didn’t seem to actually die? He just kinda vanished? So maybe there’s some kind of a loop hole there. I think I saw some kind of post saying that the speed force doesn’t exist in this universe? Correct me if I’m wrong please but I don’t think it has to do with him and the speed force. But yeah there’s no way that Wally is actually dead. It’s just occurred to me that I could be in denial but I will deny that. I don’t think they faked his death like they did with Artemis but I don’t think he’s dead and we better get him back in season 3.
In season 3 I hope we get more info on Kidflash cus there’s NO WAY he’s dead. I’m pretty sure we get more info on Jaime’s family which is nice. Hope we get to see little Lian grow up. She’s adorable and I hope Jade and Roy(the clone) are the good parents she deserves. Jade seems great but I’m a bit worried about Roy. I hope we get to see what Arsenal’s up to and the rest of the Meta-Human team. Asami is adorable and she deserves the best. Also Tye deserves better! Tye better get all of the love and happiness he deserves in season 3 or I will commit a crime(for legal reasons this is a joke). And I’m definitely not just saying this because I relate way too much to his character haha... :(. And I know bluepulse isn’t canon but we better at least get more friendship content that I can misinterpret as relationship content. Also petition for Vandal Savage and G. Gordon to stfu. No one likes you :(
Those are my jumbled thoughts after finishing season 2. Please don’t spoil season 3. It’ll probably be a little while until I finish it because I’m watching it with my dad and he doesn’t like binging entire seasons on shows in one night and I’m not going to be living with him most of the time as of this week. But I’m really looking forward to watching it and I love this show more than anything. I’m very excited to be able to look at Young Justice content without worrying about accidentally spoiling it for myself :(
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I've read Roy Harper's Wikipedia before (I sometimes do that to help me understand a character that I haven't read or their past from comics I haven't read. So since I haven't read many comics from pre new 52 I learned a lot about Roy from it)
In the last part before new 52. From 2011 just before the switch it said there was a comic called convergence (I'm not fact checking with wiki).
In it Roy was living in Gotham and like working with an orphanage to help kids (while thinking of Lian). And a demon tried to make a deal with him to get Lian back. Roy outsmarted the Demon and got Lian back.
So what if that was one of the last things that happened before new52.
And to my knowledge Rebirth is saying something like the rewrite was a flash thing and that most if not all comics are currently canon and the reason people forgot things is a flash thing.
So now instead of the thing with Jade leaving Lian in Gotham what if the rewrite left 5 year old Lian in Gotham and foster care found her and took her in.
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jade and blesnya @ paco rabanne fw21
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jade and ashley @ paco rabanne fw21
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💚 Titans #30
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this poor kid goes through so much hell omg
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wish dc would give cheshire a solo series but at the same time i dont trust them with it
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Y’all I can’t wait to see Roy react to Teen Titans Academy-
Roy: You guys named a school after me?
Dick: Well yeah, we thought you were still dead-
Roy: Can I meet the students?
Donna: Of course
Kori: There right through there
Roy: *walks in* Wow, alright kids! My names Roy Harper, and this is my school, I can’t believe it!
Kids: *whispering about how the hell he’s alive*
Roy: My daughter and wife are outside and we’re gonna met them there, and the three of us are gonna teach today’s lesson!
Gar: Wait Lian’s here?
Rae: And Cheshire?!
Victor: Oh no, wait-
Roy: And btw my wife’s a assassin and my daughter’s a thief, so we might get into some trouble today
The entire academy: YAY! *the entire academy runs outside*
Dick, Donna, Cy, BB, Rae, Kori: NO!
Red X: Yikes, this should be good! *grabs popcorn*
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CHESHIRE / JADE NGUYEN ICONS
💚fav/rt if you are going to use 💚
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*Rose is babysitting Lian*
Rose: “I have to go to the store and get a few things. Dad your in charge please for the love of god dont let me see you on the fucking news.”
Rose *turning around*: “okay lian be good for me ok and when i get back we can watch a movie ok?”
*Rose turning back to face Slade* : “I’m watching you and dont think for a second i wont call jason or kori over here”
Slade: “please rose i know what im doing. We”ll be fine ive did this before. Kinda.”
Rose: “okay fine be good i gotta go”
Slade: “okay li- Lian?!?!”
*Slade running down the hall*: “LIAN?!?!?”
*Slade runs into his office where his suit and weapons are*
*Lian holding his sword*: “oooooooo whats this?”
*Slade picking lian up and taking his sword away from her*: “okay rules, no touching anything thats sharp okay???? Also this room is off limits ok!?!?!”
Lian: “okie dokie” *skips away*
*Slade running his hand over his face*: “this is going to be harder than I thought”
2 hours later
*Lian playing with some toys*: “uncle ollie can be stupid sometimes and grandpa batman is always angry”
Slade huffing : “tell me about it”
Lian: “everyone doesnt like auntie rose because of what she does and because your her dad. Just like they dont like mama.”
*Lian looking down*: “At least you dont think im going to grow up and hurt people”
Slade: “who the hell thinks that!?!?!?! YOUR A KID”
Lian: “they act like i cant hear them but i can. I heard them talk about daddy too and mama. Uncle jaybird says to ignore them but thats hard.”
Slade: “who your parents are has nothing to do with who you become. Your a good kid lian. Your not like us. Your better. Dont listen to them. They’re probably just jealous they dont have cool aunt and uncles like you do”
*Lian giggling*: “hehe no they dont. They are just mad they dont have a cool grandpa like you”
Slade.exe stops working
*Slade smiling but also maybe crying a little*: “yeah they dont. Wanna go get some ice cream kid?”
Lian: “YEAH AND WE CAN TAKE BAD GUYS DOWN TOO”
*Slade nodding his head in agreement* : “yeah we can take bad guys down too”
A few hours later
*Rose walking thru the hallways when she hears slade singing and stops to look into her room*
*Slade humming an old lullaby*
*Lian drifting off to sleep*
Rose: “and here i thought you were going to call me panicing”
Slade: “i almost did but i think i got the hang of it”
Slade: “shes a good kid.”
Rose: “yeah she is. I just wish roy was here. I know what it feels like to have one dead parent and one incompetent parent. No offense but still”
Slade: “yeah I understand. But she isnt alone. Shes got all of you guys to take care of her. She has a good family. She has you.”
Rose: “and you”
*Slade chuckling*: “everyday you remind me more and more of your mother. I might have messed up at being a parent but she didnt.”
Rose: “you werent all that bad. I mean look at you. Lian trust you. Something she doesnt give out willingly.”
*Rose smiling*: “your a good grandpa”
Slade: “i try my best”
*Rose sighing*: “thanks for this. she needed something to cheer her up”
Slade: “well ice cream has always worked for me when i get down. I honestly didnt do much.”
Rose: “you know thats not what i mean. Thank you for making sure that she knows shes good. I know what it feels like for people to talk behind your back about you when your parent isn’t exactly your average textbook good guy”
Slade: “i tried my best. But seriously you ever find who was saying shit tell me. No one is going to talk about her. Not if im still breathing.”
Rose: “dont worry i will. Now come on i have groceries to put up.”
Slade: “ill make dinner”
Rose: “no uncle billy is coming over and hes cooking. He doesnt trust you since last time”
Slade: “oh come on that was one mistake.”
Rose: “yes one mistake that ended with me having to buy a new oven”
Slade: “ok ok ill keep my hands away from be oven”
*Lian suddenly appearing in the living room*: “i cant sleep. I want to watch a movie now”
*Rose slowly turning towards slade*: “when did you give her ice cream”
*Slade nervously turning to face rose*: “maybe right before she was supposed to go to bed”
Rose: “damnit dad”
Lian: “ooooo A DOLLOR IN THE SWEAR JAR”
Rose: “and who did you get that from?”
Lian smiling: “grandpa alfie”
Slade and rose: “of course you did”
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Little Mix ft Saweetie
Behind The Scenes
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genuinely loved your response to the roy/jade pairing question and i like how you saw it from a storytelling and character perspective. i’ll admit; they are my favorite ship. that being said i think there’s something special about roy and jade developing a healthy divorced parents relationship because that’s really what they are. endgame right now means one of them compromising and that person would have to be jade, who isn’t ready to give up cheshire (side note: that would make for an interesting story about her figuring out who she is without cheshire in the picture). there’s a way to create that divorced parents dynamic and keep their feelings for each other in play but also show that they understand that the priority is lian, not their relationship.
i know roy/jade lost a lot of its nuance with the lack of lian and their 1D portrayal in the reboots. personally i believe writers forget that jade does not go out of her way to harm roy nor does she enjoy doing so. as for pre-52, their relationship is genuinely at its worst when they have roy doing everything in his power to KEEP lian away from her mother (*cough* the titans (1999) *cough*).
overall i pretty much agree with what you said. if i’m being honest, i would read a book about them figuring all of this out and discussing it in a heartbeat.
Thank you! I have a lot of thoughts about Jade and Roy individually and together and I feel like their relationship deserves to be talked about more. But onto your points, yes exactly! They’ve lost so much nuance and tbh Young Justice certainly didn’t do any favors to Jade to show what she’s been through. And even Pre-N52 the times that Roy is doing everything in his power to keep Lian from Jade didn’t feel right for their dynamic- especially when we see in Batman + Arsenal (1996) that Roy is willing to enlist help to make sure that Jade’s okay. And as for Jade, I feel like writers forgot a lot about her, let alone what her relationship with Roy was actually like.
Roy and Jade trying to navigate still loving each other while knowing that they won’t make the other compromise and thus that if they get back together it won’t last, and putting Lian first and all the angst that comes with that would make some great storytelling.
I also think that a book of Jade trying to figure out who she is without Cheshire and realizing that the only person who might know and be able to help her see it too is Roy, would be a fantastic way to start their relationship back up if DC is gonna go that route.
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what are your thoughts on DC possibly returning to roy/jade?
I love Roy/Jade as pairing but I don’t think they’re right for each other as an endgame ship. I think they really have something special and that the connection and passion they have is very real and the way that Roy makes sure that Lian gets to see the good in her mother and experience her mother’s love is very special to me, because even if he’s seen the worst in Jade and there are some things (tbh a lot of things) that they’ll never agree on that he knows that she loves their daughter and that Lian deserves to know that love.
I also think that there’s something really special about the fact that Roy and Jade clearly opened up to each other, that Jade let herself trust him so completely is something really beautiful. Jade’s father was a Frenchman and her mother was a Vietnamese woman, and her childhood was already unhappy before she was sold into slavery as a child- her only way out was to kill the man who owned her, and the trauma ate away at her, for her to open up about her experiences and her past and to learn to trust someone who was a rival of hers is a lot. And Jade got to see Roy as he was growing into himself and learning to keep a cap on his anger issues and to move past the hurt and the anger and frustration.
I have no doubts that they loved and maybe even still love each other in some aspect- and I think that if handled well and written well it could be a really great thing to bring back, and it would be great to see these two deal with the fact that they’re still attracted to each other and that the foundation of that love is still there and that they still care for each other, and it would make for great story telling and some nuanced narratives about loving someone without trying to change them and reconciling with the fact that you and the person you love are on opposite sides of a conflict. I’m worried that if written poorly it will demonize Jade and strip away all of the nuance from her character and just leave her as this sexy assassin lady stereotype when she’s so much more than that, and I worry too that if written poorly it would strip away some of Roy’s big/volatile emotions, the ones he’s not as good at containing, and that there could be a tendency to play down his skill set to make him look weak compared to Jade - and while there’s nothing wrong with her being a badass I’ve personally always read them as closer to equals.
Basically like I said above I love the pairing but as the character currently sit I don’t see it as an endgame ship. It and the characters in it have so much potential for growth though that if DC brings it back and does it well I’m gonna be very interested to see where it goes.
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